Talk:Chairperson

Title

I was surprised today to find this article at Chairman. Is there an interest in holding another RM, and if so, what's the best suggestion? The most obvious alternatives would be Chair (officer), Chair (position), and Chairperson.

It seems the article was moved from Chairman to Chairperson in 2006, then moved back to Chairman in 2008 after an RM. See Talk:Chairman/Archive 1#Requested move to "Chairman". There was another RM in 2015 to move it away from Chairman, which failed to gain consensus. See Talk:Chairman/Archive 2#Requested move 17 February 2015. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:28, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I would support this, but I've honestly given up on this... EvergreenFir (talk) 01:40, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

I think we should give it another try, because it just seems odd to use this title in 2019. MOS:GNL recommends: "Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision." Chair (position) could be confused with a professorial chair, so probably Chair (officer) or Chairperson should be the options to suggest. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:08, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

It's old, but FWIW... User:EvergreenFir/sandbox2#Chair. EvergreenFir (talk) 02:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

That's very helpful, thank you. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:13, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 22 March 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Despite only relisting it yesterday, it was a second relist and closing instructions allow closures to take place as soon as consensus, or a lack thereof, becomes apparent. There is a numerical majority of users who have expressed support of a change towards a more gender-neutral term. However, it is numerically even-stevens for which alternative to use with regards to Chairperson v.s. Chair with some form of a disambiguator. While I appreciate Levivich's attempt at gaining further consensus after the second relist, it's clear both from the results of the poll, the prior discussions, and from Wikipedia:Polling is not a substitute for discussion, that there is no clear consensus on what to move it to. Furthermore, clarification is probably required with regards to the strength of the argumentation. Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language is a guideline whereas Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names is a policy. Both sides made arguments on the latter grounds, however, the only way I can see consensus being gained is for an RfC on the interaction between the Manual of Style's section on gender-neutral language and what happens if it clashes article titling policy. Wikipedia:Article titles#Deciding on an article title is of little help either, because the current system is not consistent. For example, we have firefighter and police officer but we also have doorman and helmsman. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 15:34, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

---

Chairman → Chair (officer) – Lots of readers will feel excluded by the current title. Common alternatives are Chair (officer) and Chairperson. Please state your preference when commenting. A few sources:

1. Chicago Manual of Style, 17th edition, 2017, 5.250, p. 318: "chair; chairman; chairwoman; chairperson. Chair is widely regarded as the best gender-neutral choice. Since the mid-seventeenth century, chair has referred to an office of authority."
2. European Union. The EU's Interinstitutional style guide and English Style Guide (26 February 2019, 15.1) both say: "gender-neutral language is nowadays preferred wherever possible. In practice, gender-neutral drafting means two things [including] avoiding nouns that appear to assume that a man rather than a woman will perform a particular role: ‘chairman’ is the most obvious example."
3. WP:MOS#Gender-neutral language: "Use gender-neutral language where this can be done with clarity and precision." SarahSV ^(talk) 22:25, 22 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. SITH (talk) 14:00, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this subsection with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Support as above. Prefer Chair (officer). Second choice: Chairperson. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:26, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as unnatural, support Chairperson per WP:NATURAL In ictu oculi (talk) 22:39, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: It doesn't matter whether readers "will feel excluded"; the term tends to not apply to them. What does matter is the usage of the gender-neutral terms, which have increasingly been adopted, whether to avoid "chairwoman" or otherwise. I feel "chair" with some disambiguative term to be the best option here, as "chairperson" isn't as common. ONR (talk) 02:59, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose all per the Terminology section of the article itself which provides ample evidence that "chair" and "chairperson" are both rare forms, and often discouraged as poor English. This is a case where the suggested move fails WP:MOS#Gender-neutral language more than the current title does because chair/chairperson fails both "clarity and precision". The lead should reflect that "chairman" is the most common usage for both men and women, and that occasionally "chairwoman" is used for women in the position, and chair/chairperson are exceedingly rare. -- Netoholic @ 04:32, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose all as per Netoholic. "-man" in this context is common gender as it has been for the last thousand years or so. BTW, at the moment quoting an EU guide to how English should be used is rather like waving a red rag in front of a charging bull! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:02, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose all as per 2 previous editors. We are supposed to inform about well-known, much-used words and facts, not propagate change. "All men are created equal" includes women, girls and boys. Everyone knows that. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:53, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support those who claim the usage is "rare" should try googling the exact phrase "chair of the committee". It is, as just one example, standard usage for the committees of the UK parliament (e.g. [1]). In my experience, "chairman" is now the rare usage. The argument that "-man" is common gender simply does not reflect modern English – language changes. (The same argument used to be used about "brothers" or "brethren" including women in religious language, but modern translations, services and hymns have abandoned this practice.) As for "all men are created equal", when first used, it certainly did not mean that either women or African slaves were equal, so it's a clear example of why "man" is now inappropriate, not an argument as to why we should still use it in this sense. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:07, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  I do not believe our personal opinions about past or present meanings are what we are supposed to go by. Article titles at Wikipedia adhere to Wikipedia guidelines. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per others above. Assuming that "chairman" is still the dominant designation of people exercising this role (and I strongly suspect that it is), I think it deserves its own article. Likewise, the "chair" article reflects the piece of furniture and offers a dab page for other uses. The close variant "chairwoman" currently redirects to "chairman". The article title need not imply that it is the preferred term, just that it is the most common. The "chairman" article can (and does) discuss alternative terms, and this is the best place to do it. Jmar67 (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  It's not clear how true that assumption is. It's difficult to use searches because of the need for context. Here's one Google ngram. ("Chair" is even more common if you switch to American English.) Peter coxhead (talk) 23:03, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

  Have to be really careful with things like this, you can try a number of phrases and pick the one that seems to present your point - here's one based using a slightly different phrase which points the other way. Even using your ngram, the results change in favor of "chairman" if you just turn on "case-insensitive". Not saying a fairly worded Ngram can't be found, just that I don't think its that easy. -- Netoholic @ 03:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment For those not aware of it, this issue was previously addressed in 3 separate RM initiatives for this article. See the "Title" discussion, which triggered this one. Jmar67 (talk) 00:11, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support Chair (officer) on the basis of the sources provided and my own sense as a native English speaker that "chair" is the most common word for this concept. To those who oppose, could you provide any sources indicating that "chairman" is more common or recommended by style guides nowadays? Otherwise your arguments seem weak compared to SV's argument, which is based on reliable sources. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
  • WP:TITLES doesn't say anything about giving preferential consideration to any style guides over any other reliable sources. -- Netoholic @ 03:19, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support - Chair appears to me to have become the neutral/neuter form of the term. While NGrams are helpful, they only go up to 2008, so it's 10 years out of date. Further, the trajectory of "chairman" is steeply negative (another ngram above: chair of).

