Wikipedia:Move review/Log/2016 June

2016 June

Catholic Church in Afghanistan

Catholic Church in Afghanistan (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

I believe the page move from "Roman Catholicism in Afghanistan" to "Catholic Church in Afghanistan" was premature, and I wish to restore the original name (no reply was made on closer's talk page discussing this move). There was no strong consensus for the move, and the arguments cited a non-binding precedent, that of the "Roman Catholic Church" to "Catholic Church", as well as an incorrect argument that "Catholic Church in Afghanistan" is more "appropriate". For reasons elaborated on in this essay: WP:Roman Catholic, "Roman Catholic" is an appropriate contemporary name for the church in union with the pope, and may be freely used when there is ambiguity. Several similar name changes were recently opposed by consensus, thus showing that there is no consensus currently for all Catholic related articles to strictly avoid "Roman" in the title.

While there are likely some cases where this change would be appropriate, in the Afghanistan article, it is disruptive, and introduces more ambiguity and inconsistency than the proposal corrected. The parent article for the series, Religion in Afghanistan uses the "Roman Catholic" convention, as do several templates and other Afghan religion articles. The history section for Catholic Church in Afghanistan also discussed the "Nestorian" church (AKA the Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East), which is unaffiliated with the Roman Catholic Church, and the article rename adds ambiguity that is difficult to correct without the "Roman" modifier in the title.

The name change introduces in consistency and ambiguity in the series, that could either be corrected by carefully editing each linked page, or by simply reverting the name change. Thank you. --Zfish118^⋉talk 06:09, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

• Comment from closer – I think there is sufficient consensus in the RM discussion for a move. This MRV is started by the lone oppose voter in that discussion. SSTflyer 14:19, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse. This was a reasonable close per WP:RMCI. There was only one opposing response compared to three who supported the change, and I'd regard their arguments as stronger.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:19, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

New York (state)

New York (state) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)

The move was closed with no visible weighing of the reasoning behind either supporting or opposing. There was (as I see it) no consensus, and the closer agreed. Then the closer changed her mind, picked a destination, and moved the page. There may well be better arguments for supporting the move than opposing it--but A) that's hardly clear from the discussion, and B) the closer did not seem to point out any of those arguments for the move. There was plenty--plenty--of room for more discussion. With no disrespect at all for the closer, I still propose a relisting. Red Slash 02:45, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

• As I said at the beginning of the discussion, I considered three different possible closures. I think the choice between these three closures is within the discretion of the closer. Any of the three closures would cause some editors to be unhappy. SSTflyer 02:52, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Um, if it was at the discretion of the closer or any other one person, there would have been no point in having a discussion. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 02:59, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I mean, given the arguments made in the discussion, any of the three options would be a reasonable closure. SSTflyer 07:46, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, but I think that no consensus and a relisting would have been the best option, otherwise there would be a lot of pushback. Kylo, Rey, & Finn Consortium (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

• Relist' at the very least for fairness. Plenty of people have gotten to the discussion after it closed and it wasn't properly advertised to those from the New York area. Yeah, "descetion" is a terrible way to close a discussion, a closer should be weighing consensus, or in this case, a lack of one, not making up scenarios and choosing one of them. I also think an overturn to no consensus would be fair as that's really what the result should have been. -- Tavix ^(talk) 04:20, 21 June 2016 (UTC) edited: 15:21, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Comment: We need to be careful not to canvas any particular group, in my opinion. There seems a distinct possibility that there's a dialect or dialect-like problem here... that whether you think first of NYC or of the US State when you hear New York out of context is influenced by where you live (something like this). Not sure how to best address that, but I preach caution. Disclosure: I have been heavily involved in the RM. Andrewa (talk) 06:25, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
    • But at least someone could have notified the two relevant wikiprojects, WP:NY and WP:NYC, and in the former, the article is rated as "top"-importance. I see notifications on neither. And as a member of both wikiprojects and a resident of NY State, I feel insulted that I wasn't given enough time to be able to !vote, and the fact that none of the WikiProject members were notified by a post on the wikiproject discussion board. Kylo, Rey, & Finn Consortium (talk) 15:17, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
      • I think that insulted feeling is unreasonable and unproductive. Strongly recommend that you all add Wikipedia:WikiProject New York/Article alerts to your watchlists, and that you edit Wikipedia:WikiProject New York to give Wikipedia:WikiProject New York#Other tools a bit more prominence. Maybe even expand the section to give some hints on how to use them. Andrewa (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
        • I agree with Andrewa. There is no reason to be insulted. I support relisting the requested move. ✉cookiemonster✉ ^𝚨755𝛀 22:08, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
          • Seeing as nobody even reached out to the Wikiprojects for this discussion, I'll do that now. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 20:57, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
• Overturn (no consensus). A stronger consensus is needed to change away from a long-standing name. PaleAqua (talk) 06:09, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse. The second close analysis was most impressive, and the verdict followed logically. Disclosure: It's also exactly what I was arguing for, at some length, in the RM. Andrewa (talk) 06:44, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. I think it was the correct decision and that if we re-open it for another week or so we will have the same outcome. The arguments that the state is not the primary topic for the term "New York" were significantly stronger than those in opposition. However, the closure was not particularly well articulated for a discussion of this significance – you have to know that people are going to try and pick holes in what you write when closing a RM like this. I don't think there is any problem with relisting, but I am bit sceptical of some of the comments here and on the talk page about a lack of notification – if you care about a page put on it on your watchlist and if you care about a certain WikiProject (in this case New York) watch that project's Article Alerts where this was advertised all week. In sum, either endorse or relist would be fine by me. Jenks24 (talk) 08:00, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm a member of WikiProject New York. I didn't get an article alert, though. Something is very weird here. Kylo, Rey, & Finn Consortium (talk) 15:22, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
    • It was listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject New York/Article alerts (and is still listed there now). That's also transcluded at Wikipedia:WikiProject New York. Jenks24 (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
      • I see, thanks. I didn't know that article alerts were transcluded on the project pages themselves. I just thought they were supposed to pop up on one's watchlist or something. Kylo, Rey, & Finn Consortium (talk) 17:13, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
        • If you watchlist Wikipedia:WikiProject New York/Article alerts it will appear on your watchlist. Jenks24 (talk) 17:18, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
• Relist. The discussion was only closed hastily as it was going nowhere, i.e. no consensus was formed. That's the only reason a move discussion should be prematurely closed. There was no "rough consensus" towards moving, as some would claim. Even if my opinion on this issue may now be more towards the disambig, a full discussion and proper close needs to take place. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 14:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Also changing to Overturn. This hasn't gotten anywhere in almost a decade, nor will it. Hatnotes suffice. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 20:52, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

