Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not

Topic: Galleries (Nov 2005 – Jan 2006) Topic: Newspaper Articles (May - July 2007) Topic: "Unencyclopedic" (2003) Topic: Trivia (July 2007 - ongoing; partially archived)

Wikipedia tries not to be censored

I don't think it is possible for something as big as Wikipedia to be not censored. The exceeding claim "Wikipedia is not censored" is like saying "Wikipedia is not flawed" or "Wikipedia is always right" because avioding all types of censorship is not as easy as it sounds. "Wikipedia tries not to be censored" would be a much more... honest sounding statement. 66.183.59.211 (talk) 07:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It's no more inaccurate to say that "Wikipedia is not censored" than it is to say that "Wikipedia is encyclopedic" or "Wikipedia does not advertise". Which is to say, we do our best to keep it that way and fix any problems we see as quickly as we can. I strongly disagree with any rephrasing that weakens the statement. --erachima talk 07:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It is censored in the sense that Wikipedia editors form a consensus of what material is acceptable and what is not. In that sense, the global community of Wikipedians censors material. There's a nice philosophical debate (and probably a PhD grant) in there about censorship is imposed by a biased Wikipedia editorship, but I don't regard the word "censorship" as much more than WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

For example, I forget where I saw this, I thought it was on the current edition of Wikipedia Signpost but I can't find it right now, but it said that Wikipedians in some places by consensus have blocked images of the prophet Mohammad. Please excuse my fuzzy recollection, since Wikipedia goes by language not places so I am not sure of myself here and search in vain.

In any case, the key word here is by consensus. Where it was banned (by sysops), images of the prophet Mohammad are extremely offensive; they were not, however, banned on Wikipedia generally (that is, on the Wikimedia servers) and it was stated most firmly that they had no right [my word] to remove the images from the Wikimedia servers hosted in the US. Similarly, material some would regard as pornographic might be removed, but this would be by consensus. I believe anything contravening US Federal law or California (Florida?) state law generally has a hard time, and quite right too: you can argue the laws but you have to obey them, or as a fictional judge of A. P. Herbert's said, "The best way to get rid of a stupid law is not to ignore it but to enforce it.

From the articles on my watchlist, excluding vandalism (which has a pretty tight definition) most "censorship" comes from POV statements, such as perennially changing the names, or giving precedence to one version, of places that once were part of one territory and now are part of another. That just happens to be the case because of the kind of articles I sometimes edit. I guess most editors have got over sniggering over "dirty" words. Some "censorship" defies analysis, such as the perennial deletion and reinstatement, with established consensus, of the quotation of the opening lines the poem This Be The Verse, and I suppose is covered by WP:IDONTLIKEIT, although that focuses on article deletion. Si Trew (talk) 09:45, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The article you seek is Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-07-19/News and notes#Acehnese Wikipedians threaten boycott over Muhammad images. -- Quiddity (talk) 00:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Broadly related

From Template talk:Nazi-stub, the consensus seems to be that "Wikipedia is not censored" means that swastikas - and indeed any symbol, image or word that has been found offensive by anyone - cannot be removed. The notion that "it is not censorship to exercise mature editorial judgment" might, with care, be factored into this section, but I think that the problem is a lot less simple than most editors' opinions on the subject. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 23:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

My interpretation of the consensus, in that discussion, related discussions, and on the project as a whole (Mohammad cartoons, nudity, etc.) is that WP:NOT#CENSORED means that offensiveness will be treated as a non-issue, and images (as well as text and so on, but that comes up a lot less) will be judged solely on the basis of concerns such as illustrative quality and NPOV.
In conclusion, you are welcome to state that you want the image changed because you find the nazi flag's use as an icon on nazi germany articles offensive, but be aware that per policy this argument is treated the same as saying you want the image changed because you dislike the color red: we respect your opinion as to the offensiveness of the flag or ugliness of the color red, and it is not our place to judge your worldview, but it is truly irrelevant to the decision-making process. --erachima talk 00:03, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

For anyone offended, your recourse is to pass a law applicable in your own jurisdiction to deal with offensive material in all media and not only on Wikipedia. There are several categories of material which, I believe would appear in Wikipedia but for laws making it illegal to appear. See Category:Wikipedia disclaimers for an idea of how this actually occurs. patsw (talk) 21:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:NOTCENSORED is unnecessary because anyone trying to delete material on the grounds that it is objectionable could be dealt with by noting that there is no policy that says objectionable is a valid reason for exclusion while there are policies justifying the inclusion of educational material. What this policy does is reduce the need for people to explain why the offensive material they want to include is educational: they can just say "we don't censor." Fact is, if there are two edits of equal educational or encyclopedic value and one causes more offence than the other the less offensive one could and should be preferred. This policy essentially says there is no legitimate grounds for such a preference. This despite the fact social norms are considered in the most offensive cases, e.g. an explicit photo for an underage Rainbow party (sexuality) would not be included on Wikipedia even if it imparted more knowledge. There is a larger problem here that I discuss elsewhereBdell555 (talk) 11:15, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Does WP:NOTMYSPACE apply to secret pages?

Does, or should, WP:NOTMYSPACE apply to secret pages. — Becksguy (talk) 14:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Some Person/The Real Secret Page and Secret Barnstar, some editors believe that WP:NOTMYSPACE is not applicable to secret pages. I believe that it is applicable because the policy states: "Wikipedia is not a social network like MySpace or Facebook." By playing games on Wikipedia, users are treating Wikipedia like MySpace, where social-networking occurs, and Facebook, where games (albeit not of this nature) abound.

I would like to clarify the policy to state that using Wikipedia as a server for games such as secret pages is not acceptable. Cunard (talk) 05:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I think the consensus at Wikipedia_talk:User_pages#Secret_pages:_Ok_or_not.3F is pretty clear on the subject. Jclemens (talk) 05:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but editors at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Some Person/The Real Secret Page and Secret Barnstar are discounting the consensus achieved at WP:UP chiefly because WP:UP is a guideline. If the wording could be transferred to WP:NOT, then it would have more clout. Cunard (talk) 05:42, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I think this change solves it. Thank you, Jclemens. Cunard (talk) 05:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, you and I think that's logical, but we'll see how it fares as a revision. Jclemens (talk) 06:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

This change that wikilinks WP:NOT to WP:UP#GAMES in a policy page was done without consensus. I get that those that aggressively try to remove secret pages are doing what they believe is in the best interest of Wikipedia. But I believe that view is unintentionally short sighted. One argument that partially sums up my view, and others that think we should keep secret pages for otherwise productive editors, in a nutshell is: All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy. Deleting secret pages will drive away editors, especially newer and younger editors. No organization can survive without a pipeline of new blood. We should not be discouraging or WP:BITEing those that otherwise are productive, or clearly will be. The last figures I remember is that there are well over 12 million registered users, but only about 133 thousand active registered user (at least one edit in last 30 days). Can we afford to drive away editors? Check out this essay for additional arguments in support of refraining from aggressively attacking secret pages. Wikipedia:Editors matter. — Becksguy (talk) 08:35, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Clicking Special:RecentChanges shows we have plenty of editors. Is there any reason to believe that useful editors have been driven away when it is pointed out that games should not be encouraged on Wikipedia? My concern is that it would be very easy for a bunch of new editors to get entirely the wrong idea, and for that wrong idea to become a new community norm as time passes and old-timers die off. Johnuniq (talk) 09:21, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I can't see that the activity at Special:RecentChanges has any correlation with the number of active editors. Someone needs to do a proper statistical study, somewhat similar to the one reported in this article from the Wall Street Journal that shows the decline, although it's not updated for 2010. — Becksguy (talk) 11:58, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Becksguy, if you look at WT:UP, you'll see that there was an extensive discussion there. I've made that wikilink from here to there in large part on the basis of that discussion. I don't think it's an unreasonably bold move, but my feelings aren't going to be hurt if someone reverts it, although I would ask that if someone does decide to do so we start a formal policy discussion with appropriate RFC's linked to CENT to settle this once and for all. (Or at least until consensus changes...) Cheers, Jclemens (talk) 14:20, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I reluctantly removed the phrase you added linking to WP:UP#GAMES. I was unhappy that policy was changed during an ongoing deletion discussion, and then used as a claimed authority to support a position. I agree, by all means lets discuss this with an appropriate RFC. I'll even start it shortly with a neutral note. Thanks. — Becksguy (talk) 13:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Header changed to work with template. Added to WP:CENT as well. Feel free to clean up. — Becksguy (talk) 14:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Did you happen to notify the users in the AfD? They all should probably get an invite to participate here, too. Jclemens (talk) 14:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

