Talk:Byzantine Empire

Eastern Roman Empire

The line between calling emperors "Eastern Roman" or "Byzantine" seems to be very gray. It simply does not make sense to call emperor Leo I "Byzantine" while the western Roman empire was still in existence.

We should start referring to emperors as "Byzantine" starting with the Heraclius article.

If nobody agrees, then where should we start? Nobody would ever think of calling Constantine I a "Byzantine" emperor. Nor Arcadius, nor Theodosius II. So why does it say Theodosius II was a "Byzantine" emperor? I understand the purpose of calling the Medieval Greek speaking state "Byzantium", but this is not the case with Theodosius II or Leo I.--Tataryn77 (talk) 16:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, the issue has been debated in the past here, and the consensus is to follow what conventional historiography says: i.e. that a) the Empire is to be named "Byzantine", not "East Roman", and b) that the time limits are 330 or 395 to 1453. The area of transition between the late antique "Late Roman"/"Early Byzantine" and the medieval "middle Byzantine" periods is certainly put at about the reign of Heraclius, but if Justinian I is considered a "Byzantine" emperor, then so should Theodosius II... They presided over essentially the same state. As for Constantine I, he is almost everywhere considered to be the first "Byzantine" emperor, even though of course he ruled over the entire Empire, not just the East. Anyway, the Byzantine Empire is identical to the East Roman Empire, period. Confusion arises only from the conventional limitation of "East Roman" to refer to the late antique state in English sources. In German for instance, "Ostrom" ("East Rome") can easily be used beyond that period and even unto the end of the Empire... At any rate, at the latest after 395 it is legitimate to call the empire and its inhabitants "Byzantine". My usual practice is to use both terms, i.e. "Eastern Roman (Byzantine)" for people and events from 395 up to ca. 640 in the first instance, and then continue with one of the two terms in the article... Constantine ✍ 17:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Then we should use both until Heraclius.--Tataryn77 (talk) 19:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

