Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

Proposal: bring WP:Images into the MOS

I propose making WP:Images part of the Manual of Style to compliment MOS:Images and alongside WP:Image use policy which is a similar but unrelated policy. I did not get any comments above, so for now I am simplifying the proposition. The suggested title, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images, is already occupied but I think this can be moved over.

Wikipedia:Images → Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images

Comments wanted and indeed needed. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 11:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. It's a stub, but images are just critical to the project, and we don't use them well in terms of placement and sizing. Guidance on these practices should be as high-profile as possible, and the best way to achieve that is to bring it into the central page. We do want MoS central to be more succinct, but in this case, I think there's a compelling case for presenting image usage (such as is not in the policy WP:IUP) here. Tony (talk) 13:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I hope to both make it clearer and more succinct by bringing together disparate pages. Given how long I've put this to tender, I might see if I institute it. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 13:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, so I've been bold. I will tidy incoming links etc. up after a couple of days if there's no opposition to the move as instituted. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone that dosen't write the MoS considers it a largely irreverent walled garden. The only thing that you did here, by moving this, was turn it from an ill read guideline to an ill read guideline that MoS zealots can now use to beat people over the head with if they don't like something.

If you want to tell us how to write, go ahead (we largely ignore you anyways, and still wind up with good content). However, none of you, as far as I can tell, are file workers, so you're effecting other people's work without asking them. That's not nice, and it's not proper process.

Personally, I would have objected had I been asked, but now that it's done, I suppose it dosen't matter. It's not like the MoS sticker will change anything for anyone, except, of course, the aforementioned people that use the MoS as a weapon. Sven Manguard Wha? 03:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, either "it doesn't matter" or we will "use the MoS as a weapon". It can't be both. If there really is a consensus for making the MoS an irrelevant walled garden (and perhaps there should be, but there isn't), then that consensus should either make the MoS an essay, or change the WP:GUIDES policy to make guidelines the same as essays. One way or another, it shouldn't permit us to promote the illusion that the MoS matters. If that really is an illusion (what we really have is self-proclaimed experts throughout Wikipedia who feel no need to consult the MoS or anyone else – I don't know enough about Sven Manguard to know if he fits that broad category.) But I'm glad that at least you came here to talk about it, rather than simply trying to speak for the rest of Wikipedia unilaterally elsewhere. So maybe there will be some kind of consensus. Art LaPella (talk) 04:58, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

They're not mutally exclusive, and your interpretation of what I'm saying is off.

• For many, many people, the MoS is not something that they care about when they do their work. Plenty of good writers have come to the conclusion that if they write well, and cite properly, that almost no one will care that they used the wrong length of dash or that they used Moses' instead of Moses's. They see the MoS as a book of esoteric guidelines that interferes with the objective of trying to write a high quality article far more often than it helps them.
• A small group of users (often users who also write the MoS) go around and try to force the MoS on everyone. This ranges from quietly fixing the length of dashes (perfectly acceptable), to telling users that their writing sucks because they broke some MoS procedure or another (not acceptable), to harassment, fights, etc. (definitely not acceptable). The more radical of these MoS pushers, the ones I call zealots, are part of the reason that many have stayed away from the MoS.
• As to the specific phrase "self-proclaimed experts throughout Wikipedia who feel no need to consult the MoS or anyone else", that's totally not what I meant. I write college level academic papers, I know how to write well, when I choose to write, and I know how to cite sources. Thus far my writing, limited as it has been, has not received complaints, and yet I've never read most of the MoS, and treat it with disdain largely because of having come across the zealots. I'm not a "self-proclaimed expert", I'm a decent writer who dosen't use the MoS. I don't "feel no need to consult the MoS or anyone else", I frequently ask other people to proofread my work and make corrections. Your categorization of people that don't cling to the MoS like small children cling to teddy bears as being arrogant and isolated is completely incorrect, and is a good part of the problem.
• As for the MoS itself, it is useful as a teaching tool, especially for people not experienced as writers, and I'm not advocating for it to be destroyed. I am telling you, however, that the MoS is being hurt by association with all the zealots. I see it often. People hate the MoS not because they often disagree with it, but because it gets stuffed down their throats by proselytizers. Fix that, and people might actually pay more attention to the MoS. Sven Manguard Wha? 07:43, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Not an issue that needs to be discussed at this juncture. Personally I hope to simplify the guidelines, thus easing the zealot problem (since every good wikilawyer likes complicated wording). Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 08:57, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I've encountered zealots stirring up unnecessary trouble, often based on an extreme interpretation of the MoS that wasn't really intended. I've also encountered editors who insist their quirk is proper English, without needing guidelines, citations, or "other people to proofread my work and make corrections". Art LaPella (talk) 23:28, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Scare quotes in titles. Single or double quotes

The Manual of Style does not discuss scare quotes in titles. WP:TITLE does not discuss scare quotes at all.

It concerns these pages:

• "Occupy" protests
• List of "Occupy" protest locations
• Template:"Occupy" protests‎

Please see the discussions concerning the 'Occupy' protests and their article titles:

• Talk:"Occupy" protests#Single quotes versus double quotes
• commons:Category talk:'Occupy' protests#Single quotes versus double quotes. Rules of grammar

Please update the MOS after discussion. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, although there's no specific discussion of "scare quotes" in WP:TITLE, it's written that the title should appear as if it were in text, quoting WP:SURPRISE, and, in text, WP:PUNCT does specify that double-quotes should be used for scare quotes. In fact, if we are considering that "Occupy", in this context, is mentioning the word rather than using the word, we could make a good argument that the display-title should be "Occupy protests", potentially leaving the internal title at Occupy protests. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:01, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

WP:PUNCT does not indicate that double quotes should be used for scare quotes. If certain stretched interpretations of WP:PUNCT make it seem that way, then it needs to be changed for titles at least. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it does. From the first sentence of WP:PUNCT#Quotation marks,

The term quotation in the material below also includes other uses of quotation marks such as those for titles of songs, chapters, episodes, unattributable aphorisms, literal strings, "scare-quoted" passages, and constructed examples.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:07, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

You are stretching. Nowhere is there a prohibition against single quotes in WP:PUNCT for scare quotes. The use of scare quotes is not discussed in WP:PUNCT, nor anywhere else on the WP:MOS page. And single quotes are required for quotes within quotes. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm not stretching, at all. The following sentence of the guideline states:

Enclose quotations with double quotation marks (Bob said, "Jim ate the apple."). Enclose quotations within quotations with single quotation marks (Bob said, "Did Jim say 'I ate the apple' after he left?").

