Talk:Taiwan

Taiwan Country

Why does Wikipedia recognise the Republic of China as a country and not the State of Palestine?

the State of Palestine has UN observer status and has more recognition than the Republic of China 31.111.51.202 (talk) 08:26, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Probably because most of the world treats Taiwan as a country (really a State). They just don't say it technically at parties. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Country applies to Taiwan because in the non political sense a country is well defined if it has natural boundaries. Palestine doesn’t really have natural boundaries.

This is a rationalisation for why sources use “country”, it’s not a Wikipedia decision. Wikipedia follows the sources. SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:35, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't get what the real issue concerning the term used in the article of the State of Palestine. "Sovereign state" is actually a more precise word than a "country" in reference to one's statehood. For example, Both Scotland and England are also referred to as country, but they're not defined as "sovereign state". LVTW2 (talk) 17:39, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Shouldn't you be asking that on the State of Palestine Wikipedia Talk page instead? Eclipsed830 (talk) 18:06, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Slatersteven (talk) 11:15, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Each decision is made separately. As I stated above, I do not think that the description in this article is consistent with Wikipedia policy. How issues get decided on individual articles frequently depends on how the majority of editors involved in that article interpret policy. However, not calling a state a country is not necessarily denying that it is one. Note that Wikipedia editors have created a new concept of "sovereign country." TFD (talk) 18:55, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

I think a better comparison is Korea. Since the ceasefire of the Korean War, North and South Korea operate as independent states, even though technically they're one country (Because no treaty has been signed that says otherwise). Likewise, China and Taiwan operate as two independent states, even though both are part of one country (until some treaty is signed that says otherwise). So there are three options--China can become part of Taiwan, Taiwan can become part of China, or they can continue to operate independently. It seems logical that if China doesn't want two states, but Taiwan doesn't want to be controlled by China, then the only option si that China should voluntarily submit to Taiwan. 73.67.242.64 (talk) 06:34, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

It's controversial to assert that China and Taiwan are part of one country. International treaties which are related to Taiwan do not support the said contention. Matt Smith (talk) 08:00, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

There's two significant differences between DRK-ROK and PRC-ROC. Firstly, as Matt Smith has said above, the island of Taiwan is not necessarily under the de jure sovereignty of either the ROC or the PRC. The Treaty of San Francisco (1951/52) left Taiwan as effectively a non-self-governing territory, akin to present-day Western Sahara in western Africa. There was never a legal international treaty that was signed to cede Taiwan from the Empire of Japan to either the ROC or the PRC, even though the ROC gained effective control of the territory (Taiwan) and has been ruling it from 1945 up until the present day. Secondly, the ROC was established several decades before the PRC, which means that there's a clear hierarchy of the ROC coming first in history and the PRC coming second. By this logic, the ROC that has been exiled to Taiwan can be considered simultaneously a rump state and a government-in-exile, whereas the PRC is the newcomer under the principle of the theory of the succession of states. On the other hand, the DRK and the ROK were created at roughly the same time, so it's difficult to argue that either one of them is a rump state or a government-in-exile. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 10:58, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Comparing to the lead sentences of other articles, currently Kosovo and South Ossetia are referred to as "partially recognized states", while North Cyprus and Somaliland are called "de facto states". The fact that Taiwan's disputed status isn't mentioned until the 19th sentence of this article feels inconsistent with this, and not exactly neutral. Of course, the ROC has had de facto control of Taiwan for much longer than those other examples, but it's still only officially recognized by 13 UN member states. I think a NPOV approach would be to mention the disputed status of Taiwan immediately, while also being clear on how long the ROC has had de facto control of the island. Maybe something like this:

"The Republic of China is a partially recognized state which since 1949 has maintained de facto control over the island of Taiwan (also claimed by the People's Republic of China). As of 2022, 13 of the 193 UN member states officially recognize the Republic of China, while many others maintain unofficial relations."