A question to User Cplakidas: Agreed, I didn't know about that, but in that case why didn't you mention this consensus in other relevant articles you co-edit when at 1453 the empire was mentioned there as Roman empire and recently the very last emperor as a Roman emperor? --91.138.184.86 (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Huh? I did not really catch that... If you mean that in the article on Constantine XI there is mention of him being the last Roman emperor, then I don't really see any problem: the Byzantine Empire was the eastern half of the Roman Empire (both "Byzantine" and "East Roman" are modern conventions) as it survived and evolved through the Middle Ages. The fact that Constantine XI, like all his predecessors, styled himself "Emperor of the Romans", and that he stood in direct succession to Augustus Caesar is not disputed by anyone. Constantine ✍ 20:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The line is more varied than Cplakidas is making out. Mark Whittow for instance takes the 9th century as the era to switch terminology, but it's like asking "how long is a piece of string". "Byzantine" is just a modern construct, and any historian can start using it when he pleases. What is important however is to make the reader realise that these terms are relatively arbitrary rather than trying to decide for them that Justinian or Heraclius or Irene or Basil is the objective time time inscribed up in heaven by the all powerful autocrat of history. I do think though that the term "East Roman Empire" is particularly sinister, as it makes people think the Empire had been divided into two states [in fact in the Diocletian to 500 period it was mostly one state with 2 to 4 rulers, the capital and senior emperor being in the east]. Use "Roman" not "East Roman" ... at worst use "eastern Roman" if you have to distinguish the Romans of the empire with the Romans under barbarian rule in the west. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Of course the line is more varied. Treadgold takes it as far back as 284, for instance, to encompass the entire Dominate. However the overwhelming majority accept either 330 or 395, at least as conventional dates. Obviously, as in all such cases, people who were Roman one day did not suddenly wake up the next transformed into Byzantines... But if we do not get mired down in endless debates as to when exactly the transition point must be placed, we ought to accept the most common set of dates. Constantine ✍ 21:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree from obviously onwards. The question here is about when to use the term Byzantine, rather than when not to use the term Roman [I don't think any historian would object to this term for "Byzantines", even if they wouldn't use it by preference]. Like I said, the best thing to do is to indicate that the distinction any time after 330 is quite arbitrary and use "Roman" and "Byzantine" interchangeably without worrying too much. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 21:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The question raised concerns when the term "Byzantine" should be used exclusively in the articles of Roman emperors. Obviously Manuel Comnenus should be referred to as "Byzantine Emperor" exclusively. As well as Basil II and Leo III. Should [[Heraclius and Maurice and Justinian I be exclusively "Byzantine"? Arguable. I have never heard of Arcadius being referred to as a Byzantine emperor. I don't think many scholars use "Byzantine" until after the fall of the west. So that brings used to Zeno. His reign presided over the fall of Rome so should he be the first emperor referred to as "Byzantine"? Perhaps not. The idea of "Byzantine" denotes (further) hellenized Roman culture after the abandonment of Latin as a first language. Should it be Heraclius who is referred to as "Byzantine" exclusively first? Or the last Heraclian dynast Justinian II? We're stuck in a mire.--Tataryn77 (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Byzantine and Roman are not mutually exclusive, just that you shouldn't use Byzantine before 330. Like I said, it's fairly arbitrary and so don't worry about it, just make the terminology transparent. It's not for Wikipedians, who cannot prove expertise, to decide these matters and deny readers freedom of thought. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I can make this more clear. For example if I re-write Zeno's article do I say Zeno was Eastern Roman Emperor, Byzantine Emperor, or Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Emperor? The latter seems to be a good compromise. I just need to know which emperor to begin adding the (Byzantine) to "Roman Emperor". --Tataryn77 (talk) 01:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree with Deacon, in fact that was exactly my point in the article I mentioned. The time of the hellenization of the Eastern Roman empire varying from scholar to scholar. The "Byzantine" started to be used to denote, as Tataryn pointed, exactly that fact, or better say procedure. As for the date, I think Whittow's date is considered to be somewhat extreme. But in any case nobody disputes that by 1453 the empire, or what was left, had been completely hellenized (despite for obvious reasons still styling himself "Emperor of the Romans" in his last speech Constantine XI called Constantinople "hope and joy of every Greek"[1]). The problem was that two editors there, didn't accept any mentioning of "Byzantine" even during Palaiologos reign, and since user Cplakidas was present there making edits I thought to kindly ask him about, given the answer he initially gave to Tataryn. To the point of the discussion now, I think that the date issue is complicate but persisting in many articles, so the best solution, maybe, is to link the articles dealing with events after the dates Cplakidas gave as a consensus (or in case of a rethinking, any other date), with the Byzantine empire or Byzantine emperors articles, where the issue is (or must be) adequately analysed. In case of any disagreement there, we can redirect the issue here so that every editor can take note of the past discussions over the matter so to avoid unnecessary repetitions. In general and for the record I see it as another extreme to consider Constantine I as the first "Byzantine" emperor exactly because he ruled over the entire Empire, but Cplakidas must know better.--91.138.184.86 (talk) 07:29, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The point is, as the first Christian emperor and the founder of Constantinople (remember, "Byzantine Empire" essentially means the empire ruled from Byzantium, aka Constantinople, which was essential to the state's identity), he is seen as the first "Byzantine" emperor (to quote Michael Grant's biography of Constantine, "So Constantine [...] clearly lived in an epoch of sensational change, which he himself helped decisively to promote. Was he then, it is often asked, the last Roman or the first Byzantine emperor?"). Evidently, since "Byzantine" has come to refer to the eastern half alone (which survived), 395 would be a good idea. As for the form used, as long as it is clear what is meant, there really is not much of a problem. However, if "East Roman" is used, in the first mention at least there should be IMO some clarification that this equals "Byzantine", as it is not immediately obvious to all... Constantine ✍ 08:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not obvious for english speakers because of their dumb education system.(they have excellent colleges, but generally dump secondary education, exept for a few elite schools. and their colleges in fact give narrow specialization).212.156.171.169 (talk) 09:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

If this was the reason they would not have chosen the ancient and almost forgotten (Greek) name of the city instead of the actual name which was also the name of the empire's creator to distinguish it from the older Roman empire. They didn't do it without a good reason. But this discussion is irrelevant to what we discuss now.--91.138.184.86 (talk) 12:39, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Probably a bit late, but I would say that it makes more sense to use "East Roman Emperor" through to Phocas, and then start mostly using "Byzantine Emperor" with Heraclius, who changed the official language to Greek and lost Syria and Egypt. It is distinctly odd to call Valens or Theodosius II a "Byzantine Emperor." john k (talk) 14:32, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

I also agree, at least the infoboxes referring to the emperors before Heraclius should use "Eastern Roman Emperor". Although, the terms "Eastern Roman" and "Byzantine" (which is also a pejorative term) are usually synonyms, there seems to be a preference in historiography for using "Byzantine" when referring to the later periods (after Heraclius, or in other cases from the 8th century with Leo the Isaurian).Cody7777777 (talk) 13:37, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Here is the truth: there was no "Byzantine Empire;" just a legitimate Roman Empire (unbroken linage). Anything else is cultural bias. The other "Roman" empires were just wannabes. --99.28.187.75 (talk) 22:54, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I think we should dispense with all WP:RS and just replace with footnotes saying "here is the truth". Why did this guy bother to type his post? DeCausa (talk) 23:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Just to add my 10c, Byzantine Emperors never called themselves Byzantine Emperors or East Roman Emperors, they were simply Emperor of the Romans. Their contemporaries called them either Emperor of the Romans or Emperor of the Greeks. My personal belief is that for historiographical reasons the East Roman Empire shouldn't be called Byzantine until the Western half of the Empire fell

