User talk:Jimbo Wales

Bug reported in 2007, still no action

https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T11790

Given the huge surpluses that the WMF runs every year, could we please hire some developers and give them the task of fixing bugs before they celebrate their 7th birthday? I don't want to be buying these bugs drinks when they turn 21... --Guy Macon (talk) 13:39, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Well in pure numbers there are plenty of developers. What they have lacked until recently is competent leadership, direction, quality control and oversight. No comment on the current situation as its a work in progress with the current jetpacking of certain upper level staff who have contributed to the previous problems. Personally I'm going to give it another 3-6 months before I start sharpening the pitchfork again... Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:51, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

There are still some developers who "know" what the user community needs better than the user community itself. I have no idea how the dev portion of the WMF is structured so that these developers can be held accountable for their decisions. Other bugs (example from 2006) seem to suffer from cowboy coding. Again, lack of accountability seems to be an issue. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 13:50, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

As the Visual Editor fiasco showed, there have definitely been serious problems in the development process. But there is also another kind of problem: the developers don't have any good structured way of getting input about which bugs are important to the broad editor community. Unfortunately the fact that one or two editors pester them about a bug doesn't automatically mean that it is important to large numbers of people. In this case I agree that the problem is important, but I don't think that message has gotten across. In fact I doubt that the developers are fully convinced that this is really a bug at all. (In "dev-speak" this is really more of an "enhancement request" than a "bug report".) Looie496 (talk) 14:16, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Looie496, I don't think getting structured input is the problem. Have a look at this and (especially) the talk page. The WMF (poorly) designed a survey, solicited input for it, and then...? This reinforces my belief that the WMF is more interested in gathering (fairly useless) stats and happily chirping out "we need more feedback!" for a couple years rather than execution. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 14:34, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

At least they could have warned users, on the preference list, that enabling "Hide bot edits from the watchlist" would have this effect. I have had this in place for years, but just noticed now. Yeah, I had noted that others in my "area" (Israel/Palestine) fixed vandalism which I had not noticed; I thought that was just because of me having too many articles to watch. Now I understand that I never saw it, as typically the vandal made a "wrong" edit which was fixed by a bot. This bug must be the dream for any vandal! Huldra (talk) 17:10, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Online

Hey Jimbo, would it be possible to make wikipedia show when a user is online or not? — Preceding unsigned comment added by I am. furhan. (talk • contribs) 01:40, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

You can do something sort of like that by going to their user page and hitting "contributions" on the sidebar, getting a link like Special:Contributions/Wnt. I think it is possible to write up some custom Javascript for your account to see the time since last contribution for a user in some easier way (it can't be done with Scribunto). What you can't do is see whether the user has closed all their windows since making the last edit - that kind of Javascript-dependent "social reading" provides companies with potentially useful marketing/surveillance data, but for Wikipedia it would only be wasted bandwidth for the "I'm still here" or "I went away" signals, and at a very major cost in editors' privacy. Wnt (talk) 13:26, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Increase in the number of Wikipedia articles with GA rating and above

The results in the following table were calculated using data from pages in the history of User:WP 1.0 bot/Tables/OverallArticles.

Average increase per day of
number of articles with Good Article rating and above

year	2010	2011	2012	2013	2014	2015
ave increase per day	10.2	11.6	10.2	10.6	8.9	8.7

--Bob K31416 (talk) 18:37, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

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What should I do if an administrator scares and intimidates me?

