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Deleting Redirects that are blocking accepts

I think that this is primarily a request to User:Primefac for instruction or clarification. I think that there is still a lot of confusion, mainly among non-admins, but even also among admins, about when a redirect that is blocking acceptance of a draft can be deleted. There are at least two different situations:

• A. The redirect is to another article, but the history is there was previously an article on the subject, which was then cut down to a redirect, a process known as BLAR for Blank and Redirect. If so, the reviewer should check whether the BLAR was done unilaterally, after talk page discussion, or after AFD. My thinking had been that this calls for a page swap, except that if the previous article was redirected by AFD consensus, the redirect should probably be kept (so the draft should be declined).
• B. The redirect is to a related article, and has never been anything but a redirect. My thinking had been that this is what {{db-afc-move}} is for.

Am I completely off the mark? I think I encountered a mistake by an admin recently when I tagged a redirect for {{db-afc-move}} and the admin declined it because the redirect had been there since 2004. I wound up doing a page swap, but I think that the consensus was that the admin made a good-faith mistake in declining the G6. By the way, the redirect was from the name of a fictional place to the show that is set in the place, so they are related articles.

Also, as we can see above, there is uncertainty as to when a reviewer can G6 a redirect that has a previous article.

I think that some of us can benefit from explanation. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:44, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I think the question should be clear and bold: Does the redirect have creative content behind it? If yes, it should be ineligible for G6 and any sub-flavour of G6 like db-afc-move. The history needs to be preserved, or deleted only with care for good reason. If there is no creative content in the history, then G6 away. The question is of creative content, attribution-worthy content, and this does not include the age of the redirect. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:18, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

I gave a longer reply above, but "having creative content" is not the same as "needs to be kept for attribution". In Robert's situation A it does not sound like the content needs to be kept for attribution purposes, so it can be deleted as "deleting a redirect that is holding up a page move". Primefac (talk) 08:22, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. So, first, history merge is only needed and should only be requested when there has been a copy-paste, and copy-paste is something that "should not" be done, and happens either through good-faith error, or to try to gain credit for something. Second, it appears that both User:SmokeyJoe and I were mistaken, and we both thought that creative content should be preserved. The answer seems to be that creative content should only be preserved in the history if it is relevant to the content of the article. So the history of a previous version of an article is not required if the previous version of the article is in the bit bucket. Is that sort of correct? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:25, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with Primefac on Example 3. While I agree that it is nit required for attribution, it is inconsistent with deletion policy, including CSD, to delete creative content behind the redirect without a deletion discussion. G6 is misused to delete creative content. SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank u Ozzy1145 (talk) 11:20, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

db-afc-move info in template

Tracked in github.com
Issue #243

Could information on what a db-afc-move is and perhaps a bit on how to use it show up in the case that the approval is stopped due to the existance of a mainspace page? And would it be possible for the script to be smart enough to tell whether the mainspace page that it is conflicting with is a redirect (in which case db-afc-move *might* be appropriate) or not.Naraht (talk) 12:43, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Great idea. Ticket created. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:20, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

AFCH: next "very old" submission

Tracked in github.com
Issue #242

Novem Linguae, any chance you can figure out what the definition of "very old" that AFCH is using and the category(-ies) it should point to. In the 6 mos or so I've been helping at AfC, very old has always been at zero. Thanks for all you have been doing Slywriter 13:51, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Very old should absolutely, always, 100% be at zero, otherwise something has broken. Very Old is "over six months". This is all stated in the documentation. Primefac (talk) 14:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Ahh, it's linked to the template. I had only seen the category when completing an AFCH action and getting choices of random, zero, very old. In that particular instance, it's virtually useless if it should always be zero, perhaps the script should be directing to oldest filled category. Otherwise just taking up screen real estate with little benefit to reviewers. Slywriter (talk) 16:20, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, that particular line of code was when "very old" meant "anything older than 8 weeks". It's such a low priority that no one has bothered removing or updating it. Primefac (talk) 16:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

I wrote a patch for this just now. Easy peezy. –Novem Linguae (talk) 09:07, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Onmyway22 blocked as sock