Greek/Latin naming in the introduction of emperor articles

I would just like to mention that the Greek and Latin naming of emperors should not be in the first sentence of the introduction. This could be confusing to casual readers. I have been moving Greek and Latin naming to references, though notes or even the infobox are welcome compromises. This is the English Wikipedia. The Greek name of an emperor is not the most important information about an individual, so should not cluster the uppermost sections of an article. Thank you.--Tataryn77 (talk) 15:53, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I oppose moving those names in a footnote. The fact that it is not the most important information is irrelevant. --TakenakaN (talk) 16:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

It is not irrelevant. This is the English wikipedia. The Greek naming is not crucial and if not in a reference should be in the infobox. I will continue to revert for the sake of preserving the integrity of the articles.--Tataryn77 (talk) 16:20, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know it is the English Wikipedia, but we are talking about the name of a person, how could his real name be irrelevant? The articles' integrity is fine as it was. --TakenakaN (talk) 16:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with TakenakaN. Including the Greek names conforms both to policy (WP:MOSBEGIN) and established practice, since Greek was de facto the dominant language in the East. Constantine ✍ 16:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I also agree with TakenakaN. Please stop the changes. There is no consensus for the changes you are making and they are also against naming conventions. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 16:40, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry for the trouble. The reason for my edits was because of lack of uniformity with other Roman emperor articles. If the issue has been solved then I will cease editing and reverting. Let's not fill half the introductions with Latin and Greek names though. Once again, sorry for the inconveinience. --Tataryn77 (talk) 17:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

There was no "Eastern Roman Empire"

I have some serious problem with this article. First, there were no "Eastern Roman Empire," which is a name that was created by Charlemagne after he was crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 800 AD. A better term for this page would be "The (Late/Medieval) Roman Empire: Byzantium Epoch/Era." Second, the idea that Constantine the Great broke up the Roman Empire into two, independent empires is ridiculous. The line from Constantine to the Fall of Constantinople is practically uninterrupted ( see the Fourth Crusade) The starting date should not be in the fourth century, but at either the founding of Rome in 753B.C., or the founding of the Empire in 23B.C.. Third, the Emperor in the East was superior to the one in Rome, who was more or less a junior partner. Fourth, centuries after the collapse in the West, the people in the former territories still looked to the Emperor in Constantinople as their leader. Clovis I actually had to request the Emperor in Constantinople for the right of ruling over the people he conquered because they did not believe he had the right to do so without the Emperor's consent and were rebellious (the Emperor gave his consent). All of this can be found in the The History of the Byzantine Empire: Vol. 1&2, by Alexander Vasiliev. I have the book, but it's at home and I am at school so I can't refer to it directly. I am also surprised that no one has made that a source because it is probably the definite book in the 20th Century about the Byzantine Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.190.89.159 (talk) 20:34, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm confused. At his death in 395, Heraclius separated the unified RE into two states, which his sons ruled; unlike earlier administrative divisions, an emperor of one was no longer an emperor of the other. What designation would you give to the eastern state, if not ERE? (Note that I am not asking about its founding date, only the legitimacy of this name.) Jmacwiki (talk) 05:29, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Not Heraclius (c. 575-641, reigned 610-641). You are confusing him with Theodosius I (347-395, reigned 379-395). The better question would be how to describe Diocletian, Galerius, Maximinus II (Daia), Licinius and Sextus Martinianus without making a division between Western and Eastern Roman Empire. Dimadick (talk) 06:46, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Bede dates by Roman emperors [who are Byzantine], German chronicles list emperors until to Irene as predecessors of Charlemagne, and so on ... I'd correct you and point out that early medieval western Europeans did not think of the HRE as a resurrection of the Western Empire (that too is a later invention), but the transfer of Roman imperium to the Franks from the Romans of Constantinople.

