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* Thanks for your compliments :) The way you gain more userspace is to make user subpages. If you need any help, I'll be glad to do so. -- penubag (talk) 01:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC) * Just want to say that's some fine HTML work on your userpage... it's gorges and very clean and organized. But, how does one achieve several different pages outside of just the single userpage? NoFlyingCars (talk) 01:04, 17 November 2009 (UTC) * hey anons! -- penubag (talk) 19:37, 3 October 2009 (UTC) * Hi. 90.193.151.67 (talk) 06:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC) * Hihihihihihi. 90.212.10.248 (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC) * Of course you are! Any person that is willing to spend time to help out in building an encyclopedia is good. It takes dedication! -- penubag (talk) 07:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC) * Hey man am i a good editor? BigPadresDUDE (talk) 03:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC) * Hey! What's up doc? -- penubag (talk) 19:24, 19 June 2009 (UTC) * Hello, there. --I dream of horses (talk) 21:17, 17 June 2009 (UTC) * Why, hello! -- penubag (talk) 23:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* Hi! I just decided to stop by and say hello. :D Iridescence talk • contrib 16:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC) * I dropped out of college this morning. I'm ready for a job. [[ User ]] (talk) 00:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC) * hi guys :) -- penubag (talk) 02:07, 12 December 2008 (UTC) *Hello shoutbox! Roger choco diles[reply]

**pokes* TNP (formerly Jonathan) 02:23, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Hi. XD [[ User ]] (talk) 20:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC) *Hello!!! И i m b u s a n i a talk 06:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC) *English is a stupid language, that's all. You can see this here for all your there's: [1] -- penubag (talk) 23:25, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I forgot what the difference between "there", "their" and "they're". I'm not smart at all. Can you tell want the difference is? And I'm very stupid and dumb... [[ User ]] (talk) 22:30, 26 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, 130 km/h winds would blow me away. As for the █, see: List of unicode characters :) -- penubag (talk) 05:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. 130 km/h winds would sure be scary! Where'd you get the "█"? ~A H 1^(TCU) 00:11, 23 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*I'm glad you had fun, I wish I could go camping. I think I may want to go this summer. -- penubag (talk) 05:43, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I went on a trip with a missions group to Camp Forest Springs in Wisconsin and it was very fun. I was gone from October 17 to October 20. We sang a very fun song, its called "The Moose Song". [[ User ]] (talk) 01:36, 20 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What do think of me? I have changed big time. From action — Survival horror, Psychological horror and Splatter film. Whats happened to me?!?! [[ User ]] (talk) 17:37, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your page rules, I found your secret page, nicely hidden.--Music26/11 13:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
RE: What type of update? [[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (talk) 19:23, 27 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, how are you. I know it is not very imaginative but i don't know what to say, but hey. AtheWeatherman (talk) 19:13, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Guess what, an update made it so you don't have to put {{spaces}} any more! Let me update your shoutboxes! -- penubag (talk) 06:56, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah! Hey Penubag! I ♥ Wikipedia!!! (This is very random, but I wanted to say that here). [[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (talk) 22:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Don't we all :)?-- penubag (talk) 21:14, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, I like wikipedia too!--Blacky98 (talk) 18:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's nice... ...-- penubag (talk) 02:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good job. I gave the info, did I? anyways I found sometime I think in June, May, or, April, or maybe it was in March, I don't know. [[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (talk) 22:09, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Yeah! I found the secret page! I was able to go to the history and copy/paste the barnstar code to my page, so that's good. :) --♥Soccer5525♥Talk To Me! 19:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC) *Thanks. I have a Wiki that is mostly rock, it called Warped Tour Wiki the official Wiki for the Warped Tour. You wanna join [[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (talk) 23:44, 7 August 2008 (UTC) *Wow, that's cool. -- penubag (talk) 05:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC) *Check out this Revision, For from Sandbox. [[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (talk) 01:04, 1 August 2008 (UTC) *I know where it is, I won't tell you cause you have to look for it yourself, or ask Penubag. Demon Hunter Rules(—) 22:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC) * I blanked the page because it was causing problems. When you find the page, check the page history to claim your reward. -- penubag (talk) 05:20, 5 August 2008 (UTC) * I'm still looking for your secret page! It's soooo hard! --Soccer 5525 (Tk • Ctrb) 22:40, 22 July 2008 (UTC) *Oh, that's all right. Thanks for visiting my userpage :) -- penubag (talk) 03:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC) *you know, honestly I don't remember how I found your userpage. Sorry. But thank you for signing my shoutbox and guestbook! --Soccer 5525 (Tk • Ctrb) 22:05, 17 July 2008 (UTC) *okay-- penubag (talk) 19:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC) *Since I signed your shoutbox, you have to sign mine and my guestbook! PLEASE? --Soccer 5525 (Tk • Ctrb) 19:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC) *Thanks for the heads up, see you soon. -- penubag (talk) 19:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC) *Penubag, I'm semi-retiring for many months and well I'm just giving you a heads up and well I might retire so anything you might wanna say to me now is the time but, you may leave me a message until the school season starts cause I'm heading back to College and well you can learn more about this on my user page. Demon Hunter Rules(—) 00:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC) *Hello Diligent Terrier. -- penubag (talk) 17:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC) *Hi! - Diligent Terrier (and friends) 00:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC) *Hey if you can't join well I can wait but if you don't want to then ok thats alright with me so thanks any way. Demon Hunter Rules(—) 23:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC) *Thanks, but I am really busy and probably won't be able to contribute. -- penubag (talk) 08:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC) *Hey i made a wikia: Action Movies Wiki heyy do you wanna join cause i can upgrade your user status. Demon Hunter Rules(—) 23:34, 18 June 2008 (UTC) *Please Juth & Chyr please put your edits on top of the page so penubag can find out what messges you left. Demon Hunter Rules(—) 02:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC) *Greetings -- penubag (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC) *Hello Juthani1 ^tcs 17:13, 1 June 2008 (UTC) *Yep, but I blanked the page because of the MfD. You can still see it by looking on the history page though. -- penubag (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC) *You have a hidden link?!--Colonel Valh ala-112 23:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC) *That's okay, I don't have time to read about it anyways. -- penubag (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC) *I cancelled it so well you won't be able here about my amazing adventures. Demon Hunter Rules(—) 20:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*I want to tell you something and it is: I made a message about my life(Incredible adventures) and well i auto subscribed you plus i added some bonus things the first one tommorow so if you want it or not just reply on my shoutbox OK also thank you so much on the template i just got desprate well i already told you that and i thank you very much for it is awsome. Demon Hunter Rules(—) 23:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Hello! -- penubag (talk) 04:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC) *Hi. StewieGriffin! • Talk 15:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC) *You're welcome! -- penubag (talk) 08:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC) *I'm getting desperate cause: i need some other user's to help the metal wikia project i would be the only user their besides "Hammerise" and well i need this to help my side project. Click here! Demon Hunter Rules(—) 19:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC) *Perfect and your did a awsome job one-hundred percent! Click here! Demon Hunter Rules(—) 19:28, 29 May 2008 (UTC) *done -- penubag (talk) 04:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC) *Hey i need to ask you for a favor please, well i need a sign that says "This user is advertising for help on a site please join this site, and would love user's who the genre metal, and would if you ask other user's for help" Well i can put the text down but i need your help so can you help me on? cause i i mean we metal wikian's need some help cause they got one-hundred articles i mean that is not a lot at all! and after the template is created i have a to do the rest! so will you please? also it will be advertised to lead out of wikipedia to metal wikia and it will be advertised in the sandbox. Click here! Demon Hunter Rules(—) 18:50, 28 May 2008 (UTC) *I hate scary movies so I'll make sure I don't watch any of those. -- penubag (talk) 02:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC) *Hey PenuBag i'm a part the Metal Wiki Well check out the link next to the text and, i like Penny DreadFul. wikiasite:metal:Special:Listusers. Did You Know: Did you know i was at the 2006 8 Films to Die for Festival i didn't go to anyother Horrorfest festival since then and well it was creappy and vile in Death![reply]

My given award's to the 2006 Horrorfest.

