User talk:Jimbo Wales

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RfA decision

Mr. Wales, I find strength in your words when you express, without equivocation, your impression of a functional quagmire that exists in policy malformation. Will you speak boldly to the "horrible and broken process" that is RfA. Would you institute an alternative process that could produce adminship? Give prospects some reason to believe they can be considered entirely on their merits. Perhaps a panel, grounded in best practice and institutional interest, who can deliver the permission, based on a formatted request, and subsequent review. As far as consensus, it is more prudent that the community scrutinize the administrative actions of an active admin, than to imply that they are best suited to evaluate a candidate. I have observed participants at RfA comment on matters related to the mental competence of a candidate, when it is unlikely they are remotely qualified to make such a declaration. And if they were, it is certainly not advice that Wikipedia endeavors to propagate. It is past time for leadership to usurp this situation, there are many users who beseech that you get involved, and I have a sense that you are of stringent comprise, so as to get it done. Please comment on this thread, and if you like, shock me into euphoria by making a declaration. Respectfully submitted with the highest regard! My76Strat (talk) 23:04, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

You should be a speechwriter. ;P -- œ^™ 23:48, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I favor the institution of a temporary time-limited trial, to be formally ratified after evidence is gathered, of a new parallel system of RfA to be given out to quiet good editors with great track records over a significant period of time, without having to go through the RfA gauntlet. The mere existence of that process deters quite a large number of good candidates, I believe, and I think we could easily select through some other process 5 or so excellent candidates per month. Such candidates could be given the admin bit conditionally, and with a strong requirement up front that they be willing to accept a sensible recall process. There's a certain amount of "institutional religion," I fear, around how we currently do it - and the process does work, in a way, but it misses a lot of good people too.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:57, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

But we're already averaging about 5 admins a month.. isn't the point of a new process to increase the amount of successful admins? -- œ^™ 00:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

As a parallel process it is implied that both will function. Jimbo, you could directly appoint one failed candidate a year, kind of like an executive pardon. Heck, I'll be your thanksgiving turkey. Even something as simple as that gives hope to some who do not see reason for hope. And I think the things you have stated above are exactly prudent. I hope the community wouldn't find reason to call foul! And if they do, I hope you find reason to say, we are going to start doing some of these things. My76Strat (talk) 00:23, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, I am less concerned about candidates who fail the current process and more concerned about good candidates who don't bother standing for the current process because it is a nightmare and not worth the effort.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

That is reasonable, I understand and agree. I wish to strike that portion of my comment which went off track. My76Strat (talk) 02:52, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

My fear of the process you have just laid out is that the requirements to become an admin would be the opinions of whoever is on the panel. In addition, I believe that if adminship was granted based on a panel rather than approval of peers, it would become more of a cabal (assuming the panel consisted of all admins). If a panel didn't consist entirely of admins, a conflict of interest is created because the panel could elect one of its own members as an admin. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:29, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

All of those objections seem easily dealt with. I think one strength of the proposal is that it allows for thoughtful and well-respected people (admins or not) to appoint thoughtful and well-respected people, without the absurd gauntlet of the current process. Elections are good for some things, and very very bad for other things.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

RfA is comprised of a self appointed panel who don't even have to affirm that their higher regard is Wikipedia. At least a comprised panel would be accountable for their conduct, and themselves subject to rotation, and confirmation. I think it is an idea worthy of trial implementation. My76Strat (talk) 00:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that's a valid point. Many people simply avoid the RfA process completely. I should add that I don't think RfA comes to the wrong answer all that often. (Like anyone, I might quibble with this or that, of course, but on the whole I think the process basically comes to the right answer. It's just a process that is inherently unpleasant for lots of reasons that are unnecessary and turn off plenty of good people.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Sign me up. I'd love to go through the process you described vs. RfA. I'd even be happy to agree to the recall process condition. As an editor, I usually tend to fade into the background and go relatively unnoticed despite a fair amount of work in admin areas, yet I highly dislike the thought of screwing half the RfA support votes I might get by self-nominating. While I'm not really in a rush to get adminship (honestly I can wait until the community thinks I'm ready, especially with the self-nomination thing I mentioned), it would be nice to have an alternate option that I could go through when the time comes versus the gauntlet of RfA that I will admit heavily deters me from actively seeking adminship into waiting until I'm noticed. Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 00:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know your work well enough to know whether I would support your candidacy, but this statement alone is enough for me to support that some sensible and reasonably small group of people ought to be able to look at your work and surprise you with adminship one morning, without all the rigamarole, if your record warrants it. :-)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Have you seen Wikipedia:Request an RfA nomination? Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Whoa...no, I hadn't...that's exceptionally helpful though. Thank you for pointing this out to me. =) Ks0stm If you reply here, please leave me a {{Talkback}} message on my talk page. 01:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll repeat my several-times-made proposal: that we have an AdminCom of about 10 members, elected in the same way as ArbCom, and given full power to op and de-op using whatever procedure they find appropriate. Looie496 (talk) 00:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll just state FTR that these ideal solutions aren't going to be solved by the community. We may be able to somewhat improve the existing RfA process, but we simply couldn't rely on the community to adopt a parallel system (like anything regarding RfA changes). This would have to be implemented by yourself, Jimbo, and I hope you realize that. Swarm ^{u | t} 01:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

