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*'''Comment''' - First, "The term meatpuppet is derogatory and should be used with care." This is what Wikipedia says on its link to the term "meatpuppet". So I suggest that Olfactory use it carefully next time, and stop throwing it around this time seemingly to dissuade others from considering the valid arguments and alternatives that have been offered against his proposed merge. Second, Puerto Ricans and persons of Puerto Rican descent are not one and the same group, for starters because where Spanish is most probably the dominant language for the former, English is for the latter. Moreover there are as many cultural differences reflected in the distinct vernaculars and histories of these two groups as there are between BGLQT Mexicans, Colombians, Dominicans, Cubans, Hondurans, ... Haitians and Brazilians (which the term "Latin-American" subsumes). Additionally, as it pertains to BGLQT persons of Puerto Rican descent, i.e., those born on the continental United States of Puerto Rican lineage, their experiences as a group within the larger BGLQT communities distinguishes their focuses and their perspectives when they create and respond, as Lawrlafo has explained. I hope that those who are voting for this proposed merge bear in mind this reality, and the important need for acknowledgment of this group's identity, as well as read the book, ''The Great Cat Massacre'', which discusses the impact of categories imposed upon individuals and groups by outsiders. Last, it is my impression that Olfactory's remarks and proposal imply a flippant disregard for the sensibilities and differences of the group and groups in question.[[User:Broncocastro|Bronco Castro]] ([[User talk:Broncocastro|talk]]) 15:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Bronco Castro
*'''Comment''' - First, "The term meatpuppet is derogatory and should be used with care." This is what Wikipedia says on its link to the term "meatpuppet". So I suggest that Olfactory use it carefully next time, and stop throwing it around this time seemingly to dissuade others from considering the valid arguments and alternatives that have been offered against his proposed merge. Second, Puerto Ricans and persons of Puerto Rican descent are not one and the same group, for starters because where Spanish is most probably the dominant language for the former, English is for the latter. Moreover there are as many cultural differences reflected in the distinct vernaculars and histories of these two groups as there are between BGLQT Mexicans, Colombians, Dominicans, Cubans, Hondurans, ... Haitians and Brazilians (which the term "Latin-American" subsumes). Additionally, as it pertains to BGLQT persons of Puerto Rican descent, i.e., those born on the continental United States of Puerto Rican lineage, their experiences as a group within the larger BGLQT communities distinguishes their focuses and their perspectives when they create and respond, as Lawrlafo has explained. I hope that those who are voting for this proposed merge bear in mind this reality, and the important need for acknowledgment of this group's identity, as well as read the book, ''The Great Cat Massacre'', which discusses the impact of categories imposed upon individuals and groups by outsiders. Last, it is my impression that Olfactory's remarks and proposal imply a flippant disregard for the sensibilities and differences of the group and groups in question.[[User:Broncocastro|Bronco Castro]] ([[User talk:Broncocastro|talk]]) 15:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Bronco Castro
:*As I said above: ''"It's difficult to inquire about the issue without using the terminology. I haven't stated that you are unquestionably a meatpuppet or called you that—I have asked about the because there was prima facie evidence that you could have been one. It's not unusual for these issues to arise when "single purpose accounts" are involved in relatively obscure WP discussions."'' You should keep your impressions to yourself when they relate to a user's intentions, thoughts, and feelings which you know nothing about and have no reason to have any special insight into. [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 22:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
:*As I said above: ''"It's difficult to inquire about the issue without using the terminology. I haven't stated that you are unquestionably a meatpuppet or called you that—I have asked about the because there was prima facie evidence that you could have been one. It's not unusual for these issues to arise when "single purpose accounts" are involved in relatively obscure WP discussions."'' You should keep your impressions to yourself when they relate to a user's intentions, thoughts, and feelings which you know nothing about and have no reason to have any special insight into. [[User:Good Olfactory|Good Ol’factory]] <sup>[[User talk:Good Olfactory|(talk)]]</sup> 22:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
:* "As I [implied] above" you did not have to make any accusations when, as you assert, all you had was mere "prima facie evidence", which by the way should not be posited, in good faith, unless it can be backed up with substantive evidence. Yours is a mere attempt to silence the arguments made against your proposal. And once again, my argument is that the relevant topic of discussion is not me or a "relatively obscure WP" one except to persons like "Olfactory". [[User:Broncocastro|Bronco Castro]] ([[User talk:Broncocastro|talk]]) 00:04, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Bronco Castro
:* "As I [implied] above" you did not have to make any accusations when, as you assert, all you had was mere "prima facie evidence", which by the way should not be posited, in good faith, unless it can be backed up with substantive evidence. Yours is a mere attempt to silence the arguments made against your proposal. And once again, my argument is that the relevant topic of discussion is not me or a "relatively obscure WP" one except to persons like "Ol'factory", "Good" or otherwise. [[User:Broncocastro|Bronco Castro]] ([[User talk:Broncocastro|talk]]) 00:04, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Bronco Castro

Revision as of 00:23, 24 June 2010

< June 15 June 17 >

June 16

Organized crime associates

Category:Associates of organized crime groups in Russia - Template:Lc1
Category:Associates of organized crime groups in the United States - Template:Lc1
Category:Camorra associates in Italy - Template:Lc1
Category:Associates of the Sicilian Mafia - Template:Lc1
Category:Associates of Mexican drug cartels - Template:Lc1
Category:Lucchese crime family Associates - Template:Lc1
Category:Bonanno crime family associates - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. The parent category for these (Category:Organized crime associates) was recently deleted. Suggestions were made in the nomination that the subcategories should be deleted as well, but they were not included in the nomination. These are the former subcategories. The same rationale for deletion applies. The original rationale, given by User:Robofish, was: "BLP issues. This is the kind of description that's OK in an article, where it can be explained how someone is associated with organised crime and supported with references, but dangerous as a category. 'Associates' is too vague: it could mean a very strong connection, or a weak one. It seems too easy to imply illegal activity by adding someone to this category. I advise deleting it and its subcategories and merging its members (when it is uncontroversial that they are involved in organised crime) into better defined categories." I support deletion of the categories and re-categorization of the articles based on the original rationale. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:57, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Catholic Members of Parliament

