Talk:Barack Obama
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Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
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![]() | Administrators have identified this article as problematic with regard to our biographies of living persons policy. In order to avoid placing special enforcement sanctions, which may include blocks, deletions, page protections, topic/article bans, and "any and all means at their [administrators] disposal to ensure that every Wikipedia article is in full compliance with the letter and spirit of the biographies of living persons policy", users are asked to take special care in editing this article to ensure it remains in compliance with policy.
If you violate biographies of living persons policy you may receive a warning and explanation on your talk page. If you again violate biographies of living persons policy, you may be blocked, banned or otherwise sanctioned with limited rights of appeal. Wikipedia articles can affect real people's lives. This gives us an ethical and legal responsibility. Biographical material must be written with the greatest care and attention to verifiability, neutrality and avoiding original research, particularly if it is contentious. Editors must take particular care adding biographical material about a living person to any Wikipedia page. Such material requires a high degree of sensitivity, and must adhere strictly to all applicable laws in the United States and to all of our content policies. |
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Website?
I think this should be in the section where it shows his website. The Obama for Illinois senator is old and outdated. http://www.barackobama.com/splash/first_to_know.html user:chasesboys
BarackObama.com is already included, I move to delete this section. natezomby (talk)
Illinois "13th District"
The section on his State Senate service says he's from the "13th district", but it links to the Illinois 13th Congressional District in the US House of Representatives, not the Illinois State Senate. Could someone who knows more about IL politics than I do fix that so it's right? \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 02:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is my understanding that State senate positions follow congressional districts in Illinois, and this is supported by the sources that always seem to refer to Obama (and Palmer before him) being in the 13th Congressional District. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Seems to me the fact that Obama was first elected to office (Illinois State Senate 13th district) as a result of his challenging the nominating petitions of the incumbent state Sen. Alice Palmer (and others) for the Democratic nomination in a heavily Democratic district; thus having her name (along with the others) removed from the ballot, is relevant here. Seldom is someone elected by removing their competitors from the ballot, especially an incumbent. See this post from the Chicago Sun Times http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/10/sweet_column_clinton_forces_to.html. There's probably an article in the same newspaper during the election in 1996 referencing this fact. This is also mentioned in Alice Palmer's Wikipedia entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Palmer_(Illinois_politician) and is referenced. DB1958 (talk) 21:12, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is already covered in the child article, and going into that level of detail in the BLP would be a case of undue weight. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think a more important point is that this article is in summary style, which everybody -- at least, everybody trying to stuff in any little allegation they can find in blogs somewhere -- keeps forgetting. In summary style, the child articles are considered part of the main article, with the level of detail that allows for the minor stuff, while the main article should only contain the major points. Unless we want a thirty page article covering the minutiae of every perceived toe-stepping incident and allegation, we have to stick to the big stuff -- and the big stuff only -- in the main article. --GoodDamon 21:44, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Obama is NOT half white
Obama's mother has native american descent. This means the strongest ancestry in his blood is black african. Why is this not mentioned?YVNP (talk) 10:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
>>> Well, you can say his mother was Native American and so he is not white, but that doesn't make him more black, that makes him less white and more Native American... and... was she? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.5.19 (talk) 05:54, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Currently Barack Obama identifies as an African American. We use the general term White American to cover his mother's descent and not delve deeply into his mother's ancestry. This article is also written in an outline style that only covers the basics and most important information about Obama, leaving the rest to daughter articles to delve deeper into the various subjects. While it may or may not be true that he has native American ancestry, it does not merit a mention in the article. If we mentioned every single facet of his ancestry delving way back to the middle ages, the page would be triple the length that it is now. It is also important to use the identity that Obama himself chooses to associate with and not apply the various other things that people tag onto him, that he himself does not use. Brothejr (talk) 12:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Does that matter? LTIC the One drop rule still meant he is legaly black. --Deuxhero (talk) 02:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- We're here to describe not prescribe what his identity is. .:davumaya:. 05:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is also important to use the identity that Obama himself chooses to associate with and not apply the various other things that people tag onto him, that he himself does not use I agree 100% with Brothejr, identity is not our issue here, his self identification (and the media branding of him) as black is not in dispute is it? Anything further is genealogical original research or somebody's opinion of what he should be called, neither of which is relevant to this article! natezomby (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- We're here to describe not prescribe what his identity is. .:davumaya:. 05:34, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Does that matter? LTIC the One drop rule still meant he is legaly black. --Deuxhero (talk) 02:59, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The German media im sure branded Americans as terms similar to scum back during the war does that mean that americans are scum? (Invertedzero (talk) 00:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC))
- Wow. Godwin's Law this early? Nothing is in dispute here. Move to delete this section. natezomby (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- It Still makes him half-black, his mother is Native american, that makes him Half-Native and Half-Black, it would be politically incorrect to say he is completely black or even mostly black.--Banditda (talk) 16:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's edits are not determined by how "politically correct" they are. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 17:02, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- But he is still only half-black. how about wikipedia being FACTUALLY correct The FACTS say he is only half-black and if it isn't based on politically correctness couldn't i just change "african american" to "black". there is no such thing as a consensus on FACTS.--Banditda (talk) 17:41, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is a consensus to call him African-American, and that this fits his self-identification, the vast majority of published sources, etc. Race is not a fact, it is a social construct. That construct, in America at the moment, is that if you have one African-American parent and one European-American parent (or Native-American, I won't even get into that) and you call yourself African-American, then you may be described as African-American. Our consensus is to follow that construct. That is not meant to endorse it, simply to use the terminology that everyone else does. Wikidemon (talk) 18:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
(Incidentally, he had no African-American parent -- he had an African parent and an American parent (which I suppose makes him African-American by national background, if nothing else.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.138.86.90 (talk) 19:59, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- ok i get it, and now i understand that i can officially consider myself latino, or asian, even though i am mostly european and a native born american. I think ill go with latino, lol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.17.229.64 (talk) 22:53, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oh that last comment was from me BTW--Banditda (talk) 23:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- The FACT is that he IS a mixed race American and this is Wikipedia so that is how it should be stated. You all know that you're not supposed to use opinions when editing articles. If a white person and a black person have a child, it is considered a mixed child. I have a mixed nephew. I don't consider him black just because he has black in his ancestry. Why is Obama left out of this and seen as 100% black? I honestly dont know but I'm sure a lot of people out there would be suprised if you told them he was only 50% black because of how the media advertises him as the possible "first black president". Sorry to burst your bubble media. First MIXED major presidential cantidate? Maybe. wagexslave (talk) 12:05 AM, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
As I read this whole debate about him being half white or half black or half native american. I can only think of the days when if you had a single drop of Jewish or Negro blood, your existance was now contaminated. Nice going folks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.205.246.175 (talk) 20:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
It's clear that Obama has a black Kenyan father and a white American mother. So the term biracial would be more accurate to use than African-American. He is biracial with a Kenyan father. Kenyan-American? Just because terms are commonly used doesn't make them correct. And Wikipedia is supposed to be encyclopedic in nature. Furthermore, is a White South African moves to the USA African-American? (Wallamoose (talk) 00:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC))
Controversy re: Rezko/Ayers
What about Obama's alleged ties to Rezko and Bill Ayers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.201.111 (talk • contribs)
(Comment restored after total brain failure and Twinkle-madness on my part -- Scjessey (talk) 15:28, 3 September 2008 (UTC))
- These two issues appear to be speculative in news stories that have yet to gain a formal influence on Obama's life. To talk about them in the article now would be a crystal ball of a poor synthesis. It would be the same as a "controversy" with Louis Farrakhan. These issues if they come to light may be better placed in 2008 general election. .:davumaya:. 16:51, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is that you, Megapen? If so, you spelled Rezko wrong again. The answer to your question can be found above and in any of the several dozen recent archives where this has been discussed. It is a violation of WP:UNDUE, and wholly innappropriate for this article. The Ayers controversy in mentioned in the article on Obama's campaign, where it belongs. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 22:08, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Barack Obama's personal and professional ties to Bill Ayers and Bill Ayers' radical past are NOT speculative, rather, they are fact just as his 20+ year relationship to Rev Jeremiah Wright is fact. Both of these references should be contained in this article, unless of course, this article is just campaign propaganda, in which case it does not belong here in Wiki Land. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.242.19.9 (talk) 19:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Firstly, it would be appropriate for you to register a username if you wish to be taken "seriously" in a discussion. Next, you ought to review the many archives which already contain the answer to your question. If you are Megapen and here again to stir trouble, then you are trolling, and I'll ask you kindly to leave since the matter/matters are settled. And lastly, your accusation that this article is just campaign propaganda is disillusioned and won't help you gain Consensus by insulting Wiki Land. .:davumaya:. 21:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Nothing speculative about the relationships with the terrorist Bill Ayers. I agree that these references should be in the article. To be fair John Mccain's warts are in his article and the same should occur here, unless there is bias? These relationships are some of the only glimpses that people can get into his character. I'm a new contributor so I hope I've followed the rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by S Scott Yapp (talk • contribs) 05:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your Rezko information is prominently located in "Family and personal life." As for Ayers, let me direct you to Obama–Ayers controversy where the only conclusion one can draw from their "controversy" is that Ayers happens to be a well known professor and person in the community. Two and two in the same place do not equal one. Similarly McCain is often in the upper elite circles of very very terrible men who have maimed and extorted, but in how much we do say that is to be in McCain's biography? And labeling Ayers a terrorist is interesting, a terrorist implies someone who is wanted by the law and is either incarcerated or on the run. Last I checked Professor Ayers was an educator. .:davumaya:. 00:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- There's nothing "prominent" at all about "your Rezko information." It's a single sentence, carefully buried in a vast field of text. That relationship deserves a paragraph at least. Ayers deserves at least a sentence, particularly since there's an entire article about Obama-Ayers controversy which should be linked here. If you're using summary style as excuse to exclude legitimate criticism, you have to follow WP:SS, which requires you to provide a link to the article where you've concealed the criticism. There is no doubt that Ayers is a terrorist. That is what makes him notable. Otherwise, we'd have a Wikipedia bio about every university professor in the world. Curious bystander (talk) 15:53, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
It seems strange that Obama's well documented 20 year relationships with Rev. Wright, Bill Ayers, and Tony Rezko shouldn't be fully covered. (Wallamoose (talk) 00:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC))
These are tabloid non issues that have about and much coverage in the article as they deserve, or as much as should be found in any educated venue Cosand (talk) 17:15, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
"Most Watched Convention Speech in History"
Should this sentence be removed now that the numbers for the Palin speech have been reported as over 40 million? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.220.39.44 (talk) 09:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Got a reliable source for that info? GlassCobra 09:06, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Hmm, I think so...[4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.220.39.44 (talk) 09:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Quick re-read seems to indicate the numbers aren't apples to apples. Less networks for Palin speech, but not broken out in article. Maybe undeterminable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.220.39.44 (talk) 09:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, to clear some of this up here is a direct quote from the Guardian[5]:
"Audience research body Nielsen estimated that an average of 37.2 million viewers watched Palin give her vice-presidential nomination speech at the Republican national convention across broadcast and cable outlets between 10pm and 11.15pm, east coast US time, on Wednesday night. This compares with the 38.4 million who watched Barack Obama's Democratic presidential nomination acceptance speech at his party's convention last week." - The Guardian
I would contend that the Guardian is a reliable source for a Neilsen rating quote, and even if it isn't I also found that on Neilsen's site, "NeilsenWire" confirmed that Obama had more viewers[6] even though some folks seem to have missed their fact check. Saying it was the most watched convention speech (at least since they started such ratings) still holds true and is an important part of the article, unless the numbers from McCain's acceptance speech turn out to be even more. Heres the Neilsen quote:
"More than 37.2 million people tuned in for coverage of the third night of the 2008 Republican National Convention, which featured Sarah Palin’s much anticipated national debut. Wednesday night’s RNC broadcasts attracted just a 1.1 million fewer viewers than Barack Obama’s record-breaking speech on day four of the Democratic convention." - NeilsenWire
Hope this helps! Natezomby (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 12:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Did this on the Palin talked page. Summary : Palin Numbers and Obama Numbers . Obama's numbers still appear to be higher, but only because 4 other networks aired Obama's speech which Nielson's tracked. I think some people are reporting the Palin PBS numbers on top of the Neilson ones unfairly against the Obama Neilson numbers. Addition of PBS numbers puts both of them over 40 million.
