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September 12

if the stock company Raiffeisen Austria have problems or financial troubles,

can they get money from the German DZ-Bank? I know that if a Raiffeisen in Germany has problem, they are getting "help" straight from the DZ-Bank-Tower in frankfurt Main, because this Bank is the headquater of all raiffeisen in Germany but I don´t know how it is handled in Austria, slowenia and Italy, where also Raiffeisen Bank exist. Can someone tell me the information? --ZinssätzigeTargobank (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Raiffeisen Zentralbank is our article about the bank, but it doesn't go into any details about the internal accounting procedures of the group - such information is likely to be commercially sensitive. Tevildo (talk) 09:14, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Money cravings

At what ‘age’ does a male/female human being starts craving for 'money'? -- Space Ghost (talk) 19:27, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Female human beings never do, Russell.mo. But for males it is usually around the age of $; although this may vary. In much of Europe it now happens when a boy turns €, whilst in Britain it is still normally a bit later, around the age of ₤. μηδείς (talk) 19:58, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

All humans do. According to calculation preadolescent is the age, it was earlier for me, so I'm confused... -- Space Ghost (talk) 21:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Think Medeisis right. Little girls only want ponies, then cloths (lots of them) , shoes (lots of them), desinger hand-bags, diamonds (as many and a big as possible) and all the things that only money can buy – err.. but who provides all that money..?

So when is the age of $, €, ₤? -- Space Ghost (talk) 21:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Medeis was teasing, of course. Some people would claim that "craving for money" is a character defect, but, if you mean the age at which children learn the value of money, then it is sometime between four and ten. Very young children like bright things, so they will often prefer a bright penny to a dull dollar or pound. By ten years of age, nearly all children know the value of money and what it will buy, though large amounts outside their experience will confuse them. Most children do not develop a serious avarice problem, and will give money away if they see that someone else needs it more than they do. Many retain this approach into adulthood. Dbfirs 21:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The world is full of cynics, and Oscar Wilde caused his character Lord Darlington in Lady Windermere's Fan to say "A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:44, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

WP:OR warning... My nephew who is 9 is beginning to understand the idea of what money can buy. While his brother who is 7 doesn't have much of a clue of how much things are and such. Recently, the 9 year old was talking to my wife about how he had a 5 dollar bill. Some hours later, he threw out a can that my wife was going to redeem for 5¢. She decided to make a lesson out of it and asked for his $5. She then gave him back $4.95. He didn't care for that since A) he knew the $5 was more and B) he now had just a bunch of ones and some change instead of the higher value $5. And yes, he has a harder time with amounts that he's not familiar with. He has the impression that the $17 that we spent on pizza when he visited was not quite a lot of money but at least somewhat more than he'd ever had. Dismas|^(talk) 22:38, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

A few adecdata, then. When I was six, the ice-cream truck came by and I asked for a popsicle, so my dad handed me a dollar and told me to buy one. I burst out crying, since I had no idea how money worked; everything until then had been bought for me. (This fits with the ponies, clothes and shoes, etc., theory above.) Once I started junior high, money became the means to the end of buying books and hanging out at the Friendly's after-hours at the mall. I paid my way to Europe with savings from my high school job, and paid my way through college. It wasn't until I got a few jobs with tips/commission that the $ itself became the object sought out abstractly, with no immediate purchase in mind.

At the age of eight, my nephew was given the choice of either normal presents for his ninth birthday and first communion, which were a month apart, or to get the $400.00 Lego Death Star he had been pining for since Christmas, but on the condition of receiving no other presents from anyone until the following Christmas. He wisely chose the Death Star, which took almost a year to assemble. Since then, both he and his younger brother have been plying their elders with requests in the form of, "Can I have the Imperial Star Destroyer? It's only $100.00." And they know exactly how much the Pokemon cards or earphones they want cost ahead of time, and try to convince us of how reasonable their price is. μηδείς (talk) 23:57, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Father: Son, don't you know the value of a dollar?

Young son: Sure, Pop, that's why I asked for twenty!

