User talk:Doncram

(e) as of Dec2010 as of Dec2014

DYK for Henry W. Cleaveland

Yngvadottir (talk) 00:02, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Punta Gorda Fish Co.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Thompson-Starrett Co.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:01, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Louden Machinery Company

The DYK project (nominate) 16:02, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Joseph C. Wells

The DYK project (nominate) 16:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Champion Bridge Co.

Graeme Bartlett (talk) 16:02, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Congratulations

		100000 Edits
		Congratulations on reaching 100000 edits! 100000 edits are so many that if you told people that you have one hundred thousands edits on Wikipedia, no one would believe you :) Keep up the good work within WikiProject National Register of Historic Places and other areas! jonkerz ♠talk 16:23, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I found this number through Special:NewPagesFeed, but X!'s Edit Counter gives 105,794 live edits and 107,423 total edits. [User:Jonkerz|jonkerz]] ♠talk 16:23, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing! Yep, it has been a lot of contributing, mostly on historic sites articles. --doncram 23:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Wow - that is quite an achievement. Congratulations! I really like some of the work you've been doing with the architects and especially the work that has been earning DYK's. Informative, non-contentiious, good solid work. dm (talk) 11:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I tend to think that all the work I have ever done over has been basically non-contentious, but that hasn't stopped contention from happening; I bear some responsibility for failing to stop what grew to become long-term bullying and nastiness that has been unpleasant for me and for others, but other NRHP editors and other Wikipedia editors have responsibility too. And I tend to think that, out of all the architect/builder/engineer articles I have created working off a list of 907 needed ones, that many of the less-well-developed ones are more important in some ways (supporting/linking individual NRHP site articles; establishing something valid where sources are less available/accessible to anyone but the local info is important). But point taken, that the better developed ones are indeed more satisfying reads. And I am happy to have readers and to have your appreciation in particular. Thanks! --doncram 14:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

DYK for Opa-Locka Thematic Resource Area

Casliber (talk · contribs) 16:03, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Granville Fuller House published

Thanks for assisting the originator! MatthewVanitas (talk) 17:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Official Congratulations

		100000 Edits
		Congratulations on reaching 100000 edits. You have achieved a milestone that very few editors have been able to accomplish. The Wikipedia Community thanks you for your continuing efforts. Keep up the good work!

If you like you can add this userbox to your collection.

This user has been awarded with the 100000 Edits award.

```Buster Seven Talk 13:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Congrats, that's a lot of edits :) --SPhilbrick(Talk) 19:04, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Great minds think alike, etc

Hi Doncram, I just noticed that you and I are working on drafts of the same topic - User:Doncram/Gibraltar (Wilmington, Delaware). I've already done a lot on it. Would you mind if I merged the non-overlapping bits of my version into yours? I'm planning to nominate it for Did You Know? with one of the following hooks:

• ... that the buildings and gardens of Gibraltar are listed on the United States National Register of Historic Places?

• ... that Gibraltar's gardens were laid out by one of America's first female landscape architects?

Let me know what you think! Prioryman (talk) 18:16, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I would be very glad to collaborate in that. :) Sorry if I jumped in after you, if I did; if yours was started first would be happy for your draft to absorb mine, instead. I had in mind a DYK possibly like:

• ... that Gibraltar was landscaped by a woman who was discriminated against in her MIT architectural training? who had struggled in a male-dominated field in the United States? or i don't know what. But those are not yet supported in the draft, and your suggestions are probably simply and better. By the way, did you know that there is actually a U.S. NRHP-listed site in Morrocco, for real, the American Legation, Tangier?

As you see i have been drafting the User:Doncram/Marian Cruger Coffin article which could be part of a double DYK, but actually i think a single DYK might work best. I have recently found and added the Gestram source but have not at all developed what is possible from that great source.

Look forward to editing together in this, thanks for inviting me. --doncram 19:57, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for your help! Prioryman (talk) 23:51, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I think it's now probably about ready to go. Could you take a look at it and let me know what you think? Prioryman (talk) 00:49, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

You have been nominated

See WP:Merchandise giveaways. Thank you again. Respectfully, Tiyang (talk) 12:38, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Christianity Barnstar
		Dear Doncram, I award you this barnstar for your wonderful efforts in the expansion of List of local Methodist churches! I hope this brightens your day! I hope to see more great contributions to WikiProject Christianity related articles from you! AnupamTalk 03:55, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Arbcom case and naming

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#User:Doncram and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for Arbitration;
• Wikipedia:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:49, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

@Doncram: You noted your concern about the naming of the case. You are correct in being concerned about the naming of the case. It is not a trivial matter, and it does poison the pond, as it were. I took a look at ArbCom cases from 2010 to 2012, noting 16 cases where editors were named in the title of the case. Two of those cases had two editors named, for a total of 18 editors named in the title of cases over the last three years. Here's the summary (note: this does not add up to 18 because some editors had multiple sanctions):

• Banned: 9
• Lost adminship: 4
• Topic banned: 4
• Edit restriction: 2
• No sanctions: 1 (Jayen466; just an interaction restriction)

In short, your doomed to some sort of sanction, with a 50/50 chance of being banned from the project. You should also be aware that because there is no statute of limitations on evidence, those opposing you in the arb case can drag up evidence from as far back as they'd like. They've already reached back nearly two years to April of 2011. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

That is a very poor summary, Hammersoft. The idea that he has a 50/50 chance of being banned from the project is blatantly false. Actions will not be taken at ArbCom by the flip of the coin. Everything will be based on the evidence produced. Ryan Vesey 17:24, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

...evidence which is a function of who chooses to show up and provide evidence, which is partly a function of how a case is framed and named. I commented further in the ARBCOM request. Thank you Ryan Vesey and Hammersoft both for your comments. I am really concerned. But here, I don't want to host a general discussion about the general truth of naming having an effect on outcomes. Could that be opened as an RFC somewhere, at a suitable ARBCOM page or at an administrative noticeboard, or somewhere else, please.