No, but I will. Good idea. The more participants, the better. — Becksguy (talk) 15:01, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Based on (1) some friendly advice, (2) that the MfD that started this thread is effectively over and awaiting an admin to close it, (3) that consensus in this RfC is pretty clearly trending to include the phrase in WP:NOTMYSPACE originally added by Jclemens that links to WP:UP#GAMES, (4) deciding that it's time to back away from the horse on the reversion, as I already did in the MfD, I recently reversed [1] my edit [2] that removed Jclemens addition. Pending consensus in this RfC as determined by an admin. My reversal is not prejudicial to the MfD or here. So lets please continue this RfC. — Becksguy (talk) 12:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I am tired of all of these arguments about secret pages, and for the most part, I'm going to stay out of the actual discussion. However, I would like to draw everyone's attention to a discussion that happened a while ago about my secret page. The discussion can be found here. I think that some good arguments were made for both sides, and I think that reading through this may be helpful for this discussion. I mostly would like to stay out of this, but if anyone has anything they would like to discuss with me about anything from that page, or this discussion, please contact me on my talk page. ~~ Hi878 ^{(Come shout at me!)} 07:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

View by Jclemens

"Secret pages" are not encyclopedia content and do not contribute to building an encyclopedia. It is my belief that they set a poor tone, encouraging editors who enjoy such non-productive activities rather than editors who create or improve encyclopedic content. However, as SmokeyJoe observed at Wikipedia talk:UP#Secret pages: Ok or not? back in April, secret page deletion depends on the Wikipedia status (prestige, if you will) of the editor hosting the page. That offends my sense of justice slightly: either "secret pages" should be OK for all editors, or none.

To solve the problem and possibly avoid some future discussions over exactly what constitutes an inappropriate game, I propose linking the relevant part of this policy to the guideline at WP:UP#GAMES, where it is clear that such pages are neither appropriate nor endorsed.

Users who endorse this view

1. As author. Jclemens (talk) 14:34, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
2. Orangemike, who thinks this is long overdue. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:39, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
3. -- AnmaFinotera (talk ~ contribs) 15:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
4. We have many articles on games, and I think that people who want to play games online, should take there pick here (and then find the sites where they can play the game of their choice), Wikipedia is not the place for that. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
5. WP != Romper Room. —chaos5023 (talk) 15:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
6. - Endorse as per author and WP:UP. ----moreno oso (talk) 15:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
7. They should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis before deletion but in general they should not be allowed. --MASEM (t) 15:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
8. This stuff may have made some sense in the olden days when wikis were very new and novel, but with so many wikis and free wiki hosts out there there's really no excuse for posting your grocery shopping list (or whatever) on Wikipedia's servers. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
9. Endorse. It's fine to have some lighthearted conversation with other people you collaborate with on your own talk page, but we don't need the games. Karanacs (talk) 16:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
10. Endorse. Secret pages do not contribute to building the encyclopedia. Cunard (talk) 20:32, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
11. Endorse. If you want to play games, FarmVille is on Facebook. Fences&Windows 20:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
12. Endorse, But, with the proviso that there is a difference between "secret pages" (not wanted), and the games that we do endorse (as listed at WP:FUN#Wikitainment) eg WP:SDOWP and WP:SBWA. -- Quiddity (talk) 22:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
13. Endorse. Secret pages mislead new users by giving them an invalid picture of the purpose of Wikipedia. It could be hard to handle a gaming subculture if they ever became established. Johnuniq (talk) 08:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
14. Indeed. This is what facebook is for. MER-C 13:37, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
15. Endorse. People interested in playing games should do so elsewhere. Nsk92 (talk) 16:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
16. Endorse. Our servers are paid for by donations from people who believe they are supporting an encyclopedia, not a social networking site. I would not object to a page in WP space devoted to listing popular, non-WikiMedia, sites where Wikipedians congregate to socialize and play.--agr (talk) 16:36, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
17. Endorse. If we make the policy clear, it will save having the same arguments over and over at MfD. JohnCD (talk) 19:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
18. Endorse Though not sure how the Department of Fun will take this.Acather96 (talk) 07:30, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
19. Yes. Stifle (talk) 10:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
20. Endorse. I'm a newish user and I'm young, but I didn't join Wikipedia for this. (Shockingly I actually joined to contribute to articles.) I have Facebook for socialising on the Internet. I don't think this will discourage many, if any, constructive editors. Jenks24 (talk) 14:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

Question: how is it possible to have a "secret page" on Wikipedia? They all show up in the index; are we talking about pages with white font applied or something? --Kotniski (talk) 14:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• Secret pages are generally simply not wikilinked from anywhere. Yes, one of the reasons I just don't "get" secret pages is that Special:PrefixIndex is a pretty effective tool for finding anything. Jclemens (talk) 14:51, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
  • So the proposal concerns orphaned pages in user space? Or is there some other definition of a "secret page"?--Kotniski (talk) 15:02, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
    • No, it is not just the property of being an orphaned userspace page, as I myself easily use this "feature" to work on article drafts before mainspacing, testing templates, and the like. That's all towards improvement of the work. It is when the page - secret or not - is for entertainment value only and serves nothing to improvement of WP, as the case of the above secret pages. --MASEM (t) 15:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
      • So why is everyone talking about "secret pages", when the "secrecy" has nothing to do with the reason why it's considered bad? Shouldn't we be talking about "user pages unrelated to Wikipedia" or something like that?--Kotniski (talk) 15:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
        • See WP:Secret pages for some more background. Jclemens (talk) 15:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
• Yes, it's a misnomer, and people thinking that anything done here isn't done in full view of the population of the planet is part of the underlying difficulty. (Remembering that is something that guides behaviour, use of the wiki, personal interaction with other editors, care and attention with regard to living persons, and several other things.) The pages being discussed and objected to by some are the "Congratulations! You know how to use MediaWiki, and have discovered this orphaned user-space congratulations note page. Please sign here and I'll pin a badge on you." sort.