Propose renaming Category:Catholic Members of Parliament to Category:Catholic Members of the United Kingdom Parliament
Nominator's rationale: Rename. Propose specifying which country's parliament this category is referring to, to match its parent, Category:Members of the United Kingdom Parliament. As it stands now, the category is vastly underpopulated from what it would be if done completely. (Currently it includes just a handful of incumbent MPs.) I'm assuming that "Members" should remain capitalized because "Member of Parliament" is a formal title, though I'm willing to be corrected on that point of capitalisation. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename. It makes sense to codify these categories, and the capitalisation seems correct. It should of course be much thicker - the Catholic Herald seems to suggest that there are roughly 70 or so incumbent Catholic MPs, but this doesn't include former members like Anne Widdecombe and Norman St John-Stevas (et al.). Severe Punishment (talk) 01:11, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Unnecessary over-categorisation. AllyD (talk) 07:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete – I am not aware of any specifically Catholic causes in the UK parliament. (I am assuming that these MPs are already in suitable categories. Anne Widdecombe is in 'English Roman Catholics' and in sundry MP categories. Is there any evidence that her religion had any bearing on her politics? Are we going to have 'UK MPs by religion'?) If kept rename per nom. Occuli (talk) 17:26, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment (nom). As nominator, I'm fine to go along with deletion if that is the consensus. I think that perhaps in a country that has an officially established Christian religion that is non-Catholic this might be worth categorizing, but honestly I don't really know enough about the issue to have a definitive opinion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:13, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment since this category is timeless, what would the category look like if all notable Catholic members throughout the history of Parliament were properly placed here? A use then? Hmains (talk) 02:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete rather than rename as they are unconnected terms, the religion of Members of Parliment is not really notable, and we do not have other religous groupings associated with MPs. MilborneOne (talk) 13:52, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Lots of MPs are Catholics, but very few of them are notable for their Catholicism. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Category:Ameba Content Catalog

Category:Ameba Content Catalog - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: A WP:SPA account is adding references to film content available via Ameba, which does not have a Wikipedia article as yet but it is a Winnipeg-based IPTV system for kids' entertainment. Being listed in Ameba's catalog is obviously not a defining characteristic of these films -- and this brand new editor likely doesn't realize how categories should be used. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC) Shawn in Montreal (talk) 18:50, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This Category is inline with other specific categories such as: Programs broadcast by Treehouse TV, Disney Channel Shows, YTV shows, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tekgear (talk • contribs) 19:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think it is. Those categories group shows produced or commissioned by those networks. Your category is for archival programs that Ameba has licensed non-exclusively, for a little known IPTV service. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • The assumption of "produced for" or "commissioned by" is not correct. Also, licensing and notoriety of a service should not be the means test for the creation of a Category. Tekgear (talk) 19:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think you're right on the first point. However, I disagree with your second: it's unlikely we'll retain this category if Ameba isn't notable enough for a parent article, according to the guidelines in WP:COMPANY. I do see a few news hits, basically the press release licked up in a few trade publications, that might indicate it would squeak by. If Ameba isn't notable on its own, then being shown via its IPTV cannot be considered defining. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete – there are categories such as Category:BBC television programmes but I hope these are for programmes commissioned by the BBC rather than merely broadcast. Category:Programs broadcast by Treehouse TV sounds dubious to me. Occuli (talk) 21:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - That is not the case for all the titles listed in BBC Television programs Category either. A quick scan shows TV shows listed from come from Paramount, 20th Century, and Fox 2000 among others with no BBC commissioning or credits - other than that they purchased the rights for distribution. All I intended for this Category to be equal with what the other Categories in this "genre" are - listing of content that are available on the platform/channel. It is strictly informative without being promotional in any way. Tekgear (talk) 16:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by school in Australia

Propose renaming Category:People by school in Australia to Category:Former pupils by secondary school in AustraliaCategory:Former students by secondary school in Australia
Nominator's rationale: as part of nominations here below. 'Former pupil' may or may not be the preferred Australian-specific term - unsure. Note - will nominate the subcategories of this page 'speedily' should this nomination succeed Mayumashu (talk) 22:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment No objection to restricting membership in these categories to exclude staff etc and as such support a name change. Indeed, I am not convinced these "by school" categories are useful at all - as opposed to "by school" lists - but I'll refrain from suggesting deletion. In my opinion, "pupil" comes across as old-fashioned and is certainly not a term widely used in contemporary Australia. Perhaps "former student" or past student" or indeed just "student" would be more appropriate. -- Mattinbgn\talk 03:03, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will alter the nomination accordingly. I agree that lists are likely enough here but failed to get deletions in the couple of nominations I tried a while back. Mayumashu (talk) 13:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently 'alumni' is not the standard term used in Australia/N.Z. for former students of secondary schools Mayumashu (talk) 21:11, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by school in New Zealand

Propose renaming Category:People by school in New Zealand to Category:Former pupils by secondary school in New ZealandCategory:Former students by secondary school in New Zealand
Nominator's rationale: as part of nominations here below. 'Former pupil' may or may not be the preferred N.Z.-specific term - unsure Mayumashu (talk) 22:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In NZ the word "pupil" is largely confined to primary schools. The word "student" denotes an older more adult age group and is greatly preferred for secondary schools, the students of which are encouraged to be adult anyway. I recommend keeping the category as "Former students" and therefore recoomend no changeRick570 (talk) 01:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

However, the category is currently 'student' and not 'former student'. You d support Category:Former students by secondary school in New Zealand, right? Mayumashu (talk) 02:39, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will edit accordingly. Mayumashu (talk) 03:23, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That s the question - whioh term is most acceptable for the N.Z. context Mayumashu (talk) 20:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
These nominations are about changing the standard, at least for categorisation, as 'school' could included tertiary-level institutions, which already has its own separate tree, as well as primary ones, which we want not to have. These cats list former students by school at the secondary educational level and the name should reflect this clearly Mayumashu (talk) 20:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by schools in Pakistan

Propose renaming Category:People by schools in Pakistan to Category:Former pupils by secondary school in Pakistan
Nominator's rationale:' as per below nominations and UK language specific Mayumashu (talk) 19:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Category:People by school in Sierra Leone

Propose renaming Category:People by school in Sierra Leone to Category:Alumni by secondary school in Sierra Leone
Nominator's rationale: the one school listed is a secondary school. (This nomination too in conjunction with those below.) Mayumashu (talk) 18:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by secondary school in Canada

Propose renaming Category:People by secondary school in Canada to Category:Alumni by secondary school in Canada
Nominator's rationale: as per noms. below Mayumashu (talk) 18:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by high school in Romania

Propose renaming Category:People by high school in Romania to Category:Alumni by secondary school in Romania
Nominator's rationale: as per below Mayumashu (talk) 18:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by high school in Taiwan

Propose renaming Category:People by high school in Taiwan to Category:Alumni by secondary school in Taiwan
Nominator's rationale: as per other nominations listed below Mayumashu (talk) 18:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by schools in the United Kingdom