Please don't comment further on this point here, at least for now. I may remove further comments. --doncram 17:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

• Please feel free to delete this comment. I am not sure to which point you are referring, but suspect it's the possibility of sanctions. I just wanted to amplify the situation about the ability for opposers to go as far back in the past as they'd like. Since your one and only rfc is mentioned, it now goes back to February of 2010. We're at three years back now for evidence. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:31, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

First, based on Doncrams comments, I think the case has some merit both in Doncrams conduct and the conduct of others in the case so let me get that out first. With that said Ryan he stands much less than a 50/50 chance in this case. Its more like 95/5. Historically Arbcom won't accept a case unless they think the user in question is guilty so once the case is accepted, its pretty much the end. Additionally, they just can't seem to create a proper and fair case. Every single one seems to have problems that they do not care too or want too address. For example in this case I note the following problems:

1. The evidence is 2+years old with nothing being done by the community to attempt to correct this problem in more than a year. That to me does not show that the community has tried to resolve the problem
2. They are providing a 2 year old deleted RFC as evidence and are refusing to allow it to be seen or remove it as evidence. As I stated there, I understand the user is aware of the RFC and the general contents but the accused has a right to see the evidence presented against them. I also think that the other non admin folks like myself who are taking the time to comment should be able to see it.
3. Sarek is obviously involved and is the one that created the case. He even removed a comment I made noting that the deleted RFC was deleted as having no merit. I think and I hope that Arbcom looks closely at Sareks interactions in all this and acts appropriately there. But I'm not holding out hope. I have seen and know too much about the process to assume that the case will be done fairly or evenly. Since we do have some new blood in Arbcom I am hopeful but since they all had prior experience in Arbcom as clerks or a previous arbitration seat, I am not so sure.
4. The Arbcom rule that the comments must be restricted to 500 words but you can have an infinate number of commenters so the accused gets 500 words to respond to what in this case amounts to about 5000 so far and counting. The process is designed to unfairly favor the accusers and put the accused in a place of imbalance. Especially since they are normally non admins and cannot see the evidence presented (such as in this case) and in some cases cannot have an equal ability to do the things to defend themselves as the Admins and arbs do. The entire arb process is a shameful mess.

Personally I think this could have been handled by the community but because there are so many admins associated to the project acting like children, stomping their feet and pouting about it, they had to give it to Arbcom to decide. I anticipate it will result in blocks, potentially desysopping and at least some admonishments for some of the associated parties. Kumioko (talk) 15:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Well, it's a fait accompli. Despite reasonable, supported assertions that case naming can and will affect the outcome of the case (see Doncram's comments about anchoring), despite a fair bit of evidence that behavior of other involved parties has been very much less than satisfactory, ArbCom has gone ahead and named the case "Doncram". Since, as I've asserted and you assert above, it is effectively impossible for Doncram to have a fair hearing on these matters, Doncram is likely doomed to some heavy sanctions. --Hammersoft (talk)
  • I agree. I am still holding out hope that the Arbs will dig their heals in and go out and research the interactions of all parties before they make their decisions and not base it solely on the criticisms being left on the case. There are several sides to this story and the picture being painted at the moment is a jaded one. Kumioko (talk) 20:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Recusal for Coren

Given that Coren closed this thread from March of 2009 and in so doing refused to take action with respect to interactions between you and Orlady, it would be very appropriate for Coren to recuse from this case. Coren was sitting on ArbCom at the time, and is once again now sitting on ArbCom. Coren has prior involvement in this case, and may in fact be partly responsible for its continuance due to inaction on his part in the past. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:23, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't really think its necessary for Coren to recuse. I read this and checked his contribs about that time and it doesn't seem like they had any dog in this fight. He just closed the discussion. Besides there are several other arbs who will be voting and its unlikely that one vote will make a significant difference. Kumioko (talk) 20:40, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• For reference: Recuse#Applicable_to_most_countries bullet #4. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, if you want to suggest that Coren recuse himself from this case, I suggest you post on one of the arbitration pages or on User talk:Coren, as I'm sure you realize he is likely not reading here.

If my personal opinion is wanted on this recusal question, which it probably isn't, I think the thread you linked creates neither the actuality nor the appearance that Coren would be biased for or against any party to this case. The issue in the thread was different from the ones in the current case, the thread is four years old, and in any event, Coren didn't comment on the merits of the discussion. Skimming the archive you linked, it looks like Coren closed a couple of different threads that day in which he didn't otherwise comment. That means he read through the thread and, in this case, determined that the consensus was not to take any action, which can hardly be disputed. I suspect Coren will have completely forgot that he closed that thread unless and until someone brings it to his attention. It's Coren's decision whether or not to recuse on this basis, but if I were the arbitrator in question, I wouldn't. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm simply noting it as a possibility, and given Recuse#Applicable_to_most_countries bullet #4 it's hardly "unconstructive" (see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram/Workshop#Hammersoft) for me to note it. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:16, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm just saying I disagree with the suggestion; I'm not calling it any names. For what it's worth, I'm one of the main contributors to the recusal article, or at least its USA section, though that was some time ago and by today's content standards I should go back and reference most of it when I have the time. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

• Another view on this; same article sub section, bullet #6: Coren handled a case between two named parties in this case at a lower level. Now Coren is being asked to handle a case in the same dispute at a higher level. I'm not saying there's absolute grounds, but there is perhaps reason for Doncram to feel Coren should recuse. That was my sole point. As to the age of that thread, ArbCom has repeatedly refused to limit presentation of evidence, even from a very distant past. We're already at three years going in the past for evidence in this case. Four years is hardly a stretch. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:31, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you Hammersoft and Newyorkbrad, both, seriously, for your consideration here. I am concerned more about other problems in this arbitration than that, namely that I need more time than suggested deadlines are going to allow, and that I need more space/length than 500 or 1,000 words for all evidence in a dispute that has run for many years and with 4 other named parties all "against" me having equal word counts allowed. And the naming-of-case issue is serious. It is absurd to suggest that naming does not matter. Naming pretty clearly attracted one editor to comment with complaint about me, about their perception of my perhaps-too-strong comments to them about their removal of pics from NRHP articles (separate matter, not a matter of "bullying" but rather strong opinions about a content matter that is important, considered properly at wt:NRHP, not worth arbcom attention). IMO it is okay for that editor with a recent disagreement to bring it up, even without having long-informed perspective, but it is damaging in its appearance and IMO it would absolutely not have come up if the title was "Orlady-Nyttend-Doncram" or "DENOS" or some other name. And, it tended to add to a circus atmosphere, an appearance of "everyone" has a critical view regarding me. I believe that it did have some effect, while if "Orlady" was the title then it is quite possible a comparable other editor with recent gripe against that editor would have spoken instead. Naming as advertising which brings different comments forward is an obvious, undeniable cause for a case to sway differently. Even besides the advertising effect changing the comments given, there are thousands of academic articles in marketing and psychology documenting anchoring and other biases, and it is also absurd to suggest that the naming does not matter.