Even under WP:SYNTHESIS, we are allowed to combine two statements from the same source:

1. "Scare quotes" are quotes.
2. Quotes are included in double quotation marks.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

That section is referring to regular quotations specifically, not scare quotes. Anybody can go there, read it in context, and see for themselves. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

All (well, almost all) the examples are regular quotes. However, the lede section of WP:PUNCT says, in effect, that "quotes are quotes". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

And this discussion should occur on the talk page of WP:TITLE, rather than this, the main MOS talk page. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:15, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but just a reminder that as a matter of course, any thread that touches on the other page (wp:title or wp:mos) should be flagged there, for basic coordination. Thanks. 13:17, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I've posted a note on the WP:TITLE talk page. Roger (talk) 13:32, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

(unindent). Discussion of scare quotes should probably start here since this is the overall Manual of Style. The use of scare quotes in titles is another location where scare quotes are used. Roger left a note at the WP:TITLE talk page directing people here.

We should probably use what reliable news sources use most for scare quotes in titles. The news media usually use single quotes instead of double quotes when referring to the 'Occupy' protests. There are many examples from major news sources:

• Voight, K. (October 7, 2011) Beyond Wall Street: 'Occupy' protests go global. CNN.
• Can 'Occupy' protests last without leaders?. 17 October 2011. Bloomberg Businessweek.

We should probably base the MOS on what the rules of grammar are. I found this:

Use Single Quotation Marks in Headlines. The Associated Press uses single quotation marks for quotations in headlines. Use Single Quotation Marks to Highlight Words Not Being Used for Their Meaning. It's the convention in certain disciplines such as philosophy, theology, and linguistics to highlight words with special meaning by using single quotation marks instead of double quotation marks.

It is from Single Quotation Marks Versus Double Quotation Marks. August 18, 2011. By Mignon Fogarty aka Grammar Girl.

Here is how Scare quotes are used: "If scare quotes are enclosing a word or phrase that does not represent a quotation from another source they may simply serve to alert the reader that the word or phrase is used in an unusual, special, or non-standard way or should be understood to include caveats to the conventional meaning."

A title is not a headline, nor reasonably analogous to one. The URI is closer to a title (and if the news agencies use a single quote in the URI, then that would be an argument in your favor.)

You have potentially presented an argument for changing MOS, not for clarifying the MOS. There is no credible evidence that the single-quoted version does not violate the current guideline at WP:TITLE.

A bot error, either RM bot or RFC bot, is not a justification for changing style guidelines; unless the bot is only failing because of another guideline violation it's a justification for fixing the bot.

The problem at the deleted page is not obviously because of RFC bot, even viewing the deleted pages. I'll have to assume that Timeshifter thought he/she invoked RFC bot correctly, but there's really no way to tell whether it's a bot error or Timeshifter's error. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

The WP:MOS page does not discuss scare quotes. WP:TITLE says nothing about scare quotes in titles. The technical problems may not be the deciding factor, but they point out the rarity of double quotes in titles.

Titles, headlines, headings. Headlines are synonymous with titles. See

http://www.google.com/#q=define:headline - At the top is this: "Verb: Provide with a headline. Noun: A heading at the top of an article or page in a newspaper or magazine. Synonyms: heading - caption - title - rubric". --Timeshifter (talk) 19:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

(I was sure I've written this somewhere before, but, if I did, it got lost)

Showing no knowledge of Wikipedia guidelines or English grammar, as usual for you in this thread.

WP:MOS does discuss scare quotes as I noted above. You need to combine two sentences in the guideline, but they are adjacent.

Synonyms are not interchangeable, and google dictionary is much worse than Wiktionary for accuracy. If you look at, for example, m-w.com, and use common sense, you can see that the appropriate definition there of "headline" (2a, at the moment) looks little like the definition you quote there, and none of the definitions of "title" match are compatible with that definition. 5a seems best for our use.

Even if the definitions were the same, those manuals of style are for newspapers, and Wikipedia is not a newspaper.

— Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:22, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

You can look up "headline" in various dictionaries and thesauruses, and see that it is synonymous with title. See:

• http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/headline
• http://thesaurus.com/browse/headline

I address your other point higher up where you brought it up. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I did notice that "headline" and "title" are listed as synonyms. In m-w, headline (1) is a species of one of the definitions of "title". However, our WP:TITLE, is clearly a different one of the definitions. Furthermore, newspapers use headline (2a), rather than headline (1); there is no similarity between headline (2a) and any of the definitions of "title". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

From here: "What’s the Difference Between Titles and Headlines? There is no difference between the words 'title' and 'headline'. The two words, in this case, are synonymous. Newspapers tend to use the word 'headline', and magazines, websites, and blogs tend to use the word 'title', but they all mean the same thing. It is the name which represents a summary or description of the written content." --Timeshifter (talk) 19:01, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

A blog entry about titles of blog posts. A real winner! — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:11, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

A blog from an expert who has written more than 75 non-fiction books. See:

http://lorelle.wordpress.com --Timeshifter (talk) 13:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment. 'Occupy' movement and 'Occupy' protests. Google News phrase searches for

• Occupy protests - "About 2,210 results".
• Occupy movement - "About 5,070 results".

The phrase search pulls up all versions with and without quotes. Some news media are still using single quotes around 'Occupy'. I did not see any using double quotes on the first page of search results. See discussion: Talk:"Occupy" protests#'Occupy' movement and 'Occupy' protests - --Timeshifter (talk) 10:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment A possible reason for quotes in headlines to be indicated by single-quotes is that they expect them to be quoted with double-quotes, thereby pre-empting the nested quote rule. That argument is sufficient to justify the newspaper manuals of style you quote, without applying at all to Wikipedia (or Commons) titles. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:31, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Single quotes are used in article titles in the news media much more than double quotes. See the search result shortcuts in my various previous comments. There is no prohibition against single quotes in article titles in the news media, nor in Wikipedia titles. So, let us not create a new prohibition here. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comments: 1) The usage "the Occupy protests" assumes everyone agrees that italics should be used for words-as-words, which is actually a long-standing fight here, and why the MOS says we can use "double quotes" or italics (well, that's one of the reasons; there are others). I think the italicized version of this looks ridiculous, and it doesn't make sense in the context anyway. It should be in quotations marks because it is in fact a quotation (of "Occupy Wall Street!", etc.). 2) "The Associated Press uses single quotation marks for quotations in headlines" because, and only because, they are trying to save space. We should, generally, never, ever, and I mean ever do what the US Associated Press style guide or the British The Guardian style guide do, just because those guides say to do it. They are utterly worthless as style guides for any writing style other than mainstream newspaper journalism, and their style decisions are completely controlled by the needs and intents of of that particular kind of publication. As a mostly "gnome" editor, I find that the #2 bottomless pit for my editorial time (after just general "I dunno howta wright good, 'cause, I'm 9 yrs old" garbage) is correcting overly journalistic style to a proper encyclopedic tone, direction and intent. It's a scourge. The further we can distance Wikipedia from that style of writing the better. It's one of the reasons I keep trying, successfully for a while each time until it gets editwarred back in, to get WP:LEAD to stop using the term "lede". A journalistic lede – a teaser paragraph that intentionally omits the most important information to arm-twist the reader into reading the entire piece, like a movie trailer drives film ticket sales – is the exact opposite of a encyclopedic lead   a concise summary of the salient facts of an article so that one does not have to read all of it unless needing detailed information. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 16:29, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