Person | NBC | ABC | CBS | FNC | CNN | MSNBC | Totals (In Millions) |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Obama | 6.1 | 6.6 | 4.7 | 4.2 | 8.1 | 4.1 | 33.8 |
Palin | 7.7 | 5.9 | 4.9 | 9.2 | 6.2 | 3.4 | 37.3 |
Nielson's also collected numbers from BET, TV One, Univision, and Telemundo [for Obama only]. These networks didn't air the Palin speech. Neilson's total numbers reported for both candidates with all airing networks that they tracked was: Obama at 38.379 and Palin at 37.244 [in millions]. It has also been reported that Obama had about 4.0 and Palin with 3.9 [in millions] viewers from PBS. PBS didn't participate in the Neilson study - nor does C-SPAN (numbers unknown). The Obama entry here should be modified to state it's only true for a Neilson rating that included those 10 networks - otherwise it's argumentative. Theosis4u (talk) 16:40, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- As I noted on the Palin talk page. You're assuming that the viewers on the 4 additional stations that aired Obama's speech would not have switched the channel to one of the commons channels if they channel they watched it on did not air Obama's speech. Unfortunately that isn't an assumption that can be made.. It's also more likely than not, a bad assumption to make as it is more likely that more would have switched channels than would not have... Neilsen only works as an aggregate and that's how it should be included in this article. --Bobblehead (rants) 17:37, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's hard to come up with any apple to apple comparison. I don't believe there's even a weak argument to suggest though that the missing 4 channel viewers would of watched it on one of the other 6 though. Spanish language viewers are from - Univision, and Telemundo. Theosis4u (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Most US television stations include a Spanish translation in their broadcast on the secondary audio program. That's the "Broadcast with SAP" tag you see either at the end or at the beginning of the opening credits. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Reaching...just like I would be if I made the argument that when my family comes over they put it on either univsion or telemundo and it stays on either of them - regardless of what's on it, content wise - until they leave. Theosis4u (talk) 18:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Heh. It's no more reaching than your assumption that they wouldn't have watched the Obama speech on a different channel if it hadn't aired on the one they watched it on. I was just pointing out the fallacy of your assumption that simply because they watched it on Telemundo or Univision that they would not have watched it on a different channel. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:56, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Reaching...just like I would be if I made the argument that when my family comes over they put it on either univsion or telemundo and it stays on either of them - regardless of what's on it, content wise - until they leave. Theosis4u (talk) 18:35, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Most US television stations include a Spanish translation in their broadcast on the secondary audio program. That's the "Broadcast with SAP" tag you see either at the end or at the beginning of the opening credits. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:29, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's hard to come up with any apple to apple comparison. I don't believe there's even a weak argument to suggest though that the missing 4 channel viewers would of watched it on one of the other 6 though. Spanish language viewers are from - Univision, and Telemundo. Theosis4u (talk) 18:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- It certainly seems like these speeches, more than just about any other televised event, are things where the viewers pick a channel to watch a specific thing. There might be a sliver of viewers who get BET on their TV but don't get NBC/CNN, but that can't be many. The viewership of these two widely-watched events is certainly close, but it does appear that Obama's was the "most watched political speech" or whatever. I don't have any special attachment to the sentence in the article, but I definitely don't want some contrived circumlocution with lots of caveats (omitting the point altogether would be fine, though I think it's modestly notable to include; just don't put in some awkward sentence rather than the direct and clear statement) LotLE×talk 17:45, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Thanks for the tireless legwork. I hope this doesn't sound like a stick in the mud but the viewership of the speech is a bit of a sideline. The entire paragraph about his convention speech may get cut down to a few words, or removed entirely, as it recedes into history and he wins or does not win the election. If it is unequivocally the most-watched convention speech in history it might merit a few words held up against his lifetime biography; if it is only debatably so and it has to be explained or proven with charts, I don't think people are going to care so much that they need to read it in his bio. It's relatively more important to the article about the convention, of course. If there are conflicting accounts and numbers, I would just report that the speech had a large audience that was by some accounts the largest ever, then footnote the whole thing, keeping in mind that it will eventually get farmed out to the convention article.Wikidemon (talk) 17:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- All mute now because McCain draws record 38.9 mln viewers, bests Obama Theosis4u (talk) 18:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yup.;) It's all academic now. Heh. --Bobblehead (rants) 19:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ha! Thank you Mr. McCain. Wikidemon (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yup.;) It's all academic now. Heh. --Bobblehead (rants) 19:09, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
The news reports I've read state that Obama was shown on more networks, but has less total viewers than McCain for sure and likely less than Palin too. Also, Biden was way less than all three. Looks likee the wunderkind picked the wrng running mate, but the old-fogey picked the right one. 216.153.214.89 (talk) 19:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Request notation that viewership was equaled or surpassed by McCain speech one week later. Leaving original record is fine; not noting MCain's numbers is at best POV, at worst blatant dishonesty. The "new" record doesn't appear on the McCain page at all, which seems rather strange. Perhaps the community can agree on an identical wording for both articles...maybe in the vein of "Obama's nomination acceptance speech was watched by more viewers than any convention speech in history, a record subsequently matched by McCain's acceptance speech one week later." There, a NPOV statement that can go on both pages. Any objections? --Textmatters (talk) 03:20, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
Academic
All this is academic. We write from a historical perspective, and the statement that is was the most watched in history is still factually accurate and reliably sourced. Consider also that it was during the Labor Day weekend, when viewing figures are among the lowest of the year, and it was carried on far less networks than either Palin's or McCain's speech. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Barack's holding the dubious title to a record of unclear importance, for a week, does not seem like a biographically important matter. Comparing the viewership to the Beijing Olympics seems irrelevant. More people heard him than watched Evel Knievel's Snake River jump, or the Who Shot JR episode of Dalls... but so what? This article is sometimes criticized for being too lauditory. Saying that it was the most-watched convention speech in history (Out of how many conventions in the modern era -- 56?), when the record was only by a small margin and held for only a week, sounds a bit like unadulterated but slight praise. How is the reader educated by knowing this fact? I think it would be better to include a phrase like "heavily watched" or something like that. Wikidemon (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- That seems fine. Go for it. As long as it isn't removed because it is "wrong" (when it clearly isn't). -- Scjessey (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Huh? Obama's speech was carried on 4 more networks than Palin's and two more networks than McCain. But that being said, don't really care if it is included or not, but if it is included, it should probably note that the viewership total was surpassed by McCain's the next week (thanks in part to a strong lead in by the NFL on NBC). Although, I did just find an article on San Francisco Chronicle that says the two tied at 42.4 million when you add in PBS's numbers. That being said, perhaps a better way of including the factoid is to forgo the whole "most watched" bit and just go with "The speech, delivered in front of 84,000 supporters in Invesco Field and watched by an estimated 38.4 million on television, contained pointed criticism of McCain and President Bush and added details to his stances that were not mentioned in previous campaign speeches." --Bobblehead (rants) 20:56, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- That seems fine. Go for it. As long as it isn't removed because it is "wrong" (when it clearly isn't). -- Scjessey (talk) 20:08, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
According to the New York Sun, university spokesman Brian Connolly confirmed that Obama graduated in 1983 with a major in political science but without honors. Why do you publish that Obama graduated with honors? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.19.184.194 (talk) 15:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Because the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune, and a bunch of other newspapers say he did. He graduated magna cum laude. The fact that the New York Sun says otherwise is interesting, but someone's honors on graduation are a simple matter of public record, not opinion, and the Sun got it wrong. With the preponderance of reliable sources describing Obama's graduation with honors, there's no point in changing the article based on one newspaper's sketchy fact-checking. --GoodDamon 15:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Bi-Racial and not African American
Obama is of african and white european decent. he is not the first "african american" candidate for president because he is bi-racial. some will say that if you "have one drop of black blood you are all black" but where is the logic in that? i am half irish and half australian, mom from ireland, dad from Australia. so obama cannot be considered African American or Black when 50% of his genetic makeup is White European. Valliant1967 (talk) 22:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- You might want to check out all the previous recent discussions on this, as well as all sorts of reliable sources, reputable news organizations, and Obama himself. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 22:37, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
so he is not from two races? both parents are black? and "check out" Obama himself? what does this mean? is he so powerful that he can discount science and common sense? Valliant1967 (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Wikipedia reports what reliable sources have written on the subject. Whether or not they fit in with your idea of reality is irrelevant. Calling Obama bi-racial in that sentence is original research, as it goes against what reliable sources say and indeed even what Obama considers himself. It is made clear in the body of the article that his mother was Caucaisian. But Obama is still referred to as an African-American. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 22:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- He is of course African American, but the neutral thing to do would be to mention he is Caucasion too. Why not mention in parenthesis in the lead that his father was black and his mother white, or some clarification like that? To an unknowledgeable reader that only reads the lead paragraph (which a very large percent of readers do) they would get the impression his race is a majority of African American. Most black people in the US today I would assume are not 100% black, however, Obama is 50% black 50% white, singling out the black seems like deceptive information here. Many readers only read lead paragraphs, therefore the lead should be very unambiguous, and for many people race is a large issue (which is confirmed clearly in this article because the lead mentions his race). LonelyMarble (talk) 23:01, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
well, my eyeballs are pretty reliable, and when your momma is white, you are not black. if obama considered himself an ardvark would you report that? Valliant1967 (talk) 22:54, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Only if other reliable sources said so as well. (Right?) —Kal (talk) 23:02, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Check out the One-drop rule and Race in the United States. /Blaxthos ( t / c ) 23:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
