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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 86.89.102.98 (talk) at 09:36, 13 January 2009 (→‎Criticisms). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Featured articleBarack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 4, 2008.
In the news Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 12, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
August 18, 2004Today's featured articleMain Page
January 23, 2007Featured article reviewKept
July 26, 2007Featured article reviewKept
April 15, 2008Featured article reviewKept
September 19, 2008Featured article reviewKept
November 4, 2008Today's featured articleMain Page
December 2, 2008Featured article reviewKept
In the news A news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on November 5, 2008.
Current status: Featured article


Redundant discussions

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an article or section related to the Transition Team? Chadlupkes (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The "Race/ethnicity" section has (presumably by "Wikidemon", the self-styled "owner" of this page) not just been consolidated or shifted to another already existing section: it has, in effect, simply been removed. The contents are no longer available unless one presses a special link to enter the "archive". Wikipedia guidelines explicitly forbid tampering with other contributors' material on a Talk Page. The current treatment of the "Race/ethnicity" section (rendering none of the contributions visible on the main Talk Page, effectively "hiding" it all inside an "archive") is a violation of these guidelines.Jakob37 (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Anything that can be done to speed the loading of this talk page up, I'm all for it. It's taking forever to load, and old issues that have been discussed ad infinitum don't need to be here. It's hard enough to discuss current issues as it is. Dayewalker (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, there are several other "overly large" sections that could be archived. If User#1 thinks that Topic X is too long and boring, then that user may, without further ado, hide its contents inside an archive. But then User#2 thinks that Topic Y is too long and boring, so that user hides Topic Y's material inside an archive, although User#1 thinks it should stay visible. Is that how it's going to work?Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In regards to the issue of African-American, mixed race, Black, designation by oneself vs. by others, etc., this talk page has spiraled completely out of control. I was rather miffed a day or two ago to find that my contributions, along with others, on the subject had, without any consultation, suddenly been stuffed into an archive, and now I am doubly miffed to see that the same subject has grown another head, even much larger than the material subjected to archiving, and yet nobody is archiving it this time -- quite UNFAIR. In any case, the more important point I would like to raise is that 95% to 99% of the contributions on these interconnected topics have no PARTICULAR connection to Obama; these issues are part of the socio-political nature of American (U.S.) life. Since there seems to be no lack of Wiki-editors who love to manipulate other people's contributions, may I suggest that all this material, instead of being archived (effectively out-of-sight, out-of-mind), be used to construct a separate article on "race attitudes in the U.S." or something to that effect (cf. my comment in "Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama" ). The Obama article itself should contain an appropriately brief discussion of Obama's relationship to these issues, followed by a hyperlink to the (proposed) article where these issues are described/discussed in the larger context that they deserve. And the Obama Talk-Page will then hopefully return to a focus on Obama himself. The way that Obama has dealt with these issues is not so different from the way thousands or even millions of other people have done.Jakob37 (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

69.134.20.90 (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC) i have come to notice that some of the people on this board are extremely racist and wont admit in the text of the article that obama is half white ..i understand the importance to some of the people on here that he be considered black but face facts he isnt.. he is listed as the first african american when in fact ,he isnt ..he might be the first half african american ever elected then when a true african american is elected you wont have to undo all the lies you have spouted about this one.this is afterall,a place where people come for knowledge not some general idea that is put forth by some people[reply]

Your comments are totally off base from beginning to end. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC) bugs , nice brush off if i am so offbase then why isnt it mentioned anywhere in the text about his white hertitage..people are wanting to claim his citzenship but not the people who gave him the right to that citizenship his black father was not a citizen so why is everyone harping on his race and wont acknowledge the white side ..maybe if this source were more fair to other people there wouldnt be the rage about how a man with dual citizenship got elected president or about where he was born when anybody can have a birth certficate made up with about 30 minutes planning just a little research i can be anybody with a legitament birth certficate if you want to fair to the readers and to the man himself at least make it fair[reply]

Have you bothered to read past the first paragraph? Like where it states that his mother was white? Oh, and have you found any reliable sources that don't call him "the first African American President"? Of course he's African American. He's also English American. But that last part is hardly news, as most every President has been European American. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC) yes i read the entire article and have seen lots of things about his life not published or ignored but the point i am making which you seem to be dodging he is only half and should be noted that way.. it is not as if it is hidden by him or anybody else if you were half italian 1/4 english and 1/4 russian would you want to be considered just russian ..he is english arabian and kenyan[reply]

We describe him the way the reliable sources describe him. And this has been already discussed at length. Your comments bring nothing new to the discussion. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC) so you need to change the slogan from "the free encyclopedia" to the free " follow the masses rumormill" if you cant post truths about somebody[reply]