• • I'm confused by this. You say it was closed hastily because there was no consensus, but then say that's the only reason a RM should be closed prematurely? Regardless, it was closed after the allotted time was up, even if it may have been wise to give it a little longer if only to stifle some of the complaints that are inevitable with a change like this. There was certainly no malicious or duplicitous intent on the part of the closer. Jenks24 (talk) 15:48, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes you're right, however it was finally closed with a supposed "rough consensus" to change the title, even though the discussion was still ongoing and small enough to warrant more time. So only if the discussion was going nowhere and a no consensus close was the final result would it be justified this early. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 16:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

• Relist. There is no consensus for this move, especially given the short duration of the move discussion and the controversy under which it fell. It should be relisted for more comments, especially since the community is changing a name that has stood for at least a decade. Kylo, Rey, & Finn Consortium (talk) 15:15, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - I'm going to put a more thorough and detailed response here in due course, which will likely be along the same lines as Jenks24, that the closure does represent the policy based consensus of the discussion, and that while a relisting would be unlikely to add much more that hasn't already been said, it could provide more closure for people. In the mean time, I should remind people that move discussions, as with other consensus building processes on WP, is not a vote, and the fact that the supports and opposes are split does not mean there is no consensus. If 5 people make reasoned supports, while 5 others post opposes that make no sense, as objectively assessed by a closer, then the supports have the consensus. People should keep that in mind when assessing whether to endorse or overturn this close. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:16, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
• Endorse: the conclusion reached by the closer was logical and based upon analysis of the strengths and weakness of the arguments made on both sides. The debate clearly demonstrated that there was no consensus on what the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of 'New York' should be and it therefore logically follows that the page should be a DAB page given the high profile nature of both the State and the City (as well as other less high profile topics). The decision to apply for a move review is clearly demonstrated by those who misunderstand how consensus works: disagreement does not always mean sticking with the status quo. This is particularly true in in primary topic discussions when a move results in the disputed term being a DAB page which is a neutral position. Ebonelm (talk) 19:09, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

No, the move needs to be based on a consensus to move, not based on a consensus that there is no consensus. Also, no consensus, by policy would result in the original name being returned: Link 1, Link 2. I don't know what you're talking about disagreement leading to a so-called neutral position. That's no neutral position, it's what a minority of editors agreed upon and implemented. This is ridiculous. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 19:27, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

There is such a thing as negative consensus as well as positive consensus. Just because you didn't like the move doesn't mean you didn't actually contribute to the establishment of the idea that there was a good reason to change the title. You yourself just stated that there was a "consensus that there is no consensus" on what the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should be, which demonstrates why New York should be a DAB page. This has been a long term dispute (although the title itself has remained stable) about what the primary topic is. WP:TITLECHANGES states that "consensus among editors determines if there does exist a good reason to change the title" this has clearly been demonstrated. As for claiming it was a minority of editors WP:DEMOCRACY clearly demonstrates why just counting participants isn't a valid approach. Ebonelm (talk) 19:58, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

No, there was no consensus to move the page, it's as simple as that. I also stated above that I'm perhaps more in favor of the disambig, so consider my relist vote not based on my initial vote but on doing things the right way here. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 20:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Closer assessed that there was consensus that New York State is not the primary meaning of New York. Given that, a move was the only valid close. Relisting may change this; I'm skeptical, I think positions are now pretty strongly held and that policy and evidence support this (rough) consensus, but I could be wrong. Andrewa (talk) 20:52, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

The closer assessed wrongly, that's why this MR was made. There was no consensus. ɱ (talk) · vbm · coi) 21:05, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

By my reading of the rationale above, the MR was raised to recommend a reopen and relist, in the hope of a clearer result. Andrewa (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

• Overturn (to no consensus).