- Most Scariest film: The Hamiltons
- Second most scary film: Penny Dreadful
- Third scariest film: Wicked Little Things Demon Hunter Rules (—|—) 23:27, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Done, see your talk -- penubag (talk) 23:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC) *copyright, images, inclusionist, hackerMachete97 (talk) 22:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC) * Yep, I designed them all :). Tell me which one you want and I'll transclude it for you. -- penubag (talk) 03:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC) * AArgh ! your userboxes are all actually here - not migrated from their own page ! I was gonna use some.Machete97 (talk) 10:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC) *Congrats on the admin stats! -- penubag (talk) 03:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC) *Sir or mam please sign your comment, also hey penubag i am a sysop on metal wikia isn't that cool! Demon Hunter Rules (—|—) 22:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC) *Nice page! -- penubag (talk) 03:11, 24 May 2008 (UTC) *dude im hungry check out my page at user:juicestain. *Hi i have found website yesterday(May 13th) and well i was looking for some information about Mila Kunis and well i came across chickipedia.com wikipedia about women and men check it out. Demon Hunter Rules (—|—) 16:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC) *Yes, it's cool, but I like black better. -- penubag (talk) 10:22, 21 April 2008 (UTC) *~~<span style="color:orange">~~Please hope you like what i have done it looks so cool check it out when its white i will be doing the same thing i just thought of this just ot let you know. Demon Hunter Rules Kate Beckinsale|— 00:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC) *I have a new page i would like to share with you find some free time where have ten minutes free not a very long one. Page Title: User:Blood Lines of Darkness/Funny Stuff if you do not get it please ask me but please read the whole thing. Demon Hunter Rules Kate Beckinsale|Contribs 22:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC) *Ok so when are coming back next week, next month next decaed not i was just kidding so when are going to be back cause i am just curious and well so please just tell me. -- Demon Hunter Rules {~~UserTalkPage~~} 22:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC) *I don't know. I am also very busy and I just made a new userpage. Maybe later, also, I'll be leaving Wikipedia for a while. -- penubag (talk) 04:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC) *Well we can copy our userpage's well you can cause i am B.U.S.Y. on Metal Wikia so ya i am going to be B.U.S.Y. well i will be B.U.S.Y. on the wikia site's so i will not be able to copy and past mine on to yours and also you can copy mine i do not mind if you do that. -- Demon Hunter Rules {~~UserTalkPage~~} 20:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC) *I'm not sure how to do that. -- penubag (talk) 05:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC) *I have an amazing idea wanna share your usepage with mine we can mix them so it would not be vandalism anymore so do you like that idea cause you can contribute to your userpage but it would also be edting my userpage but if their is any problems just tell me on my Shoutbox. --[[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (~~talk~~) 18:23, 27 March 2008 (UTC) *Wassis do? Regret Tenenbaum (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC) *Well i spell it with a "y" just to let you know ok. -- " —The Black Dahlia Murder and Step Up 2 Rules Dirt Tv Show Rules 00:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC) *How do I update it? What do I update it on? Oh, just to let you know, tyme is spelled like "time" -- penubag (talk) 05:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC) *I have an idea for the update thing i will make a Wikitable about the tyme of update. -- " Alestorm Rules. 21:37, 18 March 2008 (UTC) *I need a favor can you update my Sidebar when i have no tyme to do it cause i am pretty B.U.S.Y right no so i need your help to update it cause well when i am not doing anything really i can but i will won't be updating it for a little while cause i am pretty B.U.S.Y. so that is why i need youw help thanks. -- " Alestorm Rules. 20:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC) *Well i do not understand the feeling of it but it is a good change not very good but good tho cause i hate the movie Grindhouse cause it is pretty violent really thats the part i do not like about cause i am not a violent person. -- " Alestorm Rules. 20:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC) *Cool, I also like video games! However, I haven't lately had the time. I dislike horror movies, they make me sick inside, but I understand that some people like that feeling :) -- penubag (talk) 06:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC) *Man i need to get this stuff out of my head cause Horror is almost my lifestyle it is not supossed to be that way tho it is very harmful seriously harmful to me. -- " Alestorm Rules. 20:38, 17 March 2008 (UTC) *True very true also i got Ratchet & Clank: Size Matters it is a hard game it has a lot of cool weapons like a Shock Rocket it shocks enemy's also the PDA it was awsome it really is but the enemy's are tough like the Technomite's they hate humans cause they are not accepted as a great species every one is taking advantage of. -- " Alestorm Rules. 23:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC) *Interesting dream, makes me wonder why people have dreams. ---- penubag (talk) 23:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC) *Man I had a very different dream last night okay see here's the story. —— It starts like a good day then a neighbor came by then later I was playing The Legend of Spyro: The Eternal Night when she was watching me play the game but then I blacked out then I was inside a safety factory it was weird cause we were trying to survive a Zombie raid during a Aftermath it was kinda scary, Greg Evigan was in the nightmare / dream, okay when I saw some Zombie's at a door they were Zombie janitors they got in when I passed bye them then I looked in the room where I in from the door was open then when I said hey the Zombie's got in, then Greg Evigan said "What what do you mean got in they got in?" "I seen them come and open the door when I passed bye thats what I said" then he went up there and the door closed then I seen blood splatter at the window it was pretty creepy then I blacked out again and I was the only surviver at the factory nobody survived it was a massacre then I blacked out once again and I was in a field and I seen a bunch of Zombie's chasing me —— that's when I awakened I did not finish the dream though it was a complete nightmare it was scary you would be in complete shock if you witnessed the terror I was dreaming of, I would be dead bye the time I get into the factory or other wise my car. -- " Alestorm Rules. 19:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC) *Also for the band go to this is the bands official page here so go if you can handle it ok good. -- " Alestorm Rules. 01:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC) *Well there is many of them wikia's and I am a drummer I quit though cause I could not focus on Managing concerts so I went on Hiatus I will be on hiatus for a little bit so I can rest so I am creating articles there for a great metal cause so please don't be threatened by my love of Metal well I also love Christian music also and I like Power metal its a great type of music well I did not like it at first but I got used to it actually I did not like Music at all in 1989-2005 so now I listen to harder music from 2007-Present its great music. -- " Alestorm Rules. 00:37, 14 March 2008 (UTC) *Okay, I saw your userpage, pretty good. I suppose your a singer of metal? I'm not very fond of metal myself, but doing what you like is the best. ---- penubag (talk) 00:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC) *Yes I love it can you make it I also am listening to Over The Sea's its an awsome song! also if metal Wiki doesn't take you my userpage then go to User:Darkness Arise I have a big constructive editing streak there also can you make it I will be B.U.S.Y. you want to know what B.U.S.Y. means? if you do then here it is "Being Under Satans Yoke" it means that [[Christian]s] go to Hell cause they have no time for God so they do not worship him any more its terrible I mean it its a extremely bad thing. -- " Annihilation By The Hands Of God 23:01, 13 March 2008 (UTC) *Cool, if you really like the movie and want others to know about it, you could make a userbox or a banner for your userpage, if I have time, I'll make it for you. If you say it's a really good movie, I'll go watch it. I'm not sure what metal wikia is for but I'll go check it out. -- penubag (talk) 03:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC) *Well on Metal wikia my username is Darkness Arise the site is just like wikipedia just a little different like the skins this is MonoBook you can have this skin in this wikia so are you ready cause i am. " The Annihilator 21:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC) *Trust me it is in theaters right now its definitly a Chick Flick ok but it was a great movie i loved it and i can't believe i love it to can you tell any user you know about this dark moment please do tell cause i need to get used to being laughed at really i need to so please do that for me please check out this site to spread it out Metal wikia my username is Darkness Arise so please tell a lot of wikipedians please it will be like gossip ok good also i recommend you see it say to every wikipedian you know to see Step Up 2 ok cause they got awsome dance moves ok it the best movie since Cloverfield cause it was an awsome movie so go see it soon ok good now we understand eachother oh yeah take a look for what i(they) have in metal.wikia.com ok good thats the spirit so spread that Step Up 2 to every wikipedian you know and tell them to spread it say that User:Blood Lines of Darkness seen Step Up 2 and loved it yah know they have enough money for a sequel ok cause they made ten million more Dollars than last year so i hope they make a sequel this movie was flippin sweet it still will it is very sweet to treat to it is full of love its a very good movie. -- " Annihilation By The Hands Of God 21:47, 12 March 2008 (UTC) *cool maybe I'll watch that movie... -- penubag (talk) 00:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC) *Hello yeah it was not my idea but i seen Step Up 2 it was awsome seriously i loved it also related news says that i am in love with Demon Hunter really i love them. -- " The Annihilator 00:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC) *Gosh I hate Internet Explorer, why does it always have to be problematic? I hate making my page compatible with that stupid browser. If anyone reads this, please for god's sake, get firefox! (it's a free download, might as well get it)-- penubag (talk) 01:02, 10 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Hello myself! -- penubag (talk) 03:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC) }}[reply]

Template:G has been used for the following templates in the past:

{{G1}}, for speedy deletion as patent nonsense
{{G&S-Stub}}, now migrated to Wikipedia:WikiProject Gilbert and Sullivan/Proposed stub type by a series of moves-without-redirects
{{Spaces}}, for non-breaking spaces

This is an unused template to list other templates associated with a similar title or shortcut.
If an internal transclusion led you here, you may wish to change it to point directly to the intended page.

