Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

RfC on JOBTITLES

Should the "Positions, offices, and occupational titles" section be changed to reflect actual practice, namely capitalising titles adjacent to names? ~~~~ A.D.Hope (talk) 19:14, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Survey

• CLOSE for longer RFCBEFORE or OPPOSE ... but might support some rephrasing of the guideline. For context, this discussion started above, with #Conflict between JOBTITLE and SURNAME. The proposer noted that, though JOBTITLES says to only capitalize titles before names, we do, in practice, capitalize some post-name titles, like "William, Prince of Wales". Above, I noted, "Per WP:NCROY, royalty often use titles in lieu of surnames. As such, the title is part of the name. Though subtle, I think there's a distinction between saying, for example, "William, Prince of Wales" vs. "Charles was the prince of Wales". Notably, capitalization seems to be standard practice around the various articles: In this ongoing RFC discussing how a list of funeral attendees should be presented, no one is suggesting lowercasing titles." I'd amend that to note, as NCROY does, that a similar title-in-lieu-of-surname practice is often used for non-royal nobility or consorts (Albert, Prince Consort). That said, there are a few exceptions, James Hepburn, 4th Earl of Bothwell has both a surname and a title.
  Regardless of the inconsistency, I think the above proposal is too broad. I'd oppose an approach of capitalizing all adjacent titles (I'd prefer "George W. Bush, president of the United States at the time, ..." to "George W. Bush, President of the United States at the time, ...". I might support some explicit clarification to account for the type of British nobility titles OP has mentioned, but I think such an amendment should be tailored to those titles (and probably discussed at the relevant Wikiproject—Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility?—prior to an RFC).--Jerome Frank Disciple 12:11, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Discussion

• Over the past few weeks I've had a number of discussions about exactly when to capitalise titles; despite JOBTITLES the general consensus on English Wikipedia seems to be to capitalise them when they're directly adjacent to a person's name, except when they're commercial or informal. Rather than contradicting this, as JOBTITLES currently does, would it be worth updating the section? Although my preference would be for the current wording, I don't see any realistic prospect of either changing how titles are capitalised in practice or updating the thousands of articles which must technically be in violation of the MoS. Thoughts? A.D.Hope (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

  MOS:JOBTITLE already reads:

  When followed by a person's name to form a title, i.e., when they can be considered to have become part of the name: President Nixon, not president Nixon; Pope John XXIII, not pope John XXIII.

  What change is being proposed? —Bagumba (talk) 19:33, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

  Captalising when a title follows a person's name. JOBTITLES would currently have 'Richard Nixon, president of the United States', but I propose changing this to allow 'Richard Nixon, President of the United States' to better reflect how Wikipedia editors seem to capitalise in practice. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:36, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

  I disagree with this proposal. To my eye, the example above is improper for English and promoting it would gradually lead to such words always being capitalized, more as in German. To try to "reflect how Wikipedia editors seem to" do something is not, in my opinion, a rational or sustainable way to organize the MOS.Dayirmiter (talk) 07:26, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  The above example isn't improper English, to my knowledge, although admittedly it wouldn't be endorsed by the Chicago MoS. I do see your point, but then organising our MoS to work with editors rather than against them is both rational and sustainable, surely? A.D.Hope (talk) 10:52, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  Frankly, I think most editors would use an article there, "Richard Nixon, the president of the United States, ...." Would your proposal also require capitalization there?--Jerome Frank Disciple 12:02, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  No, it wouldn't. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:19, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  Okay, so just so I'm clear: "Richard Nixon, President of the United States at the time" but "Richard Nixon, the president of the United States at the time"?--Jerome Frank Disciple 12:25, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  Yes. I know it's anecdotal, but that's the style a lot of editors seem to naturally adopt. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  There's a well established principle in a number of style guides where the title preceding the name is capitalized, but not when it follows the name. So "President Nixon" and "Richard Nixon, president of the United States," but not "Richard Nixon, President of the United States." I'd argue that where you see the later happening, it's both against the MOS and generally incorrect. More often, I've seen people misread MOS:JOBTITLE to say that "president Richard Nixon" is correct, probably confusing something like "the president, Richard Nixon," where it would be lowercased. That said, royal titles like "William, Prince of Wales," are a different case in part because you would never say "the President" in running text without the president's name, but you would say "the Prince of Wales" because of how the title acts as name. —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 13:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  I mostly agree with your comment ... although I do want to caveat you would never say "the President" in running text without the president's name seems ... which I suppose might be true if you mean "on Wikipedia", but certainly outside of Wikipedia, "the president announced" is quite common.--Jerome Frank Disciple 14:08, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  My understanding is that you should write "the President" in running text [w]hen a title is used to refer to a specific person as a substitute for their name during their time in office (the second bullet point of MOS:JOBTITLES). Rosbif73 (talk) 15:07, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for this! I was wondering where I had seen that—I wrongly assumed I had seen it in a third-party style guide, but I actually found that most style guides disagree! (In a 1999 article, William Safire announced that the NYT would be joining the AP in not capitalizing president even when referring to a specific person; he said his preference was to capitalize in such a case, though he said the approach was "no longer stylish".[1]) CMoS, AP, and NYT all seem to now agree to lowercase it. I must have seen that passage in MOS:JOBTITLES and just forgot it was there!--Jerome Frank Disciple 15:46, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  Yes, at the moment our MoS is very clear on 'the President' rather than 'the president' when referring to a specific person. Again, although that usage seems to have fallen out of favour among style guides it does still seem to be popular on Wikipedia, so changing it is a question of balancing stylistic trends with how editors actually write. As I understand it neither usage is really wrong, after all.

  I do wonder if the best thing would be to make the MoS itself less absolute on this issue and title capitalisation, and aim for consistency within a page rather than across the whole enyclopedia? I think @Mgp28 will back me up when I say that there are pages where the main editors would resist the MoS as currently written being strictly imposed, and not unreasonably. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  Hurm, the examples there are "Queen" and "Pope", which seem a bit different to me than president, mostly because royal (and to a degree ecclesiastical) titles seem to be referring to the person, while president and governor would refer more to the office (i.e., one is more about WHO it is, the other is about the person's position). But that also sounds like I'm stretching for a rationale ... :) —Carter (Tcr25) (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

  I agree that it would feel totally wrong to write "the king" or "the pope" (referring to a specific person at a given point in time) but somehow more acceptable to write "the prime minister" or "the bishop" in the same context. If we are to change the guidance, we need clear rationale for the distinction. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:50, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

  I have followed this discussion around a few different conversations since Talk:List_of_guests_at_the_coronation_of_Charles_III_and_Camilla#RfC_on_capitalisation_and_peerage_format. At that point it applied to princes, earls, lords and so on. MOS:SURNAME advised to capitalize these names. I was unconvinced that MOS:JOBTITLE should apply to all of these people but there was a possible contradiction so I suggested above that it might make sense to rephrase the example for when the title has become part of the name:

  • When they can be considered to have become part of the name, i.e. when combined with a person's name to form a title: President Nixon, not president Nixon; Pope John XXIII, not pope John XXIII; William, Prince of Wales, not William, prince of Wales

  I still think this could be reasonable, but only in the context of the title being part of the name in that position, not generically whenever a title follows a name. I would not think we should expand it to "Richard Nixon, President". Also, as presently phrased it might suggest capitalizing job titles that are never used as part of a name, "Adam Smith, Butcher", which I don't think it the intent. --Mgp28 (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