FYI a current probationary reviewer Onmyway22 has been blocked for socking. According to my last scan in the last month they have done 165 review (28 accepts). apersonbot review list here. They have asked for a User_talk:Onmyway22#Blocked review claiming innocents but it is a checkuser block, on the other hand I have been mistakenly blocked so we can see. On a side note for those reviewers that have accepted at least one article 160/1,783 (~9%) have been indef blocked which is rather sad. KylieTastic (talk) 19:04, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Article acceptance table below, with days since acceptance as a proxy to determine if it can be draftified if necessary (given that now there's a 90 days limit for draftification for new articles in mainspace). Feel free to mangle the table. – robertsky (talk) 01:02, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Article	Date of acceptance	Days since acceptance	Remarks
Draft:Animal (2023 film)	2022-08-06T09:01:40Z	745
Ori Nee Prema Bangaram Kaanu	2022-08-06T07:12:01Z	745	Indian language film with actual critical reception review references and awards listed and referenced, seems fine SilverserenC 01:07, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Girl Friend (2002 film)	2022-08-06T06:52:50Z	745	Same as above. Less content comparably, but still actual reception references, so better than 99% of drafts. SilverserenC 01:09, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Victim (2022 film)	2022-08-06T06:02:23Z	745	Same as above, actual references and reviews, among other coverage. SilverserenC 01:10, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Taarak	2022-08-04T13:03:28Z	747	Film, reviews, references, seems fine. SilverserenC 01:12, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Fools (2003 film)	2022-08-03T16:01:05Z	748	Thinner coverage comparably, but it's still there. SilverserenC 01:13, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Ramma Chilakamma	2022-08-02T15:12:26Z	749
Anaganaga O Kurraadu	2022-08-02T14:56:51Z	749
Training school	2022-07-29T08:30:13Z	753
Sarkari Kelasa Devara Kelasa	2022-07-28T18:06:25Z	754
Tuglak	2022-07-28T18:02:19Z	754
Sembattai	2022-07-28T17:41:09Z	754
Yugam (film)	2022-07-28T17:28:24Z	754
Khadak (2022 film)	2022-07-27T06:38:16Z	755
Mr. Errababu	2022-07-21T07:42:48Z	761
Preethi Geethi Ityaadi	2022-07-20T17:13:23Z	762
Nenapinangala	2022-07-20T16:22:17Z	762
72 Model	2022-07-20T09:46:10Z	762
Iniya (2009 film)	2022-07-19T17:46:21Z	763
Sau Jhooth Ek Sach	2022-07-19T12:17:44Z	763
Daisy Belle (film)	2022-07-19T10:30:45Z	763
Dosti (2014 film)	2022-07-19T10:03:29Z	763
Shivajinagara (2014 film)	2022-07-19T03:59:49Z	763
Melody (2015 film)	2022-07-18T19:45:29Z	764
Savaal (2014 film)	2022-07-18T15:12:11Z	764
Thirudathey Papa Thirudathey	2022-07-18T07:56:11Z	764
Patra Vaitha Nerupondru	2022-07-18T07:40:00Z	764
College Days (2010 film)	2022-07-18T07:29:00Z	764

The first one on the list is a declined draft, just so you know. Silverseren^C 01:05, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think I need to go through and leave remarks for each individual one. All the film articles are decent, with reviews in some major paper, such as The Times of India, The Hindu, The New Indian Express, or Deccan Herald or Deccan Chronicle. The only odd ones out are Draft:Animal (2023 film), which was rejected by the editor in question, and Draft:Training school (United States), which was approved but never moved it seems? And is now submitted again, so is still a draft at the moment. Other than that, I'm not seeing any fundamental issues with these film articles. Silverseren^C 01:19, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Serbia articles

I know this has been discussed before (here and elsewhere), and maybe there's nothing that can be done, but still: this never-ending stream of drafts, translated from the Serbian wiki by someone/something out of Ontario, is a real drag! Usually it's pretty clear that noteworthiness is borderline at best, but notability cannot be easily disproven, due to the fairly opaque referencing. There are so many of them, and they make up such a big part of the draft pool, I'm not sure this is really sustainable. Is there no solution? -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:43, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Well I'd argue that notability is given in most cases because of the (typical extensive) coverage in scientific literature. The problem though is the poor copy pasting which breaks the referencing in these articles. A good solution to such problems in general would be limiting the number of active drafts per editor to a certain number, let's say 3. Then, the editor would be forced to fix the drafts before he could create new ones. But in this particular case, WP:CIR applies. Blocking 216.x is the only solution to this problem; just blocking this person out of the main space has clearly not fixed the issue. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 15:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Just to add some data we currently have 67 submissions mentioning Serbian of which 37 appear to be from 216.. For comparison the current list of submitters with more than 5 submissions is....