{{Template disambiguation}} shouldn't be transcluded in the talk namespaces.

When writing in the shoutbox, please make new shouts on the top of the box and expect replies in the shoutbox as well. Click the above link or here to shout!

Reply

I'm glad you've been able to get a computer! The addon is Update Scanner [2] I've also created an subpage where you can find other nifty addons. User:Penubag/optimum toolsets You might find some other nice addons, so take a look. -- penubag (talk) 03:16, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, no computer. But Firefox can be enhanced on this workstation on a session-by-session basis.

The reason I asked was because I'm writing the next newsletter, and there's a section on Watching tips.

That's a nice list. By the way, I've added a link to it in a hatnote on WP:OTS.

The Transhumanist 20:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for linking to my subpage. I've always wanted to inform people of the tools that I've spent hours looking up and trying. Newsletter as in Signpost? That's awesome! -- penubag (talk) 21:06, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, the newsletter is the frequent project update I send to the team. (I use a mailing list). :) The Transhumanist 21:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Update on the Outline of knowledge WikiProject & Geography WikiProject (Country outlines workgroup) - 04/16/2009

Momentum in the development of the outlines is continuing to build, even though we haven't added any new outlines lately. Plenty of work is being done on the outlines we already have.

Keep up the good work everyone!

Inspiration!

Kudos go to Buaidh, who has dived head first into outline development, continuing improvement of the country outlines, and doing so vigorously. Take a look at his contribs. He has taken the initiative and has been expanding those outlines' design and coverage. Be sure to let him know what you think of his work!

Coming soon: the Super Huge Expansion (it will be really really big)

Excitement (mine at least) is building as we approach the Super Huge Expansion, during which notices will be placed on thousands of subject talk pages and their corresponding WikiProjects (see below concerning which ones). Though not all on the same day! - this will take place over a period of weeks or months, because it's best not to open the flood gates all at once.

The existing outlines should serve as strong examples for editors who wish to develop new outlines, and so we need to complete them as much as we can before we start to take this to the next level (in about 3 months). The rewrite of the outline article (the draft, which explains outlines in detail), and the guideline on outlines and outline development, also need to be completed before the transcendence begins. These will help guide the decisions and actions of editors, and reduce confusion.

Projected outline, at the OOK WikiProject page

What's next? Where is the Outline of knowledge headed?

Well, it will grow, to encompass all of human knowledge.

But, is there a plan?

YES!!!

Currently under construction on the Outline of knowledge WikiProject page is a version of the outline that will display links to all the outline pages currently in the encyclopedia proper, links to all outline drafts, and redlinks to all planned outline drafts.

You can help. Please place links to the remaining drafts in there (with complete pagenames so we can easily tell they are drafts). Once all the draft pages are placed, please look over the overall outline for gaps in coverage, and add missing subjects. I expect there are thousands of missing subjects extensive enough to benefit from being outlined. New subjects should be included as red draft links. Thank you.

But it's not just an editing task list...

During the upcoming "Super Huge Expansion" (mentioned above), the article talk page and WikiProject for each of the subjects listed on the projected outline will receive a notice requesting the creation and development of the outline page for that subject. Each notice will also explain how a subject's outline will integrate into the Outline of knowledge and into Wikipedia's navigation system as a whole.

See Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge#Projected outline.

Topic lists

The nice thing about a reverse outline is that it turns up problems that exist in the publication being outlined, which provides opportunities to fix them. Since we get very little or no opposition to fixing problems even on sets of hundreds of pages, we've been plowing through them.

One of the biggest problems in Wikipedia that our work on the Outline of knowledge has uncovered so far is with the set of topics lists. Their titles, in the forms "List of x topics" and "List of x-related topics" are ambiguous, and they are not the most common terms for describing their content. See WP:COMMONNAME. To make matters worse, the set is divided between 2 competing types/sets of pages: alphabetical indexes, and outlines.

In an effort to sort out this mess, the indexes are being renamed, and the outlines are being reformatted and moved, or merged, into the Outline of knowledge.

So far, almost 300 topic lists have been renamed to indexes. Nobody has objected to the names chosen, but one editor has expressed reservation on the approach - he was concerned it would cause confusion by having 2 title standards in place at the same time for these. Though he himself was not confused, nor did he object to the titles. And nobody else has expressed confusion or dissatisfaction with the new titles either. It has been over 2 weeks since the renaming has begun, and since no confusion seems to have been caused, and since there is no opposition to the new names, I plan to continue with the renaming.

Also, one topic list has been merged into its corresponding outline so far: List of transport topics was merged into Outline of transport. It turned out very good. List of cell biology topics is currently being merged into Outline of cell biology (see the link dump in hidden comments at the end of the outline).

I'm not sure how many lists have "topics" in their titles, but Google turned up 788, and these appear to include the ones that have already been renamed to indexes. Subtracting those renamed so far, there are about 500 more to go.

Watching tips

I thought you might want to compare notes on the methods we use to watch over the outlines. Here's how I keep an eye on things...

My watchlist had so many thousands of articles in it that I finally just deleted them all. Now I have it set so that I have to manually add pages to be watched, and I use it only to watch trouble spots and collaborations I'm participating in.

Because I like to watch specific sets of pages at a time, I use "Related changes" on list pages. That way the results are not watered down with edits from pages I'm not immediately concerned with.

I always use WP:POP and Related changes together. With POP installed, you go to a link list, like User:Buaidh/Country outlines of the Americas, then click on "Related changes" in the toolbox menu, and then hover the mouse cursor over the diff and hist links so you can look at those without clicking on them.

It's pretty fast.

The technique turns Wikipedia's list system into a crystal ball.

Update Scanner

Penubag recommends Update Scanner, which is a Firefox add-on that periodically scans pages and pings you when a change is detected. You can even set its level of sensitivity for each scanned page (e.g., "ignore changes of 100 words or less").

I'd use it, but I don't have a computer. :(

See also WP:OTS for more power tools and techniques, and User:Penubag/optimum toolsets for some more nice addons, that do a variety of things.

I'm always looking for new power tools and power skills, so if you know of any, please share (let me know)!

The Transhumanist 04:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.: Penubag, I think I can get the outline article and outline guidelines done within 3 months (including feedback and finetuning). At that time, assuming I'm done, I'll ask Thehelfulone and Juliancolton to start placing the notices around Wikipedia. To support the growing amount of effort that will likely be directed upon the Outline of knowledge and its branches from then on, what awards do you think we should have in place by then? I look forward to your reply.

Do not read this one - The Hunt - Outline of knowledge WikiProject - 04/17/2009

While surveying libraries, their outline-related resources, and our coverage of them, I came across something funny...

What subclass is the Bible in the Library of Congress Classification?

Do you think they'd like this one at WP:DYK?

(Nope. They didn't.) :)

Libraries

For months, I've been sitting at a terminal in one of the largest libraries in the country, and I haven't even looked around at the available resources.

Until a few days ago.

I'm overwhelmed.

When compared to libraries, Wikipedia is small. (See Digest of Education Statistics 2008, Chapter 7:Libraries and Educational Technology Libraries, and turn to page 617).

But is that a fair comparison?

Yes.

Why?

Because we have growth potential. :)

And we cover everything, including libraries!

Guess what else I found?

Hunting for outlines

I began to study libraries and librarians, since they are experts in organizing knowledge. And of course I turned to Wikipedia to see what we had on the things I came across...

And while doing so I kept running into outlines on Wikipedia that are not (yet) part of the Outline of knowledge.

When I come across non-OOK outlines, generally I rename them, and reformat them to our standard outline format. But there is the occasional exception.

