User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

Swiss/Nepal/Vatican flag icons aligned after 6.5 years

This is just FYI as done. Well, after weeks of further discussions, I think the "consensus" is the new height of x16px for the Swiss/Vatican flag icons and x17px for Nepal's icon.

• Current default sizes: (17–16–16–15–15px height)

Those icon heights, of x17px and x16px, allow all major nation/territory flags to be displayed within text lines, or wikitables, with precise, professional alignment. The size of the Swiss flag icon (in 27,000+ pages) had become the poster child of "delayed improvements" where the problem appeared by early 2007, was partially bypassed 5 years ago by Template:CHE size x17px, plus suggested for resizing in 2011, then re-suggested in May 2013, and finally fixed 6.5 years later (on 19 June 2013, but also fixing the Nepal and Vatican icon heights). This fixes the flag-icon alignment in all sports and Olympic articles. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:13, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to interrupt, but is this kind of content really germane to Jimbo's talk page? I mean, with all due respect to the great man, he isn't our technical GodKing. — This, that and the other (talk) 10:49, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Jimbo's advice, as both a computer programmer and a manager ...has provided remarkable improvements. When the wp:CS1 cite templates were slowing articles to edit-preview in 25-45 seconds (or reformat image sizes), you might recall I created a fix-it Template:Fcite (July 2012) as a desperate quick solution which some people wanted to delete because, even though 6x faster, it omitted some major parameters. Others were certain the path was to re-hammer/force {cite_web} to miraculously run faster, like a covered wagon upgraded to sportscar (by 300 more horses?), or perhaps as Francis Bacon "stuffing a chicken with snow" to preserve it? Instead, Jimbo advised to keep {Fcite}, use "sparingly" and treat it as a "experiment" (recall: dif631) for better solutions, so I worked on that experimentation path (rather than desperate fixes) for a few weeks and created Template:Cite_quick which handled all 45 major cite parameters, and allowed article "Barack Obama" to display all navboxes and reformat 2x faster just before(!) the 2012 U.S. Presidential Election. Plus get this: {Cite_quick} still ran 5x faster than {cite_web} then and even handles more cites than the gargantuan, complex Lua script version with Module:Citation/CS1. In fact, when the Lua programmer User:Uncle_G went on 3-month wikibreaks, I finished rewriting the Lua-based version to match the wp:CS1 format of {cite_web} and {cite_book}, based on knowledge I had gained by Jimbo's advice to "experiment" and that is why the Lua-based cite templates were ready for use in early March this year (rather than a year later), because I had made hundreds of crucial corrections in the Lua module based on Jimbo's advice to treat {Fcite} as an experimental step. Well, the Lua-based cites made major articles reformat 3x-4x times faster (often within 7 seconds, not 25) and auto-corrected 15,000 typos, as of April 2013 (when 10,055 more users edited articles than expected), and it was Jimbo's support (recall: dif473 and other people's work) that made fast edits possible in early 2013. However, few of those extra ten thousand active editors (or 100,000 others) knew Jimbo's pivotal role in making their editing run 3x faster in April 2013. Why else experiment with 230 cite parameters? The key issue is advice about technology. So, answer the question now: "Is this kind of content really germane to Jimbo's talk page?". -Wikid77 15:05/16:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Personally I like reading Wikid77's updates. The hard work that he and others are doing is very much appreciated by us non-technical editors. I'm sure Jimbo doesn't mind being kept informed. Prioryman (talk) 19:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree with Prioryman and Wikid. Seems to me User talk:This, that and the other is being a bit of a troll in this instance. It's still Jimbo's personal talk page and not a policy talk page or village pump, this is the type of discussion that Jimbo has decided he likes having on his page, then that is his decision not even consensus of the Community can decide what someone can/cannot have on their talk page as long as it does not violate our policies.Camelbinky (talk) 20:01, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be a troll; I made the comment because I genuinely believed that no-one had any interest in these posts. But I can see now that that's obviously not true. Even so, I would be interested to know whether Jimbo is actually interested in them, since this is his talk page after all. — This, that and the other (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm keenly interested. I don't always respond but I always read. And as Albacore says, below, it's a nice break from all the bickering! :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, there you go. I've been proved wrong, and I think that's a good thing in this case. Nice to hear from you, Jimbo! — This, that and the other (talk) 07:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• I enjoy reading the updates as well. It's nice to hear about the improvements we're doing on WP, and it's a nice break from all the bickering. Albacore (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Focus on fixing most irritating computer problems: What I try to emphasize, in computer technology, is to fix the problems which cause "98%" of frustration. This is like a variation of the "80/20 Rule" but as "98/2" where ~2% of computer problems cause 98% of all the I-hate-computers trouble. The amazing thing I discovered, by writing my own graphics or text-editing software for years, was that when I was able to upgrade the software myself to improve any problems (with no other "developers" to confront), then the software became "98% perfect" or "98% paradise" despite numerous people claiming that computers would always be frustrating. Not so; instead, people need to be able to tailor the computer interface to their own habits, quickly, to reduce many frustrations instantly. Just a few problems are the cause of 98% of frustrations. The 3 oversized flag icons were 3 out of 350, and caused the misalignment in many hundreds of articles, but now all that frustration is gone, by fixing 3 flag-icon sizes. I wish we could get people to focus on fixing the most-frustrating problems sooner, such as edit-conflicts, rather than all the bizarre "side-show" trinkets or widgets they seem to obsess over. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Collaboration and cooperation rather than frustration: Wider, faster cooperation is a big advantage in wiki editing, as seen by "99.9999% of Wikipedia was written by other people" without requesting much approval for cooperation. Although some minor user-interface glitches can be frustrating, such as buttons at bottom-of-screen rather than being mid-screen buttons, the blocks against cooperation can also be frustrating. In a sense, edit-conflicts which should be auto-corrected are blocking the automatic cooperation to work with other users, on the same paragraphs, without defining a "coordination plan" to schedule when users can edit which sections. If edit-conflicts were simply reduced to allow multi-user edits to adjacent lines, then that would mean better "automatic" cooperation between users. Now, in a broader sense, the MediaWiki software should empower users to gain better cooperation in wider updating of pages, plus the templates and tools. The quick aspect of "wiki" editing is due to bypassing approval cycles, such as in other systems which require pages to be "checked-out" for exclusive editing and then "checked-in" for verification, before allowing edits by other users. Instead, the wiki editing can allow instant cooperation of people editing different paragraphs, and if fixed, to allow editing of adjacent lines. The key concept is to reduce the levels of "pre-approval" or "conflict-awareness" so that the software facilitates easier cooperation between multiple users, editing adjacent lines or updating shared flag-icon templates with easier, automatic approval, rather than so much "discussion to gain collaboration". Bottom line: another major cause of frustration is the software blocking the cooperation possible in updating pages and tools. So we could also emphasize people to create a wider variety of edit-tools, or graphing-tools, without waiting for approval of others to write or update the tools. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

