Jump to content

Talk:Jared Lee Loughner: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Browse history interactively
← Previous editNext edit →
Content deleted Content added
VisualWikitext
Flodded (talk | contribs)
1,301 edits
Line 166: Line 166:


'''Comment''' Although the article has expanded I so far have seen nothing relevant that is not already in the main article here, unless someone wants to pull a rabbit of info out of a hat here. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 23:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
'''Comment''' Although the article has expanded I so far have seen nothing relevant that is not already in the main article here, unless someone wants to pull a rabbit of info out of a hat here. - [[User:Knowledgekid87|Knowledgekid87]] ([[User talk:Knowledgekid87|talk]]) 23:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

'''Oppose merge''' The craigslist killer was not merged. We cannot act arbitarily and capriciously. The suspect is along the same lines as Hinckley, who qualifies almost as a matter of policy. [[User:Hakkapeliitta|Hakkapeliitta]] ([[User talk:Hakkapeliitta|talk]]) 01:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
'''Oppose merge''' The craigslist killer was not merged. We cannot act arbitarily and capriciously. The suspect is along the same lines as Hinckley, who qualifies almost as a matter of policy. [[User:Hakkapeliitta|Hakkapeliitta]] ([[User talk:Hakkapeliitta|talk]]) 01:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)


Revision as of 01:46, 11 January 2011

Jared Lee Loughner

It seems like this guy's mindset, background and motivations will be an important component of the historical record over time. The "why" of this event is yet to be determined, but it will center, to some extent, around Jared Lee Loughner.

574jerry (talk) 22:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect

This person needs to be expanded on. if it is redirected there is no reason for more information to be added. Lets leave it for a little while if no one contributes then redirect. Don't kill the article before it has a chance.

(Savagemic (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]

Probably he falls under WP:BLP1E. Prodego talk 22:38, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This article was being Redirected by Ktr101 so I'm hoping he will stop redirected in order to give it a chance. (Savagemic (talk) 22:41, 8 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]
To me this article looks like it should pretty clearly be redirected because the subject falls under WP:BLP1E and the entire article is WP:OR (no reliable sources). Prodego talk 22:41, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've restored the redirect. IF sources emerge to build an article and the material can't go on the article on the shooting THEN at that point we can consider an article. At the moment there is noting to report that doesn't belong elsewhere. Further the Youtude stuff breaches the prohibition on original research. See also WP:NOTNEWS.--Scott Mac 22:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

An Open Letter to Editors

Though the article mentions a "former classmate" claiming he was "liberal when she knew him" (...knew him how well? There's no clarification on this, is there...?), and some of the other details, such as reading the Communist Manifesto and being critical of "religion" might suggest a left-wing radical, I would like to caution future editors to be very careful of stating things without citations as we get an influx of more news and commentary on the issue, or that matter, listing him as explicitly "left-wing" - or "right-wing" for that matter - since while being a fan of the Communist Manifesto certainly isn't "conservative", "returning to the gold standard" is also NOT a liberal position nor is anti-federalism necessarily a liberal position either, in the US; the American left-wing is actually generally pro-federalist and against the gold standard, whereas the right-wing is likely to support "states' rights" and more likely to support a gold or silver standard. Moreover, there is such a thing as what an American would classify as a "social conservative" who is an atheist (Christopher Hitchens, for instance), so the anti-religion thing isn't exactly exclusive to the left wing either.

In short, this guy seems to have views from all across the spectrum; even if he were to claim he was "liberal" or "conservative", I would want editors to be aware that he does supposedly hold some very conservative views in terms of the US political scene alongside his many alleged liberal ones, and that this should be made clear for, well, clarity's sake. Most of all, I want to make sure we don't get too bad of an edit war on this thing, because this is the kind of politically-involved story that will get one side accusing the other having spawned a monster and then the next side gets indignant and then next thing you know, the article's locked and people are wishing they hadn't touched the Talk page. :P

Also... honestly, the fact that he thinks there is a "5% literacy rate" in any part of Arizona... pure OR speculation here, but I'm wondering if by "literacy" he means "hip to the same Truth [he is]". Particularly since the Congresswoman he shot apparently was in favor of public education and against the oft-criticized No Child Left Behind act (hardly surprising for a Democrat, as that's a liberal/Democratic standby) meanwhile, he seems to have been bizarrely fixated on a lack of "literacy" at the same time as he was claiming that a community college was "unconstitutional" (an argument so out of the mainstream of either side that I've never come across it before, to be honest). Honestly, he sounds just flat-out psychotic (I don't mean that as a generic pejorative, either; I mean it literally, as in, paranoid schizophrenic or the like, seeing conspiracies everywhere, assuming he himself has the only access to The Truth, described as having been prone to "random outbursts" and problems with authority figures since his teen years, etc.).

