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::::One diary does not replace, remove or eliminate the studies of many comfort women. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 03:51, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
::::One diary does not replace, remove or eliminate the studies of many comfort women. [[User:Binksternet|Binksternet]] ([[User talk:Binksternet|talk]]) 03:51, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

:{{od}} Is there a suggestion for a change to the article content based on info from this article and supported by citing it? [[User:Wtmitchell|Wtmitchell]] [[User talk:Wtmitchell|(talk)]] <small>(earlier ''Boracay Bill'')</small> 07:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Revision as of 07:32, 10 August 2013

Former good article nomineeComfort women was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 29, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed


Edit request on 3 May 2013

Please add reference to the following documentaries:

- animation documentary "Her story", here is a link to the youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phZQudarZP0

- Documentary called "50 years of silence", directed by Ned Lander, Carol Ruff and James Bradley


Thank you

Peksemi

Peksemi (talk) 16:04, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No thanks, unless you can show that this clearly, unequivocally meets WP:ELYES. Who was the filmmaker? What credentials do they have to make us believe their reporting is accurate--that those are, in fact, actual recorded voices of Comfort women, and that the translations are at all accurate? Who produced the film--is it an advocacy group, or a respected documentary producer? Also, does this video offer resources that are somehow better than other, more "normal" resources (texts, the actual recordings, etc.)? Finally, is the uploader of the film the copyright owner? Note that while the beginning questions can be a matter of debate, unless we are 100% certain that the uploader is the copyright owner, we cannot even consider linking to it per our policy on copyrights. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:30, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Her story has factual errors. The most fatal error is that she was raped by a Japanese officer at the age of 15 in Indonesia. According to the end of video, she was born in 1924, and it would be 1939 when she was 15. But it was December 1941 when the Japanese started their conquest of Southeast Asia. See Japanese occupation of Indonesia. There was no Japanese military post nor airbase in Indonesia in 1939. I think the video is unacceptable. Oda Mari (talk) 06:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: what is the scope of the comfort women article?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a very clear consensus here that the topic of this article is only about the Japanese comfort women system during WWII. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:06, 31 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should this comfort women article be only about the women used by the Japanese military during World War II, or should it include instances of military brothels, prostitution or military rape after World War II, performed by other nations' military forces? Binksternet (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