First rule: Wikipedia bases its information on reliable sources, not on the "rumormill" and not on someone's opinion of the "truth". Second rule: Kindly put your 4 tildes at the END of your comments rather than the beginning. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

my apologies for posting incorectly ,but back to the main argument so you are saying that it isnt a reliable source that he is half white. if it is a reliable source it should be noted in the lead paragragh instead of half way down on one line69.134.20.90 (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We go by reliable sources, and the wording is proper on that basis. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since I'm a bit intimidated by the attention this article receives, I'm not going to repeat an edit I've had to make several times in the past without some feedback. In the "Cultural and Political Image" section, it states: "With his Kenyan father and white American mother". This is a minor issue, but I think that "white" should be removed, simply because it is unnecessary. That he is of mixed ancestry is well-documented throughout the article. Originally, because I hate the whole concept of race, I wanted all mention of "black" (instead of Luo) and "white" (instead of English/American) removed, but as I am mostly satisfied with the White American article in how it addresses race perceptions in America, it works. The restating of it in the Cultural and Political Image section seems redundant if not obsessive. —GodhevalT C W 19:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the removal of the term "white", just as I wouldn't use "black" to describe Obama or his father. Since we are talking about the "Cultural and Political Image" section, I think describing his mother as European American would be appropriate. --Evb-wiki (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking it was redundant to mention ethnicity again at all - his father is listed simply as Kenyan, so the mother should be American. If there is need to mention ethnicity again, then either the used White American or European American are fine.—GodhevalT C W 20:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Picture?

Why was that previous picture of Barack Obama with his arms crossed replaced? I saw nothing wrong with it. The new picture is too alike and almost mirrors his portrait as Senator of Illinois. - 64.91.158.52 (talk) 00:07, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I dislike the new picture as well and put my name on the list to revert back to the previous picture or perhaps a close-up verson of it. The new picture is out of focus, and does not look like a set-up prepared portrait, but rather a photo that might have been taken at a campaign rally. Unak78 (talk) 12:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Somewhere there must be a picture of him wearing a less ugly tie. PhGustaf (talk) 00:46, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Why is there no mention of the very reliable fact that Barak Obama's citizenship is in question, that there have been at least a dozen court cases filed challenging it and that the supreme court is still examining the legitimacy of the claims? This is a veri important aspect of Barak Obama's life and and a crucial concern of all Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthbeknown67 (talk • contribs) 19:37, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The short answer is that every case has been rejected and it has not had a strong impact on his life since nothing came of them. There is also seperate page about them. This has been discussed and rejected multiple times so unless something significant happens there is no chance of inclusion. --76.66.188.103 (talk) 04:08, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kenya, Yet Again

I'm sorry, I placed my previous post in the wrong location. The fact that Obama's citizenship is in question and cases challenging it are under review by The Supreme Court of the United States is not open for debate and is an essential part of any Barak Obama biography. Here is a man who is to be the next president of our great country who may very well have been born in Kenya, as is clearly stated by his own grandmother. If the same questions were facing a republican candidate wiki would surely make at least a minor note of it. Please be fair as you continually ask those who contribute to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Truthbeknown67 (talk • contribs) 19:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The short answer is this - no. The slightly long answer is - we've discussed this to death and the answer is no. Someone else might provide you with a longer answer. --Cameron Scott (talk) 19:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would support inclusion if there is a reference provided and it can be verified. I'm a big supporter of Barack Obama but if there is a case pending against him in the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court has agreed to hear it (meaning it has merit) this should be mentioned. Truthbeknown67, do you have a reliable source? DegenFarang (talk) 03:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Degen, as far as I know his grandmother didn't understand the odd questions at first and once someone explained to her that she was being asked where Obama was born, she said Hawaii. The supreme court has had the opportunity to look at these "issues" a couple of times and hasn't given the complainants the time of day. This is one of those discussion brought up here all the time.LedRush (talk) 03:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I read the conspiracy page after reading this. Truthbeknown67, if the Supreme court refused to hear the case you can be fairly sure there is no merit to it, and thus it does not deserve inclusion here. That would be very much like including allegations of him being a terrorist etc etc. This is not the place for that DegenFarang (talk) 05:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sectioning

This article has a great deal of top-level sections (14) and very few subsections (2). This makes the table of contents of limited use and gives an unrealistic weight to less important topics (i.e. inauguration). I suggest we merge some of the sections that cover similar topics. The George W. Bush article for example makes do with nine top-level sections, and uses appropriate subsections. Thoughts? Skomorokh 18:58, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and have made several changes to the sectioning in the article. Tell me what you think. Altruistic Egotist (talk) 19:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Racist and insensitive jokes made by CBC