i must say that i agree with lonely marble, it is only fair. Valliant1967 (talk) 23:08, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter what you think is fair. It matters what reliable sources report. And reliable sources report that he is African-American. It is not Wikipedia's fault that some readers don't read the whole article. Erik the Red 2 (AVE·CAESAR) 23:11, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- Obviously reliable sources point out he is 50% black, 50% white. I don't care about using the specific term "bi-racial". Your argument seems really defensive and irrelevant. It is very obvious we can get a million sources that say he is half white as well as half black. The argument here is whether it is relevant to say he is African American and not mention he is Caucasion also in the lead paragraph. LonelyMarble (talk) 23:56, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
it does matter what i think Mr Red, i am trying to be a useful member of wikipeida. Valliant1967 (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- In the context that his race is mentioned in the lead of the article, A-A is the most appropriate as it is this part of his racial ancestry that the press is focusing on and not his Caucasian part. While it is true that Obama is bi-racial, he is not being put up as the "first biracial person to be nominated for President by a major political party", he is being put up as the "first African American to be nominated for President by a major political party"... --Bobblehead (rants) 00:09, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Why not climb down and reach a compromise? Just put this up: "He is the first African-American (bi-racial) to be a major...". It's not enough added verbage to congest the sentence, makes everyone here happy <cough>, and gives the reader additional info up front. The man also fits the definition of "bi-racial", arguing about sourcing on this point seems like requiring one to reference that the "world is round". Spiff1959 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Because if we don't follow what the source says that would be original research? --Bobblehead (rants) 04:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Using "African-American" does not invalidate "bi-racial", and vice versa. They are not mutually exclusive. By including both you are including ALL sources. Spiff1959 (talk) 04:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is a longstanding consensus on this page to identify Obama as African American, because: (1) Obama self-identifies that way in his speeches, writing, etc; and (2) the preponderance of reliable sources identify him primarily that way. As a quick illustration (not argument or proof - the decision on this is pretty firm) if you google Obama with "African-American you get 11,000+ news hits.[7] Obama + "biracial" has less than 600 news hits.[8] So obviously being of African descent is a bigger deal with the sources than being of mixed descent. This does not invalidate other things. Race and culture are complex issue and one may fit multiple overlapping categories, e.g. being Native American and Caucasian, or Hispanic and Jewish, etc. Wikidemon (talk) 04:27, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Incidentally, in addition to having this in the FAQ, perhaps we should just create a sub-page for this... Wikidemon (talk) 04:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- How is my propsed compromise of using "... African-American (biracial)..." not identifying him as African-American? Throw in "bi-racial" and "mixed-race" and you get another 400 hits on google. So all the sources would be satisfied if both monickers are present in the sentence. Wouldn't you say a great majority of those described as African-American can not claim to have a caucasian mother? Were not raised by white grandparents? Wouldn't you say that is a very important aspect of Obamas life? What is wrong with including your preferred phrase to satisfy 90% of the sources, and including the other as well to satisy the remaining 10% of news sources and provide a very important piece of information about Obama's life to those readers who may not go beyond the opening paragraph? A long-standing consensus only stands as long as there is a consensus? But just to reiterate, this change would not affect the status quo, it simply adds key info, satisfies the remaining news sources, it only costs adding one word to the paragraph, and makes those who have posted here wanting an edit happy. It would also thrill the posters who have argued this debate in the past, and would alleviate the future debates on this same point. Win-win? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spiff1959 (talk • contribs) 08:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Incidentally, in addition to having this in the FAQ, perhaps we should just create a sub-page for this... Wikidemon (talk) 04:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
(Outdent)Looking at everyone here who is arguing that he is bi-racial must be included into the outline biography over and over again keeps on reminding me one thing, and that is that they continually forget what Obama thinks. While you yourself may identify as bi-racial, and you may see others as bi-racial, the one person who has the most say in the matter, is the person themselves. This is an outline biography of Barack Obama. This is not a discussion on Barack Obama, social commentary on Obama or the country, not a political commentary, but an outline biography of Barack Obama. He self identifies (I.E. he calls himself) as an African American. It's kind of like a person who has a Christian father and a Jewish mother calling themselves Jewish. It is strictly up to the person themselves and no one else. Added upon that, we have thousands of very reliable sources saying that he calls himself African American, including from the person's own mouth. I would think that people would be respectful of what Obama chooses and not apply labels to him that he chooses not to apply himself. This is like someone up to you and telling you are something else other then what you call yourself. As stated in the FAQ and in the variety of reoccurring arguments about the same thing, Barack Obama self-identifies as an African American and his outline biography reflects that. Brothejr (talk) 11:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- We can't say what "Obama thinks". In his most recent speech, the acceptance speech, the only description of himself was (paraphrasing) "My mother is white, and my father is Kenyan". Obama appears African-American, has likely has always been treated as an African-American, maybe it's more convenient for him to go with that than to say "No, I'm biracial" then have to go into a minute-long explanation each time? Who knows? He has described himself as biracial. He has never denied that he is biracial. Ten-percent of the media accounts attribute him as biracial or mixed-race. Respectful? What you all are saying is that if Sandy Koufax called himself a "pitcher" and 90% of the media articles refer to him as a "pitcher", yet 10% of the media articles identify him as a "leftie" or a "southpaw", that we don't want to go against sources, or disrespect his wishes by identifying him on his wiki page as a "left-handed pitcher". That is EXACTLY what you're saying. Spiff1959 (talk) 15:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sadly, your Sandy Koufax analogy does not fit here because him calling himself a pitcher (which is a profession) is not the same as someone calling themselves one race or another. While Obama has not hidden the races of his parents, he still identifies and allows others to identify him as African American. As has been mentioned before, there is more then enough reliable sources calling him African American. If you feel there is a problem of him calling himself an African American and not mixed race then I'd suggest you contact his campaign and bring it up with him as he is the only one to choose which race he self identifies as and no one else. However, as this is an outline biography of Barack Obama, then calling him African American (A race he self identifies as) is appropriate. Brothejr (talk) 15:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Don't put words in my mouth, or twist what edit it is that I (we) am advocating. I NEVER said not to refer to him as African-American. Did my analogy recommend to not refer to Koufax as a pitcher? My analogy is dead-on. 216.170.33.149 (talk) 15:39, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Adding on to my last comment. I think the issue here is the idea of mixed race and how a person self identifies themselves. I can easily understand that there are a good portion of people who have mixed races from their parents. For example, a person with an African American parent and a Caucasian parent. They look like an African American, yet that person want's to be known as mixed race for whatever personal reason they may have. These mixed race people have a hard time getting people to see them as mixed race and not one or the other, but both. So while these mixed race people are trying to fight to be recognized as mixed race, they latch onto other people who are also mixed race because they see those people as feeling the same issue and problems as they are. Yet, the underlying theme here is those people of mixed race who want to be seen as mixed race, has self identified and want other people to identify them as mixed race. Because of this, they purposely choose to see others as mixed race even if the other person does not see themselves as mixed race. The basic issue here is self choice. While a person might be mixed race it, is completely up to that person and no one else, to choose how they self identify as. In this instance, Barack Obama does admit to having a mixed race background. He is happy with it, he is proud of it, yet he has chosen to self identify as an African American. While this goes against what those who identify as mixed race are arguing, it is not right to tell Barack Obama what he should self identify as or whose self identifies as mixed race to change Barack Obama's outline biography to reflect their own values and views. Brothejr (talk) 15:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
<undent> Could you put my last comment back where it was beneath your "Sadly..." post? I'm not sure an "Adding on to..." comment is appropriate 14 minutes after I'd already replied? Kinda throws off the continuity of things. If I respond to your new "Adding on to..." then it really pushes my prior comment off into oblivion making it appear a disjointed orphan, and making your "Sadly," comment appear to have gone unrebutted. Thanks ;) Spiff1959 (talk) 16:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- (I've moved your comment above, sorry we posted just about the same time and your post was added right after mine.) To show the problem with your analogy is this: Sandy Koufax was a pitcher and calling him a leftie/southpaw is still the same as calling him a pitcher in baseball lingo. Besides, a pitcher is still a profession not a race. As stated above, the main issue here are people who identify themselves as mixed race wanting to everyone else to identify Obama as mixed race despite what Obama himself wants to identify as. It is stated down within the article his linage, yet it still uses the race he chooses to identify as. Brothejr (talk) 16:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- "despite what Obama himself wants"? I can provide instances of reliable sources where he described himself as biracial. Do you have a source somewhere where he asked that no one reference those conversations? That he specifially did not want to be referred to in that way? (as an aside, I'f Charles manson asked that we not refer to him as a murderer, would we comply to not hurt his feelings, or show disrespect?) The compromise I proposed above, with one word, adds key, impeccably-sourced, information to the article, without negating the existing content one iota. The post ending with "Win/win?" above lists the rest of the benefits. Spiff1959 (talk) 16:33, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Simply put, it is not a compromise. It is getting the words you like up in the lead paragraph. While you have some sources that call him biracial, and he does admit to being biracial, he identifies as African American. Plus, any addition to the lead calling him mixed race when he does not self identify as mixed race will be reverted do to it being WP:SYNTH and also a bit of WP:OR. Let the article reflect what Barack Obama chooses to identify as and lets not push the issue any further? Brothejr (talk) 16:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)Spiff, the issue is that in the context African-American is being used, calling him bi-racial is original research. Barack Obama is not being billed as the first bi-racial candidate for a major political party, he's being billed as the first African-American candidate for a major political party. There simply isn't a way that we can include that he is the first bi-racial (even in the format that you're trying to add) without violating WP:NOR. --Bobblehead (rants) 16:40, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- His being biracial is well-sourced - definitely not original research. In fifteen seconds I see it in the Washington Post, LA Times, Chicago Tribune, USA Today. Here is a CNN article devoted to the very subject.