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==October 2009==
==October 2009==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/WALL-E/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kerry slug/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mega Man 2/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Anarchy Online/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Christie (murderer)/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nintendo DSi/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/York Park/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jack Harkness/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jack Harkness/archive2}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chadderton/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chadderton/archive1}}

Revision as of 19:12, 10 October 2009

October 2009

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009 [1].

WALL-E

Nominator(s): Secret Saturdays (talk) 22:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because this has to be one of the most detailed article on a Pixar film I have seen (the closest to this is Ratatouille, but it's not that detailed). This article is kept nicely and hasn't experience an edit war for a long time (I don't think it ever had an edit war). Bottom line is that this article should be nominated as a featured article. Secret Saturdays (talk) 22:28, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. Even though I didn't significantly edit this article, I have permission from Immblueversion, who has.

The Artical looks fine for a FA if it is worked a bit more:

Oppose

Comment. Please add alt text to images; see WP:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 23:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Source comments Oppose, largely on 1c Again, too many non-notable and non-reliable sources used in a pop culture article. Just about stopped short of suggesting a withdrawal beacuse of the nice shape it was in at GA [2]. What happened??

There's other ones which only meet the guidelines by the skin of their teeth. The film has had major international coverage and to use such quality sources is a pretty much a crime in my opinion.

  • There's major formatting issues, too, but they are largely unimportant in the grand scheme of things. RB88 (T) 22:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Hugo Awards website? You're challenging the website to the actual award? Box Office Mojo has been deemed a relaible source for many many years. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Resources and Their About Us page. Quick question, are you looking at the sources you're pulling or just grabbing every website-based source on the page? I don't mean to be rude, but some of them have "About Us" pages that would quickly answer any reliability issues.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Hugo Awards was a blank page/deadlink. Must have mixed it up with other points I jotted down and the sources bit. The Box Office Mojo page does not establish too much. It's basically saying "look how great we are". Ideally, we need third-party reliable sources using their material or covering them. And I take your comment as a bit of an insult. I went through every single link one by one and scouted all their contact/about us pages. There were other ones I could have added, too, but decided otherwise as I concluded their reliability to be marginally OK. RB88 (T) 22:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • But here is the problem. Some of the sources--like BOM--have been around for years and their reliability firmly established. What you are saying is that either every single article that cites BOM, or every single FAC, will require additional sources just to verify that BOM is notable enough to cite? BOM has been around film pages for as long as I can remember, and it's hardly every considered unreliable for box office information. Especially when it's often cited in the news, and it's own by IMDb, which is owned by Amazon, which satisfies the issue of a major company owning the source and it not being some independent party.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • All you needed to do is provide those links. I said I was open to changing my verdict provided the proper information is seen. Also, it now means that there's precedent so that it does not have to challenged in the future. RB88 (T) 22:52, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • Challenged by who? You're the first person I've seen in a very long time challenge BOM, as its reliability has been established for years. Is there some central hub that provides a list of reliable sources, some list that BOM was never put on? If not, then it technically doesn't clear it from any further scrutiny.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 23:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
              • A central hub is not a bad idea. I do keep a diary with all the reliable entries as I find out in discussion. User:Ealdgyth does the same I believe. So, I guess it won't be challenged by us but maybe in the distant future by some other upstart source editor. Who knows? But at least, you have the sources ready and this discussion to use. RB88 (T) 23:23, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009 [3].

Kerry slug

Nominator(s): Snek01 (talk) 15:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it fullfils all FA criteria. If it would pass, then it will be the first FA article of all gastropods. --Snek01 (talk) 16:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I do apologize if this nomination was a bit premature, I did not know it was planned. As Snek says, this is the very first of all of our WikiProject Gastropod articles to attempt to reach FA status, and because of this we don't know much at all about the process, sorry. Thank you to everyone who is reviewing it for your patience and your helpful suggestions. We will try to bring all of the deficiencies up to standard immediately. Best wishes and thank you, Invertzoo (talk) 19:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I just now made alt text for all the images. Let me know if this aspect is OK now or needs more work. Invertzoo (talk) 19:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it looks good , except please remove phrases like "Black and white drawing of", "Black and white drawing showing", "A line drawing of", "Colored drawing showing", "Photo shows", etc., as per WP:ALT #Phrases to avoid. Eubulides (talk) 23:31, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed all that extra unnecessary stuff in alt text, thanks for pointing that out to us. Invertzoo (talk) 15:07, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, it looks good now. Eubulides (talk) 16:33, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Oppose
    • The only English-speaking country with this animal is Ireland, so why is it written in US English?
That is the most unimportant thing. There is no one British speaking active member in the whole Wikiproject gastropods. I am sorry, but nobody will appreciate this comment, because 2 of 3 authors of the article are not native English speakers. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Find someone who is a first language English speaker. it's not that difficult to change spelling anyway, I've written one FA entirely in AE, despite being a BE user. Also, currently inconsistent - dark-grey in color - "grey" is BE, "color" is AE. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Jim, are you first language English speaker? You have no Babel boxes on your Userpage. --Snek01 (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the text has now been converted to British English. Invertzoo (talk) 20:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There were several "color" missed, I've fixed them, or removed if redundant Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for catching the extras. It's hard for me to see all of them because I have lived many years in both countries, and get the spelling confused. Invertzoo (talk) 15:08, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • All the redlinks are messy, just lose them
Red links useful. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So you actually intend to write all those articles? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. --Snek01 (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I can help you Snek to create stub articles for all these red links. Invertzoo (talk) 01:16, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will start turning the red links into blue links this evening. Invertzoo (talk) 15:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note that red links are not considered a valid oppose rationale (I understand there are other issues here, just saying). Dabomb87 (talk) 03:12, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The multiple red links are rapidly disappearing and hopefully all should be gone in a couple of days. Thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 15:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Image captions should not include the species name
??? Yes, captions of course should include what is on the image. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The assumption is that images are of the organism that is the subject of the article unless otherwise stated. "Drawing" seems superfluous too, and illustrator's name is not needed in captions. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:39, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Assumptions are not for encyclopedia, reader have to be sure. The same is valid for the type of the image. Adding of illustrators name depends on writers consideration/importance, and so on and I did considered rather to put the name to provide interconnexion. It for example shows what researchers were associated with this species. --Snek01 (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Illustrator's name is arguable, but putting article name in caption is unacceptable, for the same reason that it's not used in section headings. This isn't my idea, it's standard practice Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I attempted to fix all the captions. I hope they seem OK now. Thanks for explaining this to us, we did not know, sorry. Invertzoo (talk) 22:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other points
    • Geomalacus maculosus, commonly known as the Kerry Slug or Kerry spotted slug - start with article name, don't bold binomial - The Kerry Slug or Kerry spotted slug, (Geomalacus maculosus)
Bold binomial of the subject of the article is completely OK. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I changed this. I hope it reads OK now? Invertzoo (talk) 22:34, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • Inconsistent capitalisation of the name
Captalization in the text of the article is now unified. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • Not all units are given Imperial conversions
I think those are all present now. Invertzoo (talk) 20:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • Lead section is completely inadequate, nothing on taxonomy or conservation, for example
Of course that there is its taxonomy there. Metioning of protection is added now. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The lead section is now much more complete. Is this adequate or does it need more work? Please let me know. Thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 20:07, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


      • Some more points
    • Taxonomy tells me nothing about the classification of this slug, which seems strange
Classification updated. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I expanded this section, I am not sure but is this more like what is needed? Invertzoo (talk) 01:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added more to it this afternoon, hope this is helpful. Invertzoo (talk) 21:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Feel free to improve phrasing. Thanks. --Snek01 (talk) 18:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the offer, but it's your FAC. If the authors are mainly non-first-language English speakers, all the more reason to get a good copy edit Jimfbleak - talk to me? 08:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Really? If it is really so, then I do not want this my something. Goodbye. --Snek01 (talk) 09:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
User:Casliber wrote, that it is "Clearly written, in good prose ...". --Snek01 (talk) 13:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have gone through this afternoon improving prose, and will go through again this evening. Invertzoo (talk) 20:22, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I went through all the technical sections this evening fixing them up a fair amount. Invertzoo (talk) 01:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Let me know if this is not enough, thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 15:10, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • Taxonomy. Why have you given meaning of maculosus but not Geomalacus? Why is this species in a separate subgenus?
Explaning of word Geomalacus is on the article Geomalacus. I do not know why it is in separate subgenus, respectivelly I do not know how subgenus Arrudia differs from this one. The first place where this infomation should be mentioned is article Geomalacus.
I think it should also be explained here. this seems to suggest that the other subgenus is sometimes given full species status. can that be relected here if that's correct? Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:59, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That source you linked suggests nothing about what you have written. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This evening I put a brief explanation of the meaning of the name Geomalacus into the taxonomy section. Invertzoo (talk) 01:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • You've linked common words like Ireland (more than once, although strangely not at the first occurence), but assumed your readers understand "subdorsal" and "shagreened"
The reader should be familiar with the word "subdorsal". Word "shagreened" is explained and wikilinked now. --Snek01 (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tried to make sure today that wikilinks are now only on the first use of the word. Invertzoo (talk) 20:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to explain every piece of obscure terminology this evening. I hope I have made it a lot clearer. Invertzoo (talk) 01:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • similar to the genus Arion, and other references to the genus, are unhelpful to non-specialists
Arion is wikilinked now. --Snek01 (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Explained that Arion is the type genus of the family, and thus is used as a comparison. Invertzoo (talk) 20:15, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That misses the point. in an FA, you need, for example, to describe the digestive system, it's not adequate to say it's like the rest of the genus Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That you demand can not be expanded. 1) There was never published nothing more about another parts of digestive system of this species except of jaw and radula, which are described in this article in very detail. 2) Even comparison with other species could be original research, because we do not know in which aspects are similar. 3) Describing anatomy of other genus or of other species is out of scope of this article. Imagine that for example in featured article Red-billed Chough is NOTHING about internal anatomy and compare it with internal anatomy of Kerry slug article... --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed div formatting below, shouldn't be used in FAC reviews. I'm confused. If the digestive system is unknown, the sentence is pointless. How can we know it's similar to other Arion, but not know in what ways. Either we don't know about the digestive system, and the sentence should go (as you point out, it's not essential), or we do, and it can be described.
Your note is annoying. (By the way, the alimentary canal is not the same as digestive system so use at least proper terms.) If we wrote for example: "The alimentary canal of tiger is similar to alimentary canal of lion.", then it is valuable information. We so know, that at least one human was interested in this thing and he/she found no differences here. For example we then know, that he/she found there no special things on this. But the way, these structures are usually not species specific, so this information is sufficient and adequate. --- I am trying to explain it for you, because there will be MANY more things like this in coming many more 60.000 species of not well known gastropods. --Snek01 (talk) 11:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(outdent) saying The alimentary canal of tiger is similar to alimentary canal of lion. is equally useless if there is no description of either, as in this article. You cannot assume your readers are experts on gastropod biology Jimfbleak - talk to me? 17:04, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


