Talk:The Holocaust

Motives

I apologise in advance if that question had already been discussed before (I briefly checked talk page archives, but found nothing), but why Nazism is not included as a motive? Actually, I intuitively understand that that is probably correct, but I am not 100% sure. Is it because under "motives" we mean some simple feelings that drive ordinary perpetrators, whereas Nazism is a more sophisticated category?--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:23, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, I came to create this topic before seeing yours. The nazi regime didn't enact the holocaust jusr because they didn't like Jews or others unlike them, it was part of a larger nazi ideology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 20:35, 21 April 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

This page does not include the North African Jewish community

While it is true that the death toll and many other parameters were larger in Europe.

Many people in Jewish communities in North Africa were sent to concentration camps, many were used for forced labourer, many of them starved , and many were killed/died. We most not forget them.

For further reading https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_outside_Europe_under_Axis_occupation https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Libya https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Tunisia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Algeria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Morocco

also in some middle eastern communities https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iraq

Please change the article to include the North African Jewish community and other Jewish communities. Colanderion1 (talk) 13:20, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

"The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum distinguishes between the Holocaust (the murder of six million Jews) and "the era of the Holocaust",

The definition section of this article says "The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum distinguishes between the Holocaust (the murder of six million Jews) and "the era of the Holocaust"" I read the USHMM Introduction and I don't see where it distinguishes between the Holocaust and the "era of the Holocaust". I don't see that term, "era of the Holocaust" anywhere in the Introduction. Also, the source cited for this statement lists a specific author, but when I went to that Introduction page, I don't see any specific author listed, only the USHMM. How can I get these things changed? I can edit, if allowed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Socialresearch (talk • contribs) 23:15, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

The phrase appears in an archived version of their page: "During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also persecuted other groups because of their perceived racial and biological inferiority." Writing from memory, Gray 2015 also uses the phrase or discusses the USHMM use of it. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:22, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

If it's no longer on their page, does it make sense to go on saying they make the distinction, in present tense? --causa sui (talk) 01:24, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I added Yad Vashem instead. The point is a simple one: Holocaust era (from 1933); Holocaust (1941–1945). SarahSV ^(talk) 01:50, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

In case it matters in future, the USHMM does use still use that expression: "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. ... During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted and killed other groups ..." (bold added). See USHMM. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:43, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm still not entirely clear. The second note, looks like "h", cites Gray, who offers three definitions of the "Holocaust", and two of these definitions indicate that it was the Holocaust that was from 1933 to 1945. In addition, the other citation, Yadvashem, doesn't actually say that there was a "Holocaust era" which differed from the Holocaust. On the other hand, the Vadyashem source implies that the Holocaust and the "Holocaust era" are the same thing. The Yadvashem source says "Because Nazi discrimination against the Jews began with Hitler's accession to power in January 1933, many historians consider this the start of the Holocaust era". That is, the Holocaust era began with discrimination against Jews, which culminated in mass murder. Socialresearch (talk) 22:42, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Another wikipedia page seems to make no distinction between the Holocaust and the "Holocaust era". "The Holocaust Era Asset Restitution Taskforce or Project HEART was a Holocaust restitution project that was created by a decision of the Israeli Government to locate Holocaust victims and their heirs and the property that was taken from them during the Holocaust" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_Era_Asset_Restitution_Taskforce

and another definition of the Holocaust actually lists the dates as 1933-1945. https://www.britannica.com/event/Holocaust

It seems likely that the more likely use of these terms is that the Holocaust was an event, and the Holocaust era was the time period in which the event occurred. Socialresearch (talk) 22:57, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I just edited my comments to make them all indented. I'm not quite an expert at wikipedia. Socialresearch (talk) 22:58, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not following your point, and Yad Vashem doesn't say that, unless I've misunderstood you. Most historians say the Holocaust began around August 1941; see this section. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:01, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Yad Vashem says "Because Nazi discrimination against the Jews began with Hitler's accession to power in January 1933, many historians consider this the start of the Holocaust era". They are saying, exactly, that the "Holocaust era" began with discrimination against Jews. What is it you are saying that Yad Vashim is not saying? And actually this Yad Vashim page specifically says "The Holocaust is an historic event which began in 1933 and ended in 1945" https://www.yadvashem.org/education/what-is.html Socialresearch (talk) 00:45, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