HOWEVER, even though this is an easy, obvious assumption to make, keep in mind what I am - that it's still an opinion! I won't be surprised if he gets some kind of mental illness diagnosis, I'm sure many people won't, BUT until anything is official, be careful about adding such speculation! Even if others make it, make sure it's clear who is making it, and what if any basis they have for it; if you don't know, either don't add it, or add that it "isn't clear".

Let's try to keep this article super-accurate so we have fewer headeaches! :) 68.202.85.105 (talk) 08:46, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't doubt that Caiti Parker knew him, but I doubt that she's qualified to make assessments of other people's politics. Anarchism is generally considered left-wing; this doesn't mean that it has anything to do with modern liberalism. Quite the opposite, in fact. Her "left-wing" assessment could very well be accurate (although Mein Kampf is hardly a left-wing manifesto). But the "liberal" part of it seems speculative at best, and uninformed at worst.
In any event, it's impossible to judge what his politics were based on the information at hand. As you said, it's quite possible that he suffered from psychosis, and I'm sure he will be tested for it in the coming days. StanHater (talk) 23:49, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Registered INDEPENDENT

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_78272a23-fe75-5bee-ba38-f8171cda3fb7.html --Gregory pecker (talk) 18:26, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Photoshopped hoax of registration page from AZ Secretary of State googuse (talk) 16:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Give me 10 minutes I can make President Obama a Republican too. Let's be honest, he was a psycho. 75.150.245.242 (talk) 17:36, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Is that really photoshopped? If so, that's pathetic. Some people will do anything to make reality fit their own narrative. StanHater (talk) 20:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no way you could access this information unless you had his VoterID number or Drivers License information.Goodmorninworld9 (talk) 23:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)goodmorninworld9[reply]

Redirects

The constant redirects from this article are not proper wikipedia policy. If anyone feels that the article should not belong then please do a formal request to delete the article, otherwise the redirects are obviously being challenged.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:32, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It had been merged and redirected to 2011 Tucson shooting#Primary suspect, quite properly per custom and policy, and I agree with that decision at this point.
Going through a seven-day AfD with a current event like this is usually not the best way. I'd rather recommend trying to find quick consensus here.
Jojhutton, do you think WP:BLP1E does not apply here, and if so, why?
Amalthea 23:46, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Too late: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jared Lee Loughner. Amalthea 23:50, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
BLP1E always applies, but you and I have been around long enough to know that deletion discussions do not always agree with that assessment. Best to get more opinions than the opinion of just one or two editors.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:52, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, was trying to use that as a seed for discussion. Well, let's see how the AfD goes. I agree BTW that this is bound to be a standalone article in a couple of weeks, but IMHO it's best developed as part of the shooting article. Amalthea 00:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just sitting back and watching and knowing how this will end eventually. With the article standing alone and whole lot of wasted time. It happens every time.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:22, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies if there was a more expedient process for this. I had just been through the AfD for Reactions to shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and was aware that there had already been some discussion about this above. KimChee (talk) 00:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I knew where this was going. No need to apologize. I'm not gonna get bent out of shape over this trivial subject. I just know in the end how this will end up. I've seen it before. Several early editors want to speedy redirect and then just when it begins to look like the article will be deleted or redirected, everything turns on a dime and a huge amount of editors start wanting to keep it. I can't explain it, it just happens that way. Maybe this one will be different.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Medical history

The Columbine shooter was rejected from the military because he was on anti-depressants. I wonder if this guy was too. Would his medical records be closed till the trial? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.42.133.231 (talk) 01:41, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge

