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November 17

Gensan Flying Corps

Misawa Air Base says:

By early 1941, the Gensan Flying Corps trained at Misawa.

What is the the Gensan Flying Corps? I tried googling it, but all the results are from the Misawa Air Base Wikipedia article, or copies and mirrors of that article.

Helian James (talk) 00:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eleventh Air Fleet 22nd Air Flotilla flying 48 Mitsubishi G3M, 6 Mitsubishi Ki-15, and 36 Mitsubishi A6M Masatake Okumiya; Jiro Horikoshi (1991). Zero!. p. 31-2. They sank Prince of Wales and Repulse (ibid. pp. 67-95) fiveby(zero) 01:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC) Err, nevermind there is an article Genzan Air Group. fiveby(zero) 01:17, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have added the link to Genzan Air Group in the text mentioned at Miwasa air base article. Alexcalamaro (talk) 06:12, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any reason for retaining the "Gensan" spelling in this article? As far as I can tell, it's the only instance in Wikipedia of this spelling (in this context) – all other mentions of the Air Group use Genzan. It's not even following the spelling of a cited source. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.47.60 (talk) 11:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is rendaku and not variant On'yomi reading or romanization so should be 'Genzan' everywhere? fiveby(zero) 16:30, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, everyone! Helian James (talk) 22:25, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

In 2023, who will be the most liberal Republicans in the US House of Representatives?

In the 2021-2022 US Senate, Joe Manchin had an extraordinary amount of amount of power because the Democrats only held the Senate by the narrowest of margins and he is by far the most conservative Democrat in the Senate. If Manchin idn't like a measure, that measure would not pass.

So, if we can expect the same phenomenon in the House next year because this time Republicans will hold only the narrowest majority, who will be the Joe Manchins of the House--i.e., the most liberal Republicans who the GOP caucus will need to bring on board in order to get anything done. Just looking for a few names we should keep our eye on.

And I get that these days there are arguably no truly "liberal" Republicans, I am just speaking in relative terms. 2600:4040:9147:3700:9C00:E575:16CF:7D3 (talk) 13:50, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Playing around with voteview, which my understanding is ranks ideologies based on how frequently people vote with their party, gives us Brian Fitzpatrick and Chris Smith, both of whom were re-elected. Some others were not re-elected. John Katko, for instance, did not run and was replaced by Brandon Williams, though it remains to be seen how liberal Williams will vote. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:22, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bloomberg recently wrote about the "Manchin of the house" moderates and highlighted Marc Molinaro who flipped a district as promising to "leverage" his power as a moderate. Another flipped districts of note is that represented by Mike Lawler. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:26, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"the most liberal Republicans who the GOP caucus will need to bring on board in order to get anything done." That is not a thing, afaict. The GOP has much more effective party discipline than the Dems have. Look up the term "rotating villain". Manchin is a classic example, but it is mostly a Dem phenomenon. 2601:648:8201:5E50:0:0:0:DD22 (talk) 18:08, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You could be right, but we shall soon see! 2600:4040:9147:3700:1D0C:BC6E:E7CD:D99A (talk) 19:40, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also, maybe you're right that it isn't currently a thing, but maybe it *will* be a thing simply due to human nature. It would be hard to resist the temptation of obtaining the kind of power and media attention Joe Manchin had, simply by being an occasional contrarian. That member of congress would immediately be booked on every Sunday show every week. Of course, it could only happen it they were in a very safe, moderate district that wouldn't try to punish such a contrarian. 2600:4040:9147:3700:1D0C:BC6E:E7CD:D99A (talk) 19:48, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the two parties are different in that regard. The GOP and its voters are willing to throw out their own incumbents who misbehave, even if the party temporarily loses seats or a majority, figuring they can tough it out til they get the seats back later. That is how the Tea Party became so powerful, by throwing out more moderate GOP incumbents. Some got replaced by right wing Republicans and some got replaced by Democrats, but either way, the GOP moved to the right. The Democrats OTOH run on the premise that they represent the vulnerable, so they will defend their worst incumbents because if they lose their majority then OMG, puppies will die!!1! The GOP will overturn Roe v. Wade!!1! (I guess that one is used up now). Of course that only works if the majority is quite thin so it can be presented as fragile. They accidentally got a huge majority in 2008 (Obama's first term) so they had to take various measures to get rid of it. Their big villain then was Baucus rather than Manchin, but it worked out the same way. 2601:648:8201:5E50:0:0:0:DD22 (talk) 20:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Tea Party became a thing because the Democratic Party moved right first and the Republican party moved further right in response. See New Democrats; where we see the party under Bill Clinton abandoned traditional left-leaning values and adopted traditional right-wing values such as "being tough on crime" and "lowering taxes" and "reducing government spending" and "forcing people to get jobs in order to stay on government benefits". That sort of stuff came first from the Democratic party, and in response, the Republican party had to move further right to take up even more extremist hard-right ideologies in order to differentiate themselves from the Democrats in order to remain relevant. --Jayron 32 12:53, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Eddie891, thank you! this is very helpful info. 2600:4040:9147:3700:1D0C:BC6E:E7CD:D99A (talk) 19:41, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to know who the most liberal Republican or the most conservative Democrat is, then rather than checking how often they vote with their own party, you have to check how often they vote with the other party. 2601:648:8201:5E50:0:0:0:DD22 (talk) 22:21, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Aka: RINO? 136.56.52.157 (talk) 08:18, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Those should be functionally the same, especially in this day and age where votes are almost all on party lines. To not vote with one's party is to vote against. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