You are right otherwise of course; but being right is not enough to change anything. Western writing since the 18th century is rooted in the idea that the Western Empire before 500 is the real Roman Empire, and that's what has determined usage (including the popularity of the neologism "Byzantine"), falling nicely into synchrony with the history of the West's big countries, France, England and Germany. It shouldn't work like this, but what are you gonna do? Nothing can be done here anyway, so don't waste your effort.  :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 20:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe Wikipedia can correct several centuries of false ideas? We can change the western world! :D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.190.89.159 (talk) 22:17, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I did not sign in earlier, but I'm the one who started this topic, and was on a public computer and forgot to log on. Anyways, since I have a little more time know, I just want to add that I understand about the transfer, and I am sorry if I misspoke. But I really think that the users should really push for actual facts and knowledge, not false ideas and beliefs about history. We know that the Byzantine Empire was the late Roman Empire, and Wikipedia should be at the forefront of trying to correct perceptions that can be proven factually to be incorrect ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drlcartman (talk • contribs) 23:26, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Article titles. Wikipedia should never ever "be at the forefront of trying to correct perceptions that can be proven factually to be incorrect ones". The titles of the article shouldn't be used to "change the western world". This is supposed to be a encyclopaedia written for the benefit of the common people. The contents of this article must reflect the subject as it is taught in school and read in books written by credible historians. The articles of the English wiki have to use the common names currently used by the English language. If you truly want to convince anyone of "the truth" then by all means, talk to the English-writing historians who write the books. Perhaps you can persuade them in writing books using the subject's "proper and correct name". If they change their ways we can change the title of this article, but not before. Talk to a history teacher (if you live in the UK, USA, Australia, New Zealand, and any other English-speaking country) and ask him why he is using the name 'Byzantine Empire' instead of '(Late/Medieval) Roman Empire: Byzantium Epoch/Era'. This talkpage isn't a (figurative) court of law, where you can present your opinion and win your case with glorious speeches. This isn't a factual/political/cultural/historical battleground. Spare your breath and stop preaching your gospel. Flamarande (talk) 02:03, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Error?

The article states:

"By contrast, in the Persian, Islamic, and Slavic worlds, the Empire's Roman identity was generally accepted. In the Islamic world it was known primarily as روم (Rûm "Rome")."

But, according to Cyril Mango (La civiltà bizantina/Byzantium: the Empire of New Rome):

"[gli europei d'occidente] pertanto identificavano i bizantini come graeci. Affine il termine impiegato dagli Slavi (Greki), laddove per Arabi e Turchi essi erano Rum, vale a dire Romani" (this is my (imperfect) translation: "[The Western Europeans] identified the byzantines as graeci [Greeks]. The same did the Slavs (Greki), while the Arabs and the Turks called them Rum (Romans)").

According to Cyril Mango, the Slavs called them "Greeks"! I don't dare to correct the article because this is a featured article and it should be written in a proper english. I'm not a native speaker, so it's better that native speakers correct it!--Casmiki (talk) 18:48, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

The Slavs did indeed call the Byzantines "Greeks", but, due to their far closer interaction with and influence by Constantinople, they still recognized them as "Romans", in contrast to the West, which disputed their right to the name. As late as the 14th century, Stefan Dushan crowned himself "Tsar of the Serbs and the Romans", the latter implying the Greeks. Constantine ✍ 18:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

User:Alvez3 Edits

This user has made this edit and this edit to the Nomenclature section. I've objected and the user has tried to put it back in.

Alvez3, the existing text has been in the article for a long time. That means it has consensus approval. If you want to change something, you therefore need consensus to change it. There's nothing wrong with making a bold change without first getting consensus, but the correct procedure in accordance with WP:BRD is that if someone then reverts you it means you haven't got consensus and you need to then follow the D of WP:BRD and discuss it on the Talk page to get consensus for your change. That's what I meant in my edit summary that you haven't got consensus (and not that "my opinion" is consensus as you said in your edit summary).Because this is a featured article it is even more important to follow the process correctly so as not to reduce the acknowledged quality of the article. So please do not revert again until consensus is reached here. To revert again before that happens is edit-warring.

Turning to my objections to your edit: (1) It is quite clear from the rest of the article whether the "claims" were justified. To have as your reason for the edit that the claims were indisputable is taking an unnecessarily POV-pushing stance. (2) The claim referred to was "Roman inheritance". You've changed it to "role"/"stance" "as successor to" the Roman Empire, that's two different issues. The point being made originally (Roman inheritance) is much broader than the narrow one (successor state) you are trying to make. The broader point is more appropriate (3) Is being the successor, the "empire's role"? It's a strange turn of phrase. Certainlt the Byzantines would have argued that their role was much bigger than that. I don't think role is the right word at all. Your original word (stance) sounded even worse. You've changed something which flows well in English to quite a clumsy inelegant phrase. (4) The Byzantines themselves never claimed that they were a "successor" to the Roman Empire. They believed they were the Roman empire. (5) Your change is unsourced (6) As can be seen from this talk page archives the relationship between the Byzantine Empire and the Roman Empire one is subject to much debate and is complex. Your change is pushing your POV on that issue in a rather unsubtle way and is inappropriate.