Firstly, the discussion reads as no consensus. There is a clear absence of consensus support for the status quo, but no case that the status quo is "wrong", and so no imperative to impose a creative solution so as to move on.

Secondly, the close was terrible. Smacking of WP:Supervote, as well as explicit indecisiveness, it conveys an arbitrariness of the result and seriously undermines confidence in the RM process. Another closer could have very easily come to a different result.

Aside, I have a rising concern that the holders of the newly created pagemover permission now no longer feel constrained by the sensible advice of WP:NAC, and are over-easily straying into controversial closes beyond their experience level. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:40, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

• Please OVERTURN. There is no consensus for this move, which is disastrous to say the least. The status quo with its appropriate hatnotes has served wonderfully for many years. Why the rush to move this page all of a sudden, especially with NO consensus to do so? What bothers me even further is the sneaky and subterfugal manner in which this was done. I, one of the primary editors of this page (never mind where I am actually based), was not even informed about this intention or discussion on my talk page; I found out only after the page had been moved. Clearly this was executed with an agenda, and this is alarming. This move was wrong on many levels and needs to be overturned ASAP. The page should be returned to the title "New York", as has been served well as such for many years. Castncoot (talk) 14:43, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully, there is no requirement to notify individual editors on their talk pages when a move request is proposed. It's great that you've contributed heavily to this article, on an important topic, so kudos for your efforts, but per WP:OWN, that fact doesn't mean you have a special veto or more right to contribute than anyone else. The move request took place right there on the talk page of the article, so it was hardly "sneaky and subterfugal". Anyway, maybe this will get an extra week or two of listing, and you can put your views at the RM, but if you really think that New York state is a primary topic over New York city, then you'll need to come up with some solid reasons why, or other policy reasons for the status quo. Because "it's always been like this" and "the move is disastrous" don't really stack up as valid reasons I'm afraid, and oppose votes along those lines can't override the existing policy and evidence based consensus as it was closed at the RM. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully in return, how many people actually look at a Talk page routinely? I, like others, have been busy in real life! Does this mean that I wouldn't have a significant contribution to a discussion about a proposed move? For this to have been carried out over a day or so certainly was sneaky and subterfugal - I'm telling it like it is! At minimum, this process should have taken place over a couple of weeks before moving it. As far as substance, to relegate the highly Wiki-searched entry "New York" to a disambiguation page defies all common sense. Appropriate hatnotes have served very well over the years. "New York City" has its own page, as it should. "New York" has served perfectly well as the state benchmark for years. The article ledes have also accounted for this disambiguation process very well throughout the years. Why should there be a comparison between the two in the first place? The move should be overturned and reopened for a discussion in which many more people are even aware of this discussion. Castncoot (talk) 15:52, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Your arguments would have more credence if they were accurate. The discussion was opened on 9 June and closed on 18 June. The move was then made on 20 June. This is hardly "a day or so". Jenks24 (talk) 16:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, unfortunately, nobody gave me the common decency and courtesy of informing me of this discussion, despite my being one of the top editors of this page. Is there a rule that they have to? Of course not. But is that how we really want Wikipedia to operate? Or do we want to get the best possible result, which includes input from both people who have high topic experience as well as from random editors? In my experience, I have routinely been informed on my own Talk page that a significant such discussion is taking place regarding some other page. Therefore, I've been unsuspecting of this situation until after the move was executed. In any case, a very serious mistake has been made with this move, and I believe it needs to be corrected as soon as possible rather than moving in bad faith to etch it in stone. Best, Castncoot (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

• Relist. I agree that there is no consensus here, and would support a relisting. FWIW I opposed the request, and I definitely disagree with the fact that the move was carried out even after opposition was raised and the closer consented to a relist. Nohomersryan (talk) 18:43, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Eh, changing to overturn. After thinking about it I think another week would just lead to more of the same = no consensus. Nohomersryan (talk) 16:20, 23 June 2016 (UTC)
• Overturn to "no consensus." At best, the closer took a simple head count to weigh consensus; at worst, they made a supervote. In either case, i don't believe there was any consensus to move the page. The primary topic argument made by those favoring the request was done so with anecdotal evidence only --no empirical evidence was presented -- and our definition of primary topic is not what first comes to mind. The closer also seemed to ignore the WP:IAR/WP:NOTBROKE arguments made in opposition to the move, assigning them no weight despite the fact that the former is a policy.Calidum ¤ 20:31, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

  A simple head count is exactly the opposite of what the closer did. If you just add up votes, it does look like no consensus. But WP:RMCI calls on closers to be much more discerning than that, pick out the policy arguments from the discussion, and give those more weight than WP:IDONTLIKEIT votes. It's telling that not one person seeking to overturn this move has made any sort of argument that New York state is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC over New York city (or if they have, I've missed it, and would appaeciate hearing about it). The support argument was considerably stronger than the oppose argument when cross checking it against policy. And your citation of WP:IAR misrepresents that pillar. If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it is what it says. Keeping New York state at a title which is not supported by our policies, just because we've always done it that way, is rather the opposite of improving or maintaining the encyclopedia.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:54, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