[http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/09/btsc.obama.race/index.html I think it passes the threshold of relevance / notability, and it has been mentioned from time to time in the article. So I have no objection, and in fact there seemed to be consensus for noting this in the article a couple days ago (see above discussion at Talk:Barack Obama#Before anyone reverts it). There is no contradiction between his identifying as African-American and his being biracial. Just not as a primary identification here, and not in the lead. Also, even though there is some sourcing to call him the first bi-racial candidate that's a little shakier. Race is a very slippery thing, and we are all multi-racial to some extent depending how you look at it, and any claim that he is the first implies that no other president has been multi-racial (something we should take with a grain of salt) Wikidemon (talk) 18:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hasn't Obama said that there is only one race- the human race? I really don't think we should apply a label that he would obviously object to. "African American" is simply the common term for an American of significant african ancestry so the term is entirely appropriate for Obama. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- The first sentence of the Early life and career section already identifies his father as a black Kenyan and his mother as a white American.... Identifying him as bi-racial seems redundant... --Bobblehead (rants) 19:03, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hasn't Obama said that there is only one race- the human race? I really don't think we should apply a label that he would obviously object to. "African American" is simply the common term for an American of significant african ancestry so the term is entirely appropriate for Obama. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 19:06, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- His being biracial is well-sourced - definitely not original research. In fifteen seconds I see it in the Washington Post, LA Times, Chicago Tribune, USA Today. Here is a CNN article devoted to the very subject.[http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/09/btsc.obama.race/index.html I think it passes the threshold of relevance / notability, and it has been mentioned from time to time in the article. So I have no objection, and in fact there seemed to be consensus for noting this in the article a couple days ago (see above discussion at Talk:Barack Obama#Before anyone reverts it). There is no contradiction between his identifying as African-American and his being biracial. Just not as a primary identification here, and not in the lead. Also, even though there is some sourcing to call him the first bi-racial candidate that's a little shakier. Race is a very slippery thing, and we are all multi-racial to some extent depending how you look at it, and any claim that he is the first implies that no other president has been multi-racial (something we should take with a grain of salt) Wikidemon (talk) 18:02, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
<outdent> The journalistic top-down style states that the opening paragraph should concisely summarize the main points of the story. There seems consensus at least to admit being born of a caucasian mother and raised by whites is a key point regarding Obama. I have some support now that identifying him mainly as African-American and also biracial does not detract from the fact that he is still African-American. Given that, a one-word addition to the opening sentence seems worthly to impart additional key information. I've laid out my case as best I can. I was trying to act as an intermediary of what I see has been a frequently-recurring debate and come up with the best solution possible. Some might want to save their posts as they may need to use them again with the next person who wants "A-A" removed entirely, and the person after that, and the person after... Take care. Spiff1959 (talk) 19:20, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- I really don't think it is appropriate to use a term which Obama would himself strongly object to- that his mother/grandparents are/were white is not so important to who he is that it should go into the lead paragraph. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 19:28, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He obviously does not mind being identified as a minority race - the aphorism notwithstanding. There's no evidence to suggest he has objected to being known as biracial. If we are going to cover race we might as well cover all the issues within the bounds of relevance, POV, verifiability, and so on. I think the main question is just how notable it is. Given the sourcing, I would say it's fine enough for a word or two in the article body but not the lead. If elected he will be the first of a lot of things, but the most notable of them is the one everyone is talking about, the first person (partly, substantially, and recently) of African heritage... which in America given the lingo of the times we call "African-American."Wikidemon (talk) 19:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Where has he said anything about identifying as a "minority race"? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 19:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He identifies as African-American. Do I need a cite for that? Wikidemon (talk) 19:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He has never said African Americans are a separate race to everyone else. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- You've lost me. How can you infer that he objects to being called biracial, but not that he objects to being called African-American, from his repeating the saying that there is only one race, the human race? Wikidemon (talk) 20:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He himself has called himself African American. If he believes that there is only one race, then he obviously does not believe that his parents were of different races so he obviously would not want to be called bi-racial. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He has called himself African-American, he has called himself biracial, he has stated there is only one race. All are verifiable. He has never disowned any of those statements. What right do you have to do so? Spiff1959 (talk) 03:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- When has Obama called himself bi-racial? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 11:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I looked around a bit and I concede I was unable to find him referring to himself directly as that. Frankly, I couldn't find him "labelling" himself very often at all. But he has called himself A-A. I've never argued to not use that as his primary racial identifier. I just think a compromise to end the debate would be to include both facts in the lead. It should impart A-A as the preferred descriptor, and the addition of some reference to biracial adds important info and should not detract from the A-A identificaion. Spiff1959 (talk) 13:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- When has Obama called himself bi-racial? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 11:42, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- He has called himself African-American, he has called himself biracial, he has stated there is only one race. All are verifiable. He has never disowned any of those statements. What right do you have to do so? Spiff1959 (talk) 03:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- He himself has called himself African American. If he believes that there is only one race, then he obviously does not believe that his parents were of different races so he obviously would not want to be called bi-racial. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- You've lost me. How can you infer that he objects to being called biracial, but not that he objects to being called African-American, from his repeating the saying that there is only one race, the human race? Wikidemon (talk) 20:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He has never said African Americans are a separate race to everyone else. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 20:00, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He identifies as African-American. Do I need a cite for that? Wikidemon (talk) 19:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Where has he said anything about identifying as a "minority race"? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel (talk) 19:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- He obviously does not mind being identified as a minority race - the aphorism notwithstanding. There's no evidence to suggest he has objected to being known as biracial. If we are going to cover race we might as well cover all the issues within the bounds of relevance, POV, verifiability, and so on. I think the main question is just how notable it is. Given the sourcing, I would say it's fine enough for a word or two in the article body but not the lead. If elected he will be the first of a lot of things, but the most notable of them is the one everyone is talking about, the first person (partly, substantially, and recently) of African heritage... which in America given the lingo of the times we call "African-American."Wikidemon (talk) 19:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Trying to discredit him as a black man
As I said before Obama is half black while he is about 455 white and 5% native american. His black ancestry is therefore the most prominent. He is black in the same way that Asians are the largest race. Asians make up 45% of the world while every other race is at 20% or 10%. The same goes for Obama's ancestryYVNP (talk) 03:56, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- He is not White, bottom line. One drop of non-white blood and you're done- there is no point in wasting time thinking past that drop of impurity which muddies-up the blood. (sorry, I'm just havind fun here, but honest to gawd there are people that still think like that!). I personally think that if you go back far enough, and honestly enough, we all have mud for blood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.46 (talk) 21:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
A solution, all be it semantic, to this problem
My understanding is that Mr Obama's mother is what one would call an American and his father I believe was born in Kenya? Thus he is what one would call African. Therefore by the definition set forth by almost everyone complaining that he is not African American he would be half African and half American. Thus in much the same way as an child of German mother and Arab father would be Arab-German Mr Obama is African-American. Problem solved? —Preceding unsigned comment added by James.robinson (talk • contribs) 22:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
awe-struck supporters
I think there should be something included in the article about the people who faint and see him as a near god. It is something that is very unusual in politics and would be valuable information to include, especially if it included some explantions. Crd721 (talk) 03:53, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Umm.. I don't think there is anyone that sees him as a near god. Are there those that are huge fans of his, indeed, but I doubt anyone is going to be setting up a Church of Obama, despite what the Republicans say. As far as including the faintings, I'm not sure how that is anything but trivia. --Bobblehead (rants) 04:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Or the heat. Tvoz/talk 04:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have seen people though looking up at him (literally looking up at him) with awe-struck eyes, and have their hands together like they are praying. Just one of my observations. And Im not a Republican, either, and I haven't made up mind yet in the election, Im about equal on McCain and Obama, so this isnt just me spreading right wing propaganda. At any rate the level of support by his supporters is unheard of, ignoring the fainting/"god" stuff. And haven't people fainted indoors or in the winter? Crd721 (talk) 09:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are referring to how our beloved Senator Michelle Bachmann sees GWB as god/savior/almighty? .:davumaya:. 00:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- No, the people I'm thinking of were young supporters of Obama, much younger than Michelle Bachmann, who I never even heard of, so I dont think I could have made that mistake. Also, it was clearly at Obama rallies, I could clearly tell it was Obama and not GWB, who was no where in sight. So there is no way I am consfusing who I saw. And yes, I know you are being a smart ass, so I decided to be one too, but everything I said was true. When has Michelle Bachamann ever been seen on tv? Crd721 (talk) 09:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps you are referring to how our beloved Senator Michelle Bachmann sees GWB as god/savior/almighty? .:davumaya:. 00:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have seen people though looking up at him (literally looking up at him) with awe-struck eyes, and have their hands together like they are praying. Just one of my observations. And Im not a Republican, either, and I haven't made up mind yet in the election, Im about equal on McCain and Obama, so this isnt just me spreading right wing propaganda. At any rate the level of support by his supporters is unheard of, ignoring the fainting/"god" stuff. And haven't people fainted indoors or in the winter? Crd721 (talk) 09:21, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Or the heat. Tvoz/talk 04:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- In regard to the fainting, please refer to Mr. Obama's 2008 speech in Grand Rapids in which he accepted John Edwards endorsement, you will notice, if you watch the recording of the speech, theat someone does indeed faint in the crowd.98.108.73.89 (talk) 22:27, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Would it be possible to enter these links into the article?