  • Only Japanese military during WWII. Too many nationalist Japanese editors have come to this page to deny the seriousness of the comfort women program, and they have used various stratagems. One tactic has been to point out that other countries have employed women to service their military, especially US military forces stationed in Korea and Japan directly after WWII. However, we have articles for those topics: Prostitution in South Korea, Korean prostitution for the U.S. military, and Recreation and Amusement Association (the latter about brothels in Japan). There is a big difference, though: the Japanese WWII comfort women were mostly unwilling, coerced, raped and even killed. The later programs were primarily about willing women, with far less brutality aimed at them.
    Other editors have come here because they want to tell the world how bad were the US military brothels in South Korea beginning in 1945, about how these brothels upset the traditional way of life, luring Korean girls away from their families and homes. Again, we have separate articles about that topic, which is primarily about willing women and far less brutality.
    It is true that the term "comfort women" has been used after WWII to describe a more willing form of such service, but this is because of the very notable previous example set up by the Japanese, involving primarily coerced women—tens of thousands of them. This article should have a clear focus: it should be about one program only. Near the end of the article we can describe what the legacy of the Japanese program is, how it is viewed by this and that group, what other programs arose in its place, etc. Binksternet (talk) 16:00, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, I agree. We should keep it focused on war crimes by Japanese military during WWII. According to nearly all sources, that was forced and therefore goes more along the lines of abduction, rape and human traffic (speaking in more modern language). My very best wishes (talk) 17:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only Japanese military during WWII I agree with the previous two comments. Wiki should have an article specifically about the women used by the Japanese military during WWII, and this is it. It should also have (and in fact has) other articles about the women used by other militaries in various wars. Waleswatcher (talk) 21:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Obviously this article is only about the Japanese military, but we should also be answering the question, "when were the Japanese camps closed?" If the answer is that the Allies did not close the camps but only took over their management, there is no reason to leave out that fact. Shii (tock) 22:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only Japanese military during WWII. This is an article with a topic in this scope. Anything else would be a clear attempt to downplay the topic's notability, because this topic can and does stand on its own. --Cold Season (talk) 00:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree- Comfort Women is a specific historical reference. Expand the title if the subject gets expanded. However, possibly include a small section on 'later usage', to indicate the depth to which it sank into conciousness such that it became a generic term. That will please the Japanese nationalists. Basket Feudalist 10:36, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is no credible reason to include a "later usage" section of a term, especially not to please "nationalists". This article is about a specific topic (here at en.wiki) and not about the general word. It does not belong here in this article instead of elsewhere where its relevant to its topic. --Cold Season (talk) 13:33, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • An analogy could be made with "Tearoom", which is a tea-drinking establishment. However, the term is also used as a supposedly gay slang term (later usage) for... Anyway, it is irrelevant for the former topic. As such, it is absent at that article, but it is available in its disambiguation page to link where it is relevant to the topic (where it should have been included). --Cold Season (talk) 14:04, 17 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only Japanese military during WWII. For all the reasons already laid out by others. --Yaush (talk) 00:50, 18 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I should add that links to other Wikipedia articles that make other usages of the term are perfectly appropriate.
  • Only Japanese military during WWII. If we look at what google gives us the usage of common women has been primarily about the women who were forced to prostitute themselves to the occupying Japanese forces. Although the term may be used infrequently to other women, I think WP:COMMONNAME & WP:SCOPE should be referred to, and thus why I support the focusing of the scope of this article to only during the World War II women forced to give "comfort" to Japanese forces. I am unaware of this term being used for those who prostituted themselves to German forces, American forces, or any other forces that I am aware of.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:55, 19 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing should be hidden - so Wikipedia should have a full series of article on instances of military brothels, prostitution or military rape after World War II, performed by other nations' military forces. Let's not indulge in any Japan-bashing. Copious "see-also" links should be placed in the Comfort women article so that our readers can see how common it was for other military forces, in the recent or distant past, are guilty of the same thing. But I wouldn't want the term comfort women turned into a generic phrase to hide what the Japanese did either. --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:14, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Let's indulge in any Japan-bashing." I often have difficulty telling if someone is being sarcastic, particularly in print. This comment seems sarcastic (I certainly hope so) and leaves me wondering which of your other comments are meant to be taken at face value. Please clarify. --Yaush (talk) 00:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am very sorry, because I should have read my own comment; if I had, I would have caught my typing error. I meant to say let's NOT indulge in Japan-bashing. --Uncle Ed (talk) 00:38, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Noted, but... What's your position on this matter, that is, the scope of this article? From your words, is it right to presume that your position is that this article is in the context of the Japanese as mentioned? --Cold Season (talk) 01:58, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Only Japanese military during WWII. Binksternet gives a good argument here. There are other articles dealing with similar practices by the militaries of other countries. These could be linked at the bottom of this article with a "See also" bullet list. GoodeOldeboy (talk) 03:49, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a disambiguation link to the top of the article:

For postwar prostitutes also called "comfort women", see Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.S. military.

This is because the official, legal term for a Korean military prostitute was "comfort woman" up until around 1990. Shii (tock) 08:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide evidence from reliable sources that they were regularly called that in English, or remove the note. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:18, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But the English term is just a translation of the Japanese and Korean. This is the opinion expressed by User:Yaush above. Shii (tock) 08:39, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Korean and Japanese terms are irrelevant to our readers' disambiguation needs. Disambiguation links are only needed if English-speaking readers are likely to expect the term to be used in that sense, in English. I see no reason why they would. The English term is pretty much exclusively used in the specific historical sense of this article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:50, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In line with what I said in Nothing should be hidden above, we should make clear to our readers the extent of both forced and voluntary prostitution. Similarly, we should avoid any pretense that it was only the Japanese military which employed prostitutes: we have a lengthy Prostitutes in South Korea for the U.S. military article about G.I.s paying women for sex. However, we do not use disambiguation links for editorial emphasis: it's just a quick way of letting the reader know whether he's reached the article he wanted. --Uncle Ed (talk) 12:33, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Edtorial decisions regarding this should be guided by WP:DUE, which is part of the WP:NPOV editorial policy. Quoting a snippet: "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 04:15, 24 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, all the viewpoints that are represented by reliable sources should be included. Absolutely. It seems to me that there are several editors on here that wish we could just have a good guy and a bad guy and keep it simple, regardless of what the reliable sources actually say.Markewilliams (talk) 02:47, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not averse to complexity when it is indicated, but I think the actual topic of this article should be very clearly stated, and not buried in counteraccusations or dismissive obfuscation. A clear voice should be given to the mainstream view, with minority views allowed a lesser role, in accordance with the references. This article should be very easy to understand, written in plain language. Binksternet (talk) 05:32, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit request