• Alternatives with easier approval steps: Given the risk of how many major templates must be protected, from hack-edits which could garble thousands of pages, then a possible avenue for advancement would be to encourage a "few" alternative templates (or computer tools or widgets or article micro-pages) with limited use, and also limited approval cycles, to allow quicker improvements (without as much edit-protected control). In a sense, for the Swiss flag-icon alignment, then the alternative template was Template:CHE, which had icon height x17px over 4 years ago, when {flag|Switzerland} was stuck in a set of 5 templates which needed to be updated together to reduce the x20px height. So, the general tactic should be formalized to have alternative, "lifeboat" templates (tools) which can provide for rapid fixes, or improvements, without the tedious approval cycles of the big templates used in thousands (or millions) of pages. In this vein, I really think there should be a separate edit-interface for the MSIE browsers which have locked-up after years of incompatible edit-screen changes. I guess the now-deleted skin "Nostalgia" might have been part of that alternative interface for the MSIE browsers, but again, there should be more alternatives to emphasize workarounds in each area of frustration. -Wikid77 00:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps the term "alternative templates" would work: I am still thinking of a suitable term to describe other templates (tools) to be used when the edit-protected templates cannot be updated to improve operations. So perhaps a good term would be "alternative templates". Numerous people have complained about the protected pages, saying, "This is not a wiki" but the danger from hack-edits must be averted by protections, where we have seen many editors hack unprotected templates which took days, or weeks or months to fix, such as a template hacked on New Years Day in 2012. So, the semi-protected, alternative templates (with new features) could be used in several articles, without the need for full-protection as admin-only editing. -Wikid77 23:41/15:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Some templates/tools trapped as internal bottlenecks: However, upon rethinking the use of "alternative templates (tools)" there is a limit when the item which needs to be improved is an internal template, called by name from outer templates. In that case, then the names of the internal templates could be parameter values, passed inside, which could name the alternative templates to be used, as internal steps, instead. A prime example, of stagnant internal technology for 3 years, was Template:BS-overlap in the road/river or train-route maps (wp:RDT), used as an internal map-formatter routine, which could have been bypassed 3 years ago but did not get upgraded until 28 April 2013, to format route-map segments as several times (10-30 seconds?) faster, in many articles which have large route-maps. -Wikid77 05:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Florida's 9th district

Perhaps someone can help me call this problem to the attention of the right group of interested people. This map is significantly different from what we have at Florida's 9th congressional district and is pointed to by the State of Florida website. Additionally, the representative for the 9th district, Alan Grayson, lives in Orlando, suggesting the official map is correct and ours is wrong.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:27, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The one from flsenate.gov appears to be a plan for re-districting from 2012. Not a map of the actual districts at that time. The one we have appears to be a 'this is how the districts are' map at the time it was used. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:34, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Map from prior to 2012 courtesy of the Fish & Wildlife service appears to show it in the same place as us. Senate plan for redistricting dated Jan 2012 shows as complete. So as far as I am aware 9 should now be in the middle and ours is out of date. Which probably means all our Florida congressional district maps are out of date. Although since the FWS are too, cant really blame us ;) Although the article itself has been updated with the info that the congressman has changed due to redistricting, but no one changed the pic. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Now 27 congressional districts in 6(?) maps: That official flsenate.gov/Session/Redistricting document notes the plan as completed on January 25, 2012 (last year), with Florida having 27 congressional districts (expanded from 25). The document also lists 6 PDF maps which seem to cover all 27 districts:

• Northwest: H000C9047_map_nw.pdf
• Big Bend:        H000C9047_map_bb.pdf
• Southwest:    H000C9047_map_sw.pdf
• Northeast:    H000C9047_map_ne.pdf
• East central: H000C9047_map_ec.pdf
• Southeast:    H000C9047_map_se.pdf

Those maps should provide a sanity check for each of the 27 districts, as with number 9, "Florida's 9th congressional district" or "Florida's 15th..." etc. Then check back in a few days to see if maps were revised in June 2013. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

• Began updating maps for renumbered districts: It took me a while to get over the shock of the new locations of the 10th, 12th and 9th district (moved from the west half to east half of the Florida peninsula), but I finally wrote a description of the new 9th congressional district, as located from Orlando down around Osceola County. I re-captioned the old map as the "Former 9th district" and created an interim map box to show the new 9th district, until public-domain maps can be uploaded. There has been talk that the Florida state-government maps are "public domain" (PD), but we had trouble with claims that Italian police crime-scene photos are PD when I think "fair-use" is more accurate, and so the Florida state-govt maps might need to avoid Commons and be kept on WP as fair-use images. Meanwhile, I will put interim maps in articles where boundaries shifted the most:

• Florida's 9th congressional district - cities were ok but added interim map & noted counties
• Florida's 25th congressional district - adding an interim map for raised location
• Florida's 26th congressional district - adding an interim map as new district
• Florida's 27th congressional district - adding interim map as new

Jimbo, I am glad you spotted the problems because it might have been years before the maps were adequately updated, to note the massive relocations of some of Florida's congressional districts, while the U.S. NationalAtlas maps are still outdated. What a nightmare. -Wikid77 01:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

There are some coding tasks that would help make things easier. First, we should have a map "reprojector" which lets you mark the location of a half dozen coordinates on any Wikipedia map and then gives you back a version that is reprocessed to whatever coordinate system you prefer. Next (or combined with this) we should have a map reader that takes data like those Florida maps, automatically recognizes the big colored areas, and turns them into SVG profiles according to their latitude/longitude (as transformed for the desired system). I've made a crude start at the third step with Module:MapClip which can zoom in on a piece of a large set of maps. Fourth, by overlaying multiple images with transparency (or computer generating divs directly from the SVG coordinates using Lua) it should be possible to rework arbitrary road map + congressional districts coordinate data into decent maps of the congressional districts. Hopefully the latitude and longitude coordinates of the congressional district boundaries are not copyrighted, even though there are few artistic works that involve more creativity and scheming in their creation! Wnt (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Using "concept diagrams" of congressional districts: To avoid any copyright issues, although rare, I am merely highlighting the boundaries of whole Florida counties in those districts and then displaying reddish square boxes, superimposed live, on adjacent areas in each district. Because squares are non-copyrighted "shapes" then showing the district boundaries, as rough shapes, is fine until we get U.S. Govt maps as public-domain images. -Wikid77 22:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Florida district articles were accurate but labels misleading: As would be expected after the U.S. national elections in 2012, the contents of the Wikipedia articles for the 27 congressional districts of Florida were accurate, in descriptions, but the map captions gave the misleading impression of being outdated, by saying "District of 2003 to 2013" which seems to mean "2013" as being current maps for this year. Instead, I have been rewording the captions as, "Former district 2003–2012" to omit 2013 and avoid confusion about 2013 being the current date of the maps. Ironically, those district maps had been added on "28 December 2012" just 4 days before they all became obsolete for 2013, despite no maps in those articles during the past 10 years when the maps would be showing the current boundaries. All around, it was a "series of unfortunate events" to put maps in those 27 district articles, with misleading labels, just 4 days before the maps became obsolete, after 10 years with no maps when they would have been appropriate. Anyway, the basic content of the articles has been accurate, and "all is well" (or getting better) in the world of Wikipedia pages about Florida districts. -Wikid77 (talk) 22:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Created color-square images to highlight map areas: An unexpecting side-effect of trying to provide current maps, for the 27 congressional districts of Florida, has been the creation of standard "color squares" to overlay and indicate areas on the district maps. Despite 10 years of map images, there were no obvious "red-square" or "white-square" images to overlay onto maps (but hundreds of special variations). Hence, I have created obvious name "File:Red_square.gif" (for "") on Commons, to work with any browser, while wondering why no one ever created "File:Red_square.svg" or "File:Red_square.png" as other obvious image-names to display a red square. I think other people have likely created some complex mapping techniques which require special knowledge to navigate, such as the train-route diagrams (wp:RDT). Anyway, those simple blue-square (etc.) images can be overlayed to highlight parts of maps, as when the official map might not be a public-domain image yet. -Wikid77 (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

The former 23rd district, in 2003 to 2012, covered a major part of Broward County and parts of Palm Beach County. ←(This is an example of the recaption with "former...2012" in each article.)