Here are some outlines I just added:

List of energy topics --> Outline of energy (it converted great)
List of Dewey Decimal classes --> Outline of Dewey Decimal classes (no conversion)
Library of Congress Classification --> ??? (no rename, no conversion)

The last 2 are outlines by their very nature, and so our standard outline subheadings didn't seem to fit. So I left them as is.

I renamed the first 2, but the last one is the name of the outline, that is, the topic itself is an outline, and that outline is presented as the article's content, so I left the name as is. For now. This needs more thought.

Of course, that's not all. Concerning those last 2 outlines above...

Alternate outlines of knowledge

...not only are they outlines, but they are outlines of knowledge! Well, the top few levels, at least.

Uh, so?

What happens if we linkify them? :)

That is, what happens if we linkify their classifications to Wikipedia's outlines? :) :) :)

They become alternate top ends to the OOK

Yep.

What can you find?

I challenge you to find some "hidden" outlines.

I dare you to take a look around Wikipedia for hidden outlines (that is, outlines not yet hooked into the OOK), and add your kills to WP:WPOOK#The hunt for hidden outlines.

My trophies are already there.

May the hunt begin!

The Transhumanist 20:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Request for help

I've been rewriting the Outline article from scratch.

Before I move it to article space, it needs to be finished and completely referenced.

I need your help on it.

The Transhumanist 01:11, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No flagged revisions category up for deletion

The category associated with the no flagged revisions userbox you have placed on your user page is up for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009 April 23#Category:Wikipedia users who oppose Flagged Revisions and you are invited to share your opinions on the issue. Alansohn (talk) 05:24, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nintendo Dsi

I have... Err... recreated the Dsi you ordered at Graphic Lab. Tell me what you think. It is at File:Dsi white closed upright.svg Tell me what you think! Please reply on my talk page, as I would like that! :P--Goldblattster (talk) 19:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I traced it using Inkscape. I can't afford illustrator, so that's it. :P --Goldblattster (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Secant line is NOT about the secant function

I find this edit and this one very unfortunate and I've undone them and added a dablink to the top of the article titled secant line saying that the trigonometric secant function is not what the article is about.

You really should have read the article titled secant line before doing those edits. You would have found out that it's about a different topic. You should also look at the secant disambiguation page, which also explains that these are two different topics. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Outline of knowledge WikiProject update 05/10/2009

Development is moving steadily forward. We haven't created any new outlines lately, but a lot of editing of our existing outlines is taking place. Take a look at Buaidh's contributions. :)

I'm impressed.

I can safely say we now have another fanatic working on the project.

Importance of watching

A big danger to new pages or pages that have low traffic are prods. These are deletion proposals that don't have to go through AfD. If a prod sits on a page, any page, 5 days without opposition, the page can be deleted without discussion.

Such pages can be undeleted without discussion too, but there's usually a delay, especially if you don't notice the page missing right away. Prods create undesirable gaps in the subject coverage of list sets.

I just caught one the other day, so keep an eye on the outline pages!

Tangent: Indexes

One of the benefits of reverse outlining is the discovery of problems (gaps in coverage, etc.) with the publication being outlined. We've come across several and have been fixing those as we go. Because hypertext tables of contents are only as good as the pages they link to, we've been cleaning up large sections of Wikipedia. This was something I did not foresee when I started this project.

One of the sets of pages we link to on the outlines is the set of indexes, formerly called "List of x topics". Unfortunately, the lists of topics were divided between 2 different sets competing for the same article names, and this impeded development of both sets. One of those sets were indexes, and the rest are outlines (more about these below).

So I set about splitting up the 2 sets, by renaming the indexes to "Index of x articles" or "Index of x-related articles".

All 450 or so of them.

Nobody has complained about the new names, but 2 or 3 people thought I was way too bold to attempt this without a proposal or discussion first. Just 2 or 3 people. That's about as much opposition as you could expect for moving a single page.

Not bad for a move of this volume.

There are many more indexes out there, but our main concern are those which are provided links on the outlines. Many of those are redlinks (gaps in coverage as mentioned above), and so we need a way to track these and direct editor attention to them so that somebody creates them...

So, I've created a page for the set, that parallels the OOK list:

See Portal:Contents/Index.

The complete list of "Index of" articles can be found at User:The Transhumanist/Index, and this list needs to be gone over to make sure each article index listed is included on the portal page above. If you help with this, please put - placed after each entry that you check and place.

Thank you.

To further support the development of index pages, and provide a central place for people to go to find out more about indexes and what needs to be done, I've created the Index WikiProject.

Hidden outlines

There are outline pages hiding all over Wikipedia. They aren't in OOK's formats, but we can fix that. :)

Converting existing outlines and absorbing them into the OOK is a lot easier than creating outlines from scratch, and it avoids unnecessary duplication of effort. But before we can convert them, we have to find them...

A hunt is underway for non-OOK outlines. So far, User:Gimme danger is in the lead and has found the most. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge#The hunt for hidden outlines for more information.

Please don't rename any non-standard outlines you come across to OOK's standard naming until after you reformat them. Renaming them only after they are reformatted helps us keep track of which outlines have and have not been converted.

Thank you.

Converting outlines

The way I usually do this is by substituting the relevant outline generator template at the beginning of the outline, which forces the existing outline to the bottom of the page. Then I add an "under construction" tag, and then move all the links from the original outline to the relevant sections in the standard structure. It is important to finish the conversion quickly, so as not to create confusion. Then I scour Wikipedia for missing links (using Google to do a site-specific search of Wikipedia), to make the upgraded outline more comprehensive than the converted outline. Be sure to check all related categories too. Add a lead paragraph, add external links, and voila!

Better than before.

Where we're heading

The next phase in the evolution of this project is to increase participation by expanding the Wikipedia community's awareness of the Outline of knowledge, its purpose, and what needs to be done for any given subject.

This will entail placing banners on the outlines' talk pages, the talk page for the WikiProject associated with the subject of each outline and of each planned outline, and on the talk page of each article corresponding to each outline and to each planned outline.

Then instructions on improving subject access, including the creation and development of an outline for each subject, will be posted on every related WikiProject page. (There's a WikiProject for the subject of most outlines).

We will also be sending notices to every member of every WikiProject associated with the subject of each and every outline and planned outline.

But before this happens, the outline guidelines and the article draft for the topic "Outline" must be completed. Without these, many editors will not know what an outline is, or what to do to build and improve them.

And that's our current bottleneck.

Once those are ready (the guideline and article), we can take this project to the next level.

Keep up the good work

Well, that's all for now.

Until next time,

The Transhumanist 23:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. (Penubag)

We'll definitely need the rest of the awards in place before we take the project to the next level.

I'm not sure how long it will take me to finish up the "bottleneck". The guidelines are almost done and were easy to write. But the outline article draft is proving to be a real pain in the...

I'm finding it hard to pull away from editing outlines in order to read up on them. :)

But it shouldn't take me too long once I do.

Just a heads up.

The Transhumanist 23:58, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Transhumanist! Could you please clarify what you mean by "We'll definitely need the rest of the awards in place before we take the project to the next level." What do you mean by "awards in place"? Are you referring to the creation of specific topic awards such as for medicine? -- penubag (talk) 07:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I meant "awards done", "ready", "prepared", "completed", "finished". :) You mentioned that you could easily make medals for various subjects (like medicine). (Though "Health" would be better than medicine). I guess we should start at the top, and move down the hierarchy if time permits. Here's the top of our hierarchy: the broadest subjects besides Geography are Culture, Art, Health, History, Mathematics, Natural science, People, Self, Philosophy, Thought, Religion, Spirituality, Society, Social Science, and Technology.

I'm going to guess :) at what your next question will be: "When will the "next level" be?" Well, there are 3 things that need to be done before we can transcend: 1) Guidelines, 2) Projected Outline, and 3) Outline article. I'm almost done with the outline guidelines, but we keep running into editors who don't seem to know what an outline is. For example, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Outline of South Africa.

To transcend to the "next level" we'll be placing or sending thousands of notices, and this could compound the problem. If there are too many confused people, they could conceivably join together and form a consensus based on ignorance and misassumptions. And that would be bad. :(

Therefore, I've been working on a draft to replace the article Outline that will define outlines more thoroughly, so that we can point to it from all of our notices, from the guidelines, and from the OOK WikiProject and anywhere else the OOK is introduced or discussed. That article draft is our main bottleneck at this time.