PS: Re: "The news media usually use single quotes instead of double quotes when referring to the 'Occupy' protests." See above; more newspaper journo space saving "style" (or lack thereof). Has nothing to do with encyclopedic writing. Arthur Rubin's logic is obviously correct: Scare quotes are quotes, so we use double quotes because that's what we do. Even if we didn't, it'd then be an ENGVAR issue, and we still wouldn't be putting them in single-quotes, except perhaps on a British article on an "Occupy Downing Street" spinoff. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 16:35, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about my use of "lead". Is there really a difference between an encyclopedic "lead" and a journalistic "lede", or is it just WP:ENGVAR? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comments. The question, as I understand it, is whether "scare quotes" should be marked by single quotation marks in article titles while Wikipedia's style is to use double quotation marks for quotations in general (with single quotation marks for nested quotations).

• Finding any sort of examples of scare quotes in titles – whether from news sources, Google searches, or anywhere else – without also knowing the normal style of the organization publishing those quotes proves nothing!

• If the examples using single quotation marks for scare quotes in titles are from organizations that use single quotation marks for all quotations, then these examples support the use of double quotation marks for scare quotes in Wikipedia - all quotes are being treated equally.
• If the examples using single quotation marks in title for scare quotes are from organizations that use double quotation marks for other types of quotations, then these same examples support the use of single quotation marks for scare quotes in Wikipedia - scare quotes in titles are being treated differently from other quotations.

• The technical problems with double quotation marks in URLs is a general issue - not particular to scare quotes.

I ask the editors contributing to this discussion to please slow down. Please do all your research before writing your submission, and then please use the preview button and check the result before saving your submission.

Revising your own submission repeatedly makes following the discussion difficult, especially when the change is to text than has already been responded to.

Timeshifter:

• You have stated twice above that there is no prohibition against using single quotes; but that is not the point. There is a Manual of Style. If the absence of a prohibition means you can do it, then there is an unlimited number of things that we could do regardless of the Manual of Style.
• The adoption of any style is not favouring others who happen to use the same style. Making a decision either way here is not favouring either the British or the Americans.

—Coroboy (talk) 09:22, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you addressed the point of whether to use single quotes for scare quotes in titles. It seems like almost everybody except Wikipedia is doing it. Be they British media, American media, Associated Press, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:22, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Occupy movement

• Comment. A specific article helps to bring this discussion back to a more useful discussion, as opposed to the theoretical. Concerning the specific article, "Occupy" protests, that started this discussion, the growing consensus is to change to Occupy movement as the name of the article. It does not really matter to me or most others in the talk page discussion anymore whether there are scare quotes around 'Occupy', since for most people it is no longer an unfamiliar use of the word (which is what scare quotes are for in this case). So Occupy movement or 'Occupy' movement is fine by me. When the news media put quotes around 'Occupy' they almost always use single quotes, both in the title and within the article. But the news media is only rarely putting quotes around 'Occupy' anymore. Wikipedia looks silly using double quotes, since there is little basis for it, and no desire by most grammar guides and authorities to do so. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:33, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the media uses single quotation marks. But I think you will find they use single quotation marks as their preferred quotation marks everywhere, not just for scare quotes. You still have not provided any evidence for single quotation marks for scare quotes from a publisher that uses double quotation marks for the preferred quotation marks elsewhere - you still have not proved anything. Does anyone follow my logic - or am barking up the wrong tree? —Coroboy (talk) 01:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

If you click on the Google News searches in my other comments and below you will see that the media using single quotes around 'Occupy' are media from the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, etc.. Those media use double quotation marks for regular quotes, even media from the UK. Google News phrase searches for

• Occupy protests
• Occupy movement

The phrase search pulls up all versions with and without quotes.

Here is an example:

Michael Moore: 'Occupy' movement has 'touched a nerve'. 18 October 2011. BBC News. From the article:

The 'Occupy' movement, which began in Wall Street a month ago, has "touched a nerve" and is "spreading across America", film-maker and author Michael Moore has told the BBC's Newsnight programme. "People are not going to take it any more," he told Jeremy Paxman, as the protests against banks and financial institutions have spread to capitals including Rome and London.

Note the double quotations around regular quotations. Here is an article from New Zealand:

'Occupy' movement reaches New Zealand. 15 October 2011. New Zealand Herald. It uses double quotes around regular quotations. --Timeshifter (talk) 04:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for persevering with me. You are quite right – I had not followed the links that had been provided. If I had I would have seen for myself the evidence that I was looking for: they use double quotation marks in the articles but single quotation marks for scare quotes in the headings. —Coroboy (talk) 11:12, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Coroboy. It can be complicated. Double quotation marks are used within articles for regular quotations in almost all English-language news media nowadays from all countries. Single quotation marks are usually used for scare quotes within titles. Single quotation marks are oftentimes used for scare quotes within articles too. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Talking about words

SMcCandlish. Journalistic style of writing is different from journalistic punctuation. I would think they have some kind of consistency and thought put into punctuation. Single quotes make more sense in titles for scare quotes due to the practical problems of sharing URLs, etc..

Grammar Girl says in many cases it is the convention to use single quotes for scare quotes used to "Highlight Words Not Being Used for Their Meaning". See: Single Quotation Marks Versus Double Quotation Marks. August 18, 2011. By Mignon Fogarty aka Grammar Girl. "Use Single Quotation Marks to Highlight Words Not Being Used for Their Meaning. It's the convention in certain disciplines such as philosophy, theology, and linguistics to highlight words with special meaning by using single quotation marks instead of double quotation marks."

Essay Coursework says single quotes should be used when talking about words. See the section titled "Talking About Words" in the article: Guides and resources. How to write an essay. Quotation Marks. It summarizes thusly at the end: "Place single quotation marks around a word or phrase which you are talking about." --Timeshifter (talk) 18:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I do not believe that Wikipedia, a general-English publication, should necessarily require practices geared to the specific needs of specialties such as literary criticism, linguistics or ornithology. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

OK. But Essay Coursework says single quotes should always be used when talking about words. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:04, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Technical and practical problems

Note. The technical and practical problems have been consolidated here.

There are also technical problems with double quotes in titles. URLs with double quotes can be problematic when placed in email, Facebook comments, Wikipedia, etc.. Many places, such as in Facebook comments, can not make double-quote URLs clickable at all. In other places the software substitutes characters in the URL. For example; try pasting in such URLs here:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Occupy'_protests - single quotes, not a problem.
• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Occupy%22_protests - double quotes are converted.