List of Wikipedia articles of Barack Obama in other languages
Yartett (talk) 16:11, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- No. Because it's not an encyclopedia article, and it's self referential. Cenarium Talk 16:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please explain. Are no lists in Wikipedia? Yartett (talk) 18:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Not of this nature. If you look on the left side of the screen of this article you'll see that there is already a list of different languages that have a Barack Obama article. This is true for all articles. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- As it's been pointed out to me. What about Wikiquotes, wikibooks, et al? Yartett (talk) 19:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Not of this nature. If you look on the left side of the screen of this article you'll see that there is already a list of different languages that have a Barack Obama article. This is true for all articles. --Bobblehead (rants) 18:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Please explain. Are no lists in Wikipedia? Yartett (talk) 18:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
"Freudian slip"
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
- Closed as resolved issue, with further discussion unlikely to lead to viable proposal for improving the encyclopedia. - Wikidemon (talk) 04:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Obviously the Freudian slip by which Obama supposedly admits he is Muslim after all is trivial, and the phrase "it should be noted" is editorializing. One editor inserted it twice[9][10] and a second has now reverted it once.[11] As disputed content this should stay out of the article until and unless those proposing its inclusion gain consensus, which seems very unlikely to happen. I do not want to do a second revert on any issue, however office so could someone else please take care of it (and of course, if you actually think it belongs in the article, feel free to explain its relevance). Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 23:04, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Even without the problematic language, it's completely non-notable for a biography. It would have to be a much, much bigger story before we could even consider it. All of the candidates make verbal slips on a daily basis. We don't rush to put it in their biographies every time it happens. --Loonymonkey (talk) 00:10, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Just like Tom Swayer, and the fence... white wash and call anything perceived as negative to the Prophet as "None Notable" - no matter it's attributed and correctly cited, it don't matter...It's to bad you guys are not as aggressive about this kind of think on McCain's or Sara Palin Bio, but Hey, it'd Wikipedia interpretation of of what is Encyclopedic... For the record this is what was removed and white washed....
- Just like Tom Swayer, and the fence... white wash and call anything perceived as negative to the Prophet as "None Notable" - no matter it's attributed and correctly cited, it don't matter...It's to bad you guys are not as aggressive about this kind of think on McCain's or Sara Palin Bio, but Hey, it'd Wikipedia interpretation of of what is Encyclopedic... For the record this is what was removed and white washed....
- It should be noted Obama, in St.Louis, Mo. at a speech, made a "Freudian slip" by his statement "My Mulism Faith".[1][2] and then later, in a interview with ABC Political analyst George Stephanopoulos, Obama repeatedly interrupted Stephanopoulos, as he trying to explain to Obama the McCain campaign never suggested Obama to have Muslim connections.
- I can't fight the whole DNCC gang here, but what right is right and the above was correctly cited and notable since its now being blasted on all the news outlets as well as Drudge, but HEY the concept of wikipedian "notability" is a squishy, wishy thing thats different for goose and for gander.... Remember,the world watches wikipedia and judges if Wikipedia is just a Campaign tool for the Left wingers or it's truly NPOV...now if Your right ... wikipeida continues, but IF I'm right, well, the Storm will wash wikpedida out to sea. This will be interesting to see considering the stakes. Again I'm just the messenger.Orangejumpsuit (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Do you not know what a biography is...and how ridiculously non-notable this is in the whole scope of Obama's bio? Grsztalk 03:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- To Orangejumpsuit, if you wish to continue editing Obama-related pages, please do not repeatedly insert disputed content or make accusations against other editors. This article is under probation (see notice at the top of this page), and disruptive behavior will not be tolerated. Judging from your responses here and on the Sarah Palin talk page (where you insult other editors and accuse them of lying), and talk page history,[12] you are getting fairly close to being blocked from Wikipedia overall, and need to take some time to review the policies, guidelines, and customs of the project. A good place to start is WP:WELCOME. I am going to close this discussion down as unproductive, and not likely to lead to any viable proposal for improving the article. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 04:00, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thank You Mr Wikidemon for that "THREAT" not that what I said was right or wrong or reasons, in polite discussion, but a dock yard bully threat... Is the customs mean Might makes Right and you got the might so your right??? Now, I don't think "YOU are getting fairly close to being blocked.." is very polite, and I read it as just bully threat by you Mr WIKIDEMON, to pull way from the real issue here is what I put up is cited and notable and relevant and you arbitrarily took it down and made a very uncivil and bold face threat to me in the process when I call you to task to discuss it. Thats the facts. Also, in real world, any way, insults are a two way street...in other words it takes two to tango... So don't lay all blame on me when you are guilty of the same as well with your bold face threat of banning, even though you not an Administer. Don't con a con.Orangejumpsuit (talk) 06:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Do you not know what a biography is...and how ridiculously non-notable this is in the whole scope of Obama's bio? Grsztalk 03:37, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I can't fight the whole DNCC gang here, but what right is right and the above was correctly cited and notable since its now being blasted on all the news outlets as well as Drudge, but HEY the concept of wikipedian "notability" is a squishy, wishy thing thats different for goose and for gander.... Remember,the world watches wikipedia and judges if Wikipedia is just a Campaign tool for the Left wingers or it's truly NPOV...now if Your right ... wikipeida continues, but IF I'm right, well, the Storm will wash wikpedida out to sea. This will be interesting to see considering the stakes. Again I'm just the messenger.Orangejumpsuit (talk) 03:33, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Per [13]: "any fair-minded person will have to admit that when he used that phrase, he was replicating the language of his accusers". What are we, Beavis and Butthead here ("heh heh heh - he said Muslim - heh heh heh")? I suggest treating any further attempt to insert this as simple vandalism. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:09, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, I misunderstood slightly. I thought you meant the talk page, so I reverted a further post by the editor here as "vandalism" (though it's really abuse). Sorry for taking the wrong cue. At any rate the editor has done it twice[14][15] and I reverted twice. I will not attempt to revert or engage this editor further. If anyone thinks they can help, please feel free. Otherwise I'll just take this to an administrative forum. Wikidemon (talk) 06:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Who are you say what is Vandalism or not, I seeing what happens on Wikipeida that term is applied pretty loosely...Your condescending rhetoric and unilateral censorship is not very conductive to polite discussions. Again, don't con a con.Orangejumpsuit (talk) 06:57, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, I misunderstood slightly. I thought you meant the talk page, so I reverted a further post by the editor here as "vandalism" (though it's really abuse). Sorry for taking the wrong cue. At any rate the editor has done it twice[14][15] and I reverted twice. I will not attempt to revert or engage this editor further. If anyone thinks they can help, please feel free. Otherwise I'll just take this to an administrative forum. Wikidemon (talk) 06:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Manipulated image - Obama's mole
On Sept 1 the main image in the article was photo manipulated and put in place of the original image, sans the mole on Barack Obama's face. Please see file history. This needs to be reverted back to the original. --Cioxx (talk) 02:25, 9 September 2008 (UTC) Update: it's been resolved by an admin. --Cioxx (talk) 03:43, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'd thought I'd noticed his mole moving around to different places randomly. Spiff1959 (talk) 04:28, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
It's been unresolved by another admin again. User:Ellomate reverted it to the photoshopped version. Please revert it back. --GoodDamon 05:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Modifying the Main Page
[sorry if I'm making a posting error here. I normally post in another forum, and this is my first attempt]. I do think that the page needs to make mention of Ayers, Acorn, and the Weather Underground. Further, the description of Barack Obama regarding Rezko should be lessed biased [a scandal not related to him. That is an opinion.] Obama did do political favors that profited Rezko.
As for positive mentions of Obama, he did call for no smearing of Palin, he does make speeches which launches his popularity, and his candidacy is historic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Wildfire March (talk • contribs) 12:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Welcome to the page. You're not making any sort of posting error. I would point out, however, that these issues have been hashed over time and again, and you might be well served reading the talk page archives for previous discussions on the facts. The arguments basically boil down to this:
- PRO:
- The Ayers and Rezko associations have been reported on in the mainstream press.
- The current version of the Obama article is too positive; to satisfy WP:NPOV, it needs negative content.
- Excluding the Ayers and Rezko associations is itself POV-pushing.
- CON:
- The mainstream press has only reported on the fact that right-wing attack pieces use Ayers and Rezko. The press itself has not validated those attack pieces.
- WP:NPOV does not require that positive and negative information be equally balanced, only that the facts be stated neutrally.
- WP:RS and WP:BLP indicate that only high-quality sources should be used, especially for negative content. Reliable sources have not lent any validity to claims about Obama's relationships with either man.
- Since the only ones pushing the Ayers and Rezko stories are political opponents writing opinion pieces and blogs -- in other words, not reliable sources -- it is POV-pushing to try to get these controversies into the article.
- The subject matter fails WP:WEIGHT for Obama's biography, and is better suited for the campaign articles.
- I'm sure I'm missing some of the other arguments, but I think that covers most of the basics. What it all boils down to is that those controversies are manufactured, are not being investigated for legal malfeasance, are not being pursued by investigative journalists, and are not significant in a biography about his life. If he comes under investigation, that's a different story, but right now we only have blogs... and news stories about those blogs. There's not enough there to merit inclusion in his biographical article. --GoodDamon 17:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- While the mainstream press has not deconstructed Obama's connections with Ayers, I would think that any complete article would link to the Ayers-Obama wiki article and acknowledge that there definitely has been a controversy over it. The mainstream press has at least done that. It ought to be worthy of inclusion if only because of the stand-off with the University of Illinois refusing to open its records regarding Sen. Obama's work with Ayers's non-profit.