• Discovered Firefox map alignment differs from edit-preview when saved: As if there weren't enough MediaWiki user-interface problems, how I have discovered the map div-sections (this week) shift up/down after being edit-saved for Firefox browsers, as noticed when I was working on creating rough district maps for Florida's 27 congressional districts. After all the other, chaotic user-interface nightmares, then I don't mind shifting some map markers up/down to anticipate different alignments after being edit-saved, as being 2-pixel height lower when seen in edit-preview of map alignments. However, it makes me wonder just how much user-interface mush could new users tolerate before being driven away. I am really seeing strong evidence of why computer managers have warned for decades: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"  because computer systems tend to always be more complicated than the available manpower at hand, needed to correct the hideous problems caused by rampant changes to computer software. It takes many days with many people to verify all operations after major changes are made. Firefox browsers showing a shifted alignment between edit-preview and edit-save of map div-sections is a clear example of how bad it can get. -Wikid77 00:44, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• Recaptioned old maps "former...2012" but few new maps: I just changed most of the district articles to recaption the old map as "former nth district, in 2003 to 2012" because I was distracting by fighting the misalignment bug in Firefox browser where the new map div-sections edit-preview as 2-pixel higher than edit-save. Fortunately, the bug only appeared in Firefox, while tests with MSIE show the map's div-section alignment is the same for both edit-preview & edit-save. If preview alignment cannot be fixed, then I'll write another error-essay to explain the 2-pixel higher edit-preview in Firefox, such as with essay "wp:98% table width anomaly". -Wikid77 23:41/15:55, 25 June, 05:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps user-preference to merge edit-conflicts

At this point, I think it would be necessary to have an option in Special:Preferences to retain current edit-conflicts, because of some people claiming edit-conflicts are essential to "progress" among editors:

• At least 3 developers have insisted that adjacent-line edits should not be merged.
• One developer claimed that the risk of 2 editors both prepending the same duplicate tag-box should be halted by edit-conflict in non-duplicate cases.
• Other editors have noted they like edit-conflicts for a chance to re-read the discussion, and re-think the reply.

With a sizeable number of editors wanting to be blocked from editing, by erstwhile changes made by other editors, then I feel the auto-merging of potential edit-conflicts should be an option which some editors can refuse, by clicking "keep edit-conflicts". Typically, the exact opposite is the case: most people do not want to seek "pre-approval" to add text, and either do not care if someone stated their same opinion(s) or feel that "many voices" might be a good thing, to repeat the similar replies.

The groundswell of people happy with edit-conflicts is another benefit of discussing the possibilities of auto-merging adjacent edits, because I would have never guessed how so many people like having their edits quickly rejected (or so they claim). But also, perhaps after a while, more editors might switch to no (about "keep edit-conflicts"), as part of a long-term evolution about easier ways to handle numerous replies to a discussion, or numerous changes to adjacent lines in a page. For new users, I would guess most would prefer to auto-merge multiple replies, and then they could re-edit to reword/remove replies that seemed out-of-sync with nearby replies. The most important point is to keep discussing the auto-merging of edit-conflicts and to fully explore how to gain consensus for faster discussions or frequent updates to busy pages. -Wikid77 (talk) 16:34, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm totally clueless about what you are trying to propose here? Could you perhaps include some context, and also perhaps some links to the postulates above. _→AzaToth 11:59, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for slow response, but see context, below, about VisualEditor and edit-conflicts. -Wikid77 15:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

If you'll accept something personal, you're good with Javascript, aren't you? It should be quite possible to add a "Resolve" button right at the top of the edit conflict page, and/or a tool that scans recent historical revisions of an article for improper edit conflict resolutions (i.e. edits that take one thing out and add another a long way away from it). Wnt (talk) 21:49, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• WMF forcing VisualEditor on new users but edit-conflicts fatal: For those unaware of the background about the looming nightmare, the plan is to mandate the VisualEditor for all new users, as hoping the WYSIWYG point-and-click edits are easier for them, but then ignoring the potential danger of edit-conflicts (which could be easily auto-merged), and instead waiting until the new user points-and-clicks their entire changes to the page, and then get this: upon the slightest erstwhile change to the prior revision, instead of auto-merging non-competing changes to different sections, the whole VisualEditor session aborts as "Edit-conflict!" but pretends to invite the user to a "manual edit-conflict" wp:copy/paste fixit screen of their keystroke updates, but instead (surprise!), their entire VisualEditor page is reduced to one word "undefined" and totally loses all the keystrokes from their tedious (slow) point-and-click (and scroll line-by-line), clicking here or there to change the text, all of which will be lost upon the slightest one-word change to the prior revision of the page. Meanwhile, I have discovered that most (95%-98%) of edit-conflicts could be auto-merged by "10-minute changes" to the old diff3.c version-merge utility currently used to combine sections edited by different people, but limited to one-unchanged line separating each person's edits. For example, the one-line separation could be reduced to a "zero-line separation" between changed lines (allow adjacent changes), and multiple insertions (additional list entries or talk-page replies) could be combined, to auto-merge the edit-conflict, as stacking both editors additional lines/replies in LIFO ("last-in, first-out") order, so that even a new "==Topic==" insertion (by a prior editor) would not affect the next editor who replies at the same old line in a page (above any new section(s) created by a prior editor). At the top of a page, each person who prepends a top-of-file tagbox would have their lines always inserted at the new top of the page, above any other additional lines prepended by a prior editor just minutes before the next editor does edit-save of changes. In fact, there is never a technical reason to have any "edit-conflict" (yes, because all lines could be auto-combined in some forced manner), but the auto-merging could be auto-halted when numerous lines differ from the other editor's version, as a potential danger of merging erstwhile vandalism or even a copy/paste into the wrong page as cause for so many differing lines. As a computer scientist, I anticipated the edit-conflicts would be fixed years ago (as easy to fix), but as years lapsed with no progress about edit-conflicts, then I suspected, "It must be the developer chow" where potential fixes were purposely rejected by developers, and that has been confirmed as part of the delay. Anyway, those aspects explain some background about auto-merging edit-conflicts, as to how easily it could be done (for most cases), and why changes should be auto-merged to avoid horrifying new users who would learn their entire tedious point-and-click VisualEditor session was a total waste of their time. Plus, long-term, it is exciting to see how almost all edit-conflicts could be merged, even allowing people to change 2 phrases on the same line, during conflicting edits, but have those phrases combined in the saved revision. Some technology even allows a prior editor to move multiple paragraphs in a page, and then the next editor's changes would auto-move to be inserted into those new locations ("weave merge"); however, that would likely be a special warning to the user, and perhaps enter edit-preview (for review of the auto-merge), if several sections had been moved. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:55, 25 June, 05:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

This isn't even "silly season" yet ...

Mike Gatto has a quite laudatory BLP - with a couple or three items which look rather like a campaign brochure (i.e. of no major importance, puffy, etc.). At what point will folks accept that Wikipedia is not a proper campaign site? Collect (talk) 21:25, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

That's obviously an automatic Keep at AfD (elected member of a state legislature), so the solution is to just fix it, if the POV offends thee... And WP will be used as a campaign tool forever and ever, a-men, in answer to your query. Huge traffic + no cost = gold. Carrite (talk) 04:29, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

BTW, this is a good example of why I think all candidates for office of this level should clear the notability bar automatically. Otherwise, WP is inherently biased in favor of incumbents. It is an unfair situation. Carrite (talk) 04:31, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Your suggestion is that ALL members of state legislatures are notable? That seems a tad hard to swallow. Good luck arguing that at Wikipedia:Notability_(people). NickCT (talk) 14:28, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#Politicians already says that all members of state legislatures are notable. Mark Arsten (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see how removing what law firm he first worked for is supposed to improve his biography; nor removing which bills he proposed. Removing content from articles purely for the sake of doing so (or to reduce their potential usefulness in the campaign) really is vandalism, plain and simple. If you want to push the opposing POV the valid way to do that is to search up some sources that strike some sour notes and add them, not take out whatever you feel like based on a claim it is "not important" (to you, that is). I should note that for a politician there will always be sources that strike sour notes, so an article this sweet-and-light probably does need some of that kind of work. Wnt (talk) 19:56, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