Tim314 (talk) 17:12, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

FYI, Taiwan aka the ROC is never a "breakaway state" or "renegade Province" as the communist China favour to use, which constitutionally regarded itself as a continuation of the original Chinese Republic with its own sovereignty dates back to 1912 that never ceases to exist even after the Chinese Civil War, plus the fact that the Communist regime in Beijing never have actual rule over any part of Taiwan in its history, the PRC actually has no ground for pursuing the political propaganda about Taiwan as any form of "renegade Province". This is the basic factual and historical difference about your comparison with breakaway states of North Cyprus and South Ossetia which were established from secession, nothing is similar between them.

The cross-strait relations are basically two rival states vying for their legitimacy of "China", so it's in fact more similar to the case of Two Koreas, in which both Koreas are regarded as "countries" as well, and by your criterion, neither of them enjoy universal recognition. The terminology in referring the ROC as a "country" is based on the essence of history, which is also in conformity with the standard of other existing rival states. LVTW2 (talk) 18:04, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The ROC is essentially a rump state. The main contention to this definition is the fact that the ROC doesn't necessarily hold de jure sovereignty over Taiwan on the basis of the Treaty of San Francisco (1951/52), although the ROC has held de facto sovereignty over Taiwan since 1945. Some people argue on the aforementioned basis that the ROC is instead a government-in-exile. With that being said, the islands of Kinmen and Matsu were never covered by the Treaty of San Francisco due to being fundamental parts of China, so the ROC is indisputably a rump state with regards to only the islands of Kinmen and Matsu (and Wuqiu). This effectively makes the ROC the smallest rump state in the world as well as potentially the smallest rump state in the history of the world, if you exclude Taiwan from the definition of the ROC's de jure territories. The ROC is also effectively one of the only rump states in existence in the present day, although there is arguably some kind of an Afghan rump state after the fall of Kabul to the Taliban (2021). Some people argue that Russia is a rump state of the Soviet Union, but this is debatable. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:54, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Just correct the beginning to read "Taiwan,[II] officially the Republic of China (ROC),[I][h] is in East Asia," in accordance with Wikipedia policy that "zero information is better than false or misleading information" as the United States does not officially recognize the State of Taiwan. SoCalGoetz (talk) 06:18, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Why is Taiwan still called a country when this exists? https://7news.com.au/politics/world-politics/snickers-apologises-for-ad-in-which-it-calls-taiwan-a-country-c-7776287. Media lying? Gold Wario (talk) 23:47, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

What is the special relevance of the United States here? CMD (talk) 06:52, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Well, obviously not everyone agrees that it's a Country. If you give me rights to the page I'd be happy to replace the word "Country" with "island." I'm sure I could find a reliable source that Taiwan's most certainly an island. SoCalGoetz (talk) 07:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Although if you gave me the rights to the page I'd probably also specify which part of East Asia SoCalGoetz (talk) 07:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Why is there a HDI ranking? No UNDP HDI ranking exists for Taiwan

The lead section and the infobox puts Taiwan HDI as 0.916, and at 23rd. The "23rd" leads to List of countries by Human Development Index, whereby obviously Taiwan isn't there. Taiwan is not in the United Nations and therefore there is no HDI for Taiwan complied by the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP). The infobox doesn't seem to make any note of it too. Based on the source, it seems to be self-ranked by the Taiwanese government, which really shouldn't be placed on equal standing to the UNDP as there is a lack of impartiality. 58.125.149.68 (talk) 11:26, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps you should enlighten us as to what Taiwan's true HDI figure is, then. While impartiality may be a concern, I do think 23rd is a fair ranking. John Yunshire (talk) 11:34, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

The author of this discussion is arguing for the removal of an unfounded HDI ranking, so I'm not sure why you are asking them to give their personal estimate or "enlighten" you. What you or other editors think or what the Taiwanese government ranks itself as is irrelevant. The HDI ranking is determined by the UN. Governments cannot simply slot themselves in however they see fit. Given that the HDI ranking is an official list compiled by the UN and does not feature Taiwan, it should be removed. Sarrotrkux (talk) 22:23, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