  Part of the difficulty of approaching this issue that makes it so intractable is that for some people such activity is their primary focus and primary motivation for being here, whereas for others such activities are a means for blowing off steam after spending a month bringing an article to FA status, that they spend only the occasional edit upon here and there. There's a conflict between the notion that writers are the people that we actually want, and people who are here to use the wiki as a free scribbling board for their own personal use are those that should be encouraged to go elsewhere; and notions of egalitarianism and "equal justice", derived from the doctrine of perpetual openness to all comers. Two of the principles that are fundamental to these Wikimedia Foundation projects come into opposition, here. Uncle G (talk) 15:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

  • So what exactly is the problem here? Is this sort of monkeying around actually causing any measurable increase in server load? How does it compare with other feelgoody type features, like custom sigs or userboxes?--Kotniski (talk) 15:40, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
    • Uncle G, I would really like to hear from actual users who've gotten anything to FA who actually enjoy secret pages as an entertainment or distraction. Really, I would. Not only it would undermine my position, it would shock me as a person. I've never observed any evidence of such, and I frankly think it doesn't exist. If it did, however, it would be a very strong argument against doing anything against these pages that I perceive to be a waste of time and not aligned with our purposes. Jclemens (talk) 15:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
      • Perhaps it is a bit pretentious of me, but I shall use myself as the example you seek. I discovered them a few years ago, spent a few hours one night playing the game, and haven't done it since. I may not have notches in my FA belt quite like many others (since I tend towards more gnomish edits in mainspace, as well as a lot of behind-the-scenes work), but I'd be offended if one were to accuse me of being an unproductive editor, as I take pride in my contributions. I do think the game is silly now, but would be angry as heck if my page got deleted. I think an established editor can be trusted to use good judgement regarding his or her own userspace and time managment. bahamut0013^words_deeds 15:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
      • But I still don't understand why it isn't just a waste of time to be worrying about these pages at all. Are they harming anyone? --Kotniski (talk) 16:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
        • That's a philosophical discussion where I can give you several answers, including:
          • They might indeed be driving away serious contributors who see them as frivolous and/or undermining Wikipedia's credibility. At the very least, they do look silly.
          • They're no more harmful and a lot less useful than plenty of the non-notable pages that are deleted every day.
          • They're no more a waste of time to discuss than most of the other things that show up on WP:CENT. :-) Jclemens (talk) 16:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
      • I'm probably not the right person to ask for examples, because even though I've written a couple of articles my methods of relaxation afterwards don't involve wikis at all. ☺ But I acknowledge the argument put forward that for other people this may well be the case, even though it's not part of my personal code of behaviour. Uncle G (talk) 16:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
    • The problem is the fairly obvious one, that the world outside of Wikipedia has experienced for as long as human civilisation has existed. The number of people who want to work on any given shared endeavour is always less than the number of people who want to spectate or scribble. Anyone who has ever had to suffer from property misuse will tell you that there's a camel's nose issue. One must push back as soon as that nose comes through the tent flap. The shared purpose must be expressed in action, not only to acculture new participants in the project but to reject those that come to the project with other, selfish, purposes in mind, lest they overwhelm. The disputes over this are the same ones that have the world at odds when it comes to the artistic merits of graffiti. Wikipedia is part of the world at large, and the problems of the world at large such as this exist here.

      Another facet of the problem is that these are projects where the notion of freedom embodied in the fundamental principle of free content. The reason why people want to codify a prohibition against acting counter to community norms, is that they want something to point to in order to say, to those who argue "But I'm free to do what I want! There's no rule against it. Freedom is what you're about, isn't it?", that there is a codified community norm. But, again, there's another tension between principles here. The basic idea underpinning Wikipedia:Ignore all rules is that our purpose here is not to make rules for making an encyclopaedia, but to make that encyclopaedia itself. (It's all to easy to fall into the trap of spending all one's time in deciding what colour the wheel should be before one goes about actually inventing it.) But, in opposition to that, the idea that we're here to make an encyclopaedia not just scribble and play around, and that people who don't share our purpose are encouraged to go elsewhere and use their own property for such activities (rather than the property of a charitable foundation), is the very one that people are attempting to codify. Uncle G (talk) 16:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, so that being the case, can we work on codifying these things properly, instead of just making a kneejerk reaction to each individual "abuse" as we come across it? What is the actual principle at stake here? If we just legislate that "secret pages are bad" then those people will find some other game to play (or even carry on playing the same game, with the would-be deleters as their new opponents), and our instructions will have made one more forward move in their relentless CREEP. --Kotniski (talk) 18:06, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

(It's off topic, but the same applies to the recent barely-thought-out edicts from above concerning "pedophilia". We now have very specific policies about what to do about people who advocate sex with minors, but we are still completely in the dark about what to do about people - far more commonly encountered in practice - who advocate many other equally unpleasant actions and positions.)--Kotniski (talk) 18:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree that consistency is desirable and appropriate, but per WP:BURO, we don't make rules for the sake of rules--we describe existing best practice. The only reason this is here now is that in a recent secret page AfD, the lack of any mention of such here in WP:NOT, despite the mention at WP:UP, was cited as a reason for keeping that content. The link I added was calculated to be a small change, very much in line with existing discussions on the matter, which can serve to guide discussions at AfDs, not root out secret-page apologists and ban them from polite society! :-) Jclemens (talk) 18:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad, because some of the anti-secret pagers in the past have acted almost as if they are blasphemy and took to MfDing them with all the zeal of an inquisition, which seems distinctly pointy and bitey to me. I've no real opinion in the issue myself, but I greatly dislike bullies (I again emphasize that I am glad you are not one) and attempts to legislate behavior. bahamut0013^words_deeds 15:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

NOTE: During this RfC, the preceding discussion on WT:UP was archived to Wikipedia_talk:User_pages/Archive_7#Secret_pages:_Ok_or_not.3F. Jclemens (talk) 16:21, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

View by Becksguy

I totally agree with Jclemens that "Secret pages" are not encyclopedia content... I can also see how there are editors that believe secret pages ... do not contribute to building an encyclopedia. On the surface, secret pages don't directly contribute. However, I believe that is an unintentionally short sighted view. Yes, secret pages cost a bit in storage and bandwidth, but if a hypothetical user produces even 1000 constructive edits and one secret page, that would be a great return on investment, and a net positive for Wikipedia. I don't really care about any particular secret page, but I do care very very much that we retain editors that produce content that helps Wikipedia to increase article quality and to grow. As an example: For a car assembler in Detroit, the only direct productive labor would be with a wrench in hand, putting parts on cars. Anything else, such as cleaning up, having coffee breaks, or attending quality improvement or plant safety seminars is non-productive. Yet they are necessary to support and improve production. In Wikipedia, the only activity that directly produces our product is article writing. How many words per hour does one produce in mainspace, as it were. No one is claiming secret pages are productive. What they are, however, is a way for editors that otherwise do produce content, or copy edit content, to have a bit of fun, to socialize, and remain interested, and thus stay here and produce the content that is our reason for existing. This is a volunteer effort without pay, not a third world sweat shop that exploits people. Humans are social animals and we need to have some small amount of fun and socialization with our productive work in order to stay interested and productive. I'm very concerned that WP:BITEing new and younger users (the ones that seem to like these kinds of games) will lead to loosing them. Please read Wikipedia:Editors matter and User:Bahamut0013/Secret pages. Because if we blanket forbid secret pages, it will be kinda like banks that hold underwater mortgages insisting on foreclosing and winding up with houses they can't sell, versus negotiating with the owners for a new easier payment schedule. Sometimes an overly strict interpretation is not in everyone's best interests. And I believe that's the case here, and that Wikipedia will suffer from loss of editors. If a specific user creates secret pages and does not materially contribute, then take the secret page to MfD, on a case by case basis. WP:UP#GAMES does not forbid secret page, rather by using the header "Excessive unrelated content" which excludes less than excessive content, it is therefore permissive. It also says: Particularly, community-building activities that are not strictly "on topic" may be allowed, especially when initiated by committed Wikipedians with good edit histories. At their best, such activities help us to build the community, and this helps to build the encyclopedia. My point also.