    • References "in English" is unnecessary, many of the references are incorrectly formatted esp with regard to italicising binomial and page numbers, and you have mixed cite and citation templates - you must stick to one style.
Mentioning English in references removed. That one italicization is removed. All is unified. --Snek01 (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Refs 1,4,8,9, 13, 16, 18 have binomial incorrectly italicised, several non-English references have the language repeated, what's the date of 15, ref 17 has pp. 15 pp., page 12, at least three different date formats used - this is all obvious stuff that should have been addressed before FAC Jimfbleak - talk to me?
Yes, that is OK, according to the guidelines the titles shoudl not be italicized. That is not against rules to have marked non-English references like this. The template does not allow to do it promptly with the template only, how to do it? Dates formats are now unified. --Snek01 (talk) 13:16, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand, it is the binomial name that needs italics in the refs, not the title. You don't need both "(Spanish)" and "in Spanish" in the same ref. problems with refs 15 and 17 also still not addressed Jimfbleak - talk to me? 06:39, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is not chosen standard for bibliographic referencing on wikipedia. Binomial names in titles of journal articles could be italicized, but this is not mentioned in guidelines(!) - so you can not demand this unless it will appear in guidelines. But what to do with binomial names in titles of books, which whole titles of books are already italicized? Is it OK? If there is not unification in guidelines, then you can not demand unification in articles. So do not bother with this in the article. The only demand for references is to be "consistently formated". If there are not rules how, then any chosen consistent formating is OK. --Snek01 (talk) 12:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If a binomial is in text which is already italicised, like a book title, the binomial is in Roman. This is standard writing technique for showing italics within text that is italicised for other reasons. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 16:59, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --Snek01 (talk) 10:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


      • arbitrary break
Sorry to come in a bit late in this process, I did not know it was going on until last night. I have now done the following improvements:
1. Enlarged the intro, to include all the topics covered in the article.
2. Given one first sweep through the whole article itself improving the prose and clarifying.
3. Added an "alt text" to all the photos except for the taxobox one which already had it. (I have never done alt text before so I hope these are good enough.)
4. Added more imperial measurements to match metric measurements as needed.
I hope to do more improvements soon. Invertzoo (talk) 19:04, 2 October 2009 (UTC) Added one.Invertzoo (talk) 19:25, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


In my opinion, the prose needs some work to bring it up to a "professional standard", and the article needs a MOS overhaul. I'm more inclined to give it a copyedit myself than list every detail that needs to be fixed here, if that's alright with the noms. That can be undertaken later, after some issues with the content listed below are addressed: Sasata (talk)

I would certainly welcome some help with copyediting, thanks very much for the offer. Invertzoo (talk) 15:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "William Andrews sent material he had found ..." Who is William Andrews?
OK, explanied. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "Geomalacus maculosus is the only species in the subgenus Geomalacus. " How about a sentence to explain what distinguishes what characterizes subgenus Geomalacus?
This should be in Geomalacus article. The same question is written above. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will try to fix this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "Kerry slugs can also elongate themselves within crevices up to 12 cm (4.8 in).[4] Because of this, Kerney (1983)[5] gives slightly different measurements for the species: 6–9 cm (2.4–3.6 in)." Does the source actually say that the different measurements is due to this "crevice elongation factor", or is this your interpretation of the differing measurements? As a bystander I would guess that the slightly different measurements are just due to sampling randomness.
It seems to be OK by me, but feel free to verify it in the reference. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I fixed this problem now, let me know if it does not seem OK yet. Invertzoo (talk) 15:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "The body is glossy, covered on each side..." Side meaning left and right side?
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "longitudinal rows of polygonal granulations." what's a granulation?
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • re: subdorsal... I had to look it up.
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "The shield is about a third of the length..." This is the first mention that's made of a shield; could use a few words to explain its general function in slugs.
No, this is an well know feature like eyes or an head. This could be wikilinked to a slug article, but there is nothing about it yet. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "....it is very pale and somewhat expanded, with indistinct lineolation." eh?
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "... and bearing the usual eye-specks at their summits." are eye-specks eyes?
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "The internal shell resembles that of land slugs of the genus Limax." I'm confused, these slugs have a shell on the inside?
Yes, do not be confused. A reader reading this have to know that Limax have an internal shell (or a reader can use a wikilink to read more) in the same was as a reader reading about birds have to know, that wings are used to fly. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "...and with the nucleus near the front." the nucleus?
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "... but with a projecting granular film in front." huh?
Fixed this. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • What is the function of the suprapedal gland and Semper's organ?
Wikilinked to newly made articles. --Snek01 (talk) 08:13, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • The entire internal anatomy section is rather dense and difficult to follow for this non-specialist. Take for example the following sentence: "The pharyngeal retractor is, as usual, furcate for attachment to the rear of the buccal bulb, its root being fixed on the right side of the body, just behind the point of fixation of the right tentacular muscle." This is characteristic of the section as whole, and indicates that work is needed to make the prose more accessible to a general audience.
Tried to fix this up last night. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • The behaviour section seems terse... is there nothing more that can be said about the slug's behaviour? Why are Irish slugs more active during overcast days? Are Spanish slugs not also active during overcast days? Does it interrupt their siesta?
Funny, yes it's a siesta thing. Actually I tried to make this section clearer last night. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Yes, you are right, there is more known to its behaviour. There is more details about mating in Platts & Speight (1988), but User:Casliber have comptelly removed this information(!) [4] and he in the process of so called rewording or improving the phrasing replaced "Eggs are deposited" with "Breeding occurs". There is completelly need no knowledge about the language and everybody can see, that such changes are devastating for the article. EVERYBODY SHOULD TRY TO CONSIDER WHAT IS IMPORTANT FOR THE encyclopedic ARTICLE. IF IT'S FACTS SHOULD BE WRITTEN AS EXACTLY AS POSSIBLE OR IF IT SHOULD BE WRITTEN IN THE SMOOTH PROSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If nobody from reviewers knows nothing about the subject of the article, then the review is completelly useless, because it will not help to improve the article at all. Reviewers can add such pitiful details like wikilinks or formats of references by themselves, because they can improve any other things. If this change: "In Spain, always low number of individuals were observed on numerous localities." -> "In Spain, individuals were never observed in numbers on numerous localities." is the best what can one of recommended English speakers and recommended FAC reviewers do, that there is no need no FAC process and not GA nominee, because articles can be improved more easily and more preciselly without these processes. --Snek01 (talk) 21:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Snek, don't get frustrated. The people who don't know a lot about your subject who can make constructive comments that you — as an expert —won't have considered. You know what all these organs and structures and behaviors are. Most reviewers don't. Many readers won't. And if your article is too difficult to read, with too many things they can't understand, they'll give up. And that's not good for anybody: the reader, WP, the project... Don't assume that people who don't know things don't WANT to know these things. Add a brief sentence or two (or link them to the appropriate article) to help them understand! MeegsC | Talk 13:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, errorneous edits made by a reviewer were corrected. --Snek01 (talk) 14:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say one of those edits was made by me Snek, so I apologize, in trying to make it clearer I altered the meaning, I apologize. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "This species has an unusual defensive behaviour" Why is this unusual? Wouldn't one expect a slug to contract and curl up when threatened?
LOL, yes, this is unusual. Slugs and snails contract a little when they are in danger, but only this one species contracts in a ball. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you are right. Expanded and explained. There could be possible to avoid the word "uncommon" if we could find out a reference mentioning that this is "unique" feature or that it is only in this species worldwide. I have found only reference for Ireland and for Arionidae. It will be tough or impossible to find this. --Snek01 (talk) 10:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to make this section much clearer. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "opalescent - link or define
OK, linked. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • "Climate change will probably affect the Iberian populations more seriously." Why?
It is well known, that the slugs require humid conditions. That is not necessary to write. This is in detail described in the ecology section also. Feel free to read these two sentences directly in the reference and try to suggest a better formulation of this highly controversial theme. It is in the raference written very carefully already. --Snek01 (talk) 21:14, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to make this clearer today. Hope this reads OK now. Invertzoo (talk) 21:03, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


No, it is not. --Snek01 (talk) 11:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is. The image's description says My name (Bernd Haynold) must be clearly visible close to the picture. And it's not. So it's currently in violation of its licensing agreement! You'll either need to find another picture, or add his name somehow. And since WP doesn't tend to use watermarked pictures, or those with the photographer's name in the caption, you will probably have to find another picture. MeegsC | Talk 13:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Today's featured article has a caption attribution. Though I consider them borderline excessive, I see no reason one can't be added. --an odd name 11:15, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I see this has been fixed now. Invertzoo (talk) 19:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]



  • Comment I've made these changes They are a start to cleaning up the references, mainly removing repeated language links and italicising genus and species. I did'nt do anything with the citation-style refs since they should be replaced by cite-style. Only one style per article please. Also note that although the text from Taylor is out of copyright, and may be used, it may not necessarily be considered as outstanding prose. Jimfbleak - talk to me? 12:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have tried to improve Taylor's prose a little. Invertzoo (talk) 15:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comments -
  • Current refs 3 and 17 (the Conservation Status Assement report...) the publisher is actually the National Parks and Wildlife Service of Ireland, right? That should be listed instead, as what is currently listed is the "work" the source is contained in.
  • Please spell out abbreviations in the references .. I noted "EUNIS" which is totally opaque to the non-specialist.
  • Current ref 18 (Checklist...) lacks a publisher
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All these three references tasks fixed. --Snek01 (talk) 22:28, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Where exactly in the toolbox are they to be found? Thanks, Invertzoo (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The first link, which says "Disambig links". Dabomb87 (talk) 21:50, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. --Snek01 (talk) 22:54, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Archiving note: this is an excellent start for the Project's first FAC, but there is enough going on here that the FAC will have a better chance at promotion if it is brought back, fresh, in a week or two. Good luck! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009 [5].

Mega Man 2

Nominator(s): Lumaga (talk) 00:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I feel the article meets the featured article criteria. It is a well cited and comprehensive account of one of Capcom's best selling games. The primary editors have made great strides bringing this article up to A-class, and I feel that it deserves FA status. Lumaga (talk) 00:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In response to the reliability of the three sources:
  • I concede that Siliconera is not the best video game source as far as meeting WP:RS, but the page used in the article is an interview with a developer of one the Mega Man games. I believe the developer certainly meets WP:SPS. The interview was also duplicated on video game website Gamasutra, a video game developer-oriented website that serves as the online sister publication to the print magazine Game Developer.
  • In this case, I'd rather see a slightly more reputable source putting out the interview, even if at second hand. Even if we used the original, we'd be indirectly relying on the fact that Gamasutra reprinted it to make a borderline reliable source reliable enough. The only concern would be if Gamasutra didn't have permission to reproduce the information... Ealdgyth - Talk 20:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the dead link with an archived one. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:06, 28 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Done Lumaga (talk) 03:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Coment: I really think there should be a picture and description of the end of the game when Wiley turns into an alien after being partially defeated. This is an important part of the game. —mako๛ 04:53, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I would be against adding an image, it wouldn't aide to the readers' understanding. I don't like the image of the teleporters either. Adding text the way you described would be misleading. Wily doesn't turn into an alien; he operates a holographic projector to pose as an alien. Jay32183 (talk) 07:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree an alien image is not really needed. Very few references even mentioned it and I think further highlighting it would be undue weight. Of all the images, I agree the teleporter image is the weakest. If you think it should go, feel free to remove it. Also, File:Megaman2 box.jpg should be reduced in size. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]
  • Comments I'm inclined to oppose based on what I've read. I don't think the prose is not up to 1a level yet. Also, the development section is rather thin. Some examples:
    • "and in North America and Europe the following years." Years? What does that mean? '89 and '90?
    • "Critics focused on the audio-visuals and gameplay, and commented that it was an improvement over the first game." Sentence structure is more awkward than it needs to be. Tighten it (something like "critics praised the audio-visuals and gameplay as an improvement over the first game").
    • "Mega Man 2 has received high praise by many publications as the best title in the series as well as one of the greatest video games of all time" Switch to the active voice here, and I think yourself with a much stronger sentence.
    • "began to become more involved in the production process" What does that mean? Be more specific. Also, "began to become"?
    • "Due to the limited amount of cartridge space available for the first game, much of the leftover design elements were transferred to Mega Man 2." I do not understand this sentence...does leftover mean concepts that were cut from the first game? If so, please be more clear.
    • "A second difficulty setting was added for the North American release." Rather jarring to see this in the middle of this particular paragraph...
    • "offered some explanation for this saying that even in 1995" wordy. (why not just "explained that in 1995,"?
    • "much of the leftover design elements were transferred to Mega Man 2." "some design elements, however, were lost in the transition" Can't we be more specific here?
    • What's the timeline in the development section? When did work commence? How long did it take to develop? At some point, I assume the game must have transitioned from a hobby employees' to a funded product, no? TwilligToves (talk) 06:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

TwilligToves- I did some tweaks to address the issues above. To answer some of your questions.