November 18

Distinguishing a w sound from a kiss

The sound of English w and the kiss are made with the same mouth position. Yet, they sound so different. Why?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:03, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Phonetics is the branch of linguistics that deals with the physical production of sounds. Phoneticians generally classify sounds in several ways:

Place of articulation
Manner of articulation
Tertiary sound properties, such as voicing and aspiration.

Specifically in the case of your two sounds, they have the similar place of articulation, but not the same manner of articulation. Specifically, the English "W" is a Voiced labial–velar approximant whereas the usual "kiss" sound is something like a Tenuis bilabial click. They reason why they feel similar to you is that they both are labial (involving the lips). The W sound, however, has a moving tongue that also partially restricts the airway near the soft palate (velum). Because there are two places of articulation (at the lips and at the velum) it is not a bilabial sound, it is a labial-velar sound. --Jayron 32 18:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Soviet woman

I remember reading an article here on Wikipedia that mentioned a Russian woman who partecipated to high-level Nazi-Soviet diplomatic talks, which was quite unusual at the time. Do you have an idea who I am talking about? Thank you! 195.62.160.60 (talk) 17:38, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Alexandra Kollontai? fiveby(zero) 17:51, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If not her, Wikipedia has an category titled Category:Soviet women in politics. --Jayron 32 18:45, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't seem to be her, or at least her page doesn't mention Nazi-Soviet talks. I remember reading it in an article about an important official encounter between German and Soviet "diplomats" (a very high-level one, like the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact) and I recall it was written that she made some comments about the bolshevization of Germany. It wasn't a biographical page. I already tried perusing a few categories about Soviet women but with no avail. I hope this helps! --195.62.160.60 (talk) 07:38, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Impeachment of VP in the USA - Question 1