About Coren, I do not think that the closure of that Jvolblum proposal by Coren long ago should require Coren's recusal. It was a longshot proposal I knew when I wrote it. (Although I think it had merit and actually coulda worked, and it is evidence of me trying to do something constructive in a bad situation. The Jvolkblum case instead has spiralled on for 4 more years of Orlady combatting sockpuppets of that editor, who kinda was rightly aggrieved about bad treatment Orlady personally back then, and a change of admin/supervisor could have made all the difference. Anyhow, I don't recall thinking anything seriously amiss by the closure. I do recall that Coren commented pretty critically about me some other later time, but without my specifically finding that, and probably even if I did find that, I don't think a recusal is necessary. I would rather that Coren see the evidence in a fuller picture and come to a different judgment. Seriously, thank you both for your concern. --doncram 22:49, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Please trim your statement at arbitration case requests

Hi, Doncram. I'm an arbitration clerk, which means I help manage and administer the arbitration process (on behalf of the committee). Thank you for making a statement in an arbitration request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case. However, we ask all participants and commentators to limit the size of their initial statements to 500 words. Your statement significantly exceeds this limit. Please reduce the length of your statement when you are next online. If the case is accepted, you will have the opportunity to present more evidence; and concise, factual statements are much more likely to be understood and to influence the decisions of the Arbitrators.

For the Arbitration Committee,--Guerillero | My Talk 21:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Time for serious self reflection

Greetings Doncram and sorry to hear about the Arb filing. I hope it turns out well and you are allowed to keep editing. I think you do a lot of positive contributions and I hope you can continue to participate in the project. There are a lot of folks like me who have basically given up on contributing to articles so the place needs folks to keep editing. With that said I think you need to do some serious self reflection. I agree that several of the editors you have been dealing with have acted innappropriately but I think you also need to accept some responsibility for your actions as well. I agree with you that creating stubs isn't a bad thing but I also agree with them that when creating those you need to make sure that the informaiton is accurate and the article is littered with broken templates and categories. If that means taking a little longer to create it then thats ok. I also wanted to tell you that I think you are getting the short end of the stick and I have commented to Arb about some of the things that are occurring (like the age of the evidence and the unviewable red link). These are just some of the things I see Arbcom and company do repeatedly in cases that unfairly favors the accusers and hinders the accused, particularly if they are non admins. Anyway. Good luck and I hope this turns out ok. Kumioko (talk) 16:02, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Kumioko's remark that we ("Arbcom and company") routinely, deliberately put certain editors at a disadvantage, by using red-linked discussion pages and other trickery (or by any other method), is disingenuous and utterly noxious. Such a malicious falsehood strikes me as indicative of everything that is wrong with Wikipedia's community today, and I counsel anyone reading this page to disregard it entirely. AGK [•] 23:01, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Really? So then:

1. You allow non admins the ability to view red linked information when it is used against them as evidence?
2. Frequently include those comments from the accusers who are "involved" and are doing the accusing and then disregard the comments of those who are not accusing and are sometimes defending by placing their comments out of sight, out of mind on the talk page?
3. You do not usually allow multiple editors to comment, while limiting the rebuttal from the accused to be the necessary length to respond, frequently cutting it off at 500 words?
4. Take into evidence discussions at ANI and others, that took place, while the accused was blocked and did not have the ability to comment on them?
5. Allow a case to be built using information that is 2 years or more old without requiring something be done in the last 12 months?

So please, lets be honest here, although I may have been a little too harsh, the whole Arbcom process is a one sided, unfair and political tool and although I think very highly of you and several of the other Arbs, the process itself, is a complete joke and a mess. It provides almost no hope of a fair trial (historically) and the end result is nearly always Wikideath. You can be angry at my comments and not agree, but I am hardly a liar. If you don't like the comments, then fix some of these problems instead of continuing to perpetuate it! Kumioko (talk) 00:49, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Did I say I was angry, or display any anger whatsoever? I did not. Your rebuttal here is worse than wrong, so forgive my not responding. AGK [•] 16:33, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram opened

An arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram. Evidence that you wish the Arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence sub-page, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram/Evidence. Please add your evidence by January 17, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can contribute to the case workshop sub-page, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, (X! · talk)  · @805  ·  18:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

Your close request at NRHP

Your close request at the NRHP talk page is wrong:

• I am not frustrated by either the RFC/U or the NRHP project, and have never said anything like it. My comments were directed at AN/I, as it says in the ArbCom post ("there" immediately following my finding the AN/I post).
• You never actually apologized to me so there is no "again". The only apology from you was to the project as a whole for the disagreement with Orlady ("I am sorry to have baggage...").