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:25, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

μηδείς, Dbfirs, Jack of Oz, Dismas, Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots:

Hello! sorry for the delay, I've been away from my PC. Festival (Eid) is coming soon, so I had to get ready...

I'm going with DBfirs's statement, okay! It is what I was hoping for in a way...

Thanks friends! Take care...

Space Ghost (talk) 23:17, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't think any of us were disagreeing. Happy Eid. μηδείς (talk) 02:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

-- Space Ghost (talk) 06:49, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

September 13

Karate vs. aikido

In a fight between two people of equal size, one highly skilled in karate and the other one in aikido, who would win? 2601:646:8E01:9089:DCFB:3468:F080:7753 (talk) 07:52, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Unanswerable question. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 14:52, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

But many have tried: see Aikido vs Karate Demonstration, Aikido vs Karate 1 and Aikido VS Karate 1e. You may also be interested in A COMPARISON OF TWO TRADITIONAL, YET SEEMINGLY DIFFERENT, JAPANESE STYLES: Karate-do and Aikido by Tom Muzila. Alansplodge (talk) 15:14, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

KägeTorä is right, this isn't an answerable question. For a start, karate is a generic name for a number of Japanese martial arts. Even if we talk about diffirent scenarios, we still wouldn't be able to give a definitive answer because on one day it might be one, and on the next, the other. Different styles sometimes have their own unique techniques but most styles borrow from others. Aikido for example relies on using an opponent's weight and momentum and uses a lot of throws which is great if you have the space, but not so useful in a packed nightclub. Goju Ryu on the otherhand uses a lot of close up techniques such as elbow strikes, knee strikes and locks (yes, I know Aikido employs locks too). Perhaps if you tell us why you want to know, we could be of more help. Are you thinking about taking up a martial art?--Ykraps (talk) 16:00, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Samurai vs. Vikings

I realize that this must have been asked before, but here goes: Suppose a hypothetical scenario where a large raiding force of Vikings landed in Japan and was met by an equally-sized force of samurai -- in this scenario, who would win? (Assume both sides have equipment and training typical for their own side at the beginning of the High Middle Ages; also assume both sides have a proportional mix of spearmen and archers as called for by their own military doctrine, but no cavalry -- the Vikings couldn't bring their horses with them, and the samurai didn't have time to saddle theirs.) 2601:646:8E01:9089:DCFB:3468:F080:7753 (talk) 08:00, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

They would generally settle down to a trade agreement. Vikings were traders, and not invaders. They only invaded when the local population was against them. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 13:45, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Which was often. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:15, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

On an individual levle - List_of_Deadliest_Warrior_episodes#Episode_2:_Viking_vs._Samurai. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 15:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

"Suppose a hypothetical scenario" is the kiss of death for a Ref Desk question. Right at the top of this page, it says "We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.". This is definitely at least two out of three of those. We can't possibly know what would happen in such a hypothetical situation - who knows what other situations would apply? Where on earth do you expect us to be able to find this answer? Clearly it's not something that's ever been carefully studied by experts - certainly not with all of your detailed caveats and restrictions. There are so many vast unknowns here that any answer that anyone here gives will be no better than flipping a coin...so I'm flipping...it's tails - so I can tell you with 100% confidence that the Vikings were so sick of being at sea for over a year in a piddly little longboat that they gave up at the first sign of trouble. Even if your question made sense - and fell within our rules - the Samurai were around for around 800 years - going through ten distinct and total changes in culture, tactics, weaponry and armor and the Vikings were active for at least 300 years and underwent similarly large changes.

Sorry - we can't answer this - it's a meaningless question with the only possible answers being useless, unreferenced junk. Go flip a coin...