1. FloridaArmy - 65 Submissions
2. Filmforme - 13 Submissions
3. Immanuelle - 10 Submissions
4. 24.209.152.112 - 8 Submissions
5. 216.8.166.112 - 7 Submissions
6. 216.174.103.121 - 7 Submissions
7. Kingofstillport - 7 Submissions
8. 47.232.204.213 - 7 Submissions
9. DareshMohan - 7 Submissions
10. 216.8.171.220 - 6 Submissions
11. QueenofBithynia - 6 Submissions

No surprise for number one as usual.... Cheers KylieTastic (talk) 16:56, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. And yes, fair enough, FA is also prolific. But for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, I don't find their draft output quite as... overwhelming. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 17:04, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

I find both similar: they both are driven and have passion for their areas (a good thing), but also have the same issue of not improving on some things and submitting articles with the same issues over and over. I work on FAs legislators and I fix up some of the Serbian reference mess and mostly just try to ignore the rest. I work on the assumption that firstly we have no hope in changing some people and secondly that together we work through these issues eventually. FA is supposed to be limited to 20 submission in the hope they would work to improve submissions but that hasn't worked at all. Personally I would like to see users with accounts limited to 20 and IPs to maybe 3 and a bot that auto declines when over with instructions to either wait or de-submit another first. KylieTastic (talk) 18:01, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

Potential db-afc-moves...

In other words, is there an easy way to see which AFC submissions have mainspace equivalents that are redirects? Even if there is an easy way to see which articles in draftspace have mainspace equivalents, we should be able to quickly trim those down to AFC submissions based on a cat in the draftspace or even the text review waiting.Naraht (talk) 12:39, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

If you are thinking of preemptively request for db-afc-moves before the draft has completed its reviews, I think it should not be done so for couple of reasons. The draft may end up not being accepted and no one work on it for the six months, which more often than not is the case. Preemptive deletes of redirects, no matter how brief may leave redlinks on articles that would be otherwise currently, perfectly linked to other relevant articles via the redirects. – robertsky (talk) 14:15, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

If you are not thinking in that direction, there are a couple of ways. One could probably write a Quarry to find that information (and once it's written, it can just be re-run to refresh), or you could convert Category:AfC submissions with the same name as existing articles into a list of articles and use User:Anomie/linkclassifier.js to quickly see which ones are redirects.

I suspect the redlinks are due to the / in the title. Looks like all but about 20 are redirects. Primefac (talk) 20:53, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Quadrifoglio di Ameno (Four-leaf clover)

I came across this Draft:Quadrifoglio di Ameno (Four-leaf clover). I agree with the last reviewer Numberguy6's comment that this is not suitable for Wikipedia. The sources also seem to be primary, and in most cases quite close to the subject. Accordingly, I was going to reject this, but then noticed that it appears to have been created as some sort of student project from a nearby university, and I thought maybe I was being too harsh, and wanted to get a second opinion. Any thoughts? Ta, -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:53, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

PS: I meant to also say that I do think an article on this subject could be accepted, but IMO this isn't an article, it's a travel guide, so would need to be blown up and rewritten (although even then the lack of secondary sources would be a problem). -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:55, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@DoubleGrazing I would reject it with a kind note and refer them to Wikivoyage where the content is likely more appropriate. S0091 (talk) 16:04, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll just comment that the identity of the user is somewhat irrelevant; an intelligent squirrel can write a good (or bad) draft and we wouldn't really care. Primefac (talk) 16:32, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, fair enough. I just suddenly felt bad thinking they may be expecting some course credit for this, and then I hit them with a rejection, they all fail their course and have to drop out of uni and become hoboes... It's a lot to have on my conscience. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 16:57, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Don't feel bad - if they are required to do something they cannot do in order to get a good grade, then that is the course instructor's fault. Primefac (talk) 17:01, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Problems with university class projects are common, and are usually the fault of the instructor. As User:Primefac said, if the instructor expects the student to do something that is not permitted, that is not our fault. If the student has to drop out of university, then probably other students will also drop out of the same class, which makes it the university's problem. We reviewers often encounter stupid class assignments. It is a problem, but it is the way it is. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:41, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

@Primefac I might change my Username to Intelligent Squirrel.:) S0091 (talk) 16:58, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Hah! Primefac (talk) 18:07, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Another Copy-Paste Question: Draft Copied from Another Draft