  • "Following years" does mean 1989 for North America and 1990 for PAL regions. The details should be in the infobox, but they are hidden by default. I don't necessarily agree with hidden release dates, but is such detail necessary for the lead?
  • If the details about development were available, they would be in the article.

I'll be honest with you. I do not believe the prose will improve beyond what is already there nor will the development section be expanded further. I'm an above average copy editor at best and I took the article as far as I know how to a number of months ago. I looked through a number of print and online sources (both old and new) and did not find beyond what is in the article. If the article warrants opposition from you, then please do what you feel is necessary. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:08, 30 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Comment Refs mix ISO-style (YYYY-MM-DD) and Month Day, Year dates. Use one for all of them. I suggest Month Day, Year. --an odd name 17:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It should be fixed now. Thanks for the heads up. (Guyinblack25 talk 17:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Found a few more, but I think that's all of them. --an odd name 18:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009 [6].

Anarchy Online

Nominator(s): Sebquantic (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I feel it meets the criteria after a 2nd peer review, and a month of improvements. Its about a long-running role-playing game with a checkered, and I think interesting, history. Gakon5 was kind enough to copy-edit several sections. Sebquantic (talk) 03:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by an odd name

Date formats are consistent in article text and in refs, and it's definitely got lots of facts about the game, so good job. I made some small changes and think the prose could be better:

  • This troubled launch, often echoed by modern reviewers, serves as a juxtaposition to the generally positive critical reception of the game and its expansions. Not least was the Shadowlands expansion which was given several Editor's Choice awards after its release in 2003. This seems a bit long; try This troubled launch, often echoed by modern reviewers, contrasts with the generally positive critical reception of the game and its expansions. Not least was the Shadowlands expansion that earned several Editor's Choice awards after its release in 2003. I think it could be even simpler but not sure how.
Went ahead and replaced this with your suggestion. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why "Plot synopsis" and not just "Plot" for the first section?
This section header has morphed a lot over the last few months. It started as "Story", then "Story synopsis", shortened to "Synopsis", and finally another editor added "Plot synopsis". I'm not sure which one is preferable. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I want to edit this sentence further, but it's unclear if the difficulty is given by the player or by the game's mission system (I've never played AO).
Fixed this. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I may list more above, but consider finding a second copyeditor to look over the whole article. It can't hurt. --an odd name 06:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your input! I'll see if anybody at the copy-editors guild wants to have a look-over. Sebquantic (talk) 16:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To make up for my prior laziness, I'm going through some of the article. --gakon5 (talk) 17:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by gakon5 (talk)
I copyedited the Release, Rendering upgrade, and Free Play program sections. In terms of broad issues, I'm finding that not enough context is always given with regards to when things happen. Some examples:

  • The Free Play program was originally set to last one year, but its length has been extended every year since then as of 2009 Since when?
  • The original four-year story concluded soon after, although it has since been extended. Soon after what?
  • Two months later, Anarchy Online began offering free trial subscriptions, now common practice for other games in the MMOG genre. Two months after what?

I guess that's it for that, but there may be other examples elsewhere in the article. A few other issues:
Release

  • Despite a public beta test that had been conducted for two weeks before launch, the first month of the game's release was marked with many stability, registration, and billing issues. There's some POV in here, suggesting that the beta should have resolved any technical issues. In addition, your source only affirms that the beta exists, and doesn't link the beta and the launch issues to each other.
  • Looks good. The whole "despite x, y happened" thing is POV unless you have a developer who said that. (see Development below)
  • Community manager Tor Wigmostad stated that "things did not go as well as we had planned," adding that the problems "could have been avoided by an extended release date and better planning." Give some context for when this was said.
  • The last paragraph about RP events and player protests feels out of place in this section. I don't know where else it could go, though. Also, it starts with "The official role-playing events", and I don't see where the context is for what these RP events are. --gakon5 (talk)
  • I agree it does feel out of place, but I couldn't think of where else to put it. I figured it might as well be placed chronologically in the history section like it is. Reworded first sentence here, and added a brief explanation of what the events are in the Development paragraph about the story. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Major expansions

  • The first three expansion and booster packs, most significantly the Shadowlands expansion, helped promoted the game to a wider audience. 550,000 new customer subscriptions were created between 2002 and 2004. I don't see where this is backed up in the about.com article linked to: [7]
  • Replaced the second ref for this sentence that got misplaced somehow. There were 150,000 total subs in June 2002, then 700,000 total subs in June 2004. I just subtracted to get the 550,000 figure. Does this count as OR by me? Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • From WP:NOR, under the section "Routine calculations": "This policy does not forbid routine calculations, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, provided editors agree that the arithmetic and its application correctly reflect the information published by the sources from which it is derived." Doing math isn't against the rules, but you can't link the release of Shadowlands to a spike in subscriptions yourself. --gakon5 (talk)
  • I don't know, it just being there implies some association. If there isn't any, then you've got a few misplaced quips about sales data in your expansion/booster section. The last two sentences about subscription numbers and revenue could stand to be elsewhere, although you have no dedicated sales section; most of that stuff is intertwined with other parts of the article. It will make a short section even shorter, but to compensate you could turn the list of expansions/boosters into a paragraph of prose. --gakon5 (talk) 21:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Free Play program

  • The original four-year story concluded in 2005, although it has since been extended. This sentence is out of place, between two sentences about the game's decreased public profile.
  • Most of the first paragraph is unsourced, but it looks like the two refs you do use in the first sentence cover most of this. Sprinkle those around. Also, you need to back up the term "froob".
  • A quick skim through the game's dev blogs and it seems to me like public-facing employees actually go out of their way not to call them froobs, even though it's a common term with players. No sources found, removed it. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other online games have since offered indefinite free play with restricted content. Suggests that Anarchy Online influenced the free-to-play-with-ads model, but you don't back that up with a source.
  • Despite the changes, Changes to what?
  • That works. I was interested in what these changes were that, despite them, the game remained steady and profitable. You may want to add that, despite a smaller profile and the Free Play program, AO remained profitable. Although, that's most likely POV, considering the word "despite" is used, similar to the beta/launch issues thing above. --gakon5 (talk)
  • The source you use there [8] doesn't seem to reference the game being "steady" and "profitable" despite the changes, however. --gakon5 (talk)
  • Added more refs here. Its an ugly string of 4 inline references, but I guess it's needed. All the available financial reports between Q4 05' and Q3 08' describe it as "steady", "stable" or something similar. Sebquantic (talk) 04:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In addition, if you want to say "despite this, this happened," you'll need a developer/producer who said that. It can't be just you. --gakon5 (talk)

Development

  • Your link to IGN about Funcom leads to the game page for NBA Hang Time. I can't tell if it's intentional or not, since the game was developed by Funcom, but makes no reference to the "critically successful" Speed Punks.
  • Godager and many other developers saw the idea as "crazy," and he described the project as "very ambitious". Unlike Anarchy Online's science-fiction theme, existing games in the genre were based on a traditional role-playing fantasy theme. Maybe switch the positions of these sentences. The first sentence doesn't explain why AO is a crazy ambitious project.
  • The number of developers employed to the project slowly increased, reaching "over 70" by its release date. Increased from what?
  • The game software uses a system named "Sample-based Interactive Music", in which samples -short clips of music- are mixed together to form the continuous soundtrack. named → known as, the continuous → a continuous; use proper dashes (WP:DASH); I would say the system creates background music, not a soundtrack.
  • The Gamasutra article about the music of AO you link to does not reference the term "Sample-based Interactive Music".
  • Sorry, didn't see that. The second sentence in that paragraph needs rewording, though. --gakon5 (talk)
  • Also, if the game's music is dynamically generated, what does it mean that Morten Sørlie, etc. composed it? Did they create the musical elements that mix together, or is there an official soundtrack out there as well?
  • Added sentence about the released soundtrack on CD, but I'm not sure if vgmdb.com is a RS? Their "about us" section makes it sound like all the entries are reviewed, and a lot of the Japanese video-game articles the site as a ref (one Good Article), but didn't find any FA articles that use it. Sebquantic (talk) 02:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

-- gakon5 (talk) 18:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's look at the plot section...
Plot synopsis:

  • They tried in vain to fix the problem, but discovered they had gone too far; the planet would soon collapse. If I recall correctly, the Xan were drilling into the planet. Explain what "going too far" means, and why the planet will soon collapse.
  • Their scientists' tinkering with the mutating effects of notum on the colonists in a quest for efficiency lead to huge numbers of failed experiments; these survivors Survivors of the experiments, I presume?

Skill System:

  • I'm finding the same problem with this section I found in PR, and that has to do with skills. I see there are D&D-style Strength, Agility, etc., there are weapon proficiencies, and there's this third group of other random things. And, of course, the game has abilities of some kind. A single-target heal. A crowd control maneuver. A rez. Are these also called "skills"? The reader is left wondering what it means that any class can use any skill, or what "putting points into skills" means. I can only assume the following, having not played the game:
  • Every character, regardless of class, has Strength, Stamina, etc.
  • Each class has a specific set of weapons they have access to.
  • Utilities, I don't know.
  • What are the 83 skills? Are they 83 different castable abilities? Do they include Utilities? Do they include anything else? Do you put points into individual skills to improve their effects? If there are any other terms that can better differentiate between skill types, by all means use them. Also, once you've introduced 3-4 types of skills, you can't just use the generic term "skill", unless it really pertains to every skill type. Example:
  • Any character can access and use any skill. The character's profession, however, provides unique "perks", "alien perks", "research", and "nano programs" that put additional points into certain skills.

Combat:

  • After reading this section, I now get what "abilities" are, or at least I think I do: nano programs. And maybe also perks and research? Perks sound like passive abilities, but I suppose procs can make things active anyway.
  • Combat between two or more human players, colloquially known as "player vs player combat" PvP is a pretty common term, used by many MMO developers. Is it really only a colloquialism (slang) in AO?
  • Generally, this arbitrary percentage approaches 100% in major cities Wikipedia's own page on Arbitrariness says that it is "a term given to choices and actions subject to individual will, judgment or preference, based solely upon an individual's opinion or discretion." It implies that less thought went into deciding gas levels than actually did. It probably wasn't random, since it's used to mitigate PvP in certain areas like cities.
  • This type of fighting can take place in areas approaching 0% suppression gas What type of fighting?
  • Another example are the "battle stations" I had to back up in the text to figure out what you were giving examples of: PvP-dedicated areas. At the end of the third paragraph (or at the start of the fourth), give some context for what you're about to delve into.

Dynamic missions:

  • Can you better back up the idea that dynamic missions are one of AO's most unique elements?
  • Each mission has a visual theme based on its location: the interiors of mission areas involving an alien mothership, for example, will all share the same theme. The second part of this sentence doesn't expand on the idea that each mission has a visual theme based on its location.
  • I don't know about AO, but quests are a core part of most MMOs. There may not be much more to say about them, but they only get a passing mention in this section, and not anywhere else. Perhaps you can introduce quests farther up in the text, and then in the Dynamic Missions section show how they're different from those.