This page, from the Office of the Special Envoy for Holocaust Issues, makes it pretty clear that the Holocaust era is a time period 1933-1945, not an event. https://www.state.gov/key-topics-office-of-the-special-envoy-for-holocaust-issues/ Socialresearch (talk) 00:45, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

This John Jay College guide, "Guide for Library Research on The Holocaust" also gives the time period for the Holocaust as 1933-1945. https://guides.lib.jjay.cuny.edu/c.php?g=288386&p=1922582 Same for the Army War College page, which says "Between 1933 and 1945, the Nazi Party, led by Adolf Hitler, carried out the systematic persecution and murder of Europe’s Jews. This genocide is now known as the Holocaust." https://www.armywarcollege.edu/news/article/1762 This Rider University page, research guide to the Holocaust, says "The following details a list of key chronological events of the Holocaust, spanning from 1933 to 1945." https://guides.rider.edu/c.php?g=984640&p=7120908 This PBS timeline of America and the Holocaust covers 1933 to 1945 https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/holocaust-timeline/ This BBC page, the Holocaust year by year covers 1933 to 1946 https://www.bbc.co.uk/teach/the-holocaust-year-by-year/zkxwgwx This Holocaust historical overview page from the government of Israel says "To say that the Holocaust of European Jewry (1933-1945)" ... https://www.knesset.gov.il/shoah/eng/ehashoah.htm It does say that 1941 was when "Systematic genocide of the Jewish people became official Nazi policy" Socialresearch (talk) 00:45, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

That is, it's pretty clear that 1) the "Holocaust era" is a term to describe a time period, 1933-1945, and 2) the Holocaust was the event, also 1933-1945. Perhaps what you mean is that the systematic genocide is the thing that started in 1941. So it would seem much clearer to just say the Holocaust happened 1933 to 1945, but it was the systematic genocide that started in 1941. Socialresearch (talk) 00:45, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

A few more sources that identify the Holocaust as 1933-1945. The Chicago Public Library Holocaust timeline covers 1933 to 1946. https://www.chipublib.org/holocaust-chronology/ Another PBS page, NOVA, covers 1933 to 1945. https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/holocaust/timesans.html The New York City Museum of Jewish Heritage starts their time line in 1933. https://education.mjhnyc.org/timeline/ The Sandra Bornstein Holocaust Education Center Holocaust timeline covers 1933 to 1945 https://bornsteinholocaustcenter.org/holocaust-timeline/ This book review on "Debates on the Holocaust", in reviewing three scholarly books, says " All three also identify the relevant period as 1933–45, that is, they identify the entire period of the Nazi regime with its destructive anti-Jewish policies, not limiting ‘the Holocaust’ to the comprehensive murder campaign of the Jews since 1941." https://reviews.history.ac.uk/review/1160 Socialresearch (talk) 03:04, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

