Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions
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Please explain...? [[Special:Contributions/75.202.62.37|75.202.62.37]] ([[User talk:75.202.62.37|talk]]) 11:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC) |
Please explain...? [[Special:Contributions/75.202.62.37|75.202.62.37]] ([[User talk:75.202.62.37|talk]]) 11:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC) |
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:As a Muslim I think it would be really cool to have the pres.'s full name in the article's title - esp. if a serial killer can have his name in the title!!! |
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:Because most people call him Barack Obama. The [[Ronald Reagan]] article isn't titled "Ronald Wilson Reagan." '''<font face="Arial">[[User:Acroterion|<font color="black">Acroterion</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<font color="gray">(talk)</font>]]</small></font>''' 12:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC) |
:Because most people call him Barack Obama. The [[Ronald Reagan]] article isn't titled "Ronald Wilson Reagan." '''<font face="Arial">[[User:Acroterion|<font color="black">Acroterion</font>]] <small>[[User talk:Acroterion|<font color="gray">(talk)</font>]]</small></font>''' 12:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:32, 18 September 2012
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Frequently asked questions
Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
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Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 81, 82, 83 |
Historical diffs, Weight, Race |
This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Atrocities
http://www.webcitation.org/6Ad6E3mFs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Defense_Authorization_Act_for_Fiscal_Year_2012#Controversy_over_indefinite_detention
Anyone care to take a stab at integrating these into this article without being overwhelmingly negative? Kobra (talk) 19:27, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- I think we'll pass, thanks. Fringe criticisms that have little to do with a bio. Tarc (talk) 19:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- What, you want a section labeled "Atrocities Committed by Obama" or something? I am assuming that there is some discussion of this issue in the article on his presidency and there's clearly a stand alone article on the NDAA FY12 itself. Not sure what more you are wanting since the issue hasn't had a great deal of impact, certainly not enough to make the bio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund (talk • contribs) 13:33, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- there's not going to be a 'controversies' section. check talk page archives re that issue. certainly not an 'atrocities' section. ugh. Cramyourspam (talk) 20:43, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Maobama
Hi. There's a discussion of the redirects Maobama and Chairman Maobama at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2012 September 11#Maobama, if anyone is interested. --MZMcBride (talk) 15:13, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
Major changes to lede
I reverted a 13 September 2012 WP:BRD series of edits by Joker123192 (talk | contribs) to the lede, that changed it
from:
Barack Hussein Obama II (born August 4, 1961) is the 44th and current President of the United States. He is the first African American to hold the office.
Born in Honolulu, Hawaii, Obama is a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he was president of the Harvard Law Review. He was a community organizer in Chicago before earning his law degree. He worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1992 to 2004. He served three terms representing the 13th District in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004, running unsuccessfully for the United States House of Representatives in 2000.
Several events brought Obama to national attention during his campaign to represent the State of Illinois in the United States Senate in 2004, including his victory in the March 2004 Illinois Democratic primary and his keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004. He won the Senate election in November 2004, serving until his resignation following his 2008 presidential election victory. His presidential campaign began in February 2007, and after a close campaign in the 2008 Democratic Party presidential primaries against Hillary Rodham Clinton, he won his party's nomination. In the 2008 presidential election, he defeated Republican nominee John McCain, and was inaugurated as president on January 20, 2009. Nine months later, Obama was named the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize laureate. In April 2011, he announced that he would be running for re-election in 2012.
As president, Obama signed economic stimulus legislation in the form of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 and the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 in response to the 2007–2009 recession in the United States. Other major domestic policy initiatives include the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010, and the Budget Control Act of 2011. In foreign policy, Obama ended US military involvement in the Iraq War, increased troop levels in Afghanistan, signed the New START arms control treaty with Russia, ordered U.S. military involvement in Libya, and ordered the military operation that resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden. In May 2012, he became the first sitting U.S. president to publicly support legalizing same-sex marriage.
to:
Barack Hussein Obama II (born August 4, 1961) is the 44th and current President of the United States. He is the first African American to hold the office. He also was a member of the Illinois State Senate from 1997 to 2004, a member of the United States Senate from 2005 to 2008, and was the recipient of the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize.
Born in Honolulu, Hawaii to Kansas native Stanley Ann Dunham and Kenyan exchange student Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., Obama was raised at first by his mother in Hawaii and Indonesia, and then by his grandparents in Hawaii again. Following his high school graduation in 1979, he went on to become a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he elected the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. Before earning his law degree, he was a community organizer in Chicago, working primarily as director of the Developing Communities Project. In 1992, he was married to Michelle Robinson, with whom he has two daughters named Malia and Sasha. From 1992 to 1997, he worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School. In 1995, he published his widely-praised memoir entitled Dreams from my Father, which would later be followed by a book outlining his political beliefs and opinions entitled The Audacity of Hope in 2006 and a children's book entitled Of Thee I Sing in 2010. He represented the 13th District in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004, running unsuccessfully for the United States House of Representatives in 2000. Obama rose to national prominence during his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention, and his subsequent election to the U.S. Senate that same year. In 2008, he successfully ran for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination, narrowly winning a close primary campaign against Hillary Rodham Clinton. He then went on to defeat Republican nominee John McCain in an historic election victory, and was inaugurated as president in January 2009.