• Now that's its become clear this is about writing ""Richard Nixon, President of the United States" instead of "Richard Nixon, president of the United States", I hvae to oppose, because the comma separates them into separate clauses, and the title is no longer directly connected to the name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:02, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose, reluctantly, for the same reason given by User:SMCandlish. Personally, I strongly dislike the trend towards writing titles in lower case (e.g., president in lieu of President). But it is true that several style guides have adopted the distinction between capitalizing a title only when it immediately precedes the name of the title holder and otherwise not capitalizing. --Coolcaesar (talk) 17:37, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. This is English, not German, and moreover it's not Benjamin Franklin's English, either. Moreover, I don't support capitalizing a title like "president" when referring to a specific person, because that's a distinction without a difference, and one that is entirely missed by any user who has impaired sight or otherwise isn't using their eyes to take in this information. I only note that last because it was raised by other editors, not to suggest a change at this time.~TPW 18:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I assumed that foreign language like Führer for Adolf Hitler. In full, Hitler officially styled himself der Führer und Reichskanzler (the Leader and Chancellor of the Reich) does not assume per MOS:JOBTITLE. --2001:4451:8272:C000:284C:2E39:ABD0:3DEA (talk) 11:56, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Neither of those are complete sentences, and it's entirely unclear what you are trying to convey. Probably not relevant anyway, since Führer is a German noun, and German nouns are always capitalized.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  12:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Ethnicity

It seems that the ethnicity section needs more elaboration. There are missing gaps in the policy; how do we reference people that lived in empires? How do we reference people that lived in abstract geographic regions in past times when no political entity existed? It wouldn't make sense to remove any ethnic/geographic reference from the lede.

Checking a number of Wikipedia biographies reveals this inconsistency: Niccolò Machiavelli, Leonardo da Vinci and Galileo Galilei would be Florentines instead of Italians; Thomas Aquinas would be Sicilian instead of Italian; Jesus would be Roman instead of Jewish; Aristotle would be Chalcidian/Macedonian instead of Greek; Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Johannes Kepler and Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz would be "Roman Holy Empirer" instead of German; Maimonides would be Almoravid instead of Sephardic Jewish; Saladin would be Abbasid instead of Kurdish; Muhammad would be identified as having been born in the Hejaz instead of being Arab.

A new paragraph should be added along the lines of: "Persons who lived under empires and persons who lived in abstract geographic regions in pre-modern times, can be referenced by their ethnicity or by mentioning the geographic region if this supported by a majority of sources as a notable identification." Makeandtoss (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Maybe. Or maybe we should say not to apply ethnic labels to them, since that's primarily a modern concept.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:13, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

It’s neither a modern concept nor is it our job to apply any labels; we take what reliable sources have described them to be. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The word dates to 1765–75, which is well within the Modern English span. But yes, of course, follow the preponderance of usage in the source material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:39, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Modern word doesn’t mean modern concept. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

You claim, It wouldn't make sense to remove any ethnic/geographic reference from the lede. Uh, why not exactly? For my money there's entirely too much emphasis on this nonsense. Editing on bios of fascinating figures is dominated by arguments over their nationality or other sorts of identity. Give it a rest. It just doesn't matter that much, and it's fine to leave it out when it isn't clear. --Trovatore (talk) 17:56, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. When it's known, it's usually helpful to say where someone lived (e.g. was this an Ancient Greek philopher or a Roman one? Or Egyptian?), but material (often speculative and based on iffy primary sourcing) that delves into alleged ethnic origin is very often better covered in the article body, with sufficient WP:DUE balance.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure, when it’s controversial its better to be elaborated in the body. But when it’s not controversial, I see no problems in specifying this in the opening paragraph if supported by a majority of reliable sources; as is currently the case in majority of biographies as demonstrated above. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

It's one of the first pieces of context one would be curious about. Readers are used to biographies starting with that. As long as it corresponds with reliables sources, this should be included. If reliable sources only say where the person was born, or lived, or became famous, then we can stick to just that. If it gets into WP:NATIONALIST bickering then yeah it is a waste of our time. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, the identification by reliable sources should be used in the opening paragraph. If controversial it could be discussed later in lede. My point is these things should be elaborated so that the policy is applied consistently across Wikipedia. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

When nationality, residency and citizenship information aren’t available, which is often the case in pre-modern times, something needs to be used to contextualize the subject at hand; and this is the case as seen by a large number of Wikipedia biographies I cited above. A greater conflict will occur if these ethnic references are removed. What I am proposing is to elaborate how this identification could be handled by relying on reliable sources. It definitely matters what context this historical figure lived through; especially if reliable sources have given them due weight. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:27, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

It matters a little bit. It doesn't matter nearly as much as some editors seem to think. --Trovatore (talk) 19:32, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

It very much matters to me to know for example that Jesus was a Jew living under the pagan Roman Empire; it provides important context. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a significant contingent of editors who think nationality (and similar characteristics) matter more than they do. They do not matter that much. --Trovatore (talk) 19:48, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

They matter a little enough to deserve a one word mention in the opening paragraph, I don’t think that’s giving these labels that much importance. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:29, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Aristotle would be included in a list of "Greek philosophers" in any reference or scholarly material, would he not? Just stick to the sources. —DIYeditor (talk) 19:25, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, he would be. However the policy doesn’t specify this. It says we should use citizenship, nationality or residency and says that we need to remove ethnic references. What I am proposing is allowing ethnic references if supported by reliable sources. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

• If the question is “should we mention this person’s ethnicity somewhere in the article?” I would say, “yes… assuming we have sources to support it, we should”.

However, if the question is “should we highlight this person’s ethnicity by mentioning it in the lead paragraph?” I am much more dubious. The lead paragraph should focus on what makes the person notable, and often (but not always) ethnicity plays no part in that. Blueboar (talk) 20:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. We can talk about lots of stuff in the body of the article, as long as there are good sources. The first paragraph, and especially the first sentence, needs to be more focused. --Trovatore (talk) 20:20, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

And how would you reconcile that with the reality on the ground, that the majority of articles and editors have given the opening paragraph in the lede, at least a brief mention of their ethnicity? Makeandtoss (talk) 21:27, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Some of it is just inertia and should stop. Some of it is from nationalists, identitarians, or identity-politics advocates, whom I'm going to oppose. And some of it is reasonable — politicians, generals, etc are likely to be persons for whom these things speak directly to why we want to read about them. --Trovatore (talk) 22:07, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

You imply the people who disagree with you are doing some kind of WP:ADVOCACY but isn't the same true of your position? Why do you want to change the "inertia" on Wikipedia and elsewhere which is to describe a person's nationality in the beginning of their biography? Britannica generally does so especially of more recent people. De-focusing on national or ethnic identity is an agenda. How does it serve Wikipedia, its pillars, its goals, or its readers other than to promote your worldview? —DIYeditor (talk) 22:47, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

No. Opposing misuse of WP for advocacy purposes is not magically an "equal but opposite" form of advocacy, it's following our policies, even when we might actually agree, off-site, with what is being advocated.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:10, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The position that biographies, particularly of people who were alive when modern countries existed, should not start with identifying the nationality, is quite a bold position, and seems to be ADVOCACY. Again, Britannica describes Alan Turing as a "British mathematician". Of course, Catherine of Aragon is not given an ethnicity or nationality which would be harder to justify. For the average person, the first thing they categorize people by after gender is probably nationality. That's the first question they are going to have about the context for a biography article about anyone who has been alive in recent history. Whether Aristotle is "one of the most important ancient Greek philosophers" or "one of the most important philosophers of ancient Greece" is not a difference worth arguing over, what is important is that it is established up front.