"Gatto’s 2012 legislative program included bills: to keep utility rates low by allowing utilities to use biofuel; to crack down on lobbyists who improperly try to influence tax assessors; to make sporting events safer by preventing fan violence at stadiums; and measures to make it more difficult to write spending programs into the California Constitution." Minutiae which would look excellent on an election pamphlet, referenced to a primary source and no indication of the importance of the legislation (or what passed into law). --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:25, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:BLP requires a reliable, published source. Note lack of words like "secondary". Especially when the only "challenge" is based on the material being uninteresting. An indication of the importance is desirable - full legislative history is desirable - how is that supposed to get in the article if you don't leave what it has in it? It's not like it's that hard to find some of this for California Homemade Food Act, which was wikilinked all along. I feel like the people doing these deletions picture themselves as the one working in the nice glassed-in office with the big desk looking out over a sea of poor schmucks with typewriters who ought to be grateful they were given a job, who should come back with however many drafts it takes to satisfy the editor-in-chief's point of view. Well, you're not the editor in chief, and these people don't come back with their drafts, they leave, they do free work on other web sites that show more appreciation for their contributions. Wnt (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Really? What (non-partisan) websites are those? Wikipedia's job is not to copy a politician's "full legislative history" into their bio - that is not desirable. It's to figure out what's important, again not by looking at primary sources, but bylooking for secondary sources. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:09, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Of course our job is to copy full legislative history! If somebody does something in their life that is reported by the reliable sources, we should cover it. In the event that the legislative history became so big the rest of the article was lost in it, we should spin it off into a more specialized article. This is especially true when it comes to proposing bills, which is simultaneously notable, objective, important, yet profoundly personal and revealing of philosophy and character. Wnt (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Wnt is completely right and I'm not sure where Calibri gets this idea that secondary sources are the only place to look (wait... I do know, and it's a shame). We don't pick and choose what's important, that's why we use sources, we write what they say, if it wasn't important it wouldn't be in a source. Notability regards the subject, not the facts. If something bores you, don't worry about the article and work on something that grabs your attention. Not every subject has to be about things that grab you.Camelbinky (talk) 02:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Calibri? Are you referring to me? Gatto has authored 61 bills. Are we going to toss out WP:INDISCRIMINATE so we can include the important yet profoundly personal "...request that the Department of Transportation erect informational signs on State Highway Route 5 in the County of Los Angeles directing motorists to the Armenian Cathedral Complex"? Are we going to toss out WP:PRIMARY too, and let politicians dictate how important and notable all their work is? --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see that in the old version, so I assume this is hypothetical. Nonetheless, I answer hypotheticals, so here it is: Wikipedia cannot copy the entire world; it summarizes it. That means that if an editor finds an article about a bill to erect informational signs, it is valid to include a sentence about it. (Subject to possible splitting to a sub article per WP:Summary style) The existence of a source about it to cite and an editor interested to cite it is enough to mean it is worth mentioning. However, if what you can find about this bill is only an item within a computerized listing of his bills from the state assembly that lists 61 items, and that is one of the items, then it is more appropriate to summarize what the whole list was about rather than to detail each item however minor. Wnt (talk) 03:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Not exactly a hypothetical as you said our job is to "copy full legislative history" and that was one of his bills (source [1]). And it's hard to summarize the whole list given its disparate nature. I'm saying we should include items only if they have non-trivial coverage in independent secondary sources. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I love how editors through out WP:PRIMARY as if it says somewhere on it "Never use primary sources". In fact that section is probably written too far in restriction of primary sources than they are actually used or accepted at the RS/N. It isn't technically "wrong" as it does state that primary sources are allowed, you just cant make inferences or original research based off them. But of course those same restrictions apply to any source. It just may be easier to fall down an honest hole into inferring from a primary. But there is no distinction between primary and secondary, secondary sources are simply preferred if there is both a secondary and a primary.Camelbinky (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

And I love how you mischaracterize my position. Use primary sources to get a list of bills. Don't use primary sources, especially a politician's website, to say what impact or importance a bill has. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Once the contributions of the obvious conflict-of-interest account Ctrconstgovt are removed, the article looks fine. Tarc (talk) 20:05, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Snowden editing?

I'm sure this has been discussed somewhere. In the media there have been reports of user accounts used on various tech discussion sites by Edward Snowden. He was apparently quite an active person online, particularly a few years back when he was younger. It seems highly likely to me that he would have edited Wikipedia - most people who fit his profile (tech savvy, internet activist types) will have done so. Do we have any evidence of that, or suspicions about that?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Do we know what usernames he used on other websites? I expect they might have the same name as a possible account on Wikipedia. However, I'm curious as to why we need to know? — Richard BB 08:09, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we 'need' to know. I'm just curious, and I imagine many other people would be as well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Why do we care? This violates our outing policy, so please desist from attempting to connect Snowden to some Wikipedia account. Being "just curious" is no reason to out somebody. Reaper Eternal (talk) 10:29, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

This is the relevant statement published in Slate: 'Snowden's comments on the tech website were discovered by Anthony DeRosa after Reuters reported that the now-famous leaker had previously used the online handle "The True HOOHA" on an anime site. From there, it wasn't exactly a leap to his Ars username of "TheTrueHOOHA."' Slate Ars Technica, Independent, UK, and New York Times also cover the known facts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any account on Wikipedia named either TheTrueHOOHA (talk · contribs) or The True HOOHA (talk · contribs), so I think that's probably not the case. — Richard BB 09:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

That's my impression as well. I was mostly wondering, as per the original inquiry, whether this has been discussed extensively somewhere.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• An ANI involving this conversation and a "high profile admin"(Jimbo Wales) has been started at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Attempted_outing_of_Edward_Snowden Dream Focus 10:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I may be in the minority opinion here but as long as he hasn't violated any of our rules or policies I don't really care if he does edit. I also think its likely that he has done so but I don't think its really relevant. Kumioko (talk) 10:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow. Didn't take long for that one to explode into a big ol' ball of drama. Checking some of Snowden's aliases, I found one account that I'm curious about. Probably not him, and I guess I can't name it anyway. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 10:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Don't be intimidated - that drama isn't about Snowden, it's about drama for the sake of drama. If you aren't sure it would be appropriate to make it public, please do feel free to email me so that I can assess it. It seems likely that this is of interest to reporters as well, and so I think it is important that we be prepared with a full understanding of the facts. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

My concern is that your original post appears to be an invitation to ask people to post here information that risks Snowden's outing. That could have been a slip of the keyboard, but then your response when the outing issue was directly raised seems to suggest that it was intentional and you do not care if your question encouraged people to post such information. Do you think it is acceptable for people to speculate or provide evidence here of Snowden's WP identity? If you do, why isn't that outing? If you don't, why did you take the risk? DeCausa (talk) 11:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not 'outing' when the user ids in question are already published widely in the media in reliable sources. I looked for a couple of variant spellings and found nothing, so I asked to see if others could find anything. I think it is not only acceptable but highly desirable for people to openly discuss such matters. If someone discovers or knows something that they feel would be inappropriate to post publicly, then they should send it to me privately.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

We at the NSA applaud our friend Mr. Wales's ingenious suggestion for Wikipedia users to "email" him "privately" with information on our friend Mr. Snowden. We hereby reassure Wikipedia users that we shall of course fully respect the privacy of the emails, in accordance with long-established NSA practice. Writegeist (talk) 16:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Execept "Do we have any evidence of that, or suspicions about that?" (my emphasis) doesn't really convey that. I didn't read your post as saying has anyone in the media identified Snowden's account, if so what did it say. If that's what you're saying (as opposed to "let's do our own digging"), then I have no problem DeCausa (talk) 11:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the need for drama, but your comments could be seen as a call to action to out him, Jimmy. You are aware of how literal some will take your comments. Journalists are free to do what we aren't supposed to do as Wikipedians. Clearing that up might make some of the drama go away. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 11:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I strongly encourage people to engage in an open discussion of publicly available information relating to this issue. I strongly discourage anyone from engaging in outing. Those who would seek to block even a conversation about this are mistaken. Wikipedia must always thrive on open and honest discussion and transparency.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Another website said that in addition to "The True Hooha" that he also used "Phish".--v/r - TP 12:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Reliable sources aren't infallible. My concern is that one typo and one enthusiastic editor can create a lot of pain for an innocent party here. The potential for harm shouldn't be underestimated. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 13:04, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree. That's another good reason why we should have all the facts subject to careful scrutiny.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, and I don't really understand what is to be achieved by all this, other than "isn't that interesting". If someone discovers that User:xyz is Snowden then what? Look to see if he's dropped some revelatory WP:OR into an article! It doesn't feel like what we're here for. DeCausa (talk) 13:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

oops, User:xyz exists. Just to be clear that was meant to be random and no claim that that user is Snowden DeCausa (talk) 13:23, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, you send mixed messages when you encourage us to out a Wikipedia editor just because he's in the news. I think it would be more appropriate for you to start this type of discussion at Wikipediocracy. That's one of the reasons that site exists, to discuss WP in a place where you don't have to worry about coming into conflict with WP's bizarre policies and the arbitrary administrative actions that half-heartedly enforce those policies. Cla68 (talk) 13:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't think I'm sending any mixed message at all. To the extent that Wikipedia has "bizarre" policies, we should discuss them here - openly - and change them here. How would you propose changing policy in this instance?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