I propose that this article's content be merged to 2011 Tucson shooting. There isn't anything of substance in the current version of this article. The media has successfully rooted out this individual's past history, but almost none of it seems relevant to the reason he's getting a mention on Wikipedia. He's notable for a single act, an act that already has an article. A redirect seems appropriate here; a separate article does not. --MZMcBride (talk) 07:01, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BLP1E supports the sustaining of this article. It states: "If the event is significant and the individual's role within it is substantial, a separate biography may be appropriate. Individuals notable for well-documented events, such as John Hinckley, Jr., fit into this category. The significance of an event or individual should be indicated by how persistent the coverage is in reliable sources." Event is extremely significant with this person having a substantial role. --Oakshade (talk) 20:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The outcome of the afd? You mean your preferred outcome, considering your reaction when I closed it the other way. --slakr\ talk / 09:41, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If the AfD runs its full 8 day course, I have no issue with that. --Oakshade (talk) 09:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That means that anybody can demand to keep open a WP:POLICY-violating BLP for 8 days by merely initiating an AFD. This is Wikilawyering of the worst sort. The proper course of action is to redirect this article first, then debate. Abductive (reasoning) 14:13, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not only is there very strong contention against the claim that this article is a violation of BLP, but there's strong contention that WP:BLP1E supports the sustaining of this article. --Oakshade (talk) 17:44, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, Abductive. It's especially a perk for prosecutors wanting to paint a suspect as the villain before it even goes to trial. --slakr\ talk / 23:29, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What does that have to do with the cost of tea in China? Most of the recent comments at the AFD have leaned toward keep, and this merge proposal appears to be a forum for many of the deflationists to vote again. One voice one vote. Let the AFD take its course, rather than attempting to exhaust all other means.--Jojhutton (talk) 13:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a vote. Even if there was only one person correctly pointing out that WP:BLP is a policy, that person is correct and the page must be redirected. Abductive (reasoning) 14:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He's not a suspect; he did it. This is what people in the AFD were discussing when you closed it without reading their comments. The difference is that right now he's a suspect and thus should be redirected. --slakr\ talk / 23:33, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree, there was talk about redirects or keeping the article in the AfD no place was there a discussion of a merge. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:04, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with you. This is WP:GAME the system. Your AfD didn't work, and so you want it to be in your way. Well, this is not how it works. --Hinata talk 20:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion was made after someone had closed the AfD though, it was reopened soon after. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:11, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
it doesn't matter, we should respect the AfD's outcome. --Hinata talk 20:13, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
An AfD and a merge discussion are two diffrent things, both discussions should be respected. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:14, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But not when the exact same editors make comments on its contents on here, and at the AfD. This is a WP:IDONTLIKEIT issue --Hinata talk 20:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But the editors are not voting on the same thing, a redirect and a merge are two diffrent things. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh... but look at the top. That was similar when the AfD appeared... and ended. So my point remains valid. --Hinata talk 20:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And what if he's innocent? "Oops, our bad?" --slakr\ talk / 23:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, he's a suspect—not a convict. --slakr\ talk / 23:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge It is not the quantity of activities an individual is notable for that merits their own Wikipedia page, but how profound their actions are. Congresswomen Giffords might not have been as internationally famous as John F. Kennedy or John Lennon, but that doesn't mean the shooting is any less significant. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, Seung-Hui Cho, and John Allen Muhammad never even killed anyone of any degree of fame nore are they known for anything notable outside of their murders yet they each get their own pages, albeit the Columbine shooters have to share a page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.13.17.116 (talk) 20:53, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose mergeThis man's murders have already generated articles connecting the lack of effective mental health care with violence[1] which, along with the Sheriff's assertions that Lochner is mentally deranged, are connecting mental illness,mental health treatment and violence in a way that makes him, as a person, more notable, I think. Usually,like with John Hinckley, Jr., the mental health stuff does not come out for quite awhile; with Louchner it was almost immediate. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 21:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Again, he's a suspect—not a convict. --slakr\ talk / 23:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge (weakly) - but why the hurry? I agree that this would be a BLP1E issue but for the Hinkley rule (not just as a rule for its own sake, but the logic of why we follow the sources' lead in profiling high profile assassins). Is the nearly-successful assassinations of a US member of congress that prominent? Usually not, I think, but in this case perhaps because of the nature of the event. Mr. Grantevans2, above, has a very good argument regarding the mental health concern and the focus of the media on the person as an individual with his own issues to report, but I think the question of poor mental health care leading to violence could also be treated in the article on the shootings as one of the wider concerns. Anyway, whatever the result is here, it might bear revisiting in another two or three months once this is out of the current events news cycle. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge: Hinckley, this guy aint. At the moment, this is a BLP1E case, as all coverage of Loughner is in regards to this shooting. Maybe in a few weeks or months, once it drops off the news cycles, we can examine to see if there's any long-lasting notability. Sceptre (talk) 23:10, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge This falls under WP:BLP1E and WP:CRYSTAL. Maybe he will go down in history (for what I will choose not to speculate, lest I be attacked by various sides of the political spectrum or whatever). But we don't know that now. I doubt there is enough information on him to write a sufficiently decent article anyway. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 23:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge - I believe that since the 1 noted exception to BLP1E is a political assassin this should be given a lot more thought. As Sceptre states above he isn't Hinckley, but just because he doesn't have an unbelievably elaborate back story as to his reasons for attempting to kill a political leader, it doesn't make him any less of a assassin. Cheers — WilsBadKarma (Talk) 23:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Giffords wasn't assassinated though so that does not make him an assassin. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
...and he's still a suspect—not a convicted assassin. --slakr\ talk / 23:54, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose merge - So he is only notable for one act. So what? How about Hinkley? Bradley Manning? Right now, events are still ongoing, this article is still developing quickly, and the encyclopedia would be best served if this article were allowed to develop, rather than smothering it out and forcing all material into the parent, while inevitably losing other supplementary biographical information. - hahnchen 23:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS applies here, we can only go with what is out there right now saying that this will quickly develop is WP:CRYSTAL. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He's still a suspect, and our policies state that since he's just a suspect, he's not yet notable enough to have his own article. --slakr\ talk / 23:54, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • OPPOSE Perhaps in a few weeks if nothing of interest has been added to his article then we can talk merge, but for now, I wouldn't want additions to HIM cluttering up the article about THE EVENT. Plus, in time we will need to add info about his trial etc which may not fit nicely into the event's article or which would be more appropriately placed in his. Thmazing (talk) 00:06, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge per WP:BLP1E. The article on the incident will suffice. Before this isolated incident (i.e. single event, i.e. BLP1E), Loughner wasn't even remotely notable. I'd suggest merging, redirecting, and then fully protecting the article for a few months. SnottyWong confabulate 00:53, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. MZM, sorry, but I think this one's got legs. See my post on Talk:Sarah Palin, too. Cheers, Jack Merridew 00:55, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support merge He is not a household name, nor should he be turned into one. Another way to view this: If this were an encyclopedia in book form, would he actually have his on article? No he wouldn't; he would be mentioned under the event itself. A section can simply be set aside in 2011 Tucson shooting referring to him, and it can be updated with any relevant information about his upcoming trial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.251.112.134 (talk) 01:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Put on hold Let's wait until this story calms down, and then it'll be more obvious what is appropriate to do. At the moment, a discussion like this will remain a stalemate. It'll also be an eyesore to those wanting to discuss other improvements to this article (or the content that could be merged). In another week or so, it may produce a different result. Shaliya waya (talk) 01:27, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Note