That is, all of the sources I could find put the Holocaust as 1933 to 1945. If you want wikipedia to agree with citable sources, sources that people can read for themselves, then the Holocaust would be 1933 to 1945. Socialresearch (talk) 03:04, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Just to address one point. You wrote: "the other citation, Yadvashem, doesn't actually say that there was a 'Holocaust era' which differed from the Holocaust". That's what I was responding to when I wrote that Yad Vashem doesn't say that." Is there something you want to change? If so, you would need to find Holocaust historians to support it. I've been trying to move the article away from reliance on museum websites. I added them because of ease of access, but it leads to problems, including the same site contradicting itself. SarahSV ^(talk) 03:37, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Question. You wrote this: Quote ( You wrote: "the other citation, Yadvashem, doesn't actually say that there was a 'Holocaust era' which differed from the Holocaust". That's what I was responding to when I wrote that Yad Vashem doesn't say that." ) Endquote. I'm still not clear on what your are saying. Are you agreeing that the Yad Vashem does not say that there was a 'Holocaust era' which differed from the Holocaust? Are you agreeing with the Yad Vashem page that says "The Holocaust is an historic event which began in 1933 and ended in 1945" https://www.yadvashem.org/education/what-is.html Socialresearch (talk) 03:09, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Second question. Again, all of the sources I could find put the Holocaust as 1933 to 1945. The book review I cited was by Professor Dan Michman, International Institute for Holocaust Research. He seems like a Holocaust historian. Also, the existing footnote in the wikipedia article, h, cites Michael Gray, listed as "a specialist in Holocaust education", and as I mentioned, two of the three definitions he gives list the Holocaust as being 1933-1945. Socialresearch (talk) 03:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

My point is that the wikipedia article should be changed. These two statements "Holocaust historians commonly define the Holocaust as the genocide of the European Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1941 and 1945" and "Historians distinguish between the Holocaust (the murder of six million Jews) and the Holocaust era, which began when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in January 1933" don't seem to agree with the sources I could find. Socialresearch (talk) 03:28, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Whatever change you want will need scholarly sources. Please post the citations here along with the change you'd like to see. SarahSV ^(talk) 03:43, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Very common term....so much so that the term is used for International recovery programs like International Commission on Holocaust Era Insurance Claims.Moxy- 03:23, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Just to mention, I'm not saying "Holocaust era" is not a term. Actually, I wrote above, "It seems likely that the more likely use of these terms is that the Holocaust was an event, and the Holocaust era was the time period in which the event occurred." And, I had also written, citing something very similar to what you listed, "Another wikipedia page seems to make no distinction between the Holocaust and the "Holocaust era". "The Holocaust Era Asset Restitution Taskforce or Project HEART was a Holocaust restitution project that was created by a decision of the Israeli Government to locate Holocaust victims and their heirs and the property that was taken from them during the Holocaust" Socialresearch (talk) 03:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

The Holocaust is commonly described as having taken place during World War II. This page by the Imperial War Museum might help to clear things up for you. SarahSV ^(talk) 05:38, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I saw that page from the Imperial War College. Here is what it says, "The Holocaust was the systematic murder of Europe's Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators during the Second World War. For the first time in history, industrial methods were used for the mass extermination of a whole people. Between 1933 and 1945, Jews were targeted for discrimination, segregation and extermination." So, this says that the Holocaust was 1933 to 1945. Socialresearch (talk) 13:04, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Please read the words that you've just quoted. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, I've read them. What's the point, exactly? --causa sui (talk) 01:36, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

If that's a question for me, can you rephrase? What is the point of what? SarahSV ^(talk) 02:21, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Here is my proposed revision of the section "Definition". First, I present the proposed revision. Then I list the sources, just author names, books or articles. Last, I list extended descriptions of the sources and authors, showing where they describe the years of the Holocaust.

REVISION

Holocaust historians commonly define the Holocaust as the genocide of the European Jews, along with millions of non-Jews, by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933, when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany, and 1945. Victims of the Holocaust era include those the Nazis viewed as inherently inferior (chiefly Slavs, the Roma, and the disabled), and those targeted because of their beliefs or behavior (such as Jehovah's Witnesses, communists, and homosexuals).[34] Peter Hayes writes that the persecution of these groups was less consistent than that of the Jews; for example, the Nazis' treatment of the Slavs consisted of "enslavement and gradual attrition", while some Slavs were favored (Hayes lists Bulgarians, Croats, Slovaks and some Ukrainians).[23] Against this, Hitler regarded the Jews as what Dan Stone calls "a Gegenrasse: a 'counter-race' ... not really human at all".[d]