I think you are right, it is not an equal but opposite situation. The advocacy is this novel idea that a biography shouldn't start with nationality if it is possible and appropriate to the person in question. I think if we just stick to the sources, we are going to find most people described with a nationality if possible. For people who predate modern countries indeed a more nuanced treatment may be appropriate, but it should still be in the lead. —DIYeditor (talk) 23:42, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

For example, from a stub I have been working on, is this an improvement? Is it important? —DIYeditor (talk) 23:53, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes, removing the "Italian" claim is an improvement, because "Italy" as a nation-state and "Italian" as a concept (other than a vague geographical one that didn't correspond to any political or cultural boundaries), did not exist until much later, with the 19th-century Unification of Italy. Calling Ferrara "Italian" is a terrible anachronism. She was Mantuan, which is not an ethnicity but a geographical specifier and a politico-cultural one to some extent (one temporally limited, like being Pictish). The "from Mantua in modern-day Italy" is perfectly adequate and reasonable, without breaking actual history to pander to racialists/identarians. What we call "Italy" now was back then a patchwork of kingdoms and principalities and whatnot, with a bunch of different languages spoken (some of which still survive as minority languages). For similar reasons, Bridei son of Beli should not be referred to as "Scottish".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:04, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok I think we agree there. It is a worthwhile distinction. I'd support something like this being in the MOS. —DIYeditor (talk) 00:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

How to craft the wording is open to some question, though.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:08, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Switching for example from Italian to Florentine and Sicilian at Niccolò Machiavelli, Leonardo da Vinci and Galileo Galilei will set off a huge conflict between editors, especially when no reliable source can be attributed for this label (or if minority do). Although I agree that modern identities should not be imposed on the past, however, this is my opinion, and in no way does that mean reliable sources agree (i.e. original research). I would say we stick to what the majority of reliable sources use. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:22, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

Then according to MOS: ETHNICITY, Adolf Hitler should be listed only as German and not Austrian-born German (even though that is exactly what he is) as he is listed. Also, he renounced his Austrian citizenship in 1925. Zapho653 (talk) 22:59, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

There's a different relevant guideline MOS:BIRTHPLACE:

Birth and death places, if known, should be mentioned in the body of the article, and can appear in the lead if relevant to notability...

—Bagumba (talk) 00:11, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Then it should go for everyone who was not born in the same country they were raised. For instance, the Young brothers (especially George, Malcolm and Angus) are all cited only as Australians instead of Scottish-born Australians (as they were all born in Glasgow), or the Van Halen brothers, who were Dutch-born Americans (who were born in Amsterdam and raised in Nijmegen), but are only listed as Americans. Or is that irrelevant in their case? Zapho653 (talk) 13:27, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

You would need to establish consensus to change that, as it currently says to mention it if relevant to notability —Bagumba (talk) 13:32, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Understood. But just to be sure, in Hitler's case, is there any consensus saying that his birthplace is relevant for his notability for him to be listed as Austrian-born German? That is all I want to know. Zapho653 (talk) 13:36, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

That's a question to ask at Talk:Adolf Hitler. WT:MOSBIO isn't really for arguing out the details of every individual bio article, or there would be thousands of threads on this page.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:13, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

"in modern-day [x]"

I found this discussion via "Margherita Gonzaga, Marquise of Ferrara", which I'd arrived at from a search for the term "in modern day Italy". It seems to me that using "modern-day" (or "modern day", or simply "modern") in this way often leads to absurdities. Earlier today I learnt that "Capsian [neolithic] culture was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia"; previously, that "Etruscan was the language of the Etruscan civilization in modern day Italy", and that the Third Punic War "was fought entirely within Carthaginian territory, in modern northern Tunisia". Elsewhere, I learn that the Gothic language was "preserved and transmitted by northern Ostrogoths in modern-day Italy".

I'm old-fashioned, and quite British, but is it really acceptable to use "modern" or "modern-day" like that? There are no Ostrogoths in modern-day Italy, the Third Punic War was not fought in modern Tunisia, and the Etruscan civilisation died out long before modern Italy was thought of. Margherita Gonzaga was born in Mantua, and Mantua is now in Italy, but she wasn't born in modern Italy, or in modern-day Italy. Doesn't the Manual of Style have anything to say about this? Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 23:37, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

It's a common locution meaning "a place that today is (in) X". Largoplazo (talk) 01:01, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I understand how it's being used. I just wonder why it's being used in that way, and whether it should be. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 08:51, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be. It's being used that way because language evolves, words get compressed, and long phrases are collapsed: "taxi" instead of "taxicab" or, before that, "taximeter cabriolet", for example. Similarly, if someone uses the word "nice", we don't worry about the fact that the word used to mean, not "pleasant", but "stupid" or why its meaning evolved. We just use it with the generally understood meaning it has today. Largoplazo (talk) 11:59, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I do understand that language evolves. I suppose my question (and thank you for helping me refine it) is this: has this usage evolved to a point that it can now be considered encyclopaedic? My own instinct is that it hasn't. Britannica, for example, is much more careful in its use of the construction. But I'm old-fashioned. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

In any case where something confusing has resulted from poor writing, like "Capsian Neolithic culture was concentrated mainly in modern[-day] Tunisia", just rewrite it to make sense. This is not rocket science. "Capsian Neolithic culture was concentrated mainly in what today is Tunisia". Likewise, this kind of rewording would fix every single bad example given above. There is not cause for some "new rule" here. Just WP:BEBOLD and fix it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm not arguing for a "new rule", and note that I've "fixed" most of the examples I gave above. But I don't want to waste my time "fixing" problems that aren't generally regarded as problems, which is why I asked the question. I've been looking for a more appropriate place to ask, but this will do. "In what is now Italy" or "in what is today Italy" seem more appropriate (to me) in nearly every case, but this use of "modern" is common enough that I wonder if it's acceptable to other readers. What's intended by it is generally fairly clear. In the case of Italy, we could also argue that "Italy" has a geographical sense as well as a political one, and that Mantua was in Italy, if not in Italy, when Margherita Gonzaga was born there. But that's not the case for every country. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 08:51, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure, I'm just saying excercise your own judgment when there's not a rule about it. I've seen plenty of "modern [Foo]" cases that were not confusing, but the ones highlighted above clearly had potential to be. It's more likely to be confusing when some action/event is the subject, and seems to be implied to have taken place in modern times. But there's no issue with writing "medieval Ossory (modern Kilkenny and western Laois)".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:58, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

If you are going to distinguish between Italy (geographical region) and Italy that is going to need to be clearly linked with no sneaker links from "Italy" to something else. Maybe it would be better to say "on the Italian peninsula" in that article? I made the edit to Margherita Gonzaga, Marquise of Ferrara for illustrative purposes in this discussion, there are two other similar articles I've made of her female relatives (Paola Malatesta and Margherita Malatesta) which are now in two variations (bringing the total to three variations) of how to describe it. I don't think it's that important of an issue as long as you don't equivocate on the meaning of "Italy" or use it in a confusing or potentially inaccurate manner. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:33, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