SteveBaker (talk) 17:53, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Stain of sperm

Hi, I'd like to know how to clean an old and dry stain of sperm on a fleece jacket. Notice that I already tried to clean it in a washing machine. Thank you for any advice. Anonymous.--85.171.139.208 (talk) 15:15, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried an approach smmilar to that use for raw egg? (see-http://web.extension.illinois.edu/stain/staindetail.cfm?ID=9)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sfan00 IMG (talk • contribs)

The enzymes in saliva are good for dissolving all sorts of natural substances. You could try licking it off.--Ykraps (talk) 16:03, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

We do have an article on stain removal, but it's not one of our better ones. This site has some useful tips - a long soak in salt water is effective on most organic stains, or you can use an enzyme-based stain removal product. Tevildo (talk) 17:52, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Years ago, I don't remember the source, I read that hair spray gets sperm stains off cloth. It was some behind the scenes sort of interview thing, if you wondering how something might come up. Dismas|^(talk) 22:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm assuming we're talking about semen here, not spermatozoa separated out of the semen. There's a lot more in semen than just the wriggly fellers. But then, I wonder why we don't call sperm whales "semen whales". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:40, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Because seamen hunting semen whales would be weird. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:27, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

@JackofOz, probably because the whale's 'sperm', or properly spermaceti, has nothing to do with semen but everything to do with Greek and Latin nomenclature. Richard Avery (talk) 06:37, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Technically it doesn't, but word-origin-wise it does. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:16, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Specifically, its called that because thats what people thought it was. Iapetus (talk) 10:06, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Right. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:28, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Richard. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:37, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Fabric 6" under the soil

I was at a friend's house today. The friend's husband was digging a ditch to put in a water line. I didn't want to bother anyone with the question at the time, so here I am.

In this photo, you can see a fabric that is about 6" under the soil. The ditch was being dug between the gravel driveway and a barn. What is that fabric for? Thanks, Dismas|^(talk) 22:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

It's funny, because I was just talking about this with a neighbour who was telling me about some construction he did. The membrane is a water barrier, and it is typically covered with sand and gravel, as you can see here with the natural clay subsurface beneath. The purpose is to protect the layers above the membrane from groundwater damage. Unfortunately my informant just said it was called "membrane" which is obviously not the technical term. I'll see if I can find out an article to link to when I next speak to a relative who's an engineer. μηδείς (talk) 22:21, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

See Damp proofing. Nanonic (talk) 22:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Actually, thinking about it, it may be too far from the building. It could also be part of a groundwater run off into a french drain (or other) elsewhere on the property to prevent waterlogging or flooding of the topsoil. Of course it may have been part of the moisture protection barrier of a previous structure. Nanonic (talk) 22:35, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• Weed barrier.--TMCk (talk) 22:39, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

• It's geofabric. This is a kind of damp proofing, but it certainly will not work as a weed barrier except in very specific cases. μηδείς (talk) 00:39, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• Could be geofabric as well but it sure has nothing to do with "damp proofing".--TMCk (talk) 00:49, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

These seem to be reasonable articles under which to start. I know almost nothing of the subject, so I am only reporting what I have been told by an engineer and a construction worker in their 70's, both of whom have mentioned the subject, and it matches what I have been told in the past. μηδείς (talk) 01:06, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Geofabric for a gravel driveway makes sense. Keeps the soil in place, prevent potholes, allows water to drain and keeps gravel separated from the base. Judging by the google results it's not an uncommon application. Ssscienccce (talk) 05:17, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

What makes you think he's putting it in? To me it looks like he's laid down some builder's plastic to heap the excavated soil onto.--Ykraps (talk) 07:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any implication he's putting the fabric in' rather it looks as though it was cut through to dig the trench. Dismas didn't say this, and if you look at it, the edges are torn. It seems apprent this was laid down on top of the rather clayey looking soil, and gravel and sand were layered above it.

Hmmm, well I don't think it's geofabric because firstly that is a fabric and this looks more like plastic, and secondly one might reasonably expect to find bark or gravel or even brick pavers above. One certainly wouldn't expect to find weeds! And I don't think its a damp proofing membrane because this would prevent surface water drainage and one would expect the ground above to be wetter than it appears. If by water line we are talking about a water supply pipe (taking water to somewhere as opposed to taking it away), there is no requirement, in the UK at least, to employ any DPC, gravel or weed proof membrane so like you, I don't think it's going in either. If it is, as you appear to be suggesting, something that was already there, I propose that it's a piece of refuse which was either buried or has become buried. If one is temporarily removing soil however, one would almost certainly put it on something like builder's plastic because scraping soil off grass directly is damn near impossible. Without more information though, this is all guesswork.--Ykraps (talk) 21:31, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Which game is this?