SOURCES

Colls, Caroline Sturdy. Holocaust Archaeologies: Approaches and Future Directions. 2015. Springer. Cowan, Paula and Maitles, Henry. Understanding and Teaching Holocaust Education. Sage. 2016 Dean, Martin. Robbing the Jews. The Confiscation of Jewish Property in the Holocaust, 1933-1945. Cambridge University Press. 2008. Marilyn Harran, Dieter Kuntz, Russell Lemons, Robert A. Michael, Keith Pickus, John K. Roth. The Holocaust Chronicle. 2000. Publications International, Ltd. https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/history_books/1/ Hartmann R. (2018) Tourism to Memorial Sites of the Holocaust. In: R. Stone P., Hartmann R., Seaton T., Sharpley R., White L. (eds) The Palgrave Handbook of Dark Tourism Studies. Palgrave Macmillan, London. https://doi.org/10.1057/978-1-137-47566-4_20 Kucia, Marek. The Europeanization of Holocaust Memory and Eastern Europe. East European Politics and Societies and Cultures Volume 30 Number 1. February 2016 97–119. 2015 Sage Publications 10.1177/0888325415599195 Lefkovitz, Eliot, "The Holocaust". Spertus Institute for Jewish Learning and Leadership. https://www.spertus.edu/holocaust

EXTENDED DESCRIPTION OF SOURCES

Lefkovitz, Eliot, "The Holocaust". Spertus Institute for Jewish Learning and Leadership. https://www.spertus.edu/holocaust (note: I'm not sure of the date of this article. According to his bio page, "Dr. Lefkovitz has published studies on modern Jewish history, Jewish education, and Holocaust survivors. He serves as a historical consultant for Holocaust related films and theatrical portrayals, serves as an interviewer for survivor oral histories, and presents often on aspects of Holocaust history." https://www.spertus.edu/people/faculty/elliot-lefkovitz)

Colls, Caroline Sturdy. Holocaust Archaeologies: Approaches and Future Directions. 2015. Springer. Says "The Holocaust is also considered to be broad in temporal scope, spanning from the Nazi's rise to power in 1933 until the collapse of the Third Reich in 1945" https://books.google.com/books?id=_3LdBgAAQBAJ&dq=holocaust+1933&lr=&source=gbs_navlinks_s https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=_3LdBgAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PR5&dq=holocaust+1933&ots=LamxQGnN1r&sig=ST3AjlIcFclUlMecicYFhjUTAq0#v=onepage&q=rise to power in1933&f=false Also, the introduction, including the statement above, is here http://eprints.staffs.ac.uk/2675/9/Holocaust%20Archaeologies%20AAM%20Chapter%201.pdf

Dean, Martin. Robbing the Jews. The Confiscation of Jewish Property in the Holocaust, 1933-1945. Cambridge University Press. 2008. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/enterprise-and-society/article/abs/martin-dean-robbing-the-jews-the-confiscation-of-jewish-property-in-the-holocaust-19331945-cambridge-university-press2008-437-pp-isbn-9780521888257-6800-cloth-isbn-9780521129053-2899-paper/59C7033CF0F05F69FC7517E6B69DFEDD also here https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/51809176/Robbing_the_Jews.pdf?1487179667=&response-content-disposition=inline;+filename=Robbing_the_Jews_The_Confiscation_of_Jew.pdf&Expires=1618068880&Signature=V0iBPfBRadHxmDbzKka7Q9mXHp-uICJgCsi~-P9pYFIK9r9koRIwXTib-KavkATanxMNaRJk8NsKWrLVINJEHSG5vGyfEGFJTZIcoC76UbG8iNrFuQtOXWnZfCTTGsuWzZ2EKldfM4rLCpbU-c8VIL1gLPY9SKAnbuPIIhAF4NFxuAqR0NQnR8uT3foT7r-YBpZZrk60pl9jyNwHYBCQMU-fWHyowGPBNtIpD10uyVjIkxLQSVtyhLKrV9m-QpX~Sr1YZJ7BVly~kOdIDRFvrwjhFi0DQ3yRqQhqfoLjbcSXKA~IfexX8ap10SV6jRQFvjHF4DJnVbtEbKUKOIjc1g__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