[Please add at bottom of Controversies section]

Tōru Hashimoto (Mayor of Osaka city and co-leader of the nationalist Japan Restoration Party) also expressed controversial views on the subject. See Tōru Hashimoto#Views on prostitution and "comfort women" for details.

This page is not semiprotected now. You can make this edit yourself. If the mayor is still alive read WP:BLP first. RudolfRed (talk) 03:37, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, yes Mifter just kindly downgraded to PC. I don't think BLP applies to this specific edit since it simply references stuff that already lives on the LP's page. Doing change now. 106.189.85.247 (talk) 04:18, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Reference to Tooru Hashimoto

Hello. I seek to introduce a link to Tōru Hashimoto, specifically the section about comfort women. My first attempt has been reverted with a comment mentioning a problem of style, but later the reverter specified that it was actually also a matter of contents.

I do not see why it would be contentious to give examples of politicians who have famously justified this practice, if their page already has a whole, well-referenced section about the controversy. 106.189.85.247 (talk) 08:01, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Besides, the sentence claimed as already including the information I added ("Some Japanese politicians have argued that the former comfort women's testimony is inconsistent and unreliable, making it invalid.") does not really apply to, or anyway cover, what Hashimoto has said about the subject matter. 106.189.85.247 (talk) 08:07, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

...and in fact Hashimoto is not even a signatory of the source that backs that sentence. Therefore, I am adding an explicit reference to Hashimoto. 106.189.85.247 (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"A majority of the women were from Korea, China, Japan and the Philippines"...

I'm neutral as to whether this is accurate or not, but the source cited doesn't mention Japanese comfort women. 182.249.241.6 (talk) 05:01, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Only a few Japanese women were recruited. Not a "majority" at all. Binksternet (talk) 05:24, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There are some indications that Japanese comfort women were more likely to already be prostitutes when brought into the system, rather than being brought in by deception or force, than non-Japanese comfort women. The Asian Women's Fund, for example, quotes documents suggesting that the police in Japan complained of deceptive or forcible recruitment of comfort women, and the Japanese Home Ministry responded with regulations requiring comfort women to already be prostitutes -- but this regulation was published only in Japan, not in Korea. (And I recognized that Asian Women's Fund is not an entirely disinterested party.) --Yaush (talk) 02:44, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Right. The few Japanese women involved in the program can be characterized as a group composed primarily of prostitutes, and some other non-prostitutes. Binksternet (talk) 03:00, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That most recent comment caught my eye. A glance back at prior comments gave me the impression that WP editors here were discussing here what might have happened, based upon I'm not sure what (WP:OR, possibly). I took a quick look at the article, and see that it currently uses the word majority twice in the article prose;
  • once in the lead, saying, "A majority of the women were from Korea, China, Japan and the Philippines,", citing this supporting source, which says, "During World War II, the Japanese established military brothels in countries they occupied. Women, many from occupied countries including Korea, China, and the Philippines, ...".
Clearly the "majority" assertion in the article here is not supported by the source cited, which says, "many" and which does not say, "the majority". Clearly, the mention here of Japan is not supported by the supporting source cited.
  • and once in the Country of origin section, saying, "According to State University of New York at Buffalo professor Yoshiko Nozaki and other sources, the majority of the women were from Korea and China.", with two Refs.
  • The first Ref cites Nozaki 2005, which says, "The majority of these women were Korean and Chinese (there were also some Japanese), but they included women from many other countries, including Thailand, Taiwan, Indonesia, East Timor, Malaya, and Holland." and also cites Dudden 2006, which says, "The largest number of women -- including girls as young as 12 years old -- were Korean, while many others were Chinese, Taiwanese, Filipino, Indonesian, and Dutch."
  • The second Ref quotes from other sources, as follows:
  • "An estimated 200,000 to 300,000 women across Asia, predominantly Korean and Chinese, are believed to have been forced to work as sex slaves in Japanese military brothels.", citing BBC 2000-12-08;
  • "Estimates of the number of comfort women range between 50,000 and 200,000. It is believed that most were Korean", citing Soh 2001;
  • "A majority of the 80,000 to 200,000 comfort women were from Korea, though others were recruited or recruited from China, the Philippines, Burma, and Indonesia. Some Japanese women who worked as prostitutes before the war also became comfort women.", citing Horn 1997;
  • "Approximately 80 percent of the sex slaves were Korean; [...]. By one approximation, 80 percent were between the ages of fourteen and eighteen.", citing Gamble & Watanabe 2004, p. 309 and Soh 2001, also cited above.
Whew!
Based on my reading of the above, I will change the (apparent mis-)use of the word "majority" in the lead to "many", which is what the source cited in support says, and I will remove the mention of Japan here, which is not supported by the supporting source cited. I'll leave the word "majority" in the Country of origin section unchanged, as the supporting sources cited there seem to support that. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:02, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The opening descriptions in Comfort Women is against Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy.