It doesn't seem unfounded to me, we clearly explain where the number comes from and as far as I'm aware the calculation is reliable. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 23:17, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Which part of "What you or other editors think or what the Taiwanese government ranks itself as is irrelevant" did you fail to understand? Whatever you think about whether it's "reliable" or not has no basis on the fact that the very concept of a HDI ranking was introduced by the UNDP in 1990. It was invented by them. It's not up to governments to decide where they "think" they belong on the index if they weren't even ranked by the very organization that complies the ranking. It will negate the HDI itself, because then any government could just rank themselves wherever they see fit, which is exactly what the Taiwanese government has done. Do you see Taiwan here? Wikipedia doesn't reflect any HDI rankings for North Korea, Monaco, Nauru, San Marino, Somalia, and Tuvalu, because they are not ranked, and Taiwan shouldn't be any different. 116.91.23.215 (talk) 17:10, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Check those links, there are clearly HDI ratings in some of those... "What you or other editors think or what the Taiwanese government ranks itself as is irrelevant" is not a policy or guideline based argument, its not possible to understand because it has no logical basis. Congratulations on your first wikipedia edit BTW. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:48, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

Looking at the links, the HDI on Somalia is completely unsourced, while the source for San Marino is an unofficial PDF from 2009 by the single researcher not with the UNDP. I can't find the 0.875 figure within the PDF either so it's quite dubious where that came from. No HDI present for the other examples. 112.172.71.46 (talk) 17:47, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Glad you finally took a look at the articles, next time do that *before* linking them not after. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

It certainly violates RS to include this information. We do not AFAIK include this information for other subnational units. What for example is the HDI for Scotland? If we include it at all, it should be in the body and we should use a reliable secondary source. If self-serving claims by governments were treated as facts, we'd have a lot of changes to make to the North Korea article. TFD (talk) 14:07, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

You are mistaken, Taiwan is a national unit not a subnational one. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:01, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

If we're talking national units, that's the Republic of China. Taiwan is used as a colloquial name as its territories are almost entirely made up of the province itself and obviously to avoid confusion with the People's Republic of China. TFD didn't make a mistake. 112.172.71.46 (talk) 17:47, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

And you my friend would appear to be confusing Taiwan and Taiwan Province. This page is about the national unit (also known as the Republic of China), not the province. Also note that Taiwan is not "almost entirely made up of the province itself" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:53, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

It's similar to the use of the term province or Ulster when describing Northern Ireland. Strictly speaking it's not correct, because the Province of Ulster has different boundaries from Northern Ireland. But it's a common expression. TFD (talk) 21:05, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Nobody says "Taiwan" when they mean "Taiwan Province." Taiwan Province barely exists anymore, read the article about it. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:14, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

This discussion is tangential to the main discussion of the article. We do not have HDI fields in the info-boxes of any other subnational divisions, whatever you choose to call them. There is no reason to make an exception here. TFD (talk) 22:00, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

We already addressed that error, Taiwan is a national unit not a subnational one. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:07, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Taiwan is regarded as a national entity on Wikipedia. Otherwise, this entire article wouldn't even exist. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 04:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Island country

@Morrisonjohn022: What exactly is your objection about island country? Taiwan's an island. It's a country. That makes it an island country. John Yunshire (talk) 14:07, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

@John Yunshire: Their edit may have been procedural (as a precaution), but I do not think that a community consensus is necessary for such a change since it does not go against the existing consensus to call Taiwan a "country". Yue🌙 20:11, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I think it works either way, just noting that the category "Island countries" has been longstanding. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:56, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Taiwan is a State, not a Country. See: JOINT COMMUNIQUE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_China#United_States_policy SoCalGoetz (talk) 21:55, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

The words “state”, “nation” and “country” have different meanings, and you need to understand the differences before making statements like that. The common modifier “sovereign” to country shows that “country” doesn’t imply “sovereign”. Read more at country. My version: if you use “country” you are emphasising the land, not the people. If you use “state” you are emphasising the politics, not the land. If you use “nation”, you are emphasising the people, not the land or the politics. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:33, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Name change from Formosa

Why is there NO information on why and when Western governments and media made that change? When I was in 5th or 6th grade, Formosa, Quemoy, and Matsu were in the news. Would have to have been between Sept 1959 and Jan 1961, because President Eisenhower was involved.2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 13:57, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

You might want to take that up with the Taiwanese who say it. is Taiwan, the west did don't change it, the locals did. Slatersteven (talk) 14:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you.