Cowan, Paula and Maitles, Henry. Understanding and Teaching Holocaust Education. Sage. 2016 Says on page 6, "Because nazi discrimination against the Jews began with Hitler's accession to power in January 1933, many historians consider this the start fo the Holocaust era." https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=-8SCDQAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PP1&dq=holocaust+1933&ots=k2lOey1DyD&sig=q0khZoHcglRgXvNfdNlqstET_hw#v=onepage&q=began%20was%201933&f=false

Marilyn Harran, Dieter Kuntz, Russell Lemons, Robert A. Michael, Keith Pickus, John K. Roth. The Holocaust Chronicle. 2000. Publications International, Ltd. https://digitalcommons.chapman.edu/history_books/1/ The complete full-text of a seminal book for Holocaust studies, The Holocaust Chronicle. The site contains every word of the main text, as well as the index and all of the images from the print edition. The information within was gathered and fact-checked by top Holocaust scholars, and covers everything 1933-1945, beginning with the restrictive laws passed when Hitler took power to the deaths of at least six million Jews, Gypsies, Freemasons, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, prisoners of war, Communists, and others.

Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933–1945. Volume I: Early Camps, Youth Camps, and Concentration Camps and Subcamps under the SS-Business Administration Main Office (WVHA). https://www.ushmm.org/research/publications/encyclopedia-camps-ghettos General Editor: Geoffrey P. Megargee According to wikipedia, "Geoffrey P. Megargee (November 4, 1959 – August 1, 2020) was an American historian and author who specialized in World War II military history and the history of the Holocaust. He served as the project director and editor-in-chief for the Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933–1945 produced by the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. Megargee's work on the German High Command (the OKW) won the 2001 Distinguished Book Award from the Society for Military History." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_P._Megargee

Hartmann R. (2018) Tourism to Memorial Sites of the Holocaust. In: R. Stone P., Hartmann R., Seaton T., Sharpley R., White L. (eds) The Palgrave Handbook of Dark Tourism Studies. Palgrave Macmillan, London. https://doi.org/10.1057/978-1-137-47566-4_20 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1057/978-1-137-47566-4_20 "Few historical periods in human history are so fatally associated with the destruction of human lives as Hitler’s ‘Third Reich’. Historic places honouring the victims of National Socialistic Germany form a wide and expanding network of heritage sites in Europe. Most of the places where the horrific events occurred during 1933–1945 have been broadly denoted as Holocaust memorial sites in the remembrance of the six million Jews who died, and the many other ethnic, religious, social, and political groups which were subjected to persecution." Hartman is a professor at the Department of Geography and Environmental Sciences, at teh University of Colorado, Denver. Among his areas of expertise are Europe and Geography of Tourism. Among his publications are Hartmann, Rudi. "Places with a Disconcerting Past: Issues and Trends in Holocaust Tourism," invited article In EuropeNow, Sept 6, 2017, Issue 10, pp. 6 – 12. https://www.europenowjournal.org/2017/09/05/places-with-a-disconcerting-past-issues-and-trends-in-holocaust-tourism/ and Horror and Human Tragedy Revisited: The Management of Sites of Atrocities for Tourism, Rudi Hartmann, Co-Editor, jointly with Gregory Ashworth, New York: CognizantCommunications Corp., 226 pp, 2005.

