Per [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=prev&oldid=503101527#Arbitrators.27_opinion_on_hearing_this_matter_.280.2F8.2F0.2F0.29 this], the RFAR request that you were listed as a party in was rejected and closed. - [[User:Penwhale|Penwhale]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Penwhale|dance in the air]] and [[Special:Contributions/Penwhale|follow his steps]]</sup> 12:30, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Per [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case&diff=prev&oldid=503101527#Arbitrators.27_opinion_on_hearing_this_matter_.280.2F8.2F0.2F0.29 this], the RFAR request that you were listed as a party in was rejected and closed. - [[User:Penwhale|Penwhale]] | <sup>[[User_talk:Penwhale|dance in the air]] and [[Special:Contributions/Penwhale|follow his steps]]</sup> 12:30, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
== Red colored username ==
I'm new here, so please be patient.
Question: Why are the usernames different colors, usually black, some red? What's the difference? [[Special:Contributions/67.59.92.60|67.59.92.60]] ([[User talk:67.59.92.60|talk]]) 20:48, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
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Hi Avanu. I got impressed for the polemic produced in that debate, and seemed very, very unlikely the deletion of the article. In cases like that is it not obvious that the article should be kept? How is possible one admin taking that final decision? It is clear that a neutral committee should decide that. It seems pretty much a contestable act over there, therefore a clear case to the Deletion review. My main problem is finding time to all this, however I will be there if you or some else do the request. By the way, thanks for your comprehensive vision, you really understood the reality and knew how to deal correctly with the facts and editors. Excalibursword (talk) 14:44, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes it just goes that way. I don't think the Delete people made a good case, but it won for today. I suppose it could be appealed, but I think it will just be a repeat of the same. -- Avanu (talk) 14:52, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As said before. Barnstars are interesting, but a more useful tool to you. Sometimes the fight is more important than the victory or defeat.Excalibursword (talk) 17:08, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All right, good. I personally don't think you need to be recalled, although I'm not 100% pleased with your actions, but I wanted to make sure he knew the option existed. - Jorgath (talk) (contribs)12:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, I have no problem with an administrator using the 'tools', as long as they are polite and considerate when they use them. I found Sarek's curt reply the other day when he posted that link to be a little disingenuous considering how unbelievably specific and complex the process is at that link. I am certain that there is a lot that Sarek does which is helpful and constructive toward the encyclopedia, but unfortunately I see rash or abrupt actions from him far too frequently. I know that he knows about this, because its been said to him by various editors time and again, and I hope he sincerely wants to improve. Personally, my ire is raised more than anything else by a person in authority behaving in a less than considerate way when the other person can't do anything to protect themselves. While Sceptre isn't blameless in this recent thing, Sarek should have taken some steps to make sure he communicated things clearly to Sceptre before just resorting to punitive actions. -- Avanu (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Something like a recurring yearly 'continuing education' for Admins would be great if it could be shown that it helps. Dealing with burnout, how to handle conflict, easier methods for complicated stuff, whatever is needed. As for being an admin for perpetuity, I'm conflicted on this. I read Jimmy Wales rationale on this a while back. He said 'why remove a good admin if they've done nothing wrong?' And if an admin is doing well, that rationale seems reasonable. After all, they are just volunteers. However, if the expectation is that an admin will be time-limited, then it seems like they have no expectation of anything else and will just serve out their term and move back into regular joe status without a problem. The other side of the problem is the massively hideous Request for Adminship and the Admin Review processes. Its simply a horrible shoutfest of all the negative things a person might have ever done. Despite my occasional disdain for Sarek, I would hope that the day he retires, we congratulate him and thank him for his service. This is something that every volunteer deserves. So the current candidacy and review is a mess, and these admins serve for life. All in all, I think some form of time-limited service would simply make this all less problematic and a big emphasis on civil treatment during those processes would help.
As I write this, I also realize that I was pretty harsh with Sarek yesterday in my comment (at AN/I). I'll stand by the substance in my critique, but I feel that I was wrong in the way I presented it. My apologies to Sarek for the tone and language. -- Avanu (talk) 15:25, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Accepted, of course. Had you left it at "He simply amps up the conflict instead of working to resolve problems. Sceptre didn't need to be kicked while down" in the first place, I wouldn't have blinked twice.--SarekOfVulcan (talk)15:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And about the "complex procedure", it comes down to "if 6 editors in good standing want me to stand for recall, we run an RFC/U and I abide by what the clerk says the results are." Most of the complexities can be ignored. --SarekOfVulcan (talk)15:46, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
something similar
You recently had interactions with Obotlig at an AFD [1] where you stated "Calling people trolls for asking for a reasonable argument isn't civil." I have a similar incident with the same editor calling me a troll, which I have brought to Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance#Obotlig. Please share your opinions there. DreamFocus16:03, 1 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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I'm aware I take a harder, bright-line approach to COI editing than some other admins do; and it's not a bad idea to keep me reminded that my stance is a smidgen controversial in some circles. --Orange Mike | Talk12:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I jumped up and yelled 'fire' a little too quickly as well. I think I learned to think just a little harder after this and I appreciate that you're being as on top of things as you are. You take care of a lot and I appreciate your effort. Wish you well. -- Avanu (talk) 12:09, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No one did. Your comments were not on topic, and were not relevant to a standards-based discussion on the topic as given. Collapsing or Hatting off-topic material in a discussion is perfectly in line with Talk Page guidelines. -- Avanu (talk) 00:27, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, IRWolfie closed the discussion with a decision of no incivility on the part of Guy. I think he is wrong.