Abductive, please don't revert again to the redirect. If people disagree with the AfD result, it should be taken to DRV. If reverting continues and the page is protected, it will stop everyone from improving it, so please go to DRV instead. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 09:05, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or I guess at this point just update the WP:BLP1E policy and/or remove it. :P Same goes for that big bold part at the bottom of the WP:CRIMINAL section. "Guilty until proven innocent" is what's fashionable in the news nowadays anyway. *shrug* We can issue a retraction later if the poor guy turns out to be innocent; then, no damage done, right? :| --slakr\ talk / 09:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Scott has reopened the AfD, declaring it improperly closed, so it can be decided there. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 09:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Redirect' : We should let the AfD run its full course. This has nothing to do with "Guilty until proven innocent", as he is being delcared a suspect, not a convict in a case that has made worldwide news. Orenthal James Simpson and William Kennedy Smith were both acquitted of the crimes with which they were criminally charged, and they still have articles about them in Wikipedia which talk about their cases. Assuming that this article is redirected, which I don't think it should be, the article about the 2001 Tucson shooting will more than likely discuss Loughner anyway.--Jax 0677 (talk) 15:54, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Each were notable apart from their alleged crimes. This man is not. --slakr\ talk / 23:40, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding what's "fashionable nowadays", it used to be much worse than this. Decades ago, newspapers would publish pictures of arrested suspects and caption them "the killer" and such as that. They've reined it in over time and are more careful with their wording now. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The AFD has been closed as not merging it. So could we please respect that.--BabbaQ (talk) 19:16, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely not true, I did not endorse keep over merge in closing the AfD. -- Y not? 19:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. Abductive (reasoning) 19:34, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - According to WP:ONEVENT, "assassins of major political leaders" are generally notable enough to have their own articles. Based on that, I think this discussion should boil down to whether one of the 535 members of the United States Congress counts as a "major political leader" or not. As someone in Giffords' district, my "vote" would be too biased, so I'm leaving it as just a comment. --MarkGyver (talk) 20:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May I point out that Giffords wasn't assassinated? Unless we choose to extend this to "attempted assassins" but that brings out a large influx of others that really don't belong in an encyclopedia. If we choose not to, then that means we shift to "is a federal judge a major political leader". For that I have to argue (respectfully) not. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 23:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Based on the AFD closing rationale, consensus for redirect shall be determined on this page, correct? On a related note, should we make a {{dontCloseThisDamnAFDBecauseYoullBeMakingThingsWorse}}? --slakr\ talk / 23:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Although the article has expanded I so far have seen nothing relevant that is not already in the main article here, unless someone wants to pull a rabbit of info out of a hat here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose merge The craigslist killer was not merged. We cannot act arbitarily and capriciously. The suspect is along the same lines as Hinckley, who qualifies almost as a matter of policy. Hakkapeliitta (talk) 01:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Categories