Any ideas? I am trying a RFC of an article but he may see this as a flimsy reason to punish me. Wikipedia is not very fun. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 23:41, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I see that this user has only been editing for a month. This appears to me to be a perfect example of a situation where mentoring would be useful, with somewhat more verbose explanations to the user about good editing. I do agree that Drmies comment on her talk page was rather harsh bordering on intimidation. This is also a good example of seeing someone who starts out with some apparent enthusiasm about editing here and getting lost in the labyrinthine maze of policy and style guidelines and then becoming more frustrated to the point of eventually quitting. If I did not have a 35+ year background in computer science, and the related self-learning/research skill set acquired along the way, I don't think I would have survived here myself. Nyth63 00:43, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

• User:Nyth83, perhaps you are interested in the opinion of other editors, such as Versus001, Pincrete, Mathglot, some of whom have been dealing with this user's difficult editing behavior and refusal to listen for weeks now. There is no "maze of policy" here--there's clear obstruction and editing with an agenda. The editor has an undue interest, for instance, in the alleged (alleged! and then refuted) behavior of some of the train crew during the attack, which is seriously bothersome. And if you look at Talk:2015 Thalys train attack (I'm not sure that you did), which is over 200k, you will see that there was plenty of mentoring offered there--to no avail. Or you could look at the current ANI thread. But thank you for offering your opinion. Drmies (talk) 01:05, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Hi, Sandra. I'm sorry that you feel scared and aren't having fun. No one wants that. When you are having a conflict with someone it is often helpful to talk about it informally with other people. Doing so may help to clarify any underlying confusion or misconceptions, and give one the confidence to figure out how to approach further dispute resolution, if necessary. Often one can use article discussion pages to discuss issues. Or if you have met others that you feel more comfortable with, maybe talk to one of them on their user talk page. If you are new, the help desk may be more useful for basic inquiries. Lastly, let me suggest that the teahouse is often a good place to find friendly third parties. So, perhaps the best option might be go have a metaphorical cup of tea, talk about what is causing your anxiety, and maybe people will be able suggest a productive way forward. Hope that helps, at least a little. Dragons flight (talk) 00:59, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

After reviewing this user's history here a little more, I may have to reconsider my assertion that mentoring would be useful. Nyth63 01:04, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra is nothing if not tenacious in editing. I think she could become a good editor if she could just somehow empathize and listen to other editors' differing points of view (like we all have to) without assuming there's a gang of thieves arrayed against her with some hidden (or manifest) and nefarious agenda. I'm not familiar with mentoring (in WP context) and while I think I'm too involved to be one for her, I'd support lots of WP:3O for her in the right venue, and mentoring, too, if that makes sense. I will just add that I'm a little intimidated being here on Jimbo's page (first time for me) and wondering if it's appropriate to even be here on a topic so unrelated to him. If there's a more appropriate place to hold this discussion, and if Sandra or anyone wishes my input on the topic, I'd be glad to join in. Mathglot (talk) 02:16, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I concur. I too think the environment would be less tense if she changed her attitude and became more civil and understanding of the discussions (as well as more aware of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines). Unfortunately, things have escalated to a point where I cannot be a mentor for her due to our strained online relationship, so you will have to vote me out as a candidate for that slot. Versus001 (talk) 04:36, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Of course Versus (I concur) concurs with Mathglot. Both of them are ganging up on me. My ideas, particularly the very recent ones are very sound ideas and good writing. Sandra opposed to terrorism (talk) 14:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Sandra, nobody but you thinks these are 'good ideas', not the other editors, not the admin that became involved (Drmies), and often neither the facts nor explicit policies. Neither do you make any serious attempt to persuade others as to why you think these are good ideas. You are very mindful of a sense of 'victimhood', less mindful of how much of the time and goodwill of others you have chosen to waste. Pincrete (talk) 16:47, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

No, they are NOT, Sandra. And this is not ganging up. None of this would be happening if you at least were more aware of Wikipedia's policies, were more respectful and mindful of the happenings in the article, and most of all, had LISTENED to what everyone else was saying in the matter, both in support and disapproval of your ideas. Versus001 (talk) 17:53, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Google's ownership of online knowledge

Do you have any thoughts on it in relation to Wikimedia? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:14, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

How to get,um, past-their-peak editors to retire gracefully, as opposed to by sanctions