I have yet another copy-paste question. I still think that we need clearer and more complete instructions about how to deal with copy-pastes, but this is one specific question. A draft of a BLP exists in draft space, and has not been submitted for review. Another editor copies the draft into their sandbox and submits it for review. What should I do? I become aware that it is a copy when I try to move the sandbox into draft space. I know of several wrong answers. Requesting a history merge is one of the wrong answers. The copy-paste is (if I understand correctly) a violation of the rules of attribution. I Rejected the draft as Contrary to the purposes of Wikipedia, and noted that it was a copy-paste. Is there a different better answer? Robert McClenon (talk) 17:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Your "wrong answer" is actually the correct one; if User B copies User A's draft, then it absolutely should be either histmerged or deleted. Primefac (talk) 18:08, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Primefac - I rejected the draft with a statement that it had been copy-pasted. Is that sufficient, or should I go back and tag it for deletion? One of the problems with tagging copy-pasted drafts for history merge is that it normalizes copy-pasting, by saying that copy-pasting is okay, because we can always clean it up with a history merge. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

In this case, A worked on A's draft after B copied it. Would a history merge create two competing drafts with a common history, a sort of fork? Or would the fact that A was still working on the draft be another reason to reject or delete the draft.

I will again say that I don't think we have clear instructions on how to deal with all of the different copy-paste situations. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Sure, reject B's and/or redirect it back to A's draft, especially if there are parallel histories. As we've just seen, there is no "one size fits all" set of instructions because there are always weird and edge cases that need evaluating. My check would be delete, histmerge, redirect, in that order, depending on circumstance. Primefac (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Primefac You mention delete as an option, sometimes a preferred option, for copy-paste. What speedy delete code should be used to request deletion of copy-pasted material? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, I just did a {{db-move}} for a user that copied a draft to their userspace improperly - the copy was the last thing that happened so a straight delete-and-move to fix the improper edit. It's kind of the old-school method of doing a histmerge but it makes for a more obvious edit (since the histmerge logs are hard to find). Primefac (talk) 19:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

When you find a copy-paste? Good options are WP:G12, Wikipedia:Requests for history merge, or speedy redirect back to the source for trivial cases (barely no further work done with the copy-paste). On WP:RFHM User:Anthony Appleyard (RIP) was very efficient. I think REJECT is a wrong option when G12 or RFHM should be used.

I wonder whether a bot that searches new pages for unattributed copy-pastes is feasible? I know that an edit filter is decided to not be feasible. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:54, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

{{AFC submission}} has a check for existing drafts over a certain size, which pops the page into Category:Possible AfC copy-and-paste moves, but I do not think there are any other automated processes. I do suppose someone could clone User:CorenSearchBot and have it only search the Draft space for duplicates, but I wonder if there's a cost/benefit risk (usually these things get picked up pretty quickly). Primefac (talk) 07:18, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Sure, requests to bot writers assumes the bot writers do a cost-benefit analysis. In real life, I’ve had two near equal requests, I thought, and one was done right in front of me, and another I heard months later “do realise what you were asking for?!” SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:03, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

The recurring example that always irks me is this: A draft exists, for some time, and is more than a stub. A new editor begins work on that draft. After they’ve improved it, they copy-paste the contents to mainspace. They then MfD the draft with the rationale “article already exists”, which if agreed to, loses all information on the prior authors. I asked, can we have a bot read new articles and query whether it is a copy of a draft article under the same title. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:26, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I have seen this scenario that User:SmokeyJoe mentions, "article already exists", too many times at MFD, and I agree that it is completely wrong by the nominator. I don't think that I have ever seen the draft deleted improperly. We have Speedy Redirect for the purpose. When I see a request to delete a draft because the article exists, I usually think that the nominator is trying to steal credit. More generally, many copy-pastes are attempts to steal credit. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:41, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

In that example the MFD folks should realise it was a copy/paste job, decline to delete, and ask for a histmerge.

As far as the request goes, I'm not saying we can't have a bot that does this, but WP:BOTREQ would be the better place to ask. Primefac (talk) 13:13, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

When you find a copy-paste? Good options are WP:G12 ... Can G12 be used for internal copy paste moves though? I've never seen that. Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and I'll learn something today. –Novem Linguae (talk) 07:49, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Fixing attribution failures of Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia does not document G12 as a solution, but it is a good solution of a trivial worthless copy-paste, eg someone copy-pasted something, and did nothing serious with it, and subsequently the source page was developed. In this case, the unattributed fork represents a WP:Copyrights compliance hazard, and nothing good can come of it, and it fits G12.