As president, Obama signed economic stimulus legislation in the form of the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 and the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 in response to the 2007–2009 recession in the United States. Other major domestic policy initiatives include the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010, and the Budget Control Act of 2011. In foreign policy, Obama ended US military involvement in the Iraq War, increased troop levels in Afghanistan, signed the New START arms control treaty with Russia, ordered U.S. military involvement in Libya, and ordered the military operation that resulted in the death of Osama bin Laden. In May 2012, he became the first sitting U.S. president to publicly support legalizing same-sex marriage. Obama is currently running for re-election as the Democratic Party's presidential nominee in the 2012 presidential election.
specifically:
- changing:
Born in Honolulu, Hawaii,
Obama is a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School,
where he was president of the Harvard Law Review.
to:
Born in Honolulu, Hawaii
to Kansas native Stanley Ann Dunham and Kenyan exchange student Barack Hussein Obama, Sr.,
Obama is a graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School,
where he was elected the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. - adding:
Obama was raised at first by his mother in Hawaii and Indonesia,
and then by his grandparents in Hawaii again.
Following his high school graduation in 1979, - changing:
He was a community organizer in Chicago before earning his law degree.
to:
Before earning his law degree, he was a community organizer in Chicago,
working primarily as director of the Developing Communities Project. - adding:
In 1992, he was married to Michelle Robinson, with whom he has two daughters named Malia and Sasha. - changing:
He worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School
from 1992 to 2004.
to:
From 1992 to 1997,
he worked as a civil rights attorney in Chicago and taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School. - adding:
In 1995, he published his widely-praised memoir entitled Dreams from my Father,
which would later be followed by a book outlining his political beliefs and opinions entitled The Audacity of Hope in 2006
and a children's book entitled Of Thee I Sing in 2010. - changing:
Several events
brought Obama to national attention duringhis campaign to represent the State of Illinois in the United States Senate in 2004,
including his victory in the March 2004 Illinois Democratic primary and
his keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004.
to:
Obama rose to national prominence during
his keynote address at the 2004 Democratic National Convention,
and his subsequent election to the U.S. Senate that same year. - changing:
His presidential campaign began in February 2007,
and after a close campaign in the 2008 Democratic Party presidential primaries against Hillary Rodham Clinton, he won his party's nomination.
to:
In 2008, he successfully ran for the Democratic Party's presidential nomination,
narrowly winning a close primary campaign against Hillary Rodham Clinton. - changing:
he defeated Republican nominee John McCain,
to:
He then went on to defeat Republican nominee John McCain
in an historic election victory, - changing:
Other major domestic policy initiatives include
the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010, and the Budget Control Act of 2011.
to:
Other major domestic policy initiatives include
the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act,
the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, the Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Repeal Act of 2010, and the Budget Control Act of 2011.
repeating (without discussion) the misleading 10 September 2012 removal of:
the March 2004 primary unexpected landslide election which overnight made him a rising star in the national Democratic Party, started speculation about a presidential future, and led to the reissue of his memoir
which I had reverted,
as well as introducing a number of inaccuracies and material that is of dubious appropriateness for the lede section.
The most recent talk page discussion about the lede did not indicate a consensus to change it.
Newross (talk) 23:57, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- Why not save some talk page space and just link the diff? Wilhelm Meis (☎ Diskuss | ✍ Beiträge) 06:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Obama's home country
covered in FAQ #5 |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
About a week ago I brought up the issue of Pres. Obama's place of birth, given that his wife has described his "home country" as Kenya and his literary agent listing him as being from Kenya. Someone, who I presume was an administrator here, rather promptly and perhaps unscrupulously (please do not take this as an attack, as I am unfamiliar with policy and taking this at face value) hid the entry and shrunk the text size. The issue was immediately discarded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_75#Regarding_Obama.27s_place_of_birth However, there is still the matter of what all this means. Should the article mention these things somewhere (I can't edit). Perhaps, "Kenya, however, has been described as his home country by Michele Obama and his literary agent." — Preceding unsigned comment added by YankeeJeff (talk • contribs) 00:22, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Also, I suppose "home country" means just what it means...I am not suggesting that anything but ambivalence should be placed in the article while mentioning the term. YankeeJeff (talk) 01:00, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
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First gay president
It should be noted in the main article. For more information, see: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/newsweek-cover-obama-gay-president/story?id=16338110#.UFZqsit6vo0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.144.167.237 (talk) 00:15, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
- The article already thoroughly covers Obama's support for gay rights. There's no need to refer to Newsweek euphemistically referring to him as the "first gay president", with all the possible misunderstanding that is included in such a description of him. SMP0328. (talk) 00:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Excessive purge rate
I think discussions on this page should be purged less often. 140.177.205.223 (talk) 14:52, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
- Unless it's blatant trolling or vandalism, all threads are preserved in the talk page archive. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:06, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Hussein is missing
Why is "Hussein" missing from The President's name in this article's title?
The articles on John Wilks Booth is not titled "John Booth", and the article on Lee Harvey Oswald is not titled "John Oswald".
Please explain...? 75.202.62.37 (talk) 11:49, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- As a Muslim I think it would be really cool to have the pres.'s full name in the article's title - esp. if a serial killer can have his name in the title!!!
- Because most people call him Barack Obama. The Ronald Reagan article isn't titled "Ronald Wilson Reagan." Acroterion (talk) 12:16, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- It's the second word in the prose and in the infobox. Anyone who reads the article will figure out what his middle name is. Hot Stop (Edits) 12:47, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- The article name itself and the top of the infobox generally reflect the colloquial rather than the legal name. That is why e.g. Newt's article is at Newt Gingrich, while Newton Gingrich is a redirect to that. Tarc (talk) 12:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- I strongly agree that Hussein should be in the article title as it we have never had another President with a name even remotely similar to Hussein. 173.61.192.214 (talk) 13:02, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, that's not going to happen, any more than we would move Calvin Coolidge to John Calvin Coolidge, Jr.. Tarc (talk) 13:38, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- That´s not sufficient reason not to follow WP:NAME. Maybe he should consider changing his name to James, though. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:57, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
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