I have left by choice and can choose to return; by misquoting me in a forum I frequented it can damage my reputation and alter how others perceive my editing in the future. Please refactor your post to remove the erroneous interpretations and add neutrality. I suggest "Thundersnow has posted here that they are no longer editing Wikipedia. Perhaps this RFC/U should be closed in light of that." Thundersnow 02:50, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for following up. I've tried now to respond to your comment here, by this followup at wt:NRHP. I hope this helps. Sincerely, --doncram 03:31, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

Friendly notification regarding this week's Signpost

Hello. This is an automated message to tell you that, as it stands, you are set to be mentioned in this week's Arbitration Report (link). The report aims to inform readers of The Signpost about the proceedings of the Arbitration Committee in a non-partisan manner. Please review the draft article, and, if you have any concerns, feel free to leave them on the talkpage (transcluded in the Comments section directly below the main body of text), where they will be read by a member of the editorial team. Please only edit the article yourself in the case of grievous factual errors (making sure to note such changes in the comments section). Thank you. On behalf of The Signpost's editorial team, LivingBot (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram/Evidence deadline approaching

This is a reminder that the deadline for evidence submission on the Doncram arbitration case is nearing. The deadline for submission is the 17th of January, one day from now. If you need more time for evidence submission, please ask the drafters of the case (NuclearWarfare and AGK) for an extension. (X! · talk)  · @863  ·  19:42, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration

Doncram -- I have been traveling for the past 10 days and see that an arbitration proceeding has been opened during that time. Unfortunately, the discussion period has ended. If you learn in the course of the proceeding that input from third parties is welcome, I will make time to add my thoughts. Those thoughts would include the following:

During the period when I agreed to follow/review your changes last summer/fall, there was a marked improvement in the areas that had been raised as concerns in prior discussions. The new articles you were creating were not sub-stubs during that time. Further, during the period of the voluntary separation from Orlady and Sarek, your interactions with other users was, to the best of my recollection, civil and appropriate.

I continue to think you are a valuable and hard-working contributor to Wikipedia and hope that a resolution can be reached that allows you to continue your participation.

I did not follow the flare-up about the caste system and don't know about the substance of that dispute. Without reading the whole history, I can't draw any conclusions, but I did find it somewhat surprising that an ANI discussion which began with Sitush reporting his own transgressions resulted in your being entirely blocked from editing in that area.

You and I have not always agreed on substantive matters (Architects of the NPS is an example), but when we disagree, it has been without rancor. This tells me that you do not automatically react with fire and venom whenever someone disagrees with you.

While a number of your articles have been nominated at AfD, my recollection is that most (all?) have been resolved in your favor. You may want to look into the statistics a bit. Of course, even when you are right, some may still take issue with the tone of your comments.

By far, the biggest issue that is likely to cause you problems in the arbitration is the level of rhetoric and rancor found in your comments and edit summaries when disputes have arisen with Orlady and Sarek. Calling Orlady "evil" serves no purposes. Even if you believe it, such comments are over the top, accomplish nothing, and end up backfiring by reflecting poorly on you. I do not think a ban on interaction between you and Orlady is likely to be ordered by the panel -- particularly since you are both very active in the NRHP area. In order for the arbitration to result in an outcome that is palatable, I think you need to accept responsibility for past transgressions, admit your mistakes, and commit yourself (sincerely) to interacting with Orlady, Sarek, and others in a civil manner, without unduly personalizing disputes, and without name-calling. Cbl62 (talk) 20:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Workshop headings

I tweaked your "Template" entries with hopefully-neutral titles so that edits to the sections would come back to the right place, instead of the first "Template" on the page. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Friendly notification regarding this week's Signpost

Hello. This is an automated message to tell you that, as it stands, you are set to be mentioned in this week's Arbitration Report (link). The report aims to inform readers of The Signpost about the proceedings of the Arbitration Committee in a non-partisan manner. Please review the draft article, and, if you have any concerns, feel free to leave them on the talkpage (transcluded in the Comments section directly below the main body of text), where they will be read by a member of the editorial team. Please only edit the article yourself in the case of grievous factual errors (making sure to note such changes in the comments section). Thank you. On behalf of The Signpost's editorial team, LivingBot (talk) 00:00, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram/Evidence deadline approaching... again

Hello, Doncram. This is to remind you that the extended deadline for evidence submission to this case (January 24th) is approaching. It does not appear as though you've added any evidence since the 18th, and still have a large number of unsubstantiated allegations in the section headings. Please note that if these sections remain empty when the evidence phase closes, the clerks have been instructed to remove them. It would also be helpful to provide your evidence as soon as possible to allow other parties adequate time to respond to any allegations you make against them. Thank you. If you have any questions, please contact me, another arbitrator or clerk, or ask on one of the case talk pages. Hersfold non-admin<sup>(t/a/c)</sup> 16:46, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I see you asked for another extension. Why not just make life simple and go to the workshop page, and request that I be banned entirely? I'm sure you'd like this solution, since you've already demonstrated that I don't give a flying flip about the accuracy of build dates, the difference between architects and builders, or anything else that's important. Besides, I got banned from a different forum amid allegations that I didn't represent the community with good quality and integrity, and an allegation that my work wasn't found suitable. Now, I don't know what you plan to propose against Orlady and Sarek, and I don't particularly care, but you've already had me waiting on tenterhooks trying to figure out how I'm going to be punished in this particular case. So why not just get it over with, and then someone else can fill in some of these articles about Catholic churches in central Minnesota. --Elkman <sup>(Elkspeak)</sup> 22:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

SarekOfVulcan, please desist from refactoring this Talk page

SarekOfVulcan, I notice that you removed the following Speedy deletion nomination notices here at my Talk page. I appreciate that you recognized they were not valid and removed the speedy noms. It would have been nice to receive simply a notice that that was done. However, you must not refactor my Talk page. This is too much like your refactoring and editing in the Arbitration proceeding you opened against me, and in many ANIs, and so on. Please stop. I have not so far deleted your postings at my Talk page, but I consider this a breach of etiquette, and I ask you never to make such a major refactoring again. I, or others not involved in long-running contention, can easily make such decisions. Again, thank you for deleting the speedy noms themselves, which indeed were incorrect. --doncram 23:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Chickamauga Lodge No. 221, Free and Accepted Masons, Prince Hall Affiliate

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A tag has been placed on Chickamauga Lodge No. 221, Free and Accepted Masons, Prince Hall Affiliate requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Jhfireboy Talk 04:13, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Columbian Lodge No. 7 Free and Accepted Masons

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A tag has been placed on Columbian Lodge No. 7 Free and Accepted Masons requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

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Speedy deletion nomination of Highlands Masonic Lodge