banned user

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Let's say that, hypothetically, the VP of the USA gets impeached (by the House). Then, the trial moves to the Senate. At some point, does the VP have to "recuse" himself or herself from the proceedings? Or is the VP -- the one under impeachment -- still able to cast a vote? Or a tie-breaking vote? At that point ... during a trial in the Senate ... is the VP still considered a "voting member" of the Senate? Or no longer? (Assuming the VP can only vote in a tie-breaking scenario?) Where is this addressed in the Constitution or federal rules/laws? Thanks. 32.209.55.38 (talk) 19:53, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Since a two thirds majority of the Senate is required to convict in an impeachment, the Vice President’s role as a “tie breaker” would not come into play. He/She would not cast a vote. Blueboar (talk) 21:29, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree that the "extra vote" (i.e., the 101st vote) would be inconsequential. But, nonetheless, does it even occur ... or is it barred? In other words: say, we have a tie ... 50/50. That's dispositive that there is no conviction. Understood. But, is there some law that requires a VP vote during a tie? Or some rule/law that -- in the case of impeachment -- the VP cannot vote. Would the official record be 50/50 ... or 51/50? Also, what rule / law / Constitutional clause controls this? Thanks. 32.209.55.38 (talk) 23:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Article 1 section 3 says "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided." That doesn't say the VP has to vote, but what be the point of not voting? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:21, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"What would be the point of not voting?" Could be many things ... conflict of interest; appearance of a conflict of interest; ethics; federal rules, laws, procedures, protocols, etc. Not sure. 32.209.55.38 (talk) 02:27, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not voting would have the same effect as voting "No", since the bill can't move on without a majority. Kind of a vice-presidential "pocket veto". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the Senate is "equally divided" on a question that needs a 2/3 majority, then whether the VP votes yes, no, or doesn't vote at all, has no (immediate) effect on passage — it could only be symbolic. I suppose arguably by the Constitutional text he/she might have the technical right to cast that symbolic vote, but I've never heard of it happening. The common understanding is that the VP vote is there to "break ties", and in a case where you need 2/3, a tie can't be "broken". --Trovatore (talk) 05:21, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It would be interesting to know if such a scenario has ever happened. In general, though, the VP cannot vote unless it's 50-50. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:56, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Impeachment in the USA - Question 2

Assume that this all happens after January 2023, when the new Congress is seated. Scenario 1: Assume that both President Biden and VP Harris get impeached -- and also convicted. At the same time. Who becomes President? Is that Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy? Scenario 2: Assume that just President Biden gets impeached -- and also convicted. VP Harris becomes President. VP Harris then selects a new VP. Correct? The Speaker of the House is not involved in this scenario. Is that correct? Thanks. 32.209.55.38 (talk) 20:00, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Correct… if both positions become vacant at the same time (via death or other removal), the Speaker becomes President. If only the Presidency becomes vacant (via death or removal) the Vice President becomes President, and then appoints a new VP. Blueboar (talk) 21:21, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Technically, the Speaker becomes Acting President (see United States presidential line of succession, fourth paragraph). The appointment of a new VP is subject to confirmation by Congress (this is a fine point I hadn't realized — for every other confirmation of a presidential appointment that I'm aware of, it's just the Senate, but for a new VP it's both houses of Congress). --Trovatore (talk) 22:32, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Trovatore ... is your reply for Scenario 1 or 2? Thanks. 32.209.55.38 (talk) 23:25, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Scenario 1. --Trovatore (talk) 04:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So, in Scenario 1 ... McCarthy becomes the new president (or "acting"). Who is the new VP? That is up to McCarthy to nominate? 32.209.55.38 (talk) 23:27, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes… McCarthy would nominate. Blueboar (talk) 01:41, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

November 19

Former seaports?

Besides Narbonne and Pisa, what are the currently inland cities or towns that were once maritime ports in their histories? StellarHalo (talk) 08:32, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Considering the requirements of containerization there must be thousands of former ports up river from the coast, like London and Manchester. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:13, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not looking for river ports since I specifically stated "maritime". StellarHalo (talk) 09:17, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction between riverports and maritime ports can be a bit vague, as many ports are on estuaries. The most seaward point of the port of Antwerpen is 70 km from sea (measured along the shipping lane), on fresh water, but still very much tidal and reachable by New Panamax ships and Ultra Large Container Vessels. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ostia.
Sleigh (talk) 11:54, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the Middle Ages, Brugge was an important port on a sea inlet in Flanders. It lost its role in the 16th–17th century due to a mixture of natural and political reasons. Later it dug a canal to the sea to make a new port, then added a port directly on the seashore: Zeebrugge.

There must be over 50 towns in the Netherlands that used to be seaports, but are now lakeports as various sea inlets were dammed off and turned into lakes: Amsterdam, Brouwershaven, Elburg, Enkhuizen, Harderwijk, Hellevoetsluis, Lemmer, Spakenburg, Stavoren, Urk, Veere, Volendam, Vollenhove, Yerseke, Zierikzee (OK, the last two are still on tidal salt water, but it's closed off by a storm surge barrier). Amsterdam can still be reached by Panamax ships. Some other former seaports aren't even on a lake any more, as the sea was completely poldered in: Arnemuiden, Blokzijl, Kollum, Kuinre, Leeuwarden.