For starters, how about a BLP policy that prevents this sort of thing from appearing in a hugely viewed BLP -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 13:46, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

What specific change do you suggest? I mean, such an edit is already against BLP policy, so what tweak or modification to policy do you think might best prevent it. I strongly support (as do many people) liberal semi-protection of BLPs of controversial people, particularly at a time when they are actively in the news. Are you thinking that we should strengthen the language around that? Seems reasonable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

@Jimbo Wales:I strongly agree that articles like Snowden's should be semi-protected. The fact that it's not currently is baffling. I've encountered various instances in the past where admins have refused to semi-protect an article "pre-emptively". In an instance such as this, I think pre-emptive semi-protection is essential; would you not agree? — Richard BB 15:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I've just semi-protected it for a month, so hopefully there will be less of that for a while. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:16, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not really seeing the purpose of connecting Snowden to a Wikipedia account. You've taken "fight the man" stance on SOPA and related issues in the past, so even if you did uncover an account here used by him, wouldn't you want that fact kept from Big Government? Tarc (talk) 13:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't see the logic in that at all. I'm not talking about outing - I'm talking about a public discussion of public facts.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
    • (e/c)I don't think it is wise to invite something like this for discussion on such a widely tracked page. Outing can occur even if not intended. If we make a mistake, that person might be forced to out himself to prove he is NOT Snowden and that is not acceptable. Part of what I truly admired about Wikipedia's coverage of Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev, was that the community actively prevented and ignored discussion about identities both IRL and digital until definitively proven. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:57, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
    • People around here have gotten blocked or banned for mentioning/linking to "public discussion of public facts" when they exposed the real name of a Wikipedia editor, so there is some hypocrisy in seeking it here. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:14, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
  • In the context of Wikipedia Snowden is also an innocent party. The request to dig up Snowden's identity, (clear call for outing as far as I can understand) and the subsequent clarification is unfortunate. Talk pages too have a purpose: "To discuss how to build a better encyclopaedia", I don't see how this discussion meets that criterion. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
    • I personally think in general Snowden is an "innocent party" - a hero, in fact. Discussion of questions surrounding identity, famous people in the news, editing of Wikipedia, and so on are all well within the scope of discussions about how to improve the encyclopedia. One of the important roles that we play in the world is to encourage and emphasize openness, honesty, and transparency.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
      • What value would information such as: "Snowden is user:X", even when it is sourced from the most reliable sources have? Wouldn't we need Snowden himself (as declared in a reliable source) to associate with a particular account in order that we may use that information in his biography or elsewhere on this project. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 13:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
      • Not everyone shares your views of him and linking the wrong editor to him here can cause a lot of grief for that editor by those same people. If Snowden wants to link his real identity to his account here (as I have) then he can. Again, the potential for harm to innocent parties is palpable here. The fact that we may accidentally violate an editor's privacy if they really are Snowden exists as well. I don't think an extended discussion (or fishing expedition) on who is or isn't Snowden is the wisest course of action, particularly when the only benefit is seemingly to feed an intellectual curiosity. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | © | WER 13:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
      • Jimbo...I have checked the editing history of a dozen likely articles and nothing is popping out with red flags. Maybe he just used an IP to edit if he ever even did edit.--MONGO 13:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
        • Thanks. If anything turns up, please do let me know. Probably best to do so privately given the high emotions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

People, please try to keep /some/ level of sanity on what is probably on of the most 'public' places on Wikipedia, ok? Saying "Has this been discussed?" is so far from a request for 'outing' that even /trying/ to read that into it verges on the ridiculous.....it's far easier to read it as "Have there been any discussions of this that I should be aware of since that /might/ violate outing policies?" My 'reading' at least somewhat acknowledges what Jimbo actually wrote..... just because he's the 'founder' doesn't mean people can violate WP:AGF and WP:NPA by 'assuming' something that's a distant stretch... Please drop the 'accusational' BS and act like adults, ok? Revent (talk) 13:41, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Ravent, but I'm accustomed to it by now. It wouldn't be Wikipedia sometimes without the drama. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The CIA will by now know exactly which accounts and IP addresses have been used by Snowden. There are likely quite a few CIA informers active here, and they could be instructed to assist the CIA to help track down Snowden. E.g. by provoking him to edit the NSA can find out his present location. Count Iblis (talk) 14:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, given that he's in the company (according to news reports) of legal support from Wikileaks, I think that's unlikely at the present time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Does anyone else not think it's a bit absurd that this debate is still going on considering we don't even know if he's even edited Wikipedia? The fact that users have actually now started searching edit histories for various different articles in an attempt to track down someone who quite possibly never even edited this site is a bit ridiculous. — Richard BB 14:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Seems like an interest story more than a problem. Albacore (talk) 14:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Hum....Seems pretty unlikely that a techie would have not edited this website...a number of covert operatives like me might find such edits interesting...but I actually did some checking weeks ago and nothing overt popped up.--MONGO 14:18, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

That's worthwhile information. It's good to know that people have looked and haven't found anything obvious. Even that little bit is helpful to know.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Not everyone gets hooked on Wikipedia...so if I had to venture a guess I'd say yes he edited and probably only in passing and unregistered. Anymore than that such as possible username(s) will send you an email.--MONGO 15:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, I just forwarded you an email I got this morning. I'm not sure if it's related or not, or if it could turn into something that's related or not. FWIW - Dusti^*poke* 16:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I just want to say I'm a bit puzzled, Jimbo, on why you believe Mr. Snowden is a "hero". Now, as a minority I know that civil disobedience is necessary for the common good every once in awhile when a law is unjust, and that "I was following orders" is not a reason for allowing people to do despicable things and neither is it a reason to keep things secret.... but Mr. Snowden broke the law, he is not being framed or railroaded, he committed treason, allegedly. Now it would be one thing if he came forth, said I want a trial, I want to state my side in court, I want the people to know I am not ashamed. But he fled, he goes to countries and/or seeks asylum in countries not on the best terms with the US when it comes to extradition (Russia and Ecuador). To me, whatever you may thing of what he originally did, how he has carried himself since makes him a coward. I leave you with this thought- the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. never hid after breaking the Jim Crow segregation laws or marching on Selma. He stood up, he got arrested, he spent time in jail. Would he or Rosa Parks be revered if they fled and hid? No, they stood up, they worked against the system by using the system. Snowden is a coward, not a hero. Dr. King is a hero.Camelbinky (talk) 22:34, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see where Jimbo called Snowden a hero. Did I miss something? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:21, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