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A tag has been placed on Highlands Masonic Lodge requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about an organization or company, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that the page was nominated in error, contest the nomination by clicking on the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion" in the speedy deletion tag. Doing so will take you to the talk page where you can explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. You can also visit the page's talk page directly to give your reasons, but be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but do not hesitate to add information that is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, you can contact one of these administrators to request that the administrator userfy the page or email a copy to you. Jhfireboy Talk 04:19, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

"uber alles"

Please explain the use of the phrase "uber alles" in this edit. All I know about it is what I have read in our Wikipedia article, but that doesn't particularly seem like an acceptable reference. NW (Talk) 16:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

It's a German language phrase, it means "above all". Using it perhaps also connotes something stronger, from context of how German anthem uses it, in context of Germany above all other nations. In that way it has a bit of a wikipedia-type battleground sense, i think, which is what i believe I meant to convey. As in no compromises, only this consideration matters, no other priorities/goals/considerations have any bearing, uncompromising. Anyhow, I take it this is not understood or seems foreign or something, so I just changed my usage from "uber alles" to "above all other considerations". --doncram 19:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I and apparently someone else who emailed me took it as a reference to the Third Reich! Thanks for the clarification and the change. NW (Talk) 21:04, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Friendly notification regarding this week's Signpost

Hello. This is an automated message to tell you that, as it stands, you are set to be mentioned in this week's Arbitration Report (link). The report aims to inform readers of The Signpost about the proceedings of the Arbitration Committee in a non-partisan manner. Please review the draft article, and, if you have any concerns, feel free to leave them on the talkpage (transcluded in the Comments section directly below the main body of text), where they will be read by a member of the editorial team. Please only edit the article yourself in the case of grievous factual errors (making sure to note such changes in the comments section). Thank you. On behalf of The Signpost's editorial team, LivingBot (talk) 00:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

deletion discussion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Congregational churches, which involves two articles you created. Mangoe (talk) 17:34, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Your Arbitration evidence is too long

Hello, Doncram. Thank you for your recent submission of evidence for the Doncram Arbitration case. As you may be aware, the Arbitration Committee asks that users submitting evidence in cases adhere to limits regarding the length of their submissions. These limits, currently at 1000 words and 100 diffs for parties and 500 words and 50 diffs for all others, are in place to ensure that the Arbitration Committee receives only the most important information relevant to the case, and is able to determine an appropriate course of action in a reasonable amount of time. The evidence you have submitted currently exceeds at least one of these limits, and is presently at 3146 words and 21 diffs. Please try to reduce the length of your submission to fit within these limits; this guide may be able to provide some help in doing so. If the length of your evidence is not reduced soon, it may be refactored or removed by a human clerk within a few days. Thank you! If you have any questions or concerns regarding the case, please contact the drafting Arbitrator or case clerk (who are listed on the case pages); if you have any questions or concerns about this bot, please contact the operator. On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, HersfoldArbClerkBOT<sup>(talk)</sup> 02:02, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Your latest comments at ArbCom

Regarding this claim: Why don't you just come out and say what you truly mean? Why don't you just come right out and say that I'm a lying sack of shit who has absolutely no business being on Wikipedia or on any other Web site where competence is required? Why don't you just come out and tell me that I'm too stupid to know the difference between an architect and a builder, or that I'm too stupid to figure out when a building is built? You told me once that my claim about the Floyd B. Olson House having been built in 1922 was completely wrong, based on "your informed understanding of how the NRIS database works". I guess that means that Larry Millett was also wrong about it being built in 1922, and that the Hennepin County land records are also wrong about it being built in 1922. But no, that doesn't matter to you. You have an "informed understanding".

Given that you have an "informed understanding", and I'm just a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who doesn't know how to use a database or any other sources, I'm surprised you haven't suggested a remedy saying that I'm permanently banned from Wikipedia and from any other Web sites where I'm supposed to act with quality and integrity. I'd comment more, but I need to get to work. Oh, and you might as well tell me I'm not doing a good job at my employer right now, because you have an "informed understanding" of how the transportation industry and the Java language work, and you can use "intelligence and care" that I'm just too stupid to figure out. --Elkman <sup>(Elkspeak)</sup> 14:04, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Ways to improve Our Lady Star of the Sea, Seaforth

Hi, I'm Abhishek191288. Doncram, thanks for creating Our Lady Star of the Sea, Seaforth!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. Hi. Thanks for the article. Would be glad if you could expand it in a few days. Cheers

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse.

Hi, thanks. Please see User talk:Allan James McDonald. I started the article as a stub to be supportive of this new user's first edits in Wikipedia, where the user added the item to a disambiguation page. Technically it is not right to have a non-wikilinked item in a dab page, so a dab-focused editor would likely remove it. In this case I judge it worthwhile to help the item along by starting a stub. Thanks for caring. --doncram 17:07, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Our Lady Star of the Sea, Seaforth

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A tag has been placed on Our Lady Star of the Sea, Seaforth requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person, organization (band, club, company, etc.), web content or organised event, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable.

If you think that your page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Click here to contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be removed without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. If the page is deleted, and you wish to retrieve the deleted material for future reference or improvement, you can place a request here. 69.95.203.72 (talk) 20:18, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion tag was appropriately removed by another editor, with note anticipating that the building is a listed building, which i had already suggested to the new editor who seems to be interested in the topic.

To the non-logged in editor: You appear to be an experienced Wikipedia editor. Would you please identify yourself to me (by email if you wish, and I would keep your identity private. I am concerned that I don't want to deal with various parties who are involved in long-running contention against me, including in current arbitration case. I don't care to chat idly in a friendly way with someone who is busy seeking to impose nasty consequences like getting me blocked from Wikipedia in another forum. Identify yourself in some way to differentiate yourself from those parties, or shut up, please... meaning please don't post further, and/or I will delete any further posts you make here. If you are not such a person great, just help with the new editor who is interested in the Lady of the Sea church topic. --doncram 22:58, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Curry House (Fort Adams, Mississippi)

The article Curry House (Fort Adams, Mississippi) has been proposed for deletion because of the following concern:

This house's supposed notability is entirely due to the fact that someone took a picture of it, unless we consider any structure photographed as part of the Historic American Buildings Survey to be automatically notable. Filtering out Wikipedia and Library of Congress mirrors, it has negligible coverage.