Users who endorse this view

1. As author. Becksguy (talk) 16:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
2. If editors who spend most of their time productively building wikipedia, then we should let them have pages like this - it's not difficult to tell who is primarily concentrating on encyclopedia editing. I don't see the difference between these pages and signature/autograph books and and if editors such as this one want to have such pages then I don't see any reason not to let them. (If there is a difference then a rename is all that's required!) Pages such as this one don't directly contribute to the encyclopedia but has been very easily kept at MFD 3 times and help keep wikipedia from being too unfriendly a place. I agree with the comment made by Jimbo when someone said signature books don't contribute to the encyclopedia - "Sure it does, if it contributes to a collegial atmosphere of friendliness. Snapping at people who are just being friendly doesn't improve the encyclopedia at all, as far as I can tell". Davewild (talk) 18:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
3. Endorse. Social activities builds relationships - relationships help build the encyclopedia. I can't tell you how many things I've done for the project because a close Wikipedian friend asked me to. People in business will tell you how critical casual social events are for networking. Dcoetzee 18:58, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
4. Endorse. A secret page is just a secret guestbook and it is not all at like Myspace, Facebook, or a game. Think about what Facebook and Myspace entail - posting about personal things, pictures, games, quizzes, etc. A guestbook/secret page is nothing like this at all. It only takes a few seconds to find one and all you would do is make one edit with your username. It is merely a way of meeting new people or introducing yourself to another editor and maybe you later collaborate on a project. Secret guestbook pages don't harm anyone but banning them could only potentially be a net-negative for the encyclopedia if it causes any productive users to leave. I don't have any statistics on this but I would estimate that a productive editor involved in secret pages would only have on average 25-30 additional edits than the rest of us and have only "wasted" about 15 minutes time total lifetime. I think we would all rather have them be here on Wikipedia than wasting time on some other site and not using Wikipedia as much. EdEColbert^{Let me know} 04:47, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
5. I particularly like Dcoetzee's summary Nick-D (talk) 06:10, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
6. I like what EdEColbert said, especially the beginning; that these aren't like MySpace at all. I agree with Becksguy's view. Not really much more to say. ~~ Hi878 ^{(Come shout at me!)} 06:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
7. Echoing that DCoetzee's is a good summary of the basic point. Rd232 ^talk 18:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

A car assembly line worker is a poor analogy. Here's a better one, that counters with the notion that this is also about respect, about respect for the purpose of the facilities provided. I give you, once again, the Charity Shop Analogy:

You are a volunteer worker in a charity shop. Everything that you do in the shop is visible to the public through the shop window. Whilst you are putting price tags on second-hand clothing you may well indulge in a little playing with your volunteer colleagues. But you know that if you aren't here to do the work, you don't have any right to the play. Moreover, at the end of a hard day's work you know that the world outside has pubs, clubs, bowling alleys, cinemas, and all sorts of other places for amusement and relaxation. You also know that the facilities aren't yours, are provided for a specific purpose, and that should be seen, by that public looking in through the shop window, not to be abused by volunteers, in order to encourage and retain other volunteers. So you don't set up your personal fairground amusement stall in the middle of the shop. You respect the endeavour that you are here for, and the organization supporting that endeavour, and you go elsewhere in the world for other personal endeavours.

This ethos is what people are trying to codify. It is what they are trying to convey. The problem is that, as with legislation in general, it's difficult to write rules to express this sort of thing without coming up with rules that express something else. It's worth looking at codes of conduct for other charitable enterprises, here. It's certainly worth noting that charitable enterprises have formal codes of conduct.

Here's just one example of such a code of conduct, from the many that some searching will turn up, that might be close to home. It's an excerpt from the model policy and code of conduct manual for volunteers in the Court Appointed Special Advocates programme in New York:

CASA Volunteers may use the telephones in the CASA offices for CASA purposes. We ask that only essential personal calls be placed through CASA office telephones. We request that volunteers do not make personal toll calls while at the CASA offices.

Uncle G (talk) 17:29, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

My view is not as well written or organized as I would have liked. I spent too much time on the mechanics of RfC creation (and CERT), that I rushed to get something in. To use your Charity Shop Analogy, suppose the hypothetical volunteers get tired of all work and no fun (from their point of view), and want a 10 minute frisbee session every afternoon. And when the boss says no, she looses some of her experienced volunteers and has to spend resources to search for qualified replacement volunteers, plus lost productivity for training, etc, in this hypothetical situation. There is always going to be tension between applying every minute to only productive activities and allowing some small amount of reasonable and managed activities that keep interest up, help morale, and promote overall productivity. Even if it has nothing to do with the organizational mission. The telephone policy where I worked was essentially the same as your example. And I though it was a very reasonable accommodation between the conflicting needs. — Becksguy (talk) 19:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the way you have cited User:Bahamut0013/Secret pages as if it supports your opinion. I've taken great pains to make it as neutral as possible, and it cites numerous arguments both in support and opposition of your position. After Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Bahamut0013/Secret pages, I'm a bit leery about the reputation of this essay being unbalanced. I would feel better if you amended it to cite specifically the For section. bahamut0013^words_deeds 15:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

I meant the two pages to be sources of additional information on the subject, not necessarily to only support my position. I am *not* in favor of secret pages per se. Rather, I'm in favor of allowing otherwise productive editors the leeway of having a secret page, especially if it helps keep newer and younger editors interested and productively participating. If I change the sentence to read something like: "For more information and views, please read....", would that meet your concern? And thank you for writing a good page on the subject. — Becksguy (talk) 17:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

View by Fetchcomms

To be brief,

• Secret pages are like scavenger hunt games. Games belong on Facebook, not Wikipedia.
• Secret pages contribute to the whole community friendliness concept but they attract predominantly newer users in my experience, giving them the wrong view of Wikipedia and the appropriateness of these pages. Unlike guestbooks, they take up way too much time, result in way too many useless pages being created, and have more flaws than benefits. Rather than giving the hard workers of the encyclopedia a way to relax and whatnot, they only create a greater "cabal" of newer, younger, MySpacier users who waste time looking for these things. I used to like secret pages until about when I had about 2,000 edits and realized that, if I wanted to be a serious contributor, I couldn't bother spending time on these silly games. I don't bother with them now.
• That said, I think that they should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, though most should be deleted. Why? Because some of them are more harmless than others. If you have just one subpage instead of ten and you hide a clue somewhere and you don't bother with silly barnstars for them and whatnot, it takes far less time and people might actually find it less of a distraction. —fetch·comms 01:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Users who endorse this view

1. As author. —fetch·comms 01:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
2. I think the argument by Becksguy is compelling, but it doesn't reflect reality. In reality, a significant amount, if not the majority, of "secret pages" are not made by users who make 1000 productive edits, then 1 secret page. They're made by users who make a handful of productive edits then just edit userspace almost exclusively. Mr.Z-man 13:58, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
3. Stifle (talk) 10:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

You mention that hidden pages should be evaluated on a case by case basis, although most should be deleted. What kind of hidden pages should/can be kept? Netalarm^talk 23:06, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Ones by established users that don't actually waste lots of time, as I mentioned above--just one subpage, etc., and not something that a lot of new users will get distracted in. Something that will let me take a break, but only for two minutes, not twenty. —fetch·comms 01:53, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

View by Rd232

Jclemens stated above "Secret pages" are not encyclopedia content and do not contribute to building an encyclopedia. The first is indisputable, the second is a question of fact. Whilst Wikipedia is not Myspace or Facebook (sociality for its own sake), it cannot be overlooked that Wikipedia's success in creating and maintaining a community-built encyclopedia depends on the health of its community. That health may well involve a degree of socialising, and given a proportionally extremely low cost (in terms of burden placed on servers), such socialising should be tolerated as long as it broadly contributes to the health and vitality of the Wikipedia community, which is to say, it encourages people to continue to participate in it. Unless we imagine hordes of Secret Page junkies coming to Wikipedia solely for that (not impossible, but unlikely, and a matter of demonstrable fact if true), then Secret Pages ought to be part of the class of things that are a waste of time in themselves, but do contribute to the vitality of the community, and thereby indirectly to the encyclopedia. In which case, rather than stomping on these things, we should try to find ways to link them back to the core task - for instance, a WikiCup-style Secret Page competition which mixes Secret Page activity with editing/maintenance targets.