Moreover, multiple manuals of style note that Chair is acceptable or preferred:

• Chicago Style, also used by the American Library Association
• The Copyeditor's Handbook
• American Philosophical Association
• American Medical Association
• American Psychological Association EvergreenFir (talk) 06:39, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, the Variations section in the article is both very selective (e.g. only one of the most reactionary UK newsapapers) and out-of-date. These manuals should be included in the discussion at that point in the article. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• The "chair of" part of your Ngram seems to be picking up a lot of false positives referring to furniture. -- Netoholic @ 17:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• Move to Chairperson. Chair (officer) is unnatural and we strongly prefer WP:NATURAL disambiguation as long as the term is commonly used (not necessarily the most used). Between "chairman" and "chairperson," the former is probably more popular, but there are other reasons to prefer the second. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 10:16, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support move to either chair (officer) or chairperson per MOS:GNL.
  • The Cambridge Dictionary says Although chairman can refer to a person of either sex, chairperson or chair is often preferred to avoid giving the idea the person is necessarily male.
  • I went through a list of Fortune 500 female CEOS and looked at how their Wiki articles referred to them. Although many do use the word chairman, many others do not or else use a mix of terms, suggesting that while the word can be used to refer to a woman, it's weighted male and not really "gender neutral":
    • Chairman: Marillyn Hewson, Lynn Good, Kathryn V. Marinello, and Mary Laschinger.
    • Mix of chairman and other: Mary Barra: Chairwoman in prose; Chairman in the infobox. Ginni Rometty: chair and chairperson in prose; chairman in the infobox. Kathleen Mazzarella: Chairman and Chair.
    • Other: Indra Nooyi: chairwoman. Phebe Novakovic: chairwoman. Geisha Williams: board chair. Vicki Hollub: U.S. chair. Michele Buck: Co-Chair. Beth E. Mooney chairwoman.
  • An aside: Something tells me that this change would've happened a long time ago if it weren't for Wikipedia's giant gender gap...
  • Another aside: Chair seems to be more common than chairperson, and it's older and, well, it just sounds better. But I admit chairperson conforms better to WP:NATURAL. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:35, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
• Updated vote: I Support a move to a gender neutral alternative. Ranked preference: 1. Splitting the article into "Board chair" and "Committee chair". 2. "Chair (role)" 3. "Chairperson" 4. "Chairman and chairwoman". 5. "Chair (officer)" WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 21:26, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  • See my final vote in the ranked choice section below. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:52, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

  (Slightly OT) Just out of interest, why do people prefer the French derived masculine "-person" to the Anglo-Saxon common gender "-man"? You really ought to discuss charperson/chairpersonne as a problem. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:54, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Martin of Sheffield: because we aren't writing in either French or Anglo-Saxon, so how the words were originally used in these languages are of no relevance to how they are used in modern English, in which "-person" is now regarded by speakers as gender neutral, whereas "-man" is not. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:03, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  You're exhibiting a gender bias by selecting only articles about women to draw your conclusion. This topic is not gender-restricted, and so your comparisons should not be either. It seems more like you're voting to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS, not follow our titling guidelines. -- Netoholic @ 18:09, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  I was investigating the claim that chairman is gender neutral. Getting an idea of how accepted and common it is to use the term to refer to women is, I think, a reasonable way to do that. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 00:02, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Alternative proposal While there may be eventual consensus to move, it is certainly conceivable that there will be no consensus on the target. One compromise solution might be to move to "Chair (role)" and restructure the article to focus on the function itself rather than the person. The article can then describe, in a neutral manner, the various terms designating the person. Jmar67 (talk) 22:38, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Another alternative proposal: "Chairman and chairwoman" (WP:AND: Where possible, use a title covering all cases: for example, Endianness covers the concepts "big-endian" and "little-endian". Where no reasonable overarching title is available, it is permissible to construct an article title using "and", as in Promotion and relegation, Balkline and straight rail, Hellmann's and Best Foods) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:02, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
    • I also thought in that direction. What would you think of "Chairman (and equivalent terms)"? Jmar67 (talk) 02:58, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Hmm, I would not call that title gender neutral, so it adds bloat without much benefit. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
  • One more alternate proposal: splitting the article in two, one for corporate chairs and one for government chairs. Possible titles for the former: "Board chair", "Chair of the board", "Chair (business)". And for the latter: "Committee chair", "Chair of the committee", "Chair (government)". WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 17:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
    • President does that, but I don't see a reason to do it here. Jmar67 (talk) 03:27, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Here's my reasoning: 1. a chair of a government committee strikes me as a very different thing from a chair of a corporate board, so it feels a little dubious to bundle them together into one article. 2. My understanding is that corporate chairs usually preside over a "board" and government chairs a "committee", which means we could go with, say, "Board chair" and "Committee chair" for the titles. Those two titles are a. gender neutral and b. don't need any parenthetical statements, and so they conform better both WP:NATURAL and MOS:GNL. Also, I don't think either title could be confused with the academic title which was discussed below. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:00, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
        • I would prefer "Chairperson" to "Chairman or chairwoman" if for no other reason than that it's shorter. Also, I'm not sure about separating "Board Chair" and "Committee Chair" as those roles are quite similar: on both Boards and Committees, the primary function of a Chair is to preside over a meeting of a deliberative body that decides things by meeting and voting (whether that body is a government committee, a corporate board of directors, a school committee, or whatever). Having a "Chair", and common aspects of a Chair (that the chair has the power to call meetings to order and adjourn them; that the chair sets the agenda; that the chair generally doesn't vote except to break a tie) all stem (I believe) from the popularity of Robert's Rules of Order for parliamentary procedure. So in my view, this use of Chair (board/committee) is one thing, whereas the academic professorship position (or "department chair") is actually a separate type of chair, and then the furniture is something else altogether :-). Note I've updated my !vote per the discussion here. It seems like "Chair (role)" and "Chairperson" may be the "finalists" here? Leviv ich 20:34, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support:
  1. "Chair (position)" (not a good choice per discussion below due to confusion with academic chair)
  2. "Chair (role)" ("Chairperson" is better for reasons stated in WP:NATURAL)
  3. "Chair of the Board" ("Board Chair" suggestion above is shorter and better) or
  4. "Chairperson" <-- Final answer