Propose renaming
Nominator's rationale: as per nomination below, schools listed are primarily secondary level and only should be, and teaching staff etc should not be included Mayumashu (talk) 17:52, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. My only concern here is that alumni is ambiguous. It can mean people who attended the school in some cases and in others people who graduated. So at a by country this is probably not ambiguous since attended vs graduated varies only by country, I think. So is now the time to see if there is a better way to handle this? 18:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
I d say encourage comment on this matter while also working on tidying up what does exist now of this cat tree. Graduates are a sub-set of alumni, so I might suggest possibly having Category:Graduates of Eton College as a subset of Category:Old Etonians, though I don t know if it is in fact necessary. 'People' is even more non-defining as it can include teaching staff if not others too. Mayumashu (talk) 18:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
However non-pupils are, for the most part anyway, separately subcatted under Category:People by educational institution in the United Kingdom, at Category:Academics by university in the United Kingdom etc. There may be a few prominent teachers listed amongst the students for a few lists and where this is the case, a 'People by ...' supracat can be recreated. Very few secondary school teachers however are WP:Notable for being teachers, but there are a few, admittedly. Mayumashu (talk) 20:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
For me, it should vary according to common formal English use for the country in question - alumni for the States, Canada and Latin America, former pupils for Indian subcontinent, Southern and Eastern Africa, and I m sure for rest of Europe, Oceania, East Asia, etc not sure Mayumashu (talk) 23:04, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment dont object to re-naming, but looking at the Category:People by school in England and the suggestion it is changed to secondary school most of the schools in the current category are non-state schools and somebody English would not think of them as secondary schools in the general sense as the expectation that it would included the local state secondary school, most would consider it wierd that Eton for example (and most of the schools in the category) is categorised as a secondary school. Would it be a lot easier to have Category:Former pupils by school in England a fairly simple change on the original category. Also note that it is very rare that primary schools would be notable to have Category:Former pupils by primary school in England which doesnt leave a lot of other schools. I know this is getting into ENGVAR issues but the categories are meant to be to help readers find stuff not to confuse them. MilborneOne (talk) 21:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you have a point that since elementary schools are very rarely notable, users will likely take 'school' to mean non-elemenary level ones and therefore secondary or equivalents. Then it goes back to the first issue I had with Category:Alumni by school, the supracategory for this page, that in North America a 'school' is an 'education instituation' and there is also Category:People by educational institution. (see a few nominations down this page). Perhaps one could merge these two supracategory pages and then leave the British and other ones at 'school'. Another idea I had was that by 'secondary school' one can mean a school that provides secondary level education, which would include Eton and other public schools. So, I m still favour of using 'secondary' here. Mayumashu (talk) 22:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Category:School alumni in Foo. This is the standard WP format, though perhaps properly applicable to tertiary colleges and universities. Old Etonians do not graduate from the school: in UK, you graduate only on completing a university degree; Eton is a secondary school. We do not do primary school alumni, so there is no problem. Old Fooian is a normal UK format; I am an Old Salopian, having been educated at Shrewsbury School, but for WP conformity, I am an Alumni of Shrewsbury School. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
??There is Category:Old Salopians and there isn t Category:Alumni of Shrewsbury School. The trouble is that with the present name we could do priminary schools - a name change to 'secondary school' would eliminate implicitly encouraging doing primary schools without having to monitor categories, cutting down on work. Almost no subcats for these nominated here - the UK ones - uses 'alumni' in fact - I disagree that we can t go with local usage here, under a Category:Alumni by secondary school or Category:Former students by secondary school, whichever. Mayumashu (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by school in India

Propose renaming Category:People by schools in India to Category:Former pupils by secondary school in India
Nominator's rationale: listed are alumni by secondary school, and not staff or other people or alumni by elementary or primary schools (and UK-specific term used) Mayumashu (talk) 16:11, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People by high school in the United States

Propose renaming Category:People by high school in the United States to Category:Alumni by secondary school in the United StatesCategory:Alumni by high school in the United States
Nominator's rationale: the intention is to list alumni and not to include teaching staff or other people connected to high schools or other combined grade schools that include the high school grades. Mayumashu (talk) 15:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Will go with 'high school' in that case Mayumashu (talk) 03:19, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Alumni by school

Propose renaming Category:Alumni by school to Category:Alumni or former students by secondary schoolCategory:Alumni by secondary school or Category:Former students by secondary school
Nominator's rationale: current name can be taken to be synonymous, in casual terms, with Category:Alumni by educational institution, its supracategory (at least in North American English). Any alumni/former pupils by (strictly) primary or elementary schools should most likely be deleted, should they be listed in subcategories for this page Mayumashu (talk) 15:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Territorial Decoration recipients

Propose renaming Category:Territorial Decoration recipients to Category:Recipients of the Territorial Decoration
Nominator's rationale: Rename. For consistency with other similar categories in Category:Recipients of United Kingdom military awards and decorations and Category:Recipients of United Kingdom civil awards and decorations. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:George Medal recipients

Propose renaming Category:George Medal recipients to Category:Recipients of the George Medal
Nominator's rationale: Rename. For consistency with other similar categories in Category:Recipients of United Kingdom civil awards and decorations and Category:Recipients of United Kingdom military awards and decorations. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Mission Inn

Category:Mission Inn - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: The category currently contains the main article on the Mission Inn, a song written at the Inn, a book taking place at the Inn and the author of a biography of the Inn's builder. In other words, these are very very loosely associated topics and this does not warrant a category. Pichpich (talk) 09:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment But we generally don't use categories to stress such things. There's no Hotel Chelsea or Lorelei category though many people, poems, songs, books are associated with them. Pichpich (talk) 13:55, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If we create a category named Category:Images of the Mission Inn, then what would the parent category of that category be? I feel the parent of such a category should be Category:Mission Inn, but that is the category originally being questioned. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 22:51, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Reasons to keep: Initially after it was suggested that we delete the Mission Inn category, I was not particularly opposed. After reflecting on the matter, doing some research, and adjusting the description and content of the category, I have concluded that it should be kept (IMO), for the following reasons:

  • 1) Although there are few articles and media files in the category now, I believe there will likely be more in the future. The Mission Inn is very eclectic. I can see potential for individual articles about some of the collections, histories and architecture of the Inn, as well as the current owner, the Mission Inn Museum, and other features of the hotel. It is also likely that lists related to the Mission Inn will also be written, e.g. presidential visits, historic events at the Inn, artifacts of the Inn, etc. Images and postcards of the Mission Inn are very common. As long as people are allowed to post media to Wikipedia, outside of the Wikimedia Commons, then this is likely to grow also.
  • 2) The fact that an eponymous category has not been created for any other hotel, yet, does not necessarily indicate that an eponymous category is not appropriate. The reason for categories is to help readers and editors locate information associated with a particular topic. The question to answer is; "Does the Mission Inn category help, or not?" I believe it does. Keep in mind Wikipedia is very young. In 10, 20, 30 or more years down the road, although the technology will probably change greatly, I expect we will see many more articles in much more detail on Wikipedia. Many articles, including those related to famous and historic hotels, will likely need an eponymous category in order to tie them to the main article.
  • 3) After reviewing Wikipedia:Overcategorization, the only example of over categorization that might apply is Small with no potential for growth. For the reasons stated above, I believe there is potential for growth, although I don't expect that will happen quickly.
  • 4) It was suggested that we create a new category just for the media files / images of the Mission Inn. However, if we did that, then it would seem even more natural to me to create a parent category to associate the Mission Inn subcategories with the main article.
  • 5) Although Wikipedia doesn't currently have eponymous categories for any other hotel, the Wikimedia Commons does. Associating categorized information between Wikipedia and the Commons is easier and cleaner if we keep the names the same.