Once the article and the projected outline presented at WP:WPOOK#Projected outline are completed, we'll start our expansion phase of operations.

The guidelines might take another week. I could probably finish the projected outline in a few days after that. But the article draft may take a few weeks (it must be impeccably referenced, and this will require a lot of reading).

I'm doing a little recruiting as well, and if the right people join the effort this could speed things up. But I'm not holding my breath.

The Transhumanist 23:21, 13 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Great! I've been itching for a new graphics project! (sorry I hadn't realized this earlier). I'll be fairly busy for a while, but I'll start cranking those out in no time! Also thanks for the status update, I'll also be happy to design the templates, if you need someone to.

Also, on an unrelated note, I found a FF addon that made me think of you, tell me if SnapLinks [3] help you at all. It can quickly open many links at once (screenshot)-- penubag (talk) 05:49, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of text would you like on each of the medallions? Would you like to keep it at "Wikipedia World Developer"? -- penubag (talk) 00:37, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It should match each subject. "World" goes good with countries development and geography. Work on finding images to add to the medals, and I'll brainstorm some names.

Culture: ?
Art: ?
Health: ?
History: ?
Mathematics: ?
Natural science: ?
People: ?
Self: ?
Philosophy: ?
Thought: ?
Religion: ?
Spirituality: ?
Society: ?
Social Science: ?
Technology: ?

I'm drawing a blank at the moment. But I'll think of something. :) What awards did the Wizard of Oz give out? The Transhumanist 03:08, 15 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A couple questions for you...

What are the benefits of a tree structure?

The article doesn't say.

I'm interested, because I need to explain the benefits in the guideline on outlines I'm writing. (Outlines are a type of tree structure).

I've also asked the question at various reference desks, and these threads may help to jump start your brain on this question. :)

What are the benefits of outlines, over and above regular articles?

What benefits have you noticed?

How are Wikipedia's outlines useful to you?

I look forward to your answers on my talk page.

The Transhumanist 04:34, 14 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Came across this

In all the symbol-hunting you've been having me do, I came across this: Dragon Rouge.

Too bad it belongs to a cult. It would make a pretty cool medallion. :)

The Transhumanist 20:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's sweet! Maybe I can make a some thing that looks like that but not exactly. -- penubag (talk) 02:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WPOOK Update - 05/17/2009 - Blockbusting!

This project needs another shot in the arm.

So here it goes...

Countries WikiProject Collaboration - Contests!

I've contacted all 59 members of the Countries WikiProject to help in designing and conducting contests for the further development of the country outlines.

You are invited too.

Houston, we have a problem

The guidelines and outline article still aren't complete.

Which means you will be needed to help explain to the newcomers mentioned above what outlines are and how to develop them.

Please participate in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries#Hosting country coverage contests.

The Transhumanist 22:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An idea for a contest

To promote work on the country outlines, maybe a contest between country WikiProjects could be run, to see which WikiProject could develop the best country outline.

What do you think?

(I look forward to your reply on my talk page).

The Transhumanist 23:49, 18 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure. There is less than ideal participation from the individual Wikiprojects and may only attract a few, if any, enthusiastic participants. Perhaps individually contacting and challenging the most highly active and participating users from the WProjects to a face-off may rally more support from their peers, who will in turn be ready for your next contest. But we're going to have to make this look big; lots of templates, formatting, and pretty colors. -- penubag (talk) 06:45, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that if the notices were just posted on the WikiProject talk pages, they might not get much response. But I was planning on having notices posted everywhere possible, including to all country WikiProject members, to the talk pages of the country outlines, and to the talk pages of the corresponding country articles. To the talk page of the Geography and Countries WikiProjects, and of course to the WP:CBB. Actually, there's a notice for it on the WP:CBB already. :)

Perhaps we should post notices and banners.

The only other place I can think of announcing this would be the Signpost. Could be intersting.

Wait, just thought of more. Maybe check the histories of the various country-related articles (country, "government of", "geography of", "culture of", etc. and contact active editors?

I like your idea of impressive notices and a big promotion campaign.

How much of a build-up period (count-down) do you think we should have before the starting date of the contest? Post the count-down on the CBB? (change the date-count each day?)

What if editors start editing before the start-date?

And what about Buaidh and I, who are already editing these things on a frequent basis?

The Transhumanist 22:24, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last I checked at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countries#Country_outline_contest_proposal, I hadn't seen any discussion taking place at all, but that was premature and I hadn't realized that it wasn't long after you posted there since I looked. But now I see at least 3 other interested editors, which is great. What we should do is make them sign up under a "participants" list so they feel committed to continue. We also need a centralized page for the contest (which will look fancy) with a huge count-down timer until the start of the contest. The reason we need a centralized page just for the contest is to keep it organized. I rather found it hard to keep up when there were countless user subpages of lists of articles. I originally had no idea what exactly the project was that I was making all the awards for. I looked a lot of places to find out but eventually became bored and just did everything you told me to. And other users won't be willing to spend the time to do this. I don't mean to sound bad or anything but I feel other users must have felt the same way, and the lack communication between the other users is less than ideal for motivation. Organization is key. On this centralized page, you can post your weekly news and updates; let's just hope it doesn't go to MfD. Anyways...(sorry there :) )..what we can do to obtain maximum participants is to reach out to the individual directly. This is a lot of work, but it will be worth it. "Hello username, I've noticed you've been doing a great job editing x and think you will be a worthy opponent in [[Around the World Competition]]. If you win the championship, you will be awarded a golden trophy and be titled "Champion of Whatever". I feel you have a chance at winning! Care to give it a shot?" I can help with recruiting a few people as well some of the other members. Also, advertising to reinforce the depth of this competition will be good to the user, whether invited or not, as they would feel they are a part of something important and big. You mentioned posting on the Signpost and banners in various places, which is perfect. Put banners on talk pages (which should be more invitational than of a notice), project pages, etc to rally support. Once we've gathered the participants, make it very clear they will be awarded even if they don't win but if they try hard and put effort. This might get rid of the bystander effect along with deindividuation (which in simple terms explains the phenomenon that if a large group exists, the individual is less likely to put an effort). Anyways, I'm just on a rant so just take everything as advice; do what you think is right. Also, I've replied to your transparency request on my talkpage and updated /graphics. -- penubag (talk) 03:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The work on the outline of knowledge has been decentralized up until now because it was essentially a proposal. Rather than posting a formal proposal at WP:VPR about making it, we instead just started making it to display it in partially completed form (i.e., developed it in place) as a model that the whole project will be based on. Why? Because how do you describe what we've built? It was far more practical to build it and show it. You can't really understand the outlines until you've seen and used them.

I tried the proposal process on part of the OOK project, a rename of the page set, and most of the participants didn't even know what I was talking about (they didn't seem to know what a topic outline was), and most of them didn't return to the discussion after their initial post (and vote) to read the explanations. Hence the alternate approach. And due to this, I couldn't post a centralized page for a contest on a project that was being developed from our talk pages.

As for contests, "Around the World" is dead. It no longer exists. That approach was thoroughly rejected. Burned with fire. This is a totally new contest concept. (Though we don't have a name for it yet). And rather than going straight to hosting and posting this new contest, we're getting community input, so that design flaws in the contest itself can be avoided, and so that any reservations can be dealt with and worked out in the contest's design.

Rather than individual contestants, the contest proposal is for WikiProjects to be the contestants. Formal teams wouldn't work well, because what do you do if a non-team member drops in and edits the page? The WikiProject will be rewarded. I guess participants could post templates designed for them on their talk page, similar to how they post their own userboxes.

Though the dynamics of the award process has yet to be worked out. But, tracking the edits of individual contestants would be virtually impossible - it would take longer than the edits themselves.

And since the Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries is sponsoring the contest, it makes sense to make the contest's central page a subpage of that WikiProject, though this hasn't been decided upon either. It's up to the group discussing it all.

I think the WikiProjects, or anyone on behalf of the various WikiProjects, should recruit participants to work on each WikiProject's respective country outline.

Just throwing in some ideas. Nothing's been worked out yet. But one thing is for sure, you and I need to keep fanning the flames so the fire doesn't go out. :)

The Transhumanist 04:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand now, thanks for explaining. It could have just been good to have been wp:BOLD and start the pages but I see that the entire thing and what to do was largely unknown. You have some intresting ideas, and the part of tracking each individual edit is going to be tough. Maybe we can employ a few referees to oversee a few editors to provide a few diffs of their work. We've still got to think this through. -- penubag (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Request concerning "What a brilliant idea barnstar"

		What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar
		message The Transhumanist 23:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:Barnstar-lightbulb3.png

Someone changed the picture. (See the first version in the file history).