While all contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, content or articles may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the {{proposed deletion/dated}} notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

Please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Removing {{proposed deletion/dated}} will stop the proposed deletion process, but other deletion processes exist. In particular, the speedy deletion process can result in deletion without discussion, and articles for deletion allows discussion to reach consensus for deletion. BDD (talk) 22:48, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of Curry House (Fort Adams, Mississippi) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Curry House (Fort Adams, Mississippi) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Curry House (Fort Adams, Mississippi) until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article. BDD (talk) 02:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

State designations

Hi Doncram,

I wanted to create designations for some of the U.S. sates, but I wanted to get your opinion on them first and see if you thought they were appropriate. Examples and a list of links to the state list pages can be found here (I already created the city ones). Let me know if you think there are any I shouldn't create. Cacw (talk) 02:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Result change?

I may be miscounting, but I think 2.3 just passed, which would mean 1 is not currently passing. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:20, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Nomination of National Register Information System for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article National Register Information System is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/National Register Information System until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 22:53, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

In light of the arbitration decision, I've procedurally closed Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/National Register Information System — we can't have an AFD in which the page's creator may not respond because of who the nominator is. This way, if someone else renominate it, you'll be able to continue replying. My opinions of what should be done with the article didn't play into this decision. Nyttend (talk) 12:59, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Someone pointed out to me that it's unfair to the AFD participants to force them to start all over again, so I've opened a second nomination (note that I'm neutral) without your comments and Sarek's. Nyttend (talk) 13:22, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

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Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram closed

An arbitration case regarding Doncram has now closed and the final decision is viewable at the link above. The following remedies have been enacted:

1. Doncram is placed under a general probation indefinitely. Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions if, despite being warned, Doncram repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any normal editorial process or any expected standards of behavior and decorum. These sanctions may include blocks, page or topic bans, instructions to refrain from a particular behavior, or any other sanction that the administrator deems appropriate. Sanctions imposed under this remedy may be appealed as if they were discretionary sanctions. Doncram may not appeal this restriction for one year and is limited to an appeal once every six months thereafter.
2. Doncram is indefinitely restricted from creating new pages, except for redirects, in article space. He may create new content pages in his user space, at Articles for Creation, in a sandbox area within a WikiProject's area, or in similar areas outside of article space. Such pages may only be moved to article space by other users after review. This restriction may be appealed to the Committee after one year.
3. For edit warring with Doncram, SarekOfVulcan is strongly admonished to behave with the level of professionalism expected of an administrator.
4. SarekOfVulcan and Doncram are indefinitely prohibited from interacting with each other (subject to the ordinary exceptions).
5. The question of how substantive the content of a stub must be before it can legitimately be introduced to the mainspace as a stand-alone article cannot be decided by the Arbitration Committee. If the project is to avoid the stub guideline becoming a recurring problem in the future, we suggest to the community that this question may need to be decided through a deliberate attempt at conducting focussed, structured discussions in the usual way.

For the Arbitration Committee, (X! · talk)  · @277  ·  05:39, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Discuss this

Your submission at Articles for creation

Almon A. Covey House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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hmssolent\<sup>Let's convene</sup> <sub>My patrols</sub> 10:56, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Henry Dinwoody House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:09, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

William Culmer House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:27, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Thomas and Mary Hepworth House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Modernistic qualitative research

Hi, just a reminder that you have it marked as under review. —rybec 05:13, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

William Hawk Cabin, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 23:11, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Albert Fisher Mansion and Carriage House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 23:20, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Emanuel Kahn House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:01, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Exchange Place Historic District, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:01, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Eldean Covered Bridge, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 00:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Carl M. Neuhausen House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.

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TheCatalyst31 <sup>Reaction•Creation</sup> 00:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Lewis S. Hills House (425 E. 100 South), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 13:59, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Jonathan C. and Eliza K. Royle House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:02, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

David Keith Mansion and Carriage House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 14:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Hollywood Apartments, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 16:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Tenth Ward Square, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 16:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Sweet Candy Company Building, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 16:58, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Albert H. Kelly House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:00, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Utah Commercial and Savings Bank Building, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 17:25, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Frederick Albert Hale

I don't want to make a big deal out of this because I think your recent work through AfC has been great in my opinion. I understand that it's not the most ideal process for you to have to go through, but I think it works well and will quell most criticism from the editors involved in your ArbCom case (as well as me). Maybe after the 6 months or year (I forget which), an appeal will be approved so that you don't have to go through all of this.

The reason for my comment is this edit to the Frederick Hale article. I don't disagree with the edit (except maybe I would set up a dab page at Fred Hale), but I do disagree with its timing. I didn't take the time to look up a policy or anything, but I'm pretty sure putting redlinks in hatnotes is discouraged. I realize that the redlink will turn blue very soon, as soon as someone approves the AfC article (which I would do now if I wasn't too lazy to familiarize myself with the process haha :P), but I think it might be good to wait until an article is moved into article space to perform an edit like this in the future. That way if anyone does find fault with this or future AfC submission, they don't have to track down things like this. I won't revert the edit or anything, but I wanted to point it out for the future.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 17:55, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Now that the article is in main space, I think it might be beneficial to set up a dab page at Fred Hale. There info there is about a "Fred Hale" known for being one of the oldest people ever, but there's also: Fred Hale (footballer), Frederick Hale a US senator, now Frederick Albert Hale the architect, Frederick Harding Hale from Canada, Frederic Hale Parkhurst from Maine, and possibly some others.. I think that many definitely deserves a dab page. I'm pretty sure it's ok for you to do that, but if you don't think Arbcom would like it, I'll do it.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 02:43, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for promoting the architect article and for making the unrelated dab page.