In fact, as the nature of Wikipedia work develops increasingly towards maintenance (which is less attractive to most than creating content, especially new articles), the challenge of maintaining the health and vitality of the community (people coming back regularly to contribute) becomes greater. This means, if anything, that we need to find more ways to encourage people to interact with the website in ways that aren't directly contributing to the encyclopedia - but which help keep them engaged, visiting the website, and occasionally checking their watchlist etc. Do we want to become Myspace? Of course not. The fact that if this shortcut were being created today it would be WP:NOTFACEBOOK as the primary shortcut tells its own story: even big social websites can die a slow death. That includes Wikipedia! If we want to imagine Wikipedia in 2015 or 2020 or beyond, how are we going to keep enough people around and interested in maintaining and updating an encyclopedia? I'd say if anything, it means finding ways to be more social. Preferably this will be in ways related to the encyclopedia mission, but that might be too limiting if approached strictly; if so, those "other" ways or somehow "mixed" ways should be permitted and even encouraged, as long they do not themselves begin to distract too much from the core task.

As to policy, WP:NOTMYSPACE, in both actual content and original intent, is to prevent Wikipedia being abused for purposes entirely unrelated to it. Secret Page games by active contributors do not fall into that category. Rd232 ^talk 14:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• Some very good ideas in there. Particularly the "link them back to the core task" suggestion (see WP:FUN#Wikitainment for other possible ways we could re-route these), and the "by active contributors" separation. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:31, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

View by Kayau

God, and Jiong I'm totally tired of these long and endless discussions now. What about that, we just leave things as they are, stop having these pointless discussions, and leave them to MfD, and judge secret pages on case-by-case basis etc. Please. Just stop this unwanted drama. Kayau Voting IS evil 01:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

But if we take it on a case by case basis we end up having the same WP:TL;DR discussion over and over again each time, like this one. The point of having it here is to have it once and settle the point. JohnCD (talk) 10:00, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Have you seen my comment at WT:MFD? Kayau Voting IS evil 10:22, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think there will be any consensus of this discussion at all. There is no point in it. Wikipedians are mostly diverted, on this issue. There have already been tons of discussions at WT:UP, which are worthless. I don't see why it will not become worthless when held at WT:NOT. I have decided that these discussions have zero value, and should be discouraged. Kayau Voting IS evil 10:25, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

19 supports for one view, no more than 5 for any other view, and you think we won't reach any consensus? Hmm. Jclemens (talk) 15:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

This comment's factual accuracy may be compromised because of out-of-date information. Please help improve the comment by updating it. There is no additional information on the talk page, since this is already one. Now... time to stop wasting time. ;) Kayau Voting IS evil 12:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

View by Heimstern

Myspacing activities on Wikipedia are a waste of time, but so is enforcing WP:MYSPACE under most circumstances. If it's not harming article content or causing some sort of disruption to the community (and given how fast RC here flows, it's not like myspacing tends to flood it a lot), it's really not that important. We should find some policies actually worth enforcing. Like these right here! Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Straw poll: Should secret pages from productive editors be tolerated?

Yes, secret pages from productive editors should be tolerated

1. Becksguy (talk) 09:42, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
2. Herostratus (talk) 02:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC) Leave 'em alone unless someone can show actual proximate and significant harm. WP:PRIG is not offical policy (yet). Herostratus (talk) 02:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
3. These pages are obviously not doing any harm when a productive editor made one; I most certainly believe that my having one hasn't lessened the constructive editing that I perform. ~~ Hi878 ^{(Come shout at me!)} 06:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
4. Bothering to enforce almost any form of our myspacing policy on productive contributors is just plain stupid. We're here for an encyclopedia. If people are helping to produce that, there's seldom a need to give a flying eff what they do in the userspace (advocating pedophilia would be an exception, sure, but secret pages, not so much). Heimstern Läufer (talk) 07:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

No, secret pages from productive editors should not be tolerated

1. I believe that secret pages from productive editors should not be tolerated because they are not tolerated for less serious editors. Neither WP:UP#GAMES nor WP:NOTMYSPACE condones Wikipedians with serious edits who use Wikipedia as a web host or as a game. Why should established editors who violate policy be treated differently from less serious editors who violate policy? Shouldn't established editors who have many constructive edits serve as examples to those who have less constructive edits? I believe that all editors are equal and should be treated equally when they violate policy.

   I will provide an example to illustrate why it is harmful to hold double standards. Let's say that Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Some Person/The Real Secret Page and Secret Barnstar is closed as "keep" because Some Person (talk · contribs) is considered an "productive editor", whereas Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Fiddlekid's secret pages is closed as "delete" because Fiddlekid (talk · contribs) is an "unproductive editor".

   Fiddlekid returns to Wikipedia after a lengthy hiatus. He notices the "new messages" banner, clicks on it, and is surprised to discovers that his secret pages have been deleted. Fiddlekid clicks on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Fiddlekid's secret pages and discovers links to WP:NOTMYSPACE and WP:UP#GAMES which explain why the page has been deleted.

   Then, Fiddleclick starts contributing to articles more and less to games and Myspacing. One day, he finds a secret page from a "productive editor" that has not been deleted. Believing that all editors are treated equally when they violate policy, Fiddleclick nominates the secret page for deletion whereupon users flood the MfD page saying "Keep. This editor is productive and is here to build the encyclopedia so the page should be kept."

   How would Fiddleclick react to that? Perhaps he would think: people support keeping this user's page because he is better and more popular than I. Why else would people delete my page and not his?" Would Fiddleclick wish to contribute to this project anymore? I think not.

   Is this the message we want to be giving new users? That tenure, content contributions, and a high number of edits to the mainspace "buys" them the right to host secret pages on Wikipedia's servers? I hope not, which is why I am strongly against deleting secret pages for some editors and then keeping them for a "clique" of "productive editors". I concur with Becksguy (talk · contribs) that editors matter. As such all editors should be treated fairly and equally—all secret pages should be accorded the same treatment. Cunard (talk) 05:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

2. No; a secret page that is being used for non-productive purposes on WP should not be tolerated (after careful review) regardless if an experienced editor or a greenhorn has created it. An experienced editor may create what initially appears to be a similar secret gaming page, thus why I suggest careful review to make sure that there is not a valid use for it (such as part of a WP tutorial on searching, for example). --MASEM (t) 05:32, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
3. No, there would be endless TL;DR discussions about whether a particular editor was productive enough to have a secret page. JohnCD (talk) 10:03, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
4. No, that's favoritism. If there's to be a reason that "secret pages" should be kept, it should be as part of a learning environment--e.g., a "here's how to find any page in the 'pedia" exercise for new users wanting to increase their Wiki-Fu. I don't see a need for more than a few pages in order to meet that goal. Jclemens (talk) 15:47, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
5. No, they serve no purpose and do nothing at all to contribute to building the encyclopedia. A8x (talk) 11:12, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
6. Why are we !voting and having a regular RfC at the same time? No, secret pages shouldn't be allowed. WP is not a web host, and it's not myspace. Karanacs (talk) 19:26, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
7. I think Cunard has given a very clear and cogent explanation as to why this is not a good idea. I can see the attraction of this idea, but if we allow some people to do this, then it will be very difficult to justify not allowing someone else to do it. "Such and such a user has 37 secret pages and nobody objects, but I had 2 and you deleted them". Also it introduces the whole "where do we draw the borderline?" issue, and endless arguments in MfD discussions as to whether a particular editor should be given allowances or not. The idea that established constructive editors should be allowed leeway is not a wholly unreasonable one, but I think it is a mistake. The fact that established and respected pillars of the community are allowed to do something makes it look very unjust to someone with less standing in the community that they are not allowed to do the same. This is exactly the sort of thing which is likely to encourage some people to see Wikipedia as run by a self-appointed cabal of editors who run things just for their own pleasure. I am not, of course, suggesting that that is the intention of those who advocate leeway for established editors, but that is how it would look. The whole issue of allowing exceptions to the "not myspace" policy brings up this "where do you draw the borderline" issue. It is interesting that at present not a single one of the comments in the "yes" list above actually gives a reason for allowing these pages, but merely argues that there is no reason for disallowing them. Well, there are several reasons for disallowing them. JamesBWatson (talk) 09:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
8. If anything, I'd say such misbehaviour from "established users" is even worse because they no longer have the excuse that it was a silly newbie mistake. Besides, having established users tell the newbies "don't create secret pages" while they themselves get away with exactly that is downright hypocrisy. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:07, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
9. It's all been said. If one group shouldn't have them, no group should have them. Dougweller (talk) 15:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Abstain