That's a gross misrepresentation of what the prevailing argument in opposition to the move was. The reason why people such as I opposed was that using a prominent hatnote at the state's article meant people had no problem quickly finding the NYC article even if they had searched simply for "New York." Thus, placing the dab page at the base name is not an improvement to the encyclopedia because it doesn't make it easier to find the city article while harder to find the state. Calidum ¤ 17:21, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

But that is in itself a misrepresentation of what WP:TWODABS says. Where neither topic is primary we don't arbitrarily pick one, just to reduce clicks on that but not the other. We use a dab page. If reducing average clicks was our only goal, we would never have no-primary-topic dabs for any subject, we'd always pick one page to be primary. But WP has never worked that way. Note as well that since the move, when you type "New York" in the search box, two very clear options come up on the search box, "New York (state)" and "New York City". This is much clearer than the previous state where "New York" and "New York City" would have come up.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:58, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

• Overturn as "No consensus". I agree with Caldium. The admin seems to have made a "supervote" I've seen these types of "decisions" play out in the past. Admins come and make up their own mind. not on the merit of the comments. but by the way that they would have "voted" if they had taken part in the discussion. Any number of admins mat have made a different decision, which is why this should be closed as no consensus.--JOJ ^Hutton 12:08, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Umm... @Amakuru - New York State is a higher-level jurisdiction than New York City, and New York State contains New York City. New York City is one municipality of and within New York State. Thus, your policy argument does not pass the litmus test. This is exactly why high topic experience is important for such a major move, and I'm not convinced the closer had this. This move needs to be overturned in order for Wikipedia's credibility to survive. I am extremely disappointed at the manner in which this was carried out - 1) No consensus whatsoever; 2) lack of informing editors with high topic experience on their Talk page that this was happening; 3) apparent lack of topic experience on the part of the closer himself/herself; and 4) suspicion of possible Supervote execution; Castncoot (talk) 02:01, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

• • • I just noticed now that the number of page views for this article has dropped to less than 4K per day, compared to 8-10K per day average with the previous title, before the move. I plead emergently to the administrator who closed this discussion to revert the page title to its original "New York" form immediately while continuing this re-opened discussion. Obviously this move has been extremely deleterious and has caused and is continuing to cause great and ongoing harm to the article, an obviously unintended consequence. The reason the number of page views has dropped so dramatically is that typing in "new york" takes one (ludicrously and unjustifiably) to a disambiguation page, where the reader gets hung up for one reason or another. This is unjustified and needs to be reverted immediately while this discussion is continuing, to stop the ongoing harm to the article and the gross disservice to Wikipedia readers who were beautifully directed all of these years to the correct New York State and City articles simply with well-written hatnotes and ledes.Please!!! *** Castncoot (talk) 01:33, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

We should expect a significant drop in page views of [[New York]] as [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1AVSA_enUS424US427&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=New+York Google now sends readers directly to New York (state) or New York City, as do the top two suggestions in our search box. Note that both Google and our search continue to list the (state) ahead of the City. However, for me, their Knowledge Graph is about the city. Page views of the dab are up only modestly, to ~120/day, which is very small in comparison to the state or city articles. I'm not following the argument that the move to (state) "caused and is continuing to cause great and ongoing harm to the article". As links to New York are corrected to link to New York City where appropriate, one might expect that to lead to some drop in page views of the New York (state) article. wbm1058 (talk) 18:00, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Now I see that typing in "New York" or "NY" (i.e. with caps) is redirecting to the State article, but "new york", "ny", or "New york" direct to the dab page. I have requested redirects of these other entities to the State article. These should have no bearing on the ongoing discussion but should stanch some of the bleeding caused by this misguided move. Castncoot (talk) 03:45, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

And now we have some double-redirects that the bots which fix these will eventually get to. I'm disappointed to see editors focused on this. The focus should be on correcting links to [[New York]] which are intended to link to the article about the city. wbm1058 (talk) 18:00, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Also here in Wikipedia, New York City is considered one of the Regions of New York. Please see this clearly demarcated on the NYC article underneath the infobox. This move would necessitate changing that as well, which really would be also highly disruptive. This move has been unnecessary and detrimental on many levels. Castncoot (talk) 04:40, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not following what the problem is here. "Regions of New York" intuitively implies the state, because the city does not have "regions". It just has boroughs and neighborhoods. wbm1058 (talk) 18:00, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm confused by your confusion. The bottom line is this - New York State is a higher-level jurisdiction than New York City and contains New York City as a municipality (and according to Wikipedia, a classified region) within the State. It does not matter what you SPECULATE is going through a reader's mind when he or she searches "New York". The move was clearly made in error and needs to be reverted ASAP to the status quo both to restore the credibility of Wikipedia as well as the many thousands of daily pageviews to the State article which for whatever reason have disappeared because of the move. Castncoot (talk) 02:29, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Castncoot, are you linking to WP:CRYSTALBALL because it defines the everyday word "speculate", or is there some piece of that which is relevant here? I don't see how the "What Wikipedia is not" policy is applicable to the process of determining article titles. That policy applies to aspects of the content of articles, but not their titles. New York fails the precision criterion because it forces us to speculate as to whether the city or the state is intended.