Double-quote URLs can not be pasted in edit windows here on Wikipedia, and stay with the double quotes. Wikipedia converted it to the above version with %22 for the double quotes. It is hard to read such URLs. One of the beauties of Wikipedia is that one can share Wikipedia URLs, and people can know what the article is about by reading the title in the URL. That is difficult with double quotes. Many comment and email forms can not use URLs correctly, or at all, if they have double quotes in them.

The RFC (request for comment) bot can not handle titles with double quotes. I used this RFC bot: http://toolserver.org/~messedrocker/postingtool.php - it is linked from here: Wikipedia:Requests for comment#Request comment through talk pages. I tried to get it to add an RFC notice to this page: Talk:List of "Occupy" protest locations. It ended up leaving a message at Talk:List of. So it got hung up at the first double quotes. I removed the RFC notice message from that new talk page, and had the page deleted via a {{speedy}} tag. Click on Talk:List of, and it shows 2 deletions of the page, one on October 16, 2011, and one on 27 February 2009. See also: Talk:List of (edit | [[Talk:Talk:List of|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Click the history link. Unfortunately, it does not show what was on the page before it was deleted each time. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:58, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea to use titles that produce URLs that are easily readable when shared. I have noticed lately that the Commons has been removing en dashes and em dashes from category titles. Maybe one of the reasons is that people have difficulty sharing URLs with en dashes, and em dashes. For example from this list of Foroa deletions check the October 17 category deletions. There is a long list of deletions of categories containing en dashes and em dashes. Here is an example:

• 14:24, 17 October 2011 Foroa (talk | contribs) deleted "Category:Denmark – United Kingdom relations" ‎ (Moved to Category:Denmark - United Kingdom relations.)

When em dashes are pasted into Facebook comments this is what you get:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark%E2%80%93United_Kingdom_relations

For more info: File:Dash font comparison.png --Timeshifter (talk) 14:09, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Readability of URLs has never been among the goals of WP styling. Let's don't start that way, which would take us back to the typewriter/ASCII age. Dicklyon (talk) 15:06, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

It looks like it may be part of the reason for the change on the Commons. Commons has always seemed to have more common sense. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:19, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Search engines cannot find quotations

I removed this from WP:PUNCT because it is contradictory, and makes no sense:

Wikipedia prefers double quotation marks because some search engines cannot find quotations within single quotation marks, like 'I ate the apple'. (Wikipedia's search facility will only find such an expression if the search string is also within single quotation marks.) In addition, double quotation marks are harder to confuse with apostrophes.

Search engines ignore punctuation in search results. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:34, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

You know, that ban on single quotation marks has been there for years. In the meantime, there have been new web browsers and new operating systems. Maybe it's time to lift the ban and permit single quotation marks in articles written in national varieties that permit them.

One caveat: Do the browsers and search engines available in all parts of the world ignore punctuation or just the ones in the U.S. and other wealthy countries? Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess that if you have access to en.wiki you have access to Google too. ― A. di M.​  19:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Isn't Timeshifter talking about what happens when one hits CTRL-F on a Wikipedia article or types something into Wikipedia's search bar? Google is a search engine, but the MoS refers to Wikipedia's search facility. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I did some more tests. Browsers don't need quotes of any kind to find phrases on a page. The browser's 'find' form will find exactly what is typed into the form including punctuation. Browsers are not "smart" search tools.

Search engines use double quotes in the search form to indicate that the full phrase is being searched for. This is true for Google and Wikipedia's Special:Search. Both Google and Special:Search ignore punctuation in the results themselves. --Timeshifter (talk) 02:11, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

We'd have to ask someone who's more adept with this kind of programming than I am, but isn't this less about what's plugged into the search feature and more about what's in the article? If the phrase she sang the song 'Concorde' again are in the MoS, then would I be able to search for "Concorde again"? Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Try it and see. It is not always clear when explained. But once you try a few phrase searches it is much clearer. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:21, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the incorrect search info again. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:11, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Quotation marks: edits concerning reasons (searching, convenience, etc.)

Timeshifter, and everyone, this needs to be got right. There were indeed some infelicities in how this was managed, but a simple excision was not the answer. There are genuine important points to make about convenience, searching, and rational consistency. I have therefore amended things at a few points in the section, to read as follows:

Please discuss here as necessary, after getting clear about the facts. ☺ Noetica^Tea? 23:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I am removing your many additions since they are a major change, and should be discussed. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

That is your prerogative, Timeshifter. Now discuss the changes I made – which were not major, and affected no substance of any guidelines. Carefully analyse each one for us, showing how I am in error and how the information is not useful. Also the amendments by Greg, and anyone else involved. I'll watch, and come in later. Much too busy in the world for this sort of thing.

Noetica^Tea? 00:36, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

There are separate discussions. I and others can discuss your latest proposals over a few days. It would be helpful if you could specify clearly what you are proposing to change. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:21, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Timeshifter, it is not helpful to pretend that the changes I proposed are not clearly marked. I present them above, and they have been fully self-explanatory and documented from the start. I accept also Greg's input, integrated now into the material in the navbox above. Keep the discussion tag that I have placed on the section; it is under discussion. Please join in keeping the discussion well flagged (don't change the section header to something uninformative), and collegial. WP:MOS affects 6,908,782, not just the ones that recently occupy you. Noetica^Tea? 03:08, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I found that a bit confusing: “[Argument in favour of curly quotes]. But [on the other hand] [argument against single quotes].” I know you're lumping the two issues, but still... Simply swapping the two following bullet items would help a great deal, though maybe something even better could be come up to.

Also, “Almost certainly the eye parses typographical (curly) quotation marks more smoothly”: how do you know that? Did empirical studies find that? If so, say “[It has been found|Studies have found] that the eye [probably|almost certainly|whatever] parses ...”. Is that speculation? If so, say “Many think that the eye parses typographical (curly) quotation marks more smoothly, and that they look more professional.” ― A. di M.​  12:41, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, A di M. Fair points. First, I simply integrated Greg's reasons in favour of the disfavoured curly versions; I do not feel any onus to supply references in WP:MOS. Greg or someone else might like to show some, here on the talkpage. I agree with the point, and could argue for it on theoretical and empirical grounds, when I am not too busy. Anyway, I have softened the statement in question. Second, I have re-ordered and adjusted things in response to your other useful suggestion, and substituted a more pressing example.