1. I boycott the poll per my comment above (and my sig too). Kayau Voting IS evil 05:31, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
2. We're bureaucratic enough. This pointless debate has gone way too far, and won't matter at all in the long run. I'm going to go find something more productive to do, you all should too. Saeb(talkjorn) 00:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
3. Other than the fact that the poll is actually skewed (read the wording), I should note that polls do not constitute a WP:Consensus.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 10:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

RFC: victim list on an aircrash article

See here. MickMacNee (talk) 01:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:MEMORIAL when part of a notable accident article

Some people seem to interpret WP:MEMORIAL to mean that any mention of a dead person, even as part of a notable accident article, violates this policy. There is currently an RfC for a featured aviation accident article, where the list of victims and their ages is included in hidden format, requiring the reader to click on 'show' to view. Assuming there are reliable sources for the names, does this violate WP:MEMORIAL? Crum375 (talk) 11:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Guessing this is the same RfC noted in the previous section? :-) -- AnmaFinotera (talk ~ contribs) 13:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but this question addresses the generic issue, not any single case, and therefore the current wording of WP:MEMORIAL. Crum375 (talk) 13:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not simple because NOT#MEMORIAL is not being called out in isolation of other arguments on that RFC, so determining what to change here is impossible. There's no discussion that should happen here that shouldn't be first happening at that RFC first. --MASEM (t) 13:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Any discussion should be broken down to its individual elements. In this case, the generic question is whether the name and age of a victim of a crime, or an accident, may be mentioned in an article about that crime or accident, even if the victim is not notable enough to warrant a dedicated article. If there is a prohibition of mentioning victim names, then that has to be spelled out in a policy. At the moment, WP:MEMORIAL seems to apply only to dedicated articles about deceased people, not an outright prohibition of mentioning their name in an otherwise notable article. Crum375 (talk) 14:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Breaking down the discussion is very premature and effectively forum shopping. If that RFC should close and clearly consensus says MEMORIAL doesn't apply, then the question of how to word MEMORIAL better to fit that result comes into play. It is good to get consensus of people her about MEMORIAL on the RFC and using a single location to do that, but creating a second discussion here while that first RFC is going is not appropriate. --MASEM (t) 14:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it's just the opposite — the RfC is premature without clarifying the underlying policy. If we have a policy which says that a crime victim of a notable crime may not be named in an article about that crime unless that victim is notable enough to justify his own dedicated wiki-article, that would be an important input to the RfC discussion. If it's the reverse, then that's clearly important too. Similarly for a notable accident: are we allowed to mention the reliably-sourced victim names even if they aren't individually notable enough to merit their own article? As the WP:MEMORIAL policy stands, it seems to apply only to dedicated articles about deceased persons, not about mentioning their names and age as victims in otherwise notable articles. If this is incorrect, it needs to be fixed. Crum375 (talk) 15:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Policy and guidelines are driven by actual practice and consensus, not created in a void and certainly shouldn't be created/modified to achieve desired results in a specific RFC. The RFC opened provides a specific case in practice where several policies and guidelines converge, thus after consensus is set there does it make sense to address the problematic policies and guidelines. Now, it is completely fair if you think MEMORIAL is being used wrong in that RFC to create a new subheading there to discuss it further within the context of that RFC, and even advertise it here some more to draw attention. But trying to achieve change here to get the result you want there is not how we use P&G pages. --MASEM (t) 15:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not at all sure I want to achieve any change here. My primary objective on this page is to understand the current WP:MEMORIAL policy. As you can see in the RfC, there are other issues there, such as style, but here I'd like to focus specifically on whether WP:MEMORIAL means more than it currently says. Crum375 (talk) 16:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I think that WP:MEMORIAL is silent on mentioning the death, including up to memorialising, in the context of existing suitable coverage of a person or event. WP:MEMORIAL was not written for this purpose. To quote a "policy violation" here is not good. I think this means that we should fall back to the question: Do others (reliable sources) provide this coverage. "It this 'memorial' attributable to a reliable, published source." is a good question. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:49, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

I also think that this is forum-shopping, and WP:GAMEing the system by trying to change the policies to 'win' an active dispute. The RFC linked in the previous section is currently running about 6:1 against Crum's passionately defended position, and Crum has been arguing with nearly every editor who has posted a comment. IMO this discussion should be postponed at least until the RFC closes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:57, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

If a policy is mentioned by some editors on an RfC as a rationale for content removal, and it seems to be at odds with the policy as it's currently worded, why is it wrong to ask people on the policy's talk page to explain it? In addition, my question here is more than just relating to the RfC, or even aviation accidents, but also for crime victims, and in fact any time an otherwise non-notable deceased person's name is mentioned by a reliable source in reference to a highly notable event. It seems to me that this basic question is much broader than the specific RfC. Crum375 (talk) 00:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

It's not wrong and in fact good to ask the editors involved on the specific p/g page to offer their opinion (that's why you put the pointer to the RFC here, it seems), but it is wrong to try to get p/g changes in concurrency to a different discussion that is being run; that's gaming system, trying to change the "rules" as they are discussed. Additionally, I think you have a stronger case discussing this in the context of the example RFC and concurrent discussion than here in isolation. --MASEM (t) 00:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

As I noted above, I am not interested in changing the policy or the rules, and I didn't post here for that. I did want other people's opinion about the generic issue, because some of the arguments on the RfC were that per WP:MEMORIAL, only individually notable deceased persons may be mentioned in an article, even if the article is not specifically about them. As far as the specific RfC, I think there are other issues there, such as style and format, outside the scope of this page, and my goal here was only to clarify the generic issues I mentioned. Crum375 (talk) 01:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The current wording of MEMORIAL is "Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others". The key part is 'others'. I consider the names of random victims of disasters to be 'others', and therefore I read MEMORIAL as barring simple lists of victims from Wikipedia who otherwise have no association with the article or any outside notability, because such an act in of itself appears to me to be an act of memorialisation. If I can read it that way, others can too, and the Rfc seems to bear this out. This was also picked up on in Wikipedia:Victim Lists. MickMacNee (talk) 21:52, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

The term "memorialize" generally means to describe some aspect of their lives, like a brief biography. A pure name and age mention is not "memorializing". Also, the WP:MEMORIAL explains the concept by saying (emphasis added) "subjects of encyclopedia articles must satisfy Wikipedia's notability requirements." This indicates that the WP:MEMORIAL policy section specifically relates to articles dedicated to the deceased, not to a mere mention of the deceased in another article. In other words, as it stands, there is no policy that tells us that we may not mention the published name and age of a non-notable crime or accident victim in articles about the crime or accident, not dedicated to those victims. This point goes beyond victim names, and relates to any published detail about a larger topic: the detail need not in itself be "notable" in the wikipedia WP:N sense to merit inclusion in an article not dedicated to that detail. Crum375 (talk) 22:35, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