Okay, if Loughner can be classified as a failed assassin prior to conviction, then why couldn't he be considered a mass murderer? If a conviction is required for one, then shouldn't it be required for both? - Janers0217 (talk) 10:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As he hasn't been tried yet, isn't it contempt of court to refer to him as either?--82.207.96.223 (talk) 12:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "contempt of court", it's just not appropriate for wikipedia to label him in ways not yet legally demonstrated. At the moment he's an accused killer or accused assassin. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:14, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I am concerned, he is the assassin. It really does not matter what American law says, if reliable sources say he killed all these people – even foreign reliable sources – then Wikipedia should report that and not be restricted by legal principals. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 17:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can tell the vast majority of reliable sources refer to the topic as "suspect" or "alleged shooter" -- see e.g. Google news (and disregard the blogs). So no, he may neither be called murderer nor failed assassin since that would be both unverifiable and libelous. Amalthea 19:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gabrielle Giffords's YouTube channel is subscribed to Loughner's.

Gabrielle Giffords's official YouTube channel ( http://www.youtube.com/user/giffords2 ) is subscribed to only two channels. One is the official YouTube channel of Congressman Ike Skelton, and the other is that of Jared Lee Loughner ( http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10 ). 188.102.7.187 (talk) 12:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Holy crap your right, that is, if the youtube channel that is suppose to be Giffords, really is hers. Sometimes people set up fake youtube channels, cliaming to be other people, but this one looks legit. I wonder if there is a reliable source that will back this up, because we can't add it to the article because it may beconstrued as original research.--Jojhutton (talk) 13:03, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would need a reliable source, and I haven't seen reliable proof that the subscription pre-dated the shooting--the idea that the subscription doesn't show up in recent activity is not real proof, that's not uncommon either due to how the channel is setup or just youtube lag.--Milowent • talkblp-r 19:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
This is discussed at Talk:2011_Tucson_shooting#Gabrielle_Giffords_was_subscribed_to_Jared_Lee_Loughner.27s_YouTube_channel.2C_classitup10. Probably not significant at the moment.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 12:59, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suspect being a liberal/left-winger

Somebody keeps adding that this guy was a radical liberal, despite the lack of reliable sources corroborating it. The Telegraph article says nothing about him being a left or right winger for that matter. So please do not add it unless it is explicitly stated in a reliable source. Thank you. Likeminas (talk) 20:38, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've given a WP:OR note to an IP editor for adding it once. I'd really hate to think we have to ask to have the page semi'ed because the political bickering is going to get in the way of factual updates... --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 20:43, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
See Talk:2011_Tucson_shooting. Loughner's politics are all over the place. Omit until we have better sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:47, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
too late! It didn't last 5 mins till somebody added back into the article. I wish people would use the talk page a little more. Likeminas (talk) 20:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
NYT quoted a classmate that said he held liberal views in high school... what's wrong with that statement in the article? -- Y not? 20:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Did you take the time to look at the main article's talk page? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2011_Tucson_shooting#Left_Wing_Radical.3F
Did you know that other sources claim 'he was prone to right wing rants, thus, contradicting that quote from her old classmate? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/09/jared-lee-loughner-rightwing-rants
How about we wait till things become more clear and then we add it into the article? Does that sound reasonable?
Likeminas (talk) 21:06, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've added it back per WP:Verifiability#Newspaper and magazine blogs. Clearly the new york times and the Phoenix NewTimes are both reliable and verifiable.--Hu12 (talk) 21:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is all ultimately sourced to a Twitter comment from a former classmate of four years ago, and without noting Loughners later confused (and arguably right-wing) rhetoric on YouTube etc is misleading and unbalanced. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:12, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I looked at that talk page. I welcome the addition of conflicting sourced information. Let's be inclusive and err on the side of completeness. Whatever the NYT reports is good enough for me, even if Twitter was involved. -- Y not? 21:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