Most importantly, to change a well-written long-standing part of featured article requires a very good reason. Plesase reach agreement here before reverting again. DeCausa (talk) 08:13, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

I have no particular view on what the eventual outcome of this dispute should be, but it seems to me reasonable that, since this article has been reviewed and designated as a featured article, no changes of this sort should be made until a consensus has been reached for them. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:39, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that what was contested from Charlemagne onward was the claim that Constantinopolitan emperorship represented Roman imperial authority (or represent it on its own), not so much that the empire was a successor state to Rome or had a "Roman inheritance" in general. Iblardi (talk) 17:52, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Iblardi. I think that was what the original text was trying to get at with "The claims of the Eastern Roman Empire to Roman inheritance". The change introduced by Alvez3 (and now Dinkytown) narrows it to the succesor state point which is not what the text was trying to get at, I think. But I agree that the original doesn't really get it either. It should probably be something like "The claims of universal Roman imperial authority..." or something like that. DeCausa (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

I think by ‘agreeing’ with Iblardi like that you are trying to put words in his mouth that he never said. It is clear what he is saying is Charlemagne contested the authority of the current monarch, nothing more. The stumbling point here is the word's ‘claims’ applicability to the whole Empire. ‘Claims’ sounds highly controversial here since it detaches the Eastern Roman Empire from the Roman inheritance out of hand. Why does the empire have to claim descendancy when its descendancy is not really in dispute? Given that, your suggestion ("The claims of universal Roman imperial authority...") which you offer as a compromise is in essence a switcheroo of secondary subjects that keeps the original source of controversy intact. I'm not sure the current ‘role’ is the best alternative to the previous edit but it certainly seems more appropriate and less inflammatory than ‘claims’.--170.170.59.139 (talk) 01:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

The disputed wording is based on very little sourcing. The question of whether Charlemagne was considered by various authorities as the new Roman Emperor would surely be addressed in biographies of Charlemagne. The only reference offered in this article is in Greek and is not available online. It is the 'Greek Encyclopedia Helios', which seems unlikely to be the best source available, since it is tertiary. Presumably Western sources would record what Pope Leo had in mind when he decided to crown Charlemagne as the Emperor. There should also be histories that say what Constantinople thought of Charlemagne's status. Our article on Charlemagne may give ideas for where to find sources. EdJohnston (talk) 02:43, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the current wording is incorrect. I don't believe that there is any evidence that the West, at the time of Charlemagne, didn't accept that the Byzantine Empire was Rome's successor. I think what wasn't accepted is the authority of the Byzantine Emperor in the West . In any event, the sentence is totally unwieldy. I suggest changing it to:

"The authority of the Byzantine Emperor in the West, as Rome's successor, was challenged by the corronation of Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor by Pope Leo III in the year 800. Needing Charlemagne's support in his struggle against his enemies in Rome, Leo used the lack of a male occupant of the throne of the Roman Empire at the time to claim that it was vacant and that he could therefore crown a new Emperor himself."

In the context of the section, I'm not sure the second sentence is even needed. Let's keep it simple. DeCausa (talk) 11:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

It's a good suggestion. I would go a little further and offer this version of the entire paragraph that circumvents any mentioning of the 'claims':

"Although the empire had a multi-ethnic character during its history and preserved Romano-Hellenistic traditions, it became known to most of its western and northern contemporaries as the Empire of the Greeks due to the increasing predominance of the Greek element. The use of the term Empire of the Greeks (Latin: Imperium Graecorum) to refer to the Eastern Roman Empire also implied that in the West it was no longer seen as the Roman Empire. The authority of the Byzantine Emperor as successor of Roman Emperors, was challenged by the coronation of Charlemagne as Holy Roman Emperor by Pope Leo III in the year 800. Needing Charlemagne's support in his struggle against his enemies in Rome, Leo used the lack of a male occupant of the throne of the Eastern Roman Empire at the time to claim that it was vacant and that he could therefore crown a new Emperor himself. Whenever the Popes or the rulers of the West made use of the name Roman to refer to the eastern Roman Emperors, they preferred the term Imperator Romaniæ instead of Imperator Romanorum, a title that Westerners maintained applied only to Charlemagne and his successors."

I'd leave the last sentence though since it demonstrates that there was still a certain ambiguity about how Popes and other western rules saw the Byzantine Empire.--Alvez3 (talk) 04:09, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Gives a decent inclination into how the politics may have been involved regarding Leo, Charlemange and the throne in the East. Pudge MclameO (talk) 16:01, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

In general, I'm happy with the proposed text as a replacement for the existing text. (As an aside, I find the extirpation of the word "claims" a little over the top - and btw, a claim can be valid or invalid, there's nothing to be implied by its use - but I don't think it's terribly important one way or the other.) However, I think there is an important point raised by EdJohnston on the sources. In the absence of decent sources, I have doubts that Charlemagne's coronation was such a turning point in western attitudes, which probably had more to do with the Ottonians' 2nd revival of the "Roman" imperial title rather than the events of 800. On Charlemagne's coronation, John Julius Norwich in "Byzantium the Apogee" puts it like this: "Thus - despite the fateful ceremony just completed - the Roman Empire remained, so far as either of them [i.e. Charlemagne and Leo] was concerned, one and indivisible, with Charles as its Emperor. All that had happened was that the Pope had arrogated to himself the right to appoint and invest the Emperor of the Romans - a right which for nearly five centuries had been exercised by Byzantium". There's nothing in the coronation which challenged Byzantium "as the Roman Empire". I think the change Alvez3 has made to say that the coronation challenged the "Byzantine Emperor" as the successor to Rome (rather than challenging the "Byzantine Empire") is therefore correct. But I suspect the whole reference (given the purpose of this section) should really be to the Ottonians rather than Charlemagne. DeCausa (talk) 22:27, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