That's your reading of it, and I simply disagree, based on my reading of it. Unless or until it specifically states 'this does/does not apply to simple victim lists in articles', then we can agree to disagree and let consensus decide. But as people have pointed out at length in here and the rfc, objecting to these lists based on MEMORIAL is in practice what already happens all over the pedia. And policy supposedly reflects practice, not the other way around. MickMacNee (talk) 14:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

What you are saying is that, for example, if there is an article for a notable crime (e.g. serial murder), we may not mention the victim names and ages in the article, regardless of the fact that they were published by reliable secondary sources, if those victims don't merit their own wiki-pages. By that logic, you'd also prohibit any mention of any ancillary detail in any article, unless that detail warrants its own page. Clearly this view is absurd, and clearly we are allowed to add related details to articles which are mentioned by secondary sources. The WP:MEMORIAL is clearly intended to prohibit creating articles as a memorial to deceased people who are not notable enough independent of their death. Expanding this to include the prohibition of mentioning any name of any non-notable victim in an article about a notable crime (or accident, as the case may be), is not supported by any policy, explicit or implied. Crum375 (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps somebody can explain why we are mixing up victims of crime and those that just happen to die on a crashed aircraft, dont see the comparison myself. MilborneOne (talk) 18:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

No, that's not what I said at all. I've yet to see coverage of a serial killer yet that only mentioned the name and age of victims, and did not cover them in such detail that it would be simply absurd to claim that adding it to the article would not be relevant or justifiable, or an act of memorialisation. The same can absolutley not be said about your plane crash victim list, whose only coverage is as a simple list with no other relevance or use except to retain as a memorial. The two scenarios are totally different, you couldn't have chosen a worse comparison frankly. MickMacNee (talk) 19:13, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

If we have a reliable secondary source mentioning a fact related to the article topic, we may include it in the article. Notability only comes into play for articles dedicated to the specific fact. So WP:MEMORIAL tells us not to create articles for deceased persons unless they are notable independent of their death, but it doesn't tell us not to mention their name in relation to an article topic which is otherwise notable. This applies to any cause of death: accident, crime or natural. If WP:MEMORIAL is intended to prohibit mentioning deceased people's names in general, unless they are very notable in their own right, it should say so, but that would be absurd, and fly in the face of many of our articles. Imagine an article about a famous painter, with some reliable secondary source telling us that the painter was influenced by some person he met when he was young, who is now deceased. Are we not allowed to mention that name, unless that person is notable enough to merit his own article? Clearly we may mention anything that a reliable source mentions in relation to the article topic, and notability (in the wiki WP:N sense) only comes into play as justification for creating an article for someone or something, not for adding facts about otherwise notable subjects. Crum375 (talk) 19:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

See, this is the thing that goes to MilborneOne's question. In the person inspiring the artist case, if it is well sourced that that person was the inspiration, but that person was otherwise non-notable, it is nearly impossible to talk about the artist without mentioning that person, and thus is the type of case where we do include them. If we have a crime, generally the victims are non-notable unless in the course of summarizing the crime's events and aftereffects it specifically helps to identify the victims instead of by a simple "first victim" language. (eg. "At the scene of Smith's dead, they found the murderer's fingerprints and DNA." or "T). When we're talking about people involved with a disaster, knowing their names does not help with understanding the events and impact of the disaster, and thus we avoid that information because otherwise it's just a list of a people that died to include a list of people that died and no other reason - typically the basic start of a memorialized list, and the same reason the papers are printing them. --MASEM (t) 20:06, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, take the article about the artist, and change the person who inspired him to a person he accidentally shot to death in a hunting accident in his youth. Assume the victim's name and age are mentioned by the reliable secondary source, are we allowed to mention them? Crum375 (talk) 20:09, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Did the person he shot affect his life in a notable way? Then likely yes, inclusion makes sense. Still not being a memorial to that person by adding that factor. --MASEM (t) 20:19, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Sure, killing anyone, accidentally or not, will have a profound effect on a person's life. And I agree that including a victim's name and age is not a "memorial". That's exactly my point in this thread: we have no prohibition on the mere mentioning of the name and age of a non-notable victim related to an article not dedicated to that person. Crum375 (talk) 20:40, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes we do, you just don't accept that people can read it that way. MEMORIAL is not about barring mention of people's names at all, it is about not including people's names when the ONLY actual information you are partaking to the reader is, 'this is the name of someone who died'. Like it or not, a significant majority of editors see that as an exercise in memorialising, as the 'others' part, and your interpretation that the policy does not cover in article text is just that, an intepretation. Unless or until it's clarified that it only applies to articles, you cannot use your interpretation to defeat anybody else's. That's just a fact you need to accept. MickMacNee (talk) 23:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how this policy, or any policy would bar us from mentioning the shooting victim in my example. WP:MEMORIAL refers to not memorializing non-notable deceased individuals by creating articles devoted to them. It does not prohibit mentioning the age and name of a crime or accident victim, as published in a reliable secondary source in relation to an article about a notable subject. If we were to prohibit any mention of any detail related to the article when the detail is not notable enough for an article about itself, 99% of our content would disappear. You are confusing the issue of creating an article to memorialize a deceased person with the mere mention, per reliable secondary source, that a person named X aged Y died in connection with an notable article. Crum375 (talk) 23:49, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm done here. I really have had enough of you telling me what it does and doesn't say, when it does nothing of the sort, and I'm certainly tired of being told what I really mean, what I'm confusing, or what my reasoning is, and your increasingly outlandish strawmen scenarios. If you think you really know what it means, and you think you really know how others see it, then go ahead and be bold, and see what happens. From what I can see, all it might take is the changing of a full stop to a comma or a dash. There's nothing more I can say here without resorting to repetition, and I'm not convinced you read it anyway, so I'm out. MickMacNee (talk) 00:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean by being "bold", since WP:MEMORIAL seems very clear to me as it stands. WP:MEMORIAL does not prohibit the name and age of a non-notable crime or accident victim to be included in an article about a notable subject, as published by a reliable secondary source in connection with that subject. What it does prohibit is to create an article about a person who died, unless that person meets Wikipedia's notability requirements. This is the current policy, and it is logical. If you think it needs to be changed, try to get consensus for your version. Crum375 (talk) 00:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Jesus christ. Is it just me, or does this post sound really absurd given it was Crum375 who actually started this talk page section by stating that some people seem to misinterpret MEMORIAL, and asking if his application of it was correct? Like I said, I'm done here, this discussion has drifted off into bizarro-land now. I've stated my opinion enough times, so you can like it or lump it. I'm content with my interpretation, and knowing that in your own words, some people seem to agree with me. We shall just have to agree to disagree on just when 'some' becomes 'many', but reading the Rfc, and knowing how this is current wording is interpreted in a hell of a lot of other articles too, especially aircrash ones, I know I can sleep peacefully tonight even if the wording is not changed and you potter off believing what you believe. It's you who had the problem with it in the first place, for crying out loud. I'm out, done, over, finito, gone. Arrivederci! MickMacNee (talk) 00:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Mick, please try to focus on the message, not the messenger. As I noted above, WP:MEMORIAL refers to creating articles about non-notable deceased persons. It does not apply to mentioning the name and age of a victim, per reliable secondary source, as part of a notable article. There is no prohibition on mentioning details, published by reliable sources in connection to an article subject, even if those details are not sufficiently notable to merit their own dedicated wiki articles. If you feel otherwise, you need to gain consensus to change the policy, which is very clear. Crum375 (talk) 01:04, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

It appears that if you keep repeating yourself here and at the RFC most people will just sigh and walk away as it is clear that you do not accept that most people, if the RFC and currect practice is a guide, dont interpret the policy the same way as you do. The listing of non-notable people in an accident article is to memoralize them and as the policy says Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others. it is clear that such lists are not encyclopedic. So as the policy is clear on the subject we dont have much more to discuss. Thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 12:24, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