On top of that, it has become an issue because Sen. Obama requested James 9:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- There's a tremendous difference between USA Today reporting that conservative political opponents of Barack Obama have attempted to link Obama and Ayers negatively... and USA Today reporting that Barack Obama and Ayers actually have such links. The first is notable from a political campaign perspective, but not from that of a biography of Obama's life, at least not for the main article. I would also like to point out that this article is written in summary style, meaning each section is a brief overview of the most pertinent facts, with more details in the sub-articles. Those sub-articles should be considered part of this article, and the Ayers connection is already mentioned in appropriate places therein. But it's simply not a notable enough fact to merit a mention in the bird's-eye-view of this particular article. That would certainly change if, for instance, Ayers were up on terrorism charges (he's not), and USA Today published a big investigative piece on their connections, revealing they were best of friends or something. Until then, this is a one-sided, manufactured political controversy, and not really applicable to his bio. Oh, and the University reversed itself on those records, by the way. They were released, and the only thing they revealed was that Obama and Ayers were sometimes in the same room at the same time. Not exactly news. --GoodDamon 05:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Black Liberation Theology
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Why is WIkipedia, on a macro level, going out of its way to baste up Palin's religious information (i.e. her church with being 'saved', creationism, speaking in tongues) when Obama's core of black liberation theology, and the term "black liberation theology" is left out completely? On a micro level, I understand the common excuse "well thats over THERE, and this is HERE. Thats a different article". But that excuse is PRECISELY THE POINT. When you use excuses like that to stuff wikipedia with bias you have a systemic problem on a macro level. I know many of you are involved in stuffing Palin while protecting Obama. How come the term "black liberation theology" isn't found in this article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.63.188 (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I just checked Sarah Palin's WP:BLP page, and it doesn't mention speaking in tongues. It does mention her religion, as this article does with Obama's religion. I'm not sure what you're getting at exactly. A person's religion is certainly notable enough for inclusion in his or her biography, and it is included in both. The whole "black liberation theology" thing is another matter. There's no evidence that Obama believes that, any more than there is evidence that Palin speaks in tongues herself. Without some serious reliable sources to back them up, neither belongs in their bio. And neither is there. Might I gently suggest you read the Palin article more carefully? --GoodDamon 17:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Palin's article mentions specifically "pentecostal church" and being saved. Additionally many people are petitioning the article include speaking in tongues. Since Wikipedia on a macro level has decided its important to describe the theology of Palin (pentecostal), what justification can you provide, on a macro level, that fairness would not demand readers know that Obama attended a church that believes in black liberation theology? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.2.202 (talk) 05:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- This is macro bias. Having a whole section on religion for Palin while having nothing of the sort on Obama....mentioning the theology of Palin's churches while Obama's article never mentions once "black liberation theology" is macro bias. The excuse "well thats over THERE and this is HERE" is precisely the point, and does not justify or excuse that all wikipedians have a dual responsibility to fairness. This is a politician in an ACTIVE election. Not only are you to be fair in this article on a micro level, but you also have a duty to the image of NPOV for Wikipedia as a whole. Here you are so armed to stuff Palin's article full of religious controversy, creating a whole section just to thump on her religion (and it IS bigotry), while you completely protect Obama! And don't throw at me the excuse that these are two different articles that is PRECISELY THE POINT, and you are using that excuse as a loophoole to denigrate the entire image of wikipedia as being POV. If you are honorable wikipedians, you will choose one of two options: you will either include a section in Obama's article for religion and make mention of the fact that he attended a black liberation church (like you make mention of Palin attending a pentecostal church), or you will remove the religion section from Palin. Right now, all of you are complicit on pervasive macro-bias on wikipedia. You have a duty to fairness and NPOV and in an active election, that duty extends beyond this one single article, but must take into account the individuals Palin is competing against and their articles as well. The excuse of "thats THEIR article" is just a sham and an utter double-standard, and is a terrible discredit to the reputation of Wikipedia. I am posting a similar notice on Palin's article. Fair-minded wikipedians can come together than present a fair portrait of the candidates, not simply as isolated articles, but in reference to each other, since this is an active election. Because what is happening on Wikipedia right now is POV, and no amount of fallacy and rationalization will change this objective fact. I am a fair person, I support including a religion section on Palin, if it is done on Obama. If it is not done on Obama, your duty to macro-fairness demands that you remove it from Palin's article. Far more press coverage exists over Obama's religion than Palin, and you simply cannot justify including Palin's theology (pentecostal) while not including Obama's (black liberation). Do the right thing, and be fair! Though, considering the typical wikipedian is a white male aged 35 and under, a tekkie, and socialist-leaning, I don't expect fairness. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.46.2.202 (talk) 06:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Calling the efforts of our volunteer editors a "sham" or "double standard", young, "socialist", etc., makes it hard to take seriously what you say, and suggests -- no, rather states explicitly -- that your motives are inconsistent with our goals. But I will give it a try. The above is a fundamental misunderstanding of the point of Wikipedia and the editing process. We are here to write an encyclopedia, not to participate in an election. Neutrality and balance are two very different things. Writing good articles is not a matter of apportioning praise and blame among political candidates so that they are evenly helped or hindered by the encyclopedia, or that their articles are all symmetrical across some arbitrarily placed mirror of election rivals. If I want to improve one article, I have absolutely no call or responsibility to improve some other article. Beyond misunderstanding Wikipedia, the above also seems to misunderstand the facts. Things said in the encyclopedia must have solid sources. It is clear that Palin has a Pentecostal background (though it is not at all clear that she subscribes to their practices or beliefs). There is no legitimate support for a claim that Obama subscribes to black liberation theology. Each claim must stand on its own merits, in its own article, and if true, must face a number of other considerations about due weight, relevance, neutral editing, where to put content, etc. Creating symmetrical articles is not one of those considerations around here. Wikidemon (talk) 06:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- The moment you accused Wikipedia volunteers here of being bigots, you lost whatever argument you had. Let me make something perfectly clear, and then I propose this discussion be closed as unproductive: I have never edited Sarah Palin's article. I have never involved myself with the discussions on her article's talk page. I am not interested in editing in that particular biography. My lack of editing is not, and cannot be construed to be, a case of supposed "bigotry." The editors who work in that article are other people, and whatever biases or perspectives they may possess, they are not mine. And I will not stand for personal attacks and insults against wide swaths of Wikipedia editors in good standing, myself included. I hope I make myself clear. --GoodDamon 15:21, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The Sourcing of Ayers Ties Founded on Documentation
The documentation behind the Ayers sourcing is largely rooted in Jerome Corsi's book -- ObamaNation. So the question is, what books did Corsi write that led to any libel lawsuits? Corsi clearly had an impact on the last presidential election, and while exhortations were used to discredit the Swiftboat Vets for Truth, no slander has yet been proved. In fact, it would appear that the true mainstream [the Voter] did agree and still does agree with the Swiftboat Vets for Truth.
Thus, using the last election to 'discredit' Jerome Corsi is empty. He is, as far as I can conclude, time tested. Thus, what footnotes in his heavily footnoted book, ObamaNation, are discredited? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arthur Wildfire March (talk • contribs) 15:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting question... and one entirely unsuited to this article. Might I propose you bring that question to The Obama Nation? This is Obama's WP:BLP page. Go to the other page, and you will find a wealth of information, including reasons why the book may not pass muster as a reliable source. --GoodDamon 15:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I'm not sure what you're getting at but it does not seem to have anything to do with improving this article, which is about Obama rather than Corsi's book. Libel suits and voter opinion are not a test of reliability - politicians do not sue each other over political attacks. Rather, as in this case some books are repudiated by neutral fact-checking analysis by authors far more reputable than the book author. Corsi's book would not be a reliable source for content in this article because the book is partisan and has been widely criticized as containing substantial inaccuracies. Moreover, the reason we do not report various scandals described in your earlier post is only partly that they are poorly sourced. There are other key policies, such as maintaining a neutral point of view and only covering things in proportion to their due weight. After extensive discussion and dozens failed proposals, a consensus has remained that various supposed criticisms, scandals, etc. that are primarily related to the current election should be reported if at all in articles relating to the election, not this article, which is a lifetime biography of the person. Wikidemon (talk) 15:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
"conventional weapons" -> "firearms" in the lede?
"Conventional weapons" is a pretty odd term for small arms. Isn't there anything better? I'm aware that might be the term that the legislation itself uses, but can we afford to take a slight hit on direct accuracy here for the sake of making the article more accessible? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 16:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- In terms of common usage, conventional weapons usually means anything that won't cause annihilation of humanity (ie: guns, knives, sticks, etc), and the term generally applies to international relations regarding use of weapons. Is this what it is referring to? .:davumaya:. 00:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Typically, "Conventional weapons" refers to any non nuclear explosive. (TNT, nitroglycrine, C4, ect.)98.108.73.89 (talk) 22:31, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Barack - Law Review
I saw that Barack made it to the Harvard Law Review partly through a writing competition. Does anyone know the titles of his legal writings, or have copies to post? I think it would be interesting to see what he wrote. 140.239.202.130 (talk) 23:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC) William
He has published no legal scholarship at all according to this Equaaldoors (talk) 23:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- The question was not about his time at University of Chicago, it was about his time as editor of the Harvard Law Review. Are you claiming that he didn't actually write anything there? --Loonymonkey (talk) 00:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Profession: Attorney?
Why does the infobox list his profession as an attorney? Surely not everyone who was once an attorney or who holds a law degree is currently list as being an attorney? Shouldn't it be Senator or politician?LedRush (talk) 18:13, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- For some reason people like to know what politicians did before they became politicians. Obama was a practicing law firm lawyer for about 10 years, which overlapped his time in politics. Wikidemon (talk) 19:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- So how many cases did he try? 68.46.183.96 (talk) 09:12, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, and for those people they can read the part of the bio that talks about his past jobs (like the 3-plus years he spent as an attorney). The info box should be for a current occupation unless otherwise stated.LedRush (talk) 19:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I just looked at the other candidates' pages, and they state "Politician" plus whatever they did before (though Palin's seems not quite honest to me). So I will keep Attorney and add Politician. Ok?LedRush (talk) 19:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Go for it. I agree with you on this, and think most people would. It's good to keep the largest significant portion of his career there, but it's also good to list his current position. --GoodDamon 20:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I just looked at the other candidates' pages, and they state "Politician" plus whatever they did before (though Palin's seems not quite honest to me). So I will keep Attorney and add Politician. Ok?LedRush (talk) 19:59, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Controversies
There needs to be a section on Obama's earmarks requests ($740 million) that he requested in the US Senate from 2005-2007
Also, there ought to be a mention of his "Present" votes in the Senate since this is a key issue in in the presidential campaign. Here is the Washington Post reference sheet.