Latest diff from guy and recent comments at WQA indicate that he is going to continue to follow me, and to bias reply against me.
BTW, I don't think that I was forum shopping. I talked at talk x-ray computed tomography, we had a content dispute, we went to the DRN, I have reasons to suspect COI (not just because people didn't agree with me), and I asked people to declare it in accordance with the COI guideline, I was told to go to the COIN to discuss COIs, I did, the discussion was closed by a volunteer, afterwards an other volunteer at the talk page wrote, that it was closed because it was only a discussion and not an accusation. It was only a discussion, since I didn't want to make accusations because the COI guideline instruct to discuss first and try to reach agreement. Guy exploded at the COIN thinking that I am accusing him, but I didn't accuse anyone there. Then I asked at the COIN talk page why the discussion was closed, since the header said that the COIN is for advice as well. Guy added his disclaimer there, and IRWolfie- collapsed the discussion, before I received an answer from a volunteer at the COIN. At the MEDRS talk page there was a discussion about the medrs rules being too complex, and serving commercial interests, and I vented there that I agreed, and mentioned my case as proof that something is wrong with the rules. At the NPOV there was a post before me from someone who criticized the undue weight policy, and also the interpretation of due weight at that thread seemed different than what I saw before, and I joined the discussion in order to clarify my own understanding, and I found out that I didn't understand before, because I took due weight literally, and because other editors use that term in a way that suggest a different meaning than what it really is. At the NOR I have started long ago a generic discussion about if simple logic is a synth, I didn't mention my case, but someone else knew about it and bothered to point it out to everyone. I wanted to discuss if simple logic is a synth generically but the other participants refused.
WP:FORUMSHOP state that forum shop is raising essentially the same issue on multiple noticeboards, or to multiple administrators. From these four places only the DRN is a noticeboard/administrator. So there wasn't going to multiple noticeboards/administrators. I hope that going to the DRN for a content dispute is not considered forum shopping. The other places were talk pages, and in any case in any of the four locations different issues were discussed - determining the reason the COIN didn't give advice about possible COIs - expressing opinion about the rules of MEDRS - how is due weight determined - is simple logic a SYNTH. I hope it is clear that these are not essentially the same issue, these questions may have arise due to the same issue, but they are not the same issue.
In my opinion, even if someone is forumshoping, the issue should be first determined at some talk page maybe a WQA, and in any case following around and inserting off topic messages to discussions is not civil. For some reasons a few other participants seems to think that Guy's actions were not uncivil. --Nenpog (talk) 01:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest that you take a breather from that article that is causing Guy Macon to label you as a forum shopper. Perhaps a week, perhaps longer. The reason I suggest this rather than continue bumping against Guy in one forum after another, is that if you give this time to cool off, you can think about the approach, and if you revisit this after some time has passed, it will be less likely that Guy will be able to claim forum shopping on your part. You might also see that there is a different approach to accomplishing some of what you might want or you might gain a different perspective on what your fellow editors are saying. If you have patience with this, and if Guy continues to follow you even after that patience has been demonstrated, I think you would have a stronger reason to claim that his actions are unwarranted. However, it may also give him time to reconsider his approach to dealing with you if he sees your patience and willingness to work through process, even if it means it takes longer. -- Avanu (talk) 03:29, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your advice. I will consider it. I am not sure if I understand why taking a time off would help to convenience anyone that I am not forumshopping. --Nenpog (talk) 09:19, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
He had several admins and an arbcom member telling him to drop the COI issue, I think that's enough to say maybe it's time to work on something else. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nenpog has already taken the same dispute to DRN, NOR, NPOV, COIN, COIN talk, 2 x IRC etc (he raised essentially the same issue in every place). the editor has also been blocked previously for edit warring in this topic: [2]. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is just false. I have already wrote about DRN, NOR talk, NPOV talk, COIN, and COIN talk above. IRC doesn't count for anything IMHO. I wonder if talk pages count, as the WP:FORUMSHOPPING is about noticeboards not talk pages, and in any case different matters were discussed in each. --Nenpog (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the point is, lots of time, or novel arguments can deter a claim of forumshopping. If you are putting the same debate into multiple places and doing so very very sequentially, it can appear to be forumshopping. There is an escalation process on Wikipedia, and sometimes this can be also construed as forumshopping. The thing is, I don't want to be discouraging, not encouraging with these suggestions. The debate on the X-Ray stuff is something that seems highly technical and for whatever reason, your fellow editors initially didn't agree with the way that you wanted to include the material. You could adjust the presentation of it, give it a different tone, attempt to start an article that covers it exclusively, find an article where it is a better fit, you could sum up what you want to add and ask other editors for help to determine how it might be rephrased or retooled to be bit for inclusion in some article, etc. Often if you simply come in with a very humble request that you believe something is important and you would like help, there will be some people who will be helpful. Of course there are some negative people too, but that's life. The other alternative, for now, is simply let it go, work on some other stuff for a while, and revisit this later. Fresh minds, fresh editors after a few months, and you might see a different outcome. But there are plenty of alternatives here, just try your best to avoid doing things that seem to violate policy. -- Avanu (talk) 16:22, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now Guy, and IRWolfie came to my talk page to accuse me of edit warring, and Guy threatened to block me, see diff. What really happened was that some editor added something, and Yobol reverted it with a wrong explanation, I reverted and wrote that the explanation is wrong for that revert, Yobol reverted again and discussed at the talk page, I discussed, doc james discussed, some other editor discussed, it seemed like there was a consensus for the edit with minor changes, and then the original other editor rewrote his edit and added it to the article. Is that edit warring? --Nenpog (talk) 18:11, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
After reading that, it feels as if Guy might have been reflexively commenting. I would just explain pretty much what you just said, and that the other editors and yourself came to a fine conclusion, and leave it at that. -- Avanu (talk) 18:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I admit that I did not double check to confirm that the edit warring actually occurred (No doubt Nenpog is going to shout GOTCHA!!! and quote part of this sentence out of context as he has done so many times before). All I know is this; I saw a warning about edit warring. I then saw Nenpog giving a completely bogus answer that showed zero understanding of WP:BRD, then I saw him rejecting all efforts to correct him (I don't think Nenpog has ever changed his mind on anything based upon other editors trying to explain where his thinking went wrong - he appears to be completely ineducable) So I told him what would happen if he edit warred again.
The foolowing is pure opinion; take it for what it is worth. Avanu, you might want to look at the bigger picture here. You have had your share of conflicts on Wikipedia, but as I see it, they are always the sort of things where even if I disagree, I can see that you have a valid point and have put some thinking behind your position. Nenpog isn't like you. Where you give intelligent responses and clearly have a good-faith desire to do what is best for the encyclopedia, Nenpog only works toward demonizing CT scans and attacking anyone who gets in his way. By giving him any sort of encouragement, IMO you are inadvertently making the problem worse. You also see problems in the responses to Nenpog, which is a good thing (I have paid attention to your criticism of me, and some of it hit home). Alas, while that criticism is good for folks like me, it is bad for Nenpog. It only encourages more misbehavior. Please consider taking a bit of a firmer stance against Nenpog being disruptive and please consider correcting those who you see reacting badly to Nenpog being disruptive on their user talk pages rather than in discussions with Nenpog. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:39, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's actually occured to me.... how to stay encouraging in one way, without contributing to making things worse. I think it is a very valid point, which is why I think I'll go ahead and stop contributing quite so much to this thread. I want every editor to feel that they are able to do what they feel is right, but unfortunately what each of us thinks is right at a certain time might not always be helpful. @Nenpog, if you're reading this, keep in mind that things aren't just a one-way street. Your actions get a response, and if you keep getting a certain response that you don't like, try something different, or try just avoiding the thing entirely. Good luck. -- Avanu (talk) 19:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note that edit warring did take place, reverting the revert of bold content is edit warring, this should instead be taken to the talk page. Nenpog also encouraged another editor to continue the edit war (see my comment on his page). IRWolfie- (talk) 11:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It was taken to the talk page. At the time of the reverts, there was a standing discussion about the same topic with the same editor, which that editor has completely ignored for a long time. --Nenpog (talk) 12:32, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lest anyone misunderstand, the reason that I did not bother to check is because I have never -- not once -- seen IRWolfie post anything that is not true, and I have seen Nenpog be deceitful on multiple occasions. Thus, when Nenpog added his latest false accusation to his long list of previous false accusations, I ignored it. W.O.M.B.A.T: Waste Of Money, Brains, And Time. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reference to the point. I read it. It is about applying rules you hate on other editors, in order to make them hate them too. I don't think I did that.