"Italian Peninsula" also has an article. My own inclination would be simply to describe Mantua as being "in what is now Italy". Or perhaps we could use "Italian city-state": Margherita Gonzaga ... was a noblewoman of the House of Gonzaga from the Italian city-state of Mantua. Jean-de-Nivelle (talk) 10:44, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Mantua was always in Italy. Just because there was at the time no sovereign state called Italy (or, indeed, Germany) doesn't mean the terms weren't used for the areas now occupied by those countries. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying Mantua was in Italy, even if referring to a time before the sovereign state existed. And linking Italy is unnecessary per WP:OVERLINKING. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:32, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

(ec) ExactlyThere are tens of thousands of articles on Italian subjects predating the Unification of Italy, and there is absolutely no reason not to do what the vast majority do, which is just to link to "Italy". Italy was was a well-understood cultural area from Roman republican times, let alone during the Renaissance, with pretty trivial differences as to the area the term embraced. RS use the term constantly without feeling the need to explain anything. There's no point linking to geographical articles like Italy (geographical region) or Italian Peninsula. Really there's no reason for a link at all, as Italy is well enough known. Tunisia and Germany, even France, are rather less simple cases. Johnbod (talk) 13:41, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

How about this for Caterina de' Medici, Governor of Siena. Or should she just be "Italian" since she had a Mantuan title by marriage? Actually I think "Tuscan" is the most correct in this case? My reason for suggesting it was because Catherine de' Medici is described as Florentine (linked thus). —DIYeditor (talk) 23:54, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

"Tuscan" would make more sense than "Italian".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:41, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Two Examples, and Comments

First, I agree with User:Makeandtoss that the ethnicity section needs clarification. That is evidenced, among other things, by two disputes that I am mediating, and I don't usually mediate two disputes about the same class of issue at the same time.

One of them, Marco Polo, really does involve whether you can refer to medieval Italians as Italians, and the specific questions are:

• 1. Can persons born on the Italian peninsula between 476 AD and 1860 AD be referred to as Italian?
• 2. Can persons born in the Republic of Venice between 697 AD and 1797 AD be referred to as Venetian?
• 3. Can a person be both Venetian and Italian?

I think that the answer to all three questions is yes. In particular, Italy was a geographic region, and a part of the Roman Empire, long before the Kingdom of Italy was proclaimed. I think that we need a statement to that effect somewhere, because the issue keeps coming up.

The second dispute is more controversial, and has to do with Sergei Bortkiewicz, a composer who was born in what is now Ukraine, which was part of the Russian Empire at the time. Since blood is being spilled as I write this, we clearly need to be ready to deal with disputes about persons born in what is now Ukraine. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:43, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

The historically accurate name should be used. GiantSnowman 17:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

User:GiantSnowman your statement to use the historically accurate name is useful but inadequate. Both Italian and Venetian are accurate for Marco Polo, since Italy was a defined geographic region even when it was not a nation. In the case of Sergei Bortkiewicz, how do you define historical accuracy? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Except Italian is not "accurate" in this case because it has multiple meanings, and the most common one in readers' minds is the present nation-state of Italy. "Italian" in such a case is confusing and ambiguous at best, and even directly misleading. "Italy was a defined geographic region" in Marco Polo's time is even debatable. We certainly can't have an across-the-board expectation that every reader agrees with this, much less an assumption that each understands that our article means "Italy as a geographic region not a nation-state". There was not even an Italian language in that era, but a continuum of related Italic languages (some of which still separately survive). The idea that what we now call Italy had a consistent culture throughout it and that people living in it thought of themselves as Italians is highly questionable and not something anyone has proven with reliable sources. So applying such a label to Marco Polo is not appropriate. It makes much more sense to say that he was from the Republic of Venice in what today is Italy.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:43, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

'Italy' did not exist when Polo was born. So saying he was born in Italy - regardless of what any sources might say - is inaccurate. GiantSnowman 10:05, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: I am only surprised how a discussion about this hasn't been opened here before. They should be able to be referred to as Italian if its supported by majority of reliable sources; while Sergei should be referred to as whatever most RS claim (without contradicting he was Russian Empire citizen). My line of thinking is as follows:

So to identify the problem: it is the presence of conflicting ethnic identifications and the raging disputes around them.

The possible solutions to this: we leave it for editors to decide amongst themselves (an original research disaster as currently seen by the raging disputes and the obvious bigger problem of inconsistency across Wikipedia as evidenced by my examples above); or simply using what the majority of reliable sources have said. The latter option is simple, straightforward and to the point.

The sentence to be added as part of the only solution: "Persons who lived under empires and persons who lived in abstract geographic regions in pre-modern times, can be mainly referenced by their ethnicity or the geographic region only when this supported by a majority of sources as a notable identification." Makeandtoss (talk) 18:03, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Something like that could work. It defaults to the "use the historically accurate term" position that GiantSnowman just posted and which I also argued in the thread above (and which I regularly observe to be our general practice; we don't call Julius Caesar an Italian, but a Roman), while leaving room for this default to be overridden by sourcing. More specifically, that should only happen when a preponderance of modern, independent, reliable sources use not the historical term we would default to but agree on another alternative term. If they don't largely agree on a particular alternative, then our default should still apply, even if it is not found in the majority of sources (if chaos reigns, then it will be our chaos, not one of competing external chaoses). Needs a little other wordsmithing, like "is" missing between "this" and "supported", and "notable identification" not really meaning anything concrete. That's not how we use the word "notable". But the germ of the right idea is in here. PS: On Marco Polo, I would think it would be "Venetian" not "Italian", which is in at least some senses anachronistic as well as unhelpfully (for that time period) vague.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't call Julius Caesar an Italian because the majority of RS call him a Roman. Similarly for Marco Polo, a quick Google search reveals that he is more referred to as Venetian rather than Italian. I stress again that we must follow RS, like we do for anything else on Wikipedia, rather than leave this to original research and thus apply it inconsistently across Wikipedia as it is the case currently. And to stress, we are currently talking about ethnic identification in the opening paragraph, which doesn't negate the fact that conflicting identities could be elaborated elsewhere in the body. Ex: Marco Polo was a Venetian merchant... And in the body: Marco Polo was a Venetian merchant, but a number of sources have also referred to him as being Italian. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

I entirely agree that the answer to all three questions is yes. However, we don't need to say "Venetian and Italian" (any more than we need to say "English and British"). "Venetian" is fine. Stick to RS, per usual. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@Necrothesp: That's precisely the problem, sticking to RS isn't highlighted in the guideline, which states instead that any ethnic identification must not be included in lede, and thus leaving us with countless of raging disputes. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:18, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Some of these people might only be included in a book on e.g. Italian subjects and never described in a particular RS as being from the sovereign state they were born in. —DIYeditor (talk) 10:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

@DIYeditor: Again, also the problem lies here. If we identify people using the sovereign state they were born in, then Jesus would be a Roman and not a Jew. He was indeed a Roman citizen, but the notable identification is that he was a Jew ethnically, and that is only because this is what most RS have used. However, this rationale is not specified here in the guideline, and leaves raging disputes. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:47, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Going by consensus across RSs seems like a good rule of thumb. I think there can be a false consensus due to what I described with some sources being more general and only making a passing or brief mention of the person whose information is being cited, even if when mentioned as the primary subject they might be called something else. —DIYeditor (talk) 11:19, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

"Going by consensus across RSs seems like a good rule of thumb." Again, this is the current situation, and has failed to stymie disagreements. The policy needs amendment. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:22, 27 October 2023 (UTC)