The new proposed text is largely fine, however, I think there is still a small problem with saying "The authority of the Byzantine Emperor as successor of Roman Emperors", since it can give the impression that the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Emperors were distinct from the Roman Emperors (and they obviously considered themselves as "Roman Emperors"). In my opinion that phrase should be modified as "The authority of the Byzantine Emperor as the legitimate Roman Emperor". And I don't think Charlemagne was crowned with the exact title "Holy Roman Emperor" (this expression appeared later, although he is indeed usually considered as the founder of that line of emperors), it appears he was proclaimed as "Imperator Augustus" (and other sources also mention the title "Emperor of the Romans"), and the Franks considered him a successor of Constantine VI. And while it is true that the relations between the Ottonians and the Byzantine Roman Emperors were even more difficult, I think it can still be considered that the seeds of this conflict remain with Charlemagne's coronation ("Charlemagne's acceptance of the title of Imperator Augustus at his crowning by Pope Leo III on Christmas Day, December 25, 800, was a direct challenge to Byzantine supremacy"), and it is very probable that there would have been no Ottonian Emperors without Charlemagne. Cody7777777 (talk) 01:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the facts in the last part of your post - however, the section is about nomenclature not the more general issue of challenging Byzantine power. Although it's true there would be "no Ottonians without Charlemagne", I think it is only with the Ottonians that the name dispute arises, since, as the John Julius Norwich quote suggests, all Leo was doing, in his eyes, was putting in place a "new Roman emperor", and then a hiatus on the issue follows until the Ottonian "renovatio". However, the source problem remains - I don't think the sources (either mine, yours, or in the article) support either proposition. So let's leave it as Charlemagne for the moment - until someone comes up with better sources. As far as adding in "legitimate" is concerned I'm neutral and don't mind either way. I would say, however, that I do find this obsession amongst some Wikipedia editors with defending the "legitimacy" of the Byzantine Empire as "the Roman Empire" (an obsession not noticeable in academia) somewhat bizarre, anachronistic (is it really appropriate to take sides in an 9th/10th century argument!?) and unscholarly. DeCausa (talk) 07:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

I could be mistaken, but as far as I knew, the Franks called the Byzantine Romans as "Greeks" at least since the 8th century, probably even before Charlemagne's ascension, but in diplomatic relations this indeed started to happen more often from the 10th century. However, there are some authors, like the historian and theologian John Romanides, who have explicitly attributed to Charlemagne this usage of the term "Greeks", "By claiming that he ruled the Roman Empire, Charlemagne thus clearly meant that he governed the whole Roman Empire. The Franks decided that the Eastern part of the Empire had become Greek, and its leader, an emperor of Greeks....He (Charlemagne) needed the condemnation of the East Romans as heretics in order to prove that they were no longer Romans, but Greeks..." (I do not know if this statement is accurate or not, but the proposed text does not really attempt to explain who started to call them "Greeks"). Regarding legitimacy, the Franks have, at least officially, recognized all eastern emperors until Constantine VI as legitimate Roman Emperors ("...the Latin speaking world had continued to recognize the Emperors at Constantinople as the legitimate Roman Emperors until Irene deposed her son in 797.", in western "annals of the time and of many succeeding centuries, the name of Constantine VI, the sixty-seventh in order from Augustus, is followed without a break by that of Charles, the sixty-eighth"), and they challenged the legitimacy of Irene using the pretext that women could not be emperors. In my opinion, the proposed phrase "The authority of the Byzantine Emperor as the legitimate Roman Emperor, was challenged by the coronation of Charlemagne..." could describe this issue somewhat better, and without implying that the Franks were right or wrong in challenging the eastern emperor's legitimacy. Cody7777777 (talk) 21:37, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

As I said, I don't have a problem with the proposed text, but it is still not properly sourced. Hopefully, that will be rectified at some point, but no objection to it going in for the moment. DeCausa (talk) 22:11, 20 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Unless someone will oppose, in the following days I intend to add the new proposed text in the article. Cody7777777 (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I concur. --Alvez3 (talk) 04:48, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Cody, the text you added has Charlemagne crowned as "Imperator Augustus" whereas the Charlemagne article says "Imperator Romanorum". Comment? DeCausa (talk) 18:02, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