As a counter to the usual hand wringing I would like to point out Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Fluffernutter. I'd suggest it supports the idea that RFA is not as broken as some say. Good candidates often sail through. The community knows what it wants and is more than willing to give good candidates the mop. As much as people don't want to admit it, with very very few exceptions failed RFA's are a good thing. They fail because the candidates will not be good admins.--Cube lurker (talk) 01:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

For the record, I agree with you on that point. The point is that the process is viewed by many as too difficult and focused too often on the wrong things. That great candidates get through is absolutely true. That really awful candidates don't make it is also absolutely true. That many great people refuse to candidate because the process is onerous is also true, though.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I think a lot of problems are the way members who fail treat the process. If everyone reacted like RobertMfromLI did here, I believe RFA would be considered a great process. Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

• Much thanks Ryan, but I must confess a lot of that is due to the editors who involved themselves in my RfA, and their contributions. I've followed a lot of RfAs, and yes, editors who are the subject of them should come into it with the right feelings... but on the other hand, the editors who respond and !vote on them also need to treat the process correctly. Sometimes, I see some turn into attacks and such. In my case, I got a ton of good feedback instead - not a single oppose was negative, not a single oppose was nasty. It's hard not to respond positively. That aside, perhaps some sort of suggested Admin Coaching beforehand may be handy to help judge expectations, abilities and readiness... suggested or otherwise, I know I plan on utilizing such before (if) my next RfA. Best, ROBERTMFROMLI | ^TK/_CN 20:14, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

One last thought before I go off to bed. Take a look at House of Lords Appointments Commission. This is an alternative process in the UK for people joining the upper house of the Parliament. The usual process is political (appointments by the Prime Minister according to various considerations) and this one is intended to be designed to find a different sort of candidate. The analogy is inexact, of course, but the point I want people to consider is that a diversity of thoughtful processes to bring on board different kinds of candidates is likely a healthy thing. RfA has flaws - almost no one denies that. But it also has strengths, which are similarly widely recognized. Rather than replace it, which is quite difficult for a number of very good reasons, I think we should supplement it with a thoughtful alternative which is specifically tasked with seeking out quality people who aren't currently willing to go through the process.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Why not have a commission to identify, recruit and nominate good candidates, especially those who would increase diversity so that Wikipedia's editorship and adminship would eventually reflect the demographics of our readership more closely? RfA has it's problems, but good candidates will pass. Being an administrator requires one to stand up to withering criticism at times. RfA is like a test of what happens after people get sysop privileges and use them in a contentious situation. Jehochman ^Talk 02:45, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree that good candidates will always pass, and I don't agree that requiring people to stand up to withering criticism in this process is a valid criterion for determining who gets the bit. Indeed, it's precisely the wrong thing to ask good people to have to put up with, and many good people don't and won't. That doesn't mean they will not be good admins. But only a trial run, with evaluations after the fact, will prove it one way or the other.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Very astute! It is great to see you state the very things I have imagined, but been unable to enunciate. My76Strat (talk) 03:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

[Addendum] - Admins are in many ways like policemen. (An imperfect analogy, but it still has merits.) They don't make rules, but they do enforce them. They aren't allowed to do so capriciously as judge, jury, and executioner. They are subject to oversight by the community. And policemen are not elected by the community, but instead chosen and trained through a non-election process. And there are lots of good reasons for that. What I'm trying to do tonight is get people to think about this problem in new ways. I believe our current process is good in some ways, and bad in other ways. One of the ways that it is bad is that it too often filters out people who would be great admins. It is not hard to work with other models - by analogy perhaps to other social institutions - to demonstrate that good people, working under appropriate checks and balances, can be chosen by processes that are not about having a tiny subset of self-selected people show up to vote about it. There are more thoughtful ways that will work well.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I think I like the idea of an alternate, second path to adminship. If something like this were created, I think admins promoted by the non-traditional means must be open to recall and/or a mandatory reconfirmation RFA after 6 months. If an admin is using the tools correctly, they should have no problems passing. Any thoughts? Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I think a mandatory recall process is best - the point is to deprioritize RfA, so making them go through a normal RfA seems counterproductive. If they aren't doing anything bad, then why bother with that, as it will have been shown to be irrelevant. But yes, I think that particularly as this is intended to be experimental and transformative, it carries risks, and making sure that we can roll it back for particular wrong choices made, and making sure that it is easy enough to modify the whole thing radically if it isn't working on the first try, are both incredibly important.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the RFA is broken meme is over rated. Most of the issues revolve around nominations that should have never been taken in the first place, cases where it could have been easily seen that the nomination would fail. It's like clockwork, an RFA fails and a RFA is broken section gets created by one or more of the supporters. There's some work to be done filtering out some not ready for prime time nominations certainly but otherwise I don't see any clear evidence that RFA is failing many capable editors. And some sort of star chamber awarding the bit won't fly unless it was mandated from Jimbo, a process which doesn't seem to have worked out in the past. RxS (talk) 03:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