I am looking for information (name(s), origin, varieties) on a certain game. So far the closest I've found online looks like this, where it is titled "Hammerspiel" ("hammer game"), but googling that term didn't really lead me any further.

The variety I know is slightly different: It has three goals per player (instead of the two on the photo I linked to), and the goals are made of metal, just like the pegs. The hole in the middle has a peg inside which can be made to protrude (and push the metal ball lying on top) by means of a mechanism driven by a wooden thingy you hit with your fist. You can hit it soft or harder, and the ball will jump accordingly, sort of like a high striker (but this is just how you get the ball in play). I couldn't spot anything like that on the photo either.

The playing surface is a bit more elevated in the middle than at the rim, basically like a very flat volcano (or cone).

Four people play the game, and their aim (individually or in teams of two) is to receive as few goals as possible. You wield a mallet to hit the ball (no fingers allowed), and your mallet always has to be coming from under one of your goals — you have to direct it through the goal in order to play the ball.

Friends of my parents have owned one of these since the 1960s, but they have no idea what it was called then.

Any pointers, leads, anecdotes etc. are welcome. Thank you in advance! ---Sluzzelin talk 22:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

With some searching, I came across this page [1] about "Chüngel" and a google image search on this shows a lot of rabbits and various similar wooden boards [2]. And the board called Felsberger Chüngel has three goals per player and this game is described by the page I found as the best known. -Modocc (talk) 23:02, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Also known as "Hamertjesspel" or ‘little hammer games’ in Flanders and Holland per [[3] and an image search on Hamertjesspel shows only the game boards [4] and no bunnies. --Modocc (talk) 23:39, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Goodness, Modocc, you got it! The example I am most familiar with is exactly the one pictured in your link to the Felsberger Chüngel. (and it's the one that made my pacifist and normally placid grandmother smack my grandfather's wrist with her mallet. It's really a great game!). Amazing help (I am a keen googleur, and live in Switzerland to boot, but I couldn't find it. You're a star! ) In case anyone's interested: the "wooden thingy" I mentioned above, for flinging the ball into play, is the dark blob at the top (north) side of the board in the image of Modocc's link. And thanks for the varieties too. I now also saw the Luxembourg link I gave has a French version too, where the game is called "jeu des marteaux" (again "game of hammers/mallets"), a google image search whereof yielded yet more varieties. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:57, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

This is the first I've seen any of these and I've enjoyed finding the game. When I was in college, I may have spent more time winning and playing free pinball games than studying. :-) --Modocc (talk) 02:16, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

September 14

missing information

First. Thank you for being there! I have learned a lot by searching your web site. Just two things re-the lack of information. One- Searching movies, I never see a rating. G-PG-R etc. Or reference to language, violence, situations, etc. It would be helpful if the rating was included in the information. Second. Searching the reality show "Naked and Afraid" Are the contestants paid? Are they paid only if they complete the challenge? Do they get partial payment if they "Tap out"? Are they volunteer? Your article does not answer these questions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:601:C700:B629:919D:2336:39A1:79E (talk) 06:14, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

For the first part of your question, ratings vary by country and there are lots of countries. Please see motion picture rating system for more information.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah the absence of ratings in movie articles is a deliberate omission. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film#Ratings for the reasons why. This would be all very well if ratings were available somewhere else instead, but they may not be. Many IMDB pages don't show the movie's rating either. --Viennese Waltz 08:24, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That's not my experience with IMDB. On the contrary, I can't find one without rating. Ssscienccce (talk) 16:04, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. On recent films, the US rating is shown by IMDb, with a link that you can click to show the rating in various other countries. [5] There is generally a link to the IMDb page in the Wikipedia article, so the information is available with a couple of clicks. Alansplodge (talk) 17:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding payment of Naked and Afraid" contestants: according to this (and 2 interviews with the producer): "they receive an appearance fee and get their expenses paid". Ssscienccce (talk) 17:58, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

What font is used for the cover text of The Martian?

