User talk:Fram

If I have deleted a page you contributed as a copyright violation, but you are also the copyright holder for the original text, you can find more info on how to resolve this at Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials#Granting us permission to copy material already online.

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Afc article Johan Bollen

Thanks for the edit on the categories. I'm new and it's my first article. Hope the article will become notable enough as I continue work on it. Any hints are welcome, trying to digest as much of the documentation and recommendations as possible. Bluyten (talk) 13:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Novotel Citygate Hong Kong

Hi Fram, i come back to you for this (09:15, 24 June 2013‎ Fram (talk | contribs)‎ . . (2,233 bytes) (-3,920)‎ . . (Rv to version of October 2012, before it again became a tourist brochure. Please respect WP:NPOV and WP:NOT) (undo | thank)).

We must have not the same meaning of tourist brochure, i have made an outside observation of this hotel by add some unknown information about his design and adding some references. I picked the hotel information from the official website and all around internet to complete this Oct 2012 version. Please explain your point of view thx. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wongkarwai88 (talk • contribs) 07:06, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

"Well-equipped meeting facilities? A spacious timber sundeck? An open-sided cube of passion? "Being surrounded by passion fruit on the walls of the Lover’s Cube is intended to be beneficial to lovers and will add to their wellbeing."? 440 stylish rooms? The gallery of (literally) hotel brochure pictures? By the way, do you really own the copyright to these pictures? Fram (talk) 07:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Fram, thank for your reply. If these terms are too "commercial" for Wikipedia i will arrange to rewrite the content. I based my writing on others hotel's pages to be sure to do not infringe the Wikipedia regulation, it appears that i need change a little bit my wording sorry for that. Anyway for the pics i have the copyright i can give you the mail contact of the person in charge in this hotel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wongkarwai88 (talk • contribs) 08:48, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

deleted wiki page

I am on the APSE marketing committee and last night I posted our wiki page APSE: Association of People Supporting Employment First. Today I saw it was deleted due to my user name. I have since switched to a new account. Can I get my previous posting put back up under my new user name. Thanks.Nholz99 (talk) 14:00, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

It wasn't deleted because of your user name, but becaues it was written from a non neutral, promotional point of view. Wikipedia articles should be written from the point of view of an outside observer, with reliable, independent sources to support it. It should also be newly written, not copying text from other sources (while I don't know which source you copied, if any, the text looked suspiciously like the kind one would find in a brochure issued by the organisation or some such). You are free to recreate an article on APSE as long as you keep these things in mind. Please also check our WP:COI page which has more information about editing pages about subjects you are affiliated with. While not forbidden, it is in general strongly discouraged. Fram (talk) 14:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

There was no copied text. I am on the APSE Marketing committee. I interviewed several people who were instrumental in the formation of our organization and its continued success. I cited the two outside sources that I used in the article (Supported Employment wiki and the Dept. of Labor). The page was just a step by step history of our organization. I hope this is ok to repost as it was. Thank you.Nholz99 (talk) 22:45, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

DYK for Lilian Faithfull

Orlady (talk) 08:03, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Category:Historical painters

The term Historical painters does not mean creators of History painting but those of historical scenes from the late 178th century on. The category should be merged with Category:History artists which has an ambiguous title with no regular meaning. It is pointless to try to create a category for all makers of history painting in its correct wider meaning, including religious and mythological scenes, as the vast majority of artists before 1800, except for thoses who only painted still-lives or portraits etc, fall into this group. It would be like Category:Painters in oils. Johnbod (talk) 11:01, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I have a hard time following your arguments. Genre painting, portraits, landscapes, or allegorical painting are usually not included; religious painting, if included, is a ditinct subset (few people, if any, would e.g. call Jeroen Bosch a historical or history painter). Many art dictionaries / biographies specifically mention that painter X or Y was specialized in historical painting (like they do for portraits, landscapes, marines, animals, ...). On the other hand, very few will indicate that Xor Y was especially a "painter in oils". Can you provide some good sources for your distinction between "history painting" and "historical painting"? I haven't found them, but there are of course many, many relevant books out there. Fram (talk) 11:21, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

With a good source, I mean an indication that this is currently a typical distinction, not that an eminent 1854 source defined it thus (and still didn't make the distinction, he only gave a definition of what historical painting is for him, but no indication that he separated it from "history painting".)