Any ideas out there? John Carter (talk) 14:58, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Whar on earth are you asking about? What does past-their-peak mean? Nyth63 16:00, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I saw it as a more polite way to refer to editors who may be experience some form of progressive loss of competence, most often through some form of dementia or, maybe, development of some perhaps symptomatic behavior since first becoming editors. We will be experiencing a lot of editors who are retirees who may find their capacity diminishing progressively over the years, and some whose editing may be negatively affected by traumatic experiences or other problems after becoming editors. John Carter (talk) 16:07, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

You must be kidding.--MONGO 16:14, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Back to the day room, Mongo. Nurse will be along shortly. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I wish I didn't know of at least a few cases where I saw this situation to possibly have arisen alreaady. Obviously, I do not include all older people (I'm in my 50s) but it would be nice if we could develop a way to get individuals whose behavior is becoming disruptive when earlier it wasn't to stop editing or reduce editing with honor, as opposed to with some sort of sanctions. John Carter (talk) 16:25, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Based on what I see on the internet in an average day, I have no idea how we would distinguish between a typical netizen and a retiree with dementia. Gamaliel (talk) 16:26, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel:, it's probably safe to say that anyone that has been on this website as long as either of us is likely nuts.--MONGO 17:09, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

@MONGO: I am of course offended that you didn't even mention me in the above. I think I've more than earned consideration as an alternatively-rational person myself. So, not for the moment dealing with the matter of more or less functional disabilities, like some of the less disabling autism spectrum disorders, in those instances when there has been what might be seen as a clear decline in the level of competency of an editor, can anyone think of any way to persuade them to retire with grace and, to an extent, their reputation intact, rather than having them forced to retire through blocks or bans? John Carter (talk) 17:27, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

You want to take away the keys to the car without anyone noticing you have taken the keys. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:53, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I want to know if there is a way to allow editors who may well have been very good and productive editors earlier to, basically, have the car keys taken from them without having it visible to everybody,like through a block or ban message on their user talk page, that the car keys were taken from them. So, more or less, yeah. John Carter (talk) 18:57, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Do you see this as a significant problem? Your suggestion rather seems to me to be an attempt to legitimise the removal of unpopular editors "for their own good". Eric Corbett 19:06, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Define "significant". Like I said, I know of one or two editors whom I think were forcibly retired by blocks or bans, and, well, with the greying of the population, particularly in the west, the number of editors who lose the required mental elasticity, which is supposed to happen around 55 in some cases (putting it 3 years off for me), is probably going to increase. To what degree, obviously, we can't know, but I would prefer, if possible, to have some sort of unofficial procedure of urging the few editors who seem to become pretty much inherently problematic over the years to retire with grace than to leave a block or ban notice on their user talk page as their most visible and immediately obvious legacy. And, yeah, in some cases, it might even be only temporary. I don't know how many veterans might return from active service with some serious PTSD which might really impact them negatively in the short term, and, maybe, their having a block or ban notice here make it harder for them to find work. I have no idea how often that sort of thing might happen, of course. John Carter (talk) 19:15, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