WP:CRITERIA is the policy that applies to article titles. Specifically, the title should unambiguously identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects. Though we use hatnotes to clarify the topic, they can't help with the search box problem, where the Wikimedia software only shows the titles. This is why I moved it.

I view what topic New York should (re)direct to as a separate issue, which is governed by WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. There is no single criterion for defining a primary topic. However, there are two major aspects that are commonly discussed in connection with primary topics. The page view stats, one measure of usage, favor the city. It seems likely there are hundreds of mislinks to New York which are intended for the city. That's another measure of usage, and mislinks actually do hurt Wikipedia's credibility to some extent. Long term significance doesn't seem to distinguish these in my view. Both the city and the state equally have "long-term significance".

While those two major aspects are the most commonly discussed criteria for defining primary topics, the policy does not limit us to just those two. I believe we agree that another criterion comes into play here:

I'm taking the liberty to use your words... "New York State is a higher-level jurisdiction than New York City, and New York State contains New York City. New York City is one municipality of and within New York State." When two governmental jurisdictions share the same name, the higher-level jurisdiction generally is assumed to be the primary topic. Do you agree with that? wbm1058 (talk) 05:58, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Wbm1058, but that's a nonsense. I don't know why it comes up every time this is discussed, as if it settles the matter. Primary topic is determined by long term significance, common usage, and what users are most likely to be searching for. "Higher" and "lower" jurisdictions play no part in it, if the other conditions are met or not met. That notion has already been rejected with Washington (where the city and state enjoy co-primary status), and as you probably recall from last year with Lhasa we ended up determining that the city was more prominent than its surrounding prefecture of the same name. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 07:24, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Washington is not directly applicable to this (minor) primary topic criterion, because the state is not a higher-level jurisdiction with control over the District of Columbia. They are closer to peer jurisdictions, as for example, both send delegates to presidential nominating conventions. Lhasa is an excellent counterpoint though (I should have remembered that one!). There was a lengthy, and somewhat contentious debate on that, as many thought that Lhasa (prefecture-level city) should be primary. The Chinese terminology is counter-intuitive to many Westerners: a "prefecture-level city" is more like a US state (a prefecture is roughly equivalent to a state). This one is even stranger as there is no definitive lower-level jurisdiction named Lhasa. Chengguan District, Lhasa is used as the best approximation of what is considered to be "Lhasa", even though large parts of Chengguan District are rural, and there are some urban or suburban parts of "metro Lhasa" which are in other districts (districts are the lower-level jurisdiction to the prefecture-level city). We also run counter to Chinese-language Wikipedia in that their "Lhasa" article (zh:拉萨市) is about Lhasa (prefecture-level city). I recall now that the case of New York, city vs. state, was brought up in the discussion at Talk:Lhasa § Proposed move. Also there is the case of São Paulo, the most populous state in Brazil – and its largest city. So this "higher-level jurisdiction" criterion may be in conflict with the usage criterion, and then that conflict needs to be resolved through discussion. "Higher-level jurisdiction" wins out in Wikipedias where there is one dominant country where a language is spoken: Chinese in China and Portuguese in Brazil. We are at this crossroads because the US does not have similarly dominant control over the English language. wbm1058 (talk) 12:07, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

• es:Nueva York (estado), fr:État de New York, de:New York (Bundesstaat), da:New York (delstat), it:New York (stato), pt:Nova Iorque (estado), nl:New York (staat), tr:New York (eyalet)... just to drill the worldview on this. I haven't looked at every language, but have yet to find one that follows the English-language convention.
• Compare São Paulo (state). pt:São Paulo in Brazil, but es:Estado de São Paulo, fr:État de São Paulo, nl:São Paulo (staat), it:San Paolo (stato), de:São Paulo (Bundesstaat)... you get the picture. There are other cases where "Higher-level jurisdiction" is the controlling criterion in the local language. wbm1058 (talk) 13:59, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

wbm1058 (talk), yes, I do believe that the higher-level jurisdiction, if it contains the lower-level jurisdiction as one among other geopolitical subentities within it, should maintain primary topic status. I also believe this was discussed and hashed out years ago - hence, NYS being titled "New York" and New York City being entitled New York City. If anything, the Sao Paulo pair needs to be fixed, rather than this one. (Also, the difference in pageviews between NYC and NYS, prior to the move, was not even a 2:1 ratio; so it's not like we're talking about an order of magnitude here.) Another uniquely convenient feature here is that people indeed commonly refer to the City as "New York City", which essentially auto-disambiguates the City from State. On the other hand, nobody writes "New York (state)" in a news article, for example. "The electoral vote in New York..." for example, obviously refers to the State. Sometimes common sense has to reign as the "highest-jurisdiction" policy of all, whereas people often get so wrapped up in trying to figure out how to contort a square peg into a triangular policy argument that they lose sight of the big picture. This has led misguidedly to finding a problem for a solution in this case. Please restore the status quo (and sanity) in order to reverse the ongoing significant harm to this article while a philosophical discussion continues. Best, Castncoot (talk) 06:11, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