I have an even harder time following yours, especially just above - this is nonsense - is it supposed to represent my views? It doesn't. Your current note on the category admits the name you have chosen, as you define it, is highly ambiguous - far too ambiguous to remain. Ruskin specifically says you not me - it is a very clear general definition, as isd that of the NG. Johnbod (talk) 13:04, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

There are two interchangeable terms, I use the most common one. You insist that the two are not interchangeable, without providing any serious evidence for this (someone defined one 150 years ago, without discussing the other; someone else defines the other, but doesn't discuss the former; nothing indicates that either of them makes the distinction you are making). For the moment, your position is WP:OR. Mine isn't, and isn't ambiguous either; using one of two synonyms isn't ambiguous. Fram (talk) 13:17, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

You've probably seen I've started Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2013_June_6#Categories:_History_artists_and_Historical_painters Johnbod (talk) 01:22, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

The Adventures of Tintin

There's talk of delisting The Adventures of Tintin as a FA, but there's a group working on it to try and salvage it. I remember you working with me on it all those years ago so thought I'd point you along to the discussion at Talk:The Adventures of Tintin. All the best, Hiding T 13:23, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm keeping an eye on it (and the discussion at Tintin Soviets), but haven't found the time to help yet. Fram (talk) 13:25, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Category:1936 in Guinea-Bissau

Category:1936 in Guinea-Bissau, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Tim! (talk) 05:54, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Artifact (EA)

Fair enough, looked like a cut-and-paste job to me, but that's suspicion rather than fact, so you're right Jimfbleak - talk to me? 14:48, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

KW

Hi Fram, many thanks for your message. I do intend to steer clear of any interaction with KW for the forseeable future; he knows that I am sorry and wish to work better with him in future, so I hope it's just a matter of time before we can get all back to normal. Regards, GiantSnowman 08:07, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Road Wage PROD

Hi. I thought I'd let you know that I've notified the creator of Road Wage (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) about this PROD. I'm sure it's an oversight but a PROD without notification or welcome can be seen as rather BITEy, when the article has been created by a new editor. Cheers. -- Trevj (talk) 09:59, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Yes, normally I notify editors of articles I prod, since it doesn't get the attention an AfD would generate. I forgot it this time. Fram (talk) 10:01, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks. -- Trevj (talk) 13:56, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
	You are awarded the Defender of the Wiki Barnstar for your outstanding investigation at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Colby in which you identified two seemingly hoax articles that now rank 3rd at the Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia. Mkdwtalk 20:43, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Dual cats

I think that everything in Category:Establishments in the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic by year‎ can probably be categorized within the corresponding Moldovan year as well, at least nominally. Beware of anything that's now in Transnistria (Tiraspol in particular); editors from there might not like it. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 21:15, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Oddly enough they come together for soccer, e.g. FC Tighina is listed as playing in Moldova despite their home town being in Transnistria. Most if not all Moldovian SSR establishments turn out to be soccer clubs, so it shouldn't be that controversial. 86.121.18.17 (talk) 21:24, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Please stop following me around to different discussions

Fram, as much bad history as we have please stop following me around and attempting to derail and sidetrack discussions. Its inappropriate and irritating. I know that WP:harassment and WP:Involved doesn't apply to administrators but please, please stop harassing me and following me around. Kumioko (talk) 14:51, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• WP:harassment and Wikipedia:Administrators#UNINVOLVED don't apply to administrators? That's a new one on me... -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 16:14, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
  • It has been said in many discussions unfortunately and even if it did apply its never enforced. Kumioko (talk) 16:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
    • Kumioko, you have followed me around to many more discussions and articles than I have ever followed you around. You turned up at AN with your usual complaints (plus an added problem where you couldn't even follow basic user talk page guidelines at Hasteur's page), so I took a look to see what this was all about. I noticed that you were bringing up the same page on another user's talk page, so I wondered what you had to say, bearing in mind that usually you go around complaining about me. For once, that wasn't the case, but since your comments there were clearly wrong, I thought I'ld help out and indicate what was the problem. Apparently this is now considered "derailing" and "sidetracking"? All my comments were to the point, factual, and civil, unlike many of your remarks. And Ohconfucius, what are you going on about? Care to point out what "uninvolved" hsa to do with this? I know that Kumioko has clear misconceptions about that shortcut, but it is sad if others only reinforce those misguided ideas. Fram (talk) 06:35, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
      • I was expressing my surprise at the assertion that WP:INVOLVED and WP:HARASS did not apply to Administrators. Unless you have an observation or knowledge to the contrary... -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 07:15, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
        • Ah, my apologies. I read it as if you were agreeing with Kumioko in claiming that I had violated "harassment" and "uninvolved". I misread your comment, and didn't understand why anyone would give more fuel to Kumioko's misconceptions. I've struck that part of my reply now. Fram (talk) 07:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
          • No problem. -- Ohc ^¡digame!_{¿que pasa?} 07:25, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Category:1920s in Saudi Arabia