Cover visible here. I put this on the Miscellaneous desk because I didn't think fonts themselves were language per se. 20.137.7.64 (talk) 18:41, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

According to this site, USN Stencil. However, I'm not personally convinced - the example of the font on this page is rather different to that on the book cover, particularly in the capital D. Tevildo (talk) 23:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

That capital D is quite distinctive and unusual. I tried http://www.identifont.com on the lettering, but it never asked about the D and none of the fonts it suggested had that sort of D. I would suggest asking the publisher; it was their designer who had to choose the font. --65.95.178.150 (talk) 05:04, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Bear in mind that the designer might have either adapted or entirely self-designed/drawn (on-screen or paper) the lettering. I myself occasionally did this as a professional designer/editor back in the day. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 185.74.232.130 (talk) 12:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It's particularly common to use a stock font for most of the text, then to hand-tweak particular title letters for whatever special need. SteveBaker (talk) 15:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

September 15

Telegram invitation

Please write a telegram invitation link here, I wanna join a group.86.57.30.151 (talk) 14:54, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

You know, I was about to say that telegrams are almost extinct. But according to Telegraphy#Worldwide_status_of_telegram_services, they are still providing Telex service in Iran, through Telecommunication_Infrastructure_Company_of_I.R.Iran. Since your IP geolocates to Iran, you can probably contact the organization to learn how to send and receive telex messages. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

They are probably referring to Telegram (software) so the information they need could possibly be found at Telegram.org. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I think you're partially right, but I don't think the OP will find info at the website. It sounds like the OP probably wants an invitation to a Telegram group. I'm not sure what group, but I suspect you won't find invitations on the website. Even their blog seems to lack comments, so that probably won't help.

To the IP, I'm not sure what group you're looking for but you're at the wrong place. There are no Telegram groups for wikipedia in general, or the reference desk. Perhaps there are some groups on wikipedia who use Telegram, but it's definitely not something that is encouraged. Private invite only groups that coordinate stuff relating to wikipedia are controversial except in very select cases (like arbcom). If you were looking for some group unrelated to wikipedia, it's unlikely we can help you, you will need to find the website or something else suitable for whatever group you're looking for.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:21, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Prison Cell

Cell at Alcatraz

Is it possible to be happy in if one was locked in a 7ft by 12ft prison cell 23 hours a day? Can a prisoner locked in this cell be as happy as a millionaire in a mansion , if one was to put their mind to it? --Kåskkœk (talk) 18:55, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

If you don't like a question, please ignore it. Others may interpret this response as WP:BITEY and not very WP:CIVIL. Perhaps you are merely being brief and don't intend to be rude. If so, please provide references to one-word replies, that will help the reference desk run better, and make it clear that you are participating here in order to help, rather than participating here to pass judgment and snark. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

So why is being locked in a cell a punishment if one can be as happy as a millionaire? --Kåskkœk (talk) 19:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Happiness is an internal mental state. It is not possible to guarantee that every single person in response to any given situation would be happy or not. Thus, while some people would be happy under the situation you describe, others may not be. Bugs answers your question as completely and totally as could be answered, which is to say, when you ask if it is possible "to be happy", then as long as one person could experience that emotion in the situation you describe, it is completely sufficient to answer "yes". --Jayron32 19:47, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Penal system and incarceration have some relevant info. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:50, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Here's some interesting reading on the topic from scholarly journals [6] [7] [8] [9] [10]. All of these mention confinement to small cells, and some talk about differential effects of cell size, in addition to other treatments. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:49, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Do any of them say it's not possible to be happy? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:08, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

No, but they detail the many detrimental effects of long-term incarceration that occur. They do collectively assert that there are strong negative effects of incarceration and confinement to small spaces. You could find that out if you at least skimmed the links. But if you want to smugly play word games, that's fine too. Sure, it is conceivably possible to be happy in the situation the OP describes. But masses of research shows that tends to not be the case, not by a long shot. SemanticMantis (talk) 21:24, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