There are a couple of proposals being worked on which would modify sections of RFA to help avoid the candidates who really shouldn't be running. If something is implemented which would create an entirely new way to become an admin, I think it should wait until some of these proposals have been tested. Ryan Vesey Review me! 04:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I still think Wikipedia:Request an RfA nomination is just the thing RfA needs, for users to get over that 'fear'. It just needs more exposure, the process is still new, but I'm willing to bet that if all the able people who wanted to be admins but were afraid to self-nom knew about this process it'd be flooded with requests. -- œ^™ 04:56, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more (with RxS), let's not forget comments by the most recent RfA candidate (which did not pass), who described it as a "winning experience" and said "I don't think I've seen any RfA with so many opposes that have been so kind and so thoughtful!" Thus proving if a candidate enters the process with the right frame of mind, the process itself is then not so broken Jebus989^✰ 06:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

It would be great if we had more people who are open and receptive to those types of criticism brought up at an RFA. However, the reality is that does not happen – in fact, it's the opposite. How many unsuccessful RFA candidates we have seen completely fall to pieces after a failed nomination? I personally have seen plenty. –MuZemike 22:31, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

section break

Who are some of the good editors wo cannot become administrators? Are any of them willing to go on the record so we can attempt to debug the system? If you thnk RfA is a mess, just try recall! Simply saying the words reasonable and thoughtful does not make it so. The community is composed of people who care deeply about Wikipedia. You, Jimmy, cannot force a sudden change in social dynamics. I think a good path forward is to encourage more good candidates to become administrators, but first, let us try to gather specific facts, rather than arguing generalities. Let me suggest a few starting points. several years ago I tried to recruit User:Athaenara, unsuccessfully at first. She eventually stood for Adminship and has been doing an excellent job. You might also talk to User:Sarah who used to be active recruiting administrators. Jehochman ^Talk 05:07, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

We do have suggestions for improvement to RfA in the melting pot at the moment, but I also like the idea of some kind of parallel process. I totally agree that there are editors out here who would make excellent admins, but who just won't put themselves through the process as it currently stands. (For the record, I don't have any vested interest, as I just don't ever want to be an admin! It's not stuff that appeals to me.) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 05:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Requests for comment/La goutte de pluie for a current case of admin recall working properly. As for good candidates unwiling to serve, I would like more data about why these people don't serve. We should not be designing solutions without first understanding the problem. Random testing is really slow and expensive. Jehochman ^Talk 05:21, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

A simple reading of many of the RfA's demonstrates the real and substantial problem. Many who would be great admins do not run the gantlet for good reason - the key to becoming an admin is to "polish up the apple by the big front door" and never actually take positions on anything controversial at all. And some admins do, indeed, make arbitrary and capricious decisions, meaning the current system does not help in that area all that much. As you are now under the influence of the UK <g>, why not have the WMF establish an "honours commission" to vet special admins? If I recall correctly, such is legally in their purview. I suspect such admins would be quite capable. Cheers. Collect (talk) 07:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I see that my RFA was referenced a bit above as evidence that RFA isn't broken. I have no particular position on RFA reform, but just as a point of information related to this discussion and my RFA, I had been contemplating an RFA for nearly a year before I got up the courage to do it. For a long time, I simply felt that my level of need for the tools was not enough to tip the scales in favor of going through the unpleasantness of an RFA. When I finally did open my RFA, I was almost positive that I would be savaged for various small errors I'd made or unpopular opinions I'd expressed over the past three years. I got lucky and wasn't opposed for those things, but even for someone who (eventually) "sailed through" as I did, RFA is a seriously intimidating experience which often, on balance, doesn't seem worth the pain. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 13:37, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I wholly endorse the sentiments of this statement as another recent administrator (early July). Worm^TT · (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

As the one who (i believe) first mentioned your RFA I disagree strongly with one key point. You say you "got lucky". 100% false. It's not luck that makes one person pass overwhelmingly and another snow close. You were afraid because of the propogated myth that good candidates get savaged. Good candidates do fine. Maybe what keeps good candidates out are those who promote this idea that RFA is hell, when it's only bad for those who shouldn't be there in the first place.--Cube lurker (talk) 13:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure I wholly agree with that. Yes, Fluffernutter is a great candidate, who should (and indeed did) pass overwhelmingly, but many candidates are not so lucky. Editors vote based on comments by other editors, and in my opinion, most RfAs snowball either way based on the first flurry (48h?) of voting. The fact is that no candidates should get "savaged". Worm^TT · (talk) 13:56, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