While the new picture works great for the technology barnstar, I don't think those tech guys knew that the pic was also used in this other barnstar award.

Can you make a new image using the original version? Or a version of this...

Someone tried to revive the original at File:"What a Brilliant Idea!" Barnstar.png, but they failed to reproduce the transparent background.

Would you revive/reproduce the barnstar, with transparent background?

Good luck.

Have fun.

The Transhumanist 23:09, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like they have a transparent background to me.

Am I missing something? -- penubag (talk) 02:18, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It was the computer I was looking at them on. (A different library system). On this computer, the transparencies look normal. Sorry 'bout that. (sheepish grin). The Transhumanist 04:59, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, the barnstar template is fixed: Template:What a Brilliant Idea Barnstar. The Transhumanist 05:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, no problem. I'm glad to help wherever possible, even if I didn't help. Just go ahead and ask about anything else. -- penubag (talk) 17:50, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Has the shit hit the fan? - WPOOK update, 05/25/2009

Maybe...

We've started the next phase

I was experiencing mental block on the article draft for "outline" and on the outline guideline draft. And this was holding the whole project back. Without these (which are intended to explain the type of lists known as outlines in detail), the danger is higher that a controversy could go the wrong way.

I requested help on them, but there was none forthcoming.

So I went ahead and started us on the next phase of operations without those 2 pages...

Our AWB'ers and I have placed about 1600 notices all over Wikipedia. And the plan is to place several thousand more.

This generated only one complaint, but it was a very vocal one, and attracted a few other detractors who seemed unfamiliar with the concept of hierarchical outlines and their benefits. However, just as many or more editors came to the defense of the OOK, and there was no consensus formed. But, dab is still trying to rally opposition to outlines at the Village Pump. See below...

Administrator noticeboard incident and Village Pump policy discussion

It appears that the banner placed on the talk page of the Outline of Switzerland caught the attention of an editor named Dbachmann who posted a rather forceful message on my talk page, another on WT:WPOOK, another at WP:VPP, and still another at WP:AN!

He went well out of his way to use negative hype to cause a stir.

It appears that Mr. Bachmann doesn't understand the nature of hierarchical outlines and their applications. And though he implied that he has never seen an OOK outline before, he was involved with a discussion on these when they were called "lists of basic topics".

His primary argument is that outlines are content forks of articles, and violate WP:CFORK.

But "topic lists", of which outlines are a type, have been around for almost as long as Wikipedia, and fall under the WP:LISTS and WP:STAND guidelines. They aren't intended as forks, as they are lists, bringing the benefits of lists to the corresponding subjects, such as grouping and navigation.

Someone suggested an MfD, but lists are articles, and are within the jurisdiction of AfD. Only the portal page, which merely lists the outline articles, falls within the scope of the MfD department.

The administrator's noticeboard was considered the wrong venue for the discussion, and the discussion was closed.

But Dab's discussion at the Village Pump is still active. Hopefully level heads will prevail there too.

Now what?

Am I disheartened or deterred? Hell no. I say "full steam ahead!"

But we really need to finish the article draft and the guideline. Otherwise there will continue to be confusion.

Over the next week or two, we'll be posting another 1600 or so notices. It's a good thing we didn't send out 10,000 of them all at once. :)

The Transhumanist 23:18, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.: Another related thread has popped up at WP:VPR#OoK's expediency. --TT 04:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

WPOOK update - 05/27/2009

Input on the OOK threads at the Village Pump has died down (at both WP:VPP and WP:VPR), and there is currently no consensus on either.

Negative feedback

For the number of notices we posted (over a thousand) the number of complaints we received (the two VP threads mentioned above) was quite low.

Silent majority

Considering most of the outlines are orphans, they get pretty good use.

Note that people who are happy with articles on Wikipedia generally don't say anything, so I simply interpret it as positive feedback.

Traffic, traffic comparison, and increasing traffic

Using Traffic, I compare the traffic of articles, their corresponding outlines, and their corresponding portals from time to time.

Outlines are starting to catch up to portals. Though the main portals, which are included in a navbar menu at the top of most portals are still way ahead of their outline counterparts.

Both outlines and portals are way behind the articles on the same subjects. Articles usually have 20 to 30 times the traffic.

Keep in mind that most outlines are orphans, with the primary link to them being Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge.

Traffic should improve once we include links on the corresponding subject pages, including the main subject as well as subjects that correspond to subheadings (e.g., History of x, and in the case of countries: Geography of x, Demographics of x, Culture of x, etc.)

I'm convinced the traffic of outlines will overtake portals once we've link-integrated them into the encyclopedia. And since outlines serve as tables of contents for each subject, it seems most fitting to place links to them in the form of hatnotes at the top of each subject's main articles (and the sub-subjects mentioned in the paragraph directly above).

By the way, there's another traffic counter called Wikirank, but I haven't tested it out much yet, but will do so in the coming weeks.

Going for the Main Page

Once the traffic of outlines has overtaken portals, it will be time to replace portals on the Main Page, even if we need to spearhead a new main page redesign! This isn't a far-fetched idea. I was the one who jumpstarted and led the project responsible for the current main page design (until it hit critical mass and attracted other leaders), and I was also the most active editor on that project. I even created the WP:CBB on the Community Portal to promote the main page election. The second time around should be easier.

Back to the here and now

Targetting the Main Page is a few months off.

Right now, we need to continue posting notices and start link-integrating the OOK into the encyclopedia.

I have a whole slew of AWB tasks to assign. I hope you are ready. :)

Spread the word

WP:WPOOK needs members. Tell all your friends about the OOK, and get them to join.

The Transhumanist 02:47, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why do we have outlines in addition to...?

Wikipedia:Outlines was growing so large that I split this section off as a separate page.

I look forward to your feedback and improvements.

The Transhumanist 22:36, 29 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Formal Mediation for Sports Logos

As a contributor to Wikipedia_talk:Non-free_content/RFC_on_use_of_sports_team_logos, you have been included in a request for formal mediation regarding the subject at Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Use of Sports Logos. With your input and agreement to work through mediation, it is hoped we can achieve a lasting solution. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:39, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Penubag, get a load of this awards page

Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Awards

Let me know what you think.

The Transhumanist 03:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's good, but I think we can do better! Once we have a physical page to work on I'll start working on a draft and you can tell me what you think. -- penubag (talk) 23:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More WP:WPOOK graphics thingies needed

Penubag,

We could sure use a userbox for the outline of knowledge wikiproject.

And an advert added to Template:Wikipedia ads would be cool. My guess is you'll find this one interesting and challenging (most of the adverts are animated!). The template is displayed on over 2000 user pages, so that would be quite a bit of exposure. Please look into it and let me know what you think.

Last but not least, we need an invitation template, to invite people to the project. It would be nice if it had an image on there.

Not to overload you or anything. :)

The Transhumanist 02:47, 2 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not perfect at animated GIFs and not even sure if the software on my computer has this capability. I'll drop you a note about this, but I think I'll be able to help out. As for the userbox and template, that sounds fun and I'll finish those soon. -- penubag (talk) 23:56, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, spent a few hours learning how to make animated gifs and can say with confidence that I can do it. Do you have any specific idea for the ad? -- penubag (talk) 07:23, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Penubag, look at the top of these pages

For a topical guide to this subject, see Outline of Fu Manchu.

See each page, and then look at them in the edit window.

I didn't place any more because this is a test run to see how the hatnotes and their placement work (they're placed after any redir and disambig notes), and to gather feedback.

The Transhumanist 04:11, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you did an excellent job! Now we need someone with AWB... Once outlines have been around longer and have become in widespread use, the next ultimate step would be to have a small link in the top right corner of the actual TOC to the outline. That would be awesome! -- penubag (talk) 23:49, 5 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that simple. See User talk:The Transhumanist#OoK, Wikipedia talk:Outlines#top of article reference to outline is unnecessary spam, and WP:HATNOTE. As Quiddity said, "Slow and steady wins the race; hasty promotion will attract more vitriol than support." Which is why I only posted to about 30 outlines (instead of all 500). But he was suggesting slower still: "considering the current quality of most of the outlines". But I've been working on these since 2005. I'm not satisfied with the previous pace, or the current pace. I'm for acceleration.