Special mention for Emmeloord. It used to be a seaport on a small island in the Zuiderzee. The island was almost lost to the sea and abandoned in 1859, the sea was turned into a lake in 1932, the area surrounding the island was made dry land in 1942, but the port is still there (but not reachable by boat). The new town Emmeloord, founded a few kilometres north of the former island in 1943, also has a port, which can be reached via a CEMT-class I canal. PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In the UK, several of the medieval Cinque Ports are now inland. Blueboar (talk) 13:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ephesus in Anatolia was an important port on the Aegean Sea in the Classical period, but the site is now located almost 6 km inland. --Lambiam 18:01, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Articles: river delta, avulsion (river). Rivers tend to transport sediment downstream, which over time piles up and blocks the river outlet, which then "finds" a new path. Ur was where it was because it was a port at the mouth of the Euphrates, complete with canals. Over millennia the Tigris and Euphrates have filled in their delta and extended the coastline quite a ways: see image. Similar goes for other cities in river deltas: Nile delta, Indus delta, Ganges–Brahmaputra delta. The Mississippi River "wants" to jump its outlet into the Atchafalaya River and away from New Orleans. This is currently being prevented by human intervention with the Old River Control Structure. --47.147.118.55 (talk) 21:33, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Lothal was coastal at one point? --Jayron 32 15:17, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thesun.co.uk is talking about which figures or instances?

A September end news report in thesun.co.uk says ".. Figures show soccer stadiums become sex assault hotspots when booze-fuelled crowds flock to big games during tournaments. .." . To which figures or instances reports or studies this statement in the Sun might be referring to ? Bookku (talk) 10:46, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

May be this news report ?

Bookku (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The easiest way for you to find out might be to contact the bylined journalists of those two articles (their names are hyperlinked) and ask them what their sources were. Some editors here might be reluctant to do it for you because, well, it's The Sun (Feh!). {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.47.60 (talk) 16:37, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sharpe, Amy (April 30, 2020). "Qatar 'covering up women being flogged for adultery cases ahead of World Cup'". Daily Mirror. is clearer, but can't find anything at Human Rights Watch specifically mentioning the zina statistics or that Qatar stopped release ~2012, or where they earlier reported 100 convictions/year. fiveby(zero) 17:36, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting from Wikipedia:Potentially unreliable sources#News media:

In general, tabloid newspapers, such as The Sun, Daily Mirror, the Daily Mail ..., should be used with caution, especially if they are making sensational claims.

--Lambiam 06:35, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I know. Crowd abuse is topic of my encyclopedic research and just wanted to crosscheck if any lead or clue becomes available for research. Bookku (talk) 17:48, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Bookku: Have you read Crowds and Power (1960) by Elias Canetti as background material? MinorProphet (talk) 18:14, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

French help needed in crosschecking citation

60th number citation on page 45 of English (translated) title: Revolution Unending: Afghanistan, 1979 to the Present Author Gilles Dorronsoro refers to: '.. Louis Dupree The political use of religion Afghanistan in KH Silvert ..'. I wish to cross verify in Louis Dupree what Louis Dupree themselves say. I couldn't find said title in the name of Louis Dupree in my preliminary search and it makes incomplete case for making request at resource exchange.

Can some one help crosscheck with original French edition 'La révolution afghane' too help confirm referred citation of Louis Dupree is correct one or is there any difference in French version.

Bookku (talk) 13:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which article is this about, Bookku? I can't work out what (if anything) is the title of a Wikipedia article, what is the title of a source, or who is quoting whom and where. ColinFine (talk) 14:16, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

While Dorronsoro's book was published in French, Louis Dupree was an American scholar who only wrote in English, so the quote was was likely translated by Dorronsoro himself if it's present in the book in French. In any case the book is "La Révolution afghane: des Communistes aux tâlebân", Karthala Editions, 2000 ISBN 2-84586-043-9 and is available on Google books (although I'm not sure which citation to search for; Dupree's name only seems to come up in a couple of footnotes). Hope this helps. Xuxl (talk) 14:28, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Xuxl I am looking for details about Louis Dupree's article name and journal details from those footnotes only. I am not getting preview on google books for footnote pages of the French book.