How do we know? Do we have a source on that? It also seems to me we should provide the year that happened. Thanks again! 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 15:06, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Well it has been referred to as Taiwan since at least the late 1700's. Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm talking about Western governments and media. As I said, in the 1959-1961 period, when it was in the American news, the islands were only referred to as Formosa, Quemoy, and Matsu. 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 15:26, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Why does it matter when they started using they name? Slatersteven (talk) 15:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Normally, when there's a change in the way foreign countries are referred to by English-speaking countries, a date, or at least a year, is given. I know this cz I'm historically-minded, and I note these things in my personal summaries when I look them up in Wikipedia.

I was shocked the first time I saw "Taiwan" in the news. It took me a while to understand they were talking about what we'd all been calling Formosa. 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 15:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

As far as I know it has never been called Formosa as a country, ROC, Nationalist China, but never Formosa. Slatersteven (talk) 15:39, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

The most likely explanation for that is that you weren't consuming American news in the late fifties.

During the incident I'm talking about, I kept hearing the phrase "Formosa, Quemoy, and Matsu" over and over again on the news. 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 15:45, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Here's one example:

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1958-60v19/d177 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 15:49, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Ike's terminology: "...Formosa, where the government of Free China is now located."

https://teachingamericanhistory.org/document/report-to-the-american-people-regarding-the-situation-in-the-formosa-straits/ 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 16:05, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Reading your comment more closely, you could be right. The COUNTRY was called ROC, etc. (I'm not sure about "Taiwan.") But the islands themselves were Formosa, etc.

My fault for not originally specifying what I was talking about. 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 15:53, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

And wikipedia is not just about Americans view of the world. So what they used to call it is not more relevant than what we (or the French) did. Slatersteven (talk) 16:46, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Well, I think what English-speaking counties call other countries is more relevant in en.wiki.

In my experience, the US and Commonwealth countries tend to use the same names, and change at the same time. They usually take their cue from the other countries' governments themselves. When approved names change is usually noted in en.wiki. One example is the Czech Republic finally approving the use of Czechia as an alternative in 2016. But I've seen many examples.

As we noted, Formosa was never the name of the country, just the island with 99% of its land mass. And it was a name that was, in my lifetime, in the forefront of the news and government documents.

I've always been satisfied with wikipedia's handling of name changes, but I'm dissatisfied in this case. 2602:306:BC65:5CA9:B44E:1014:B6CD:E818 (talk) 17:17, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree it's an interesting question IP, but the answers don't seem to be on the page so for the moment we can't speculate much more here. You may have more luck asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. CMD (talk) 13:56, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

colonial name .....but a great beer Moxy- 15:32, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Or earlier Taiwan Prefecture. Slatersteven (talk) 14:30, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Formosa was the Portuguese name for the island of Taiwan first used by Europeans long before it became the seat of the government of the Republic of China. It was Portuguese for "beautiful island." The concept that the islands were a separate country from China would not come into use until long after the Republic of China lost official recognition by the UN and it was clear they would never retake the mainland. In recent years, many countries change the English language version of their place names, for example Peking became Beijing. But I don't know if the ROC ever made any such request. TFD (talk) 15:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Austronesian

It is anachronistic to refer to the Neolithic settlers of Taiwan as Austronesian-speaking. Most linguists agree that Taiwan is the homeland of Austronesian, but to project the language family further back is unjustified, and you won't see academic sources doing it. "Austronesians" is even worse, an umbrella term for the diverse peoples currently speaking Austronesian languages, and even more inappropriate for that period. The most we can say is that these settlers were the ancestors of today's Taiwanese indigenous peoples.

That most linguists believe that Taiwan is the homeland of Austronesian is an interesting point, and is mentioned in the body of the article, but not everything belongs in the lead. Kanguole 11:14, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

“Taiwan is the homeland of Austronesian”?