...in that order. The -man suffix is deprecated in the English language–don't need Google Ngrams to know that, just need to have been alive in the 21 century. "Chair (officer)" isn't the best DAB because, at least in the United States, the Chair of the Board of Directors of a company or organization is not an Officer of the organization (that includes other positions like President, Treasurer, etc., but not Chair or Vice Chair, or Board Member, who are distinct from Officers). So, that might be confusing, and I would suggest a different DAB like "position" or "role". "Chair of the Board" identifies the position/role fairly well. "Chairperson" is better than the current "chairman", but I think is not as common as the simple "chair", as in "Board Chair" or "Chair of the Board of Directors". Leviv ich 01:54, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• "Chair (position)" seems to include the meaning of a "professorship", which is different from the "chairman" role as a presiding official. A professor is simply occupying a "chair" with a particular designation, implying that he/she is being paid from an endowment. Jmar67 (talk) 15:15, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

  Good point. (position) may not be the best choice then. Leviv ich 17:19, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

  After reviewing the continuing discussion here, I've come around to Chairperson being the best choice. "Chairperson" is better than "Chairman" for MOS:GNL reasons, and because the -man suffix is rapidly declining in usage in favor of gender neutral language (police officer, firefighter, etc.). "Chairperson" is better than "Chair (whatever)" for the reasons given in WP:NATURAL. Going with the common gender-neutral name "Chair" breeds confusion with all the other things with the same name, and any disambiguator we choose–"Chair (officer)", "Chair (position)", "Chair (role)"–will have some problems. We can avoid having to decide "what the second word should be" by going with "Chairperson". Our reader will know what we mean when we say "Chairperson", and when they type in "chair" it'll pop up as one of the suggestions. It's the best choice not because it's the most common form of the term, but because all the other options are worse for one reason or another. Leviv ich 05:51, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

• I don't know anything about corporate law, but here's a source that seems to confirm that technically corporate chairs are not always considered "officers". WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 17:34, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - Political correctness gone wild here. I still see and hear chairman more than anything else, even when referring to women. If it ever were to move it would more along the lines of "chairperson," but even that is a bit strange. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support: Primary argument against appears to be "I don't like it. Even arguments about gender neutral versions are along these lines. A google search of "Chairperson" results in 40,800,000 results for me. That hardly appears archaic. A search of google with chair role description brings up many references to chairperson or chair generically. Even the Wikimedia Foundation uses the phrase "Chair". "Chair (role)" or "Chairperson" appear to be good compromises. A compromise for the WP:IDONTLIKEIT people concerned gender erasure could be including a discussion about the use of chairperson vs. chairman, for which there are ample sources that meet WP's standards credibility standards. --LauraHale (talk) 19:13, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

  Unfortunately WP:IDONTLIKEIT cuts both ways. What to one person seems like an innocent change in the language is to another forced politics and linguistic corruption. Conversely to one the natural form of English they have been speaking for 60 years is seen by others as an oppressive attempt to demean all womankind. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:01, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Completely unnecessary. Still the common name in ordinary speech. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:26, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

  Evidence? Or just your opinion? Peter coxhead (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

  Chairman is probably more commonly used than any of the proposed alternatives. The Oxford English dictionary says that while the gender-neutral terms chair and chairperson are accepted in standard English, they're still less common than chairman.

  ...Hold on, Wanda, whose side are you on? Well, here's the thing: the vast majority of committee and board chairs are men. So the fact that chairman is the more popular term does not mean that it is the most appropriate term for an article that is supposed to encompass both men and women. Wikipedia is supposed to be neutral, and that means we should be gender-neutral. Sometimes the most appropriate, inclusive, gender-neutral title for an article is going to be a term that's somewhat less popular than another more biased and gendered term. According to Google ngrams, fireman is more common than firefighter, and yet the Wiki article is titled firefighter. Policeman is more common than police officer but we go with police officer. It's true that we shouldn't just make up a term, or use a very rare neologism, in the name of neutrality. But in this case the proposed alternatives are perfectly standard and accepted English words. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 22:37, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