The OP asked if it was possible, not if it was likely. The answer remains "Yes". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Bugs is correct, "O God, I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams." I suggest also the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, the Discourses of Epictetus and the life of Diogenes of Sinope. μηδείς (talk) 22:22, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

If we're citing tangentially related literature, then I'll let Lebowski speak for me [11] :) SemanticMantis (talk) 23:40, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll assume since you smalled this you're being sarcastic, SM, but Marcus Aurelius and Epictetus can hardly be called "tangential" to the topic at hand. One was a slave, the other an emperor, both famed Stoics, and each agrees with Bugs. As for Shakespeare, you really won't find a more educated writer. He wasn't pulling that line out his bottom. μηδείς (talk) 01:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Maybe Epictetus could be happy in solitary confinement for 23 hours a day. The Hamlet quote is actually saying the opposite - he can't be happy as king of a nutshell. Anyway, I never said anyone was wrong, I just thought maybe OP would like some context and references, and I do think a one-word answer without context, refs, or explanation is unhelpful. Also, saying that something is possible because you can imagine it isn't very good evidence. It's possible that the pope will show up at your house tonight, along with George W. Bush and a bunch of cocaine and strippers, but I don't think that tells us much about what a pope is. I wonder if anyone can find any evidence of a prisoner being happy in solitary. The personal experience reported by the IP below is very interesting, but of course that's not WP:RS. SemanticMantis (talk) 14:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• Anchorite —Tamfang (talk) 03:44, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
• Viktor Frankl. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 04:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Happiness is relative. When I was in prison, I hated being around the other prisoners. I spent my time doing what I could to be put in solitary. When I was in solitary, I was very happy to be out of the main prison. I wanted to spend my entire seven years there, but state rules limit solitary to 30 days. So, every 30 days, I got kicked back to the block and I had to get in trouble again so I could get back to solitary. Of note, solitary is 8x8 feet. The block cells are 8x12 feet for 2-man cells and 8x16 for 4-man cells. So, in this case, solitary was smaller and better. 209.149.113.66 (talk) 13:49, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Prison is not meant to put you in a small cell. The small cell is only a means to suppress your freedom. Prison is about losing your freedom. You cannot go where you want when you want. You are obliged to stay here. The small cell is only the way to force you to stay here. Prison is meant to be a punishment. The small cell is only "the tool they use to fullfill the punishment contract they owe you", I would say. Akseli9 (talk) 17:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that prison is punishment, but many people disagree. They state that prison is for educating and training so the prisoners will be a supportive part of society when they exit prison. In that case, prison is not punishment. It is an education/training system. That is why prisoners are offered training and education at no cost (we called it an "east side" scholarship growing up because the east side of our town is where the projects were). Another point is that punishment is meant as a deterrent. Does anyone actually think, "I'd love to break that law, but I'm worried that I'll go do jail." If anything, I assume that the threat of anal sex is the only deterrent - not living in a small room and getting free food, free cable TV, free computers, free education, etc... 75.139.70.50 (talk) 21:58, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Classically, there are four reasons for imprisoning criminals:

1. As some kind of "revenge" - on behalf of the state and/or the victims.
2. As a way to reform the criminal - hoping that their time in jail improves them in some way.
3. As a way to physically prevent them from committing further crimes for the period of time that they are imprisoned.
4. As a deterrent for the criminal AND OTHERS to reduce the likelyhood of them committing crimes.

It not clear that all of those are worthy goals - and clearly they don't all work for all criminals. (1) seems to make the victims happier - so it has some value. (2) sometimes backfires because being in close proximity to a bunch of other criminals provides opportunity to come to believe that crime is OK - or to learn new techniques - but does sometimes help. (3) does work...and in the case of offenders under the age of 25, there is a strong argument that their still immature brains are less able to understand risk and consequences - and that keeping them from committing crimes until that part of the brain matures has a solid benefit. (4) works in some cases - but not in others. SteveBaker (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

School detentions in the UK.