Several anchors on the CBC made some REALLY tasteless racial jokes 1 2 3 4 5 on Obama and it's all the rage in Canada on the news. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which is in no way relevant to this article. PhGustaf (talk) 22:36, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Need to add see also page with the citizenship article

the citizenship article has no right to be in the main article but we should mention it in the see also heading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories

it's not biased and fair and balanced.who agrees? manchurian candidate 05:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurian candidate (talk • contribs)

It would be tromping very closely on WP:UNDUE. I dunno. Does ubiquity trump credibility enough for a link here to the conspiracy page? I tend to say not, but it might at least save us from tramping out this issue every other day. PhGustaf (talk) 05:57, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For recent extensive discussion on this rejected proposal see Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_46#Info_needed_regarding_conspiracy_theorists --Modocc (talk) 17:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Barack H. Obama aparently travelled on an Indonesian passport to Pakistan.

Archiving section. This has been discussed before and material without a shred of verifiability has no place in a biography of a living person. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

According to Mr. Obama's own biography he traveled on an Indonesian passport to Pakistan. I suggest adding 'Indonesian' as an additional Nationality, on another note Barry Soetorno appears to be his (real) Indonesian name. Source: http://www.obamacrimes.com/ (i'm not affiliated, just interested in this piece of info) Editors can delete this if they believe its not relevant; I thought it could be. I agree with the posting above this one, yet is it an established fact that Mr. Obama has an Indonesian passport ? If so, this needs to be mentioned at the front page, after proper verification, even with his Indonesian name ?

indonesia does not allow dual citizenship. owning indonesian passport does not necessarily means that he is/was indonesian. if obama is indeed indonesian citizen, he would be required to give it up at the age of 17 if he choose his american citizenship w_tanoto (talk) 16:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
okay, tnx, IMHO facts are hard to come by regarding this man; I would *really* like to leave this one to the experts. apparently he traveled to Pakistan when he was 20, which at that time was not accessible by an US passport. So therefore to enter the country he had to use his Indonesian to get in; and wasn't carrying an US passport. Well... Doesn't look like an easy thing I've started here. Sorry :) I'll leave it here, check back later.
Start by verifying the assertion that he couldn't travel to Pakistan on a US passport. Best I know, that's not the case. PhGustaf (talk) 19:46, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

why

can't i edit this article? Expl0sIILPEXPLoSiil (talk) 16:42, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article is semi-protected. You can't edit it if your account is less than a few days (three, I think) old. PhGustaf (talk) 16:48, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Smoking