In terms of G12 wording, where “there is no non-infringing content on the page worth saving” is true because it is all on the source page, and it is some work to fix the copyright compliance of this worthless page, I think that’s a reasonable G12. SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:16, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Clarification on G12

So to clarify, is G12 the proper CSD code to use in requesting deletion of a copy-paste? Will admins recognize that a "bad" copy-paste is a reason for a G12? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

I do not think there is a yes or no answer to whether it is "the proper CSD code". It is a code that can be used, but there are many options when dealing with a copy/paste. Personally, I use G12 for deleting copy/pastes when it is the only reasonable option; specifically, if a page has been copy/pasted from draft/userspace (by a different editor) and is not in any way suitable for mainspace (at that point in time), but doesn't meet any of the other CSD criteria, I will use G12 to delete it as a copyvio. If the page has previously been draftified, then a G12 probably isn't appropriate per WP:DRAFTOBJECT and either a {{db-move}} or a histmerge is in order. I know it's nice to have a perfect lovely flowchart that gives every possible scenario, but unfortunately most the issues surrounding copy/paste pagemoves come down to administrator discretion, and are largely predicated on what has happened before the article was copy/pasted. I cannot give you a better answer than that. Primefac (talk) 16:14, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Primefac said that if the page has previously been draftified, then a G12 probably is not appropriate. Okay. But do you mean that the page was draftified and the author then copy-pastes it from draft space into article space? In that case, there is a disagreement as to whether the page should be in article space. Isn't AFD in order? You also mentioned {{db-move}}. Please clarify what would be requested to be moved where. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:34, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

If a page has been draftified and the author copy/pastes their own draft into the article space, then it needs to be brought to AFD per WP:DRAFTOBJECT. Whether or not there should be a histmerge is dependent on whether anyone else added content that was later copied over, and whether anyone added text after the copy determines whether it makes more sense to histmerge or just hit it with a {{db-move}}. I genuinely can't tell you which scenarios to use which because I have done probably a dozen of each over the last week alone and couldn't separate out which fell into which category; I look at every page on its own merits based on what someone tags the page with. Sometimes I will agree with a histmerge and do it, sometimes I will decide a db-move is more appropriate, and sometimes when there's a db-move I might determine that a histmerge is more appropriate. As long as the page is flagged for some sort of administrative review, that is the important part. Primefac (talk) 16:53, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:G12 notes that the "mere lack of attribution" of freely licensed content" isn't a reason for deletion, so it doesn't apply to internal copy-paste moves (unless, of course, the original source was itself a copyvio). Extraordinary Writ (talk) 16:19, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with this; the very (very) few times I have G12'd a page for being a cross-wiki copy, there has been a healthy dose of IAR involved. Primefac (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Another Specific Question

If User A creates a draft, and then User A copy-pastes the draft into article space, is a history merge required? I had thought that the answer was no, unless User C had made some edits to the draft while it was in draft space. Some reviewers, trying to do the right thing, routinely tag for history merge. I assume that it is better to tag for history merge when in doubt, and let the administrator decide. But I also would like to see the guidelines that administrators use in deciding whether to do the requested history merge. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:00, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

They do routinely tag for a histmerge, and I routinely decline it. That being said, I would rather decline a histmerge than not, but if there is only one content editor then there are no attribution issues and thus no histmerge required. The guideline at WP:CUTPASTE is When a cut-and-paste move is done, the page history of an article or talk page can be split among two or more different pages. This is highly undesirable, because we need to keep the history with the content for copyright reasons. (See Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia.) This is why when there is only one editor there are no attribution issues; we only require that attribution be given to all users involved in creating and altering the content of a page (from WP:CWW). Primefac (talk) 19:15, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

In a situation such as this, if it is obvious to me, while a hist-merge is requested, that it is a single user case and so does not require a history merge, may I, as another reviewer, remove the history merge tag with an edit summary explaining why? Or should I wait for an admin? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Sure, if you feel comfortable doing so. Primefac (talk) 19:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Question About a Possible Bot

My question for User:SmokeyJoe or anyone else who has asked about a bot to detect possible copy-pastes is: Exactly what tests should the bot apply? A bot cannot make any tests or comparisons that a human cannot make. What a bot can do in this case that a human cannot is to monitor the queue of new pages created either in article space or in draft space and examine them as they come in, and make the tests. What should the bot compare or test against what? The less difficult question then is what the bot should do if it "thinks" that the page is a copy-paste. The bot can put a tag on the page that flags it for human review by adding it to a category. The important question is what comparisons or tests the bot should make. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:03, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

A possible algorithm for a copy paste detection bot would be to do what Earwig does. That is, search some random pieces of text on the page (in this case using Wikipedia's native CirrusSearch instead of the Yahoo search API) and see if it gets any hits. It should probably monitor the new articles stream and filter on mainspace only. And its searches should probably check draftspace only. –Novem Linguae (talk) 21:05, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Question to know

