User talk:Montanabw

WikiStress level

Beware! This user's talk page is monitored by talk page watchers. Some of them even talk back.

Make articles, not wikidrama

This user replies where s/he likes, and is inconsistent in that respect.

User page Talk page Good and Featured articles Barnstars The DYK Corral Toolbox Advice About Magic unicorns

Sandbox invite

Anyone may play in my sandboxes, in the archive list to the right, IF you promise to behave. This means:

• No kicking sand
• No hitting other people over the head with toys
• No pooping, even if you are a cat and neatly cover it up!
• It's my sandbox, so I can throw you out if you misbehave!  :-)

Typical talk page discussion thread

"[The] readers will not be privy to the massive undercurrents of dross that underpins WP. They require well written, well sourced, encyclopaedic material that can inform, enlighten and satisfy their interest."

—User:Leaky caldron to User:ThatPeskyCommoner

"We live a time when criticism, especially here on Wikipedia, is considered to be a personal attack, which is at the root of this nonsense. Yet without criticism we can't improve."

—The user formerly known as Malleus Fatuorum

"Montana, you know I respect you greatly--you write FAs that have fewer adjectives than that outburst."

—User:Drmies

"Every edit, especially bold ones, is disruptive. Disruptive just means changing the status quo and because Wikipedia is in a constant state of evolution, it is in a constant state of disruption ..."

—User: Liz

Before you post on my talk page (humor)

Come here and I'll point the spout at YOU!

Don't call names, you saucy dog-hearted varlot!

You have been noticed using opprobrious epithets. It's payback time from the Shakespeare Insult Generator! To activate the Insultspout and receive fresh insults, click here. Note that all insults generated by the Spout are guaranteed literary and cultured, unlike the nasty things you said, you paunchy dizzy-eyed ratsbane.

Happy Montanabw's Day!

User:Montanabw has been identified as an Awesome Wikipedian, and therefore, I've officially declared today as Montanabw's day! For being such a beautiful person and great Wikipedian, enjoy being the Star of the day, dear Montanabw! Peace, Rlevse 01:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC) A record of your Day will always be kept here.

For a userbox you can add to your userbox page, see User:Rlevse/Today/Happy Me Day! and my own userpage for a sample of how to use it. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Awww, gee! That was really super nice! Thank you! Montanabw^(talk) 04:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

'tis the season

Louisa Venable Kyle wrote a children's book on The Witch of Pungo --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Precious translates to the PumpkinSky Prize, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:03, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

This is cool

Parking the link: https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/TED_conferences/TED_speakers_challenge/Participants#Prizes

GA review

I am in need of a couple of GA reviews. If you or any of your stalkers are interested. My newest Carmen Casco de Lara Castro was a Paraguayan politician and human rights advocate. (Most of the sourcing is in Portuguese or Spanish) My oldest (it's been pending since June) is Sophia Parnok, a Russian poet. (Most of the sourcing is in English). If you can help, that'd be great and thanks! SusunW (talk) 16:00, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Pony question

Hi Montana, I'm doing research on how to make a Native American travois for my doll Kaya, a girl from the Nez Perce tribe. I have her Nez Perce horse and saddle as well. Today I am reading this:

Indian horses were small and more correctly described as ponies. Hendry (Burpee 1973: 32), in 1754 the first to describe horses on the northern Plains, said they were "fine tractible animals, about 14 hands high; lively and clean made." Ewers (1955: 33) summarizes a composite type picture of Indian ponies: "The adult male Indian pony averaged a little under 14 hands in height, weighed about 700 pounds, possessed a large head in proportion to its body, good eyes ... large, round barrel, relatively heavy shoulders and hips; small, fine, strong limbs and small feet." Doring (1984: 65) presents a similar composite picture of Comanche and Cheyenne ponies, and ascribes their large bellies to their range grass diet. Remington states the "barrel is a veritable tun" and emphasizes the horse's practical rather than aesthetic build: the "head and neck join like the two parts of a hammer" and the mane is as likely to fall half to each side, rather than cleanly to one shoulder (Remington 1889: 339). [1]