Note: I agree including Zona Gale in the category was a stretch, and that article has now been removed. I did start an article about Frank Augustus Miller, the Master of the Inn, which I have now included. If the group decides to remove the Mission Inn category, I will abide by the decision, but over time I expect it will likely be added back by someone. MissionInn.Jim (talk) 21:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. The article contents should be linked-to from Mission Inn, but grouping this type of stuff together is not typically what categories are created for—the contents for the most part are not defined by their linkage to Mission Inn and, as has been said by others, we're really only dealing with a tenuous or loose connection between the inn and the things categorized. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Belarusian pop groups

Propose renaming Category:Belarusian pop groups to Category:Belarusian pop music groups
Nominator's rationale: To match the rest of Category:Pop music groups Pichpich (talk) 09:15, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Wikipedia featured desktop backgrounds - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: This category consists almost solely of pages which are cross-namespace redirects to it ╟─TreasuryTag►Captain-Regent─╢ 07:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:2012 millenarianism

Propose renaming Category:2012 millenarianism to Category:2012 phenomenon
Nominator's rationale: Rename to match the name of the main article, 2012 phenomenon. Note the previous discussion just ended without a consensus. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename per nom to match the category name to the article name, which in light of the recent move request is not changing. I made this rename suggestion at the last discussion and was told that it would not work because confusion might result with the 2012 Olympics. I never really understood that, since I'm not aware of anyone anywhere referring to the 2012 Olympics as the "2012 phenomenon". This name seems as good as any to me. Good Ol’factory (talk) 10:10, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment the main article has also recently undergone a requested move (more recently than the category), which also was closed as no consensus. 70.29.212.131 (talk) 04:24, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It would be better if the Requested Move had ended with a consensus, but until there is one the category should be renamed to match. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:23, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Languages of Pakistan by province or territory

Propose renaming Category:Languages of Pakistan by province or territory to Category:Languages of Pakistan by administrative unit.
Nominator's rationale: This would be consistent like other national division cats in Category:Categories by administrative unit of Pakistan. Mar4d (talk) 06:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Populated places in Balochistan

Propose merging Category:Populated places in Balochistan into Category:Populated places in Balochistan (Pakistan) and rename Category:Union councils of Balochistan (which is a subcat) to Category:Union councils of Balochistan (Pakistan).
Nominator's rationale: All the cities listed in this category are in the Pakistani portion of Balochistan (region). The category Category:Populated places in Balochistan should have little or no articles at all since the Balochistan region is divided between Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan - hence the cities can correctly/geographically be sorted rather into their own respective country categories. In the case of this redundant category, all of the articles that are categorised here belong to Pakistani Balochistan. Hence they should all be merged into Category:Populated places in Balochistan (Pakistan) as that is geographically correct/accurate. You may also notice that someone has already made the redundant cat a soft redirect into the latter. The subcat Category:Union councils of Balochistan (which is a subcat of this) should also be renamed into something like Category:Union councils of Balochistan (Pakistan) as all the union councils listed in here are in Pakistani Balochistan Mar4d (talk) 05:41, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment My first reaction was that this should be a "reverse merge" as Balochistan is a Pakistani province, and I do not think it is a province of the other two countries, though adjacent regions of them may have Balochi inhabitants. However the nom's reasoning makes me doubt. I do not think that Union Councils needs renaming since there will be none in the other two countries as (I presume) this is a Pakistan-only governmental structure. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The reasoning for the rename to "Balochistan (Pakistan)" rather than just "Balochistan" is so that the cats. can match consistently in line with all others under Category:Balochistan (Pakistan) - Mar4d (talk) 04:27, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cantonments and military bases of Pakistan

Propose merging Category:Cantonments and military bases of Pakistan into Category:Military facilities of Pakistan.
Nominator's rationale: The former is redundant and both are categorised under Category:Military facilities by country. Mar4d (talk) 05:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cantonments and military bases of Sindh & Category:Cantonments and military bases of Karachi

Delete Category:Cantonments and military bases of Sindh & Category:Cantonments and military bases of Karachi
Nominator's rationale: As you may notice, both these categories are subcats of the one I have proposed above for merging. These categories should be deleted as they are useless - and are based on administrative divisions of a country. You will notice that no country category under Category:Military facilities by country has divisional sub-cats within it i.e. the United States does not have a category like Category:Military facilities of New York City etc. Also, since this is a military category belonging to a country, you can't have something like this (as it doesn't make sense). You cannot have "Military facilities of New York City" but rather "Military facilities in New York City" - and no such subdivision cats exist in the first place anyway. So no justification for these sparsely populated categories Mar4d (talk) 05:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing wrong with having it split into provinces, but I do not see the reason. The Category:Military bases in Pakistan would not be populated itself; unless it is very large, then there is a rational reasoning to split it. Mar4d (talk) 04:29, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Clothing for men

Category:Clothing for men - Template:Lc1
Category:Men's skirted garments - Template:Lc1 (added to nom at 22:16 17 June 2010 UTC)
Nominator's rationale: Delete. This is a follow-up nomination to the recently deleted Category:Clothing for women. (This category was created while the one for women was being discussed.) The same rationale that supported deletion there applies here: this is an arbitrary collection and depends quite heavily on the cultural biases of the person doing the categorizing. What is considered men's clothing in one time and culture may be unisex clothing in another and women's clothing in yet another. Amusingly, the current contents include Apron, Bathrobe, Bermuda shorts, Bloomers (clothing), Capri pants, Coat (clothing), Costume, Diving suit, Jeans, Safety pin, Shirt, Shorts, Skirt, Straitjacket, T-shirt, and Trenchcoat. Women don't wear any of those, right?
Even the subcategories are misnamed and/or consist of arbitrary groupings: Category:Men's skirted garments contains, among others—Hakama, Lava-lava, Longyi, Lungi, Sarong, Ta'ovala, and Wrap (clothing)—all of which are worn by men and women. This is, as the closer said in the previous discussion, all "hopelessly arbitrary". Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Hong Kong people of Shundenese descent

Category:Hong Kong people of Shundenese descent - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. This is a follow-up to this discussion, where Category:People of Shundenese descent and its subcategories were deleted. This one was omitted from that nomination and should be likewise deleted. For the other nationalities, we upmerged to the category for "Fooian people of Chinese descent", but for good reasons there is not a Category:Hong Kong people of Chinese descent. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that particular Chinese sub-national ethnicities should be catted for for H.K, but Shundenese is apparently not an ethnicity - Shundene people redirects to Shunde District. Shundenese or Shundene are anyone from Shunde District, in other words - as I say above, it s like subcatting Canadians of American descent not even by which American state their forebearers came from, but by which part of which state. Mayumashu (talk) 11:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Roman Catholic sex abuse cases by country

Propose renaming Category:Roman Catholic sex abuse cases by country to Category:Roman Catholic sex abuse scandal by country
Nominator's rationale: This category breaks down its supercategory ("Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal") into its country-by-country instances (e.g. "Catholic sexual abuse scandal in the United States"); it covers something broader than particular cases of abuse (e.g. responses to abuse are also included). So the most consistent naming would be "Roman Catholic sex abuse scandal by country". TheGrappler (talk) 02:36, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:American Jews by national origin