Category:1920s in Saudi Arabia, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 09:10, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Category:1891 establishments in Finland

Category:1891 establishments in Finland, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:03, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Simple move request

Hi. Could you please move Royal Castle of Laeken to Royal Palace of Laeken? This is because it's not a castle. See Talk:List of castles in Belgium (which is a mess, but the only thing that everyone agreed on is that whenever possible, the word 'palace' should be used). I've already taken the liberty of changing the text to match the new title. Any questions or concerns, just let me know. Thanks! Oreo Priest ^talk 03:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

You're right, done. A simple Google Books search showed that the new title is clearly more common as well. Fram (talk) 06:35, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Gib

Feel free to delete some of the more dubious cave articles which haven't been touched too. I'm not convinced they're all notable and in all honesty I'm not sure that the Gib members should have really red linked some of them in the first place, but credit to them for expanding those which could be expanded. Remove them from the cave template once deleted.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 18:12, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S, I hope you don't mind but I've put your source warning section on here.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:36, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, I don't mind at all. I'll take a look at the cave articles, no idea yet when I'll do that though. Thanks for the note! Fram (talk) 06:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Did you delete any after?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld 09:26, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimmy Wales protection

The attacker may have switched to Jimmy Wales, so please have a look and protect if needed. I saw you protected User:Jimbo Wales, and I just reverted junk at Talk:Jimmy Wales. Johnuniq (talk) 11:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

June 2013

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Edin Murga may have broken the syntax by modifying 1 "[]"s and 1 "{}"s likely mistaking one for another. If you have, don't worry, just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 09:35, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

ANI notice

Hello. There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:24, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Note that the entire discussion in question (in which I mentioned you half-way through) is now hatted/collapsed as having been started by a troll. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:07, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed the backhanded way in which you suggested that I had done something terrible against Jimbo's wishes. It seems that even Kumioko didn't fall for it though. I can understand that that thread has been hatted as trolling. Fram (talk) 06:43, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Nothing "backhanded" about it. I don't think I'd describe your behaviour there as "terrible", either; but I certainly don't see it as constructive. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:07, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Was there anything problematic or wrong about the semi-protection? Had my squabble with Jimbo Wales anything, at all, to do with the topic at AN? Or was it just an extremely cheap shot, a way to get some petty revenge? I think the answer is pretty clear for outside observers. Fram (talk) 07:35, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo has said on his talk page that he is OK with the semi-protection, so it is fine. Whether it was appropriate for you to be the person to do it, is another matter. The posting at ANI was related to something Jimbo has talked about widely in the past and taken an interest in (including multiple reports by media sources about him doing so), thus was relevant. Your repeatedly posting on Jimbo's talk page after being asked not to, across multiple occasions (including within minutes of him asking you not to) tends to lead me to BWilkins' conclusions about your behaviour, and to Jimbo's conclusions about your motives.

It would be a good idea for you to respect Jimbo's wishes and stay off his talkpage in future. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:47, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Wow, an unbiased reviewer giving his opinion! I'll sure give this every attention it deserves. Your explanation of why your posting at ANI was relevant is a prime example of grasping at straws. I think that you are probably the last one that should lecture anyone about motives. Fram (talk) 06:37, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

I'll refrain from issuing a templated warning here - but just a polite reminder, you seem to have lost sight of WP:AGF somewhere along the way. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 06:53, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Oh no, feel free to give me a templated warning! I'm wondering which one you'll use though. Template:Don't reply to baiting or Template:DFTT? Fram (talk) 06:57, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Saving those two for Jimbo. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:41, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Edit from 2006

Hi Fram, good to talk with you again and we definitely appreciate your expert contribution whenever possible, as you have a long history with the article. As you may know, I am currently tracking down a source for every statement still in the current version of the article, otherwise it's going to be deleted. I tracked down one assertion made by the article and it led me, happily, to you! Can you please provide references for this edit. [1] Cheers. —Prhartcom (talk) 01:40, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

That a stamp was issued in 1979 is easy to verify, e.g. in the New York Times in 1991. That it was the first of many comics stamps in the Youth Philately series is correct but harder to verify (it can be seen in stamp catalogues of course). Perhaps the second part can be left out and only the "a stamp was issued" can be kept? Fram (talk) 06:40, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid the only phrase in the edit you made that day that I can verify is "Belgian Post issued a Tintin stamp in 1979". (I do not believe it celebrated a "day of philately".) The source you provide above does not verify the existence of this stamp. Others that I found do, however; I have deleted the edit and added verifiable information about this stamp. Cheers. —Prhartcom (talk) 16:15, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