• Overturn to "no consensus." Supervote, as noted by others above. Chase (talk | contributions) 20:37, 25 June 2016 (UTC)
• Overturn as "no consensus", though I could also support relisting as I think some good points have been raised (mostly after the so-called "rough consensus" was reached). WP:RMNAC allows page move request closures by non-admins only in the case of "clear consensus". This discussion, and the continued discussion on the talk page, show that there is nothing of the sort. No attempt whatsoever was made to include those editors that would be most affected by this decision (notifying WikiProjects and top editors) and the idea that this would be "canvassing" doesn't pass the smell test - there is no way of knowing how individual editors within the WikiProjects would feel on this issue. While it is true that WP should be edited with an international audience in mind, we should remember that "international" includes the locals, rather than excluding them. Antepenultimate (talk) 15:12, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
• Overturn There was no consensus, in addition to the fact that the article was fine before. Why change it when it was working? PointsofNoReturn (talk) 17:42, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

  Many people believed that it was not working. And they gave policy reasons why they believed that in the discussion. That's why there was a consensus to change it.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:54, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

• Overturn with no prejudice against a relist. This was quite a mess to read through, but it didn't exactly have a clear consensus to move. Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:59, 26 June 2016 (UTC)
• Relist as a prematurely closed discussion. More effort should be made to come to a clearer consensus. Policy-based arguments made after the close should be taken into consideration. Exceptional decisions of this sort often need more time for the discussion to play out. Generally we need a consensus that there is a primary topic to have a primary topic. The default if there is no consensus primary topic should be to disambiguate. – wbm1058 (talk) 13:59, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Another relevant example, from the US: Honolulu is a "Lhasa-like" case, because there is no clear jurisdictional boundary that definitively defines the geographical boundaries of "Honolulu". Perhaps Honolulu CCD comes closest. The article about the higher-level jurisdiction is actually at Honolulu County, which is a consolidated city-county – the city and county of Honolulu share the same jurisdiction. Perhaps the equivalent for New York would be making the New York article about Manhattan. So why hasn't Honolulu County been moved to Honolulu? Another unexplored line of discussion that might help lead us to consensus. A contrasting example is Marion County, Indiana which is consolidated with Indianapolis. There is a strong rationale for keeping them separate though. There are four "excluded cities" including Speedway, Indiana which remain autonomous from the consolidated city-county. There are no autonomous jurisdictions within Honolulu County. There are CDPs such as Pearl City, Hawaii, but these are all under the jurisdiction of the City and County of Honolulu. wbm1058 (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

@Wbm1058: given your thoughts about needing a consensus to establish that there's a primary topic, would you think that after a relisting this a suitable case for a panel close, or other remedy similar to what happened at Talk:Hillary Rodham Clinton/April 2015 move request? My worry with this is that despite the fact that many of us think there is a consensus to move when you take policies into account, this may not be recognised by a future closer (following relist) due to the sheer weight of oppose votes defending the status quo. That would be similar to what happened many times over with Hillary Clinton. This is a perennial request which nobody up to now has had the boldness to call as moved, despite the fact that by almost any objective standard there is no PTOPIC. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 09:46, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

One more example to drive my point home. Ireland the island is the PT on English Wikipedia, however: de:Irland (Insel), fr:Irlande (île), es:Irlanda (isla), da:Irland (ø) (Danish has an interesting word for island), it:Irlanda (isola), nl:Ierland (eiland)

In many languages, the Republic of Ireland is simply de:Irland, es:Irlanda, it:Irlanda, pl:Irlandia – the primary topic. Some languages do disambiguate, e.g. fr:Ireland.

My premise is that if this was just decided by American editors, Ireland would be a country. It seems to me that the "higher-level jurisdiction" criterion has been used here, i.e. the island is at a "higher-level" than the country.

So yes, some process equivalent to that which decided the status of Ireland might be appropriate. I don't have a lot of experience with such processes and decisions.

It would be helpful if the policy-based arguments were just laid out in a neutral-POV manner, when such process was initiated, so we could avoid some of the "crystal ball" type of arguments. I know we don't like to admit that we vote here, but I don't think policy clearly can decide this. It comes down to whether the "usage" criterion of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should get more or less weight than the "higher-level jurisdiction" criterion – a criterion that the policy allows for, but which hasn't really been spelled out until now. In the end, it may come down to a vote on which criterion controls this title. – wbm1058 (talk) 11:54, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Republic of Ireland gets nearly as many page views as Ireland: compare page views. It's kind of "eire" how closely those two track each other. I have to think that more than a handful of readers are stopping by at the island's hatnote on their way to the article about the Republic. This is arguably worse than New York... at least the city and the state both begin with "N", but the Republic doesn't show up in the search-box suggestions because it begins with "R" rather than "I".

The Budweiser article says: "In the European Union, excluding the United Kingdom, Ireland, Finland and Spain, the American beer is marketed as Bud..." Rather odd that they're grouping an island with three countries. wbm1058 (talk) 14:04, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I would be fine with redirecting Ireland, which clearly violates the precision WP:CRITERIA, to Ireland (island), so that we can more easily identify and fix what must surely be hundreds of mislinks.