Propose renaming the following:
Propose upmerging the following:
Nominator's rationale: hyphenation ambiguous, could be taken to mean a few different things (dual citizens who are Jews, Jews who are citizens of these countries with American origins, vice-versa, or whathaveyou) and for this reason hyphenation for subcategories of Category:People by ethnic or national origin was deleted in favour of a naming that spells out what is meant. This is a sub-set that has been left over and an attempt to rename using the term 'descent' was rejected as suggestive of Booian ancestry (and thereby not Jewish ethnicity) - see this discussion - here, 'origin' was proposed as being not too suggestive of Booian ancestry. (To be clear, what is listed are Jews with American citizenship who were once settled in Booia or citizens of Booia or whose parents or forebearers were.) Mayumashu (talk) 02:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename/upmerge per nom. This proposal reflects the rough consensus that was arrived at in the DRV when the discussion drifted towards what could or should be done with these after the undiscussed speedy rename changes were reversed, which they were. I support this choice for the reasons discussed there and because it is clearer than what exists now and it seemed to have majority support in the DRV. A few other users have strongly criticised using "descent", so "origin" seems like a good compromise. A few users even preferred the retention of the hyphenated compound adjectives, but they are hopelessly ambiguous, in my opinion. If you ask 4 different people what they mean, you could easily get 4 different answers. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good Olfactory, would you likewise support Category:American Jews of Russian Jewish descent? Seems like a good alternative, that came up a bit down the page, as it lessens the ambiguity that just using 'descent' or 'origin' may hold. It seems to lessen the chance of taking what is meant to be descent of "Russianness", where the intended meaning is, of course, descent of Russian Jewishness Mayumashu (talk) 13:30, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Several contributors in the DRV discussion besides Good Ol'factory and myself suggested using 'origin' and not 'descent' and suggested having a CfD on this matter, hence this nomination. There has been, in fact, a fairly developed consensus here at this project, cats for discussion, for having people categorised by ethnic or national origin/descent without using hyphenated adjectives, because of the ambiguity hyphenation convey. User:IZAK fails to explain how a name such as Category:Russian-American Jews is any better at conveying that listed are not, firstly, Russian Americans who practice Judaism and are, the intended, ethnically Jewish whose family a generation or more in Russia. (In fact, the category should allow for both types of people to be included.) That is, the hyphenated name is no better in emphasing Jewish ethnicity over "Russianish" (Russian nationality, ethnicity, citiznenship, etc.), to take an example. 'origin' is not the perfect term either in emphasing Jewish ethnicity over Russian, but it is better in showing that what is not meant is dual Russian-American citizenship or Russians of American origin/ descent who are Jewish. As for User:IZAK's comments critical of GOF's and my work in editting category names in general, not that we need to defend ourselves, but GOF has always gone about this work going through the proper channels and procedures, from what I ve seen, and I think I ve done so too, though I ve probably goofed up a few times here and there. Category pages are shared by users of different interests because they interconnect - the pages in question here are not the sole domain of Judaic editors, but also for those interested in human migration and for anyone with general interests too of course. Pages are tagged to let all those interested in them know of nominations. As for the attempt to speedily rename these pages before, again, they were done in good faith following correct procedure, as I interpreted it (based on the naming structure of parent categories and renaming precedent). Mayumashu (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong! The issue is not the hyphen, some are and some aren't, nor is it about "tracking citizenship" as if Wikipedia is now some huge "passport control agency" tracking human migrations alone, rather the issue is how to retain the clearest description of a complex sub-group such as the Jews who, while they exhibit definitional elasticity for purposes of Wikipedia categorization as Mayumashu and Good Olfactory are proving with their never-ending handy-work, yet nevertheless there is a vital need to have clarity and specificity. It is precisely because Wikipedia has clearly defined articles/subjects/categories about Russian Americans that it is logical and possible to add it to the subject about Jews so that Russian American+Jews="Russian American Jews" just as the accepted term "Russian Jews" means Jews from Russia and no normal person or scholar uses the circumlocution of "Jews of Russian origins or descent" (do you want Wikipedia to come across as sounding like a crazy fool? violating its own rules of WP:HOAX and WP:NONSENSE?) Likewise no one in real life or in academia uses the term "American Jews of Russian origins or descent" as if they are terms detached from the way language and terminology is used by normal humans. Wikipedia is user, meaning reader, friendly, it does not want to foist and create its own Wiki-sociological-mumbo-jumbo-jargon based on silly arguments. No one refers to Frank Sinatra or Dean Martin as "(Singing?) Americans of Italian origins or descent" but as "Italian Americans" and ditto for their kids and grandkids even if born in America. Believe it or not Lady Gaga is an Italian American, check it out. Categories should correspond to terminology in articles! So likewise with Jews, while they are American Jews, they are something else first, such as "Russian American Jews", "Polish American Jews", actually to be specific there is no harm or insult to call them they are "Russian Jews" or "Polish Jews" or "Hungarian-Polish Jews" no matter how many generations on they have lived in America, it's the way Jews and scholars refer to them as well quite often. In Brooklyn you have "Syrian Jews" and "Hungarian Jews" even though they have been in America from 50 to 100 years. It is incredible that we have to actually discuss such obvious matters and it is absurd and ridiculous the lengths to which Mayumashu goes to uphold fake rules that have nothing to do with real life, history or reality. This is not about favoritism for Jews. This is about that Mayumashu, Good Olfactory and Cyde have taken on themselves "the job" to change all categories of humans as they please, without getting comprehensive input from every group they change to their liking which they then claim is "what Wikipedia wants" which it is most decidedly not! IZAK (talk) 18:30, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The "fake rules" as you call them is convention that has been established on this project page, over the past few years with the input of some forty or more contributors/users/readers in the case of 'people by ethnic or national origin'. Fine, strictly speaking, the issue is not about the hyphen but compound adjective use (which typically uses a hyphen) - Russian American Jews (or Russian-American Jews) can be taken to mean, depending on what English you use, Russian citizens who are American Jews, American citizens who are Russian Jews, or dual citizens who are Jews, as already said. Sure, to Americans amongst Americans, mostly no discussion on what is meant by a name is necessary but, obviously, non-American users read WP too. Admittedly, compromising naming pattern and style to suit and make it comprehensible to most, no matter which English one uses, can result in a degree of wordiness and names that are somewhat less natural or normal to some - isn t this needless to say? But, honestly, how is the name 'American Jew of Russian origin' any less comprehenible to an American than 'Russian(-)American Jew'. Mayumashu (talk) 21:56, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