But there you put your finger on the nub of the problem, which is that the vast majority of editors are pseudonymous, so you can't possibly know or infer anything about their mental state, their age, or the effect of a block/ban. And dementia can set in well before the age of 55; I've seen people in their 40s completely incapacitated by it. Eric Corbett 19:20, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but with some of our more prominent named editors, the age and mental state can be all too obvious. .micro.dot.cotton (talk) 19:41, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Eric that age alone predicts little. I have long had a habit of striking up conversations with World War II veterans when I meet them. There are many people in their 80s and 90s who are perfectly capable of contributing to this encyclopedia if so inclined. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 19:36, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I think it worth noting that I indicated at least one other non-age-related factor specifically, war-related PTSD, and thought I had made a comment to the effect that age isn't the only factor in dementia, although I evidently edited it out before posting. And, obviously, age-related dementia doesn't happen to all people, but, unfortunately, most of the people it does happen to don't recognize it quickly or easily. And, clearly, it would probably be easiest and most effective if someone they had interacted with here told them privately to maybe start doing other things, but in some less active fields I'm not sure how many people that would include. John Carter (talk) 19:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Retiring with grace before ending up alienating the community is not something we can enforce from the outside. This is something only the person involved can decide. HighInBC ^{(was Chillum)} 19:08, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I think this is premature -- I'm sure Jimbo has many good years left in him before we have to worry about this. NE Ent 19:12, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Given the comparatively tender years of so many Wikipedia editors, I think that it would make a lot of sense to encourage retirees to edit. We can use more people with life experience. But I agree that, yes, at times one finds editors with mental disorders. I know one who quite proudly discloses his alleged neurological handicap, using that to curry favor with administrators and excuse his misconduct. It's quite an effective strategy. Coretheapple (talk) 19:54, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I think on the whole the project has many more problems caused by ideological warriors who from Day 1 have been here to revise articles to support their viewpoint. I think developing some way to identify such editors and show them the door more quickly would have a greater net benefit. --71.119.131.184 (talk) 20:29, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I agree that POV warriors are a far, far worse problem than mentally deficient or senile editors, but much harder to identify and deal with. Also, once you remove one set of POV warriors they will be replaced by others, if it is a cause with many adherents. Coretheapple (talk) 20:59, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

And, simply speaking from the one report I remember having heard years ago about how males who have not exercised their mind in a lot of ways become less open to new ideas at or around 55, as I indicated somewhere else before, the point of intersection of POV pushing and perhaps reduced mental function might be more prominent in people who may perceive some internal problems, but not necessarily recognize them for what they are. Also, honestly, even though a lot of people in the West are getting to live longer and be more productive for longer, they will also be, naturally, among those most interested in some fields of the social sciences relating to philosophical cosmology. Bluntly, they'll be a lot more interested in the "purpose of life" and what, if any, reward there might be thereafter. This will be particularly true for those seeking to curry favor for their actions from God or whatever, or, alternately, to oppose a certain view of the afterlife if they believe their own actions in life aren't likely to get the kind of results they would hope for. Those, like I said generally male, people will probably be among the most adamant editors on those topics, and might have some of the best sourcing imaginable, having checked everything under the sun they can find to support their position, but still, ultimately, be POV pushers. And depending on their level of dedication, they might be the hardest to find out and among those whose POV pushing is among the hardest things to convince editors without much knowledge of the subject about. Someone who sees their life or soul on the line, unfortunately, in a certain matter is going to fight till the end, and probably devote a lot more time to the topic as well. John Carter (talk) 21:13, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I find that to be the most astonishing extrapolation from a pretty dodgy paper you once read that you can't now remember. Let me remind you that many people have no belief or interest in God. Does that make them demented in your eyes? Eric Corbett 21:26, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you read it all. Also, without meaning any disrespect to you, I think I may have encountered more arguments around here about things related to the afterlife and what, if anything, it is, and what might and might not qualify someone for the better or worse aspects, than a lot of others. The second group of people seeking to improve their lot in heaven, or, perhaps, deny that there is a heaven or hell that they might not like, have been rather numerous over the years from what I've seen. The intersection of that group, with the less transigent older editors who, in some cases, may or may not feel the need to either polish up their souls or deny their existence of something along those lines, or affirm or deny beliefs which they have held which might not be as popular, isn't really well studied, admittedly, but from doing up a bit of reading on new religious movements over the years they seem to be a loud and very vocal group in discussions on that topic from all sides. John Carter (talk) 21:37, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Your argument seems to be disintegrating. Are you simply talking about yourself? Eric Corbett 21:46, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Jimmy, nice pictures of you with Ahmed Mohamed

Jimmy, nice pictures of you with Ahmed Mohamed at Brunch and Clock Boy Ahmed Mohamed !

Any chance you'd know who the photographer was and if we could get those licensed by a free-use license?

Thank you,

— Cirt (talk) 16:51, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

And did you, perhaps, ask him how he feels about the coverage of the incident on Wikipedia? Etamni | ✉ | ✓  20:03, 26 September 2015 (UTC)