This article mentions the controversy over Obama's abortion record but does not mention what it was about. Here is a link to his interview with CBN where he calls the National Right To Life Committee liars. And here is a link to the NRTLC's allegations. James 21:40, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't the presidential campaign article. This is a biography about Obama's entire life. I suggest you bring your suggestions to Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. In terms of the man's life, I don't think the earmarks he's requested as Senator have any more bearing than, for instance, John McCain's (whose article I just checked; it doesn't go into earmarks, except by way of mentioning Mr. McCain's overall stance against most of them). You have to consider such factors as recentism and weight here. There are articles, such as the campaign ones, where mention of recent allegations and political discussions makes perfect sense, but that doesn't really apply in a biography unless a reliable source establishes its weight in comparison to the rest of the individual's life. And again, I'd like to remind you that this article is written in summary style, meaning the more detailed information belongs in the sub-articles, while the bird's-eye-view stuff goes in the main one. --GoodDamon 06:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't the presidential campaign article. This is a biography about Obama's entire life. Without the presidential campaign, Barack Obama's entire life history would be worth about 250 words here. He is no more notable than any other freshman senator in the US Senate. We should be devoting more space to the presidential campaign, to provide more details. Curious bystander (talk) 15:48, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Well, McCain has reportedly never requested an earmark. I would think that is an important aspect in the US Senate portion of Sen. Obama's life story. Just as the "Keating Five" scandal is significant in the McCain article (mentioned three times). Surely if the legislation Obama has sponsored is inclusive in summary style, then his voting record is. If he had had a 30 or 40 year record like Biden or McCain, then, yes, it would be cumbersome. But even so, it would be a severe oversight to fail to include a LINK to a Biden/McCain voting record article if one existed. But Sen. Obama has only a three and 1/2 year record, thus it is not a great burden to link to, say, a Washington Post article that summarizes his record. For that matter, I don't understand why there is not link to the Obama–Ayers controversy. Obama launched his Senate campaign in Ayers's living room, and they were political allies for almost 20 years. If the Wright and Rezco associations are significant, then I would think Ayers deserves a mention. None of this would undermine the summary style of the article. It would merely avoid confusion as to why there are holes in his bio. James 09:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.28.6.153 (talk)
- This is not to say anything one way or the other about the quality of the earmarks, but Mr. McCain has requested them before. He asked for $10 million for the University of Arizona in 2006, and in 2003, he requested $14.3 million in a defense appropriations bill for Luke Air Force Base. Those are earmarks. But all that aside, may I suggest reading the sub-articles to see if the information you would like to add is already there? --GoodDamon 16:23, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Jeremiah Wright
The Jeremiah Wright paragraph is written in a way that strongly implies an inaccurate time-line. It says "In March 2008, a controversy broke out concerning Obama's former pastor of 20 years, Jeremiah Wright. After ABC News broadcast clips of his racially and politically charged sermons, Obama responded by condemning Wright's remarks and ending Wright's relationship with the campaign. Obama delivered a speech, during the controversy, entitled "A More Perfect Union" that addressed issues of race. Obama subsequently resigned from Trinity "to avoid the impression that he endorsed the entire range of opinions expressed at that church." But of course, in the More Perfect Union speech (his response to the sermons) he disassociated himself with Wright's comments but refused to denounce Wright or to end his relationship with him. He ended his relationship with Rev. Wright 6 weeks later after an embassing National Press Club appearance. To say Sen Obama "subsequently" resigned Trinity suggests it occurred shortly after ending his relationship with Wright and for the same reason. But of course it occured weeks later after a sermon by the new pastor and by Father Pfleger. Summary style should avoide extensive details, but it should not leave a significantly false impression. James 10:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- In response to the various controversies proposed for inclusion here, where is there a hole in the bio? Per summary style, NPOV, etc., we cover in the BLP article only things that are biographically relevant. With respect to earmarks nearly every member of both houses of Congress has their hand in earmarks. McCain, as a Senator, is known for a number of good government initiatives relating to campaign finance, spending, etc., so it makes some sense to mention that briefly in his article as a defining point of his long career in office. That doesn't mean that we should mention in every other Senator's bio that they were not reformers. The Wright, Rezko, and Ayers matters were discussed to death and we arrived as a group after months of hand-wringing at a consensus as to how much weight to give each issue here. In Ayers' case that is none because Ayers is not significant to Obama's life. Ayers did not launch Obama's career - that is just an opposition talking point. He is one of dozens to hundreds of Chicago constituents with whom Obama dealt at that level. That Obama's opponents make political hay of it because Ayers' past is supposedly unacceptable in the context of a presidential election is at most an issue to the campaign, where the matter is covered. Rezko by contrast is marginally notable to Obama's life as a bona fide but minor scandal, and someone Obama was much closer to. And Wright caused a blow-up with Obama's church and religion, which is clearly a lot closer to the core of his life story. Even if you take it out of the context of the current election, if you are a person of color and church is a big part of your civic and personal life, and you quit your church in protest (or embarrassment, pressure, disgust, whatever) because the church preachers take a divisive position on race, it's fair to call that a life issue. Buying a home and having a major patron / sponsor like Rezko is a life issue. An incidental professional brush with a civic leader with a controversial past, and playing by one of the rules of the game professionally, are not life issues. The weight of the sources bear this out. Outside of blogs, opinion pieces, and partisan journalism you see almost no mention of these things, other than factual reporting that partisans are making an issue of it. Wright and Rezko probably take up too much space in the article as it is but they are relatively complex issues that are hard to do justice in a brief mention. We link from here to articles where they are discussed in more detail. Wikidemon (talk) 14:53, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- There is a gaping hole in this bio that consists of William Ayers, more details about Rezko, and more details about Wright. So much effort has been poured into making these mentions as amputated as possible, that ambiguities have arisen. More details are appropriate. Curious bystander (talk) 15:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Barack Obama II should be Barack Obama, Jr.
Please check if this is correct and change if not.
Thanks,
Fredstang (talk) 16:19, 12 September 2008 (UTC)Fred
- If you look at the source provided, it shows his birth certificate, and the correct name. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:18, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- i think it comes down to the name obama uses today, just how is he on the ballot. if he uses junior the article should say Jr. [a birth certificate does NOT mark you for life.] I have NOT used my given name in 40 years. I did run for office once and was know by AL not ALAN. I campaigned as AL and i was on the ballot as AL, NOT ALAN. i would object to being called something other then my chosen identity!!! if obama use Jr. instead of the II that is how this article should read. Buzzards27 (talk) 15:17, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Education and Experience
The article mentions that Senator Obama received a BA from Columbia and that he majored in Political Science. It is reasonable to infer that his BA is in Political Science (isn't that usually a BS though? I guess it depends on the conferring institution.). Just wondering if the article could state this more specifically (ex, " a BA in Political Science with a minor in ...."). Also, I am wondering if Senator Obama has any actual EXECUTIVE experience directly relevant to the EXECUTIVE office of President of the United States of America (for example, EXECUTIVE offices such as Mayor or Governor), or is his experience only in Legislative office (senator) and social work? I understand that he has no military service what-so-ever so there is no reason to ask about that subject. Thanks!
- This would be Barack Obama's biography article. Based on the unnecessary allcaps and thinly veiled contempt, I'm inclined to direct you towards either:
- The campaign article - The issues, as such, that you mention more properly belong there.
- WP:SOAP - Wikipedia is not a forum for you to air your political opinions.
- I hope you find this helpful. --GoodDamon 17:17, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Obama's full-time chief executive experience by age 30:
- three years as executive director of the Developing Communities Project
- one year as president of the Harvard Law Review
- six months as executive director of Illinois Project Vote!