" In 1979, Tintin even appeared, like royalty, on a Belgian stamp." comes from that source I provided. You have to scroll down beneath the ads though. Fram (talk) 06:44, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Good call, Fram

Your post on ANI regarding Jimbo was a good call. Thanks for bringing that to the attention of other admins, looks like they agree with you  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  11:40, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. AS could be expected, some editors use it to settle some personal scores, but that is business as usual of course. Shoot the messenger! Fram (talk) 11:42, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Salted page

You salted Alloy Digital after an overzealous user tried to create the page four times in a single day. That user's article was inappropriate, but I certainly feel the subject deserves an article, and have created a draft at User:WikiDan61/Alloy Digital. Unfortunately, I am unable to move this article into main space while the article is protected. Can you please remove the page protection so that my version of the article can be published? (Or review the version I have created and move it into mainspace yourself? That would work too!). Thanks! WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 18:25, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

I've unprotected it (it was going to expire today anyway); you are free to move your page there (I haven't checked it, we need to trust our fellow ezditors a bit!). Fram (talk) 06:39, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Page is published now. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 10:52, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Jimbo's talk protection

Hi Fram,

I do non believe Jimbo's talk should be protected for weeks. A vandal will find the ways around the protection anyway and will be right back, when the protection expires. There should be other ways to deal with vandals. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 16:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

There should be other ways to deal with banned editors, too, but if wishes were ponies... --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:04, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see you read my recent posts. It is great you agree with me! Actually dealing with banned editors is easy: banned editors should be treated as human beings. Wikipedians should learn how to let banned editors go. Banning should not be humiliation. Banning should not be punishment. I believe Wikipedia will be better off if banning is banned. In the most situations blocks are enough. Here's an interesting reading on the subject. Remember there are human beings listed in the banned users list, human beings many of whom are much better persons than some Wikipedians who supported their bans.76.126.142.59 (talk) 21:51, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Hmmm... WP:BANNEDEDITORSAREPEOPLETOO is still a redlink, unlike the one about IP addresses and the one about arbitrators. (Two much-maligned sub-classes of editors!) Maybe you should work on that. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 23:23, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

There's no need in a new Wikipedia policy. There's a need in a kind and reasonable person who knows Wikipedia inside out, maybe somebody as you. Why don't you start with nominating this list for deletion? Remember to deal with banned editors means letting them go. Deletion of the list will be a step in the right direction, and you will kill two birds with one stone: helping Wikipedia to deal with banned editors, and helping banned editors by letting them go. Or you could start with removing Peter from this list. His close family member is very ill, and it is my understanding Peter is not going to edit Wikipedia anyway. Try to do something kind and you will be treated kindly in return.76.126.142.59 (talk) 00:12, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, killing is not really my style. I think all of us would be happy to let banned editors go... but the reality is that banned editors sometimes don't want to go.

In the link you gave, someone claiming to be Peter talks at length about how he's in all sorts of discussions with arbcom and WMF and lawyers and such about Wikipedia, and how he has edited Wikipedia again in order to move things along. And other people there are busy advising him about retaining a lawyer or mounting a complaint against someone else's lawyer or being his own lawyer or various similar things. None of this sounds like "letting go" or wanting to be let go.

You may wish to comment on Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:The best way to avoid ever being blocked (2nd nomination). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:30, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The thing is that has nobody ever tried to treat Peter as a human being, nobody has ever tried to really let him go. He might have edited Wikipedia in order to move things along, but only because nobody has responded his emails. I believe I read somewhere a story about Jimbo and a vandal. This particular vandal was a really bad case, and then Jimbo contacted him somehow and very nicely asked him to leave Wikipedia alone. Guess what, the vandal did! He simply wanted to be asked nicely. Peter is not a vandal, he should be treated with dignity. There's no need to keep him in the list. There's no need to have this list on Wikipedia. There's no need to ban users. Blocks are enough.