@ColinFine It is not citation number in WP article. I have given citation number from English version of Dorronsoro' book. Because I am looking for those details.

Bookku (talk) 15:58, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is this what you are looking for? Dupree, Louis (1967). "The Political Uses of Religion: Afghanistan". In Silvert, Kalman H. (ed.). Churches and States. fiveby(zero) 16:18, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can only find reviews of Silvert's book online, from scholarly journals, and not the book itself. The original publication date is 1963, and that may not include Dupree's article linked by Fiveby above. World Cat does have evidence of a second edition of the book, dated 1967 [1] which is evidently the one that Dorronsoro used. It seems to be present in many university libraries, so that is what you should look for. (ps Silvert is also listed as Kalman H. Silvert, which could help your searches) Xuxl (talk) 16:38, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This? Dupree, Louis (1963). "Tribalism, Regionalism, and National Oligarchy: Afghanistan". In Silvert, Kalman H. (ed.). Expectant Peoples. fiveby(zero) 17:22, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That last article appears to be a different one, from the original edition. Xuxl (talk) 17:27, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The precise citation in the French edition (2000, ISBN 2-84586-043-9), on page 60,^[2] is:

Louis Duprée, « The Political Use of Religion : Afghanistan », in K. H. Silvert (ed.), Expectant People : Nationalism and Modernization, New York, American Universities Field Staff Report, 1967.

--Lambiam 17:40, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So a citation error by Dorronsoro, and we need to find L'amir envoie également des mollah sunnites pour convertir les Hazâras in either? Off the bat i don't see a mention of Hazaras. fiveby(zero) 18:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Tajiks of Midanam (the fictitious name of a village in northcentral Afghanistan) are primarily Shi'i muslims, but the central government assigned a Sunni mullah to serve the mosque-school compound. Whether or not he served as the “eyes and ears of the king” could not be determined.

(Dupree, 1967, p. 199) is closest is see. fiveby(zero) 18:20, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This must be it. The chapter in which this passage occurs is entitled "The Political Uses of Religion: Afghanistan",^[3] almost identical to the title in Dorronsoro's erroneous citation. Moreover, the book (Churches and States: the Religious Institution and Modernization) has the same publisher (American Universities Field Staff) as Expectant People. --Lambiam 06:24, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiveby I think this archive link is the one for citation title identified by @Lambiam. Louis Dupree's essay, I shall read once more though, is not generating enough confidence in me as of now for my purpose of verification. I will try to go through available reviews and alternate source options.

Thanks to all of you @Xuxl @ColinFine @Fiveby @Lambiam for enthusiastic help.

If some of you may be wondering exactly what I was trying to verify, that is statements in the article Slavery in Afghanistan I was all the way looking how far Gilles Dorronsoro's ".. At the end of 19th century.. . The declaration of jihad by the Amir of Kabul and that of Shi'ite ulema in response, was to justify worst atrocities, and in particular the enslavement of a segment of the Hazara population; Hazaras were sold in the markets of the capital as late as the first years of 20th century. The amir also sent Sunni mullahs to convert them. .." statements confirm with Louis Dupree? May be Dorronsoro is referring to some more sources while referring to underline statements for which I may need to visit the other sources he is referring to. But first I will check up any later/ latest sources helpful.

Thanks Bookku (talk) 08:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

None of the terms "jihad", "enslavement", "slave(s)", "Hazara(s)" and "market(s)" occur in this text by Dupree. --Lambiam 09:40, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I had a doubt in my mind. Bookku (talk) 17:52, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

November 20

USA: Does having 2 bachelor's degree look bad, but not having 2 master's degree?