If there is a (disambiguation) page exists without any bracket Example like this article also Draft:Example exists which is an article about something how to move that draft Draft:Example to article as already a disambiguation page exists which is Example. {If I move Example to Example (disambiguation) it will automatically create a redirect page as I am not a page mover} what is the appropriate tag to delete the redirect page Example so that I can move Draft:Example to Example. NP83 (talk) 09:37, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

A page mover or a admin can help you out. 103.52.254.163 (talk) 09:41, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

If Draft:Example needs to be accepted, but the disambiguation page Example already exists, then the draft page should be disambiguated when it's accepted. To give a more generic hypothetical, if Joe Bloggs exists as a dab and Draft:Joe Bloggs needs to be accepted, and the latter Bloggs is an artist, the the draft would be accepted as Joe Bloggs (artist). We should not be moving dabs out of the way just because there is a new draft. Primefac (talk) 13:15, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

User:Primefac Joe Bloggs is a article page but I'am saying what if Joe Bloggs is a disambiguation page?. NP83 (talk) 14:52, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

NP83 Primefac did say "if Joe Bloggs exists as a dab" - but if you want a real example a good one is John Smith and Draft:John Smith where if Draft:John Smith was accepted it's title would be John Smith (whatever) or John some-middle-name Smith etc. KylieTastic (talk) 15:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

User:NP83 - As User:Primefac and User:KylieTastic said. If there is an existing dab page, then any draft that should be accepted can be disambiguated and added as a link to the dab page. For instance, if John Green is a dab page, and Draft:John Green is about an artist, they should be disambiguated to John Green (artist). Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Primefac said:

We should not be moving dabs out of the way just because there is a new draft.

My only issue with that statement is that it should be in bold face. Dab pages should be added to if there is a new draft. Is there some further explanation that you need? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Labeling a Draft for DAB

I have a template that I use to put an AFC comment on a draft to say that it will be an entry in a DAB. If you are reviewing Draft:John Green, and there already is John Green (which there is), you can put a comment on the draft, {{adddisamb|John Green}}, as in {{adddisamb}}, for the benefit of future reviewers. Either disambiguate the draft at the time, or let the accepting reviewer disambiguate it. The only limitation to the use of this template is that the comment gets stripped off when the draft is accepted after disambiguation. I would like to put the comment on the draft talk page, but that is a known low-priority request. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:13, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Maybe Another Wrong Answer on a Copy-Paste

I have just seen what I think is another mistaken good-faith effort to deal with a copy-paste. A page was created in article space, and was moved by a reviewer back to draft space. It was then copied by the article author back into article space with the addition of more references. An editor then tagged it for A10, recent creation duplicating an existing article. I think that is a mistake because A10 only applies to articles that duplicate articles, not that duplicate drafts in review. There isn't an attribution issue because the two pages have the same author. Am I correct that A10 is a mistaken answer to that problem? (Also, a valid A10 should usually be redirected rather than deleted, by the admin, but that isn't the issue.) Robert McClenon (talk) 02:55, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Yep, A10 applies only to articles that "duplicate[] an existing English Wikipedia article"; here's the most recent discussion. This issue seems to come up fairly frequently: I suppose it's off topic here, but perhaps it would be possible for the template to display an error message when the duplicated page isn't in mainspace. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 03:08, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I thought the issue was familiar, seeing who asked the question seven months ago. The situation was exactly the same then, an editor copying a draftified article back into article space. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:07, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Gorutna

Just noticed a new editor Gorutna with 49 edits doing manual reviews! KylieTastic (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Interesting. Wonder if they were doing so as an unregistered user before? Hey man im josh (talk) 15:27, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

• unsurprisingly blocked as a sock but no note of any named sock-master - however their "accepts" should be considered dubious: Sprengplatz Grunewald, Swoop Aero, Jaida Lee and Odelya Halevi but appear to have nothing in common. KylieTastic (talk) 21:17, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