--gakon5 (talk) 23:24, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:45, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Templates should be sorted now. Sebquantic (talk) 04:39, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it has to be "science-fiction-themed". There's a similar glitch in "science fiction-setting"—a type of fiction setting? Please see User:Tony1/Beginners'_guide_to_the_Manual_of_Style#Hyphens.2A.
  • The second sentence is a flow-on and needs a semicolon instead: "This troubled launch, often echoed by modern reviewers, contrasts with the generally positive critical reception of the game and its expansions. Not least was the Shadowlands expansion in 2003 that earned several Editor's Choice awards."
  • As The Guardian's" online style guide says, "very" is usually very redundant.
  • Again, a triple compound is created but not hyphenated: "one-thousand-year lease". Why not remove "one" to avoid the triple? Hyphen audit required throughout.
  • Why is US$ linked? And "US$1 million" would be easier, yes? Why is "AD" linked?
  • Newly-arrived: see the hyphen link above.
  • After 8 years: see User:Tony1/Beginners'_guide_to_the_Manual_of_Style#Numbers_as_figures_or_words.2A.
  • The Xan were "perfect", but "greedy and arrogant"? I think you need to say "initially perfect" ...(?)
  • Why is "peacekeeping" linked?
  • "A billboard in the Omni-Tech controlled game zone"—hyphen issue? You can always reverse the order ... "A billboard in the game zone controlled by Omni-Tech"? And there's another one: "an in-game advertising supported business model". This is a feature of someone's writing style, and should be moderated. Please minimise the gobbledy compounds. Let me know if you don't understand what to do.
  • Are the FU images all OK? I doubt it. For example, is the Omni-Tech image necessary for the readers to understand the article? Is it necessary to have as many images? I'm pinging User:Black Kite.
  • Captions: final period required if there's a semicolon internally. See MoS on "Images".

An independent copy-edit would be good: it's not too big a job. Tony (talk) 09:05, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've fixed all your concerns above. A lot of the hyphenation was removed or reworded after reading your hyphen guide.
Of the five images, The gameplay and billboard screenshots I think are the two most necessary. The first helps illustrate many concepts in the gameplay section. The billboard shot illustrates the concept of Anarchy Online's in-game advertising, which is a major part of its history and has its own subsection.
The two dynamic mission screenshots I think help illustrate one of the game's most unique gameplay features, and gives the reader an idea of how the it was developed.
The Notums Wars box art picture probably doesn't add much, and could be easily removed in my opinion.
-- Sebquantic (talk) 19:31, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't have time to do a full assessment of the article, so I won't support or oppose. However, I noticed that the Reception section was a bit thin. There are a couple of reviews for the game over at the Online print archive that should probably be included. I saw that the article quotes an article that quotes PC Gamer's review out of context, in regard to the "next great MMORPG" line. PC Gamer actually said, "When we say Anarchy Online is the next great MMRPG, understand that we mean it will be sometime in the future — not at this very moment. As the office resounds with the cacophony of angry gamers venting their frustration about crashed games and terrible lag, it’s clear that there is some serious work to be done before Anarchy Online fulfills its potential of being an EverQuest-killer. But it will become just that." You can see this and more in the full review, found in the Online print archive. Also, Game Informer's review of the game is available on their site. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:22, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009 [9].

John Christie (murderer)

Nominator(s): Wcp07 (talk) 09:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it is sufficiently well-researched and provides an informative overview of the subject, John Christie, a notorious British serial killer. John Christie is considered particularly controversial because of his involvement in the trial of Timothy Evans, whom he helped convict and for whose crimes many believe Christie had in fact been responsible. I have put this article through a peer review and had it copyedited by Ukexpat. I believe it would make a welcome addition to the range of featured articles on Wikipedia. Wcp07 (talk) 09:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Alt text done; thanks. The lead image lacks alt text. As per WP:ALT#Portraits it should briefly describe what Christie looked like in that image. Eubulides (talk) 14:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've added ALT text, but it's still not coming up... Could there be a formatting problem? Wcp07 (talk) 09:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. It was a problem in the template; I fixed it. Eubulides (talk) 14:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -

* Current ref 1 (John Christie...) lacks a publisher and last access dates. Also, this is a wiki page (granted, from the National Archives, but still editable by anyone...)

Done. Reference removed and replaced with one which is WP:RS. Wcp07 (talk) 09:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* Current ref 48 (Mary Westlake..) lacks a publisher and last access date.

Done. Wcp07 (talk) 09:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* If a work is used as a reference/footnote, it shouldn't be listed in further reading ...

Done - further reading section removed. Wcp07 (talk) 09:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* What makes http://www.10-rillington-place.co.uk/index.html a reliable source?

Done. Reference and section that it cited has been removed. Wcp07 (talk) 09:29, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:43, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just a head's up, normally at FAC we let the person making the comments strike them when they feel they are dealt with. I'm not going to be anal and remove your strikes just to put them back, but for the next time, now you know. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops, didn't realise. Wcp07 (talk) 21:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No great worry, and welcome to FAC! Ealdgyth - Talk 00:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Slight oppose, but also encouragement:Comments: I peer-reviewed this, and saw extensive improvement then. There are, however, numerous issues still to be resolved, including prose, uncited statements, and MOS violations, particularly misuse of hyphens. I have done some additional copyedits during the course of this review. I have not looked in detail at the later sections of the article but a quick glance indicates that there are similar problems there, and that more work is required. A copyedit from fresh eyes would do no harm. These points rom the early and middle parts of the article:- *Early criminal career: I'm a bit puzzled by: "....when the woman's husband returned from the war and found out about the affair. He went round to her house, discovered Christie there and assaulted him." To say "He went round to her house" is an odd way of describing a soldier's return to what was presumably his own home.

The sources are unclear on whether the soldier's wife was, at the time of Christie's assault, living in a house owned by her and her husband, or in her own (rented) accommodation. Kennedy's book states that she lived in a "room near Rillington Place", which suggests it was the latter. The other sources give even less information than this. I've said it was a "house where she was living" because of this ambiguity. Wcp07 (talk) 03:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • First murders:

**"Following the murder, Christie resigned from the police force at the end of 1943" makes it seem that his resignation was a consequence of the murder. As the murder has been previously dated, the words "Following the murder" are redundant.

Kennedy does indeed suggest that the murder contributed to Christie's decision to resign, because "the strain on an undiscovered murderer of working among men whose job was to discover murderers must have been well nigh unbearable". I've rephrased the sentence to point this out. Wcp07 (talk) 03:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

**"As Eady continued breathing, she inhaled the domestic gas, which soon rendered her unconscious from the carbon monoxide. Once Eady was unconscious, Christie raped and then strangled her. He buried her alongside Fuerst's body in the back garden." These statements require citation.

Done: citation added. Wcp07 (talk) 03:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later murders

**Citations required in second part of the section's first paragraph.

Done: required citations added. Wcp07 (talk) 03:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

**"All three of them..." - "of them" not necessary

Fixed. Wcp07 (talk) 04:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

**"...he had modified" - delete "had"

Fixed. Wcp07 (talk) 04:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

**Another redundancy: "With his last three murders..."

Fixed. Wcp07 (talk) 04:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

**More wordiness and slightly awkward phrasing: "When Christie invited his victims back to his flat, he seated them in the kitchen and would release the clip on the tube and let gas leak into the kitchen." Suggest simplify to "He seated his vicitims in his kitchen, released the clip on the tube and let gas leak into the kitchen."

Sentence rephrased to suggested version. Wcp07 (talk) 04:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Arrest: Can we have a present-day-equivalent for £7.65 in 1953?

There are a number of sites on the internet which offer historical currency conversions. I'm not sure how reliable they are though. Two sites I have used have calculated that £7.65 in today's money is around £143-149, which seems more than one would have expected.
If MeasuringWorth was one of your sites, it has impeccable academic credentials. As to the current value of £7.65, this indicates that the UK average weekly wage for a railwayman in 1953 was £8.94, so the £140-odd update looks reasonable. Brianboulton (talk) 10:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've ended up using Wikipedia's own inflation template, which calculates the figure to £154, so it looks like we're in the right range. For UK prices it references Measuring Worth so it seems reliable enough. Wcp07 (talk) 09:35, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Trial and execution: perhaps "Conviction and execution" a better title? (up to you)

  • Controversy and pardon
    • Convoluted sentence, needs splitting and must be cited: "Christie confessed to murdering Beryl Evans and although he neither confessed to, nor was convicted of, the murder of Geraldine Evans, public opinion at the time widely considered him guilty of both murders, casting doubt on the fairness of Evans's trial and raising the possibility that an innocent person had been hanged."
Fixed: sentence split in two and citation added. Wcp07 (talk) 04:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The statement: "This in turn cast doubt on the fairness of Evans's trial and raised the possibility that an innocent person had been hanged" is still uncited. Brianboulton (talk) 10:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Required citation added. Wcp07 (talk) 11:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have done considerable further copyedits in this section, but the prose still looks a bit untidy, and there are other citation issues.
I have added some more citations to the text. Wcp07 (talk) 04:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*MOS: Page ranges in references need ndashes not hyphens, and there is misuse of hyphens in the text: "premises - both", "Pierrepoint - the same" and others.

Hyphen misuse corrected. Wcp07 (talk) 04:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article has come a long way since its initial drafting. A little more work should bring it to a promotable standard. Brianboulton (talk) 13:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note:I have struck my "slight oppose" on the basis of these responses. I still want to check for missing citations and other small fixes and will comment further when this is done. Brianboulton (talk) 10:29, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional support: All three paragraphs of the "Later developments" section end with uncited sentences. The third of these reads like an editorial opinion and should probably be deleted. It should not be difficult to cite the others. I would like this dealt with before removing the condition; otherwise I think all my issues have been settled. Also I would like to know that the image issues are resolved to Elcobbola's satisfaction. Have you contacted him about this? Brianboulton (talk) 14:11, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm hoping to have addressed your remaining issues and contacted Elcobbola about the images in the next day or two. Wcp07 (talk) 11:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've addressed all your remaining citation issues. Offending sentences have been either cited or removed. I'm awaiting Elcobbola to get back to me about the image problems. Wcp07 (talk) 11:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per criterion 3:
    • File:Christie.gif - Image does not have a verifiable source required per WP:IUP. "New Scotland Yard" is not sufficient; how can date or authorship be verified? License also contradicts the provided information. If this photo was taken in 1940, the pma claim of 70+ years would not even be possible until 2010, and only then assuming the author died the year the photo was taken.
    • File:Timothyevans.jpg - Image has no information about copyright holder (NFCC#10A) and has no rationale for use in this article (NFCC#10C). How does seeing what Timothy Evan physically looks like assist a reader's understanding of John Christie in any significant way (NFCC#8)?
    • File:Timothy Evans Grave.JPG - Image does not have a verifiable source required per WP:IUP. Эlcobbola talk 14:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The photograph was uploaded by Adebarry, a Wikipedia user who has not made a contribution since December 2007. Contacting him/her to amend the photograph licence does not seem a likely prospect. Is this necessary though? It seems clear that this person intended this photograph to be used freely on Wikipedia. Wcp07 (talk) 10:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • There is, of course, zero percent chance that they'll amend the summary if not even contacted. It's not a question of intent. We don't have a source (for self-made photos, usually a statement of authorship) to determine whether the uploader has rights to the image. Did they take this photo themselves, or did they crop an image they found on Flickr or in another source, believing that modification gave them rights to the new image? I'm not saying the latter is the case, only that policy requires an explicit statement. The "source" and "self-made" examples sections of this dispatch might be helpful. Эlcobbola talk 15:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • File:Johnchristie.jpg - minor issue with the statement "Copyright of this photograph lies with the people who run the website". I rather doubt AETN UK existed while Christie was alive (how then could they have photographed him?) and I rather doubt the copyright holder would have transferred rights to AETN. It's better to say copyright holder is unknown than risk a misrepresentation. Эlcobbola talk 15:44, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009 [10].