Quiddity's philosophy seems to be, link to the contents stuff once it is high quality. Unfortunately, that sets up a catch-22: we need more editors, who aren't going to find the pages in the first place if we don't link to them. He maintained the same stance when I proposed to put "Contents" on the sidebar menu. Fortunately, the Wikipedia community felt differently. As Shenme put it:

A 'normal' wiki usually doesn't have a core structure, and so people don't expect it, but Wikipedia has quite a lot of material, and various ways of organizing it. Having a link in the sidebar to the contents page will help people to discover what organization there is. (whether perfect or not a separate topic). And, actually, pointing people to the contents page and getting their resulting comments will improve the page. Don't wait for the improvements first... Shenme 04:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, each of the outlines is to its subject as the contents page is to Wikipedia, so the same reasoning applies with respect to a hatnote at the top of each subject's main article.

The problem is, when you try something new on Wikipedia, the most likely people to respond will be complainers. Too many complainers = consensus. It's a quirk in the system. I ran into that problem when I tried to overhaul the Community Portal (my overhaul was rejected, except for the WP:CBB, but I was able to salvage a large part of my work as the Wikipedia:Department directory).

So, if you can expect to get one complaint for every 30 hatnotes placed, 500 hatnotes = 16 complaints = overwhelming opposing consensus, unless others come to your rescue. Because of this, I'm truly amazed that the namechange on the outlines and the indexes went through without a glitch (though renaming a few at a time would have been more confusing and would have made them seem even more out of place).

But Quiddity means well. He's not against the project, he's just against our approach. He has referred to me as "extremely confident", and to the project as "audacious", both of which terms have negative connotations.

I don't think you realize just how many times I've had to defend the outlines. Every complaint must be answered, because if they are not, they are more likely to attract agreeing posts by others who see only one side of the story. It's the "me too" or "pile-on" effect. Not catching the threads before they spiral out of control has been my biggest worry. When there's only one defender, it only takes two others to override him to form an opposing consensus. For an example of one that was localized, see talk:List of opera topics.

The Transhumanist 20:38, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S.: I just reverted Outline of science, which one of OOK's most vociferous opponents redirected to Science, calling the outline a "cfork". A flurry of shit like this happens every time we make a major push. Dbachman surfaced after the placement of the banners to article talk pages. He apparently sees outlines as copies of or competitors to the articles. - TT 21:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.P.S.: The hatnotes are already starting to disappear. -TT 22:53, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree that slow and steady is the best. AWB may actually not be the best and now I can better understand the problem here. You said Quiddity wants to link to information once it's been developed, but information won't grow unless it's linked and well known. I'm not really sure how to resolve this dilemma. -- penubag (talk) 05:07, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do. We all need to watch. As in use our watchlists religiously. Every time we log on. That will increase awareness of what is going on, especially what discussions are taking place. Participation in consensus-building is key. See #On the bright side, you've got to see this..., below. The Transhumanist 00:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I know you're tied up in a library, but the best Firefox addon for this is SiteDelta. It is similar to Update Scanner but SiteDelta is far better for this purpose as it is built around the scanning pages that don't change often. It may even be worth saving your firefox preferences on an external drive and loading it on your workstation. This is really useful because it would be like having 2 separate watchlists with on-demand scan. One dedicated entirely to OOK. Try it out and let me know what you think. -- penubag (talk) 03:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Outline update - Good news and bad news - 06/08/2009

The big push continues.

And it seems to be working!

The good news is that there's growing support for outlines, and there are more editors than ever editing them!

The bad news is that the complainers are disproportionately represented on the project's various talk pages. While many editors work diligently on the front end, a handful of complainers are trying to tear down the project behind the scenes. Fortunately, barely enough supporters have been watching those pages that no consensus for moving or merging the outlines has succeeded. So far...

Big problem: ignorance of what outlines are for and their benefits

Most of the opposition seems to be unaware of the complete range of what outlines are used for. They just don't get it.

This is why it is important to complete the outline article draft. An article with a comprehensive treatment of outlines would be the perfect place to refer anybody unfamiliar with outlines to.

Opposers also don't seem to understand how outlines differ from some other page type that they prefer. Some think articles are good enough as an overview, others think portals are more in-depth, still others think categories or navigation boxes are the most efficient and useful way to organize and present topical information. Some have simply never seen an "Outline of" page before and think they are a new type of page (they've been around under other names since 2001).

If you run across anyone who doesn't understand the role of outlines on Wikipedia, Wikipedia:Why do we have outlines in addition to...? might help reduce their misconceptions or uncertainties about outlines.

On the bright side, you've got to see this...

To add the outlines and related support pages to your watchlist (takes less than 30 seconds), cut and paste them from Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist into your raw watchlist. For a way to improve the display of your watchlist - by namespace (very useful) - see Watchlist sorter, or use the "super fast upgrade" at WP:OTS.

Or go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Watchlist using Related changes (currently without the talk pages) and click on "Related changes" in the toolbox menu on the sidebar on the left side of your screen.

The big push

The big push started with about a thousand banners and notices being placed on article talk pages all over Wikipedia.

But it didn't stop there...

Welcome our new members...

The following Wikipedians have joined the OOK team.

Be sure to stop by their talk pages and introduce yourselves.

Tarheel95 - going after the Main Page.
Vivio Testarossa / Feinoha - here to help.
Burningview - made a splash at MfD with Wikipedia:WikiProject Outline of knowledge/Drafts/Outline of British Columbia (see the talk page for the MfD link - lots of support there).

Enter the mentors!

I asked a bunch of mentors at WP:ADOPT for advice. Several of them answered on my talk page. Most of those who replied were happy to help, and posted some very good ideas. A couple even joined the project.

Here are their ideas, and what is being done about them. A few of the tasks still need volunteers:

Strdst grl: Create and place project banners - already Done
Strdst grl & The Earwig: put an animated ad for the project in WP:BANNER - Our graphics specialist Penubag is looking into it.
Strdst grl: Create a userbox for the project - assigned to Penubag.
Garden: Ask to have outlines added to next year's WikiCup competition - Done (proposal posted)
Tarheel95: Add a link to Portal:Contents/Outline of knowledge to the Main Page - Tarheel95 is taking on the creation of the proposal
SriMesh: Create an outreach subpage to WPOOK - Done (invitation coming soon, see below)
SriMesh: (Create a newsletter archive subpage) - Done
SriMesh: Add a feed to AlexNewArtBot to gather links to new outlines and post them on a page. Then personally invite new creators to the project. - who wants to tackle the feed?
SriMesh: Assign someone to monitor the outlines via watchlist, and invite new outline editors to the project - any volunteers?
Related: Create an invitation - Penubag is working on it.
SriMesh: Create Template:Expand outline similar to Template:Expand list, which adds each outline it is posted on to Category:Incomplete outlines, where editors (who are browsing the categories) can find them and work on them - to be assigned
SriMesh: Add the above template to incomplete outlines - upcoming AWB task
The Earwig: "Tell your wikifriends about it" - I've told mine, have you told yours?
The Earwig: "Collaborate with other WikiProjects" - we've been doing this from the start (each outline is associated with at least one other WikiProject).
: move the projected outline to a subpage of WP:WPOOK - Done

Linking to outlines has begun

To the tops of about 30 subject articles, I placed a test batch of hatnotes leading to the corresponding outlines. The hatnotes look like this:

For a topical guide to this subject, see Outline of X.(Hidden: <!- PLEASE LEAVE THIS LINE IN PLACE because it leads to the page that serves as the table of contents for Wikipedia's overall coverage of this subject. Thank you.-->

The rationale for the hatnotes is that each outline is a topical guide for its subject, and since tables of contents go at the front of a book, a link to each outline should be placed at the front of its subject.

Unfortunately, not all editors agree. Some of the hatnotes have already disappeared. :(

Some past discussions pertaining to the existence or location of outlines

Note that the "Lists of topics" are of two types, including outlines and indexes, so discussions to remove, move, or merge those are usually relevant to the OOK. Also, outlines are a type of list, so discussions that affect lists in general also pertain to outlines. We've got to be on our toes!

I've excluded links to live discussions, out of respect for WP:CANVASS.

Table of contents to OOK-related stuff

Here's a directory of outline support pages:

Keep up the great work!