IZAK, please keep me out of your conspiracy theorist rantings. As you've been told numerous times, I had nothing to do with nominating the categories the first time or this second time. Feel free to continue to express as much paranoia as you wish, but with regard to my actions, please at least make an attempt to refer to facts based in reality. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was just going to ignore the user's suggestiveness and tone, but that it has been brought up, that goes for me too. Mayumashu (talk) 22:58, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I've left IZAK a very stern warning regarding his behavior. Should he persist, he will find himself in a temporary block. — ξxplicit 23:33, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
True enough - not every single Northern or Central European Jew would necessarily be Ashkenazi. Upmerge to Category:American Jews of European origin (or Category:American Jews of European Jewish descent) instead then? Mayumashu (talk) 13:10, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I think IZAK wants "Fooian American Jews" to mean Americans of Fooian Jewish culture/origin/descent, rather than American Jews of Fooian origin/descent. That's yet another ambiguity, in addition to the possible (although unlikely) American Jews of Fooian nationality. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:44, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is a very good alternative that you ve suggested, Category:American Jews of Russian Jewish descent etc., right? Mayumashu (talk) 03:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I also question this as the Jews in question are American Jews, first and foremostly. After 75 years in the States, one's family no longer "Russian", etc., is one's? Mayumashu (talk) 03:29, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all per IZAK. He makes some very good points, plus we just had a very similar CfD not too long ago...Give it some time instead of trying to find new angles with which to achieve a preconceived outcome. --nsaum75¡שיחת!‎ 14:00, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "we just had a very similar CfD not too long ago". No, we didn't, although you may be thinking of a recent DRV, which does not qualify as a rename discussion even though the issues were discussed (in the wrong venue, however). The categories were renamed via WP:CFDS, but there was no discussion. These changes were reversed at WP:DRV because there was no discussion, and the closer essentially said that there could be a discussion using full CFD, and this is it. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all per Izak. Reply to unsigned, After 75 years in the States - I agree. The cats would seem only relevant to immigrants, or if the person has continued to be identified with that sub-group. A child born to Italian ex-pats may or not be 'Italian' depending on if s/he assimilates or strives to remain 'Italian'. --Shuki (talk) 22:53, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment. So, are you in favor of depopulating the cats, making sure that only recent immigrants are included? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:19, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep all, at least for now. 'Origin' is a word I think its best to avoid, and the proposed changes sort of misses the point. The most relevant criteria, especially when categorizing people who are 3-4th generation Americans, is the belonging to a community or subcommunity. --Soman (talk) 12:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then how about Category:American Jews of Russian Jewish descent etc. Instead of either 'Booian origin' or 'Booian descent' we could use 'Booian Jewish descent' to add clarity. The compound (hyphenated) adjective is so unclear about what is meant, where what is meant can be interpreted so differently depending on what the common usage is where is from. Mayumashu (talk) 21:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep All as these are the prevalent terms used to describe such individuals. Alansohn (talk) 15:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename most per nom. WE had long discussions about a year ago in which we renamed all non-American dual nationality categories to "Booians of Fooian descent". This should also be done to American categories. Oppose the items to be merged to Ashkenazi, which is changing a local origin to an ethnic one, the converse being Sephadic. These items need to be nominated for a separate discussion. Peterkingiron (talk) 20:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. No credible argument has been given for "keep", as WP:COMMONNAME does not apply to categories. Even if it did, no one would know which of the plausible meanings was intended. Some have argued about whether the specific name should be American Jews of Fooian origin/descent/culture, or Americans of Fooian Jewish origin/descent/culture, but the present names violate clear Wikipedia guidelines. See, for example WP:Category names#Heritage. The second bullet point suggests these categories should be deleted, but I don't really consider that seriously at this time. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:25, 19 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why not? The categories are obviously contentious, have no clear definitions, no obvious name, and are riddled with dubious entries/members. Past attempts to restrict them to people who emigrated from one country to another have failed miserably, and they seem like a classic example of WP:OCAT. Jayjg (talk) 01:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Hmmm. I don't agree that they don't have an obvious name, just no clear definitions. Perhaps they should be deleted, but I'm sure some would consider that evidence of anti-Jewish bias. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:56, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, the accurate name for these categories would be American Jews whose ancestors emigrated from Russia etc. Anything else is ambiguous, since "of Russian descent" or "of Russian origin" could mean Russian nationality or Russian ethnicity, which are quite different things. However, I don't think it's likely that people would support changing the category names to these ones, even though they are completely unambiguous and accurate. Therefore, we are left with these ambiguous, error-filled, BLP-violation magnets. Now, aside from the potential of spurious accusations of "anti-Jewish bias", is there any reason why these categories need to exist, or shouldn't be deleted? Jayjg (talk) 05:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Former populated places in Scandinavia