Nintendo DSi

Nominator(s): « ₣M₣ » 01:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)


I think Nintendo handheld is a pretty cool device. eh, has a camera and doesn't afraid of anything. Except vandalism and link rot, help me check the recent history to make sure I didn't miss reverting anything. :) « ₣M₣ » 01:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Can someone help me with a referencing issue here? Template talk:Cite conference#Cite conference grievance « ₣M₣ » 15:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:38, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bullet 1: Can you please explain to me more about mixing? I'm kinda confused when comparing it to Turok: Dinosaur Hunter.
Bullet 4: Iwata Asks is an interview and I would like to treat it that way instead of using cite web. Is this okay?
Bullet 6: About page What stood out was this "...in 2005 became a fully professional online publication" as well as their acquirement by Dennis Publishing.
Last bullet: I've moved all those refs after ...will differ based on user preference. to avoid repetition, can I not do that because of the ref 65 splice? « ₣M₣ » 20:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
You need to credit the Iwata Asks as published by Ninento, however that is done. I'm not sure what you're saying with the last one. Every quotation needs a citation to a source directly on the quotation, that's a requirement. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:37, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I think everything is done. « ₣M₣ » 19:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
What exactly has been done? Have the Kotakur refs been replaced, and if so, with what? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

←)In order of bullets not stroked-out: Deadlinks replaced with those published by Nintendo, I've used the callsign=(Nintendo) field for Iwata Asks (after what I said about bullet 4 earlier), all instances of Kotaku was replaced with IGN, all remaining fields filled out with ref 59 replaced with IGN [12][13], all refs moved directly onto their respective quotation. « ₣M₣ » 18:37, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

  • Oppose based on a cursory look. I thought some of the statements were a little wonky, so I went intetigating. For example: "Most reviewers cited similar strengths and weaknesses of the cameras. The cameras were criticized for their quality, especially for having lower resolution than that of mobile phones. The DSi's photo-editing software was seen as entertaining by critics, particularly the facial recognition technology, although some considered it a gimmick." is sourced only to [14]. That is one critic, not enough to make such assertions as in the text. Then there's "The concept involved focusing on making the device "My DS"—one console per person instead of its predecessor which was shared among multiple members of a household."; [15][16] barely mention the My DS thing and don't say anything about consoles shared among multiple members of a household. With such extrapolation going on in just these spot checks I think the article should be withdrawn and checked thoroughly. Martin Raybourne (talk) 22:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like remnants of misplaced sourcing after summer copyediting, which was on those two sections you brought up, so I basically moved around some references. Although you did say "for example", I'm inclined to believe those are the only cases. Wonky? Some stuff in there may hint at "Nintendomination", but can be traced back to this page.« ₣M₣ » 03:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
This isn't an actionable oppose unless you say what the article is missing. Please clarify. Mm40 (talk) 00:15, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:12, 10 October 2009 [17].

York Park

Nominator(s): Aaroncrick (talk) 08:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Launceston, Tasmania's main sporting stadium. Hosts regular Australian Football League matches. Aaroncrick (talk) 08:11, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Comments: Does anyone fell it necessary that the history is the first section? Aaroncrick (talk) 08:24, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Reply: The history section should come before the events section. Lines were drawn on paper and foundation was laid before anyone walked on to the pitch nd touched a ball. It makes more sense chronologically to express that in the flow of the article. From a structural (both the actual facility and article layout) stand point, the history of the physical building should take precedence over the events hosted there. I am a huge fan of milestones being represented through the different events but they are in addition to the history. Also, the Wikipedia:WikiProject Event Venues/Sports task force#Structure is a decent outline. I believe the task force is dead but it is still a good resource. Most GA and FA pages I have come across have events after or intertwined with the section discussing the construction.Cptnono (talk) 10:46, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Moved. Aaroncrick (talk) 10:48, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment "Throughout its history, York Park has hosted major pop concerts and other entertainments" - but almost all the examples in York Park#Other uses are from the last decade. I appreciate you have the Ike and Tina Turner show and the Billy Graham revival listed from earlier times, but were there any other major cricket or rugby matches, concerts etc from pre-redevelopment? If it only started to be used for other sports etc after the redevelopment, that probably warrants mentioning in itself. Also, is "the North Launceston" correct as a name? (It may well be correct - I know nothing about Tasmanian football - it just looks like there's a "club" or "team" missing.) – iridescent 17:50, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments -
  • Per the MOS, link titles in the references shouldn't be in all capitals, even when they are in the original
  • Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper. (note that I pointed this out in the last FAC in Feb).
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Copyedited one of the acres should be converted into metric YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:31, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What template should I use? Can't find one. Aaroncrick (talk) 12:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have people made comments about how the nature of the ground affects the play? eg, wide ground promoting flank attacks, windy conditions therefore encouraging handballing instead of long kicks and all that type of thing. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 02:57, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They have, but there's nothing I can find that has been sourced. It's also the biggest ground in the AFL (larger than the Melbourne Cricket Ground, but I can't find anything... I had a book from about eight years ago that had something but dunno where it is. Aaroncrick (talk) 07:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Pity YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 00:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – Haven't read this in-depth yet, but I did notice that a couple of problems mentioned in the first FAC have not been addressed: the use of Google Maps to cite the first sentence of Transport and the use of Wotif.com, which was questioned by Karanacs. Giants2008 (17–14) 22:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Parkin discusses the geometry and how it affects tactics and style YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:07, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the links, interestingly reducing the ground size didn't work. I was going to add this months ago but wasn't sure if it was notable enough. Aaroncrick (talk) 06:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
all you have to say is that up until 2009, it has such ans such a reputation. And then if nobody has said anything since the change, just write down teh scoring stats YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:15, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the change was only for the 2009 NAB Cup match, which isn't really notable. The boundary line has been moved back again. Aaroncrick (talk) 06:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, well in that case, the perception that the geometry promotes turgid play is still relevant YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Did a bit. Aaroncrick (talk) 13:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Aaroncrick (talk) 06:30, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This needs an independent copy-edit and MoS check.

  • "Sports ground" linked? That link-target says "A playing field is a field used for playing sports or games." Do you think it's useful?
  • Try to pick up close repetitions like a radar beam: "Beforehand, only North Launceston and state football games were played. The area was originally swampland before becoming ...". -> "Until then, only ...". (which is more appropriate than the vivid "beforehand", anyway). Consider removing "originally".
  • "Within two years" ... might be just "in two years"; preferable unless misleading.
  • Infobox: "Architect: Various". This is where infoboxes need to be either dumped or tweaked. That wastes the reader's time and enlarges the size of the box, and probably irritates readers. There's "m" for million, and "m" for metres. I think the MoS wants "M" for million, unspaced as you have it.
  • "Australian rules football has been played at York Park since 1923, with other sports such as cricket, tennis, bowling, cycling and foot-racing also staged." The "with" is a trigger for examining whether two sentences would be better, or even a semicolon. Do we "stage" sports? Hope not!
  • What do you suggest we change to? "Australian rules football has been played at York Park since 1923; other sports such as cricket, tennis, bowling, cycling and foot-racing have been held." "Australian rules football has been played at York Park since 1923; other sports such as cricket, tennis, bowling, cycling and foot-racing have [also?] been held at the ground/venue." Or a sentence completely different? Aaroncrick (talk) 07:13, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another issue concerning the linking of ideas in a sentence: "The Tasmanian Government has a AU$16.4 million, five-year sponsorship deal with Hawthorn, meaning that four home and away season games and one National Australia Bank Cup pre-season match will be ...". "Meaning that" is a little awkward; try "under which", which draws a more precise relationship between the ideas, yes? Another niggle: see "Precise language" at the concise MoS. Was this deal struck ... in 2007, or when?
  • You can drop the [,...] (and remove the halting comma) when a quote winds nicely into the grammar of WP's sentence: although Alderman Salder noted that, " [...] Launceston was well known

That's just at the top. Tony (talk) 05:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou for your comments. Aaroncrick (talk) 07:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose – 1a. I finally got a chance to give the article a through reading, only to find numerous prose problems and other issues.

  • "Australian rules football and other sports such as:". Remove colon?
  • Why is there a need for two AFL links in the lead? Anyone interested will have clicked on the one in the first paragraph. I'd suggest de-linking the second.
  • History: "Despite cricketers being in 'full [...] praise' of the ground". This is an awkward structure, and would be better presented as "Even though cricketers were in 'full [...] praise' of the ground".
  • "with the winner receiving $20." This is similar to the structure above, and should be searched for throughout.
  • World War II seems like a very common subject and might not need a link. Most readers will know what that is by now.
  • "not to resume until the 1945 season. The 1945 season...". Very close repetition here. Try to recast the second sentence to avoid the redundant use of "the 1945 season".
  • In this same sentence, NTFA really doesn't need a second link in one section, and it would be good to see the initials in parentheses after first use, to prevent any confusion readers may have.
  • "Three years later, twelve Ornamental tree were planted in their memory." Should it be "ornamental trees"?
  • "The $6.4 million re-development completed in 2000, was the first major phase of developing...". Just having one comma here causes to flow of this sentence to be sub-optimal. I recommend adding another after "re-development". I won't pick out every punctuation use I disagree with, but this is another area that should be inspected throughout, since it is crucial for professional writing.
  • "this meant that almost the entire seating area was protected from the weather." For a better read, consider "this meant that almost all of the seating area was protected from the weather."
  • "The insurance payout from the fire will determine whether the venue is expanded." I assume this hasn't been resolved yet? Both of the sources are from March 2008, so I thought that was worth asking about.
  • On a quick scan of Other uses: Who are the Socceroos? This should be explained for those unfamiliar with the Australian soccer team.
  • Formatting note: References from printed publications (like ref 20) should have the publisher in italics.
  • Reference 48 (update: now 50) has no given publisher (Sporting Pulse).

I must echo Tony is asking for you to do more than just fix these issues; the entire page should be given a third-party copy-edit. Nominators can easily become too close to the text to spot flaws, and a single reviewer can't spot everything. Giants2008 (17–14) 21:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did a second round of copyedit. My copyedits of others' articels always seem to not work :( YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 06:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Issues you've noted are all fixed I think. Aaroncrick (talk) 07:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Spot-check towards the end:
"York Park is an oval-shaped grassed arena surrounded by several different stands"—You could remove "different", unless there's some point in highlighting the difference between the stands (it's not obvious).
Free ad for Gunns, mentioned four times in three sentences; is that everyone's favourite "f... the environment paper mill" Gunns? Forget I said that. "17.15 (117)"—Perhaps I should read more closely to work out what is being converted to what.
"once they [a team] chipped wide out there"—this is a quote; even if it comes directly from a printed secondary source (it's just a ref number, not an explicit "as reported by the blah newspaper"), I'd make it "once [a team] chipped wide out there". That's what square brackets are for.
"the highest crowd since the fire"—so they sat on the top seats only? Perhaps "the largest crowd" (you were thinking "highest level of attendance").
"The stadium's lowest AFL attendance is 12,465, recorded in a match between St Kilda and Fremantle on 3 April 2005." I think "was 12,465, for a match ...".
I've reluctantly struck my Oppose. Is Giant satisfied with the recent work? Tony (talk) 06:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
PS A small point: the panoramic pic (really good one) at the bottom leaks over half the table to its right unless I widen my window significantly. Any way this could be a "center" image? Possibly first in the section, with the text wrapped against the table? Tony (talk) 07:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:11, 6 October 2009 [21].