Jesus was not a Roman citizen. In the provinces of the Roman Empire, Roman citizenship was the exception rather than the rule. Roman citizens who were put to death were not crucified. That is why St. Paul was beheaded while St. Peter was crucified. What this illustrates is that the modern concept of citizenship may cause confusion when we try to apply it to earlier times. That is, of course, why we are here, and why this discussion is complex. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough but St. Paul is not called a Roman citizen either, rather a Christian apostle. Again, my argument remains the same: usage of what majority of RS are reporting. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:34, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposal for the adoption of a new rule regarding anachronism

I started a Village pump (proposals) discussion regarding the problem of anachronism in the articles, considering that the articles are uneven in this regard. If there are sources that speak differently about a historical person, I don't think we can use that argument alone ie only RS argument. Because with the will of most editors and some sources if there are any, we can have anachronistic information in the article. Thus, for a certain Roman emperor, we could put information in the article that he was the Italian emperor. The key problem is that we do not have any guidelines regarding anachronism in the articles. If you want to discuss this problem, feel free to join. Wikipedia:Village_pump_(proposals)#Rule_that_will_cover_anachronistic_informations_in_the_articles

Mikola22 (talk) 07:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion at Village pump (proposals) has largely fizzled out. In my opinion, it was in the wrong forum. Mikola22 did not specify what they wanted to do about "anachronisms", so that their idea was a partially baked idea rather than a proposal, and should have been at the Idea Lab if anywhere. I think that if there are any remaining issues that need to be addressed (and I think that they are), they can be addressed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:22, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I proposed to adopt a new rule concerning anachronism in articles. The only place for that procedure is Village pump (proposals). And in that sense I presented the proposal there. Mikola22 (talk) 05:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

You presented a proposal to present a proposal, and the community was not interested. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:42, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Do we want to discuss further? Do we have consensus? Has this discussion fizzled out?

Is there agreement that the MOS can be left alone? Do we need to formalize anything, such as that we should state what the majority of reliable sources say? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Majority of reliable sources can say that someone is Italian even though he lived in the Roman Empire and the Roman era. So most of the sources in this case mean nothing as an argument. As far as I know, the information in the article must be presented in a time context, at least as far as the biography of famous people is concerned. Mikola22 (talk) 06:02, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The specific case of medieval Italy

A specific question that recurs from time to time has to do with people born in the region of Italy between 476 AD and 1860 AD, who are often referred to as Italian, but also often the subject of arguments because there was not an Italian state. Should we specifically discuss either a rule that this characterization should be avoided, or that this characterization is permitted? Robert McClenon (talk) 04:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's just a problem of medieval Italy. This is problem of all European countries, historical peoples, etc. What I know from experience is that information in articles must be presented in a time context. This would mean if Italy as a country existed only from 1860 AD then from that year we can talk that someone is Italian. Mikola22 (talk) 06:19, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The issue here is that there is often overlap between the names of modern political states, and the names of geographical area in which they exist. It is not anachronistic to talk of “Germany”, “Italy”, “Ireland” (etc) in a geographical context - even for periods prior to the formation of the modern nation states of the same name. Similarly, “German”, “Italian”, “Irish” (etc) can refer to ethno-geographic peoples as well as citizens of modern political units.

Context is important. When you say “Florence was one of the most influential cities in Italy during the Renaissance” it is understood that you are using “Italy” in its geographic context and not its modern political context.

There are limits, however. While it is not anachronistic to say that Normandy was an important region of medieval France, it would be anachronistic to say that Julius Caesar invaded France and defeated the French. This is because “France” and “French” are not used in an ethno-geographic sense in relation to Caesars’s time frame. Blueboar (talk) 17:53, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Fictional characters known by initials - what qualifies as the "preferred style for their own name" ?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Moved to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction#Fictional characters known by initials - what qualifies as the "preferred style for their own name" ?

 — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

---

MOS:INITIALS

WP:Requested moves has consistently interpreted the "Initials" section as also applying to names of fictional characters.

An initial is capitalized and is followed by a full point (period) and a space (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien), unless:

• the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for their own name; and
• an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person.

In such a case, treat it as a self-published name change. Examples include k.d. lang, CC Sabathia, and CCH Pounder.

Would the "preferred style for their own name" for fictional characters be the owner's name for the character? Examples:

1. Owner: E.T. for E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, style followed in secondary source
2. Owner: C.C. for C.C. (Code Geass), style followed in secondary source
3. Owner: MJ for MJ (Marvel Cinematic Universe), style followed in secondary source
4. Owner: JD McDonagh for JD McDonagh, style followed in secondary source
5. Owner: O.B. for Ouroboros "O.B.", style followed in secondary source
6. Owner: K.K. Slider for K.K. Slider, style followed in secondary source
7. Owner: B.A. for Knights of the Dinner Table#Boris Alphonzo "B.A." Felton, style followed in secondary source

starship.paint (RUN) 13:37, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• I would support the above in adherence to key content policies, when we adhere to the owner's name of the character, we satisfy WP:V and avoid WP:OR, and we are less likely to run afoul of WP:NPOV because sources tend to follow the official name as the WP:COMMONNAME. However, if the official name differs from the most widely used name in reliable sources, then the official name would not qualify for the exception. starship.paint (RUN) 13:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

  There is absolutely nothing like a "key content policy [to] adhere to the owner's name" of anything. Quite the opposite. See WP:OFFICIALNAME and MOS:TM. And WP:V and WP:OR and WP:NPOV are satisified by doing what a large majority of independent reliable sources are doing, not what is found in a primary source. Making up your mind based on a movie poster or a title card that the trademark holder must be upset about spacing or dot placement in a name just because they style it one way and we and various other publishers style it another way is OR by definition. Bending over backwards to satisfy trademark holders' stylization demands is entirely a POV exercise. And V is dependent on independent secondary sourcing.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• WP cares most what independent sources are doing, not (per MOS:TM) what the trademark holder prefers, when it comes to any style questions. Fictional characters do not have feelings that can be hurt and preferences that can be offended, so the "self-published name change" idea (or anything else derived from WP:ABOUTSELF) cannot apply to them. This initials stylization stuff is pretty much arbitrary, so there's no particular reason not to just follow MOS:INITIALS's default of "J. D. McDonagh", except in a case where a style like "JD McDonagh" is pretty close to universal in independent reliable sources. However, some of the above are not initials, but two-letter acronyms/initialisms, including E.T. and C.C., so the question about them would really be whether to remove the dots. E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial is a work title, so we'd generally be inclined to leave it alone (unless "ET the Extra-Terrestrial" was well represented in sources, too), and thus to write the character as "E.T." to agree with the work title. As for C[.]C[.], I dunno. If the indepdendent sources near-univerally write it as "C.C.", then we would, too. But if they sometimes use "C.C." and sometimes use "CC", we would probably use the MOS:ACRO default of "CC". PS: Googling around, I see some highly speculative claims the C[.]C[.] character actually has an original human name in her backstory, that also has initials of "C. C." (though they can't decide what that name actually is), so that case might be futher complicated/debatable. But only weakly because of lack of any definitive and reliable sourcing at all. Expecially since the human name is not the source of the acronymic CC code name, but just an [alleged] fictional coincidence.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
• BTW, this really is a matter for WT:MOSWAF; it has nothing to do with MOS:BIO.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:58, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

  I moved the entire discussion over there, with all comments, since it's just completely off-topic here.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nothing wastes more editor time than WP:JOBTITLES

Just look at this talk page. Look at the archives. JOBTITLES is constantly discussed. Not even people familiar with MOS understand it. Alternatively, pay attention to Wikipedia:Main Page/Errors: the most common point of contention there is capitalization because mere mortals cannot wrap their minds around what JOBTITLES is trying to say. It is absurdly convoluted, to the point that it does not reflect either academic and journalistic usage or government usage.