What can be done to get either Ireland (country) or Ireland (state) or Ireland (republic) to rank higher in the search-box suggestion list than Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest 2009? wbm1058 (talk) 14:04, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Question asked at mw:Talk:Wikimedia Discovery § Ireland. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:24, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the island of Ireland is not a jurisdiction. It carries no legal significance whatsoever (at least currently; nobody knows what will happen in a post-Brexit future). Castncoot (talk) 23:50, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

The higher-level jurisdiction criterion, provided it geographically includes the lower-level jurisdiction, embodies an element of timelessness that reigns over a time-variant usage metric; this is perhaps the most significant policy argument of all (after the common sense argument:). The number of page views can vary with different factors or news events, but New York State will, for the foreseeable future, include New York City and hundreds of other municipalities, including Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, etc. These smaller municipalities' articles and their page views add up collectively, along with NYC's, to a significant numerical sum. New York State's population of 20 million includes the 8.6 million people of New York City, plus another 11+ million people, who should be allotted appropriate Wikipedic representational significance. Furthermore, New York City is classified as one of the Regions of New York, and "NY" is actually the official postal abbreviation for New York State. The status quo made sense to editors several years ago, and editors in 2016 are not fundamentally different. Best, Castncoot (talk) 04:43, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

• Overturn to no consensus Clearly the only justifiable read. Daniel Case (talk) 18:09, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm concerned with the increasing number of editors arguing that this should be overturned because there is "no consensus". WP:PRIMARYTOPIC states "consensus determines which article, if any, is the primary topic." In other words, we need to reaffirm that there is a consensus that New York, the state is the primary topic. If there is no consensus that there is a primary topic, I don't see how we can have a primary topic. The default, when there is no consensus primary topic, should be to disambiguate. Personally, I continue to support PT for the state, in spite of the page-view evidence, on the basis of the "higher-level jurisdiction" concept, which in a way is a variant of "long-term significance" as they are both subjective determinations. I also continue to support the current title as necessary precision, to provide the needed assist to patrol for and avoid mislinks intended for the city. wbm1058 (talk) 00:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

• I'm not. Your "The default if there is no consensus primary topic should be to disambiguate" is a partial opinion / partial !vote, it does determine how to disambiguate, and there is exists a counter argument that in the outcome of no consensus, the status quo prevails. "No consensus" is very well supported by the observation that the discussion had not reached a consensus, and also by complaints of insufficient notification for such a significant rename. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:43, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
• Rather, there needs to be consensus to move a page. If there is no consensus, the status quo remains, regardless of whether or not something is a primary topic. -- Tavix ^(talk) 01:04, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Totally agree with this statement by Tavix. The move was made in grave error in the first place, and the closer needs to swallow his pride and revert it without delay. Castncoot (talk) 03:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

The problem with this argument is that it ignores that consensus is not just a vote; The arguments are viewed through the lens of policy. Nobody has produced one single shred of evidence that the state is the primary topic, so the arguments of those wanting to keep the state article at the undisambiguated name are all fatally flawed on this count, and need to be discounted in assessing the consensus. Andrewa (talk) 04:25, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Of consensus is not just a vote. It is the strength of the arguments, along with the support of existing guidelines and policy to represent a more global consensus. That said I do not see here a consensus for the move. Especially considering TWODAB and the arguments brought up against the move. A long time standing name is of itself a strong argument and needs to particularly strong argument to over come. I do not see that in this RM. PaleAqua (talk) 06:10, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Now the discussion is starting to descend into borderline incoherence. I just looked at Move "Ireland" to "Ireland (island)" or similar (June 2015) and I'm struck by how much that discussion rhymes with this one. Andrewa, I'm curious what your take is on the Ireland situation. wbm1058 (talk) 13:29, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

@Andrewa, perhaps you have not read all of my comments above as to why the NYS is the primary topic here. I'm not going to repeat myself with regard to the reasons, you can read them. But the bottom line here is a lack of consensus to move a longstanding major article title in the first place. Castncoot (talk) 16:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I have indeed waded through the discussion, in detail, but it's possible I have missed something. My conclusion is that although you and others have expressed and repeated at length an opinion that NY State is primary, there's not a shred of evidence to support this. It's made a lot more difficult by posts such as the one to which I'm replying, which starts out addressing the issue of primacy (a valid issue that needs to be explored), and then jumps to restating your position on a different aspect of the discussion. (I've been guilty of this myself I admit, but we should try to avoid it.)

You have every right not to repeat yourself. It leaves others in the position of having to also wade through the above to see whether I've indeed missed something. I wish them luck, and if anyone does find it, please tell me. Andrewa (talk) 17:26, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

User:Castncoot, thank you for your reply [1] below, repeating your earlier post [2] to which I did not reply as it seemed irrelevant and still does. I will reply below. (Next time, just the diff will do fine.... do you see how I've linked to it?) Andrewa (talk) 03:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Reply below. Again, note how linking to the diff, rather than repeating the whole text, is both easier to write and a lot more concise to read. Andrewa (talk) 04:56, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