Noetica^Tea? 23:09, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

MOS:POSS broken

For some reason, our MOS section on possessives still suggests (as option 2) that one acceptable style for possessives of names that end in "s" is to just add an apostrophe. While this usage is often seen in sources, it is not the way recommended in any of the best grammar guides, and is not the usage of best sources. Can't we have a style guideline that suggests that we go with the more widely recommended approach, which is like option 1 or 3 or somewhere between? If you search books for the examples given, you'll find that they are absent or very much a minority in good sources: [1], [2], [3], as well as being counter to recommendations or summaries in grammar guides: [4], [5], [6], [7] Even where just the final apostrophe is suggested as an exception on certain archaic and biblical names by some guides ("Moses' leadership"), the alternative "Moses's leadership" is still found in books; so option 3 is the most commonly recommended approach and it leaves room for such variation. Dicklyon (talk) 18:50, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

A related RfC of this problem in action is at Talk:Steve_Jobs#Jobs.27_or_Jobs.27s.3F. Dicklyon (talk) 18:07, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The problem here (with option 3) is that pronunciation is often varied, but to my ear "Steve Jobs' house" is fine where as "Jobs's" sounds odd. Often the exhortation is to avoid excess sibilance by "Moses' and Jesus'" in particlar and indeed anything with two trailing sibilants in general. Rich Farmbrough, 21:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC).

I agree that variation is part of the problem; to my ear, you got it backwards (and I've been to Jobs's house, so I ought to know). My preference would be to avoid that problem by sticking with option 1. As many of the guides say after discussing the acceptable alternatives, "-'s" is always correct. As for avoiding excess sibilance, many suggest skipping the extra s for words that already end in two sibiliants with nothing but a vowel between (Jesus, Moses, Texas), but not more generally than that. Dicklyon (talk) 00:42, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

So,it is your suggestion that we just get rid of option #2?--JOJ ^Hutton 01:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Either that or drop options 2 and 3; or rewrite it more like Chicago, Strunk & White, and the others that have a thoughtful discussion of the reasons for exceptions to 1. The options are essentially the problem; and the lack of depth in describing usage and guidance from sources. Few sources would even allow dropping the s from a monosyllabic name, yet we have a big argument over one. Dicklyon (talk) 01:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Guides say when it's recommended or OK to use "-'s": except Jesus and Moses and a few other multi-syllabic names, "certainly the commonest practice with monosyllables", "always", "except for Jesus", except words ending in two sibilants like Texas, Moses, "in most cases","most authorities who aren't journalists demand the final s as well", exceptions for ancient/biblical Moses, "even if it already ends with s", "standard", "in all but the strictest situations, either form is acceptable", "always correct", "if in doubt, always add the 's". Is there any reason for our MOS to not recommend going with a practice that is "always correct", even in the "strictest situations", and to instead allow editors to just argue over which way they prefer it? I think it's not working this way. Dicklyon (talk) 01:05, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Not all guides agree with that, nor does every person pronounce words the same. There are variations, and those variations should be recognized as viable options in the MOS.--JOJ ^Hutton 01:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The more serious guides discuss the problem in some depth, including the fact that not everyone agrees and that it's a thorny issue; and then they end up saying that "-'s" is almost always correct, and they discuss the exceptions. I agree that we should do the same. Some say base it on how it sounds best; I think we'd be best to mention that and recommend away from it, since it can't really help the problem of collaborative editing among English speakers with a huge variety of backgrounds. Or say that basing it on pronunciation is OK, but that when editors can't agree, then revert to what's always acceptable. Dicklyon (talk) 01:27, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• Question. How many edit wars have there actually been in the article namespace about this? If the answer is “few or none”, I wander why we need a guideline about this at all, rather than just leaving people write whichever the hell they want between James' and James's, the way we do with anybody vs anyone, burned vs burnt, or any of the other zillion instances of free variation any natural language has? ― A. di M.​  15:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

There aren't really that many. My guess is that this all stems from a debate at Talk:Steve Jobs on whether or not the article should use Jobs's or Jobs' exclusively. Seems that Dickylon may have begun this particular discussion as a way to clarify the rules more precisely. Can't blame him for that, although I do disagree with making one way more preferred over another. Our speech patterns on this topic seem to dictate how we write them. It would seem that the most MOS guides do prefer option #1, but I gather that either speech patterns have not caught up with the MOS guides or the MOS guides have not caught up with our speech patterns. Either way, noone can deny that there are plenty of hard core reliable sources that still use option #2. Getting rid of it would be foolish.--JOJ ^Hutton 16:55, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Noone can deny that? Have you even showed us a single source that recommends option 2? OK, we've heard about the Associated Press stylebook from Greg, but is that it? Are there any others? None in evidence. Dicklyon (talk) 17:16, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

As far as I saw, there were plenty of reliable sources from reputable news organizations that used the the -s'. We all saw the same links on at Talk:Steve Jobs. It's used, and quite often, so its time to move on from that. Also, the style guide in the Websters Dictionary also states that -s' is also acceptable, or did you forget that?--JOJ ^Hutton 17:30, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I misinterpreted you as saying that there are sources that recommend that usage; I over-interpreted from when you had said "Not all guides agree with that", didn't notice that you had gone off that and back to usage. So are there actually any guides that don't agree (besides the AP's own stylebook)? Dicklyon (talk) 19:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Not sure if there are others, but it only takes one. I haven't seen the AP style guide, but I'm sure whoever linked it is correct. I did thumb through some hard copies of some style guides this morning and they all said -s's, so I would say that most style guides agree with you, but not all of them.--JOJ ^Hutton 19:12, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

A, that's a very good question. It's not "none", and I don't know if it's "few". But this isn't the first time I've seen it come up. I'm not looking for "rules", but guidance. The current scheme is basically a punt, saying do whatever you want, rather than guiding toward what most good guides would suggest, and that just seems inadequate. Dicklyon (talk) 17:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

MOS:POSS has been invoked re names ending in s several times in the last year that I can find, with varying results, at Talk:Charles_Ives#Possessive.27s_rule, Talk:E._E._Cummings#The_Possessive_Apostrophe_Question_-.3E_Cummings.27_or_Cummings.27s_.3F, Talk:Charles_R._Forbes#First_thoughts (where a GA reviewer says "According to MOS:POSS, I beleive Forbes' is the correct way to indicate the possessive in this case," which is basically wrong by almost all style guides), Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Featured_log/August_2011#Manhattan_Project (re Mr. Beams's),

• I agree 100% with Rich Farmbrough; it sounds odd to my ear; ergo, this proposal is overly proscriptive. Why? Because it ignores practices frequently observed today by reputable publications. Though many have it “John Adams’s estate”, it looks and sounds odd to my ear. I’m sure at least 1% of Americans in the south-section of Chicago pronounce it “John Adumzez eight-ball of crack.” This admonition, to write it the way it sounds correct to the ear, was practiced by none other than the famous American editorial columnist and grammarian James Kilpatrick.

  If many reputable publications (which is the case) spell it “Steve Jobs’ health”, then it is not the proper role of MOS to tell contributing editors that they can’t follow such widely adopted practices. Just take a look at how CNN does it here and how the Associated Press does it here. It is Steve Jobs’ comments about…. And Macworld spells it Steve Jobs’ legacy. And PC World calls it Steve Jobs’ health. All these publications realize that a possessive of someone named “Jobs” ought to be spelled the way it sounds. Sure, some of these publications aren’t even consistent within themselves but the AP tends to be most consistent because its manual of style is observed by something like 99% of their subscribing newspapers. Even the Germans have this figured out. Witness how Der Spiegel does it: Steve Jobs' health… Jobs' death… Jobs' products… and Jobs' garage.