To illustrate, this mumble is the only correct way to capitalize per MOS:JOBTITLES:

John F. Kennedy was President of the United States. He was the president of the United States from 1961 to 1963. Before he became president, Kennedy served in both houses of the U.S. Congress. The President served at the height of the Cold War. In 1963, President Kennedy was assassinated.

We will all be spared the eyesore of apparently random capitalization as well as the incessant questions about the intention of MOS:JOBTITLES if we just adopt the style that is almost universally used in academic and journalistic writing, namely:

John F. Kennedy was president of the United States. He was the president of the United States from 1961 to 1963. Before he became president, Kennedy served in both houses of the U.S. Congress. The president served at the height of the Cold War. In 1963, President Kennedy was assassinated.

Only capitalize job titles when preceding the person's name. That's it. No "when not in plural", "when not preceded by a modifier", "when not a reworded description" and all those other conditions that make MOS look like a computer code. Just do as academic and journalistic style guides do.

So, to spare us yet another unproductive discussion about this, I beg your answer to two questions:

• Would a proposal to simplify JOBTITLES have a chance of succeeding or are we stuck with this horrid halfway that none of us actually likes?
• How would one go about officially proposing a change such as this one in the most clear, succinct manner?

Thanks and bear with me. Surtsicna (talk) 19:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

A proposal like this could probably grow legs, since the section in question has mutated over time into a palimpsestuous mess. I think workshopping it here and seeing what the general reaction is will be a good first step. If it comes to a local consensus, I think I would propose it at WP:VPPOL, because the change would affect a wide swath of articles. For my part, I'm in favor of the idea, because I agree the current system is complicated and confusing and produces text that might be reader-confusing (at least as to whether any rationale is at work); WP, like Chicago Manual and various academic-leaning publishers has a default-toward-lower-case or "downcasing" position across the board already; and we have too much of a MOS:BLOAT problem with tiny nitpicks being added all the time instead of sticking to general principles and not making exceptions unless a need for one seems overwhelming.

That said, there are apt to be some tweaks and codicils, e.g. some titles come after instead of before names, so it's really a matter of the title being directly attached to the name, fore or aft. (But then people will argue about whether a comma makes a difference, as in "John James Jingleheimer-Schmidt, Baron" versus "Baron John James Jingleheimer-Schmidt". So, we'll have to settle that. I'm not sure there are lot of other complications; "Kennedy was the 35th president of the United States" but "when President Kennedy was". And "according to Queen Elizabeth II" and "when the queen wrote". One of our confusing practices is writing "king" or "duke" when refering to such a position in the abstract but "King" or "Duke" when used as a stand-in for a specific person's name. While the practice is certainly attested elsehwere, it's arguably not helpful to the reader in any way, and just leads to needlessly distracted readers wondering why the case keeps changing.

One bit of advice: When proposing such changes, it is good to do to a {{tqb}} of what the current guideline wording is, and another showing what the proposed wording would be, so people don't have to try to compare text in two different browser windows and whatnot.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:33, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Demanding consistency via one size fits all simple rules is superficially attractive but cannot work. And using only super-famous job titles like PrEsIdEnT oF tHe Us or qUeEn Of EnGlAnD (random capitalization chosen to avoid bias in favor of any specific capitalization) as your starting examples is a really bad way of matching how job titles are used more widely. Job titles like "Florida Photonics Center of Excellence (FPCE) Endowed Professor" must be capitalized, for instance; no source uses any other capitalization. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:04, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, there are always wrinkles like named endowment chairs. Though "no source uses any other capitalization" by itself is not always a good argument. No independent source, among many independent sources using any other capitalization would matter, but what would not matter would be whether non-independent sources like to capitalize something, or when there are nearly no independent sources to examine, or hardly any sources at all to examine.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:07, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Um. Basic logic. If "no source uses any other capitalization" then it is also automatically true that "no independent source uses any other capitalization". Also, why the fetish for independence in this context? Sources can be reliable for matters like "what is the job title of this organization's employee" without being independent. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:30, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Because internal sources have an overwhelming tendency to capitalize everything to do with the company (or school, or whatever it is). From job titles down to "Staff Break Room". They are not reliable sources for English-language norms, even if they are valid primary sources for someone's job title being "assitant custodian" versus "assitant janitor".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:58, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

FWIW - I try my best to abide by WP:JOBTITLES, even though I disagree with its lower-casing preferences. IMHO, we should've stayed with capitalising. But, I doubt the community will choose to return to those days. GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

• JOBTITLES will continue to be a time sink no matter what we say… because someone will always disagree with it, no matter what we say. The capitalization rules vary depending on a) the style guide you prefer, b) when you went to school (I grew up at a time when it was standard to capitalize almost most job titles, but today that is considered over-capitalization). Personally, I just want it to be consistent within an article. I’m not overly concerned if one article capitalizes where another does not. Blueboar (talk) 17:21, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I understand what you mean. Unfortunately, correctly applying JOBTITLES leads to internal inconsistency. See my examples above. The correct application of JOBTITLES leads to capitalization that must seem entirely random to a casual reader. Surtsicna (talk) 18:10, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

And a side concern is that various editors do care about consistency across articles on such matters, both for reducing recurrent editorial strife about them, and for presenting content that doesn't stylistically veer all over the place from page to page, for the reader. But anyway, having a simpler MOS:JOBTITLES, even if like most style rules it's ultimately pretty arbitrary, is surely preferable to the current complex mess. It is correct that someone will disagree with it no matter what it says (this is true of pretty much every style rule anyone has ever written, here or elsewhere), but we can at least in theory reduce the number of things to object to, while also just making it simpler. PS: I share Blueboar's generational experience, but am nevertheless in favor of downcasing. Just because I was taught to do something in 7th grade doesn't mean it was a good idea at the time much less that it remains one in 2023. Lots and lots of what was taught to us in elementary and secondary schools was nonsense, and we need to not hold onto it as if it's somewhow precious. This stuff is not religious doctrine or a core element of cultural identity.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:17, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

if you want a simpler MOS, how about: never use capitals for any purpose ever. there. done. simplicity is not always best. there is a reason we went from having a single case in classical latin to using mixed cases in modern languages, and that reason is that capitals convey a certain amount of extra information, lost from intonation in spoken speech. information like: this is the official title used for a certain job and not merely the colloquial meaning that the same words would have if they were lower case. "Head Doctor" means the chief physician (or would, if anyone actually used that as a job title). "head doctor" could be a low-level psychiatrist. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Which of the two capitalization styles shown in the sample paragraphs in my opening comment do you prefer? Surtsicna (talk) 15:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Neither. They are both far too repetitively worded. The capitalization is a secondary issue that calls attention to the problem but is not the real problem. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:32, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The capitalization is the issue we are discussing here. You can find these styles of capitalization in a four-paragraph section but having four-paragraph samples here would not help illustrate the issue or the proposal. I am quite sure that this is clear to you, so I am left with the impression that you do not wish to address the issue. That is fine as well. Surtsicna (talk) 16:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

To put it more bluntly, your examples at the lead of this thread are bad examples. One can get the same haphazard-capitalization effect in any sentence crafted to use a proper noun and the corresponding improper nouns in close alternation. For instance, "Lotus cars are cars made by Lotus Cars. Lotus Cars is named for the lotus flower, and Lotus cars are named for their manufacturer, Lotus Cars." Getting that effect does not mean we need to change our capitalization rules for corporations and the brand names they manufacture; it means we need to not put prose like that into our articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:51, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

In none of those instances is the word "president" a proper noun; and the problem highlighted here is the difficulty of interpreting JOBTITLES's random (and elsewhere unattested) capitalization instructions even for short text such as the Main Page blurbs. Surtsicna (talk) 17:00, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Unhelpful snarky silliness like "how about: never use capitals for any purpose ever. there. done." just short-circuits meaningful discussion.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Minor consolidation merge

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trademarks#Minor consolidation merge - Idea to merge a line-item (about stylization of stage/pen names) out of MOS:INITIALS (where the one of the examples is only semi-pertinent anyway) and into MOS:TM, leaving behind a cross-reference to MOS:TM from MOS:NAMES.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:22, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

Initials derived from names with "Jr."