  This is true to a point. Most companies will use the term chairman for both sexes, but it is certainly within the realm of reason that chairperson is used and becoming more common. However this rfc was to change chairman to "Chair (officer)" and that is not common at all and not likely to be. Hence a big oppose from me above. We also do whatever we can not to disambiguate with parentheses if possible. There is no reason to do that in this case. Also I'm not sure about wikipedia being so neutral... it's always back to consensus. If enough editors say the sun is blue then that's what the article will tell us. If you want neutral then maybe don't start reading President Trump's article, as it's far from even-handed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  I don't know if it's even-handed but it's certainly small-handed. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  Fyunck(click), it isn't necessarily about moving it to Chair (officer). The RM says "Common alternatives are Chair (officer) and Chairperson. Please state your preference when commenting." If you prefer something else, by all means say so. An oppose means a support for Chairman. SarahSV ^(talk) 04:31, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  Which I had already done above. Chairman preferred, chairperson a distant second. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Fyunck(click): If enough editors say the sun is blue then that's what the article will tell us, no absolutely not, since all factual claims need to be sourced if challenged. Article titles aren't subject to sourcing in the same way, which is why we are discussing this, whereas we could not discuss whether to say that the sun is blue, since there are no reliable sources. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  Ah! I presume a naivety of youth. If enough editors don't like your sources they will be dismissed as "unreliable" or "primary" in favour of sources which support the cabal's opinion. If any source that denies the sun is blue is discounted, all sources will be supporting it. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:39, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  Yes, that is the way things tend to work here. A title spelling could have 100 sources spelling it one way and zero to two sources spelling it another way. But if enough editors would rather have it at the un-sourced or low-sourced spelling, that's where it will be. It's just something you learn after more than a decade of editing here. You !vote, you shrug your shoulders, you move on. It's not a big deal, it's just the way things are. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:52, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  It seems to be the case that companies still overwhelmingly use chairman, whereas other organisations variously use chairman, chairperson or chair. The fact is, of course, that chairman has always been used for both men and women (although chairwoman has been seen in the past, mostly in all-female organisations such as the Women's Institute), whereas other terms like policeman and fireman have generally only been used for men, with policewoman and firewoman being used in the past for women, and police officer and firefighter being overwhelmingly used generically today, although men (but not generally women) in those roles are still often referred to as policemen and firemen. It's just one of the many peculiarities of common English language usage that a woman can be a chairman but not a policeman! One size does not fit all in our language. That's just a fact of life. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  I can concede that it is more common and accepted to refer to a woman as a chairman than a woman as a policeman. (On Google Ngrams, I tried comparing "she became a policeman" to "she became a police officer" but it couldn't even find any instances of the former.)

  This is an interesting case. Is chairman the most commonly used word for this concept? Yes. Can you find big corporations or newspapers who use the word chairman to refer to both men and women? Yes. But... is chairman the most common or accepted term for a female chair? I would argue no. According to Google Ngrams, the phrase "she became chair" is more common than "she became chairman". Is the term exclusively male? No. But is it weighted male? Yes. This isn't a completely black or white case, but I'm going to err on the side of inclusivity and gender neutrality and will stick by my vote. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 16:03, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Chair (officer) as failing WP:NATURAL, and no support from sources. support Chairperson as sourced, well used, and completely satisfying the problem. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:13, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support Chairperson per SmokeyJoe. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:44, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
• Relisting note: a couple of things need to be noted in this relist:

Two points:

For the sanity of whoever closes the debate, up to this point five support Chair (officer), fourfive (edit conflict) support Chairperson and five support Chairman. I have removed User:Fyunck(click)'s modification of User:SlimVirgin's original nomination statement because it screwed up the bot. The nominator's statement can't be a block of text with two signatures in except for relist notes and technical request permalinks. Feel free to add it in a comment.

Many thanks, SITH (talk) 15:45, 30 March 2019 (UTC)

More about the relisting note:

Very strange since I've seen that done a thousand times in the past when pertinent info has been missing from the initial listing. Especially when it starts off with choices "A", "B" and "C" and then an additional choice "D" gets added. Has the bot changed this year? Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:30, 30 March 2019 (UTC) @Fyunck(click): Well, now you know better. :-) I think if you leave an entire blank line after the original nom's sig and any relist sigs, then it will work properly. However, it had the effect of a major injection of non-neutral advocacy (whether intended as such or not) to do what you did in this case, as addressed in the Discussion section below. The place for presenting evidence you think is strong and pertinent is in your !vote if it's short, or in an extended discussion section if it's not.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:50, 2 April 2019 (UTC) Next time I'll use a space, I didn't know about that. It was placed to make the rfc neutral as opposed to non-neutral. When listing style guides, Chicago and AP are always at the top of the list. I was shocked to see it missing, so I added it. But now I know to leave a space, thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:10, 3 April 2019 (UTC) Fyunck(click), it's an RM, not an RfC. It doesn't have to be neutral. SarahSV (talk) 04:45, 3 April 2019 (UTC) That rfc was a typo, but I'm not sure I ever said it "had to be neutral." When I saw a listing of MoS's I noticed one of the two biggest missing. I simply thought it would help in the discussion if everyone saw the other big MoS, and being buried in a comment amongst many comments I thought would be worse for helping people decide. That was my purpose in placing it where I did. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:24, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support: I know there's an element of PC-gone-mad to this, but my experience tells me that a chair presides over a meeting. But, aside from anything else, who's saying that the 'wo' hasn't just been omitted from the middle? –Sb2001 00:36, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
• Move to Chairperson per MOS:GNL and WP:GNL (which could also support "Chair (office)"), but more importantly for WP:COMMONNAME (in a gender-neutral context), and for WP:CONSISTENCY with Sportsperson, Spokesperson, etc. "Chair" is business jargon, a shorthand verging on a form of occupational slang. Technically, it's "nouning" of a verb, to chair, which itself is a back-formation from chairman. I think the verb form dates to around the 1980s in semi-common usage, though I can find examples of it back to the 1960s, and I am old enough I remember businesswomen objecting to both it and the noun form contemplated here as too ham-handed an attempt at gender neutrality, well into the 1990s (e.g. Esther Dyson in her tenure as the head of the Electronic Frontier Foundation's board refused to be called chair on her business cards ("I'm not a piece of furniture" was the reason she gave).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Some etymological and usage discussion:

@SMcCandlish: the OED gives the earliest example of the verb chair in the sense of directing a meeting as 1921. Interestingly, chairman as a verb is apparently earlier, dated to 1888, although it doesn't seem to be used this way now. Of course what people objected to in the 1990s isn't necessarily what they object to now. I can think of a number of well established contemporary usages that were opposed at first (some by me too); holding back the tide of language change is rarely successful. Peter coxhead (talk) 09:25, 2 April 2019 (UTC) Yeah, I figured the verb usage went back a ways, at least spottily. I agree with you on the linguistic change point, of course, but I don't think this is one; use of "chair" in the "chair (office[r])" sense was already well established by the 1990s, but was then as now a form of business jargon. This hasn't actually changed since at least the 1980s (even if concern about GNL has gone up). It's a register of usage matter, really. "Chair" as noun referring to a person or their role isn't understood by everyone, being a bit buzzwordy, while "chairperson" is understood by all competent English speakers. PS: While Chicago apparently found (but didn't cite) usage of "chair" in this particular noun sense to the 17th c., it was certainly not common until at least the 1960s. I would also bet money that they're conflating academic usage (which is quite old) with corporate usage, which would be an error. The academic sense has a different origin, and some academic bodies, in that sense of "chair", can have more than one, endowed by particular patrons. They're "chairs at the table", as it were. A lot of institutions do use chair[foo] as a hierarchical departmental title, though, mirroring commercial use. I wouldn't be surprised if some institutions use both senses, like a "Chair[foo] of the Anthropology Department", plus also something like a "Jane X. Doe Distinguished Chair of Ethnology" endowment. I'm not sure institutions have a lot of control over how endowments are named ("beggars can't be choosers").  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:50, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support per WP:GNL. Chairperson first, Chair (office(r)) second. More inclusive, attested as fine English in sources and style guides, better usage overall for WP's purposes. Dohn joe (talk) 19:34, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
  • WP:GNL is an essay. This vote does not state a rationale compatible with Wikipedia:Article titles policy. -- Netoholic @ 03:49, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Seconded. WP:GNL means nothing... an essay can be a view of one person. Even wikipedia guidelines get tossed by consensus in areas where they are too narrow or too general to cope with a situation. Essays mean very little. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:46, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
    • A rationale that relies on a policy (and not a guideline or essay) is that gender-non-neutral language is, well, non-neutral, in violation of WP:NPOV. It says specifically for titles that neutral terms are generally preferable. It adds this must be balanced against clarity but it's hard to see a clarity issue with a widely accepted and understood term like chairperson. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 04:51, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

    Also an essay: Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid on discussion pages#That's only a guideline, proposal or essay. Leviv ich 05:15, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

This is true that saying it's an essay is much easier than writing it out over and over. But many see these WP:GNL links and think it means something special, so pointing that out for clarity is important. The vote by essay rational is fine to use, but it's no better than when someone posts, "Support because blah blah blah" and the next editor writes "Support as per above." Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:47, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• Reiterating my point above, I strongly oppose any form of parenthetical disambiguation, which is completely unnecessary when many good terms exist. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:01, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
• Rename to Chairperson per Levivich and SMcCandlish above and per Spokesperson, which has much the same issues. This will avoid all the problems of disambiguation tags. Timrollpickering (Talk) 17:54, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose A quarter of the page deals with the gender specific problems of the term so any political correctness needs can be largely dealt with in this section. The term is for a title that has historical and topical significance. If we changed the title of the article then the section on terminology would be very difficult to rewrite. We couldn't say chariman is outdated and has been largely replaced by chairperson or chair because this is not supported by any sources. If this PC road is to be taken then what do we do about Alderman or Tallyman or Ombudsman or Foreman and all the other titles such as Caveman Coachman Showman Crewman Chessman. I undersatnd the need to close the gap but this is political correctness gone too far. Dom from Paris (talk) 18:05, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
• Support for any gender-neutral name, with preference for Chairperson, then Chair (role), then Chair (office). I think MOS:GNL outweighs WP:COMMONNAME in this case. Recognizability is one of the five pillars, two others are precision and clarity. MOS:GNL gives specific examples of what shouldn't it shouldn't apply to: titles of works, or things that are in fact single-gendered. It noticeably doesn't say "Applies unless the gendered version is more common". WP:GNL I think also supports this interpretation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Safrolic (talk • contribs) 04:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Forcing changes on the language for political reasons decreases recognizability, precision and clarity. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 09:04, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support a move to a more gender-neutral alternative. Chairperson would be naturally disambiguated (and hardly surprising to any viewer), but is also probably the rarest form. I do dispute the claim that "chair" or "chairperson" is some sort of an anomaly. Given that this topic includes all sorts of very different offices (is the chair of a board of directors really that similar to the chair of a search committee?) I'd note that there are a wide variety of terms used, with different de facto standards in different places/circumstances. For example, at least in American academia, which fetishizes committees for everything, the head of the committee is pretty much always just the "chair," regardless of gender. Note that this is a very different meaning from academic chairs, which are a different subject for a different article.Just a Rube (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. "Chairman" is clearly the common name. Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language is not an article-naming policy, it is just a guideline for article text, so it cannot override our official article-naming policies at WP:COMMONNAME, and Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language is just an essay, not a Wikipedia policy or even a guideline, so it also cannot override our article-naming policies. The article naming policy is very clear here. It's also bad article naming convention to be introducing a parenthetical disambiguation into an article's title where one is not needed.Rreagan007 (talk) 22:30, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: At the time of relisting, seven are in favour of the original proposal, with arguments mostly being based on guideline Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language and essay Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language, nine are in favour of Chairperson due to the same reasons as the original proposal but favour the alternative per policy Wikipedia:Article titles#Disambiguation, eight are in favour of Chairman, with arguments mostly being based on policy Wikipedia:Article titles#Use commonly recognizable names. A further two users have expressed support for a gender-neutral option but not expressed which they prefer. Many thanks.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SITH (talk) 13:59, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• Support because chairman is not gender-neutral. I was about to agree with Chairperson, but Just a Rube brings up a good point that I recognize chair being used more in certain capacities. It doesn't matter to me which is used... redirects exist. Rhinopias (talk) 18:21, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Ranked choice survey

This discussion has now been relisted twice, and it looks like there is an 18-8 majority in favor of moving, it's just a matter of choosing the target. How about a quick ranked-choice survey to figure this out? Editors can list their choices in order of preference, and a closer can "knock out" the least-popular choices until there's a winner. If editors think this is a bad idea, please feel free to delete/revert this edit. If editors think this is a good idea, maybe we should ping all discussion participants here? To make it easy on the closer, I suggest we just indicate numbers here, and keep discussion/arguments in the discussion section below. Thanks, Leviv ich 16:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Options