  The rules currently say something like non-approved AFC reviewers doing reviews is "strongly discouraged". Should we change that to something firmer such as "not allowed"? Seems counter intuitive to have a WP:PERM-like background check process then allow people to ignore it. –Novem Linguae (talk) 00:45, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  I think so, yes. If someone wants to move a draft into the main space, there's nothing to stop them, of course, but at least they shouldn't pretend to be an AfC reviewer when they're not; that's just plain dishonest. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 05:28, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure what this would accomplish; non-AFCH users are allowed to determine whether an AFC-submitted draft is "acceptable" and can move things to the article space; I see nothing in the three articles above wherein the user is somehow "pretending" to be an AFCH user (though I have seen our default edit summaries copied by other editors before). Even if they aren't on the AFCH list, it's not like we can reverse the action purely because they said so. Primefac (talk) 10:56, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  May not have been this user, but I've certainly seen earlier someone issuing AfC acceptance notices on the creators' talk pages. That was my point: we can't stop anyone moving articles into the main space, but if they try to make it look as if it's a legit AfC outcome, that's where they cross a line, IMO. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:10, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  PS: Just remembered, it was one of Stevence SA socks (who issued AfC notices). -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 11:16, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  Fair enough, though I guess my primary thought is that people will (mis)use our templates regardless of what we tell them. I'm getting distracted with other thoughts below though. Primefac (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  Okay, so this is me probably rushing and missing something obvious, but where in our rules do we use the phrase "strongly discouraged"? If you're talking about the WP:AFCP notice tucked under all of the other stuff, that seems like a pretty obscure place to indicate this. Primefac (talk) 11:36, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  I was thinking of this: WP:AFCP: PLEASE NOTE: Editors whose usernames are not on the list are strongly cautioned not to review AfC submissions. –Novem Linguae (talk) 11:40, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  In that case, I will stick with my earlier sentiment, in that folks not on the list are able to review drafts, and we cannot prohibit it. Primefac (talk) 11:44, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  It does seem strange to have an admin granted permission for the script but to allow anyone to actually pretend to be a reviewer. However the problem is not really with the accepting as we have WP:NPP... or the mover is auto-patrolled so 'trusted'. However the issue is probably more with the declines as they could be declining notable articles and putting off good editors and by updating the submit as the script would it looks like a sanctioned review. KylieTastic (talk) 11:58, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

  You can say we have WP:NPP, but the backlog is seriously growing. The backlog drive helped, but we've back to over 10k pages unreviewed. I guess what I'm saying is we need help at NPP to keep things efficient. Hey man im josh (talk) 12:12, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Just spotted JabrinUttu, an account created on 30 June, whose 11th edit was declining a draft, and all their 26 edits since have been manual reviews (all declines apart from Resonai). Any connection here? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 10:23, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

They're not a technical match to Gorutna if that's what you're wondering. I haven't had a chance to look, but are the declines wrong? Primefac (talk) 10:36, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Just as you were posting your comment I filed this SPI: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Gorutna after I concluded the behaviour was identical. Interesting they aren't a technical match. I will update the SPI to remove the CU request. I will go through the declines. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 10:42, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Draft:Consumer Compliance would be a tricky review for a beginner - serious article, on a subject that would appear appropriate for an article, with lots of sources, maybe a bit essay-like, and possibly trying to synthesise a definition where the author is clearly struggling to find an authoritative one in reliable sources... but harsh to decline for notability with a standard template. Needs an experienced reviewer... Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 11:01, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Article wizard

FYI WP:article wizard has been proposed to be renamed; see Wikipedia talk:Article wizard -- 64.229.88.43 (talk) 05:40, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Can't access sources in a draft

Greetings,

so I'm hopefully posting this in the right space – if not, trout me. I'm a new reviewer and decided to try a random submission, landing at Draft:Daydream Hotel. I looks to me as not an easy one, i.e. neither obviously bad nor clearly ready. To make matters worse, I can't access these two sources used in the article at all, because I'm accessing from the EU. Could someone kindly take a look at these and tell me whether or not they are any good? -- LordPeterII (talk) 13:12, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

The first one you linked does not have a page author and looks like a press release follow a template of some sort. The second source only said "student-based production" and does not support the fact directly. Might be OR. By the way use Wayback Machine it should bypass the geoblock. [1] [2] 0xDeadbeef 13:42, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@0xDeadbeef: Ah now that is a clever idea, it worked! I can read the sources myself now, thanks. I am leaning towards a rejection then, since many of the sources are not about the article subject directly, but things related to it (director, location). Since this is my first review, would you mind telling me if you disagree? --LordPeterII (talk) 22:26, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

@LordPeterII: Did you mean decline? Rejecting it would prevent it from being resubmitted. I would agree with a decline but not with a reject. 0xDeadbeef 01:44, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

@0xDeadbeef: Oh yeah no I meant decline, mixed up the terms. Alright, will do that then. --LordPeterII (talk) 12:13, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

NPP message

Hi WikiProject Articles for creation,

Invitation

For those who may have missed it in our last newsletter, here's a quick reminder to see the letter we have drafted, and if you support it, do please go ahead and sign it. If you already signed, thanks. Also, if you haven't noticed, the backlog has been trending up lately; all reviews are greatly appreciated.