MOS:INITIALS reads:

With initials, it is not necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name. For example, H. P. Lovecraft has that title, H. P. Lovecraft appears in his infobox, and his lead sentence just gives Howard Phillips Lovecraft ... was an American writer ..., without "explaining" to the reader what "H. P." stands for.

Would this also apply for people with "Jr." in their name, for example, D. J. Hayden, whose full name is Derek Sherrard Hayden Jr.? —Bagumba (talk) 08:10, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think MOS:INITIALS is relevant since he is known as “D.J.” and not “D.S.” … This example seems to be more a case of an initialized nickname than a true use of initials (at least I assume that “D.J.” stands for “Derek Jr.”) (Blueboar (talk) 12:21, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

My main question is whether "D. J." should be presented in the lead sentence or not. And whatever is decided, does it warrant some mention in the MOS? —Bagumba (talk) 12:49, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Should likely be in the lead sentence, since it's what he's best known as but is not instantly apparent from what his full name is (especially since "DJ" or "D. J." is also used occupationally/avocationally, from "disc jockey"). Edge cases like this nearly never need new MoS line items (WP:MOSBLOAT!) since they don't come up often, aren't a subject of recurrent "stylewarring", and are easy enough to figure out from the existing rules after a short discussion).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

MOSBLOAT: For the record, it did come up here with edit summary Don't need to add DJ here if it's obvious where it comes from. —Bagumba (talk) 00:29, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Well, it's not obvious where it comes from. Even my 95% sure assumption that it's from "Derek Junior" could be flat-out wrong, and he could have picked up the nickname from DJing at parties.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:04, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

"<first-name initial>. J." is common for people named "Jr.". However, I only came to know this later in life, and I'm guessing a lot of readers might not even be aware of it. —Bagumba (talk) 05:36, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

And it might be largely an Americanism; I've learned the British "Juniors" typically drop the Junior after the death of the father rather than treating it as lifelong and indelible part of their name.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Even its use in the first place is an Americanism; in British English it is incredibly rare. Indeed giving the child the same first name as the father (or mother, I guess) is itself considered somewhat naff and almost never done. MapReader (talk) 17:41, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Go with MOS:QUOTENAME: Derek Sherrard "D. J." Hayden Jr.? Largoplazo (talk) 13:01, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Cleaner markup: Derek Sherrard "D. J." Hayden Jr. .... But it would probably be more appropriate to go with: Derek Sherrard Hayden Jr., best known as D. J. Hayden, ..... What we have here is an unsual case where someone is habitually called D. J. as short for "Derek Junior", so it's really a form of hypocorism (as WP broadly uses that term, to include shortenings), not a nickname like "Spanky" or "Killer", so it really doesn't belong in quotation marks as a nickname.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:53, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

...case where someone is habitually called D. J. as short for "Derek Junior", so it's really a form of hypocorism (as WP broadly uses that term, to include shortenings), not a nickname like "Spanky"...: I think many might stumble on the nuance between a nickname and hypocorism to determine whether to quote or not, or simply mix this up with MOS:INITIALS. —Bagumba (talk) 00:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Doesn't much matter, because someone else will clean it up later if they care, and it's not hard to remember anyway: if it's not something kind of silly like "Thunderman" or "Cheeks", or a weird half-descriptive half-praising phrase like "Wonder from Wolverhampton" – i.e. if it's not an actual nickname in the usual sense, as opposed to a simple name-shortening like "C. C." or "Beth" – then don't put it in scare-quotes.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:48, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

• Just throwing out there that Robert Downey Jr. is often nicknamed "RDJ". BD2412 T 18:30, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

  That's in the same class "JLo" and "WinRy" and "JenLaw" - shortenings made up by fans and sometimes the intertainment press but which aren't generally used by the subjects themselves. Sometimes called "nicknames" anyway, but really a different class of things, and probably not encyclopedic except in some cases to mention but not to use in Wikipedia's own voice.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:27, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Death cause parameter in infobox

Quite a while I posted on the person infobox template talk page to ask about this. I checked back again just now and saw my attempt at a discussion disappeared but an identical one is there now from another editor. Someone suggested to try here. The template doc says to only include this parameter when "the cause of death has significance for the subject's notability." However, it appears this is inconsistently enforced and honestly it seems extremely objective and in some cases difficult to prove. The prime example is Michael Jackson. Can we honestly and truly say one of the best selling and most popular artists of all-time's cause of death had significance to his notability? The death itself, absolutely. But the actual cause? Not necessarily. He's the only one I can come up with that's a good example but I'm sure there's others. People like Tupac Shakur, John Lennon, that were murdered and had their legacies live on partially due to how they died makes sense. Elvis had his for the longest but it was recently removed (I've since added it back). I'm looking to either change this silly having "significance for the subject's notability" rule or make it a little more clear as to what exactly this means. There's a single editor I will not mention by name that has been on a tear over the last couple of years of removing death cause parameter, sometimes for articles that have had it up for years (like Elvis).--Rockchalk717 05:52, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Deadnames of the deceased – yet again

Well, we've had rather big discussions about former names of deceased transgender and non-binary subjects, and we kinda-sorta settled on wording along these lines:

For deceased transgender or non-binary persons, their birth name or former name (professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be included in their main biographical article only if the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person.

but addition of this text has now been reverted by three different editors, so it seems like another discussion is in order, tedious as this may be. What are the issues with it?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:34, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

I have a technical problem: A transgender or non-binary person who already had a gender-neutral name may choose to keep it, yet the rule taken literally says we can't use any name at all in those cases. So I propose to add ", if different from their current name," following the parenthetical part. I believe that just clarifies the intention and isn't a substantive change. Zero^talk 06:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Is that needed? If someone only ever had one name and met WP:GNG then there would have to be multiple references to their name in secondary and reliable sources? But if that is a concern, how about removing birth name or so it only refers to former names? Or any former names?