On the Ireland question (on which my take is requested above), I think the only on-topic statement I can make is that the issues in that discussion (in which I have participated, but not recently) are far more complex than those before us here, in my opinion. Is that sufficient? Andrewa (talk) 17:33, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Andrewa, in case you missed this para above, I've restated it here: "The higher-level jurisdiction criterion, provided it geographically includes the lower-level jurisdiction, embodies an element of timelessness that reigns over a time-variant usage metric; this is perhaps the most significant policy argument of all (after the common sense argument:). The number of page views can vary with different factors or news events, but New York State will, for the foreseeable future, include New York City and hundreds of other municipalities, including Buffalo, Rochester, Albany, etc. These smaller municipalities' articles and their page views add up collectively, along with NYC's, to a significant numerical sum. New York State's population of 20 million includes the 8.6 million people of New York City, plus another 11+ million people, who should be allotted appropriate Wikipedic representational significance. Furthermore, New York City is classified as one of the Regions of New York, and "NY" is actually the official postal abbreviation for New York State. The status quo made sense to editors several years ago, and editors in 2016 are not fundamentally different." Castncoot (talk) 01:35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Can anybody explain to me why the State's pageviews have dropped to 5K per day since this misguided move (around the same as New Jersey or Massachusetts, much smaller states) from 8 to 10K per day prior to the move, while the city's pageviews have remained steady? WP:PRECISION (or any other policy, for that matter) should not be deployed in such a way as to harm an article as this move has been doing. Is it really harmful for an unknowing reader worldwide to end up on the State page and be greeted with a clear hatnote? Or is it more harmful to have cut off 40-50% (thousands) of pageviews to this article in the name of trying to achieve "precision"? This move has proverbially thrown the baby out with the bath water and should be reverted fully, in no uncertain terms. Castncoot (talk) 01

35, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

I give you credit for voting "No primary meaning" at Requested Move: ROI → Ireland (state). I don't think Ireland is far more complex; they're different in the details but relatively simple in the final analysis. You won't find many shreds of evidence to support the island as primary topic either, because both are decided on subjective rationales, not on any scientific numbers-based (page views) analysis. Policy supports these subjective decisions to give "greater significance" to the island and the US state. I'm alternatively amused or annoyed when I see editors invoking WP:x, WP:y and P:z to justify their subjective decisions, without ever bothering to try to explain how those policies or guidelines are applicable. In the end, these just come down to votes, and you can't really weight them by "strength of argument". While those using page views and other stats for their rationale might seem to have stronger policy-based arguments, the "greater significance" / "higher level" side only needs their opinion to have an equally policy-based argument. I'm resigned to the need to get creative and find a way to fix the mislinks problem – so we don't say that the American beer is marketed as Bud on the island of Ireland, and in Northern Ireland, too. wbm1058 (talk) 19:53, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

! We can be thankful that Nassau and Suffolk counties have not seceded from New York to form a 51st state named Long Island ;)

...but Brooklyn and Queens are part of Long Island! No, they're not! Yes, they are! wbm1058 (talk) 16:07, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

@Castncoot: I believe what you are seeing is the nature of the pageview statistics. From here, New York got 3,588 views and New York (state) got 4,456 views. I believe (and I am willing to be corrected if wrong) that views of the New York redirect don't count in the views of New York (state) from this tool (if they did, then the statistics for June 24th make no sense, as according to the tool, New York received 4,308 views and New York (state) received 3,521 views). What this means is that the article on the state received 3588+4456=8044 views, plus hits that came in from any of the other redirects to the page, which is around the historical average for the state's pageviews. -Niceguyedc ^{Go Huskies!} 01:51, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

I believe that's right. So the ~8K views of New York are now split ~4K New York and ~4K New York (state). Also add in the views of New York State and New York state. See this chart. A line chart without the log scale may give a better perspective. Backlinks:

• New York 99,821 (lots of work to do there yet)
• New York (state) 120,592
• New York State 2,399
• New York state 275

The goal is to replace the New York backlinks with more specific links, which is expected to only modestly reduce page views of the state's article, by replacing these links with direct links to New York City where the intent of the link is obvious. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:32, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Replying to Castncoot 01:35, 1 July 2016 above: These arguments (which you have repeated several times above) seem to have no basis in guidelines or policy. Again, have I missed something? I did a search on higher-level jurisdiction criterion in our Project and Help namespaces, and the only hit was your posts in this MR discussion. Is it there by some other name? Andrewa (talk) 03:53, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

PS and if it is there, several other users [3] [4] seem to have missed it too (;-> Andrewa (talk) 05:14, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

@Andrewa: I guess you missed the last portion of my argument there, where I've noted that New York City is listed as one of the Regions of New York. Please look underneath the infobox in the New York City article as well. That makes New York City a progeny article of New York. Can progeny artices achieve primary status over the parent articles? Of course not. Castncoot (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

@Niceguydc and @wbm: I missed that feature of the page view statistics. I stand corrected there. Castncoot (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

@all: The fundamental point here is that consensus for the move was never achieved and so the move itself must be reverted, unless you believe that supervotes should dictate moves, especially with the waffling which occurred to get to this one. Castncoot (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. Per MOS:NOPIPE, WP:NOPIPE and WP:NOTBROKEN, I am removing pipes to New York, e.g., (diff). I'm agnostic toward whether these should link to New York State or New York state, so am leaving those as-is. I've even found a couple of erroneous New York pipes intended to be links to the city, e.g. (diff). – wbm1058 (talk) 16:39, 1 July 2016 (UTC)