  All the aforementioned publications eschew some of the classic grammarian guidelines for a good reason; it’s not like their professional copy editors (who invariably have journalism degrees) haven’t seen those guidelines. Does Dick think those editors are daft? Let’s cut these editors some slack and assume they might know a thing or two about proper punctuation.

  Just because there is another school of thought does not entitle a handful of wikipedians who happen to be active here on the talk page of MOS in late October to dictate to others that they can’t observe such a widely used technique for punctuation. For this proposal to sail, it needs to be much more widely discussed to ensure we benefit from the full gamut of the best advise from our most experienced and educated editors; some undoubtedly (I hope… I hope) have journalism degrees. I’m sure may will say “Jobs’ health” is a widespread practice so the current MOS advise of permitting it when the alternative sounds odd to the ear is proper advise in a style guide for a collaborative writing environment. Greg L (talk) 19:11, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the proposal ("or rewrite it more like Chicago, Strunk & White, and the others that have a thoughtful discussion of the reasons for exceptions to 1.") was to discuss usage, like the guides do, not to ignore it. I'm perfectly OK with a clause that bases the choice on how the word sounds, but the option 2 that says to always omit the final s seems to be much less favored in practice, and in guides (with the exception of the Associated Press and many other journalism outlets that follow them, which you pointed out and I acknowledged). Dicklyon (talk) 19:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Quoting you: …much less favored in practice. My above-linked references to the Associated Press and other publications calls that into question. I would grant you however, that there are a lot of punctuation guidelines that advise as you prefer. Given the clearly ubiquitous practice of many notable and highly respected publications to eschew that advice, the current MOS guideline to permit it is wise. Greg L (talk) 19:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

My position has always been the MOS does not permit or prohibit. It advises and guides. The present version fails to do so. Dicklyon (talk) 19:24, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I just looked at it carefully (it is here at MOS:POSS). I see nothing at all wrong with it. It seems to have been well crafted. I see also that it says Apply just one of these three practices consistently within an article. I think that is the best approach given that we have a collaborative writing environment with an all-volunteer army of contributors. Greg L (talk) 19:28, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

It describes "three practices", but fails to say anything useful about how to choose between them, or which ones are recommended or preferred by what authorities, or whether WP has its own style preference (which I think it should). Dicklyon (talk) 19:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

That’s “compromise” which is a common way of achieving consensus on Wikipedia. Witness how MOS handles AD - BC and BCE. Though “BCE” is often used by the pros in professional publications (being more PC makes one seem really smart), you seldom hear it on TV documentaries; “The pyramid was built in two-thousand Bee See Eeee” attracts attention to itself so is seldom used. Ergo, we have total chaos when it comes to “BCE vs. BC”. This issue of “Jobzuz vs. Jobs” is minor in comparison. I wouldn’t worry about it. Greg L (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It doesn't say anything useful about whether to write (say) he knew she was there or he knew that she was there, or, he did not know if she was there or he did not know whether she was there, or [insert your favourite example of free variation here], either. Why is this any different? Essentially, this is about euphony, about which it's very hard to say useful things without accidentally slipping some nonsense in. ― A. di M.​  19:49, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, it's not that hard for the guides that do say something useful about euphony and other considerations. And euphony is not much help, as you can see, since we often split 50/50 on how we pronounce possessives of names. Dicklyon (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

As for “practice” (at least that of books scanned by Google), it is very close to be equally split.[8] That's why whether I saw Jobs' or Jobs's I'd just leave it the hell alone either way. ― A. di M.​  19:38, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Ditto. Greg L (talk) 19:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Exactly; the "preferred" way exceeds the "informal" way by only about 40% (a bit more if you look at all the years, or only recent years, but there was dip for a while there). Dicklyon (talk) 20:03, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

If it makes any difference, the original state of the Steve Jobs' article used the single apostrophe, not s's. If its split 50/50 then that could be a tiebreaker. Jeancey (talk) 20:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

If the article wasn’t a stub when the change was made and one or more major contributors were using Jobs’ health, then I should think the way to handle it is if there is no objection from those original editors, then Jobs’s health (and the ilk) can stay since it is a legitimate style. But if any of the original major editors object, it may be reverted to the original style. Greg L (talk) 01:16, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It may be time for an informal straw poll at Talk:Steve Jobs, so we can see where we can go from there.--JOJ ^Hutton 20:51, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Koran etc. green/colored quote boxes

Shouldn't these be discouraged? I've seen them created typically using the optional "bgcolor" parameter of {{cquote}}. There are probably other ways, e.g. changing toccolours spanning a {{quotation}}. But they are rather distracting regardless how they are implemented. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 01:53, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Suggest you look at WT:SBS#Colours in succession box headers where most of these considerations (and those of usability and accessibility) were aired with regard to succession boxes. BrownHairedGirl's revised design has given an aesthetic and usable result. Bazj (talk) 15:27, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm talking about customizing the background color of blockquotes here. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Which is why I pointed you at that discussion. Colour backgrounds have accessibility and usability implications for the visually impaired and those using readers. For this reason succession boxes no longer use background colours, just a colour band at the top of the header section.

Short answer: Yes, they should be discouraged. Bazj (talk) 13:43, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Space after a comma

Should we always place a space after the comma when we separate different page numbers in a citation? Eg. "G. Woodfall. pp. 111,112." Is there a rule? What do you think? Thanks in advance. -- Basilicofresco (msg) 07:32, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I believe we should. It's a standard rule of punctuation that they're followed by a space (except for delimiting thousands), right? JIMp _talk·cont 14:02, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree, but I have been harshly criticized for adding a space in "111,112" and I have to find out the rule about it. -- Basilicofresco (msg) 09:05, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I had a look and can't see this codified anywhere in the MoS, but it looks like we should just apply common sense. "111,112" is ambiguous because it actually looks like one hundred thousand one hundred and twelve. It should either be spaced ("111, 112") or dashed ("111–112"). Jenks24 (talk) 08:43, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Common sense and a very elementary knowledge of English are all that are needed. Some things are so obvious that they are not in the canon of MoS. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:50, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Dash question

Hi all. I just came across 99–yard pass play, which uses an en dash in the title. My immediate reaction was that it looked weird to use an en dash in that situation and that a hyphen should be used instead. I had a look at MOS:DASH and couldn't find anything that seems to apply to this case. Any opinions? Jenks24 (talk) 08:46, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Seems clear to me that it should have a hyphen, not a dash.--Kotniski (talk) 08:58, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I've changed the dashes to hyphens in the article body; changing the title will require an admin.--Kotniski (talk) 09:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Moved by Anthony Appleyard. Thanks for the help, Kotniski. Jenks24 (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Is nobody troubled by the leading digits, vice "Ninety-nine-yard pass play"? LeadSongDog come howl! 17:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

"comprised of" eradication

Are guys aware that there's an editor who has made a program out of eradicating "comprised of" from Wikipedia? User:Giraffedata/comprised of. If there's consensus that that is bad grammar, perhaps it should be added to the MOS or WP:Words to avoid? Have mörser, will travel (talk) 09:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

This editor is correct. "Composed" requires an "of" when it introduces a list of components, but "comprised" does not.