The Transhumanist 03:26, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this update, I will add this onto my todo list [4]. It will be done eventually. -- penubag (talk) 05:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Watchers needed

Penubag,

Please follow the watchlist editing instructions at #On the bright side, you've got to see this..., above.

Then check your watchlist every time you log on.

Thank you.

The Transhumanist 01:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Chocolate banner

Sorry for replying exclusively on my talk page but I didn't want to start a bunch of new sections. -- penubag (talk) 18:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Replied here [5]. -- penubag (talk) 07:25, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well I spent several hours learning how to make animated Gifs (or relearning what I've forgotten from class long ago) and I made a mock up ad for OOK! How's it? In the ad, I tried to explain a little what an outline was, as you suggested on my talk, many don't know. Do you have any suggestions?-- penubag (talk) 08:39, 8 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I LMAO!

I guess we are going to need an Outline of chocolate now.

Some comments/suggestions:

"Welcome to Wikipedia" is cut off along the top edge
the "a" at the end of "humongous enclopedia" is cut off
have just a little more delay before "hope you can find them all" pops up, and a little less delay afterward.
remove the underlines from the example chocolate articles titles
make the example titles appear in a more random shotgun blast sort of way
could you present more example titles to make an impact? As soon as the first five are on there, have one disappear and another one appear somewhere else, then a couple more (not quite at the same time), etc. - maybe 10 to 12 titles total. "Big Chocolate" would be a fun one to add. see more at: this Google search for Wikipedia articles with "chocolate" in their titles (pick the wildest or weirdest or most interesting ones)
change "there's an inconceivable amount of articles on chocolate!" to "there's an inconceivable number of articles on chocolate!"
In the last frame, change "Outline of" to "Outline of choco....' having it fade off a little more gradually.

The main blurb that explains outlines needs to be worked on. It presents a claim that isn't true - we'll get jumped on for it. Also, many editors are going to think, "I thought that's what categories were for".

I'll see what I can come up with.

There should be enough for you to work on in the list above for now.

And by the way, I like it!

I'll be in touch.

The Transhumanist 01:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like good ideas, I'll do that now.

The reason I used chocolate was to make it more interesting so users continue watching a long ad. But perhaps you'd like to showcase a well developed outline instead?

I purposely cut a little off on the top on the first frame because I think it looks nicer. Having the Welcome template right in the middle looks slightly wiered. I could shrinken the image if you prefer it though. The rest of your suggestions will be done soon. -- penubag (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Awesome. That must have taken forever! –Juliancolton | ^Talk 02:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Learning how to do it took longer. -- penubag (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i dislike all animated or flashing banners. For some people, they even cause access difficulties. the W3C universal accesscode permits them only under limitations, but I don't think we should even come near that. DGG (talk) 02:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with you, that's why the only place this will probably appear is on Template:Wikipedia ads -- penubag (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very cool. 10 points! (Redeemable for valuable prizes :P) How about a short one (three or four frames) for people with short attention sp- bunny! (There was an edit conflict and DGG makes an extremely good point. How to balance my love flashing lights with my desire that everyone be able to edit.) --Gimme danger (talk) 02:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, I was thinking the same thing, that the banner being too long would affect how it's viewed. I tried making it a little more intresting so others would continue watching it but that may not cut it. Do you have any specific suggestions? -- penubag (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The things that made me look up kitten pictures: the search animation, the long pause on the "Isn't there another way?"-like question, the amount of text on the we-need-your-help image. Personally, I don't think we should have the "why should one article explain it all?" because it has viewers thinking of why it is a good idea to put all the information in one place. Plus, extra seconds wasted. If you could trim a fraction of a second off of each frame too, that would help a lot. --Gimme danger (talk) 02:59, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, very well done. Just a few minor notes: The part that shows the 5 different types of chocolate articles is cut off a little at the top. Perhaps you could fix that? Also, the "click here" button doesn't work; is there any way to make it work using GIFs? Other than that though; wonderful job! NW (Talk) 02:31, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'll fix the spacing. The click here is a feature of Wikipedia software. When I enter the image into template:Wikipedia ads I'll specify the image target link like how any other image link can be made. -- penubag (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My three cents: I love using chocolate as the example, I'm not fond of animated stuff, and I think it's too long (as measured in seconds, not in pixels). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:37, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, like I said above, I was worried about this. I have yet decided what to do. -- penubag (talk) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can the "click here" be more prominent? It would be more noticeable that way. --Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 02:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I'll beef up the entire thing. The click here will be big and glossy. -- penubag (talk) 02:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The whole thing will be clickable, right? I mean, if you click anywhere on it at any time, it will take you to WP:WPOOK? The Transhumanist 02:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yup, see the comments above. This will be done when it's inserted into template:wikipedia ads. Alternatly, you could do [[File:OOK-Ad-beta.gif|link=WP:OOK]]. By the way, good job obtaining so many suggestions. You have a real way of doing that :) -- penubag (talk) 03:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 719: / Line 719: @@
 :::: I do.  We all need to ''watch''.  As in use our watchlists religiously.  Every time we log on.  That will increase awareness of what is going on, especially what discussions are taking place.  Participation in consensus-building is key.  See [[#On the bright side, you've got to see this...]], below.  '''''[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<font color="#880088">Th</font><font color="#0000FF">e Tr</font><font color="#449900">ans</font><font color="#DD9922">hu</font><font color="#DD4400">man</font><font color="#BB0000">ist</font> &nbsp;&nbsp;]]''''' 00:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
+::::: I know you're tied up in a library, but the best Firefox addon for this is [http://sitedelta.schierla.de/beta.en.php SiteDelta]. It is similar to Update Scanner but SiteDelta is far better for this purpose as it is built around the scanning pages that don't change often. It may even be worth saving your firefox preferences on an external drive and loading it on your workstation. This is really useful because it would be like having 2 separate watchlists with on-demand scan. One dedicated entirely to OOK. Try it out and let me know what you think. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 03:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 == Outline update - ''Good news and bad news'' - 06/08/2009 ==
@@ Line 881: / Line 882: @@
 ::: '''''[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<font color="#880088">Th</font><font color="#0000FF">e Tr</font><font color="#449900">ans</font><font color="#DD9922">hu</font><font color="#DD4400">man</font><font color="#BB0000">ist</font> &nbsp;&nbsp;]]''''' 01:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
-::::Sounds like good ideas, I'll do that now. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
+::::Sounds like good ideas, I'll do that now.
+::::The reason I used chocolate was to make it more interesting so users continue watching a long ad. But perhaps you'd like to showcase a well developed outline instead?
+::::I purposely cut a little off on the top on the first frame because I think it looks nicer. Having the Welcome template right in the middle looks slightly wiered. I could shrinken the image if you prefer it though. The rest of your suggestions will be done soon. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 02:40, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 :Awesome. That must have taken forever! –'''[[User:Juliancolton|<span style="font-family:Script MT;color:#36648B">Juliancolton</span>]]'''&nbsp;&#124;&nbsp;[[User_talk:Juliancolton|<sup><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:gray">''Talk''</span></sup>]] 02:07, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
@@ Line 897: / Line 900: @@
 :Can the "click here" be more prominent? It would be more noticeable that way. --[[User:Patar knight|Patar knight]] - <sup>[[User talk:Patar knight|chat]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Patar knight|contributions]]</sub> 02:41, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 ::Yeah, I'll beef up the entire thing. The click here will be big and glossy. --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 02:42, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 ::: The whole thing will be clickable, right?  I mean, if you click anywhere on it at any time, it will take you to [[WP:WPOOK]]?  '''''[[User talk:The Transhumanist|<font color="#880088">Th</font><font color="#0000FF">e Tr</font><font color="#449900">ans</font><font color="#DD9922">hu</font><font color="#DD4400">man</font><font color="#BB0000">ist</font> &nbsp;&nbsp;]]''''' 02:52, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
+::::Yup, see the comments above.  This will be done when it's inserted into template:wikipedia ads. Alternatly, you could do <nowiki>[[File:OOK-Ad-beta.gif|</nowiki>'''link=WP:OOK''']].   By the way, good job obtaining so many suggestions. You have a real way of doing that :) --[[User:penubag|'''<span style="background:#00CCFF;color:#0066FF;font-size:84%">&nbsp;penubag&nbsp;</span>''']] ([[User talk:penubag|talk]]) 03:08, 9 June 2009 (UTC)