"I personally think in general Snowden is an "innocent party" - a hero, in fact." is what Jimbo said.Camelbinky (talk) 00:23, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I like that some people want to stand up to the NSA spying on us. But Snowden gave us the people a 41-slide Powerpoint presentation, through a media source that gave us a grand total of 4 slides. The Chinese government, on the other hand, have reported "drained" the contents of four laptops. [2] I mean, it's one thing begging for crumbs from the table but here we're scarcely even smelling the food. Somebody tell us how much insider trading goes on when people know everybody who is talking to anybody, what it means when they say "you talk, Sync listens", or precisely _how_ the Chinese drained those laptops, maybe I'll be in a better mood about it. Wnt (talk) 04:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, there had been talk in US news that he might reveal more secrets than "(self-)righteous whistleblowing" as a tech guy who was trouble-shooting (and copying?) various computer network nodes around those offices, and it reminds me of the issue, years ago about the stealth-propellers on submarines (to evade sonar detection), where the design specs were traded "sleeping with the enemy" and they learned how the stealth propellers sounded on sonar, plus learned how to machine similar propellers themselves. However, if it adds any comfort, when I was travelling in rural China, those people seemed the friendliest I had ever met, even to laugh with a Chinese army officer who was also "huffing and puffing" when climbing the entire rebuilt section of the Great Wall of China. But, I did wonder what did the Chinese gov't gain by giving Snowden safe passage at the risk of alienating the US arrest order and his revoked US passport status. I guess we could update some related articles on tactics of "Treason" and "Bribery" unless that would be aiding and abetting the enemy. At least to better explain a "loose cannon". -Wikid77 (talk) 05:37, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Possible explanation for question about Snowden editing

First, Jimbo was never suggesting that a pseudonym used by Snowden should be outed. Second, as Jimbo said, anyone who thinks that the Wikipedia policy on outing is "bizarre" can discuss why they think that, possibly on the talk page for the policy. Third, there is a perfectly good reason why Jimbo might be asking whether Snowden has been editing. The Wikimedia servers, as was mentioned in a different context, are not within the scope of British courts. They are within the scope of the US federal courts and the US Justice Department that are pursuing the case against Snowden. Wikimedia could be subject to a summons, subpoena, or other court order to provide information about whether Snowden was editing, either to obtain general background information to pursue the case, or (more seriously) to determine whether Snowden had saved secret information, either by posting secrets in article space, or by saving secret information in any other space. For those reasons, Jimbo should be asking whether Snowden has been edited, while abiding by Wikipedia policy as he is. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:20, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

If for instance he edited articles and put info in that was classified, it may have since been removed as "unsourced" since I assume he'd have no way to source his classified material... unless of course he did source it to a classified document. Either way if he posted classified information that was not to be shared with the general public of course the government has the right and need to know. Any contributions, if they can be traced to him, should be looked at by the government, and any attempt to destroy or hinder the government's ability to get the information would land that person (or organization) in contempt and prosecuted. I'm left-wing and even I don't think anyone should interfere or protect those that commit treason, or in any government's investigation. Anyone who calls themselves a liberal and thinks its ok to stimey the government and the government is "bad" is not a liberal (they'd be a hippie and a crackpot needing to look for the black helicopters).Camelbinky (talk) 00:30, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

So you think that the WMF/Jimbo should take proactive measures to assist the government in prosecution, even when not required to do so? That is an extreme stretch of the privacy policy. darkweasel94 (talk) 13:27, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

At least with respect to me, it is something that I would oppose - like secret mass surveillance, secret courts, etc. with every fiber of my being. There should be no illusions on the part of anyone that I would agree to any such thing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

We try and try and try since years to become more respected as Wikipedia/Wikimedia-Community "outside" our special world. Thanks to you, that we getting such a terrible press. You know, if you not would be "Jimmy Wales" - you already had been blocked here?! Rules also there for you, not only for us. Maybe you should start to think about it. Everything you build with your hands you try to destroy with your back, it seems. You are becoming more and more a ptobolem for the movement. If you don't stop taking this way, we have to talk about your position in our movement. And yes, I know - I'm banned from now on from your site, I know, you can't handle critics. Marcus Cyron (talk) 11:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Marcus, that's absurd. All I did was ask if there has been any discussion of publicly available information. I am opposed to outing. I am a big fan and supporter of Snowden.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:39, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, I found this discussion from that derstandard.at article as well. Its basic message is that Wikipedia is collaborating with the NSA and proactively trying to find Snowden's Wikipedia identity. I have to say I'm disappointed, since that is really not very far from the truth. darkweasel94 (talk) 13:27, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not collaborating with the NSA. I have said quite clearly that I am opposed to outing.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:39, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Well ok, if all you did was "ask if there has been any discussion of publicly available information", then that's ok - though this talk page section seems to be the only place where any discussion of Swanson having edited Wikipedia has come up. Problem is, people here took this to mean they should look for user accounts likely owned and pages likely edited by him, and that is the definition of outing. Anyway thanks for clarifying what kind of information you want. darkweasel94 (talk) 13:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

The standard.at article now leads to an article in Spiegel online ([3]) that has a much higher impact in Germany and the german-reading world - and this is really rerrible press. Without knowing the backgrounds it really seems that you are searching for Snowdens identity and to make it available (and I think I and others in the de-community will get confronted with this). I really do not know about the backgrounds of this discussion and the backgrounds of the conflict with FRAM but I really would like to read and cite an official statement by you to oppose these press articles and to clarify the situation. -- Achim Raschka (talk) 15:35, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

How does Wikipedia treat a 'hero' like Snowden?

Well, like this.. -- Hillbillyholiday ^talk 14:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I looked through the history on that page, and I don't see that vandalism. When did it happen, and was it just some random IP address, and was it reverted a few minutes after it was made by someone else? "Wikipedia" isn't a living sentient entity, nor did the majority of editors vote to say such things. Its just one random person. Dream Focus 14:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. And yet, I think we should acknowledge that it is problematic when someone is suddenly in the news and people with an agenda post things like that. If it is just for a few minutes, that's better than if it were a major concerted effort. But it's never a good thing anyway. Solutions are nontrivial.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protecting all BLPs seems like it would be trivial to implement and could be done by a bot. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:01, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be similar to having only land-owners vote? Wikipedia should be adding freedoms and not removing them. Btw, Mr. Wales your talk page is semi-protected again.--Canoe1967 (talk) 15:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It's only temporary and appeared to be in response to actual vandalism. In general, I think semi-protecting all BLPs is overkill, but being more liberal with semi-protection is a good idea. At the same time, I think that analogies like "having only land-owners vote" are too strong and overblown. All you have to do to edit a semi-protected BLP is be autoconfirmed - hardly a major barrier to participation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:13, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

All you have to do to vandalize a protected article is be auto confirmed as well. Semi protecting everything is never going to be the answer, though I am not surprised to see the usual overreactionaries are here pushing their agendas. Resolute 15:20, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protection is not an answer in itself, but it will go a long way to cutting down on the type of drive-by vandalism pointed out here. It is only one of a number of simple changes that have often been discussed as ways of mitigating this well-known and long-standing problem with WP. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:44, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo, if you think semi-protection is "overkill", I presume that it is because IPs would not be able to make edits. If that is the case, would you object to a mechanism that allows IPs to edit, but does not make their edits visible until they have been reviewed? Call it, oh, "flagged revisions" or "pending changes" - if such a thing were available, would you support turning it on for all BLPs? And if not, why not? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:41, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Pending changes is available. Has been for a few months. I have repeatedly put BLPs on PC. —Tom Morris (talk) 15:57, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Tom, can you do me a favour and turn on pending changes for Jonah Falcon? It is the BLP of a man known for the size of his penis. Not surprisingly, it is frequently vandalized. When you're done with that, would you mind turning on pending changes for every other living person? Thanks! Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

For Mr Falcon, it is done. The rest you'll have to take one-by-one to WP:RFPP... —Tom Morris (talk) 20:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

"Wikipedia" isn't a living sentient entity". perhaps it is, i.e. Wikipedia and all its editors together could generate a conscious entity that strives to keep itself into some "ideal state", perturbations like vandalism are then subjectively perceived as "pain" or other forms of discomfort by the system. Count Iblis (talk) 15:12, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Or set most major BLPs to have Pending-Changes review: A bot could also check the prior month's pageviews and tag major BLPs for review of proposed changes made by IP users or anyone. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:55, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism is most likely to be found and reverted on the most viewed BLPs. Vandalism on little-viewed BLPs can persist for much longer. Pending changes should be enabled on all BLPs. That would be a start. One possible next step would be sanctions for persistent or overt violations of WP:BLP. There are many ways to deal with the problem if one actually wants to deal with it. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 16:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Aligning text to the right: Is a political organization editing Wikipedia to suit its interests? (Haaretz, 17 June 2013)