1. Chairman
2. Chair (officer)
3. Chair (role)
4. Chairperson

Votes

• 4, 3, 2, 1. Leviv ich 16:02, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
• 1, 4, 3, 2. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 16:20, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
• 4, 3, 2, 1. I've flip-flopped on which gender-neutral term I prefer but I think I will land on chairperson as my final answer, after weighing all the relevant guidelines, even though chair is the more common term. (And even though I'd never personally use the word chairperson. Chair is more elegant! Not that personal preference is very relevant.) Chair (officer) isn't ideal because we've determined that board chairs are sometimes not technically considered officers. Chairman is not gender neutral. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:53, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
• 1, 3, 2, 4 - Anything after #1 doesn't matter all that much. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:04, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• 4 1 3 2, seeing as we are voting! —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:43, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

A better voting method is to score each option:

Chairperson: 8/10. Used. Used in quality sources. NATURAL.

Chairman: 7/10. Used in quality sources, is the original term, linguistic construction issues don’t hold up.

Chair (role): 5/10. Ok, works, fails NATURAL.

Chair (officer): 2/10. Like role, but adds an authoritarian value judgement, and in many cases is in conflict with the meaning of an “officer”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:48, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• Note - not that it's a horrible idea, but I take issue with someone saying to the closer..."18-8 majority in favor of moving, it's just a matter of choosing the target." That is bias right off the bat. You could just have easily said that "Keeping at Chairman leads in the voting" even though this is not a vote. That whole first sentence should be removed as unnecessary. Plus no closer is supposed to use ranking behind their reasoning... they are supposed to use strength of argument even if it's 3 against 10. A ping should probably also be given to all those who participated in the last rm. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:04, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Chairperson leads the voting with nine; Chairman has eight. Ranked choice can help the closer figure out consensus; it's up to the closer how to weigh the various comments and arguments. I have no objection if you want to ping anyone; I didn't want to do it so as not to be seen as canvassing, since I wasn't even sure if people thought this exercise was helpful. Leviv ich 22:29, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

• 1, 3, 4, 2. Jmar67 (talk) 22:55, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
• 2, 4, 3, 1. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:30, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NOTVOTE. This poll is an end-run around RM and WP:Consensus process. Closer should close as "no consensus" per WP:RMCI because there clearly is none. We don't just keep litigating. Levivich's claim of an 18-8 in favor of moving creates an unresolvable bias in this out-of-policy "ranked voting" process. -- Netoholic @ 08:50, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
  • There's a consensus for a gender neutral title and so a closing admin should be moving the article - it's clear supporters of one prefer another to the current form. Sticking to the current title would be the worst of outcomes. Timrollpickering (Talk) 13:40, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
• 4, 3, 2, 1. Timrollpickering (Talk) 13:40, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
• 1, 4, 3, 2. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:46, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• A lot of suggested Google Ngrams above, but I think this one using the short phrase "elected chair---" is reliable as it eliminates references to furniture and anything else that might be outside the scope of this topic. -- Netoholic @ 17:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  Ngrams' most recent material is a decade old. We need to use it with caution. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:45, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  Usage in the last 10 years, even if radically different, does not outweigh usage of over a hundred years. Wikipedia is not about WP:NEOLOGISMS. Ngrams is one of the most valuable tools (if used correctly) for demonstrating common usage. It is broad evidence, where otherwise we are left, as the supporters of this have done, to cherry-pick style guides and such. -- Netoholic @ 19:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  Widespread language changes, even rather new ones, should be reflected in wikipedia. If something sticks around and is not just some meme (e.g., yeet), then we should reflect that. We use gender inclusive terms for many other occupations and positions as language around them has changed. That's not to say all which occupations have changed, as you noted below, but when they do we should update a well. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  Netoholic, if we didn't rely on modern usage, we'd still be using lots of racist language. You can see the discomfort with the title in the regular attempts on talk to question it. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:17, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  "Chairman" is neither gender-inclusive nor -exclusive. Its just a word as it exists in the language, and the most common word used to describe this topic. I think many of you are just guessing (hoping?) that the usage has changed significantly in the past 10 years, but you're not doing anything to provide evidence that it has beyond cherry-picking a couple articles and a few style guides which disagree a lot amongst themselves and are not sources for how widespread usage is, just how its used in specific circumstances. -- Netoholic @ 20:24, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  Netoholic, the reason it doesn't feel gender-exclusive to you is that you don't belong to an excluded gender. Gender is invisible to the gender that sees itself and its language as the default. But the word excludes me. I felt a sense of shock, an actual jolt, when I found this page.

  Imagine if the standard term had started out as "Chair (whites only)". Over time other people came to be accepted as chairs too, but some diehards refused to drop "whites only" from the title, so when a black person becomes chair, they have to be called "Chair (whites only, but this one's black)". That's how absurd "Madam Chairman" sounds to me. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:42, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  @SlimVirgin: - I'm curious what gender you guess I am... and why you are dismissing my participation here based on that ramifications of that guess. Beyond that, I should point out that your emotional state is not part of the Wikipedia titling guidelines. Neither is strawmanning some equivalence to racism, nor the "absurdity" that you think is involved. -- Netoholic @ 20:51, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  @Netoholic: You said that chairman is "neither gender-inclusive nor -exclusive". However, it is taken that way today, regardless of the etymological basis of the word. The MoS's I linked above generally point to this fact for their support of the gender-inclusive "chair" title. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

  @EvergreenFir: - "taken that way today" has no basis in any impartial measure of usage - its just your opinion or limited perspective. Just repeating that claim over and over again will not make it true. -- Netoholic @ 01:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

  Not just my opinion... [2], [3], [4], [5], [6]... EvergreenFir (talk) 01:43, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• Note that Wikipedia uses firefighter not fireman, police officer not policeman, mail carrier not mailman, and human not man. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:29, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