If you have a wiki article about a crime or an accident, and you mention the name and age of the victim, as published in a reliable secondary source about the crime or accident, the mere mention of the name and age is not "memorializing" the victim. If your interpretation is correct, many existing wiki articles would have to be drastically censored. If the community wanted to prohibit mentioning the names of non-notable deceased persons as part of otherwise notable articles, the policy would not use the words "memorializing", it would say (for example): "do not mention a deceased person's name in an article unless that person was notable independent of his death". Perhaps we need a separate RfC focused on this issue only, not specific to aviation accidents, if there is any doubt about this point. Crum375 (talk) 12:41, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

This is a discussion about accident articles, again your are confusing victims of crimes and non-notable victims of air crashes it is a bit over the top to say that many articles would need to be changed as very few aircraft accident articles mention names of those that have died. MilborneOne (talk) 18:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

If there is a difference between a crime and an accident in this respect, I don't see it. The point is simple: WP requires that people be notable to have a dedicated article about them. It does not require that they be notable to be merely mentioned in another article, not about them, so long as there is a reliable secondary source connecting them to that article. So in the case of a non-notable accident or crime victim, there is nothing to prohibit mentioning their name and age in an article about the crime or accident, if a reliable secondary source mentions them in that connection. If there is any doubt about this issue, it should be clarified via an RfC here, and it has to be generic, about WP:MEMORIAL in general, as it applies to any crime or accident article, and in fact any article. Crum375 (talk) 21:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

If there is a difference between a crime and an accident in this respect, I don't see it which is the main problem and why you keep having circular arguments here and at the RFC. I have nothing more to add editors have made their point here and at the RFC the fact you interpret the guidelines different is going to take a long time to resolve if you cant see how others interpret the situation. And nothing to do with this talk page but plenty of other reasons have been mentioned why a list of non-notable accident victims is not notable to an accident even if carried in the news media. I will leave it to others to explain as I need time to work out under your scheme for example how we can draft a list of the 382,000 British victims of the second world war, nearly all of them mentioned in the media and on websites. MilborneOne (talk) 21:21, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a single secondary source listing all 382,000 British victims of the second world war, in relation to that war? If you need to research it bit by bit and build it up piecemeal, you'll never get them all, and it will be WP:OR to create a partial list. If you do find a long complete list for some large crime or accident (e.g. World Trade Center), because of the sheer size you'd need to create a separate article for it, or perhaps keep it on wikisource. In the more typical cases, where we have just a few names, or a few dozens, it can fit in a collapsible section in the main article, or be spelled out if it's very short. But the point is not how to do it, but the basic principle: if we have a reliable secondary source telling us fact X about notable article subject Y, fact X does not have to be so notable as to merit its own dedicated article. It's enough that we have the source telling us X is related to the article subject Y, and it's up to article Y's editors to decide what information to include, and how to present it, based on their perception of what's interesting (along with WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR compliance). If this is not clear, we should start an RfC here to clarify this very generic point. Crum375 (talk) 22:16, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

clarification on 'not a democracy'

Clearly wikipedia is not a political system, but equally clearly wikipedia has a political system (we have policies, rules of conduct, systems for problem solving and enforcement, etc). That's just a no-brainer: even anarchy is a political system, after all. is this worth clarifying? --Ludwigs2 23:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

It's moreso the fact that WP does not use voting or majority rules as would be from a democracy. Consensus, build on policy and guidelines, is what we implement. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

well (quibble-quibble) democracies are not defined by voting - voting is actually more consistent with republican systems than democracies. plus we don't have a section that says "Wikipedia is not a Fascist dictatorship", though the bald statement that wikipedia is not a democracy might tend to lead people to such a conclusion. Probably want to go straight to the point and rephrase it as "Wikipedia is not run by majority rule". --Ludwigs2 23:58, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The other aspect to consider is that we do have elections per a democracy, but those elections are not meant to influence content or consensus; no person is more elite than any other person in any case. Yea, a republic may be closer, but the point of the word "democrary" is that we have voting systems but they have no direct impact on WP's growth. --MASEM (t) 00:05, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

These phrases exist mostly to protect from wikilawyering from people expecting WP to behave like an actual government. We appear at first glance to have voting and elections but we really don't, that's just a structured way of handling discussions of consensus, and the side with more votes by headcount doesn't always win as it would in a real election. We appear to have rules but we really don't (WP:IAR). And so on. People shouldn't come to wikipedia (or indeed any website) with the expectation that it's going to work like a democracy, anarchy, communism, or anything bearing more than a passing resemblance to any real-world political system. Websites don't work like countries, for reasons that, I would hope, are obvious enough that they needn't be detailed here. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:52, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

yes, I understand the principles involved, I just don't think the language is particularly apropos. If we mean X (that wikipedia is a consensus-based system - which is in fact a form of democratic governance - not a voting system) then we should say X. We shouldn't say Y because it's a catchier phrase, and hope that people make the right associations to X. --Ludwigs2 16:28, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

But Wikipedia really isn't a democracy of any stripe. Don't forget that the people truly in power, Jimbo and Wikimedia staff, can and sometimes do override consensus on the site. Users can debate and confer all they want, but ultimately the real decision-making is done by people who aren't elected or in office by consensus of the community. This is as it should be--I've never known a website of any sort which was a genuine democracy, and any attempts at such would likely be wildly impractical. We say 'not a democracy' because it's not a democracy, and it would be unfair and even deceptive to pretend that it is a democracy, or it's kinda/sorta a democracy. It's not. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 18:13, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

You see, this is exactly the problem I have with this issue. The core principles of wikipedia outline that it is a consensus system (which is explicitly a form of democracy, though a bit idealistic for a group this large). Jimbo and the foundation can (and do) step in at need in order to preserve the legal existence of the foundation, but they do not otherwise (again, explicitly) use their authoritative power to decide community issues. what we have, consequently, is an unspecified set of political interactions, leaving some editors to interpret wikipedia as an anarchic system, some as a consensus system, some as an authoritative system based on different authoritative criteria. That's not so bad (it could be much better, but anarchy is relatively effective for the task of building the encyclopedia where it is sufficiently congenial, though it fails miserably in problem resolution areas), but it would be less confusing if we didn't actually make misleading political claims of this sort, which then get picked up in conflicts and used in odd and disturbing ways. --Ludwigs2 18:34, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Magic Jimbo-power has been used before in things not relating to legal issues though, and I can think of at least one example where the community was prohibited from debating a particular issue for a year (a good choice, IMHO, that probably saved infinite drama). I'm sure there have been other similar actions over the years too. It's true that consensus-building does go on, just as it does in any system. Even in an absolute monarchy, there's nothing stopping a person from asking his neighbours what colour he should paint his house and going with whatever colour gets the most votes, but if the king disliked it it would still have to be repainted regardless. That's essentially how Wikipedia works. The bottom line is that "Wikipedia is not a democracy" is and always has been a true statement, and makes a convenient point with which to inform people of that fact. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:51, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Section headings are not, and should not try to be, complete nutshells. Perhaps we need a whole new section like this:

Wikipedia is not for people who only read headlines

Someone who is reading an encyclopedia is digging for more information than can be gleaned by scanning headlines, and someone who volunteers to contribute to Wikipedia is expected to recognize that Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are not to be interpreted by looking only at titles and section headings.

If a heading prevents you from understanding or applying a Wikipedia policy or guideline, ignore it.

I jest about adding a section, because I believe that literate people already understand this. I think the catchphrases are useful, and I think the purport of this section of the rule is clear enough, even if one only reads the leading one or two sentences of each of the subsections in question, and does not really need further clarification. ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:15, 4 August 2010 (UTC)