Hi Jimmy and everybody else. I have wondered for some time, and with it making headlines in the Israeli daily Haaretz a few days ago (see article), I am outright curious – that's not an allusion, although I did read the Snowden discussion above – if the English Wikipedia does inform other Wikipedias about its findings and decisions if any in cases of "organizations engaged in tendentious editing," as Haaretz puts it, particularly regarding Israel-Palestine issues with cases like NGO Monitor and CAMERA, so that other Wikipedias which may also be targeted but are not aware of it can profit from the English Wikipedia's findings? The reason for my wondering is that, e.g. in the German Wikipedia, where I edit frequently, including Israel-Palestine related articles, I have never yet encountered even the slightest awareness of the problem, although it imo quite obviously should be considered. Cheers, Ajnem (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Your first sentence there is a bastard -- I had to read it five times before I could parse it. The answer is that there is no formal system for different-language Wikipedias to inform each other about anything. Looie496 (talk) 17:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

yes, I got quite stuck on the "everybody else" bit as well. And you're right - we're not even married. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:42, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia's troll in the news

FYI, Kevin Morris, "How Wikimedia Commons Became a Massive Amateur Porn Hub." This does indicate that Russavia directly commissioned the Wales portrait and that he paid by trading a Wikipedia biography for the portrait — something for which the artist would usually charge $200, I note. The portrait survived a deletion challenge at Commons, which should surprise no one... Carrite (talk) 15:57, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Money quote: "Making things even worse are a small group of porn aficionados and exhibitionists who use the Commons as their personal playground, turning the high-minded educational repository into the world's crappiest amateur porn hub." Carrite (talk) 16:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo is a public figure. It is quite ridiculous to compare him to some random young woman who is undoubtedly a private individual. Were that young woman to say, "please delete this image of me" then I would support deleting it, but Jimbo isn't some unknown young woman who got photographed flashing her breasts at Mardis Gras. Honestly, this is turning into the Streisand Effect. The article on Pricasso has gotten about 1,500 views, most of them on a single day, while the image has gotten several hundred more views due to all the rancor.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 16:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

So it's perfectly fine to commission such an image just to get back at another user, just because that user is Jimbo Wales? --Conti|✉ 16:57, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Who says it was to get back at him? Jimbo, being our Dear Leader and all, has many people who disagree with him and the idea that any of those people doing something with his image he doesn't like are "harassing" him out of some personal feud is really quite absurd. People will use Jimbo's image to make a point because he is the public face of Wikipedia, something he is more than happy to benefit from in his daily life. If Russavia was trolling or otherwise trying to be provocative, then he used Jimbo's image because he is Jimbo and not because of any personal grievance.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia has intentionally done this to annoy Jimbo, there's no other way to look at it. Russavia has been trolling, and when asked, Russavia has explicitly refused to answer even the simplest questions about all this. Now we know why. --Conti|✉ 17:27, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It is easy to imagine Jimbo not fully grasping what it means to be a public figure, and I guess it makes sense that editors here who freely interact with him have difficulty grasping what it means for him to be a public figure, but the reality is that he is a public figure. Even if something was done knowing it would annoy him, it does not mean it is personal or even really about him.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Is that even intended to make sense? AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite understand how being a public person means you can insult said public person in as many creative ways as you can think of on Wikipedia without having to fear any kind of repercussions. "He's a public person" has practically nothing to do with what happened here. --Conti|✉ 17:39, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

"The Devil's Advocate", while living up to his namesake, is woefully and rather pathetically naive in this instance. Tarc (talk) 17:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The bottom line is that we don't let people use Wikipedia to settle real-life grudges. That was the lesson of the Qworty and Little green rosetta fiascos, and it applies here. MastCell ^Talk 17:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia isn't even remotely comparable to them, and even then we don't just undo all of their contributions even if it was a contribution with an ulterior motive. We evaluate the contribution on its own merits as though it were made with only the best of intent.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia is clearly comparable in that he's used Wikipedia/Commons as a tool to settle a real-life score with someone. In terms of magnitude, yes, the other two were far worse, but none of their actions are acceptable. MastCell ^Talk 18:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it has everything to do with it. He is the public face of Wikipedia and anyone disagreeing with something on Wikipedia is liable to invoke his name or image when expressing that disagreement. Presuming Russavia was trying to make a point or be provocative, Jimbo's image was used in the same fashion one would use an image of the President to make a point about U.S. policy or an image of the Prime Minister or Queen to make a point about British policy. All that said, I consider the basis for creating the image distinct from its utility.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The difference is that nobody who makes a point about US politics usually happens to have been in a personal conflict with the president. About sexually explicit pictures. Before commissioning a sexually explicit video about the president. --Conti|✉ 18:02, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Saying Russavia was in a "personal conflict" with Jimbo is like saying someone who challenges Obama's policy at a speaking engagement was in a "personal conflict" with Obama.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo has told Russavia to be ashamed of himself at one point and has said other not so nice things about Russavia. Russavia, in turn, tends to treat Jimbo like a clueless newbie on Commons. How on earth is that not personal? And that's disregarding the fact that Jimbo and Russavia stand on opposite sides of the whole Commons-porn drama, and are both very vocal in their opinions on it. --Conti|✉ 19:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo has criticized a whole assortment of random editors, as Obama has criticized a whole assortment of random citizens, and Jimbo is kind of oblivious to how things actually work on the various Wikimedia sites.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I dare say that neither of those statements are correct. --Conti|✉ 20:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• When this first arose, analogies to these [in]famous "art" and "censorship" cases: [4], [5] came to mind, but here the issue seems to revolve around how and why it was created, rather than the artwork itself. Does anyone know of analogies from off-wikimedia where these were in issue? Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:00, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

With respect TDA, one would have to actively choose to be ignorant not to see that antagonism was one of the purposes behind Russavia's actions. He was quite successful in his trolling. Perhaps enough that the current block will become a de facto ban. Wonder if it was worth it? Resolute 19:03, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Agree with that, but this has already been discussed more than is useful and the header to this section is using a fairly loose definition of "in the news". Just for variety, someone please open a new section so we can move on to the next dead horse in the cycle. Formerip (talk) 19:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I think it is very easy for people here who lack perspective to believe that it is some personal vendetta and that, once people believe it, convincing them otherwise is very difficult. People often assume malicious motives where none exist or assume the motive is more malicious then it is in reality. My personal impression is that Russavia probably did it partly for the lulz, because the idea of doing something so edgy tickled him pink, but did actually think it was worthwhile to have a free image of the artwork. Is the lulz a great reason to contribute something here? No, but it is hardly the worst reason and doesn't take away from the second reason.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:19, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

O.k. if we are going to start giving our 'personal impressions' of what motivates other people to post things on Wikipedia, here's mine. I think The Devil's Advocate is trolling here, probably due to an exaggerated sense of his own self-importance. I also think he is making a fool of himself... AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:45, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

People like to throw around the term trolling on the Internet whenever someone raises an argument they don't like. It is rarely employed accurately and this is just another example of a reactionary use of the term.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:17, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

'Reactionary'? Are you sure you mean that? Are you accusing me of opposition to political and social change? Or have you just failed to use the term accurately? ;-) AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

The word's meaning is not limited to the definition you give.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 21:49, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

So which definition was intended? Do tell... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It's possible that he intended to say that you have been participating in some sort of process involving the re-arrangement of atomic bonds to create one or more chemical compounds or elements. Formerip (talk) 21:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

You see, what you two are doing is trolling. Compare and contrast.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 22:10, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, no, I'm making fun of you, for which I apologise. But, really, if you're going to get on your high horse about people using words correctly, the least you could do is double check you understand all the words in your own sentence. Formerip (talk) 22:57, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I used the word correctly, it is as simple as that. End of discussion.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