Thanks for pointing out this funny essay, although I do not see how it is connected to our conversation, except maybe that the language used in the nomination by user Roscelese does not speak in her favor at all. She's probably not a very nice person that user Roscelese because in the nomination she's discussing the contributor and not the contributions, but I believe user Ched covered this matter well enough, and there's no need for me to add anything to it. 76.126.142.59 (talk) 02:04, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

I might have to give Fram their talk page back sometime, and this seems like that time ;) --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:30, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Help moving

Can you move Elisiva Fusipala Tauki'onetuku to ʻElisiva Fusipala Taukiʻonetuku for me?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

Done! Note, as usual, that I know nothing of the subject or the language, so my move is not a support for the new name. If someone opposes the move, I'll revert it and a WP:RM discussions will be needed. Not that I expect any problems, but on Wikipedia, you never know... Fram (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Category:1820 in Colombia, Category:1823 in Colombia and Category:1823 establishments in Colombia

Category:1820 in Colombia, Category:1823 in Colombia and Category:1823 establishments in Colombia, which you created, have been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 08:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Deleted page

Hi there - Our page was deleted before we could get content up and forward people to add their own. Can this be re-added? It is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cooperative_Trust; the reason for deleting was 'No explanation of significance (real person/animal/organization/web content/organized event'. How quickly and how many users need to add content before it's removed? Thanks!

Are there any independent reliable sources (newspapers, magazines, ... not affiliated with the group) that have given significant attention to the trust? WP:N and WP:ORG give more information on what type of groups warrant articles on this encyclopedia, and what groups don't. The article as it was written didn't give any indication at all that the trust is in any way "notable" (in the Wikipedia sense). Fram (talk) 06:33, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes - a few are listed below. http://www.cuna.org/Stay-Informed/News-Now/CU-System/Crash-Network-now-Cooperative-Trust-with-CUNA-Mutual-support/?CollectionId=8 http://filene.org/community/cooperative-trust http://www.cuna.org/Stay-Informed/News-Now/CU-System/Marshall-To-Lead-The-Cooperative-Trust-For-Young-Adults/ https://www.mcua.org/node/322 http://www.creditunionmagazine.com/ext/resources/Dailies/MONDAY2013.pdf http://www.cutimes.com/search?search=cooperative+trust&cmd=Search

• Filene, CUNA and MCUA are sponsors or partners of the trust, not independent sources. Creditunion magazine is primarily payed for by CUNA, so agian not an independent source at all. CUTimes seems to be the kind of website that reprints press releases word-for-word, not independent reporting on a subject. It still is only a single source, while the other five are clearly not independent sources. Fram (talk) 11:38, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Qin (surname)

Hello, you deleted Qin (surname) to allow a move requested by db-move, but at talk:Qin (surname), an open requested move existed at that time. Shouldn't the requested move discussion have been able to be let run, instead of moving the article through a db-move? -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 00:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

No, the db-move was undoing a recent move, back to the standard, stable situation. If a new name is wanted for the page, a move discussion can be had, but when there is doubt about the correctness of the recent undiscussed move, then a revert of that move is normal practice (even more so here, when the original mover was the one that wanted to move it back). Feel free to have a move discussion, my move back doesn't mean that I support or oppose any particular name a priori. Fram (talk) 06:30, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your response -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 06:55, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

AWB and Articles tagged for deletion

Hi there! I tagged Li Tianyi for A7 and I see you added tags to that pag, which is completely fine, but next time if there is a speedy tag on the article, please check it first so it can get deleted or the CSD gets rejected. Best Wishes Prabash.Akmeemana 12:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes I don't really know whether the article meets the CSD or not, and I prefer leaving that decision to others. Most ones I encounter I either delete ot remove the speedy, but when in doubt, I just let it stand for someone else to decide. Fram (talk) 12:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

NY Times article mentions you

Did you see this? Jane (talk) 06:59, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but thanks for dropping a note about it. I'm also mentioned in a few articles about the recent Jimmy Wales - Edward Snowden outing problems in some very prominent newspapers like Der Spiegel and the Neue Zurcher Zeitung. The result is that I'm banned from Wales' talk page and that some lone admin has promised to block me if I don't follow that rule. Apparently Jimbo only considers whistleblowers or critics "heroes" when the criticism isn't directed at him ;-) Fram (talk) 07:03, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Huh, that's interesting. As you can see I am not that in tune to "Wikipolitics", so thanks for the explanation! Looks like you're taking a lot of heat, so hang in there. Jane (talk) 07:54, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

No problem, I can use some heat after the long winter we had :-) But staying out of Wikipolitics and sticking to plain editing is often the best solution to keep enjoying this site. Fram (talk) 07:58, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I know! I totally agree, especially about the heat part - Happy Fourth of July, for what it's worth Jane (talk) 08:34, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Default sort revert