I see Taiwanese sources write this, but it is not likely. Taiwan may be a homeland of Austronesian people and language, and may even be the oldest ongoing homeland, but “the” homeland? No, that’s an extraordinary claim. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:47, 14 July 2022 (UTC)

Republic of China consists of more territory than just the island ‘taiwan’

Taiwan should not be the first name that appears on this article, since republic of China (roc) governs territories that aren’t part of the taiwan island. Thus, calling republic of China simply Taiwan is a misnomer.

The page should say: “The republic of China (roc), informally or mistakenly named Taiwan…”

I advice this change since Wikipedia should be as accurate as possible. 84.26.190.194 (talk) 22:57, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Wikipedia consensus and sources are against this. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:05, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Please know that whether the ROC has territorial sovereignty over Taiwan (island) is debatable, too. Therefore, the assertion regarding Taiwan (island) in your section title is controversial. Matt Smith (talk) 02:44, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

There were countless discussion over the title and which made a firm ground to adopt "Taiwan" as common name and generally recognizable term in English language Wikipedia. The decision made by the community consensus is here to stay. The following are a few examples of the same issue that have been discussed:

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5] LVTW2 (talk) 14:16, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Cuba controls more than just the island of Cuba. Jamaica controls more than just the island of Jamaica. And so on and so on. Either we need to change a lot of articles or you are simply speaking nonsense. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 21:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Taiwan can be thought of as the name of all of the islands under the rule of the ROC (aka Taiwan). Historically, Penghu/Pescadores has been regarded as a part of the Taiwan archipelago. The main contentious islands are Kinmen, Matsu and Wuqiu, which have historically belonged to Fujian Province in China. However, those islands are much smaller than Taiwan, so in the grand scheme of things, they don't really matter all that much. They can be mentioned in the introduction of the article, but they shouldn't warrant the entire article's title being changed. For a comparison, Spain rules some tiny territories in the north of Morocco, including Ceuta and Melilla, among others. And yet, we don't call Spain "Spain plus some bits of northern Africa" on Wikipedia. That's because those bits are so small so as to be negligible in notability. It's the same with Taiwan and the Fujianese islands. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 04:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Kinmen, Matsu and Wuqiu still belong to Fujian Province. Matt Smith (talk) 06:43, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

They legally belong to Fujian Province, but they geopolitically don't. Again, these islands are so negligible so as to be insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Like I said, they are of similar importance as Spanish-controlled Ceuta and Melilla in Moroccan-claimed territory. Both of these territories are super tiny. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:28, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Interestingly, the first map doesn't even show Kinmen and Matsu since the resolution is so low (as I've explained in a section below). Indeed, some of my comments are contradictory since I've simultaneously said that the islands are "really important" and also "negligible". Their importance is relative. In the PRC-vs-ROC-vs-Taiwan dispute, the islands certainly are significant. However, in a global context, they really don't matter all that much. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:31, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2022

Taiwan is not “officially the republic of China” Taiwan is officially Taiwan. China has zero diplomatic control over Taiwan. 185.245.240.4 (talk) 07:14, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Taiwan's official name is Republic of China; that's what the country calls itself. This doesn't mean the People's Republic of China has diplomatic control. Nythar^T.C 07:24, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Is Taiwan a Country?

That's debated, but it is a democracy! SoCalGoetz (talk) 23:23, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia consensus and sources it's clearly a country. Check out the talk archives. You seem to be fixated on this and your own personal talk page says you will change the info as soon as you get rights to it... whatever than means. Anyone can edit the article but I'd advise not to go against sources and consensus. This talk page is where we discuss specific changes... it is not a forum or blog. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:28, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

description for the maps

it would be better if there is a description for the maps to avoid confusion and to know what map is what. Credmaster 20 (talk) 07:57, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

There already is a description for each map. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:49, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

1) Show globe (island of Taiwan highlighted)

--> This map shows Taiwan's location on the globe. Taiwan's political status is contentious. It is claimed and controlled by the ROC, claimed by the PRC, and also claimed by the Taiwan independence movement, essentially. Legally, the ROC doesn't necessarily hold de jure sovereignty over the island according to the Treaty of San Francisco, but the ROC has indeed held de facto sovereignty over the island for the past 70+ years.