It's a weasel question. Every once in a while I look at the profiles of top company executives. Been looking at profiles of a real estate companies, lot have a BS in a science major, but a Master's in a non-science major. Every once in a while, I come across profiles with 2 MBAs (different majors in MBAs). For example, 1 MBA could be marketing/finance and another be information systems. But you never see people with 2 bachelor's degree? 67.165.185.178 (talk) 04:56, 20 November 2022 (UTC).[reply]

Some people switch educational tracks after obtaining a Bachelor's degree, aiming to go for a Master's that promises better career opportunities than the one on their old track. If they then only go for (or drop out after) a second Bachelor's, typically one in a "soft" field, they may be seen as less desirable recruits by headhunters for these companies, creating a selection bias. --Lambiam 09:54, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Any kind of degree tells a potential employer that you're willing to put in the effort. And if you're concerned that a second Bachelor's is going to hurt your chances, then you could leave it off your resume. But ultimately it will come down to what the employer is looking for. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:43, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately our article Master's degree is focussed primarily on the UK, with a little about Europe, Brazil and Eurasia, but almost nothing on USA practice, historical or current.

In the UK, a "Masters degree" meant different things at different times in different educational establishments and even different subjects. In some cases it it was actually the first degree awarded, in others it required an additional year or two of study in the relevant field, in yet others it required merely a modest payment after being awarded one's Batchelor's, to get an additional fancy scroll and set of letters: see for example Master's degree#20th century. The requirements have, quite recently (i.e. long after I was at university) been made more standardised and rigorous. This of course does not address the OP's question. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.47.60 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:12, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We're not talking about soup! 2A00:23A8:4C31:5901:F519:1280:4B80:AFE3 (talk) 18:04, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Heh, heh! My bad! But have you never heard of 'alphabet soup'? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.47.60 (talk) 00:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I've ever heard of anyone going back for a second four-year undergraduate course of study to get a second Bachelor's. At the least it's very uncommon, at least in the United States.

What is somewhat more common is getting two Bachelor's degrees at the same time, a dual degree (but this is more ambitious than the more common double major). I have never heard of any employer counting people down for having dual Bachelor's degrees; it takes a level of ambition and commitment that I would expect to be attractive. --Trovatore (talk) 18:20, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's not as unheard of as you're suggesting, since I have done it myself. UK-based (where bachelor degrees are generally 3 year). I got a BSc in physics when I was in my early twenties, and then a BA in music in later life. So I do have 2 bachelor degrees.--Phil Holmes (talk) 08:21, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From personal experience, a second BSc in a related field only requires about an extra year's worth of study. Clarityfiend (talk) 13:22, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I work with several people with multiple bachelors degrees. Literally no one I have ever met has ever said that these were bad people because they did so. --Jayron 32 13:26, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Second degree, okay, but the third degree is a big faux pas. Clarityfiend (talk) 14:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That could be part of the interview process. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:26, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

But "I'm guilty, guilty, guilty—Of Love in the First Degree" PS Never made it to Brit Award for British Single: they were swindled. MinorProphet (talk) 18:42, 23 November 2022 (UTC) [reply]

November 21

H. Bruce Franklin, Robert A. Heinlein

did they become friends after Franklin wrote his book about Heinlein? Just wondering, because they seemed like they could have been respectful opponents during the period of writing of Franklin's book.Rich (talk) 06:15, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They definitely knew each other This says that Heinlein was an active participant in the creation of Franklin's book. --Jayron 32 15:09, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If the info given here is correct, Franklin misrepresented himself to get the interview, and Heinlein's wife reportedly wanted to have nothing to do with him. Their political views seem to be worlds apart. --Lambiam 19:53, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ok, pretty sorry to hear that. but heinlein had been leftist at one time. Don't see why Virginia Heinlein should have to despise a younger man just because he was leftist, when heinlein had also been. Of course there is the alleged misrepresentation. Hope i'm not getting too emotionally involved here.Rich (talk) 23:16, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks that article was also extremely interesting in another way, reminds me what was going on in some ofcthings isaac asimov and heinlein said invtheir novels and essays. Long time ago i had no idea they were arguing to each other, i thought they were just writing stuff. asimov used to say violence was last resort of the incompetent and never solved anything, and heinlein said it did. At the end asimov didn't like heinlein.Rich (talk) 23:33, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

i hate this setup sometimes i twice tried to put this as a reply to jayron, it's a fucking painRich (talk) 23:35, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