The article about Charlemagne indeed mentions "Imperator Romanorum", but the same article also claims "During his reign, he conquered Italy and was crowned Imperator Augustus by Pope Leo III on 25 December 800." (and I had the impression Charlemagne preferred to use "Imperator Augustus" in his documents). But nonetheless, both versions are supported by sources, and I have no problem if you wish to change it to "Imperator Romanorum". Cody7777777 (talk) 18:19, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

No, no preference, although if there's conflicting sources maybe both should go in. Imperator Romanorum obviously goes more to the heart of the nomenclature issue of course. DeCausa (talk) 21:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Move proposal for History of the Eastern Roman Empire

A request to move History of the Eastern Roman Empire to History of the Byzantine Empire has been initiated. Anyone interested is invited to bring his/her opinion. Constantine ✍ 12:47, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree, these articles should be identical 212.175.32.136 (talk) 14:22, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Last unified empire?

Article says that Heraclius (d.395) is the last emperor of a unified RE. Justinian's reconquest of the West was not complete, but isn't he, or his successor Justin II, a more appropriate nominee for that label, nearly 2 centuries later? The point is that "the empire" is not a rigidly fixed territory: Heraclius did not control all the territory that (say) Marcus Aurelius had, 2 centuries earlier; even Constantine did not. But Justinian and his immediate successors were the last to control the territories of both the Eastern Empire and much of the Western. Jmacwiki (talk) 05:56, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

I think you mean Theodosius. Firstly, this is about summarising sources, not the "truth". The source cited (Britannica) says presumably Theodosius was the last one. If you want to put in Justinian instead you'll need to find a source who describes him that way (I doubt you'll find one since he's not usually so described). Without a source, to describe him as the last Emperor of a unified RE (by virtue of the reconquest) would be synthesis. Secondly, I think, if one were being pedantic, with the end of the Western Emperors, the Eastern Emperors were once again sole Emperors of a "unified empire" anyway. DeCausa (talk) 17:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmm: very good points! And yes, I certainly meant Theodosius. :-[

This does suggest that labeling anyone (even Heraclius ;-) as "last emperor of a unified RE" is problematic, whether or not Britannica did. Jmacwiki (talk) 04:54, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Maps and Heraclius

On maps, it makes sense to put Venice and Genoa. Ravenna with the end of Exarchate became ininfluent for Byzantine Empire.

On Map of extention of Byzantine Empire: For a few period before the Arabs, Heraclius reoccupied Egypt and Mesopotamia, destroying Ctesiphon making the Sassanid Empire a tributary vassal. For few years Heraclius was like Alexander. The Arabs occupied quicly the Middle East, Egypt and Persia because they found an area in post-war crisis and Persian and Byzantine armies exhausted. See Ostrogorsky.

--Andriolo (talk) 16:26, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it would not make sense to depict Venice and Genoa in maps concerning Heraclius. Neither city became influential for several centuries - neither were independent during Heraclius' lifetime. Ravenna was the capital of the exarchate - much more influentual. Also, Heraclius did not destroy or even sack Ctesiphon. You may be confusing Ctesiphon with Ganzak, a palatial city Heraclius sacked during his eastern campaign. Heraclius was no Alexander. He was no Trajan either. He did not get the opportunity to gaze on the ruins of Babylon and got nowhere near the Persian Gulf. He did however defeat the Sassanids against incredible odds and restore the borders to the status quo ante bellum. I suggest re-reading Ostrogorsky. --Tataryn77 (talk) 19:39, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

History of Anatolia?

Why was the box "history of Anatolia" chosen the feature on the right in this article? The Byzantine Empire extended to much of Europe and even North Africa during the course of its history, and during the last century of its existence it had no possessions in Anatolia. It is widely understood to coincide with Medieval Greek civilization and all articles on Medieval Greek history redirect to it, so if one series should feature as most relevant, that would be Greek history. Dubbing Byzantine history as primarily a part of Anatolian history is obviously a choice of some Turkish users influenced by an ideology that tends to appropriate as "Turkish" any past civilization that flourished in Anatolia. One could imagine any number of other templates chosen e.g. history of the Balkans, history of Christianity, history of Eastern Orthodoxy etc. Even history of Turkey might make more sense: Istanbul/Constantinople is located in modern Turkey, but it is not located in Anatolia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.175.32.136 (talk) 14:36, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Successor states

I suggest we add the three states that succeeded the Byzantine Empire upon the fall of Constantinople to the infobox: The Ottoman Empire, the Morea, and Trebizond.

The current situation is a result of a discussion about cutting back on the Byzantine Empire's successor states, which were excessively and vaguely listed. It ended in a decision to remove all the successor states from the infobox and simply leave a link to Legacy of Byzantium, probably because the discussion sparked many alternative proposals, such as adding Russia and removing the infobox entirely. The Empire lost a lot of territory over its history, and we can't list every state that took territory from it. However, I don't see why we don't simply list the three states that Byzantine territory became after the Empire's fall.