Propose merging Category:Former populated places in Scandinavia to Category:Former populated places in Europe
Nominator's rationale: I suggest this should be upmerged; there doesn't seem to be any logic having a distinct "Scandinavia" subdivision (it doesn't have any Scandinavian parent categories); the depopulated places are unambiguously within Denmark/Norway/Sweden and can also be categorized as such. TheGrappler (talk) 00:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Honorary citizens of Vienna

Category:Honorary citizens of Vienna - Template:Lc1
Nominator's rationale: Delete. The normal practice with "honorary citizenship" categories has been to essentially treat them as awards and therefore to listify them. This one is already listified at List of honorary citizens of Vienna, so I think the category can be deleted. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:09, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Category:LGBT people of Puerto Rican descent

Propose merging Category:LGBT people of Puerto Rican descent to Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people
Nominator's rationale: Merge. No other category categorizes LGBT people by a specific national descent. Do we really want to start doing this? Categorizing LGBT people by nationality is sensible, and perhaps by general ethnic group is OK (Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people), but in my view this is starting to slice things a bit thin. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:02, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Against merging. While it is useful and valid to have a Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people, it is also important to recognize the specificity of LGBT Puerto Rican people in the United States and to be able to easily identify them in relation to LGBT people from Puerto Rico. I created this category after another Wikipedian deleted all of these names from the Category:LGBT people from Puerto Rico. Consult scholarly works such as David William Foster's Latin American Writers on Gay and Lesbian Themes and Lawrence La Fountain-Stokes Queer Ricans: Cultures and Sexualities in the Diaspora for rationale behind having LGBT Puerto Ricans in the US be identifiable and linkable to LGBT people in Puerto Rico, and why it is important to be able to distinguish between Puerto Ricans, Cubans, Mexican Americans, and others in the US. Another relevant scholarly source is "Puerto Rican Queer Sexualities", special issue of CENTRO: Journal of the Center for Puerto Rican Studies (Spring 2007). Finally, identifying Puerto Ricans in US as separate and also as part of bigger category of Hispanics or Latinos is consistent with many general Wikipedia editing practices for this specific group.--Lawrlafo (talk) 02:48, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because LGBT people of Puerto Rican descent in the US identify as (or are considered) Puerto Rican and American (being both, as Puerto Rico is a non-incorporated, colonial possession of the US, and all Puerto Ricans are US citizens except those who explicitly reject this citizenship and accept that of another sovereign nation), and most leading scholars and activists commonly see the links and circular migration patterns between the two. It is not easy to account for this in Wikipedia. AIDS researchers and many others also distinguish between the broader panethnic labels ("Latino, Hispanic") and specific country of origin (such as Puerto Rican), because of the great limitations in these broader categories. This is why it makes sense to have an easily-identifiable category for LGBT people of Puerto Rican descent.--Lawrlafo (talk) 03:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is important to many LGBT Puerto Ricans and to scholars who do research on LGBT Puerto Ricans and to others who are interested in issues pertaining to this population, for example sexuality studies scholars and AIDS researchers. It is also useful for teaching. I teach a class called "Queer Culture of the Hispanic Caribbean and Its Diaspora", in which is its required for students to be able to identify LGBT Cubans, Dominicans (from the Dominican Republic), and Puerto Ricans who live in the Caribbean and who live in other countries (the diaspora, particularly the US). You agree to the existence of Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people, which is a category that identifies people in the US on the basis of their ethnicity and sexuality. As I have attempted to explain above, the terms "Hispanic and Latino people" are overarching categories that homogenize and bring together people of 17 different Latin American and Caribbean backgrounds in the US. It is useful to have that category, but also ones which differentiate. There are books that focus on LGBT Puerto Ricans in the US such as Lawrence La Fountain's Queer Ricans: Cultures and Sexualities in the Diaspora. I don't know how many Monserratians there are in the US, they are certainly not a visible political constituency in the US in the way that Puerto Ricans are. If you follow US politics and news, you are aware that the Puerto Ricanness and homosexuality of specific individuals such as Ricky Martin and Anthony Romero are relevant to many people. There are many other Puerto Rican LGBT people, and I intend to help interested parties find easily accessible information on this population. That is the purpose of this category.--Lawrlafo (talk) 03:54, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Against merging, however why not just rename "Category:LGBT people from Puerto Rico" to "LGBT people from Puerto Rico and of Puerto Rican descent"? Lawrlafo, did make a valid point in that many U.S. born people of Puerto Rican descent simply identify themselves as Puerto Ricans. It may also seem strange but, there are some Puerto Ricans who are so "Americanized" that they do not consider Puerto Rico a "Latin" country and therefore do not consider themselves and recent to being called Latins. That's politics for you, you go figure (smile). Tony the Marine (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Catting people who openly disclose their sexuality and ethnic or national descent is a legitimate practice and there are hundreds of individuals identified for countries around the world in Wikipedia using this criteria.--Lawrlafo (talk) 03:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • We're referring to two different concepts, apparently. The ethnicity categories you cite are not as specific as "of Puerto Rican descent". In that sense, this category is unique and not part of an overall scheme. Good Ol’factory (talk) 00:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom. There is no connection between sexuality and ethnic/national descent as far as I know. And Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people is not otherwise subcatted. (If there is a notable connection between LGBT people and those of Puerto Rican descent, an article should precede the category. There seems to be an underlying assumption that these people are all American - do Puerto Ricans not travel?) Occuli (talk) 10:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I never entirely grokked the argument that Puerto Ricans were somehow unique in regards to the relevance of a "members of this ethnic group in other countries by sexuality" intersection that's not generally considered necessary for any other group; however, I do feel I should note that I suggested this as an option to the creator after he challenged me on having removed several people from Category:LGBT people from Puerto Rico who have Puerto Rican ethnicity but were born and raised and worked and lived and died entirely within the mainland United States. I still don't entirely see the value of this — what's relevant in regards to sexuality is the country or countries within which the person has actually occupied some physical or cultural space, not the country their parents or grandparents came from — but I did offer to defer to his judgment in the matter. I do remain concerned about the possibility of Category:LGBT people from Puerto Rico getting misused again — though I suppose another alternative would be to recombine the two categories as Category:LGBT Puerto Ricans instead (which would at least have the benefit of being more accurate to both groups, as well as being more consistent with constructions such as Category:LGBT Native Americans. No !vote, just $0.02 for the pot. Bearcat (talk) 02:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Against merging, if anything the category Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people should be dismantled and broken up into categories such as Category:LGBT Chicano and Mexican American people, Category:LGBT Cuban American people, Category:LGBT people of Puerto Rican descent, etc. Hispanic and Latino American is not an ethnic or racial category as almost all those in favor of merging have tried to argue. Even as a linguistic category, it fails: a Chicano youth in L.A. could be descended from Nahuatl speakers, never having spoken a word of Spanish, and still be labeled Hispanic or Latino. Ethnically, he would have nothing in common with a Dominican American from New York of African descent, who in turn would also not have anything in common from Jewish Argentine ex-pat living in Boston. So if they don't have language, ethnicity or race binding them together, what exactly makes them all "Hispanic/Latino" except for some vague sense from the Americans that they all come from more or less the same place and have more or less the same culture? Wikipedia should not be erasing important and meaningful national distinctions in favor of reifying a questionable construction by the US census. However, even within this demographic, national origin within the faux-ethnic category of Hispanic/Latino has been a distinction drawn by the US government for quite some time: just look at this year's US census form or any EEO self-identification form. Finally, I would like to point out that both Lawrlafo and I are both scholars in the field. (These distinctions are, unfortunately, all too often left out of Wikipedia discussions.) I'm a faculty member at Harvard, where I received my PhD in Romance Languages and Literatures. I will let Lawrlafo identify himslef if he so wishes, suffice it to say that he is a well-known expert on LGBT and Hispanic studies. --Jsterron (talk) 16:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  • Against merging: I agree with Lawrlafo and Jsterron's arguments against lumping all Hispanic or Latino BGLQT artists and celebrities under one category Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people that would dispense with the individual's ethnicity, race, nationality or provenance in general. As Robert Darnton observed in his book, The Great Cat Massacre, "Setting up categories and policing them is ... a serious business." (193, Vintage Books, 1985.) Similar valid objections would arise if an attempt were made to merge Latin-American or Hispanic "lesbians", "bisexuals", "queers" or "transgenders" into a category such as "Hispanic or Latino (sic) American-Gay (or Homosexual) people". Please respect a group's freedom to be classified as it desires. It's the democratic way. (For what it's worth: I am a lawyer and writer, and a student of Puerto Rican-Hispanic and Puerto Rican-Anglo, among other, literatures.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Broncocastro (talk • contribs) 19:44, 18 June 2010 (UTC) This template must be substituted.[reply]