I looked at our pony article and it does not mention Native American ponies. Also, do you think that the Nez Perce horse would be called a pony (our article calls it a "horse" and does not mention pony)? Gandydancer (talk) 18:34, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) According to what I've read, the original American Indian horses were the true old-time mustangs that came straight from the Spanish horses. They technically were classed as horses and not ponies, but it got muddled because most of the tribes called them "ponies" and other people, like cowboys, picked up the term. (Lots of old books refer to "cowponies" and their attributes are pretty much the same as the Indian horses, since they were mostly mustangs too.) Since your doll is Nez Perce, her horse is probably an Appaloosa, but there is a lot of difference between an Appaloosa from (I'm guessing the era your doll is from) the early 1800s and now. The old ones with the Nez Perce were from Spanish bloodlines, but they nearly died out in the 1930s and subsequently got crossbred with Quarter Horses, Thoroughbreds, etc. Therefore, most of the modern ones are much bigger and built "prettier" than the ones the Nez Perce had in the 1800s. (There are some people breeding foundation Appaloosas with as little outside blood as possible.) Ok, I got a little sidetracked, but hopefully there's something helpful in there. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 20:30, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm greatly interested in everything you said or anything you may have to add. It sort of fits into something I noticed reading an old on-line book about their attempt to reach Canada in which the US Calvary's horses were called horses but the Nez Perce's horses were called ponies. I also read a little about the attempt in the 90's to study and attempt to breed a good replica. DNA testing was done and was interesting. One source said that the last Nez Perce horse was killed by the Calvary and another said that a small band were still on some ranch. BTW, my doll Kaya (1764) is one of the historical dolls that we will have in our library along with their books. [[2]] Gandydancer (talk) 06:11, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) WAF pretty much nailed it, Gandydancer. Horses 14 hands high are registered with the American Quarter Horse Association, (see American_Quarter_Horse#Breed characteristics),the American Paint Horse Association, the Jockey Club Thoroughbred registry (we had a reg TB filly just under 14.2 hands that set a track record), and so on. The standard top end height for Pony of the Americas is 14 hands and for a Shetland pony it is much less. Equine professionals (mostly stock horses) still use the term "pony" when referring to a horse. I use it more frequently in business...as in "pony up."😆 On the racetrack, we have pony horses to assist race horses from the paddocks to the track. I guess when it comes to using the term, context matters. ^{Atsme📞📧} 20:12, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

My own horse is half Quarter Horse and half mustang and is right under 14 hands, but with fairly big bones and heavy muscles so he weighs about 800 pounds. I don't know where his mustang mother came from, but she did have the Bureau of Land Management freeze brand on her neck and he has that old Spanish look like the horses in Will James' cowboy illustrations. His feet are a lot harder than a regular domestic horse's and while most horses have to have their teeth floated (filed down) every year, his grow extremely slow and only need it every 2 years. He is also much more observant and less friendly than most full-blood domestic horses. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 20:43, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

About the Mustang heritage I had found this: [3]...but please remember that I know next to nothing about horses. And I certainly do not know what a "hand" is either. C:) Gandydancer (talk) 21:07, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) All this brings back fond memories the old country and of Luc, my Uncles Brabander. I came to America at seven (63 years ago) and I can still remember riding him as he pulled the hay wagons into the fields and I held on to his golden mane for dear life. So enormous and so gentle. ―Buster7 ☎ 23:03, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Gandydancer a hand is a unit of measure used to determine the height of a horse. SusunW (talk) 00:06, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

This Nez Perce "Indian pony" doesn't look pony-sized based on the size of the guys sitting on the ground next to it

Late to this party, but looks like the stalkers got it. Gandydancer, The reality is that there is no universally agreed-upon definition of a "pony." The modern Appaloosa is a descendant from the horses owned by the Nez Perce people, though now crossed with other breeds of horse, and the modern Nez Perce horse is a modern attempt to recreate the body phenotype of the original by crossing Appies on (of all things) the Akhal-Teke (why they want to cross two breeds that both have notoriously quirky dispositions is beyond me, but never mind...). On WP, our official position is, per WP:NOR and WP:V, designating breeds as "horse" or "pony" is usually the responsibility of the breed registry or other official organization that sets the breed standard. Where there is no organization to offer a firm definition, or where we are looking at a historical record, the term usually is used to imply a diminutive horse, but also can be used both as a term of affection ("well, gotta go feed my ponies") or in a condescending manner ("just a pony") to imply that some horse is just too small. It is also used in verb form (to pony) to describe the act of a rider on one horse leading another horse -- (Ponying). As Atsme pointed out, there are plenty of very tall horses that get dubbed "ponies", such as Polo "ponies" and racetrack "ponies" (often retired racehorses, such as Lava Man). In short, even a lot of Native people adopted the term "pony" to describe their horses, which were often small due to life in harsh conditions, they generally had a horse phenotype (longer legs, slim bodies, etc). So... I'd say you are always safe to say "horse" and if you want to call it a "pony", it's best to also imply that the person who has the animal is a child. Montanabw^(talk) 19:42, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