I was given an after school detention for next week by a teacher. I go to a state school in the UK, can I refuse to go to a detention on legal grounds? Can I not say "Hey Teacher, legally speaking I am not obliged to go to this detention because you do not represent a public body of authority such as the police"? --Spoœekspaar (talk) 20:18, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but Wikipedia editors may not provide any legal advice in response to questions such as this. Edison (talk) 20:37, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)You could try saying that, but the resulting actions by the school might be worse than the detention. Your parents or guardians may have implicitly or explicitly agreed that you are subject to school discipline. Ask them what they think. They will be involved in subsequent discussions if you refuse to attend detention. The school has no legal duty to allow you to continue be educated there if you refuse to accept their discipline, but your local education authority has a duty to find you another school if you get expelled from your present school. Apologies for the "legal advice": you should consult a solicitor if you need to know the detail of the law. Dbfirs 20:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that school is not "a public body of authority "? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Law is Education and Inspections Act 2006 as per page 10 of this document.[12] Nanonic (talk) 21:09, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

And Section 92 deals with detentions: [13] MChesterMC (talk) 08:06, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Or you could just take what's coming to you, like a man. We have articles on Dignity, Courage and Honour, which are three qualities you appear to lack.--Ykraps (talk) 08:45, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• See In loco parentis, a concept well established in English common law. That means, by sending you to school, your parents grant the right of the school to treat you as one of their children; to take the role of the parent. Just as your parent has the absolutely legal right to institute reasonable (non-harmful/non-violent) punishments to train you to behave correctly, the school has the same right to do so. And since you're a legal minor, you are required to obey (lawful and reasonable) requests from both your parents, and the school acting in loco parentis. When you become of the age of majority, you're quite allowed to ruin your own life in any way you see fit. Until that age, the state, the schools and your arents will take actions to train you and stop you from doing so. --Jayron32 14:52, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Yeah - in loco parentis definitely applies here - the only issue is when your actual parents disagree with the school when it is acting in a parental role. So your parents might argue that you have something else that's more important to do when detention is happening...and they and the school would have to come to some arrangement. But I agree with Ykraps...take the detention...it's done for a reason. If you get the idea into your head that you can ignore the rules, blow off the punishment and waltz away without consequences, you're going to become an exceedingly nasty person. Nobody wants that. SteveBaker (talk) 15:39, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Bobby Sands breakfast

Has anybody heard of the term "Bobby Sands breakfast"? The only Bobby Sands I have heard of, and the only one on Wikipedia, is the one that died while on a hunger strike. While I assume the meaning is that the person had nothing to eat I have never heard the term before. I tried looking for it but all I really found was the fast food place in Iran. I rather not hear anything about the rights and wrongs of either side in this. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 22:08, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Where did you hear or see the expression, CBW? Sounds like a Duke Humphrey picnic. Deor (talk) 22:19, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Where else but on that most impeccable of sources, Facebook. I think the full line was "We had a real Bobby Sands breakfast." And then probably something about golf. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 00:30, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Substituting "breakfast" with "meal" or "lunch" or "supper" gives (very few) examples, with the same meaning you suggested, but these aren't from published media outlets either. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:27, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

So it sounds like it may be used in some context but not really by any reputable source. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 17:55, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Maybe something like it can be found in a movie or book dialogue (in order to have inappropriate humor coming out of the mouth of characters rather than being the writer's own voice), or in a standup comedian's routine? I did find a football chant apparently sung by fans of Celtic F.C. adversaries at the time going "Could you go a chicken supper, Bobby Sands?/Could you go a chicken supper, Bobby Sands?/Could you go a chicken supper, you dirty Fenian fucker/Could you go a chicken supper Bobby Sands." (sung to the tune of "She'll Be Coming 'Round the Mountain"), see this article by Alex Massie, for example. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

September 16

What was the occupation of "timer" circa 1902?

My local newspaper, the Canton Repository, is running a series of front pages of the last 200 years for each day, to commemorate the paper's 200th anniversary. The Sept. 4 one was a front page from 1902 speaking of various Labor Day activities and other things involving work; a good taste of Labor Day in Canton back then.