The opening description in Comfort Women is against Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. The argument in Comfort Women has got to "Sex Slave". Making no reference to another Comfort Women cases is a critical problem. The present descriptions become civil-rights violation to the present Japanese people and a act of racial discrimination to the present Japanese people. I would like you to request to edit as the following neutral descriptions .

"Comfort Women" is a generic term used to refer to women and girls forced into a prostitution corps at the front, the place of presence and the war exercise in World WarⅡ, Korea War, Vietnam War and the presence of UN Force. The first Comfort women was created by the Japanese Imperial Army in World War Ⅱ. At that time, many women and girls were estimated to force the prostitution. Estimates vary as to how many women were involved, with numbers ranging from as low as 20,000 from some Japanese scholars to as high as 410,000 from some Chinese scholars, but the exact numbers are still being researched and debated. Most of the comfort women in World WarⅡ were Japanese women, but there are many of the women from Korea, China, and the Philippines, although women from Burma, Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia and other Japanese-occupied territories were used for military "comfort stations". Stations were located in Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, then Malaya, Thailand, Burma, New Guinea, Hong Kong, Macau, and French Indochina."

Koo Richard (talk) 12:30, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no "racism" or "discrimination" in describing from reliable sources the actions of the Empire of Japan. Your incoherent proposed text conflates over half a century of history under two vastly different governmental systems, apparently to minimize the criminality of the scheme carried out under the Empire. Your version would be the NPOV violation, not the present one. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Diary written by Korean worker at comfort stations found

See "New evidence of Japan’s wartime sexual enslavement emerges".[1] Excerpts from the diary is available in Japanese.[2]

Korea Herald ignores all other descriptions written by the worker. The diary mostly focused on the women's savings and the office procedure of their return to home. The situation is quite similar to that written in the U.S. Interrogation report.[3] The stereotypes of the comfort women, abducted, enslaved and killed are far from this evidence.

Excerpt from the diary.

  • August 13, 1943 Comfort women went to see a movie saying that the railway corps will run a movie.
  • May 26, 1944 A woman called 李○梅 who moved from Kikusui Club to Timor last September visited us as she returned to Singapore.
  • July 4, 1944 Submitted a Request for Retirement for 許○祥 as she became seventh month of pregnancy.
    • September 5, 1944 Comfort women 許○祥 was hospitalized this evening and gave birth to a boy safely at 23:30.
  • August 31, 1944 Received a post card from 尹○重 who returned home this April saying she returned home safely.
  • October 25, 1944 A serving lady who worked for Daiichi Shiro Botan as a comfort woman married today. I was invited to the cerebration party with her acquaintance at Ryogoku restaurant tonight.
  • October 27, 1944 Remitted 600 yen for 金○先 from her savings by her request.
  • December 4, 1944 Went to the Shokin Bank and remitted the permitted 11,000 yen for 金○守.
Note. The monthly salary of a low-level civil servant at the time was 40 to 50 yen.[4] 11,000 yen corresponds to 20 year salary of a low-level civil servant.
―― Phoenix7777 (talk) 23:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
One diary does not replace, remove or eliminate the studies of many comfort women. Binksternet (talk) 03:51, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a suggestion for a change to the article content based on info from this article and supported by citing it? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 07:32, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Comfort_women&oldid=567918671"