  Yes, but note that those are NOT "fireperson", "policeperson", or "mailperson". You're cherry-picking to try and make your point - why have you not listed other occupation articles like journeyman, master craftsman, doorman, showman, marksman, milkman, helmsman, and more. These are not named that way because they are restricted to males, but because this is simply how English works. -- Netoholic @ 18:51, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• The American Heritage Dictionary's usage note on chairman is a worthwhile read. It says that Words that end with the element -man ...sometimes generate controversy because they are considered sexist by some people...This ongoing controversy is evident from our usage surveys. It says that its usage panel (which it describes as a a group of nearly 200 prominent scholars, creative writers, journalists, diplomats, etc.) was asked to look at a sentence that referred to a woman as a chairman. 57 percent accepted the sentence, which is a majority, but which means a large portion of the panel did not accept it. It goes on to say: For writers interested in avoiding -man compounds that have synonyms, alternatives include compounds employing -woman and -person, as in chairwoman and spokesperson, and more inclusive terms that avoid the gender-marked element entirely, such as chair for chairman, letter carrier for mailman, and first-year student for freshman.

To me, the word Chairman is obviously similar to the generic he, which the MOS asks us to avoid. Both are in wide use but both are clearly controversial and considered by many people to be exclusionary. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 00:33, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Its not at all similar to he and stating "To me" points to your lack of understanding that your personal opinion doesn't matter. He is specifically a male-referencing pronoun. "Chairman" is gender-neutral. If your claim is that just because a compound word uses "-man" makes it exclusive to males, then I wonder what you think of the word woman. Though, I should thank you for adding another data point (American Heritage Dictionary) to the stack of evidence that points to "chairman" being the WP:COMMONNAME. -- Netoholic @ 01:24, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

And I should thank you for reminding me that it's often better not to hedge. I've stricken "to me" from the post. :) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 01:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary survey is from 15 years ago. We need to know what style books recommend now, which is why I referred to the Chicago Manual of Style, 2017, 5.250, p. 318: "chair; chairman; chairwoman; chairperson. Chair is widely regarded as the best gender-neutral choice. Since the mid-seventeenth century, chair has referred to an office of authority." That is the latest edition of an authoritative style guide.

The American Heritage Dictionary also refers to chair as in officer: "A person who holds an office or a position of authority, such as one who presides over a meeting or administers a department of instruction at a college; a chairperson." SarahSV ^(talk) 01:59, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Here is a very important takeaway you both seem to be missing: In the 2004 survey ... 57 percent accepted Emily Owen, chairman of the mayor's task force, issued a statement assuring residents that their views would be solicited, a percentage that was actually higher than the 48 percent in the 1988 survey. This means that according to AHD, the trend is actually going the opposite of the direction that you think it should. -- Netoholic @ 04:56, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Regardless, in either case a large portion of the expert panel wouldn't accept a woman being described as chairman as correct. (43% wouldn't accept it in 2004 and 52% wouldn't in 1988.) (For comparison, in 2004 95% of the panel accepted a sentence where a woman was described with the -man word unsportsmanlike.) This undercuts the claim that chairman is a gender neutral word. WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 14:11, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

• NOTE on deleted AP Style Guide - This was removed from the top of the RM. AP Manual of Style - AP Style holds that you should not use coined words such as “chairperson” or “spokesperson” in regular text. Instead, use “chairman” or “spokesman” if referring to a man or the office in general. Use “chairwoman” if referring to a woman. Or, if applicable, use a neutral word such as “leader” or “representative.” Use “chairperson” or similar coinage only in direct quotations or when it is the formal description for an office. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:35, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

  I agree with the deletion. WP is not written in news style as a matter of clear policy. Virtually nothing in our own Manual of Style is derived from AP Stylebook, which isn't even consistent with other news style guides, and is for a style of writing with almost nothing in common with an encyclopedia (except, perhaps, when compared to a comic book). While its advice on this isn't entirely terrible, it's intended for lowest-common-denominator reading in rapidly-scanned and rather imprecise material (aimed at getting a story's gist across in a few seconds, not at providing reliable reference material). Many would object to defaulting to "chairman". AP's apparent feeling that -person constructions are a bit formalistic isn't any kind of problem in an encyclopedia. I'll also bet real money that this advice in AP Stylebook will not last more than another couple of years, because they've otherwise shifted strongly toward gender neutrality. (Indeed, pretty much the only thing MoS got from AP was the general gist of how to do – or, often, avoid – pronouns for the transgendered. More academic style guides like Chicago and New Hart's have much slower publication cycles and were not yet offering a solution to this at the time when MoS needed one, so we cribbed (in spirt, not wording) from AP, and Chicago and NH eventually included the same approach.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:04, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

• To me the real issue is applying MOS:GNL as expanded at Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language. Those who oppose the move never seem to directly address this issue. What has been shown is that:
  • "Chair" is widely used, even if less so than "chairman", so is a potential title.
  • "Chairman" is not gender-neutral according to a significant number of style guides, although still recommended by many others.
  • "Chairman" is not gender-neutral when searches combine the word with an explicit indicator of gender, such as "she".