One headline intrigued me; it mentioned timers seeking more pay and that those in Massillon and Alliance made a couple cents more an hour. I've tried to search on Google, but while it could be buried deep, I can't seem to find anything when I ask what the occupation of "timer" is. I'm guessing it has to do with train switches and determining how on schedule they are, things which would be all automated now (and not as common anyway with much less train travel than back then) but i really have little clue.

So, I turn to the fine people here - does anyone here know what the occupation of Timer was? Thanks.Somebody or his brother (talk) 21:47, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I wish people didn't ask these sort of questions as it makes me feel so old... This was about TINNERS not timers. A person who works with tin or tin plate. Don't appologies, I have the sanne same problem with printed letters.--Aspro (talk) 22:23, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Also, Wikipedia has a disambiguation page on tinners, there are two such jobs; one was a tin smith the other was someone involved in tin mining. Also relevant to this question is the concept of kerning, look up "kerning goofs" on Google. You'll see lots of fun examples (words like "click" look like "dick" and things like that). --Jayron32 23:35, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

September 17

Standing transportation

Recent studies show that sitting is unhealthy, while standing is better. Unfortunately, it is rare, in any form of transportation, where you can stand. There's the Segway scooter and other scooters, but you can't go very far in those. You can stand on a subway, bus, or train, although people might look at you like you were insane if there are seats available. Standing on a plane is definitely out, as those narrow aisles mean that one person standing up blocks all passage up and down that aisle. What I'm most interested in is cars and trucks (particularly for long haul truckers). Is there any design that will allow them to stand while driving, or even as a passenger ? Seat belts seem to require that you be seated, but I imagine they could be redesigned. Commercial truck cabs seem to be tall enough that a person could stand up in them without raising the roof (you might need to lower the floor, though). Similarly, is there any motor vehicle where you can lie down safely while somebody else drives ? (The driver lying down would be bad, as it would tend to promote sleep.) Obviously if you are in an RV you can lie down, but without the equivalent of a seat belt, this is dangerous, while the vehicles is in motion. StuRat (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

On many transit systems, such as the New York City Subway, and the Tokyo Metro, standing is normal. At many times of the day, far more people stand than sit. These trains often have straps, poles, and handles for people to hold on when standing, for safety. Many buses do as well. See here for an example. --Jayron32 16:18, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding lying down, many trains have Sleeping cars, or they used to, when people actually rode trains long distance. --Jayron32 16:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

it is rare, in any form of transportation, where you can stand – Commuters of public bus, commuter rail, or subways (basically, anyone in an urban area or within walking distance of a transit system) get ample opportunities to stand.

Also, you can lie down in the backseat of most cars. Epic Genius (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, there's nothing inherently unhealthy about sitting per se. Sitting#Health_risks - it's sitting for "prolonged periods" without alternating with standing/walking/laying down/doing things that has risks. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:51, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I can't find any kind of passenger cars or trucks that allow for standing drivers, and that is and interesting notion to think about for long-haul truckers. Here's [14] a journal article documenting the health risks of sitting while commuting by motor vehicle, and it they come to some fairly negative conclusions.

But many people ride a bicycle to get around, with a functional maximum of around 10 miles each way to work and back [15]. That way not only are you not "sitting", you're also getting exercise. In England and Wales, the average distance to work is 15.0 km, and much more of them could be cycling more often [16]. In the USA, as of 2003 [17], over 50% of people traveled <10 miles to work, and they could often be cycling too. SemanticMantis (talk) 16:51, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Standing while driving a vehicle strikes me as being unsafe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:04, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

A military Humvee (not the commercial Hummer) was designed for operation while standing. With a fording adapter, you could drive it completely submerged in water (except for the top of the adapter, of course). That meant that you could get down to where you had to stand up or you'd be well underwater. The standing throttle is a bar on the wheel, similar to where most cars have windshield wiper sticks. I never drove one underwater, but my Humvee had a fording adapter, so I technically could have if I really wanted to clean out all the gunk when I was done. 209.149.113.66 (talk) 19:45, 17 September 2015 (UTC)