I expected to get excellent information from you Montana and I was right. I'd actually hoped to be able to call my little (plastic) horse a pony but it seems I do need to call her a horse. Sort of... On the other hand, my heart strings still strongly pull me to call Kaya's horse a pony as was done in the book I read of the (heartbreaking) story of the Nez Perce last gasp for freedom from American rule. When one wonders what it was that prompted our early settlers to call their horses "horses" and the Native American horses "ponies" one needs to think. It seems that the Indian horses were a little smaller but I think it is more than just that. They must have noted that in battle the Indians stripped off their clothing and the saddles from their horses, and painted themselves and their horses as well. Perhaps the Americans sensed that this spoke of a brotherhood that the Native Americans felt with their horses, which indeed they did, calling them "the four-leggeds" as opposed to us, the two-leggeds. Maybe this was expressed by calling their horses ponies, perhaps... Same thing (as mentioned above) for the cowboys...maybe. Also, I can't forget what I read about how the Indians broke their horses: after running them to the point of exhaustion they breathed into their nostrils and then the wild horse was "tamed". Perhaps just a romantic tale and perhaps not. Heartfelt thanks to all who responded. One can read this stuff in books but it takes conversation to make it jell, at least for me it does. Gandydancer (talk) 15:17, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Yep, "pony" can be weighted with political and historic baggage. There were also social class implications. Some of it dates back to the Breed of Horses Act 1535 & Horses Act 1540. The training methods of Native people varied, and the run to exhaustion method you describe is sort of romanticized (the breathing in the nostrils to tame them thing), but underlain by some actual methods used by many plains-dwelling peoples worldwide, including cowboys. Montanabw^(talk) 17:26, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

New Page Reviewer Newsletter

Hello Montanabw, thank you for your efforts reviewing new pages!

Backlog update:

• The new page backlog is currently at 14304 pages. We have worked hard to decrease from over 22,000, but more hard work is needed! Please consider reviewing even just a few pages a day.
• Currently there are 532 pages in the backlog that were created by non-autoconfirmed users before WP:ACTRIAL. The NPP project is undertaking a drive to clear these pages from the backlog before they hit the 90 day Google index point. Please consider reviewing a few today!

Technology update:

• The Wikimedia Foundation is currently working on creating a new filter for page curation that will allow new page patrollers to filter by extended confirmed status. For more information see: T175225

General project update:

• On 14 September 2017 the English Wikipedia began the autoconfirmed article creation trial. For a six month period, creation of articles in the mainspace of the English Wikipedia will be restricted to users with autoconfirmed status. New users who attempt article creation will now be redirected to a newly designed landing page.
• Before clicking on a reference or external link while reviewing a page, please be careful that the site looks trustworthy. If you have a question about the safety of clicking on a link, it is better not to click on it.
• To keep up with the latest conversation on New Pages Patrol or to ask questions, you can go to Wikipedia talk:New pages patrol/Reviewers and add it to your watchlist.

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If you wish to opt-out of future mailings, go here. TonyBallioni (talk) 02:16, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Mission Mountain Wood Band

The article Mission Mountain Wood Band you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Mission Mountain Wood Band for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Message delivered by Legobot, on behalf of Cwmhiraeth -- Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:21, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Metropolitan Museum of Art Weekly Challenge, WikiProject Equine and The Horse Fair

Hi friend! We've chosen Rosa Bonheur's The Horse Fair has been chosen as the first-ever Metropolitan Museum of Art Weekly Challenge for the coming week, and I'd like to invite you to become involved. I don't know if you or other folks at WikiProject Equine has tackled artworks before, but this seems like a particularly relevant one with an interesting history.--Pharos (talk) 15:51, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Hello. That's fun, I've work on the french article (with french sources) at the beginning of this year. Could be interesting to have a cross-language challenge ! --Tsaag Valren (talk) 18:52, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

@Tsaag Valren: That's great, and I admire work work on the French article, but I was hoping even more that we could work together and share content between languages and projects.--Pharos (talk) 15:45, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Women in Red October editathon invitation

		Welcome to Women in Red's October 2017 worldwide online editathons. New: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/57|"Women and disability"]] [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/58|"Healthcare"]] [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/59|"Geofocus on the Nordic countries"]] Continuing: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/Meetup/00|#1day1woman Global Initiative]] Begin preparing for November's big event: [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Red/The World Contest|Women World Contest]]
		(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language mailing list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list)

--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 15:54, 25 September 2017 (UTC) via MassMessaging

DYK for 2017 Montana wildfires

On 26 September 2017, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article 2017 Montana wildfires, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that as of 12 September, 48 wildfires in Montana (example pictured) were actively burning? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/2017 Montana wildfires. You are welcome to check how many page hits the article got while on the front page (here's how, 2017 Montana wildfires), and it may be added to the statistics page if the total is over 5,000. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