Hi Fram, if it is not necessary, why do we have? Yes VE puts all default sort additions under the cats.Egeymi (talk) 07:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Defaultsort is only necessary when it is different from the article title (e.g. the article Barack Obama is sorted as Obama, Barack). It is not case-sensitive, and should not contain accents and diacritics. For most articles, it is not necessary at all. And I thought that defaultsort should come in front of the categories, not after them, but I'll check on that before raising it as an error. Fram (talk) 07:23, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for informing me about it. You may try and you will see that VE puts all such additions under cats.Egeymi (talk) 07:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I checked, and according to the defaultsort docs, it may be placed beneath the categories. This violates the WP:APPENDIX style guide, where defaultsort comes in front of the categories, but visualeditor is clearly not written with any MOS in mind (note e.g. the way it removes spaces between stub tags or how it puts template parameters after each other instead of on a new line, and so on). Fram (talk) 07:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

This isn't going to go well...

Malleus is exceptionally rude when he flexes his muscles, but I fear blocking him for incivility, particularly for a month, is opening a major can of worms. Jus' sayin'... Doc talk 08:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• For what it's worth, I think it would be worth placing a link in his current block log to the old one to record that he has a history of this behavior dating back as far as 2008. — Scott • talk 12:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

• • It is already hard linked in the previous block log and the two accounts are clearly and obviously linked in many ways. I made sure of that when I did the final Malleus block.[2] There is no confusion that this would clear up by additional linking. The reason the block log wasn't moved over isn't Eric's fault as he did try to do a traditional move which would have moved the block log over, but it was denied by the Crat as the software won't allow moving accounts with over 50k edits. (I worked with WilliamH on this) I don't think anything else is needed and might seem a bit pointy if we did. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 12:33, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Re the previous log, I know; but it's not connected in the other direction. Not everyone is aware of this user's name change. I suppose it is mentioned on his user page, but I can't imagine that every admin combs through a user's page before deciding what grade of block is appropriate. — Scott • talk 12:51, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
      • But making a larger deal of it when the current linkage is adequate for all admin is just likely to cause a lot of drama and debate with very little to be gained. Anyone that would have an opinion on anything he does already knows. Any admin that would consider a block already knows. Seriously, it isn't worth the drama and further block log links are going to be seen as pointy, whether they are or not. It will look like you are kicking him while he is down, again, even if that is not your intent. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 13:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
        • I've put a link to the block log of the earlier account in the AN discussion; hopefully this will inform any future commenters who weren't aware of it, and perhaps also most of the earlier commenters who may not have been aware of it. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:13, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

I mentioned at ANI that 48 hours would be more reasonable. Eric normally doesn't comment on the person but on the behavior, and this seems like an isolated incident (at most a few hours in months of superlative editing). Kiefer.Wolfowitz 16:19, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

It is no secret that Eric and I get along well, but I still think I can maintain a degree of objectivity here. I did mentioned that I understood the block, but the duration might be more than required to get the job done. Looking at the totality of the circumstances, I think a duration of 48 to 72 hours is adequate for the job. Looking at the lead up, it does seem that he had plenty of prodding, which doesn't excuse his behavior, but it does explain it. I won't labor the issue, but did want to offer my perspective here in a somewhat quieter venue. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 17:01, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Earlier short blocks or early unblocks haven't changed anything (at worst they have sent the message that he can do as he pleases, he will be unblocked anyway). He has been shown (understandably) much more leniency than most other editors in the past. But we have chosen for Wikipedia a model where collaboration and civility are central (as one of the 5 pillars), and not one where good content work trumps everything else; at some point, enough is enough, and a different approach ha to be tried. Short blocks don't send the message home, then perhaps longer ones, like they are being applied to everyone else, will finally make it clear that civility is not an option but a necessity. And I don't see where he had "plenty of prodding" for [3] or [4]. The only one of those 5 links I gave which can be reasonably attributed to excessive baiting or prodding seems to be this one. Fram (talk) 07:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

@Dennis: "Looking at the lead up, it does seem that he had plenty of prodding, which doesn't excuse his behavior, but it does explain it." I can only assume I'm who you are referring to. What "baiting" or "prodding" occurred when this happened? Seriously. Turning a blind eye to clearly unacceptable behavior is even worse than calling them on it. It implicitly supports it. If I can't challenge this editor's behavior: who can? I should keep silent while witnessing abuse? And it's my fault for "baiting" if I speak up? Doc talk 07:48, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