2) Show map of territories administered by the ROC (Free Area)

--> This map shows all of the extra tiny islands that the ROC controls, some of which are located inside of China's undisputed territory, namely Kinmen, Matsu, and Wuqiu, which are off-shore islands of Fujian (and nobody really disputes that they belong to/with Fujian). --> EDIT: Fujian is a province of China that is 99.99% under the control of the PRC.

--> Some of the other islands shown include Taiwan's off-shore islands, including the Pescadores (Penghu) archipelago, Orchid Island (Lanyu), and Green Island (Lu Tao), all three of which are generally regarded as parts of Taiwan.

--> Further still, the islands in the South China Sea that are controlled by the ROC are shown. Nobody agrees on who owns these islands. They are part of the South China Sea islands dispute.

--> EDIT2: This map also effectively has the distinction of being the only one out of the three that shows the island of Taiwan's exact geographic silhouette. The other two globe maps show Taiwan as a trapezium, because the resolution is so low.

3) Show map of Taiwan (dark green) with historical ROC territorial claims (light green)

--> This maps shows the Republic of China's constitutional territorial claims, including the island of Taiwan, which is under the ROC's control, as well as mainland China and Mongolia (Outer Mongolia), and a bunch of other territories in continental Asia that correspond to the historical borders of the Qing dynasty (except for Taiwan itself after 1895).

--> This map also effectively shows the Republic of China's location in Asia, serving a similar purpose as the first map except with the constitutional territories shown as well. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:00, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

In reply to myself, out of all three of these maps, I would say that the most important one is the first one, because people generally care more about where Taiwan is located (than the other details). The first map is also the most neutral one since it shows Taiwan according to its post-San Francisco Treaty status, i.e. being a separate entity from China (which, yes, is considered neutral, because it's both de jure and de facto true).

The second map is pretty useful for getting a close-up of the precise territories that are controlled by the ROC. Some of these islands are really important, particularly Kinmen and Matsu, but you can't see them in the first map because they are nearly microscopic.

The third map is not very useful, but it does display the technically-accurate borders that are claimed by the ROC in its constitution. The constitutional claims are IMO a bit ridiculous since they correspond to the borders of the Qing dynasty, which was the regime in China that preceded the ROC and ended in 1911. This is essentially the borders of a country that dissolved over 100 years ago, and the borders are still technically claimed by the ROC in the present day. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 09:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

It may seem "not useful" or "ridiculous", but they are nevertheless still accurate. The claims has not been explicitly dropped in its entirety. Personal opinions of editors does not override them. 125.129.121.15 (talk) 17:54, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The main reason I find the constitutional claims to be ridiculous is that they are so outdated. The ROC claims Mongolia according to this definition, as I've pointed out, but I've always found that claim to be absurd. Mongolia's days as a province of China (Qing dynasty) are long over. Meanwhile, the ROC's constitutional claim to Tuva is another fruitless pursuit; that territory is firmly within Russia's grip and has been for a long time now. The only way for the ROC to get Tuva back is if Russia completely collapses as a state (not necessarily a bad possibility at the moment, tbh). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 18:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

The claims have in a technical sense been dropped, the Taiwanese supreme court has ruled that they never had legal standing. The assertion that the claims are accurate is your personal opinion which is contradicted by WP:RS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:17, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

"The PRC refuses ... and requires ..."

"The PRC refuses ... and requires ..."

The PRC cannot **require** "all nations with which it has diplomatic relations to ... [recognize] its claims to Taiwan" as the PRC doesn't have the legal authority to force any other sovereign nations to do anything.

As such, the word "requires" should be changed to "extorts" here, as "extorts" is the correct English word for this forceful behavior. Also, please don't falsely argue that use of an incorrect word, such as "requires,", guarantees a NPOV ... Using "requires" in the article only guarantees that Wikipedia may be used to promote state-sponsored authoritarian propaganda and terrorism. 68.54.0.181 (talk) 11:39, 7 August 2022 (UTC)