— Maile (talk) 13:17, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Recent hockey AfDs

I see you're advocating salting some of these fresh nominations I've been putting up, but I don't think that's needful. What's going on is that following a comment Djsasso made, I decided for a lark to take a look at the whole archived list of ice hockey AfDs, since standards have both tightened over the years and AfD voting itself isn't nearly so loosey-goosey. Unsurprisingly, a lot of early AfDs were kept on specious or stale grounds and deserve revisiting, but they were valid closes in the first instance. As far as the bogus recreations go, those are almost all the doing of Dolovis, whom I hope and trust we won't see again. Ravenswing 07:39, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• No worries, just was thinking about how to avoid articles being recreated for the third or fourth time. Kind of blows my mind that a sports figure who played for a couple seasons in a minor league seems to survive AfD, while a woman scientist who had to publish her work under her husband's name has to endure an AfD battle for what should be a snow keep. Sigh... Montanabw^(talk) 16:33, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Regarding Meykandar

Hi Monanabw, Thank you very much for reviewing the article Meykandar. I accept that I felt some difficulties in making clear some terms and phrases in that page since I'm a second language editor. The page is now rewritten but I didn't remove multiple issues tag yet. Could you please review the article whether it is clear enough to understand or not. If the page still want further clarification and grammatical enhancement please let me know. I'll try my best. Thanks again. --5anan27 (talk) 19:07, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Eternal Sun horse copy edit due to DYK

I recently authored my first racing/show horse article on hall of fame horse Eternal Sun with White Arabian Filly's assistance. I decided to put it up for my 3rd DYK. Montanabw reviewed the nomination for me and passed it through. However, the editor who was checking it over to promote it took a very strong stance against its readiness, citing about half of the article as storytelling and magazine style. This editor is very gung-ho. I made one edit pass to it, and then the editor jumped on it with a suggestion to go to WP:GOCE and I hadn't even replied on my talk page or on the nomination that I was done yet editing yet. I let the editor know this on the talk page, and things are now in my court. Montanabw can't help me with the editing since she was a reviewer. WAF, since you helped me, feel free to jump in, but please do so soon. Otherwise, anyone else with horse experience that would be great. Or, just anyone who feels they can help would be great. I'd like to keep the facts and the essence of the article but satisfy the objection. I actually feel that the sections being pointed out do not entirely fail the MOS, but need an objective hand. Also, the editor is obviously not familiar with horse articles. For example, pleasure driving is a show horse event, not fun. I followed the American Quarter Horse Hall of Fame articles as my guidelines. In particular, Lightning Bar, a featured article takes some of the same "story telling" liberties. To get familiar with the editor's claims and so forth, see the following: [4] and [5] dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:42, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi there, I did a quick edit that I think might help. Take a look and revise as you see fit. Good luck with the DYK! Jlvsclrk (talk) 23:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Jlvsclrk I love what you did! Thanks for helping. I know you are Montananbw's right hand with horses. I've seen your great work on some very notable horses. Just the same, I'd like to hold it open to WAF since she helped with it initially and a few others (Bri or Rexx?) since the editor in question is objecting to the storytelling from that section to the end of the article. But definitely you've done more than half of what was needed since the rest is progeny and death/legacy, and I don't agree that progeny has storytelling or has very little storytelling. I also can't see how the death and legacy needs much work, there isn't one adjective in there. I can't say enough thanks. :) dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

I finally broke down and gave it a few copyedits too. The promoter probably will now say it needs a new reviewer,meh... anyone game? Montanabw^(talk) 01:23, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

The promoting editor took a long time, but then finally took action. Apparently, this editor knows better than all of us. They felt that all of our edits did not meet their standards this second go-around either. So if you can't get your demands met and can't get consensus, then take what you want by force. Just edit the article and make the changes you want, so that's what they just did. All of this for a DYK. You'd think I was getting a GA review or something. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:34, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

If you're talking about this, it looks pretty mild to me. Sometimes you have to take copyediting in stride, and this looks like one of those times. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Bri Actually, I see what you mean if it was just that. But from what I edited out or changed, to what Jlvsclrk changed, and then what they took out, they removed everything they could about Howard and why he sought and bought the horse, and why the horse changed his life enough that he wrote that on the horse's tombstone. And I didn't even write all I could have from the source about it, trying to be concise. I was "storytelling." The last three sections were storytelling and sounded like a magazine article. Oh, yes the editor is probably settling, they wanted more changed then just that one section. They mentioned that Progeny and the Death and legacy sections had the same issues. Oh yes, and it was not impassioned and concise. That's why the last time they suggested I go to WP:GOCE. So I asked that the content about Howard be reworded to be more encyclopedic and Jlvsclrk did a great job on that. And with one of the edits, the promoter took the opportunity to remove even more content about him. dawnleelynn^(talk) 23:41, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, I did have a look at the article when you first posted here, but didn't have time to come back to it till today. And to be honest I stumbled over that same section and another passage with a quote about an "honorable man who truly loved his horses" – it really isn't about Eternal Sun. But in the end I tend to take rather a light touch with someone with a passion for the subject, some press a little harder; you got a little squooshed here but don't let it get to you.