You just have a conflict about Commons at the wrong venue. Because it's the wrong venue the objective can't be reached, people get frustrated and you get an escalation of the conflict until something gives way, in this case that was Russavia getting banned. But that only released the pressure temporarily, the volcano will erupt again unless the problem is dealt with at the right venue. Count Iblis (talk) 19:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Isn't the reporter on this story the same one that Jimmy previously qualified as "not a real journalist?" Jimbo, do you still stand by that comment? Cla68 (talk) 22:36, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It does depend what is meant by "real", but he is quite plainly a blogger who regurgitates emails people send him. Formerip (talk) 22:54, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

He is not a blogger and the Daily Dot is not a blog. It is a niche news source, sure, but a news source nonetheless and Morris is a journalist no doubt. Plenty of reputable journalists make mistakes or don't get all the facts straight, as do plenty of other generally reliable authors. If you think he got some details wrong then you should point them out.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 23:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Well since we are onto a new topic, should Morris have not disclosed, if Jimmy Wales said that about him? It did seem odd that he did not say anything about contacting Jimmy for his story/blog, what have you. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:52, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

It's just that no-one told him to say that. Formerip (talk) 23:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Commons user here who does not contribute a lot to enwiki, but who has noticed that this seems to be the place where people feel is the right place to discuss Commons, and who therefore looks at it from time to time. Has anybody ever provided any evidence (≠ assumptions, conjectures) that russavia intended this as a provocation towards Jimbo, rather than as a simple illustration of Pricasso's painting style? To me, choosing Jimbo as a subject is just as reasonable as, when illustrating an article about web browsers, having Wikipedia open in the screenshot: it is simply a little self-reference, and I believe this is a textbook case of where AGF should be applied (in retrospect, it may well have been better to choose another subject). Note that I have not checked exactly what other things russavia did to get blocked here, and this isn't what I'm here for; this is a genuine question, and I am asking it here because the people who believe there is any bad faith here seem to be following this page. And, for all those who don't know yet, there is a discussion about the scope of Commons, and I invite everyone who thinks "Commons is broken™" to participate there. darkweasel94 (talk) 10:52, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Maybe we do need a page that summarizes all the events that led up to this somewhere. The short version is that Jimbo and Russavia clashed multiple times in the past, for the most part over the Commons-porn issue(s). Jimbo has said some not very nice things about Russavia, Russavia has been treating Jimbo like a clueless newbie over at Commons at every opportunity. So there was some bad blood between the two before the image was commissioned by Russavia, who knew that Jimbo doesn't like the porn. It is very, very hard to imagine that Russavia did not know exactly how Jimbo would react to the image and video, once presented to him. --Conti|✉ 11:31, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Well I don't pretend to be able to read russavia's or Jimbo's minds. When I saw the video, to me it portrayed "somebody painting with his penis". Not "somebody rubbing his penis against a picture of Jimbo" or "somebody implying oral sex with Jimbo" or anything like that; the fact that the subject was Jimbo seemed only marginally relevant, just like in the article Internet Explorer it is only marginally relevant that the site the screenshot portrays is Wikipedia. I could now (perhaps if the uploader of that screenshot were a known critic of Wikipedia) say that this was certainly also done in bad faith: after all, using Wikipedia to portray a browser which many people would consider the worst browser of all could be read to be an attack on Wikipedia. But if I said that, you would laugh at me, and you would be right. This situation seems similar to me. darkweasel94 (talk) 11:49, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

See Template:Did you know nominations/Pricasso and WT:Did you know#Pricasso. The perfect troll—figuratively rub your opponent's nose in someone's "penis, scrotum and buttocks", and put a drama link on the main page. And the best part is that no one can every prove that trolling is trolling. Well, perhaps the best part is that people will argue over whether the trolling is trolling. Johnuniq (talk) 11:55, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Does it follow from the unverifiability of trolling accusations that in unclear cases one should assume that a certain action is trolling? I hope not. darkweasel94 (talk) 12:03, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

If you are in a dispute with someone, and anonymously commission a portrait of that person created with someone's penis and buttocks, then publicly post the portrait and a video of the creation, it isn't a stretch to see that as harassment. Certainly it would be grounds for instant dismissal in any workplace I've been in. Perhaps it wasn't intended as deliberate harassment, but certainly it was interpreted as harassment by Jimbo, as the subject of the image, and under the circumstances (an anonymous commission within the context of a dispute), you'd have to make a fairly strong case to say that it wasn't. - Bilby (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Russavia lost the right to AGF on this matter long ago. Resolute 14:38, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I take those answers to mean "no" - it seems to still be just assumptions and conjectures that have made some people (especially on enwiki) think it was deliberate harassment and done in bad faith. Thank you for the information. darkweasel94 (talk) 16:16, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I have yet to see an even moderately convincing explanation how all of these actions could have been taken in good faith. I mean, sure, if you just completely ignore the context, and then hypothetically change the context into something entirely different, then you can create a scenario where all this happened in good faith. That's what a lot of people here and on Commons do. But if you look at the actual context? If you look at Russavia's history (hello, Polandball), if you look at the Commons/enwp dispute, if you look at the Jimbo/Russavia dispute, if you look at Russavia's reaction to the whole drama, and his outright and explicit refusal to do anything against it.. then no, I do not see a way to assume good faith. I'd love to be convinced that there was no bad faith involved here, but I just cannot do the mental gymnastics. --Conti|✉ 16:50, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

My dear darkweasel, don't pretend that you entered into this conversation with an open mind, your first post describing yourself as primarily a Commons user let us know exactly where you stand and what your preconceived notions are. The Daily Dot article tells how a person who "never revealed his name" commissioned the painting for an article he was writing on Pricasso. The artist himself states ""I was surprised that someone would do an article on me." So here at Wikipedia, Russavia created the article, and Russavia adds the Wales image to the article. If you can't connect the dots there, then the deficiency lies with you, not wit the logic of anyone's argument here. Tarc (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikibreak

When you say "[...] essentially close this page", what do you exactly mean? Albacore (talk) 21:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

• Most likely means to just discuss elsewhere: So, notifications here about wp:ANI incidents should just focus comments at those ANI threads, or concerns about a particular user could be discussed at that user's User_talk:___ page (no longer debated here). Many of the issues I have mentioned would just remain inside the "walled garden" of the wp:Village_pump (limited to reading by those users who wade through all the other topics), such as at wp:TECHPUMP for technical topics, or wp:VPIL (Idea Lab) when people want to imagine ways to better protect BLP bio-pages. The benefit of posting here had been to collect some diverse opinions with Jimbo's perspective or viewpoints, at a cross-roads meeting, where few of us follow the daily talks at other pages, where Jimbo does not indicate priorities of concerns there, such as checking wp:ANI daily to see whose talk-page is linked as a trail of concerns about their recent actions. For a person being investigated, then that is probably the best tactic, to politely inquire at each user's talk-page about their activities, and each user could archive any excessive remarks which would usually be enshrined (for days) at an ANI discussion. Meanwhile, for others wondering about Jimbo's advice, then perhaps re-read the archived sections of User_talk:Jimbo* in /Archive_135, /Archive_134, or /Archive_119 (etc.) to review earlier discussions. There is so much to re-read, and reconsider, to fill the weeks while Jimbo is gone. -Wikid77 (talk) 05:10, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
• I haven't fully decided. At least on the day of, I plan to blank the page and ask people to post elsewhere. I will protect it (or ask others to do so) if policy permits (haven't studied that). I'm not comfortable just leaving it open if people are using it thinking that they are talking to me. I'd like to encourage people to move the usual philosophical discussions elsewhere for awhile, or just take a thinking break with me so we can come back with new ideas. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:16, 26 June 2013 (UTC)
  • Jimbo, I hope you will forgive those of us who come back from that thinking break with renewed vigour for getting people to accept the same old ideas that we've been pushing for, well, years. Speaking of which, why don't we turn on pending changes for all BLPs? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:31, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)Sorry if I bother here but, Jimbo is right. People post here thinking Jimbo it is watching all the time but the man has his own life (I think)... I also think his talk page is for matters that involves him and only him... But again, I am just a small person in this huge encyclopedia Ms.Bono^(zootalk)☆ 14:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)