Jack Harkness

Nominator(s): ~ZytheTalk to me! 14:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that after a near-successful nomination two years ago the article has improved by leaps and bounds. Its focus is on real-world information without detriment to its succinctly discussed plot content and draws heavily on sources from news articles, reviews, creator interviews and academic publications. I believe any shortfalls can be addressed rapidly with the added impetus of the FAC nomination.~ZytheTalk to me! 14:29, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The whole article seems to be made up of really huge paragraphs. You may want to split many of them up for ease of reading. Reywas92Talk 15:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will split up some paragraphs as needed in an edit soon.~ZytheTalk to me! 21:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The paragraph splitting requires some (largely cosmetic and minor) restructuring, which to do properly I'll need a day or so. You can see how that's going on my sandbox in the meantime and I'll be submitting it in one large edit soon.~ZytheTalk to me! 00:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
...Aaaaand fixed.~ZytheTalk to me! 11:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Great article, though I agree with what Reywas92 said about the long paragraphs. You'll need WP:ALT text for the images too. Provided that the citations check out, Support. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 16:26, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I will provide those soon.~ZytheTalk to me! 21:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text provided.~ZytheTalk to me! 00:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, there are some redlinks in your citations where you have linked to publishers that don't have articles. They aren't in the main text so don't look ugly, but maybe you should delink them. -- EA Swyer Talk Contributions 00:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree - redlinks are useful, and whether they are in the main text or not they should only be removed if there is no prospect of an article being created. ϢereSpielChequers 02:25, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can you specify to what you're referring?~ZytheTalk to me! 21:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whitehorse1 (talk · contribs) has addressed this[22].~ZytheTalk to me! 11:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Will identify them and try and find internet archive or newer alternatives soon.~ZytheTalk to me! 21:36, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed.~ZytheTalk to me! 11:46, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments:

  • Adding another layer to the character is a vague backstory which is gradually revealed as both programmes progress. I understand that the backstory is described in detail later in the article, but the lead should at least mention what kind of a backstory he has.
  • What would you suggest? It seems difficult to really go in and summarise what is a 2,000 year fictional history? I think to say it's vague is pretty much all we as 1) viewers and 2) editors and 3) following sources, can suppose.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, I was thinking along the lines of "as a conman and as a hero" ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Uh...ok... ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The character returned in 2006 as the star of the spin-off series Torchwood, where he leads the Cardiff-based Torchwood Three, battling alien threats. , Three, battling -> Three in battling. Also, this is just personal preference but unless the battling is open warfare, I would use "combating" instead.
  • The audience also comes to learn Jack was once a prisoner of war,[13] and was an interrogator who used torture. Are we talking about the auidience or his team here?
  • In "Small Worlds",... Its not clear that this is an episode-better would be "In the episode "Small Worlds",...
  • Jack mourns her loss, now as an old woman. This sentance is confusing.
  • Before departing, Jack's speculation about his never-ending aging and reminiscence of his youthful nickname suggests to the audience that he may one day become the mysterious "Face of Boe" You should breifly describe what this Face of Boe is, like "...the mysterious "Face of Boe, a markably old creature of great age."
Yes really, if one is not familiar with the show they will have to follow the wikilink to find out what exactly the face is (this wouldn't be a problem if there was an image, but from previous discussions it seems that there were copyright problems wih it so ok). ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is a description in the article itself, where said description is relevant. Knowing it's a recurring character revelation is necessary for appearances but the description in "Development" is sufficient enough, I should think! The worry is bloating the Appearances section with trivial/repeated detail.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:13, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • In "The Stolen Earth", Jack is summoned alongside fellow companions Martha and Sarah Jane Smith (Elisabeth Sladen) to face the threat of the Daleks' creator Davros (Julian Bleach). What is the Daleks'? Please wikilink or describe.
    • The Daleks were wikilinked above, with the context making them "an enemy". Won't it be kind of laborious to specify an "alien-mutant-cyborg race"? We know it's in space, the future, and they're an enemy species
  • The next episode sees him part company from the Doctor once again, with Martha and Mickey (Noel Clarke) in tow, having helped save the universe from destruction. How did he save the universe from destruction?
  • The novel also explained that during the events of the Doctor Who episode "Boom Town" (which was set in Cardiff), Jack placed a lockdown on Torchwood activity so as not to create a paradox. A paradox? Of what kind?
  • In a similar vein to The Torchwood Archives but from a real-world perspective, Russell's The Torchwood Encyclopedia (2009) will expand on "every fact and figure" for Jack and the Torchwood world. Is Russel's a publishing company or an author?
OK :D ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • During the first series of Torchwood, the Torchwood website located at torchwood.org.uk recounted some adventures by Captain Jack through... add a "," after website and before recounted.
  • In addition to the paperback novels, Jack also appears in Torchwood audio books, the first two being Hidden written by Steven Savile and narrated by Naoko Mori,[67] Everyone Says Hello written by Dan Abnett and narrated by Burn Gorman, released February 2008,[68] and In the Shadows by Joseph Lidster, released September 2008 and narrated by Eve Myles. Isn't it three then?
  • John Barrowman himself was a key factor in the conception of Captain Jack. Who is John Barrowman? A producer? The actor?
OK, but one wikilink for an important and not-everybody-known person is not enough, I generally think that they need to be linked a couple of times or so. ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The character's introduction served to posit him as a secondary hero and a rival to the series protagonist, the Doctor... I'm pretty sure posit is a spelling mistake :)
    • Posit
2. To put forward, as for consideration or study; suggest.
3. To place firmly in position.
Not sure, do you think I should use a DIFFERENT word?~ZytheTalk to me! 12:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
? I thought it was a spelling mistake. Didn't realize it was a real word :O. I'de use positiob though but OK. ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Really? T? ...OK... ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discussing Jack's brief romance with his namesake, the real Captain Jack (Matt Rippy), academic critics have noted that "The Captain Jacks both share the same name and are quite similar in physical appearance, thus literalizing the homo-ness of the situation. Academic critics? Isn't it show critics?
Wierd but OK. ResMar 21:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See this is your first "serious" review. Whoo that was long. Didn't realize this article was so long whn I started. However once all of the above issues are resolved I am ready to support.

Also, can you do me a favor, and review/vote MY current FAC, Loihi Seamount? Thanks, ResMar 19:52, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I will and I'll start addressing these. Ones not yet refuted will be fixed.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:30, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And, addressed them.~ZytheTalk to me! 12:55, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you still have problems with the article / are you ready to support yet? :) ~ZytheTalk to me! 14:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I still disagree on a couple of issues, but I'm ready to support. Oh and thanks for the Loihi vote, it pushed it into closable :) Cheers, ResMar 20:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the others, to determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Right. From what I know personally, the cites use reliable sources themselves and aren't simply popular blogs but I'll take a look for some very soon.~ZytheTalk to me! 20:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:35, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the lookover. Should I give the RS noticeboard a go on some in particular?~ZytheTalk to me! 19:41, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looking over it, and the RS qualifications, I feel that the websites qualify as reliable for the sources which they provide. For example, the Popculturezoo is a transcription of a Comic-Con interview which they express sufficient qualification to report on. End of Show and Pop Culture Zoo have similar levels of within their sphere credibility. That is to say, they're not Reuters, but they're far above the levels of forums and user blogs.~ZytheTalk to me! 22:03, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave these out for other reviewers to decide for themselves, but I'm kinda dubious on them. FA isn't just meeting the bare standards of Wikipedia but trying for the best possible sources, and I'm not sure these meet that standard. However, that's more for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:21, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think it's a case of scraping the barrel. I think it's more a case the necessary information being reliably attributed. It's a shame that the SciFiWire link went dead but SciFiPulse is a suitable source in its reproduction of some of that original information. Are there any more links I haven't gotten to?~ZytheTalk to me! 14:21, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This is a terrific idea for an article, and long over due. Captain Jack is a fascinating character, and his sexual orientation, and the openness of it, creates interesting plot twists and cultural comments. That said, I've read the first 3 paragraphs, and am finding prose problems in nearly every sentence. Could we please fix some of them before plunging further ahead? in the lead:

Jack goes on to become the central character in Torchwood, ... Jack becomes....
'...hands-on solution to the problem at hand.' ???
the character becomes immortal, a lasting change throughout his appearances in both series.
The popularity of the character amongst multiple demographics directly influenced the development of the spin-off series Torchwood, in which Jack is the lead amongst an ensemble cast. ... and how can there abe a lead in an ensemble?
Jack is a former "Time Agent" Although he poses....Jack is actually...
unwittingly responsible for releasing a plague during the Blitz. Or a plague in London...
matures into an heroic character? how do we know? What makes him an heroic character?
He is then left behind by the Doctor and Rose, who depart Satellite 5 in the TARDIS. The decision behind Jack's absence in the 2006 series of Doctor Who was so that the effects of the Doctor's regeneration on Rose could be explored.[7] Who depart from Satellite 5...next sentence is incredibly awkward. has nothing to do with the story, but rather the rationale for the story, so doesn't belong here anyway. OR, even better: The doctor and rose leave him behind.
The character returned in.... you are in the present tense...returns.
a changed man, Jack became immortal after his resurrection and spent years on Earth waiting to reunite with the Doctor. Jack recruits policewoman Gwen Cooper (Eve Myles) to his team. Confusing. How about...His resurrection by Billie has made him immortal, and immortality has changed him. He has spent years on Earth waiting to reunite with the Doctor who, he hopes, can explain his immortality.