If it helps any, I came across an archived Signpost op-ed the other day that deals with this a bit; I think there's a good point made that we press a little to hard and expect DYKs from newer editors to be too polished, because there's too much emphasis on "seasoned" editors (ahem) to collect them for wikipoints. Part of why I'm here working with you indicates the degree to which I agree. ☆ Bri (talk) 00:05, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Bri, I appreciate your honesty. I have grown some since I started editing here a year ago. I have recognized my tendency to overreact to issues as my first response, and I now take time to digest issues before responding, sometimes that entails cooling down periods too. That's why I have not taken any action or responded to the editor in question yet. Your advice about the difference in intensity of editors is very well noted. And I have encountered all of those intensities before in the last year, so yes I need to move on and not let it get to me. I was just thinking earlier that this whole DYK is taking up too much of my time. I am still struggling with how to I tell the facts and make it encyclopedic. But I have faith I will get there. I can see the difference between articles I wrote a year ago and ones I write now. And I know ones I write a year from now will improve. And being a tech writer for a long time in real life, I know I can get there. It's my passion for the subjects that gets in my way and it doesn't help that the sources for bull are so darn passionate too, LOL! At any rate, I read the article and it has many good points, thanks. Thanks also for spending time on this newbie. I will remember the horse is the subject, not the owners. That quote by a well-known horse trainer, should have left out the part about Howard, and just retained the part of Eternal Sun being a big part of her success. I can change that. Also, I think the editor got frustrated that I was "getting it" and just did it themself. Which is what I think you meant, they are wanting me to be more polished? dawnleelynn^(talk) 00:49, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Montana says she broke down and made an edit earlier. But really the editor who was looking to the promote the nomination negated her review and ignored her questions, so I really feel that let her off the hook as a reviewer and any conflict doing an edit. But doesn't the same rule apply to the promoter? Isn't this a conflict of interest to make an edit to the article when you're the one reviewing it and looking to promote it? Just sayin' dawnleelynn^(talk) 03:30, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

Animal enclosure redirect for deletion

Of possible interest: WP:Redirects for discussion/Log/2017 September 30#Animal enclosure ☆ Bri (talk) 14:01, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

• On that note, page stalker alert: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cage (enclosure) (2nd nomination). **headdesk**Montanabw^(talk) 15:23, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Fun pics

Hello M. I hope that you are having a pleasant autumn. I though you might enjoy the pics and posts at this thread User talk:Bishonen#Thanks as they are about your part of the globe. It is fun seeing TB's reactions to them. Best regards. MarnetteD|Talk 01:46, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Women in Red/The World Contest

Hi. Thankyou for your participation in the challenge series or/and contests. In November The Women in Red World Contest is being held to try to produce new articles for as many countries worldwide and occupations as possible. There will be over $4000 in prizes to win, including Amazon vouchers and paid subscriptions. If this would appeal to you and you think you'd be interested in contributing new articles on women during this month for your region or wherever please sign up in the participants section. The articles done may also count towards the ongoing challenge. If you're not interested in prize money yourself but are willing to participate and raise money to buy books about women for others to use, this is also fine. Help would also be appreciated in drawing up the lists of missing articles. If you think of any missing articles please add them to the sub lists by continent at Missing articles. Thankyou, and if taking part, good luck!♦ Dr. Blofeld 08:53, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

Human/canine bond

I have written about this on the talk page of the article as well.

Why are my edits POV?

All I deleted was the matter of the relationship being "mutually beneficial"?

But are dogs special?

Do the people of the West even believe it themselves?

If they do, why do they torture dogs to death in laboratories just as they torture pigs and cattle to death on factory farms and laboratories?

And anthropomorphism is a conception, not a real field like anthrozoology.

-70.190.102.49 (talk) 02:08, 10 October 2017 (UTC)

You may be interested in this discussion

Hello, you may be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Heilman (3rd nomination).NikolaiHo^☎️ 03:05, 10 October 2017 (UTC)