You know, I blocked him for these edits, so I don't see what your reply has to do with my actions or my post above yours. If you weren't replying to me, then please change your indentation or add a username at the front of your post. Fram (talk) 07:55, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Doc, it isn't about blaming you, I'm saying two people were escalating the heat in a discussion. It doesn't excuse the behavior, and I've support a block, but you also escalated the discussion and that it is a mitigating factor. I expect editors will bump heads from time to time, so it isn't a personal judgement against you or Eric. I get along with both of you just fine, although I've worked close enough with Eric to actually understand him a bit more than most do. I've also chosen to discuss here rather than at the discussion, not because I think I am too biased to be objective, but out of respect for Fram because others might think my affinity for Eric would bias me, and I don't want to start drama and side discussions on "involved". Again, Eric did push it too far and I understand the block, the reasonable and necessary questions are: Is a month too long? Is 24 hours too short? As always, my focus is only on solutions as there is no justice here. The real question is only "what is the least amount of time to effectively prevent disruption?". Because there is no consensus as to duration (and some contention as to the block in general), Fram is in a unique position in that he has carte blanche to reduce the block if he felt it served some larger goal here. Again, I won't bludgeon him here or at AN about it, but I do feel obligated to simply point that out. Dennis Brown | 2¢ | WER 11:39, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I see no evidence at all that reducing the block length will increase the chance that we will have less such episodes in the future. If he wants to continue editing, then the message has to be clear that further similar comments will lead to longer and longer blocks. If he doesn't want to continue editing if it is no longer tolerated that he makes such comments, then that would be a loss, but it would be his choice. But I see no reason so far to lift the block or reduce the block length, and while there is opposition against both the block and the block length at AN (with some opposition going the other way and prefering a ban or longer block), to me it seems as if there is a clear consensus that the block was correct. Obviously, I'm not an unbiased reviewer of consensus here, so I'll not close (or unclose or reclose) the discussion there. Fram (talk) 11:48, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

A bit of "showing me the ropes" please.

Hi Fram. This is the first time I've ever "talked" on someone's page so if I'm doing it wrong please let me know on my talk page. Just wanted to as whether or not my status/ ability to edit/create pages is affected by an administrator like yourself reverting my edits and deleting my page. I'm new to this and don't know what being reverted a few times will mean to me. If so, could you maybe just edit it rather than revert :) I'll bear in mind who deserves an article next time hopefully, I just thought that he was relatively well-known and a page about a headteacher would be okay. Anyway, looks like you do great work on Wikipedia and I frankly, anyone who helps wikipedia has helped me. Any tips and advice if us newbies make mistakes would be appreciated. And out of curiousity, what is the disagreement between you and Jimmy Wales about? Thanks :) GiggsIsLegend (talk) 17:38, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Apologies about the Jimmy Wales thing, I've done a little digging and worked out what happened. But the answer about reverting would be appreciated :-) GiggsIsLegend (talk) 18:17, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

In general, people should have been the subject of significant attention in reliable independent sources (newspapers, magazines, TV, ...); this excludes passing mentions, or attention in sources that are close to the person (e.g. anything published by the school or other related institutions will not count towards his notability, although it can be used in his article otherwise). Local sources (the village newspaper and so on) are often discounted as well, as everything and everyone gets some attention there sometimes. WP:BIO explains this more thoroughly. Fram (talk) 06:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for that link. Give it a few years, I'll be almost as much of an expert as you are (hopefully). Anyway, thanks. GiggsIsLegend (talk) 13:25, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks!

Hej Fram!

I did not object to a block based on the insults on Wikipedia, but the "threat" accusation was untrue, as I tried to explain. The hour and the provocations did not help. Of course I regret the coarsity of my language, which reflected the hour and my "don't go to bed angry" policy.

I had wished that the predictions of a lack of interaction (made by WTT and Drmies independently) were more accurate than my assessment, which seemed to have been consistent with the ANI discussion of your proposal. 'Nuff said. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 13:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Unilateral unblocks

Please do not ever do that to a block I have placed again. If you are in a position to verify the IRC log and feel that Ironholds should have been blocked as a result of his commnents, that's fine: go ahead and block him, but that in no way excuses Kiefer.—Kww(talk) 14:50, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think you've had support from a single administrator for the length of your block and for the charge of a "threat". Please re-read what Fram wrote, which did not "excuse" anything. Afterall, I was blocked for many hours. Kiefer.Wolfowitz

I'm with Fram on this. Three months was way overboard. AutomaticStrikeout  ?  17:01, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Arbcom filing notification

You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Offsite comments and personal attacks and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. Additionally, the following resources may be of use—

• Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Requests for arbitration;
• Wikipedia:Arbitration guide.

Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 23:27, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Another badly photoshopped image

See commons:File:Spamalot ensemble.jpg. I also mentioned it in the deletion discussion on commons. Hairy Dude (talk) 20:43, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Fram (talk) 07:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Bill Aliʻiloa Lincoln

Could you move Bill Ali'iloa Lincoln to Bill Aliʻiloa Lincoln?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 00:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC) And:

• Aloha ʻAina to Aloha ʻĀina

Both done. Fram (talk) 07:31, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Category:1932 in Lesotho

Category:1932 in Lesotho, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Tim! (talk) 06:17, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Achinger coat of arms

You wrote: "I have currently tagged thos starting with A-C, I'll continue tagging the remainder tomorrow morning." Such massive changes usually require a community discussion in one place. Please wait for the outcome for whatever you already did and then proceed; This may save your and others time. I have posted a notice on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:22, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Never mind. I didn't notice that you nominated all of them in a single AfD page. Staszek Lem (talk) 16:39, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds opened

You recently offered a statement in a request for arbitration. The Arbitration Committee has accepted that request for arbitration and an arbitration case has been opened at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds. Evidence that you wish the arbitrators to consider should be added to the evidence subpage, at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds/Evidence. Please add your evidence by July 26, 2013, which is when the evidence phase closes. You can also contribute to the case workshop subpage, Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Kiefer.Wolfowitz and Ironholds/Workshop. For a guide to the arbitration process, see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Guide to arbitration. For the Arbitration Committee, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:56, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

nowiki tags

Filter 550 picks up the nowiki tags without relying on the Visual Editor tag.—Kww(talk) 15:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, I'll check it out. Fram (talk) 18:24, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Seems very useful! Fram (talk) 06:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Barnstar of Diligence

You deserve about a hundred of these. Fram, thank you for doing so much work in finding and reporting problems with VisualEditor. I wish I could do something more useful in a practical way, like make "Bug found by Fram" be a Bugzilla priority status that outranks all the others, but for now, thank you: thank you for your diligence, for your kindness about reporting irritating problems, for your clear reports, and for your patience while they get fixed. Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 01:00, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Much appreciated. Fram (talk) 06:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Beware VE burning your time

I saw your note how VE has derailed your month, and similar with many veteran users. Let other people do the edit-fixes. I have counted the prior nowiki-tags by wikisearch (search: nowiki-the), as 2,054 on Thursday, and 2,059 on Friday. As long as other editors re-edit for "nowiki" then the nowiki-usage counts will remain low, or a Bot could be written next month to fix the nowiki-patterns. It is ironic how Jimbo took 3 weeks in July to work a totally new adventure, advising us to do likewise, and instead we get "babysitting the infant VE" as diaper duty. They want VE to show how only newcomers expand articles, how, by making veteran editors delay all new articles and resort to being menial glitch fixers. Don't let them derail important new work any longer. Other users can help with edit-fixes. An estimated 57 million children have limited access to education or books. -Wikid77 (talk) 06:17, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't see their motives as that extreme, but sometimes too much emphasis is indeed put on new editors, while neglecting to cater to existing ones as well. I'll not comment on Jimbo, let's just say that I don't mind him not editing Wikipedia for weeks or longer... Fram (talk) 06:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Devil's Gap Footpath

I don't know you and you don't know me but I take objection to your false allegations claiming I am someone who I am not, btw nice way of putting off new editors so stop trolling and get a life, thank you. Toromedia (talk) 07:43, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Please check our WP:COI guidelines before editing pages like Defenders of Gibraltar again. And read WP:CIVIL. Considering that you are a Tommy Finlayson of Gibraltar and had edited the Tommy Finlayson article, my apparent mistake wasn't that strange though. Finally, please don't intriduce copyright violations into Wikipedia, as you did with Shipping in Gibraltar, taken from [5]. Fram (talk) 07:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Well, well, well, here we are again after explaining to you that I am a newbie and I log on to find out that you have gone out of your way to deliberately delete the last 3 articles that I spent ages writing. How big of you! These bulling tactics of yours is what gives Wikipedia a bad name and puts people off from editing, Bully Bully Bully! You never considered contacting me or even helping me edit did you? Toromedia (talk) 21:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Files missing description details

Dear uploader: The media files you uploaded as:

• File:De meesterschilder.jpg
• File:Ezelrit op het strand.jpg

are missing a description and/or other details on their image description pages. If possible, please add this information. This will help other editors make better use of the images, and they will be more informative to readers.

If you have any questions, please see Help:Image page. Thank you. Message delivered by Theo's Little Bot (opt-out) 16:10, 17 July 2013 (UTC)