This is just the first 4 paragraphs, as I've said. I think part of the problem the depth of detail you're trying to do, rather than stepping way back and simply summarizing the character. Also, once you get past the initial plot and character summaries, it improves dramatically. Much less confusing, repetitive, or awkward. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:30, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've tweaked the lead and the first part, do you want me to put it on the talk page and you can decide whether you like it or not? Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If the prose does appear awkward then I would like to put that down to attempting to cover broad, detailed content in a sort of general overview. I am satisfied with your edits, although I think saying meeting Estelle "lays the groundwork for future complications" (which of course it does) isn't stated in a secondary source which makes analysis slightly reaching. Apart from that, I personally do not have a problem with your edits at all, and I would be happy for you to submit them to the article to earn your support!~ZytheTalk to me! 13:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
go ahead and incorporate what you wish, and then drop me a line, and I'll reread the whole thing for measurement against FA guides. Auntieruth55 (talk) 13:52, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I'll do this later (I'm not as prompt as I'd like to be because of my uni work). I'm not going to copy your edit entirely because I find it removes some of what I think is essential detail for the reader (such as clarifying early on that the Doctor is the central character) but I think you make some great simplifications that never occurred to me. Hopefully you'll be happy! I should think (and hope) so.~ZytheTalk to me! 14:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments It's starting to look better. A "couple" (dozen?) things:

  • this sentence doesn't belong in the character appearances section, because it's a production decision--it goes later in your article. "The decision behind Jack's absence in the 2006 series of Doctor Who was so that the effects of the Doctor's regeneration on Rose could be explored. Also, it's poorly written. Whereever you put it: Jack's absence from the 2006 series of Doctor Who was a character and story decision; the series creators preferred to explore the effects of the Doctor's regeneration on Rose. if it must stay where it is, please use ( ).
  • ...."2006 as the star" Jack Harkness isn't the star, he is a central character.
  • ...where... should be in which
  • ...became....sb Jack has become immortal ??
  • ...Jack mourns her loss, now as an old woman. this is reaaallllly awkward. Jack mourns her lost youth. (her loss= her loss of her cat, or her handy...) Or he mourns losing the young woman he knew; she is now very old, and he is still very young.
  • ...to the audience ... actually, the audience may speculate, but his reminiscence suggests to the Doctor and Martha....
  • ...they have moved on without him.... awkward.....they have continued the work without him.
  • ...a young Jack (Jack Montgomery) lost his younger brother Gray (Ethan Brooke) during an alien invasion after releasing his hand .... young Jack (no "a") lost his brother... , after releasing his hand.
  • ... features flashback scenes... more flashbacks
  • ...Gray (Lachlan Nieboer), who, after a lifetime of torture, returns with a vendetta against Jack. After Gray kills T and O, Jack is eventually forced to places Gray in cryogenic stasis, and while somewhat repairing his friendship with Captain John, must also mourns the deaths of teammates Toshiko (Naoko Mori) and Owen (Burn Gorman) at Gray's hand
  • ...Jack is summoned alongside with former companions of the Doctor (someone who doesn't know the story won't understand "fellow companions") Or the Doctor summons Jack and other former companions Martha Jones and Sarah...
  • ...to face the threat of Davros.... To fight Davros and his creation, the Daleks.
  • ....The next episode sees him part company from the Doctor once again, with Martha and Mickey (Noel Clarke) in tow, having helped save the universe from destruction. .... confusing... does Jack have Mickey and Martha in tow? or does the doctor? He parts company from the Doctor in the next episode, having saved the universe from destruction. The presence of Mickey and Martha is superfluous to Jack's story here.
  • ...The third series of Torchwood (2009) is a five-part serial titled... I still don't like this wording but at least use the word "entitled" .... Even better, Torchwood's third series (2009) is a five-part serial entitled .... Or In Torchwood (2009): Children of the Earth, or In the five part Children of the Earth, the third Torchwood series (2009)...
  • .....puts a hit on Torchwood to cover a conspiracy. Your 9th grade English teacher would be unhappy. .... orders a hit on

*....Jack is killed in an explosion, but reconstitutes from an incomplete pile of body parts in less than a day..... you've made the case that he is immortal, so he cannot be killed. Jack is blown apart in an explosion that destroys Torchwood's Cardiff facility, but reconstitutes himself from a pile of body parts in less than a day.

  • ....The 456 demand ten percent of the world's children, and flashbacks reveal Jack's involvement in the original sacrifice of twelve children in 1965....The 456 demand ten percent of the world's children. Flashbacks reveal Jack's involvement in a previous visit, in which he handed 12 children to the aliens, on the secret orders of the government. This time, however, Jack will not hand over any children.
  • you've lost an important element here, and I'm not sure if I did that in my suggestions, or not. But the conspiracy has to be mentioned. The enemy is not only the 456, but also the government, which wants to hand over 10% of the world's children, but cannot decide which 10%. Jack, Gwen and Ianto must fight not only the 456, but also the government. It is unclear who is the more diabolical enemy.
  • ...In the final part,... in the season finale
  • ...leavea Earth behind
  • ...Doctor Who, which also....

It's much better though. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Right, I'm going through this on my sandbox right now and and will use this as a handy checklist! I don't think the edits need to be too drastic, actually, as I'm comparing your draft with the current version. I'll announce here when I've done this (hopefully won't be too long) and hopefully you can evaluate whether or not it earns your support! :) ~ZytheTalk to me! 19:53, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hello! I've updated the mainspace with new prose which addresses your concerns. Thank you so much!~ZytheTalk to me! 19:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Linking and a few other matters

  • Some readers may take offence at the assumption that being gay or bisexual is exotic or relatively obscure. I see in the lead links to "bisexual", "non-heterosexual", "gay". Even grade-school children know what these words mean. It's not "dirty" any more: it's normal.
  • I really think we could drop the idea of linking "fictional character". And "narrative", "demographics", and "ensemble cast" are all plain English words our readers are expected to know, too. If a reader barely speaks English, they can use a dictionary or type the item into the search box. Please direct wikilinking to the valuable targets or they will be swamped.
  • After the lead, the problem is not as evident, and most of the links are valuable. I do see "prisoner of war", which isn't very focused on this topic; and "Christmas Day" (what is THAT?). "Executive producer" and "head writer" seem clear enough—do they need to compete with the guy's name-link, which surely explains those items in better context? "Infatuation" is a normal word.
  • There's a link to "heterosexual"; "pansexual"; even "sexual orientation". One such link in the whole article would do, preferably not in the lead. And maybe "Queerness", although I note there's resistance in the MoS to the linking of items without quotations (not a ban, though). "Sexual identity" and "societal views of homosexuality" right down further might be just enough by themselves. But "Bisexual erasure", piped to "dismissed or overlooked"? LGB will mean nothing to most readers; must they divert to the link target? "Toleration" is a normal English word. "Bisexual stereotyping" linked? I mean, we get it by now, don't we? I rather think the article places too much emphasis on his homosexuality in terms of the space given over to it, e.g., in "Critical reception and impact".
  • Ellipsis dots: please see "Ellipses" concerning the spacing.
  • Link to "human evolution" (piped "evolved"): can it be a more specific link, perhaps to a relevant section or daughter article?
  • Some fans were displeased by Ianto's death scene and the end of the relationship, and some even accused one the writers of "deliberately egging on the shippers'."—The "displeased by" pipe is opaque: why not "Ianto's death scene"? "Shippers" is a good link, although you might consider saving some readers the journey to that article by inserting in square brackets a brief gloss of the term (if it's possible to be brief—otherwise not). Tony (talk) 09:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your input. I am going to clean up the overlinking issues you noted and some of the piped links, however I don't think it's a fair statement to say there is "too much emphasis on his homosexuality" [homosexuality?]; this is where a lot of the real-world notability and critical observation centres. It's hardly as if it gets entire sections, it gets appropriate paragraphs where necessary, and is a fundamental trait of the character.~ZytheTalk to me! 09:50, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It may well come over as obsessive. What is the secondary-source evidence that it is a fundamental trait of the character? (More than just one person's published opinion.) Whatever that outcome, the number of links to sexuality-related pages is excessive, especially given that they probably chain to each other, and the repeated references, even in unlinked, are a bit much. What is the big deal? Why don't we run around inserting signs of heterosexuality into articles on fictional characters? Tony (talk) 11:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the sources that are discussed each assert what makes the content notable. In fact, if something specificially about a character's heterosexuality was groundbreaking or commanded media attention in some way, then it certainly would be included. To say that I have "run around inserting signs" of homosexuality into the article is at best, frankly, shocking. The wikilinks refer to unfamiliar terms to the average user. In cases where the words are common English or parlance, or an obscure piped link, they will be de-linked.~ZytheTalk to me! 11:29, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've now updated the article to address simple English links. Occasionally, in one or two cases such as "pansexual" and "bisexual stereotyping" where these definitions are complex, important and/or the wording unavoidable, the link has been retained. The ellipses have been fixed to suit the MoS. I hope this is more to your liking.~ZytheTalk to me! 19:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Provisional Support Zythe, it's much better now. I've added a couple of tweaks using the invisibility markup. Mainly it meant taking a few words out here and there. I think in the lead you don't need to refer to jack as bi-sexual, since you're already talking about him as non-heterosexual... I also agree with Tony that the links are over done, especially relating to the LBG terms. Got to give people some credit for brain power. Once the linking is worked out, I'll support. Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:51, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi guys, are there still any links which offend?~ZytheTalk to me! 19:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose by Moni3 until the following is reconciled.

  • Give me and the other readers who are woefully impoverished of the backstory of Dr. Who some context. The most I ever watched of Dr. Who were five minute stints of episodes from the 1970s just for their guffaw-inducing special effects and props. State in the lead and Television section that it's a science fiction show and define what a companion means, please. What is a Time Agent?
  • Why would he bring a bomb onto his ship?
  • Should this appear on the main page, it should be accessible by readers who are completely unfamiliar with Dr. Who lore. I find the Television section to be bordering on jargon, and an insider's preknowledge of the show and its functions necessary to comprehend the article. I don't understand this sentence: having spent years on Earth waiting to reunite with the Doctor. Jack recruits policewoman Gwen Cooper (Eve Myles) to his team of experts after she discovers them;
  • This too: Jack explains he returned from Satellite 5 to the present day by travelling to 1869 via vortex manipulator, and lived through the 20th century waiting for the Doctor
  • So Torchwood is a person? Or group of something?
  • By the third paragraph in Television I admit, I am out to sea not sure weather to laugh at the article or weep at my own ignorance because the words sound quite funny put together this way without my understanding of what they all mean.
  • I skipped down to Concept and creation: the last sentence in the 2nd paragraph: does it need five cites? Persuade me. If not, consider creating a Notes section. This will clear up the weaselish wording in A number of television critics
  • This sentence is too complex and should be re-punctuated: John Barrowman describes the character in his initial appearance as "an intergalactic conman" and also a "rogue Time Agent" which he defines as "part of a kind of space CIA" and alludes to the moral ambiguity of having "done something in his past" and not knowing "whether it is good or bad because his memory has been erased".
  • Writer Stephen James Walker finds that similarities between Jack and Angel, the heroic vampire from America's Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, have been noted; Does this mean that Walker notes that others have noted it? Or is it a redundancy that should be fixed?

Ok. I'm going to stop here. There is enough for me to oppose, and I tend not to go on and on in FACs listing all the problems to fix. I am willing to assist on the talk page, however, if you are interested in my opinions on how to improve the article. My general recommendations for now are to re-read the article as if you had never seen the show and ask if the elements in explaining Harkness would make sense, and print the article, read it out loud even to yourself and ask yourself in each sentence if what you are trying to say can be streamlined. Make no mistake; I think the article has potential and there are some interesting elements to it. I think it would do very nice on the main page when it gets there. Drop me a note if you wish for further input. --Moni3 (talk) 18:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Refs mix ISO-style (YYYY-MM-DD), Day Month Year, and even a few Month Day, Year dates. Use one for all of them. I suggest either ISO-style (the most common in this article's refs) or DMY (MDY is used more in the US than the UK). --an odd name 19:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Will address. Back at uni now, but will get a good look at soon. The problem with the context has been not bloating the whole thing (a major possibility with science fiction), as well as satisifying other editors' requirements for immense detail, and whatnot. Some of the other things are minor or are correct but could do with being more clear.163.1.167.161 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:11, 6 October 2009 [23].

Chadderton

Nominator(s): --Jza84 |  Talk  10:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Hello all. I am nominating this for featured article because I'm confident this article passes the FA criteria (or at least will by way of addressing any of your concerns here). I've taken simillar articles through the FA process before, and of course, Chadderton has also been through the GA process, successfully. Thanking you in advance, --Jza84 |  Talk  10:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Just noticed that the Harvnb template for ref 31 isn't working. Mm40 (talk) 11:33, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It works fine for me. What problem are you seeing? --Malleus Fatuorum 12:07, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I assume he means the one that's currently ref32 - it links to "Sellers 1991", but there's no book by that name in the bibliography. – iridescent 14:11, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it. I'm not sure where it came from to be honest. There's three other references in there to back up that particular area, so all's good still I think. --Jza84 |  Talk  17:56, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments Jimfbleak - talk to me? 15:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • There are eleven occurrences of "Chadderton" in the lead alone, many others throoughout. Can some of these be lost or glossed?
    • Historically a part of Lancashire would be more in context at the end of the opening sentence of the article
    • Were the mansions actually ancient in the Middle Ages as stated, or are they ancient now?
    • nationally by way, why not nationally and a comma?
    • latter of whom - last of whom?
    • marked by its landscape of surviving red-brick cotton mills lose surviving? couldn't really have a landscape of non-existent mills
    • link listed building perhaps?
    • once marched along it, why the comma?
    • Cockersand Abbey surely an religious institution, not an order?
    • John Ashton and Thomas Buckley of Cowhill and Baretrees respectively better as John Ashton of Cowhill and Thomas Buckley of Baretrees
    • minor fixes
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:11, 6 October 2009 [26].