I don't think i can start a dab page. Else I would have done so at the time, instead of adding that mention at the Frederick Hale article which you criticized above. It was what I could do. I did see the footballer one and the old guy one, but not the other ones you have found. The page could be at either Fred Hale or at Frederick Hale with redirect from the other. The senator page needs to be moved with edit summary "make way for disambiguation", perhaps to Frederick Hale (senator)...its name is not terribly important as someone watching the senator page will move it to a better name if one is more obvious to them. The old guy should be moved probably to Fred Harold Hale, Sr. with similar edit summary. Something like:

Fred Hale or Frederick Hale may refer to:

• Frederick Albert Hale (1855-1934), American architect
• Frederick Hale (senator) (1874-1973), U.S. senator from Maine
• Fred Harold Hale, Sr. (1890-2004), supercentarian
• Fred Hale (footballer) (b.1979), Solomon Islands footballer
• Frederick Harding Hale (1844-1912), member of Canadian Parliament

{{disambiguation}}

If you feel inspired, please go ahead. Thanks, --doncram 03:20, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

 Done--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 05:21, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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Wrong Keith building

One of your new Salt Lake City NRHP articles, David Keith Mansion and Carriage House, has a serious issue. The title and photo match, but all the other info is from another NRHP property, the Keith-O'Brien Building. Ntsimp (talk) 16:27, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Doncram, are you also banned from moving articles? I'm pretty sure you aren't, although that may have been part of the arbcom decision that I somehow glossed over. I see you've now started a new submission at AfC, but I don't think that's necessary. You can just move the David Keith Mansion and Carriage House article to Keth-O'Brien Building, and that will solve everything. I was about to do so, but I wanted to notify you first because you seem to be actively working on this as I type...--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 17:54, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Ntsimp for noticing, and Dudemanfellabra for offering to help. Moving would have been one option, but then a new AFC about the mansion would be confusing, as there already is an AFC page about that. Anyhow I've now revised the article to be about the mansion and put in an AFC at Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Keith-O'Brien Building for the other one. Both associated with David Keith, and not entirely coincidentally, they are both works of architect Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Frederick Albert Hale. The move that would be most helpful would be to put that architect article into mainspace, so that links back and forth could be set up. The AFC process seems fine for promoting house/building articles but less so for person articles. I think AFC reviewers are overwhelmed by bogus person articles and can't easily tell that this one is a valid article. Thanks. --doncram 18:13, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if I the way you just did that was technically allowed under the result of your arbcom case. I'm not going to report it or anything, but I feel like you kind of gamed the system by just changing everything in the article already in mainspace and creating a new AfC with already approved material. When User:FoCuSandLeArN promoted the original article from AfC, (s)he signed off on the text about the Keith-O'Brien Building. The new text you've just added has technically not been approved by any other editor (although I find nothing wrong with it myself, part of the reason I'm not reporting anything anywhere). I believe the ideal method of doing this would have been to move the existing article to Keith-O'Brien Building and begin a new AfC for the Keith Mansion and Carriage House. That said, if someone were to report this, I believe the community would let it slide this time, especially since the ban is so new.

As for the Frederick Hale AfC, I personally don't think that architect article is ready for mainspace and I've disliked just about every architect article you've created over the past year or so before the ban. The formatting of just listing basically raw output from the NRIS looks horrendous; prose is always preferable to lists. I may look into improving the text a little bit--maybe even figure out how to go through the process of promoting it to mainspace. I already commented above about some edits regarding this architect and how I don't think you should add links to the article before it's promoted, but maybe this one will be improved/promoted soon.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 18:32, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Dudemanfellabra, if you want to help develop articles about historic sites and related things, then great. If you want to prosecute me, to kick me when I am down, or anything else, please don't. Please try to avoid the appearance of harassment. I don't think this exchange is a friendly one. --doncram 20:30, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Your response to my comment is indicative of why there was an arbcom case regarding your behavior in the first place. My comment was meant to point out something that I thought might be a violation of the results of that case, which could in theory (though not likely in practice) result in you being blocked/banned--something that I believe would be a disservice to the NRHP project and Wikipedia as a whole. I clearly said I wasn't going to report you and that I would try to help flesh out your architect article (which I did), yet you automatically jump to the conclusion that I'm "kicking you when you're down."

I think a lot of your work is great, as I've said several times, and from the number of AfC approvals on this page, I'm not the only one. No one is going to like everything you do, and the same can be said for any editor, including me. The problem I have with you is not entirely content-driven but is mostly rooted in responses like these. Not everyone is out to get you. Pointing out something like this doesn't mean I'm out to get you, nor does it mean that anyone else is out to get you. I'm going to continue to try to expand the Hale article and maybe move it into mainspace before long if someone doesn't beat me to it. Try not to take everything so personally.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 21:04, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I did not jump to that conclusion, i suggested it was a possibility. If the shoe fits. Yep, i am a tad sensitive. I don't think you or anyone would like to have people following and judging incessantly, seeming to try to find fault. Your further comment is mixed... sure, thanks for developing the Hale article some, which i had not really expected. Not so much thanks for your offhand judgements. Note you have found fault in each of three postings showing on this page. It is not normal for persons in real life, at least not anyone that I know or would choose to associate with, to find fault continuously. Consider if you would speak this way to me in person. I doubt that you would speak that way to anyone. And, let this conversation stop, okay. --doncram 21:19, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

dab page needed

If someone would like to help, please start disambiguation page at Trinity Presbyterian Church (just now made into a redirect by moving away the Virginia article), with the following:

Trinity Presbyterian Church may refer to:

• Trinity Presbyterian Church (San Francisco, California), NRHP-listed and listed as a San Francisco Designated Landmark
• Trinity Presbyterian Church (Charlottesville, Virginia)

{{disambiguation}}

And what links here search indicates that there is a New Zealand historic site of this name, too, which can be added later.