To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Archiving and date headings

I noticed that no date headings had been added to the help desk for a few days (I just added them manually). This is something normally done by scsbot. scs posted a heads-up at Wikipedia talk:Help desk#Archiving may be interrupted – I assume this is the same issue? In any case, it looks like manual archiving will be needed. I don't have the time to work out how to do that right now. Any volunteers? :-) --bonadea contributions talk 12:18, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

You're right, it's the same issue. I'm hopeful that the bot can be repaired in the next couple of days. If you can tolerate some temporary extra volume, you might not need to worry about manual archiving, which can be a pain. —scs (talk) 16:32, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the issue is resolved now. —scs (talk) 02:30, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks, scs. May you receive kittens and beer (or whatever makes you happy). --bonadea contributions talk 16:22, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources

This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources. Reliable sources are required so that information can be verified. If you need help with referencing, please see Referencing for beginners and Citing sources.

This has no doubt been discussed before, possibly even by yours truly, in which case apologies for repetition!

The decline reason 'v' - Submission is improperly sourced seems to cause confusion. It gives an explanation stating This submission is not adequately supported by reliable sources, which I interpret (rightly or wrongly) as meaning one of two things: either the sources are not reliable, or the referencing is inadequate, ie. doesn't support all/enough of the article contents (and/or doesn't verify the information). But — possibly because the explanation then goes on to elaborate on what reliable sources are — it seems to give the impression that it's only the quality of sources why the draft was declined. The user then comes to the help desk confused, as they've cited only legit RS sources... but are overlooking the fact that half the draft is unsupported.

I know many add comments to their decline in any case, but I think this is one situation where it is particularly helpful to explain which of the two issues is the actual reason for declining. -- DoubleGrazing (talk) 09:36, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

I suppose an extra sentence adding that all content must be verified would work. Primefac (talk) 09:55, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

@Primefac: MUST all content be verified? My understanding is that for purposes of AfC acceptance, the important thing is that notability has been established. Inadequate referencing for additional material beyond the criterion for notability is another issue that I always comment on, but it is not a reason to decline, or so I thought. Doric Loon (talk) 13:07, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, all content must be verified. If a draft is being declined because the content is not verified, then the decline notice should reflect that. Do we accept drafts where not 100% of the content is sourced? Sure, but we also aren't declining those drafts under v. Primefac (talk) 13:12, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

German politician bios

Good afternoon my AFC colleagues! So, I'm a little suspicious about the number of BLPs coming in about past members of the Bundestag. Draft:Wolfgang von Geldern, Wolfgang Lüder, Reinhard von Schorlemer, Knut von Kühlmann-Stumm as examples. They are done by a couple different editors but look similar, which makes me worried about a sockfarm, but it very well could be a drive on a WikiProject that I am unaware of. I think I'm being too suspicious, but I would love a second opinion. Thanks! Bkissin (talk) 18:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Two of those four are deceased, it looks like. I don't think UPEs would write articles for deceased people. Probably a false alarm :) –Novem Linguae (talk) 23:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Accepting a draft over a redirect

Draft:Xdinary Heroes looks to pass WP:NBAND #2 [3][4], and I was going to accept it, but there is currently a redirect in place. Should I copy the draft article over the redirect, request a deletion of the redirect and accept the draft per usual, or tell the editor who wrote the draft to copy it over the redirect to maintain contribution history? Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:19, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

• ScottishFinnishRadish "request a deletion of the redirect" use {{Db-afc-move|Draft:page to be moved}} – for pages that are currently holding up a non-controversial or consensual page move as a result of an Articles for creation (AFC) review, typically for articles in draft space. KylieTastic (talk) 11:37, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  Disagree with this. It is a misuse of CSD#G6. The old redirect history should stay in the history. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:34, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  No, it really shouldn't, because "the redirect target was changed" is trivial history, and is explicitly exempted from preventing a G6. Primefac (talk) 12:41, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  Disagree. WP:CSD is at fault with way too liberal use of G6. SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:18, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

  That's your prerogative, but at the moment it's perfectly acceptable to do so. Primefac (talk) 13:21, 30 August 2022 (UTC)

Acceptance comment

Would it be possible to add a facility to the BOT so that we can write a comment when we accept a draft? At the moment this only seems to be possible when we decline. The point is that since we accept a draft when it satisfies notability criteria, even though it still has a lot of work needed, it can be helpful for us to leave a note suggesting what to do next. I often do this just by leaving a message on the author's user talk manually, but it would be better if, as in the case of rejections, this comment was already built into the banner that is put there automatically. Doric Loon (talk) 13:17, 30 August 2022 (UTC)