I don't feel strongly about removing or leaving the "Legacy" link, but it's certainly not necessary. Swarm ^X 05:31, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree, and am not very happy about the whole "Legacy of Byzantium" idea, at least as the article stands today (and I cannot really consent to limiting "legacy" to "political succession"). However, given that both the Morea and Trebizond were mopped up within a few years (and since Morea was already a dependent Ottoman vassal before 1453, and Trebizond effectively independent since 1204), why not keep it simple and have just the Ottomans? That is the conventional progression in historiography as well. Or we could link to the successor states category. Constantine ✍ 06:19, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Those are valid points. Just including the Ottoman Empire sounds fine as well. Swarm ^X 18:52, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Since we mention the Ottoman Empire, which was an Islamic state, then I think we should also mention other Orthodox Balkan states (like the Serbian Despotate and the Principality of Wallachia) which were culturally closer to the Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire. The Despotate of Morea and the Empire of Trebizond were direct remnants of the Empire, so they should also be mentioned in a list. But, if a list is used, normally all states (which are described as successors by sources) should be added, to avoid adopting a specific point of view (we should avoid claiming that the Ottoman Empire was the only true successor). But, in my opinion, in this case it is better to use a sub-article for the successors issue, and "Legacy of Byzantium" should probably be renamed to "Successors of the Byzantine Empire" (and it should also be expanded). Cody7777777 (talk) 19:13, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The problem with infoboxes is that people tend to try and cram as much information into them as possible, while by their nature infoboxes are designed to provide (over-)simplified overview of key points. I don't think we do anyone a service by listing all the successor states, loosely defined (Umayyads or the myriad Latin principalities anyone?). We can always add a note with the successor states category or a separate article, but I feel rather strongly that the Ottomans should be there, as they were the main political and territorial heir, as well as the state that ended the Byz. Empire's existence and assumed its imperial mantle. It is not a coincidence that the article ends in 1453 and not in any other date. All the other cases have arguments against them, e.g. the Serbian Despotate is actually the successor of various older Serbian states independent from Byzantium from the 12th century already, and as for Wallachia, although a "cultural" successor it was never actually a part of Byzantium. For the purpose the successor fields are designed, the Ottomans qualify best by far. Constantine ✍ 20:43, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

BTW, I don't agree with the spirit of Cody's comment about the "true" successor. The Ottomans, whether we like it or not, conquered Byzantium and occupied pretty much the same territorial and political niche that it had done. That is a fact, as is the fact that even the conquered Orthodox populations saw in the sultans the heirs of the emperors. It has nothing to do with any perceived "legitimacy" or them being Islamic. If we go by "identity" or "cultural heritage", why not include the modern Greek state as well? Or Albania, since it uses the double-headed eagle in its flag? There's a reason such subjective criteria are avoided in infoboxes, and direct state succession is the only criterion used. Constantine ✍ 20:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but listing only the Ottoman Empire seems clearly like subjective POV (even if it might be a correct POV, and I do not think we do a real service to our readers, by showing them only one successor). Also, a link only to the Ottoman Empire, would probably not remain stable for too much time. A long list can be avoided by either using a sub-article (like "Legacy of Byzantium", and this was stable for enough time), or perhaps by linking to the category (like you suggested). (Regarding Greece and Albania, information about them can be added in the sub-article about the successors or legacy. And regarding Wallachia, during the time of Constantine I, the Empire also expanded in that region, and possibly also during Justinian's time.) Cody7777777 (talk) 21:47, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm fully with Cplakidas on this one. He put the case very well. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, we can't get too flexible in terms of what is or isn't a successor state. The Ottoman Empire is a successor state. No question about that. I think the Morea and Trebizond should both be included because they're the only two Byzantine/Greek successor states that outlasted the Byzantine Empire- the two Byzantine remnants. But being culturally close does not make a state a successor state. There should be no confusion about including states like that. Swarm ^X 02:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

The role of the Ottoman Empire as a successor state is not questioned here, but even if it can be considered the most legitimate successor, it is not the only one. And regarding the Balkan states, they were not only closer culturally, these states also had territory which had been part of the Empire at some point, and their rulers also saw themselves as successors to the Byzantine Roman Emperors. But there are sources which mention even Russia as a successor, despite the fact that it did not gain any former territory of the Empire until around the 18th century (and in my opinion, it is not a true successor state, but normally we should not ignore sources because we think they're wrong). As far as I see, the best ways to avoid this issue, are either to link to a sub-article discussing about successors, or link to the successors category. Cody7777777 (talk) 09:07, 23 June 2011 (UTC)