And, @Likeminas, [2] was just as bad as [3], so there's no need to get self-righteous. -- Y not? 21:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is certainly unbalanced to post a quote (based on a tweet) claiming he was a radical liberal while ignoring The Guardian's article that says he was prone to Righ-wing rants.
IMO, we need more sources to sort things out. Likeminas (talk) 21:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have understood that he is in fact a Nazi! Now, what I would really like to see is a thorough discussion on his political beliefs and affiliations in this article. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:18, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. – Besides, even if he is not, the speculation of him being a Nazi / American Renaissance follower is notable on its own right. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 21:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So make a separate section about his political beliefs, throw all this shit together, and let's develop it. Good deal? -- Y not? 21:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
From The Guardian: "At Mountain View high school, Loughner ran with a crowd that smoked marijuana most days – a common enough pastime in Arizona – and occasionally binged on tequila. His friends considered him fun but saw a serious side as Loughner immersed himself in the conspiracy theories popular with a section of the American far right – not least that the government engineered the 9/11 terrorist attacks". [4] AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Four years ago? those tweets were at or around the time of the shooting. The New york times and the Phoenix NewTimes are both reliable and verifiable and recent.--Hu12 (talk) 21:21, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The Twitter comments are from someone who knew him four years ago. They are describing what they knew of his politics then. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
@ Y I'm not being self-righteous but when something is extensively being discussed not only here but also at the main article and you simply add the stuff into the article without even discussing then it become a problem. I was hoping that you as an administrator would undertand that. Likeminas (talk) 21:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Did you see me warring over it? I added it once with a better cite, because "as an administrator" I thought that's all that is required before something can be added, not a pre-approval from the talk page, which I didn't even look at (this section, anyway) before adding. You, on the other hand, reverted inappropriately here. -- Y not? 21:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit summary [5] tells me you knew this was being disputed.
yet you still didn't want to look at the TP?
So, yea next time might wanna take a look at the talk page, especially when you're adding potentially controversial stuff into the article of a WP:BLP that was just recently created. But I guessed you already knew that.  ;) Likeminas (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
No, just me trying to be fair, since it's obviously going to be a sensitive point. -- Y not? 21:46, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
She knew him for more than four years, in high school and college. The New york times and the Phoenix NewTimes are cleary both reliable and verifiable sources. The case your attempting to make for exclusion is invalid, when the content meets wikipedias inclusion criteria. --Hu12 (talk) 21:37, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
And to balance this, we include the Guardian quote about how he "immersed himself in the conspiracy theories popular with a section of the American far right"? This is the point, the 'left-wing' quote has repeatedly been inserted without being given any context, and without noting the contradictory sources. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Indiscriminatly deleting validly sourced, verifiable content which meets wikipedias inclusion criteria does not create balance. Nor does deleting the 'left-wing' sourced statement (with attribution) from reliable sources create "Undue weight" whatsoever. see "Reference Indiscriminatly deleted" below. --Hu12 (talk) 22:36, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Do I really have to cite WP:BRD? There was nothing 'indiscriminate' in deleting something that had repeatedly been added and then removed with a request to discuss on talk. The talk page discussion was ongoing. If you don't check article talk pages an history before making edits to controversial articles, you aren't really in a very strong position to complain about reverts. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:51, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There are sources that claim he fell for Right-wing rhetoric as mentioned above. How are you going to add both views in a NPOV manner?
Also the entire classmate's statement says he was leftwing when I knew him in hs & college, 3 years ago. So he may have changed, who knows Might have changed politically? Changed as in formerly a liberal and now a radical right-winger? These questions we don't know. But if we're to add the classmate's tweet then we should include the entire context and not cherry-pick what we personally like or dislike. Likeminas (talk) 22:57, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reference Indiscriminatly deleted

Caitie Parker, who claimed she knew the suspect in high school four years earlier, described him as having been ""left wing", quite liberal", [1] and a "political radical." [2][3][4][5]

  1. ^ Eric Lipton; Charlie Savage; Scott Shane (2011-01-08). "Arizona Suspect's Recent Acts Offer Hints of Alienation". The New York Times. Retrieved 2011-01-09.
  2. ^ King, James. "Jared Loughner, Alleged Shooter in Gabrielle Giffords Attack, Described by Classmate as "Left-Wing Pothead"". Phoenix NewTimes. Retrieved 10 January 2011.
  3. ^ Klein, Aaron. "Assassin's politics lean 'left wing, quite liberal'". Phoenix NewTimes. Retrieved 08 January 2011. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
  4. ^ Sheppard, Noel. "ABC Interviews Friend of Giffords Shooter, Ignores Her Claim He's Liberal". NewsBusters. Retrieved 09 January 2011. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
  5. ^ Sheppard, Noel. "Media covering up alleged shooter's liberal politics?". NewsBusters. Retrieved 09 January 2011. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)
Recommend rejecting citations from Newsbusters; they fail WP:RS as a matter of record. NYT, however, is about as reputable and verifiable as they come (these days, anyway, IMO...). --Alan the Roving Ambassador (talk) 23:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Jared Lee Loughner: Left-Wing, Right-Wing, or Just Plain Nutcase?