- Obama has also served as chief executive of his three campaigns for state office and his three campaigns for federal office, including:
- his successful 21-month U.S. Senate Democratic primary campaign in Illinois that led to his March 2004 come-from-behind surprise landslide victory in the most expensive U.S. Senate primary election campaign in history
- his successful 20-month U.S. Presidential Democratic primary campaign (visiting 48 states and 8 countries) that led to his August 2008 U.S. Presidential nomination in the most expensive election campaign in history
- Newross (talk) 20:39, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Obama's full-time chief executive experience by age 30:
Contempt? No, just ligitimate questions (although, you are correct, I do not prefer this candidate at this time). Allcaps, I wanted to get your attention to that specific word because it seems that people are either not grasping or intentionally overlooking the logical relevance of executive experience to becoming President (such as mayor, governor, business owner, or executive officer (ex, military: captain, civilian: CEO). I will check out the links you provided and thank you for the assumption of good-faith as I am really being serious (I wouldn't do it here but if I wanted to express political oppinion and spout critisisms and talking points I would be typing alot more than this). I will use the points and links that you both have provided while considering my final choice to vote. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.46 (talk) 21:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- This whole "executive experience" thing is a meme to come out of the current election. It is not generally considered a qualification for office. In the past, and more broadly, terms like "leadership", "vision", "organization", "experience" and so on have been more prevalent as campaign selling points. Occasionally somebody's business experience leading a for-profit company (or being in charge of a large military operation, or a large wing of government) is held out as real-world experience, but not "executive experience" in the abstract. Being a small town mayor, head of a small group of lobbyists, or independent owner of a small business may or may not give you some common sense but it is a completely different thing with different skill sets than supervising tens of thousands to millions of underlings. In fact, for most candidates supervising their own campaign and office staff is the closest they will ever come before the election to actually being personally in charge of anything. The two main routes to the Presidency historically have been Congress (generally the Senate) and being state governor. Very few have gone directly from business, mayorship, or other offices. But none of this is terribly relevant to an article like this that describes Obama's biography. He did what he did in his life. Whether you or anyone else feels that qualifies him for office is something to take into the polling station, not an encyclopedia article (unless it is well sourced and notable as a campaign issue, in which case it might go in a campaign-related article). Wikidemon (talk) 21:25, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- The question of executive experience is not a meme. It is a legitimate question. It is generally considered a qualification for the office of president. All candidate who have executive experience talk about their experience. All candidates who lack such experience dismiss its importance, but there is no substitute for experience. Sarah Palin has just as much experience in elected office as Barack Obama, and he has two years of executive experience in government where he has none; and she's not the one running for president. I support Barack Obama and will be voting for him (unless he's indicted for something before the election), I've donated money and even more valuable time to his campaign, but I recognize that executive experience is a legitimate criticism. Curious bystander (talk) 15:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your claimed political position is irrelevant, and does not offset editing the article for the task of introducing derogatory material about Obama. The line about "executive experience" does reflect Republican criticism of Obama and defense of Palin. It is transparent and unconvincing. Nobody could seriously compare Palin's experience to Obama's. Again, the "executive experience" thing was not generally described this way and has not generally been considered a relevant qualification for the presidency or, frankly, any other class of job in America. High-level experience and responsibilities in relevant jobs, yes. The fact of it being "executive" per se, no. Wikidemon (talk) 16:36, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Seems to me that executive experience for an executive position would logically be relevant and I do think that the good points previously noted highlighting senator Obama's would be in no way derogatory, in-fact beneficial. Why so touchy about this topic? I seriously wanted to know when I asked and am now pretty surprised at the level of defense that seems to be expressed. I honestly do not think that if someone were applying for an executive position, say something as important as CEO of a Bank (or President of the United States), that he or she would be seriously considered if he or she had no previous relevant executive experience (as is apparently not the case as noted by our friend in this discussion Newross). Please people, chill out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.0.36 (talk) 21:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Featured picture
![](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Obama_Portrait_2006.jpg/220px-Obama_Portrait_2006.jpg)
Question: Why is that we aren't using the Featured Picture Image:Obama Portrait 2006 trimmed.jpg in this article? We should always be striving to use our featured content. Even if it's not the infobox, we can find room for this photo? Thanks. howcheng {chat} 18:47, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see the need. There are plenty of pictures of Obama in the article already, and I'm not sure of the context with which we could use this one. It's certainly a dramatic photo, but it would probably go better in a sub-article that includes information about that particular speech. --GoodDamon 18:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where it fits in with the article, unfortunately. California Proposition 87 (2006) seems to be short on images.. Perhaps there? --Bobblehead (rants) 19:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm. Fits thematically, might work... --GoodDamon 19:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- But where? The only place I can see is if we replace Image:Barack Obama in New Hampshire.jpg with it and mention he was campaigning on behalf of Prop 87. --Bobblehead (rants) 19:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- You know, the more I look at it, the more I like it... and the more I can't figure out where to put it. It's a really detailed, really dramatic picture, but I frankly think Image:Barack Obama in New Hampshire.jpg is better suited to its current location in that article. I'm stumped. I'd like to place it somewhere, but haven't been able to figure out where. --GoodDamon 20:39, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- But where? The only place I can see is if we replace Image:Barack Obama in New Hampshire.jpg with it and mention he was campaigning on behalf of Prop 87. --Bobblehead (rants) 19:58, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- Hmmm. Fits thematically, might work... --GoodDamon 19:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure where it fits in with the article, unfortunately. California Proposition 87 (2006) seems to be short on images.. Perhaps there? --Bobblehead (rants) 19:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
- sorry, damon but i think you first impression is correct. the intent of this photo is to show an angry black man discontented from the people, the new hampshire puts obama into the crowd he is speaking to, much better photo. Buzzards27 (talk) 15:08, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- This picture is great, it is very nice with the light and the resolution is high. Perhaps it can be at the lower sections? 83.108.225.40 (talk) 06:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- I would cordially recommend that it should be used to replace another, less striking photo. Perhaps the photo of Obama playing basketball. Curious bystander (talk) 15:39, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Replace the dreadful lead image! This one is much better. Setwisohi (talk) 16:02, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
leave this image out, no good reason served. intent of inclusion apears to be to demean obama [image tends to look frightening]. Buzzards27 (talk) 17:14, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- "Intent of inclusion apears to be to demean obama"? Ouch! It's certainly not my intent. And I can't see why you think it is the intent of others. But I'm sure you don't mean it the way it reads. Setwisohi (talk) 19:56, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- yeah, your intent is pretty clear, if that5 isn't your intent drop the request for inclusion. the photo leave people with a FIRST impression that obama is an angry black man they should somehow fear. you know, don't vote for him becuz he is a little uppity...
- anyone can capture a photo of someone in mid word and use it to create a negative caricature of that person. i do not think this article is the place for it. why don't you take your photo over to the free republic? they'll love it there. Buzzards27 (talk) 15:00, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Am I the only one who finds this comment rude? 90.231.2.252 (talk) 17:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- I do not like this image either. The lighting is kinda "artsy", which may make a good photo, but not particularly a good factual representation of the subject. It also seems to connote "angry" or "threatening" in the facial expression rather than something more neutral. LotLE×talk 19:52, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed, it's a nice photo but it does not present a well-rounded straightforward view of the candidate, so not very encyclopedic. Wikidemon (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- I don't quite get the same hit off of it of "angry" that other people are seeing, but I just can't find a suitable location for it. My main problem with it is that, however dramatic the photograph is, it lacks the visual context that would make it a suitable replacement for other photos. It's a shame, as it really is a good photo, but I have to agree with Wikidemon that it's not an encyclopedic photo. Encyclopedic photos don't lack context. --GoodDamon 17:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Sarah Palin (main image) vs Barack Obama (main image)
The lead image of Palin is much more flattering than the lead image of Obama. Hers is 3/4 profile and smart-casual clothes outdoors. His is formal, front on, indoors and rather off-putting. Can't we change these so that both are of a kind? Setwisohi (talk) 09:24, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
(Sorry, not being clear: my point being that we need to be fair and that the above image of Obama would be much more balanced). Setwisohi (talk) 09:27, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- I actually think the Obama one is much better...Palin's is unflattering and informal...not vice presidential at all. Obama's is nice and stately...it inspires confidence.LedRush (talk) 13:17, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
"I actually think the Obama one is much better...Palin's is unflattering and informal...not vice presidential at all. Obama's is nice and stately...it inspires confidence." Just like this place, filled with people that make everything you read on this site biased. Moderators do no good, either. It's always a double standard, on Palin's page vs. Obama's page, there are plenty of issues Obama has gone back on his word on because it might not look favorable to a Presidential Nominee, but you won't read about it here because the only people who edit and have any real say here are supporters of Obama or the Democratic party. You really can't read anything these days without some sort of sick political inspired hidden agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.218.215 (talk) 12:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Why delete my original submission, I thought this site was for people to edit with constructive points?
use of non-english letters in pronounciation of obama's name
sorry, but for the life of me i CANNOT understand why foreign language letters would be used to aid in the English pronunciation of Obama's name. the correct English letters should be used to aid in the proper pronunciation of his name.
just becuz his name has foreign origins does NOT justify the use of foreign language letters. without knowing these letters i have no idea how they would be pronounced. seems like a rather transparate attempt to imply the type of sterotypes that the new yorker mag. cover noted.
i believe that obama's family origins are discussed in the main article and there is no need to add to that with he use of foreign letters that the average person just would not understand or know how to pronounce.
PLEASE correct using proper english pronounciation.
i found this:
Barack Hussein Obama II (pronounced: bah-ROCK hoo-SAIN o-BAH-mah)
[3] Buzzards27 (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- This article, like probably a majority of all other biographies (and also many articles on place names, etc) gives an IPA pronunciation of the subject's name. It's true that International Phonentic Alphabet is not necessarily widely known, but it gives an unambiguous pronunciation of names and terms, unlike a dialect-specific pseudo-spelling like that suggested above. Some articles also give a link to an audio file of a name as pronounced; that wouldn't be bad to have here, if someone creates it. LotLE×talk 19:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- IPA is an encyclopedic standard used world wide, and is the standard in Wikipedia as well per Wikipedia:Manual of Style. -- Rick Block (talk) 19:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
i do note that the style guide says that phonetic pronunciations can be used in addition to the ipa pronunciation. is there a good reason NOT to use the one i suggested?
i also wonder why some think this ipa is BETTER than simple phonetic pronunciations. not to start any conspiracy theories but i noticed that the ipa 'standard' seemed to become the standard around the time [sept 2007] obama began running for office. any correlation there?
is there a consensus that the phonetic pronunciation be added to this section?
Buzzards27 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:49, 14 September 2008 (UTC).
Wikidemon, stop reverting
You're trying to start an edit war, Wikidemon. I have inserted neutrally written and impeccably sourced material about recent trends in polling in the presidential campaign. This is not a hagiography. If you want to revert it, gain consensus for your reversion. Curious bystander (talk) 16:31, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your comment here is inappropriate per article probation, and you should refactor or remove it. Your attack on me here is unwelcome and inappropriate. Do not edit tendentiously. If you want to make disputed changes you are free to seek consensus here. Wikidemon (talk) 16:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
- I think the trend itself is notable, or at least as notable as anything that is likely to itself change over the next 60 days, but I would suggest it be included in either the McCain article under 2008 Presidential election section, the Palin section Under 2008 Presidential election section, both, or neither. It doesn't appear to me to fit here, as it is really about McCain/Palin, not Obama. Just my 2 cents.--Textmatters (talk) 16:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Talk page recently blanked
Philz4555 blanked other people's text and posted his opinion in its place. Look at the difference between his edit and my revert. This cannot be assumed good faith. Who is with me? Duuude007 (talk) 02:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- Already reported. --Floridianed (talk) 03:08, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Edit request
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racist slander contained in opening line - please remove immediately as it is offensive to blacks and Muslims
On the page it says, "Obama co-sponsored the Honest Leadership and Open Government Act", while drilling into the Act's page it clearly says he did not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.218.2.218 (talk) 13:54, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Chairman of the Senate's subcommittee on European Affairs
It should be noted that there have been no meetings of this subcommittee while Obama has chaired it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carlfahl (talk • contribs) 19:20, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
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