Additionally the example I gave there is not far fetched/made up, it is a real story although the names and places has been alter to protect the identities of the characters, and in order to address the problem in a generic form. --Nenpog (talk) 20:40, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"As a rule, one engaging in "POINTY" behavior is making edits which he or she does not really agree with, for the purpose of discrediting a policy or interpretation thereof."WP:NOTPOINTY - and I didn't make an edit that I don't agree with. --Nenpog (talk) 20:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for being gracious. I was cranky and came down a bit hard on you on Jimmy's talk page. It's been a very frustrating situation to watch, I know the dispute resolution process is likely to suck up energy and time I don't have, and the endless friction without a positive resolution is just very dispiriting. Choess (talk) 01:37, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think a bunch of the problem is simply people straying off track into personalities. doncram seems to dislike feeling persecuted, and if the arguments stayed impersonal and 'strictly business', I think we might see a better result. -- Avanu (talk) 01:39, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. If he'd address the content issues instead of complaining about the reporters, we'd be getting through things a lot faster. The other day, he was doing an article about an architect who worked on a lot of Carnegie Libraries, and I found a ref that mentioned he was Carnegie's brother in law. I dropped a note to Doncram, thinking he'd be interested: his response was Sarek, I don't welcome your commenting on my Talk page and I don't welcome your following my contributions closely, as you started to do today. In the past, what seemed like friendly interactions devolved into edit conflicts, "gotcha" claims, repeated confrontation, and wikihounding. --SarekOfVulcan (talk)02:06, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you'll recall, many months back, you raised my ire, and just recently I let the memory of that poke me into an uncivil response with you. I've decided that you're a great guy, a little bit on the pokey-stick side of things, but you have a earnest desire to do what is right. In other words, I let bygones be. You and Doncram have a ways to go on getting to such a point, and while it seems he's antagonized a lot of folks, I don't see him as beyond hope, just someone who needs a certain type of patience that not all of us have. If he says 'don't post on my page', let it be, and stick to good arguments on the articles. It is annoying to have people cast us out of their page, in fact, I did unequivocally say that to you once, but I don't feel that way now. And I don't intend to let it be a problem again. But I had to change my mindset on you before that could happen, and I had to realize that my actions were getting in the way of you and I being able to work together as colleagues. I wish you the best, and I hope that all of us can work toward welcoming all of doncram's contributions and guiding him in a more positive way. -- Avanu (talk) 02:19, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked Dennis Brown on ANI to try to resolve the issues, since I barely know him, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't previously been involved with any of the go-rounds before. He's agreeable, and plans to check in tomorrow to see if everyone will buy in to a nice structured discussion. Maybe this is what we need... --SarekOfVulcan (talk)02:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Nenpog vs. Guy Macon, Doc James, and Yobol. and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—
Hi! I withdrew the RFC/U. blanked the page, and asked for deletion. This nuked a couple of your comments but I figured you would not mind. Feel free to revert if you do. Cheers! --Guy Macon (talk) 01:50, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is no problem whatsoever. I think Nenpog is really digging his own grave here, but like I said, I think he's said he is going to accept the ruling but is going to exhaust his appeal process first. Not my first choice, and I don't think he's being smart about this, but it is something our process provides for. -- Avanu (talk) 01:58, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On a related note, I typed up a response to the Admin overreach / raking up muck post, then I deleted it. Then I created / deleted it twice more and decided to sleep on it. Here's the thing; every so often I see something you wrote that makes me reexamine my thinking. Even when I end up disagreeing, I find the comments to be valuable and thought provoking. In this case I really don't want Nenpog unblocked on a technicality and then instantly re-blocked -- and I think the false accusations against the doc are enough to justify a permanent ban -- but on the other hand, you make a very good point about one person going cowboy and bypassing procedures, and it was wrong to criticize you for making that point.
BTW, Nenpog has never accepted anything, and IMO he is about as likely to give up voluntarily as I am of becoming he pope. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:29, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I look forward to you getting to ride in the Popemobile one day. And yeah, I don't see a lot of hope there, but the fact that he committed to respecting the community result made me think he would do his usual pointless debate and then be done, and hopefully turn into a productive editor. I'm not sure that will ever happen at this point. But who can say. -- Avanu (talk) 06:35, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reply to your comment at RfArb
I didn't feel like making the rfarb any larger, so I'm going to respond to your last comment right here. I agree that there was no emergency requiring immediate attention. I think the reason there was really no outcry against the block then is that anyone who payed attention to Nenpog is basically sick of him (with the exception of two or three people). So ignoring those three people, everyone, perhaps even the arbitrators themselves, didn't want to see Nonpog's next edit, given that his previous 400 consisted of twisting policies, ignoring complaints, and hurling accusations. My opinion, anyway, and perhaps I'm projecting. In fact, the special way that Nenpog irked me is why I entered the discussions and kept my mop away from him. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
to High 
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