Opponents of a move need to show that using "chairman" is consistent with MOS:GNL or that a title like "Chair (office[r])" would not be. Peter coxhead (talk) 17:44, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Or chairperson. The entire -person style is now common (sportsperson, spokesperson, businessperson, etc) for specific constructions, though of course alternatives are common (firefighter, news anchor) for -man replacements where a -person version has no currency (*fireperson, news *anchorperson).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:50, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

• Does anyone feel that WP:NPOVNAME might apply here, if "chairman" can be demonstrated to be the prevalent form? Jmar67 (talk) 20:16, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I don't think that this is a matter of neutrality in the sense of there being opposed views of what is involved in chairing meetings or boards, so that there are possible titles that support or oppose there being such an office. It's a matter of whether "chairman" meets the test of MOS:GNL. I notice that few "MOS regulars" seem to be contributing here. I think it would be useful if they did. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:18, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
  • "Chairman" is demonstrably, and resoundingly, the most prevalent form. "Chair" is 2nd and "Chairperson" is minuscule 3rd, both on the decline as of the most recent real data we have. "Chairman" is the widely-accepted gender-neutral word to describe this position. -- Netoholic @ 23:53, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
    • No-one has disputed that "chairman" is the most commonly used (if only because the majority of chairs of major corporations are men); this is not the issue. The issue is whether it is sufficiently gender-neutral to satisfy MOS:GNL, and I do not believe that this has been shown, and it certainly cannot be shown by counts of usage. It should be based on reference to recent manuals of style; "recent" because usage is still changing with respect to gender neutrality. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:26, 31 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Yeah, this was covered above already. Because most chair[person]s are male, "chairman" is always going to lead by a wide margin.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:50, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
• For heaven's sake no more relists please I support chairperson but if it doesn't happen, don't keep relisting. 22:55, 30 March 2019 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 08:21, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
• As I noted in an earlier post, I think a compromise that emphasizes the role and not the person might be in order at this point. An article title such as "Chair (role)" or "Chair (office of authority)" seems like the best solution as opposed to attempting to find a single synonym for "chairman" that everyone can agree on. Jmar67 (talk) 10:06, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

  I agree. There's a considerable literature on how to chair meetings, for example, including issues such as the chair's casting vote, which would be better accomodated at an article on the role than on the person, whatever they are called. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:28, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

  I do not agree. King (role)? President (office of authority)?! The exact position that this article is about is still called Chairman, overwhelmingly. We should leave it at that, with appropriate variations givenin the text. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:13, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

  But unlike these offices, there's a specific set of activities covered by "chairing", and these are currently very poorly covered in the article. We have lots of articles at the activity rather than the actor, like Cooking or Skiing, so why not an article at "Chairing"? It avoids any suggestion of gender bias. I suppose there could be a different article, but this seems overkill to me. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:25, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

  A chairperson often has additional roles in an organisation than just chairing the meetings, though there is clearly a problem when such a big chunk of the article is taken up with justifying the current title. (There's also a bit too much of taking one manual, and one which appears to be mainly a US thing at that, as authoritative on all matters, but it's always a struggle to counter that when here practice is all over the place and there doesn't seem to be any general studies of the mess, let alone a widely respected manual.) Timrollpickering (Talk) 18:20, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

• Not that anyone has actually sided with my proposal to split the article into "board chair" and "committee chair", but I did realize there's at least one exception to my idea that corporate chairs usually preside over a "board" and government chairs a "committee": the Chair of the Federal Reserve presides over a "board of governors". That makes my proposal to split the article less attractive. (Incidentally, I'll note that the article on Janet Yellen, the first woman to be federal reserve chair, refers to her as a chair and not a chairman. :) WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 18:27, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oxford A–Z or English Usage (2nd ed, Jeremy Butterfield, 2013, Oxford U. Pr.): "It is also interesting that the most widely used [-person] forms, according to the [Oxford English Corpus], namely spokesperson and chairperson, come from the area of public life and are often used in official and news documents. Even so, spokesperson in the Corpus is about a quarter as frequent as spokesman, and slightly less frequent thatn spokeswoman, but this could be because these terms are commonly used of a specific person, where there is felt to be less need to be gender-neutral." It lists spokesperson as the most common -person form, and -chairperson second. [7]  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:35, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
• Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage (4th ed, Jeremy Butterfield and H. W. Fowler, 2015, Oxford U. Pr.): "The prevailing orthodoxy suggests, at least in written language, that ... a gender-neutral form should be used, unless the sex of the person concerned is relevant .... The whole area is a potential minefield, but there are a number of unsexed designations which are now established if one wishes to use them and so avoid being labelled an unreconstructed sexist or quaintly last-century." Third in the list (after "bartender" and "businessperson" is "chairperson", though "chair" is also listed (along, later, with salesperson, spokesperson, sportsperson, etc.). [8]  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  00:35, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised

I'm surprised that nobody has offered this as a reference or source of guidance. It is a standard work for deliberative assemblies and is often used for other types of organizations. It contains quite a bit of specific and authoritative information about the presiding officer (usually chairman), his or her title and term of address, including the chair, etc. The editors and publishers have been keeping current on these matters since 1876, and are probably way ahead of unvetted and unpaid encyclopedia editors such as myself. I am working from the 10th edition from 2000, but there is a newer one from 2011. Lou Sander (talk) 21:21, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Is that standard globally or in one country? The article on it, this and others at a glance suggest it's mainly a US thing and doesn't have much use, let alone authoritative respect, in other countries. Even if Palgrave's Chairman's Handbook was still in print I doubt it would be taken as definitive all round. Timrollpickering (Talk) 22:14, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

It's one source that should be in the article, though. Citrine's ABC of Chairmanship, originally published in 1939, latest publication 2016 I think, has been influential in the UK, well outside its original Labour movement context. (I've used it myself in chairing meetings of school governors as well as university committees.) The point is that there is a literature on how to chair meetings, which should be covered. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:48, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Are you sure you wouldn't prefer to rephrase that as "ABC of Chairpersonship" or "ABC of Chairship"? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:57, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

It was written in 1939; the copy I have was published in 1945. So I'm sure that The Rt. Hon. Sir Walter Citrine K.B.E. did not consider gender neutral language to be an issue. But we do now. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:03, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Next you’ll tell me I shouldn’t use the word colored even though it’s in the NAACP’s name! WanderingWanda (they/them) (t/c) 22:16, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

I thought you were quoting the latest version published in 2016. That's certainly how yours of 21:48 reads. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:21, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I see; sorry that it wasn't clear. I wrote "latest publication" deliberately, rather than, say, "latest version", because I don't know if any changes have been made. My intended point was that a book in print from 1939 to 2016 has a reasonable claim to be a notable source on the subject of chairing meetings, as indeed does the US Roberts book. Peter coxhead (talk) 10:23, 7 April 2019 (UTC)