Still, I don't know if this needs to be in the MoS. To my knowledge, looking up the proper use of "comprised" is relatively simple. Have there been an edit wars or talk page conflicts about this? Darkfrog24 (talk) 10:04, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Meh, I objected when he changed a phrase to eliminate a direct quote which contained "comprised of": [9]. I would not have objected otherwise, but he also introduced a minor formatting problem in the same edit. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The phrase "comprised of" is a well-known bugaboo for people who worry about such things. It is both present in some educated writing and deprecated by some educated writers. We won't settle the argument here. My 2p is that people today generally use it when they are trying to sound smart, only to make themselves sound silly instead. On the other hand, if you use "comprise" in the intended sense ("Wikipedia comprises encyclopedias in dozens of languages") many readers will think it sounds odd. In real life I advise my students to just avoid the word "comprise" altogether to avoid the problem. — Carl (CBM · talk) 10:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Just a comment, it's no more odd than the word "contains". Uniplex (talk) 10:19, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I guess this guy didn't hear about it. Not only does he use it in that book, but also uses it on his web page, duh. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 10:22, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, you won't find any resolution here. But I'm sure there are better examples of "comprised of" in educated literary use than a web page of someone who works in criminal justice. For example [10] — Carl (CBM · talk) 10:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

This sounds like a "correct it when you see it but a rule against it would be more trouble than it's worth" situation. I concur that errors of this sort in direct quotes should be left in. The person can add a [sic] if he/she feels so strongly about it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Makes me sick, too. As Dan Geist pointed out to me years ago, there are three options: composed of, consists of, and comprises. I think Fowler discusses the nuances in these, although he's a bit dated nowadays. Perhaps it does need to be included somewhere, but we usually avoid adding to MoS in this way. Tony (talk) 13:32, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

The error seems to qualify for inclusion at Wikipedia:Common grammatical errors.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:33, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with someone going round changing "comprised of" to something else (as long as he or she doesn't unintentionally change the meaning or create other problems) but I don't think we should claim that this is a grammatical error and talk of 'correcting' it, since all three uses of "comprise" have been established for over a century, as Merriam Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage confirms. As they say, "Our advice to you is to realize that the disputed sense [active and passive uses] is established and standard, but nevertheless liable to criticism. If such criticism concerns you, you can probably avoid comprise by using compose, constitute or make up, whichever fits your sentence best. --Boson (talk) 18:19, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

0.1 seconds or 0.1 second?

You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Convert#Numbers greater than 0 but less than or equal to 1 should use singluar nouns. ― A. di M.​  15:45, 24 October 2011 (UTC)Template:Z48

• Hey… I didn’t have to go to the store after all. My wife just came in the door with half a gallons of milk. Greg L (talk) 01:18, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• Hi, Greg. "Half [of] one gallon" isn't the same as "naught point five gallon", though. Matthewedwards :  Chat  04:17, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

• I posted a note about this topic over at the Language Refdesk to recruit some expert participation. Roger (talk) 13:53, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Yup, I saw that. For me language is not driven by experts but by users and this leads to all sorts of anomalies and 'irritations' (it is common in the UK to hear "1 pence" (WTF!!)). I think the one part "half a whatever" is now widely, if not universally used, but the decimal equivalent is perhaps subject to some variation. It is normal here to say "nought point five of a kilometre" but "nought point five kilometres" (in reality the 'nought' is usually omitted) I can't explain that, but that is the way a huge majority of people in the UK use these terms. For me use decides the rules. Richard Avery (talk) 14:57, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, usage, not logic, is what we should be considering. In the UK, this is (for example) "seven tenths of a second" but "0.7 seconds". I would have said that this was universal here, but no doubt someone will find a deviant citation. Dbfirs 18:08, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

It is indeed singular. It's called a "collective noun." Darkfrog24 (talk) 05:11, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean to be a smarty-pants or anything, Darkfrog, but it hasn't got anything to do with collective nouns; the nouns here are just plain names of units of measure. If you have half of a gallon, you have half of one gallon & it's singular because you get a gallon a halve it. "0.5 gallon(s)", though it might be just as much milk, is a different thing grammatically. JIMp _talk·cont 06:55, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I thought we were talking about 6.2 microliters is/are added to the reaction mixture et al. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:36, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I see, do excuse me. JIMp _talk·cont 13:08, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

No, no, I wasn't paying enough attention. You're quite right. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:04, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

User:Δ (automation) edits proposal

There is a set of proposals on WP:VPR to allow him to perform mass changes of a certain sort, particularly with respect to citation formatting. You'll have to go through the proposal as there are some 20 of them right now. Searching for "CITEVAR" on that page might help. There are a few other issues that are MOS related; spaces, category placements, and probably some other stuff as well. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 16:43, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Middlesex (novel)#Intersex grammar

Would editors with a strong command of English grammar take a look at Talk:Middlesex (novel)#Intersex grammar? The discussion has become a bit heated, and I would be grateful if editors can comment there to clear up any confusion about grammar related to the term "Intersex". Cunard (talk) 23:31, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

New York-style pizza

From my interpretation of MOS:DASH, I believe New York-style pizza is correct, is this true? —danhash (talk) 17:41, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#En dashes: other uses, part 3: Instead of a hyphen, when applying a prefix to a compound that includes a space (permanent link here). It seems to me that the principle can be extended to suffixes. Although the word style is an unbound morpheme, its function here is somewhat like that of a suffix, so I recommend the form New York–style pizza.

—Wavelength (talk) 23:25, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

That looks like a reasonable supposition, Wavelength. But no: the guideline is precise, and distinguishes cases of prefixing from all seemingly related cases. The guideline as it stands is the result of carefully negotiated compromise across a sharp divide in opinion (as exhibited in voting and commentary during the Great Dashfest of 2011), and it fits as well as can be expected with the aggregated recommendations of major style guides, both explicit and ex silentio. It is not to be set aside lightly.

For the present case, note that a hyphen can be considered sufficient because the capitals in "New York" mark it clearly as a unit, so the hyphen is unlikely to be construed as making the compound "York-style". For cases with no (or mixed) capitalisation, an additional hyphen is almost always available: "old-Naples-style pizza" (a pizza in the style of old Naples), contrasting with "original Naples-style pizza" (a pizza in the original style of Naples). Cases where neither solution is available? I leave that as an exercise.