I’m afraid I do not know the concerns that are leading to the whole paragraph being removed. Mgp28 (talk) 08:53, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I have to agree with @Mgp28 — it's not a former name if the person kept it and it will, in that case, always be true that there will be the name is documented in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person, surely? —  OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 10:10, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Not necessarily if they're notable by a SNG like WP:NACADEMIC. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:37, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the issue here. If the trans or non-binary person didn't change their name, regardless of whether they're alive or dead, surely the name provisions of GENDERID wouldn't need to apply? We would simply use whatever name they used. Of course the pronoun and gendered words provisions might apply, if contextually relevant (eg, their birth name was Sam, and want to use they/them pronouns and gender-neutral terminology), but that's already covered in the first paragraph of GENDERID. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:14, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Currently, going by the text of this provision only, if there were an academic called, say, Sammy, who passed WP:N on WP:NACADEMIC and not WP:GNG, that would mean there would not be multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person. Therefore, we could not mention Sammy's birth name, Sammy, at all. Now, if you see the first name-related paragraph as introducing the rest, it's of course different. -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 19:24, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that this is a problem. When an academic achieves academic notability but not general notability under their deadname, this wording would make it impossible to write about them in a way that makes sense. This doesn't match the cases of academically notable trans people that come to my mind but it seems likely enough to happen occasionally. We don't want our clumsy rule-crafting to restrict our coverage of notable trans people by making it difficult or impossible to write articles about them. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure it would be a serious problem. Suppose a deceased trans person had achieved academic notability per WP:PROF#C1, based on citations to papers published under their deadname. We could write about their work without using that deadname in the text proper; it would appear at most in the author lists within the bibliography, quite possibly only as a last name and first initial. That seems within the spirit of the provision. If they achieved academic notability per any other prong of WP:PROF, their deadname would be documented in the secondary sources that establish notability (e.g., their listing in the IEEE Fellows database). So, the criterion would likely be met anyway, and we could include their deadname (although we probably wouldn't need to). I agree that We don't want our clumsy rule-crafting to restrict our coverage of notable trans people by making it difficult or impossible to write articles about them; I currently think that this particular edge case isn't truly troublesome in that regard. XOR'easter (talk) 00:59, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Does the IEEE Fellows database contain "non-trivial coverage" about its fellows, as the proposed wording would require? It has the fellow citations, not just names and years, but that's not true of some other major society fellowship listings, and I think GNG-purists would discount the depth of its coverage. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:46, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Hmmmm, while paragraphs 2 and 3 of GENDERID apply in different contexts (ie, notable under former name or not) and as such are mutually exclusive with each other, I'd have thought that they're generally read in context with the other paragraphs of the guideline. I can't see why that would be any different in this case, unless you're reading each paragraph in isolation from the others?

In the case of our hypothetical academic Sammy, I would first apply the relevant parts of paragraph 1, then depending on their circumstances (notable under former name, or not, or deceased) apply whichever of paragraph 2-4 fits, before finally looking at applying any relevant parts of paragraphs 5-8. Our article would therefore refer to them as Sammy, as that name reflected their most recently expressed self-identification.

Alternatively, I guess you could add something like who was not notable under a former name (mirroring the language in paragraph 2) or who changed their name. Gets a bit clunky though. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest their former names (including birth name, professional name, stage name, or pseudonym) should be.... Although I don’t see this as a problem. Guidelines aren't meant to be drafted to cover every possible eventuality, but to be interpreted using common sense and good faith. I think it would be clear the wording at the top of this section is not intended to prohibit mention of an unchanged name.--Trystan (talk) 00:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm still not sold on the should be included part of this, preferring may be included instead, but after skimming the last in-depth discussion about this I might have been the only editor who wasn't. As I said previously, I'd prefer for the guideline to allow for inclusion if the circumstances are met, and not mandate inclusion when the circumstances are met. But I wouldn't oppose this guideline addition simply because of that. Other than that, I don't really have an issue with this.

As for it being reverted three times. I guess the only way to truly resolve that would be to have a straight up yes/no RfC on whether we include this paragraph. Is that necessary? I guess we could directly ask the editors who removed it for their opinions, whether they're opposing because it wasn't RfCd, or if there's some other issue they have with it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I definitely agree that inclusion of deadnames should not be mandated.

I would go further on that second point, though. There appears to be consensus on this Talk: page to include that paragraph and there is not consensus to remove it. I think we should treat such removal as vandalism. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 23:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I dunno. The reasons in the first revert's edit summary do make some sense, even if I don't agree with them. There are good faith reasons to oppose this being added in this manner (ie, without an RfC), as this can (to some) represent a substantial shift in how the guideline operates, so I would hesitate to call it vandalism. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:21, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Was this paragraph settled on by an RFC? If so could I see a link? I think as is this paragraph could be read as mandating deadnames of trans people, even though WP:BLPPRIVACY applies to recently deceased people and is a main basis for the current deadname policy for living people. Rab V (talk) 03:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I can see that it's unclear here — while the intention is to avoid mandating deadnames, it's easy to read as the opposite.

Would it be better if we change

For deceased transgender or non-binary persons, their birth name or former name ... should be included in the lead ... only if ...

to

For deceased transgender or non-binary persons, their birth name or former name ... may be included in the lead ... but only if ...

perhaps? — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 13:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I like “may”. Blueboar (talk) 13:55, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't feel all that strongly about it, but various editors do, and have made this very clear. I don't think anyone in this discussion is unaware, from numerous previous discussions here and at VPPOL and elsewhere, going back 5+ years, of the fact that there is a large body of editors who consider former names of long-deceased notable subjects to be encyclopedic information, period. So, if the intent here is to change "should be" to "may be", to enable what's going to amount to socio-politicized editwarring to remove all deadnames, even of long-deceased persons, simply because they are former names of TG/NB people and because the guideline has been changed on the basis of nearly no discussion to seem to permit their exclusion, then I think that is a recipe for long-term drama-and-disruption disaster, without an RfC establishing that the community actually wants wording so vague and gameable.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

of the fact that there is a large body of editors who consider former names of long-deceased notable subjects to be encyclopedic information, period There was a very well attended recent RfC on this guideline, and in the close it said With around a hundred editors responding across these RFCs taking place at VPP, it is obvious that there is a consensus against using the former names of transgender or non-binary people, living or dead, except when of encyclopedic interest or when necessary to avoid confusion. Also, there is clear consensus that a former name is not automatically of encyclopedic interest. Emphasis from the closer.

Accordingly, mandating inclusion by saying should be included in the lead ... only if <conditions are met>... would run counter to the first of our two recent RfCs on the guideline. For myself, changing "should be" to "may be" is nothing more or less than respecting the closure of the first of two recent RfCs on this guideline. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:54, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

I disagree; encyclopedic interest is established by the use in multiple secondary and reliable sources containing non-trivial coverage of the person - exceptions may exist, but they can be handled by WP:IAR.

Further, it will reintroduce issues that would be resolved by the current wording; the current wording will stop most disputes over the inclusion of a deceased trans persons former name, but your wording will only stop disputes over the inclusion when the name doesn't meet the criteria. BilledMammal (talk) 03:04, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Honorifics in infobox headings

While the "Knighthoods, lordships, and similar honorific titles" subsection says, "The honorific titles Sir, Dame, Lord and Lady are included in the [...] infobox heading", the "Honorific prefixes and suffixes" subsection says, "In general, honorific prefixes and suffixes should not be included, but may be discussed in the article", with no provision for including them in the infobox heading. Yet, some prefixes (e.g. "The Honourable") are typically included in the infobox heading. Could the guideline please be clarified re honorific prefixes such as "The Honourable", "The Reverend" etc. in infoboxes. Nurg (talk) 22:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Frankly, I've been interested in knowing why, out of all the titles of nobility and honorary titles in the world, there's an exception for two pairs (male/female) of specific titles from one specific country (UK). Largoplazo (talk) 23:28, 29 November 2023 (UTC)