I found these articles that might help with this issue.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110109/tr_ac/7569322_jared_lee_loughner_leftwing_rightwing_or_just_plain_nutcase

and this article's piece look like it could be added into the article Conservatives looking to label Loughner as liberal have also pointed to Tweets from one apparent former friend who wrote he had once been "very liberal" and added, "he was leftwing when I knew him in hs & college, 3 years ago. So he may have changed, who knows."

Ultimately, it seems illegitimate to tie Loughner to the mainstream right or mainstream left, as his beliefs were well within the realm of the fringe. Indeed, Loughner appears to have simply been a disturbed individual who lacked a coherent political philosophy other than a deep-seated anti-government sentiment. 21:49 http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20028022-503544.html Likeminas (talk) 21:49, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Fringe extremist certainly fits. I suspect many right wingers (anti-communist, right wing classics like Mein Kampf and Ayn Rand's We the Living are two of his favorite books) might also have read the The Communist Manifesto out of curiosity. His Democratic Party target (the ultimate proof of his political direction) certainly indicates a more right wing agenda at present, but he's all over the map, IOW basically an unstable extremist. Under certain influences he could have ended up as a left wing extremist, but Arizona would have been a bad place for him to live! -- Brangifer (talk) 22:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
He shot up his district's Representative. No reason so far to suspect that a different party affiliation would have saved her the trouble. -- Y not? 22:47, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. We need to find a way to add these contradicting sources in a way that balances both views. Likeminas (talk) 22:57, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

IPA

The IPA was added because of the different pronunciation of the English words cough and tough. Media reports seem to agree on the "cough" pronunciation of Loughner, but there is room for debate about how to pronounce the r. I had a look in the dictionary for laughter and it ended in ə, but the main issue is consistency, because the IPA is in 2011 Tucson shooting as well.--♦IanMacM♦ (talk to me) 20:39, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Band name

So the Caitie Parker tweets which have been widely reported on include one saying she was in a band with Loughner. Has this band name been reported?--Milowent • talkblp-r 22:02, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Removing television shrink comments

I am removing the television psychologist's comments. It is the sole mention of motivation, by a psychologist who has never interviewed Loughner, and thus is obviously just a guess as to his motivation. Adelson Velsky Landis (talk) 22:03, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The content removed had nothing to do with motivation. Perhaps you removed the wrong section? Also The comments are by a psychiatrist not a psychologist. I'll put it back since apparently you were trying to remove something else. Mr.Grantevans2 (talk) 23:53, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dreaming

I just removed an OR addition of a book about "concious dreaming". Yes, he might mean "conscious dreaming", but he clearly writes "conscience dreaming". Does conscience dreaming make sense? No, but then much of what he writes doesn't make much sense either. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:19, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of whether he meant "conscious dreaming" or not, the book is totally off-topic unless and until it is discussed in mainstream media sources etc. AndyTheGrump (talk)

Atheist?

From WP:BLPCAT: "Categories regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question; and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources."

The Guardian is being cited [6] for this statement: "Loughner also stood out as a vigorous atheist in a religious part of the world.". To me, that doesn't seem to be 'self-identified', and on that basis, I am removing the description of Loughner as 'an atheist' from the 'Views' section. If someone can find a source for self-identified atheism, and show why it is relevant, it can of course go back in. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian is a trustable source yes?