Noetica^Tea? 01:40, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

New York-style pizzas were launched at a party at The Pizza Restaurant in the CBD (of York). Tony (talk) 02:48, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Proving, for the stragglers among us, that no system of punctuation can defeat the ingenuity of the determined exception-finder. But hard cases make bad law; and the hard cases here are remarkably few. Now Tony, your response does not meet the requirements of the task. <hyperpedantry>The solution is available all right; just not efficacious. "New York" is capitalised, even if the first capital has a different justification from the second. (This might arise in title case also: "Another New York-Style Pizza Franchise Fails in Bristol".)</hyperpedantry> There are genuine cases in which capitals are not in play, but an extra hyphen is not considered available in the manner of "old-Naples-style pizza". Hint: do not attempt this with pizzas. Noetica^Tea? 04:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Yup. Tony (talk) 05:43, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

A bunch of research and sourcing on logical and typesetters' quotation marks

I've written a detailed essay on the issue with a large number of sources cited.

User:SMcCandlish/Logical quotation

Still a work-in-progress, as I have sources that have not been integrated yet. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 00:39, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for that page. If it eventually has sections, that would be helpful.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I concur. You need to put up a fence to keep those teal deer away. I put some comments on your content on the essay's talk page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 03:18, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I just did a Wikipedia search for "teal deer" about two minutes ago, and now I understand.

—Wavelength (talk) 02:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

RfC re layout of footnote/references

There is a RfC at the Layout MOS page, regarding the layout of footnotes/references: RfC is here. --Noleander (talk) 15:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Dash stuff

I'm not good with dashes, so I'm asking here: What's the rule concerning these articles. There are some which contain spaces between the dashes and some that don't. Which is the correct one? --The Evil IP address (talk) 13:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

This is a bit like the bilateral international relations articles I raised here a while ago (and which still haven't been resolved). According to the rule now adopted, all of these should have no spaces next to the dashes. (The MoS used to recommend a different rule, which is no doubt how they got to be like that).--Kotniski (talk) 14:04, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The ones without spaces are correct. The others (with more than a single word on one side or the other, and spaces) were correct in the old scheme, not in the new. All unspaced would be correct. Dicklyon (talk) 15:36, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't find the change in the MOS with respect to this. Can someone point me to the diff? Thanks. — X96lee15 (talk) 20:21, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

It was part of a long process involving a huge RfC. See "Making MOS:ENDASH happen" in the last archive for more detailed information.--Kotniski (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

And the result was "The en dash in all of the compounds above is unspaced." Dicklyon (talk) 00:13, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I've already moved some pages, even though there seems to be a huge backlog still. --The Evil IP address (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Punctuating suffixed phrases

What are the punctuation guidelines in regard to attributive adjectives formed by the addition of suffixes to phrases?

• ice~cream~y, faux~fur(r)~y, burnt~orange~like, camouflage~green~ish, royal~blu(e)~ish, windshield~wiper~less, side~view~mirror~less, high~tech~ish, Frank~Sinatra~esque
  

—Wavelength (talk) 00:56, 31 October 2011 (UTC) and 00:57, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Double or single quotes for 'scare quotes'?

When a single word is quoted as a 'scare quote', particularly for the askance use described here: Scare quotes#Non-acceptance of terminology, should they be single or double quotes? I would favour single personally, as more obviously distinct from a literal quote. WP style seems to be double, from the examples on that page, although this isn't especially clear from WP:MOSQUOTE. Can this please be confirmed, and ideally stated more clearly at WP:MOSQUOTE. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:25, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The MoS currently requires double quotation marks for all such cases. The rationale behind this is that single quotation marks can interfere with CTRL-F searches. However, there is some question as to whether this rule is still necessary. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

See new draft of reasons for insertion into the guideline, above. It would be rational to include these. Editors often use alternative forms (single where MOS calls for double; curly though MOS calls for straight), without understanding the issues.

Noetica^Tea? 20:10, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Help:Searching

In response to a request made in an edit summary by Noetica, I have been searching for an answer, and the closest wikilink that I can provide at this time is "Help:Searching".
—Wavelength (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-11-10/Search engine.
—Wavelength (talk) 22:09, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Wavelength. The first of those links occurs in the proposed text (mentioned in the preceding section, and given in a navbox above). The second is from 2008. Neither includes the word prompt, and I do not find discussion of how prompts work, under any different name. Something may need to be written. Compare the ill-documented "editing screen". Is the area in which one edits called the "edit window", or the "edit box"? Not definitively treated; not anywhere obvious, at least. Alas, I still have no time! Noetica^Tea? 22:20, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Help:Editing#Wiki markup (permanent link here) uses the expression edit window, which is not listed at Wikipedia:Glossary (permanent link here).

—Wavelength (talk) 22:50, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I have posted a message at Wikipedia:Help desk, requesting help here.
—Wavelength (talk) 23:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The page names displayed when a user types in the search box are often called search suggestions. mw:Manual:$wgEnableMWSuggest mentions this and some other names but doesn't explain details of the feature. PrimeHunter (talk) 00:29, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Excrescence - again

Earlier, I suggested discouraging excrescent forms of prepositions, such as amongst (among) and whilst, (while) due to the potential for misunderstanding. Both are verifiable as excrescent forms. Just check any dictionary that bothers to have decent etymological accounts of its entries.

By being so inclusive of different grammatical standards, Wikipedia is indirectly encouraging a lot of contextual misunderstanding and misapplication of English vocabulary. The average reader is not necessarily aware of differences that existence among various dialect of English, nor are they necessarily aware of Wikipedia's policy allowing articles to vary in dialect as much as it incidentally occurs. These readers tend to assume that some (or many) of these different spellings and forms have separate contexts, and should be used regardless of one's dialect. I realize this might sound like a stretch, but I sincerely believe that Wikipedia is responsible for setting grammatical reformations back several hundred years. Just in recent years, I've noticed several people expanding their vocabulary in awkward ways, not realizing that some of the word forms that they use belong to another dialect; and this often reflects the varied style of grammar and vocabulary found in your average Wiki article, having sections written by people from entirely different parts of the world.

Bear in mind, this is not necessarily a debate about dialectal differences. Neither of the aforementioned excrescent forms belong to any specific dialect of English, and have no place in any of the grammar books. What's important is that most dialects of English agree on several commonalities, and those standards uphold that among and while are standard usage. Permitting anything further is just lending to confusion.

There are a few other excrescent word forms that I propose should be replaced, when possible:

towards, anyways, backwards, forwards - The [-s] is excrescent. Dictionaries (belonging to different dialects) only list the [-s] forms as alternative spellings. Some don't acknowledge it at all.

unbeknownst - Clearly an archaism. Sounds like something that would result from Early Modern English inflection. Replace with "unknown," which means the exact same thing.

70.153.123.9 (talk) 01:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)