Just trying this. --doncram 22:15, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

 Done--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 01:44, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:20, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Keith-O'Brien Building, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 15:22, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Joseph Adams House (Layton, Utah), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 16:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Rest Haven Cemetery, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:29, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Franklin City Cemetery, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:31, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Nolensville School, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Airlie (Natchez), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:05, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Farmington Tithing Office, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:16, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Bountiful Historic District, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Oak Hill Welsh Congregational Church, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:19, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Henry Blood House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:20, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Barnard-Garn-Barber House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 21:26, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Downtown Main Street Historic District (East Hartford, Connecticut), which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 13:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Enfield Shakers Historic District, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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Zaminamina Eh Eh Waka Waka Eh Eh 20:07, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Fully articled lists

It seems not many people care enough to comment at the project talk page about this issue haha. In your comment there, you mentioned the idea of replacing the "by state" stuff with a map shaded by percent illustrated/articled. That caught my interest, so I started a little project. I didn't want to post it on the project talk page because I didn't want anyone else editing it yet (so please don't you edit it either, if you don't mind.. that's why I kept in my user space). I copied the list of all counties in the US from List of United States counties and county-equivalents and am slowly working on converting it to a list of the number and percentage of properties illustrated and articled in each county in the US. After I get all the tables converted (but not filled in), I plan on moving it to a project subpage and opening it up for all editors to work on their areas of interest. I have tallied up everything for Alaska, Hawaii, and Nevada–the three smallest states. For these three states I was able to make exactly the map you requested, shaded from red to green based on how illustrated and articled they are. I have not uploaded the image, but I can email it to you if you'd like.

I just wanted to let you know about this (but like I said, I want to finish table-izing myself, so please don't edit there). I envision including the image(s) on the main page, as well as a list of all the fully illustrated/articled lists, then linking to this giant collection of data as a subpage. What do you think? I think that would satisfy both of us.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 05:36, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I like what you're doing at User:Dudemanfellabra/Sandbox. Not clear where you're going exactly, in terms of creating 50 separate state-specific maps with county detail, and/or whether you headed towards a single US-wide map like 25or6to4's one on wp:NRHP page. Any which way, seems great. Also it would be desirable if the system were easy to maintain, and this counting is difficult. But maybe, after a first manual counting by you, a bot could be created that would do the counting of #illustrated (besides those having image "Address restricted") and #articled. To assist greatly in later occasional updates. Or maybe it could be requested now? (wp:botrequest) --doncram 15:35, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I am making one map of the whole country. I just sent what I have to your email. I also thought about a bot, but I want to table-ize by hand and then maybe try to develop some code that fill them in automatically.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 19:28, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Great. The pics are great! i just looked at them. As I commented at User talk:25or6to4 though, i wonder if a single color is better; as going from red to dark green in the wp:NRHP US map image brings attention to the least priority counties, which would be better indicated by being faintest. For yours, meaning of red and meaning of green make some sense. Not sure but I think visually that single color from light to dark is easier to interpret though. And, another thot: you could use NRHP blue color. And, a next generation could be mapping of the "Start" level quality articles, and then map the C level ones, as the project moves along. If the maps are liked, and if there will be more of them, then importance of bot (or whatever automation you can dream up) is more important.

In your labelling of the image, I am sure you would report the date of the counting. And on wp:NRHP we could build a sequence of multiple small images, i.e. see our progress from date to date. So whatever image you make, include a date in it, and plan to add a new image later rather than writing over this one. We can never go back and tabulate what the status was at any previous time, i think that is impossible to count. And these images could be a great visual record of the history of wp:NRHP. Again, great work. Cheers, --doncram 19:57, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I had tried to make individual state and nationwide maps of completeness using Elkman's databases, since they could be exported to csv and brought into GIS software. But I ran into a couple problems. The first is that not every county has it's own separate page, for instance the Four Texas lists combine a number of counties. So the database would have to be computed by hand, which would take prohibitively long. The second is that the csv files don't separate the counties by state, so any county name found in multiple states duplicated the progression amount of the first in the list. I was going to fiddle around with it today, but our GIS server is not cooperating, so I'm stuck for the time being. I personally like the color scheme where it is for my current map, but the "None" could use some slight toning down. If you have any suggestions, let me know. 25or6to4 (talk) 17:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Ebenezer Grant House, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 20:34, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Woodrow Wilson School (Fargo, North Dakota)

Just to bring it to your attention because I know you worked on creating articles there, it turns out North Dakota is not fully articled. There is still one article not created in Cass County: Woodrow Wilson School (Fargo, North Dakota), listed October 24, 2012.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 22:47, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Tower Rock

Entire contents, aside from {{disambig}}, were

Tower Rock is a landmark island in the Mississippi River, in Perry County, Missouri.

Tower Rock may also refer to:

• Tower Rock (Cascade, Montana), listed on the NRHP in Montana

It's easily the first of the two cases of {{Db-disambig}}. Nyttend (talk) 14:10, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

No point in the talk page; two of the three edits were simply it getting moved, and the other was you tagging it with {{DisambigProject}} and {{WikiProject NRHP}}. Meanwhile, Bkonrad has undeleted the page out of process, so I can't undelete it. Nyttend (talk) 14:31, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Let me remind you of something from the intro of WP:CSD: "The creator of a page may not remove a speedy deletion tag from it". I won't restore because the page has been expanded, but it would be appreciated if you were to refrain from lecturing me on policy violations while doing something that gets treated as vandalism when repeated a few times in short succession. Nyttend (talk) 14:59, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Massacoe Forest Pavilion, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 16:56, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Suffield Historic District, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 18:40, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation

Marlborough Tavern, which you submitted to Articles for creation, has been created.
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FoCuSandLeArN (talk) 18:42, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Massacoe Forest Pavilion

Hi Doncram. You seem to have created a duplicate article at Massacoe Forest Pavilion. You yourself previously created an article on the same topic at Massaco Forest Pavilion. One of them should be redirected to the other. Thanks. --Polaron | Talk 03:15, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Merged to older article, requested move over redirect. Was always at a typo, my bad. Really, thanks. --doncram 14:38, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

Hello

I see that you have moved forward since what was decided at arbitration. You have continued contributing to Wikipedia. It is a manifestation of your commitment to Wikipedia. I wish your editing privileges are reinstated in full some day, sooner the better. Regards. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:54, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

Arbitration enforcement

Since I warned you at Talk:O'Connor House against further violations of WP:WIAPA, and since you've continued both there and at the start date template discussion (e.g. "seriously, do you care about accuracy?"), I've requested arbitration enforcement. Nyttend (talk) 15:33, 30 March 2013 (UTC)