Obama is clearly a non-smoker. Anybody saying he is still a smoker is calling him a liar. All we have to go on is his word here and he has said that he has been able to quit successfully with the help of nicorrette gum. That means he quit. Smokers and non-smokers are going to disagree about the definition of quitting I guess, based upon a review of the previous arguments, however some reference needs to be made to this. If you asked Obama he would tell you he has quit. We do not have the right to say with certainty that he is lying by publishing the opposite, this is the biography of a living person after all DegenFarang (talk) 03:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC) ===former smoker===LaidOff (talk) 03:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed a lot here before, including here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_46
Just so you know... and the sources say that he says he's quit, and the sources say that he sometimes smokes. That's why the current language is in there.LedRush (talk) 03:35, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then the wording needs to reflect that. Wikipedia is to have a neutral point of view. This wording is not neutral. There are three choices...he is a smoker, he is a non-smoker or he is currently trying to quit (either successfully or unsuccessfully). The neutral point of view here is to say that he is currently trying to quit. However the article states he failed at those efforts and is currently a smoker. False and non-neutral.DegenFarang (talk) 03:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps we are interpreting the language differently. I read this as saying that he is trying to quit, and like most people it takes a while. The article specifically doesn't say that he failed at quitting. It says that he has begun an effort to quit. This is factually accurate and properly sourced.LedRush (talk) 03:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Obama has tried to quit smoking several times, including a well-publicized effort which he began before launching his presidential campaign.[183] Obama has said he will not smoke in the White House.[184]" It is vague and you can assume for yourself if he is currently smoking or not. Something needs to be said here as to what is current status is...smoking, not smoking or trying to quit. If somebody 'tries to quit several times' there are periods when they are off the wagon completely and smoke daily. If they are in the middle of trying to quit they may have one cigarette every few months. Obama stated in June that he had not smoked in several months...this to me is a non smoker. At the very least something needs to be said about his current smoking habits (that he has not smoked in many months, possibly close to a year) DegenFarang (talk) 04:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we want to keep a day-by-day play-by-play on his smoking. The current language is accurate and doesn't unnecessarily congratulate or chastise him.LedRush (talk) 04:11, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And in order to say that, we need to find a reliable source that states it. How do you come by the belief that "he has not smoked in many months"? All we need is a source that supports your belief that he hasn't smoked since June 2008, and that information can be added. In fact, any documentation of when he had his latest cigarette would be useful, even if it was yesterday. Certainly various television news reports stated that he was smoking occasionally at least up until the time he moved to Washington (this month), and commented that he'd be staying in a non-smoking room, which might be difficult for him. - Nunh-huh 04:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the June 08 stuff but I just read that he told Mens Health that he occasionally smoked on the campaign trail. It is clear here that he is still currently trying to quit. Something needs to be added to the article saying 'and he is still currently trying to quit but did have a few cigarettes on the campaign trail'. SOMEthing needs to be added. There is not enough text there and way too much is left to the imagination DegenFarang (talk) 04:17, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(EC)http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/nation/6203834.html A source (from a couple of days ago) that says he recently smoked. I assume this comes from the Brokaw interviewer where after he says he's quit, he admits that he hasn't stopped. From the interview:
"But what I said was that there were times where I have fallen off the wagon." Brokaw, with that ah-haaaa look: "Wait a minute. That means you haven't stopped." A smiling Obama: "Fair enough. What I would say is that I have done a terrific job under the circumstances of making myself much healthier, and I think that you will not see any violations of these rules in the White House."
LedRush (talk) 04:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then the current status is that he is trying to quit but is having occasional relapses. This needs to be stated. He has not given up qutting as the current wording implies. Something needs to be added to clarify the situation. This is current events so it will change with time and that is ok DegenFarang (talk) 04:25, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the article states that he is trying to quit...going so far as saying it was well-publicized and started when he kicked off his campaign. I don't really think we need to (or should) add anything.LedRush (talk) 04:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok thanks for your opinion, however you are wrong. It needs to be changed. DegenFarang (talk) 04:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Did you look at the archives? I just ask that you settle down a little bit and let some others weigh in. I am sure the language can be tweaked to still be accurate, not make the mistakes we tried to avoid before, and still address your issue. But you've jumped the gun on this quite aggressively, ignoring pleas to read the archives...and you didn't even read the sources or try to find out what has happened. I say this not as an accusation, but just an attempt to get you to cool off and not push so hard.LedRush (talk) 04:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't need to read the archives. The language now is misleading. It says he has tried to quit in the past. Then it says he will not smoke in the White House. Don't you see what that implies? It implies that he was unsuccessful the last time he quit, or that he may still fail. It is a huge question mark that needs to be addressed. "including a well-publicized effort, that continues today, which he began before launching" How about we just change it to that. DegenFarang (talk) 04:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(EC) how about: "including a well-publicized and ongoing effort" ?LedRush (talk) 04:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
perfect! DegenFarang (talk) 04:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification

The article mentions his relationship with Tony Blair, saying he is the current British Prime Minister. Someone please fix this to reflect that Tony Blair is now the FORMER Prime Minister. 75.69.152.83 (talk) 04:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It actually says he was the then current Britsh PM. Mfield (talk) 04:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, "then current". Not currently current. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So it should really read that TB was the then British PM and lose the word current entirely. Mfield (talk) 04:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It could, but saying "former prime minister" is definitely wrong, because he wasn't "former prime minister" in 2005. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:21, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Seeing as English has an actual word for it - "incumbent", let's use that as "then incumbent" is less open to misinterpretation than "then current"? Mfield (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes current does not seem to be a word that works well in the past tense. Current means now. It is a bit funky and could use a better wordDegenFarang (talk)
"then incumbent P.M." is OK, but "then P.M." would also work. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 06:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Criticisms

Biographies of prominent individuals should have a section addressing some of the criticisms or controversies related to that individual, as long as the content can meet the wiki standards. Otherwise the article is not neutral, and fails to provide the depth of information possible, thus harming the value of the community for the benefit of a few. Articles such as this one which are possibly edited by official staff of the individual (whether paid or volunteer) should receive the highest scrutiny for this characteristic. Zoticogrillo (talk) 07:07, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No there shouldn't be a "criticism" section, criticism,theories should just be added to the article at places they fit,so any criticism like for example people saying he does not have enough experience should be added to the part where the article talks about his run from presidency, and criticism and praise (I think thats the opposite of criticism) should only be added on this page if it's actually notable in the bigger picture of his life store, as this is what this page is about, there are other pages where certain "details" can/should be added but that is on those pages and not on this one. 86.89.102.98 (talk) 09:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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