Then What's the problem? --Protostan (talk) 23:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this self-identification, or someone else's description of him as a "vigorous atheist"? It isn't at all clear. It is also referring to a time two or three years ago. In any case, it has yet to be established that Loughner's religious beliefs (or lack of) have any relevance to his notability. Is it normal to report the religious affiliation of suspects of criminal investigations in Wikipedia articles? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:59, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I restored this inadvertently in an (edit conflict), but do view the Guardian as a *highly* reliable source... off to look at the state of the article as of now; edit conflicts about ;) Cheers, Jack Merridew 00:03, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I'm not questioning the Guardian as a source, I'm questioning whether it can be read as a source for 'self-identified' atheism: it isn't quoting Loughner, so we don't know how they arrived at the description. In any case, even if it established as being self-identified, it also has to be shown to be relevant. I'll ask again: Is it normal to report the religious affiliation of suspects of criminal investigations in Wikipedia articles? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:15, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In this vein I have a relevent question: what does a person do to become identified by wikipedia as an atheist phiosopher? --Protostan (talk) 00:24, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Can we please stay on topic? AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:26, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is on topic, if you don't know just say so. --Protostan (talk) 00:29, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop being obtuse. If it is on topic then explain why. (you could also explain what a 'phiosopher' is) AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:31, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to figue out if the shooter qualifies as this sort of philosopher. --Protostan (talk) 00:34, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Utter nonsense. This isn't a forum for random musings. Either stay on topic, or go elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Any references claiming he is an atheist need to be removed because it's speculative and prejudicial. Also, various news sources are providing photographic evidence that he worshipped the occult [7] Zillimeter (talk) 00:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, he never stated this in any released materials, and the conclusion of one media outlet is not reasonable here. The sourced statement that he is "critical of religion" seems perfectly fine to me to describe his religious views. Flodded (talk) 01:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, folks, ya think we could edit any faster? (edit conflict) more than twice a minute? Anyway, there seem to be ample sources re his atheism, and it's gone to and fro a bunch; anyone at 3RR, yet? Jack Merridew 01:06, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Violations of WP:BLPCAT are excluded from WP:3RR, I believe... AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:08, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Explicitly excluded from WP:3RR: "Removal of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material that violates the policy on biographies of living persons (BLP). What counts as exempt under BLP can be controversial. Consider reporting to the BLP noticeboard instead of relying on this exemption." AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:11, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Both sources now listed just state THEMSELVES that he is an atheist, without any attribution; they are not quoting other people. The people who knew him describe him as "critical of religion" and such, which is by no means a synonym for atheist. Besides, see the WP:BLPCAT quote at the top of this section. Loughner has never publicly identified with atheism. There are no people, other than media outlets (and Wikipedians) calling him an atheist. I am reverting the edit which says "(The article quotes people as having said he was an atheist)", because the article does NOT do so. Flodded (talk) 01:13, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a quote Flodded "Classmates and neighbours described Loughner as "creepy" and "an emotional cripple,"...They said he was an atheist"
Again, still against WP:BLPCAT. They believed him to be an atheist...quite possibly for the same reasons that you seem to be. Also, that quote was not in either of the linked articles, as far as I could tell. Now, if you want to state that people who knew him DESCRIBED him as an atheist, referencing that quote you just provided, I would be quite happy to see that in the article, because it belongs there. Just stating outright that he is an atheist, however, does not, given currently available sources. Flodded (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So we've got two major news sources and a people who knew him agreeing. What more evidence is needed? --Protostan (talk) 01:17, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the subject self-identifying would help. Has he? I haven't seen any such materials. The two news sources you cited did NOT quote anyone as stating he is an atheist; they appear to have arrived at the conclusion by the same means that you did. And people that knew him agreeing? I could see that being grounds to identify him as an atheist (especially since it's hard for him to release information at the moment for obvious reasons), but where are these links to people who knew him stating that he is an atheist? Being critical of religion is not being an atheist. Flodded (talk) 01:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Category 'American Atheists' also needs removing from the bottom of the page.
Can I remind people that WP:BLPCAT requires evidence of 'relevance with regard to mentioning religious beliefs in a BLP. So far nobody has offered any whatsoever, as far as I can see. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:22, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise suggestion: How about we remove the ", an atheist," from the first sentence, and change "Classmates noted that Loughner was critical of religion." to read "Classmates said Loughner was an atheist and noted that he was critical of religion." It makes sense that the religious-related descriptions should go together anyways. Flodded (talk) 01:40, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from Gfiumara, 11 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} In the last paragraph of the Views section, it mentions a post on Myspace "the morning of the shooting," but previous paragraphs don't mention a shooting. This should say something like "the morning of his 2011 arrest" or "the morning of the 2011 Tucson shooting" since the shooting is not yet in context in the article. gfiumara (talk) 00:37, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Makes sense, I made it reference the date as requested. Flodded (talk) 00:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Missing information from 2011 Tucson shooting page

There was a lot of information about the arrest on that page that wasn't here. It seemed appropriate to copy much of it verbatim into the "2011 arrest" section. Is there any reason we shouldn't be copying pretty much anything directly related to him from there? It seems there are other pieces where there's more information about Loughner on the 2011 shooting page, but this is supposed to be the main article about Loughner...I see no reason not to flesh this out with anything relevant that shows up there. Flodded (talk) 00:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Jared_Lee_Loughner&oldid=407187938"