Kucia, Marek. The Europeanization of Holocaust Memory and Eastern Europe. East European Politics and Societies and Cultures Volume 30 Number 1. February 2016 97–119. 2015 Sage Publications 10.1177/0888325415599195 http://eeps.sagepub.com hosted at http://online.sagepub.com The article starts with this: More than seventy years since it happened, the Holocaust—“the state-sponsored persecution and murder of European Jews by Nazi Germany and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945” I think the citation would be to here https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=903733 But the paper is available here https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/53125064.pdf The author bio says this: Marek Kucia is an Associate Professor at the Institute of Sociology of the Jagiellonian University in Kraków and Jean Monnet Lecturer at the Centre for European Studies. In the academic year 2013 -14 he was also Marie Curie Fellow at the Centre for European Studies of Lund University

Michael Gray, a specialist in Holocaust education,[29] offers three definitions of the Holocaust: (a) "the persecution and murder of Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators between 1933 and 1945", which includes Kristallnacht in 1938; (b) "the systematic mass murder of the Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators between 1941 and 1945", which recognizes the German policy shift in 1941 toward extermination; and (c) "the persecution and murder of various groups by the Nazi regime and its collaborators between 1933 and 1945", which fails to recognize that the European Jews were targeted for annihilation. NOTE that 2 of these three definitions have the Holocaust as 1933-1945. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Socialresearch (talk • contribs) 15:59, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

You will need massive discussion and consensus to make such a major change. It will need to start with a request for comment; four people or even a dozen people talking about it on this page can not create consensus for such an important article. Until then, any change of this sort will be strongly and appropriately resisted. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 16:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm responding to a request by SarahSV "Whatever change you want will need scholarly sources. Please post the citations here along with the change you'd like to see. SarahSV" Socialresearch (talk) 20:16, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I understand that. Your proposed revision will need massive discussion and consensus to make such major change. Even if you were to convince SarahSV, you'd still need a far broader consensus to change the focus of the article in this way. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 20:40, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

The sources should be Holocaust historians, not scholarly sources in general. The genocide of the European Jews is generally thought to have started in 1941 in the Soviet Union with the mass shooting of the families of Jewish functionaries, not the male functionaries alone. See the article here, 4th paragraph. This is described as "a process of increasingly radical interpretations of orders". SarahSV ^(talk) 02:30, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 April 2021

Ukrainians or Soviet civilians should be put back in the lead as they are stated as victims of Nazism on the page. The Source in the lead states regular Ukrainians, were victims of Nazism so they should be in the lead also. From the source in the lead,

Dan Stone (Histories of the Holocaust, 2010): "Europe's Romany (Gypsy) population was also the victim of genocide under the Nazis. Many other population groups, notably Poles, Ukrainians, and Soviet prisoners of war were killed in huge numbers

reliable sources state that "Nowhere was the wartime German Occupation of Europe more brutal and destructive than in the Soviet Union https://academic.oup.com/ehr/article-abstract/CXXVI/519/386/382298 151.210.133.226 (talk) 13:36, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

The point of the lead is not to list every group, but to offer examples, which is why it says "including". I think we should probably cut the list down further. Bear in mind that this is about the Holocaust, not the war in general. SarahSV ^(talk) 19:05, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Here is an estimate of how many people were killed by the nazis in the Holocaust. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution Socialresearch (talk) 16:12, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

It's a good presentation of the numbers of the victims both of the Holocaust and of Nazism as a whole. The coatrack in that last sentence needs some trimming, though. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 04:14, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Let's return to this list:

including ethnic Poles, Soviet civilians and prisoners of war, the Roma, the handicapped, political and religious dissidents, and gay men.