H. Bruce Franklin was much further to the left than Heinlein ever was. Heinlein supported Upton Sinclair for governor of California in 1934. Sinclair got kicked out of the Socialist Party for running on the Democratic Party ticket. Franklin, on the other hand was a militant and dogmatic Marxist/Leninist/Maoist for quite a few years. His 1980 book about Heinlein is well worth reading, though. Cullen328 (talk) 23:58, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thanks Rich (talk) 01:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

thanks for your work! couldnt get my reply in the right place.Rich (talk) 01:35, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

crap that's not under jayron again Rich (talk) 01:36, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be using the newish WP:REPLYTOOL. If you want your reply to be to Jayron32, you need to click the reply link next to Jayron32's signature and not the reply link anywhere else. Your reply itself should appear under Jayron32's comment while writing it. If your comment is appearing under someone else's ~~link~~comment while writing it, it will stay there when you hit the reply button to submit it. Nil Einne (talk) 03:20, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For clarity, by 'under' I meant 'under and indented to'. Since Lambiam has already replied to Jayron32, your reply should appear indented to Jayron32 but after the subthread started by Lambiam. Your reply should not appear before Lambiam's comment as it is then chronological out of place and confusing to anyone reading the thread. Please see WP:TALKREPLY and WP:INDENTATION if you're confused by correct indentation practices. This [4] was the correct position and indentation of your comment when replying to Jayron32 given the state of the thread at the time. Nil Einne (talk) 03:50, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If a comment is meant to be directed at one person, I generally use the {{ping}} tool. If the comment is just a general statement for all, as part of the flow of the discussion, then I don't. --Jayron 32 12:10, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Female American author of books about religion and spirituality

Good morning from Italy, I would like to find the name of an American woman who wrote some books about religious figures (e.g. Jesus, Mary, and so on) and spirituality but without a religious fervour and an interest in Eastern philosophy. Could you please help me? Thanks in advance.-- Carnby (talk) 07:38, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid your question is hopelessly vague. Unless you can supply more specific information, you might want to look through our list of over 200 women religious writers. Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:29, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Beth Moore? She's among the most well known American female writer of Christian popular texts, mostly exegesis and apologetics. --Jayron 32 15:13, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Carnby -- the most prominent semi-scholarly English-speaking woman writer on world religions in recent decades is Karen Armstrong, though she's not American... AnonMoos (talk) 15:45, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

November 22

Identity of an anthology editor

I have just added a section, with query, to the Talk page of the article Michael ffolkes, which I repeat below in case anyone here wants a crack at it.

In the ISFDB (not, I agree, a Reliable source), Brian Davis / Michael Ffolkes (the latter thus spelled there) is identified as the Brian Davis who edited the science fiction reprint anthology The Old Masters (New English Library paperback original September 1970): its Preface is bylined G. B. Davis. The same individual (presumably) edited the collection The Best of Murray Leinster (Corgi paperback original December 1976, selection © G. B. Davis.) (I have copies of both books.)

I have seen no positive evidence that this Brian Davis actually was the same individual as the one also known as Michael ffolkes. It may (or may not) be significant that the NEL volume has b/w illustrations "specially drawn for this collection by Terry Diggins", which are not signed. (If this editor Davis was ffolkes, it would seem natural for him to have provided the illustrations: they are not suggestive to me of his usual style, but certainly within his capability if he wanted to conceal the connection and attribute them to "Diggins".)

Can anyone shed further light? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.47.60 (talk) 08:31, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

VIAF 206130040 and Template:WorldCat author, but we are getting a Davis, Brian Leigh from SUDOC 122651790 and no "G. B." fiveby(zero) 15:28, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Brian" is a fairly common given name, and "Davis" an even more common surname, so they were most likely just coincidental namesakes. I can find nothing connecting the first initial "G." to the cartoonist, and also nothing suggesting the latter might have had an interest in science fiction. Brian Davis / Michael ffolkes had, by his own admission, some opinions that were "outrageously right-wing". Does this sound like a possible characteristic of the G. B. Davis who penned the Introduction section of the British collection The Best of Murray Leinster? --Lambiam 16:50, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, and I too suspect that the similarity of names is coincidental and ISFDB is wrong on this point. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.217.47.60 (talk) 17:12, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Knowledge of outside during Japan's closure