Interstate 68

Nominator(s): Algorerhythms (talk) 04:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


This was a previous FA candidate a few months ago. I've tried to address the concerns that were brought up then, and I'm bringing it back for another go at it. - Algorerhythms (talk) 04:32, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Alt text is present and of good quality (thanks!) but two images lack alt text. Please see the "alt text" button at the upper right of this review article. One of these two images, File:Circle sign 857.svg, should be marked with "|link=" as per WP:ALT#Purely decorative images. The other, File:Interstate 68 map.png, needs alt text. Eubulides (talk) 06:02, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the "link" thing to the CR 857 image, but I don't know how to add the alt text to the map, as it's placed by a template. - Algorerhythms (talk) 13:23, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Map_alt=I believe.Mitch32(The Password is... See here!) 13:55, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
ok, now I've added alt text to the map, too. - Algorerhythms (talk) 14:04, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  1. The cities parameter of the infobox has been deprecated per a previous discussion at WT:USRD.
    Removed.
  2. The alt text for the US 48 shield needs some work as it needs to physically describe what the image looks like.
    Changed.
  3. When using Template:Inflation, add {{Inflation-fn|US}} as a reference for the inflation amount.
    Changed.
  4. Why are the mileposts for the Maryland exit list rounded to the nearest tenth. The HLR gives mileages to the nearest hundredth.
    I've changed them to hundredths.
  5. Reference 36 comes up as an Error 403 Forbidden. Dough4872 (talk) 16:05, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    Apparently the site I was linking to has disabled external linking. So I've commented out that link. - Algorerhythms (talk) 02:35, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support - My issues have been resolved. Dough4872 (talk) 20:56, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments -
  • Please spell out abbreviations in the notes(I noted AASHTO but there are others...such as JHU Press...)
    I've spelled out all the abbreviations I've found in the footnotes. If I missed any, let me know.
  • Pick either last name first or first name first for your references, and stick with it. Right now you've got some of both style.
    I've changed them to first name first since most of them were already that way. - Algorerhythms (talk) 02:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:11, 6 October 2009 [27].

Effects of Hurricane Georges in Cuba

Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I believe the article meets all of the FA criteria. As always, all thoughts and comments are welcome and encouraged. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:20, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea how to work the system to get those images, they were all gotten by a now retired user. According to the recent FAC for Effects of Hurricane Georges in Louisiana those images were fine. Also, thanks for the images review Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:40, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed it and replaced it with a much more reliable source Cyclonebiskit (talk) 19:46, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:11, 6 October 2009 [28].

The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie

Nominator(s): ATC . Talk 21:00, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am re-nominating The Naked Brothers Band: The Movie; after User:Truthkeeper88 fixed prose and WP:MOS with a copyedit. I and Truthkeeper88 both think it meets the criteria and I am nominating it. If you detect one or two minor problem's with prose or MOS, Truthkeeper88 told me, that the user will be fixing those requests that you make below. ATC . Talk 20:46, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Done; thanks. The lead image needs alt text as per WP:ALT. Please fill in the |alt= parameter of the {{Infobox Film}} template at the start of the article. Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 22:51, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Done, per request from Truthkeeper88. Cheers, TFOWRThis flag once was red 16:01, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that looks good. Eubulides (talk) 16:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All About Jazz appears to be an e-zine with a managing editor. Am having trouble connecting to redherring.com but will check that site as well. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:01, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I deleted the Nickkacapress source as their is already a reference to the same information. Also, as Truthkeeper said, AllAboutJazz.com/ is typed by and editing manager, so it is reliable. Also RedHerring is a news article source and is reliable. ATC . Talk
Do you mean that Red Herring is by a news organization such as CNN, or a newspaper? Also, is All About Jazz actually sustained by subscriptions? Do other sources consider it reliable? Ealdgyth - Talk 11:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All About Jazz does not appear to be sustained by subscriptions, but it does have a masthead. The text sourced by All About Jazz is can also be sourced with this if that's more acceptable. That John B. Williams played in a band with Michael Wolff doesn't seem to be controversial, so if All about Jazz and Amazon are not acceptable I can try accessing some databases for news articles if you'd prefer. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:04, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the information is available here in the San Francisco Chronicle. That's the best source, I'd reckon. Sorry about the multiple posts. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:09, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted and replaced http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=11494 & deleted http://www.redherring.com/Home/22486 as per ATC's consent. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:46, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review - The only image in the article, which is fair use, meets WP:NFCC. Awadewit (talk) 04:06, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - seems pretty solid to me.
  • The band features lead singer-songwriter and keyboardist Nat, drummer Alex, guitarist Josh, keyboardist David, cellist Thomas, and manager Cooper. John B. Williams is responsible for signing the band to Who's The Man Records, the label that brought the group to fame. The film begins with the band performing "Motormouth" at the Hammerstein Ballroom. - fix the grammar problem(s), plz.
Rewritten. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • After watching the media talking about the band's split on television, Nat writes a song about it, titled "If There Was a Place to Hide", and fans gather pleading for the band to reunite. - comma after gather
Done. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good work! ceranthor 00:25, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 17:11, 6 October 2009 [29].

I Look to You

Nominator(s): Lil-unique1 (talk) 18:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because it is the of the highest quality. I have taken personal responsibility to ensure that only the most credible of sources are used and that the album has clear fluidity in its format. The infobox is amongst the best that i have come accross with many articles (it was sourced recording information, properly formatted dates and credible reviews). The lead section summarises exactly what has been achieved with the article.

Follwing the lead section is a background section which clearly sets out the tone for the concept of the album using quotes from Houston. The music section uses a neutral tone to give readers a flavour of what the album contains, how its songs are different to Houston's previous releases. The releases and promotion section explain how the album was not rushed and clearly sets out how the album recieved a lot of critical reception before its release. It also incorporates a very brief summary of the singles. This is followed by a track listing and full set of credits sourced. Charts, certificates and successions are clearly set out, where possible links have been added for the charts. The article ends with a comprehensive release history.

I personally believe that this is the future of what good album pages will look like. It was and is alwas challenging to incorporate the vast volume of information that was available. however with clever headings and a logical fluid format i believe the information is streamlined and all credible & relevant. Overall this should be a featured article for its strict continuity and as a tribute to Houston. Compared to a lot of her previous albums this page offers much more depth and insight into the background, history, success and release of the album. (Lil-unique1 (talk) 18:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]

  • Oppose, suggest withdrawal: This album was released less than a month ago, and has not even been released yet in all territories (for eg: UK, which I learn from the first sentence of the lead). All the same, the article needs polishing, and could do with a thorough copy-edit or two. Also, consider restructuring the article, and removing some stuff to make it more readable. (That sentence that indiscriminately lists 13 recording studios is particularly tiresome to read) indopug (talk) 22:24, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose (mainly on 1b and consequently 1c). Suggest withdrawal. I echo what Indopug said. Too close to the release date and hasn't even been released in all territories. Albums should be left till after the end of the year before coming to FAC anyway, because end-of-year lists and awards are not compiled till then. Also, you need that sort of material as well as long-term sales data to place the article in context. There are other things that I could comment on, but they'll be redundant. On a final note, take it to GAN first and then peer review. RB88 (T) 06:14, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have a look at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/In Rainbows/archive1. The GAN and PR was simply advice. I'd like to get as many album articles to FA, but not before they're even been technically released, especially in a territory of the English Wikipedia. The reasoning is that current events, which this wholly is, should not be at FAC until everything has transpired. For album articles, this means all releases, end-of-year awards and nominations, sales, maybe even tours which could be linked explicitly to it (tours for this could even last years!). McCain and Obama are inapplicable in this case as they born in 1936 and 1961. The election was a footnote in their half-century lives. The release of an album in a major territory is a whole chunk of its comprehensiveness. I stand by my verdict. To use a nice quote from the In Rainbows FAC: "Surely its impact on the music world has not been entirely decided on yet? Let us give the album more than four weeks to have an impact on other artists, shall we? Also, let us at least wait until all versions of it have been released. What happens if a CD release has a wildly different impact (for whatever reason) - that would drastically change the article." RB88 (T) 08:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note that neither previous GA review nor peer review are required for FA nomination. Rafablu and Indopug, can you comment please on how comprehensive the article for what has been published on this topic? In the past, articles have been promoted to FA even though we knew that there were events coming that would impact the article (for the most prominent examples, see John McCain and Barack Obama). Thanks. Karanacs (talk) 17:06, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have made the changes request above. Please review. (Lil-unique1 (talk) 00:31, 30 September 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Oppose, 1a; also suggest withdrawal Lines such as:

  • Davis told Warren, that she had "written one of her great copyrights.";
  • Despite never being official released the song charted at number 25 on the U.S. Billboard Hot Dance/Club Chart Chart.; and
  • Robert Kelly (R. Kelly) contributed two songs to the album, "Salute" is a conceptual song in that it is militaristic, with its marching beat and R Kelly has his vocals featured in the chorus where he can be heard in the background ("Eh eh eh").

are cause for concern. I also fixed a close paraphrase, but the article has enough run-on clauses and sentences and reads in such an iffy way that I suspect there's many more. As Indopug said, give it several copyedits and more time in general. Withdraw it, fix it at your own pace, and bring it back after a few weeks and a good deep breath. :) --an odd name 21:45, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:29, 3 October 2009 [30].

The Ex-Girlfriend

Nominator(s): --Music26/11 21:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


I am nominating this for featured article because I think it meets the criteria. The article has passed GAn a few weeks back and has since been through a peer review and has been copy-edited by one and a half copy-editors. Hopefully, this will be the Seinfeld WikiProject's first FA.--Music26/11 21:49, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not ready. Here are a few observations from the top, which indicate that an independent copy-edit is required. Music2611, I think your writing will improve with practice and focus: it's worth cultivating. (You might consider tackling this page and few of its siblings. Let me know if they help (or don't help).

  • Is there a plain English alternative to "commencement"? I can think of one right away.
  • Why is "United States" linked? Please see WP:LINK.
  • "Later on, however, he realizes" -> "Later, he realizes".
  • "after realizing that he finds her just as annoying"—careful of too many "thats"; here, it can be removed. It's the second "realizes/ing" in three seconds. Remove another "that' bottom of first section. Audit throughout?
  • "The episode was inspired by one of Larry David's personal experiences, and contained various cultural references." Every TV program and movie contains "cultural references". I snagged on this because of that trigger "various", which usually means something is wrong.
  • "at CBS Studio Center in Studio City, Los Angeles, California"—this is a sea of blue: isn't it a chained link? If you click on "CBS Studio Center", you'll get a links to "Studio City" and "LA" anyway (so the first link is quite enough). And in any case, LA is not normally worth linking, like New York City and Washington DC. Same with "Hollywood": isn't it covered by the previous link?
  • "she tells him that Jerry and her can still be friends,"—oops. "to tell George that he his dating Marlene"—is that a typo?
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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