"Political and religious opponents" is way better than just Jehovah's Witnesses, Black Germans were rarely targeted. RF354 (talk) 07:53, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this, except for Soviet civilians. The figures are too murky. SarahSV ^(talk) 01:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I added it as suggested, including Soviet civlians. SarahSV ^(talk) 07:55, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Yad Vashem citation

In the definition section, it says "Historians distinguish between the Holocaust (the murder of six million Jews) and the Holocaust era, which began when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany in January 1933.[34][h] " One of the sources for "h" is Yad Vashem. However, on this "What is the Holocaust" page of the Yad Vashem website, it says "The Holocaust is an historic event which began in 1933 and ended in 1945". And actually, the "h" citation says ""The Holocaust was the murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazis and their collaborators. Between the German invasion of the Soviet Union in the summer of 1941 and the end of the war in Europe in May 1945, Nazi Germany and its accomplices strove to murder every Jew under their domination. Because Nazi discrimination against the Jews began with Hitler's accession to power in January 1933, many historians consider this the start of the Holocaust era." That is, Yad Vashem is saying that the Holocaust "era" and the Holocaust are the same thing at the same time. Yad Vashem -is- saying that the mass murder, or genocide, or large scale, systematic slaughter part of the Holocaust started in 1941. However, Yad Vashim is -not- saying that the Holocaust began in 1941. Their site is also saying, quite clearly, that the Holocaust "era" and the Holocaust are the same time period, 1933 to 1945. The Yad Vashem citation is not supporting the point that wikipedia is trying to make. Socialresearch (talk) 02:01, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I meant this interactive timeline page on the Yad Vashem site https://www.yadvashem.org/education/what-is.html That's where it says "The Holocaust is an historic event which began in 1933 and ended in 1945," Socialresearch (talk) 02:11, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm curious why the date range makes such a big difference one way or another; the article necessarily covers events starting with the rise of Nazism, regardless if we call that first period "Holocaust era" or "Holocaust". --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 04:37, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

My suggestions started as friendly suggestions, on something comparatively small. My suggestions have ended up, however, as demonstrations of how strongly you folks are opposed to even discussing any revisions at all, even though I have fairly clearly demonstrated my points. As JP Gordon wrote "any change of this sort will be strongly and appropriately resisted." Socialresearch (talk) 01:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Wow. Good selective quote. It's right here, we can all see it. I said It will need to start with a request for comment; four people or even a dozen people talking about it on this page can not create consensus for such an important article. Until then, any change of this sort will be strongly and appropriately resisted. I call for broader discussion and you parse it as opposition to discussion? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 14:23, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

How about this quote from jp gordon? "Even if you were to convince SarahSV, you'd still need a far broader consensus to change the focus of the article in this way". That is, you doubt Sarah would be convinced, so you think it unlikely such a change could be discussed. And it is pretty obvious none of you would consider any changes. You didn't -really- call for a broader discussion. No one had any comments like "Hmm, this is an interesting point. Please bring it up in a request to comment." Or "I'd like to see a discussion of this point". Or, to expand on what you wrote "four people or even a dozen people talking about it on this page can not create consensus for such an important article. Until then, any change of this sort will be strongly and appropriately resisted", you -didn't- write "A discussion here is a good place to start. Let's see if we can get a consensus from a group of us, and then we can bring it up for a request to comment." There was ZERO encouragement of further discussion, and just total DIScouragement of any further discussion. So your comment about strong resistance is representative. Socialresearch (talk) 01:25, 17 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 April 2021

For it to be mentioned in the first paragraph of the article that the Holocaust is an event where 17 million people were killed, which includes 6 million Jews, not that it was an event where 6million Jews were killed. Most people think they killed 6 million people, when they actually murdered 11million more. The Nazis did not just hate one group, they hated anyone that wasn't them. This should be at the top, not halfway down the article as if gays, disabled and the gypsies, and POWs are some kind of afterthought. 86.150.81.87 (talk) 12:41, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. That's a pretty contentious change you're requesting. You'll need to get consensus for this change before anything will be done. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:49, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Hans Frank - NSDAP-politician, who were a main organisator of the holocaust

the main organisator of the holocaust was Hans Frank, a jurist, who made a political career in the nsdap and the judiciary ...

hans frank was the general governor of the german occupied poland ... all, that happened in poland, was coordinated and organised by Hans Frank ...