  • Q. What's with all the votes by SPAs? Good Ol’factory (talk) 09:55, 20 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two contributions by SPAs are cogently written interventions in this debate. The individuals are here to build an encyclopedia. They are contributing with their expertise in the matter. A more pertinent question would be why is there such hostility in this debate towards recognizing a well established field of academic inquiry, which is that of the intersections of LGBT/sexuality studies and ethnic studies, specifically the relevance of identifying and studying the sexuality and ethnicity of Puerto Ricans in the United States. I am the author of a premiere study on the topic, Queer Ricans: Cultures and Sexualities in the Diaspora (University of Minnesota Press, 2009). I have worked tirelessly to write articles for Wikipedia on LGBT Puerto Ricans and other LGBT Latinas/os in the United States, as well as to improve and monitor articles on LGBT Latin American and Caribbean topics and on Puerto Rican and Latin American literature and culture. I am willing to expand and create similar categories such as this one for Cubans and Mexican Americans, the two other largest groups of Latinos/Hispanics in the US. Wikipedians who do not share an interest or understanding in this matter are trying to discredit a legitimate field of study. It is impossible for me to summarize in more concise or convincing terms the importance and relevance of the topic (which appears in numerous scholarly publications by authors such as José Esteban Muñoz, Gayatri Gopinath, Martin Manalansan IV, Eithne Luibheid, and in anthologies such as Hispanism and Homosexualities (Duke University Press, 1998) and Passing Lines: Sexuality and Immigration (Harvard University Press, 2005)) when the other editors are clearly uninterested in reading this academic bibliography. Please stop raising objections to this category.--Lawrlafo (talk) 22:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That doesn't really answer my question. How were the two users notified to comment on this discussion? Judging by the scarcity of their other edits, it sounds like it might be a case of meatpuppetry. Did you notify them of this discussion and ask them to comment here? Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:12, 21 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not contact the two users directly. I have contacted other users directly who have participated in this debate: Bearcat and Marine 69-71 (Tony the Marine).--Lawrlafo (talk) 04:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK. It is curious that they would suddenly pop up and make comments within a few hours of each other in this discussion when neither had been active in the weeks or months before this discussion. Could they have been contacted indirectly? I think this information should be taken into account by the closer of this discussion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • A In response to the unnecessary name calling and ad hominem comments made by "Good Olfactory", I am clarifying that I use this source of information (wikipedia.org) in my studies of Puerto Rican and other Hispanic and non-Hispanic BGLQT writers and celebrities. Thus, I am concerned that someone who has no apparent respect or appreciation for the specialized work and concerns of said individuals is attempting to efface this body of literature by lumping it into one more general and possibly unrelated category of identification. The material that is the subject of this discussion is an area of work created by persons with specific experiences and identities that they have in common and therefore distinguish them from the other contributors to the broader fields of Bisexual, Gay, Lesbian, Queer & Transgender histories and knowledge. It should remain a separate and easily identifiable category for research and edification. ~~Bronco Castro~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Broncocastro (talk • contribs) 16:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where did I engage in name-calling? I have been inquiring about a technical issue involving WP procedures, and your comments have nothing to do with that. I'm not concerned with your qualifications to comment here, I'm just wondering how you came to be notified of the discussion. If other users asked you to comment here or told you about the discussion, that can be considered meatpuppetry under WP rules and it must be taken into account by whomever closes the discussion. So far, no one has clarified the situation in that regard. Would you care to do so? Also, I am not "attempting to efface" any body of literature or anyone. Please assume good faith and don't attack others. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A" You're still not focusing on the matter at hand, and I suggest that you read the rules, as I have, which discourage the use of the terms you use without proof. As I've told you, I research the topic and in the process found the notice regarding the proposed merge, then I responded with my comments, the first of which was not uploaded for some reason, so I tried again a day later. I assure you this is all made in good faith and in the interest of all readers and researchers alike, unlike the comments that you have made here attacking the commentator rather than the argument. I still do not understand your insistence on merging the groups despite the sound arguments raised by scholars and other users.Bronco Castro (talk) 01:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Bronco Castro.[reply]
It's difficult to inquire about the issue without using the terminology. I haven't stated that you are unquestionably a meatpuppet or called you that—I have asked about the because there was prima facie evidence that you could have been one. It's not unusual for these issues to arise when "single purpose accounts" are involved in relatively obscure WP discussions. See Wikipedia:Single-purpose account. I can assure you that I have read and am familiar with "the rules" at WP. I'm not interested in debating the merits of the merge proposal any further—I've set out my point of view, and if you can't understand it, I don't think I can help make it any clearer. If you are going to blatantly allege that what I am doing is in bad faith, as you seem to be doing, then I hope you have some strong evidence of that. That is a much more serious accusation than one of possible meatpuppetry. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I caution Lawrlafo against doing what may appear to be canvassing. Rather than putting notes on individual user talk pages, posting invitations on the relavant WikiProject talk pages would be more prudent. LadyofShalott 02:10, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I have created Category:LGBT American people of Cuban descent and Category:LGBT American people of Mexican descent to complement Category:LGBT people of Puerto Rican descent. These three are now the subcategories of Category:LGBT Hispanic and Latino American people. I have also rewritten the parameters in the introduction to the category being discussed for merging to clarify its focus. I am also open to renaming the category Category:LGBT American people of Puerto Rican descent, which would make it a natural subcategory of Category:American people of Puerto Rican descent.--Lawrlafo (talk) 04:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - First, "The term meatpuppet is derogatory and should be used with care." This is what Wikipedia says on its link to the term "meatpuppet". So I suggest that Olfactory use it carefully next time, and stop throwing it around this time seemingly to dissuade others from considering the valid arguments and alternatives that have been offered against his proposed merge. Second, Puerto Ricans and persons of Puerto Rican descent are not one and the same group, for starters because where Spanish is most probably the dominant language for the former, English is for the latter. Moreover there are as many cultural differences reflected in the distinct vernaculars and histories of these two groups as there are between BGLQT Mexicans, Colombians, Dominicans, Cubans, Hondurans, ... Haitians and Brazilians (which the term "Latin-American" subsumes). Additionally, as it pertains to BGLQT persons of Puerto Rican descent, i.e., those born on the continental United States of Puerto Rican lineage, their experiences as a group within the larger BGLQT communities distinguishes their focuses and their perspectives when they create and respond, as Lawrlafo has explained. I hope that those who are voting for this proposed merge bear in mind this reality, and the important need for acknowledgment of this group's identity, as well as read the book, The Great Cat Massacre, which discusses the impact of categories imposed upon individuals and groups by outsiders. Last, it is my impression that Olfactory's remarks and proposal imply a flippant disregard for the sensibilities and differences of the group and groups in question.Bronco Castro (talk) 15:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Bronco Castro[reply]
  • As I said above: "It's difficult to inquire about the issue without using the terminology. I haven't stated that you are unquestionably a meatpuppet or called you that—I have asked about the because there was prima facie evidence that you could have been one. It's not unusual for these issues to arise when "single purpose accounts" are involved in relatively obscure WP discussions." You should keep your impressions to yourself when they relate to a user's intentions, thoughts, and feelings which you know nothing about and have no reason to have any special insight into. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As I [implied] above" you did not have to make any accusations when, as you assert, all you had was mere "prima facie evidence", which by the way should not be posited, in good faith, unless it can be backed up with substantive evidence. Yours is a mere attempt to silence the arguments made against your proposal. And once again, my argument is that the relevant topic of discussion is not me or a "relatively obscure WP" one except to persons like "Ol'factory", "Good" or otherwise. Bronco Castro (talk) 00:04, 24 June 2010 (UTC)Bronco Castro[reply]
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