During the era of Japanese history when the country was closed, how much did normal (non-governmental) people know about the outside world? סשס Grimmchild. He/him, probably 13:30, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The policy is known as Sakoku. While the Wikipedia article doesn't discuss the effects of the policy on average Japanese people, perhaps knowing the term will help your research in areas outside of Wikipedia. --Jayron 32 13:38, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for you helpful and very speedy reply! סשס Grimmchild. He/him, probably 13:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Linked in that article is Rangaku, the study of Western knowledge, which the article says was published and widely disseminated amongst Japan's large urban population. Alansplodge (talk) 13:49, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Thanks for your help :) סשס Grimmchild. He/him, probably 13:53, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note that the topics disseminated excluded Western philosophical and political ideas. --Lambiam 14:39, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but can you provide a source for this? The article on sakoku says the only thing censored was Christianity, which the shogunate perceived as threatening to its political control, and indeed conversion was punishable by death. (For some context, part of the reason was the fear that a large Christian community would provide a pretext for Western powers to intervene in the country with the stated goal of protecting Christians, something that indeed happened in places such as China and the Ottoman Empire.) --47.147.118.55 (talk) 04:03, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They would also have some knowledge about Asia through Japanese Buddhism. A degree of Chinese language would be known by cultured people. Besides the Dutch-operated Dejima, Nagasaki was also the port of contact with China. --Error (talk) 17:44, 22 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They would have known the written Classical Chinese language. AnonMoos (talk) 22:06, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sakoku was not "total isolation", as it is sometimes misinterpreted, but a system of controlling and regulating foreign commerce and migration implemented by the shogunate government. There was plenty of traffic with the outside world; it just had to be done through the authorized ports. Foreign texts were widely copied and disseminated. As was the case in most places before the Industrial Revolution, the circulation of written works was primarily among urban populations and particularly the elite. The majority of the population was smallholder farmers, many of whom would have had poor literacy and little access to printed works. --47.147.118.55 (talk) 04:03, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

November 23

Russians in Crimea

With the liberation of Kherson by Ukrainian forces, liberating Crimea becomes a very real possibility that could happen relatively soon in the future.

During the past 8 years of military occupation, have the ethnic Russian people in Crimea ever displayed any significant resistance effort or protests against Russian aggression?

What are the opinions of the general public in Ukraine on the ethnic Russian people in Crimea? StellarHalo (talk) 06:45, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Keep in mind that Sebastopol before 2014 was a Russian naval base leased from Ukraine. I expect that even Russian civilians there support Russia.

During the occupation, there was some protest from the Crimean Tatars minority (15%). Republic of Crimea#Crimean Tatars mentions accusations of jihadism but is not very up-to-date.

--Error (talk) 09:40, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

'Recast' church bells

A local church has bells that were made in 1776 and "recast" in 1958. What does that mean? Are they still the 1776 bells, or were they melted down and new one made from the same metal? Our article, Church bell seems silent on the matter. Is there a source we can use to clarify? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:39, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's the latter. Recasting is done when a bell is broken or otherwise damaged, and reuses the existing metal in a new mould. This short article from an American bell foundry is quite informative. "Bells that are cracked, and those that are of such poor shape that tonal improvement through tuning is impossible, can be recast. Recasting means that the usable portion of the metal of the old bell will be used in making a new bell of like size. In many cases, historic inscriptions can be copied on the recast bell." The Church of England has a code of practice for bell repair and conservation: it's available as a PDF (search Conservation and repair of bells and bellframes). Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 23:04, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

November 24

yet anotherof my dumb questions

Could the Ammonites and Moabites and the Tyrians(Tyrians of King Hiram's time) have been Habiru? Maybe that's already established? Rich (talk) 05:37, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What percentage of British men born in 1899 died young as a result of World War I?

What percentage of British men born in 1899 died young as a result of World War I? 68.4.99.100 (talk) 06:16, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]