But many deserve to snow close if they show up on the RFA page. When one editor gives a solid reason why it's a bad idea to give them the tools it would be a horrible thing for everyone else to say "let's give them the tools anyway". For the record I also disagree with the charactarization of explaining good reasons for opposing as savaging.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:06, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree - people do start RfAs who are clearly not ready for adminship and that's the area I've focussed on in RfA reform. There should be a way of stopping candidates from having a harrowing ordeal. Oh, and savaged was your word, butOn "savaged" I can tell you that any opposes at an RfA do have an effect - and whilst you can view them as a positive experience, it's like all feedback and can be unpleasant. Worm^TT · (talk) 15:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

(To Clarify) Savaged was Fluffernutters word, and I refered to the savaging as a myth.--Cube lurker (talk) 15:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) "RfA is broken" is more a moniker for change than an actual condemnation of RfA. RfA reform is a great idea and I support positive steps to improve it. But this thread is about an alternative that would work in conjunction with RfA, not in lieu of. I think it's a great idea and frankly can't see reason to object such a trial. It's similar to a defendants right to waive a jury trial. Some would rather let the judge decide, but this does not hinder another persons right to choose a jury. It just says that there could be a class of editor who would prefer requesting the permission by a different means. IMO My76Strat (talk) 14:14, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Just FYI I haven't outright opposed anything here. Devil is in the details though. I do find many of the comments about the current process do not match what actually occurs.--Cube lurker (talk) 14:22, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, when I started editing, I thought RFA was broken because everybody told me it was broken. In reality, I think RFA is fine, not great, but fine. I am hoping that some of the RFA reform work can help to create a better RFA, but I do not believe that it is "broken". Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

RFA was a highly positive experience for me, with a little useful feedback in the couple of opposes. I too did um and ah over submitting my RFA (especially as a self-nom), but I think in some respects that is an important part of feeling ready. Perhaps RFA is too scary (in fact, it probably is) but I think removing all the fear is not good. Similarly we have double standards which annoy me - admins regularly get away with behaviour that would have insta-failed any RFA (or acted as a major roadblock). I see nothing wrong with picking apart contributions and making criticism of candidates; except we do it too harshly, and we don't continue to do it after RFA. --Errant ^(chat!) 14:37, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I too think it could do with improvement (hence my work in reform) but doesn't need to be thrown out. As for an alternative, I think that's a great idea - though what form it should take, I do not know. I'd rather it was discussed further, I can see big problems with the "committee" idea - though most have been raised earlier and can be resolved. Worm^TT · (talk) 14:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to echo Jehochman's question, who are these editors that cannot become admins because RFA is broken? If we don't have some examples, there's not much to support the claim that RFA is broken. I think what's happened is those 3 words have been repeated so often people start just assuming it's true. Good candidates sail through for the most part. Bad candidates do not. We probably need a better way to treat bad candidates...so maybe a better slogan is RFA needs tuning. Not as flashy, but truer.

But for now, we need to see some examples of editors that cannot become admins because of problems with the process. Over and over I hear that good editors are not running out of fear of the process, but I never hear names. RxS (talk) 18:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps a simple change would help. Instead of voting "support" or "oppose" we could change the discussion to "now" or "later". It would be kinder to tell candidates they are not ready yet. Anybody who wants to be an administrator should have the opportunity once they are ready. If somebody runs, we can explain what more we'd like them to do to get ready. It would also help to stop bringing up old mistakes. Jehochman ^Talk 18:56, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Jehochman, that's got to be my favourite simple change that I've seen regarding RfA. Absolutely inspired. Worm^TT · (talk) 19:23, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I actually like that. It might just be a surface change, but it could be a meaningful one. Later !voters would then be more likely to focus on what the candidate could do to improve their editing rather than on what is wrong with the candidate. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:46, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Personally I don't like being put in the position where i'm forced to lie.--Cube lurker (talk) 19:48, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

How are you forced to lie? Instead of saying what is wrong with the editor, say what they should do to become ready. Later, needs to avoid edit warring. Later, needs to get better at maintaining NPOV. This is much more constructive than, opose, edit warrior, or oppose, POV pusher. Jehochman ^Talk 21:29, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps "Now", "Not now", and "Neutral" would be a better fit. I don't intend to speak for Cube lurker, but perhaps a participant does not believe that "Later" will make a difference, hence the untruthful sentiment. Such a participant could however, align within "Not now" and still personally hold it to internally mean "Never". By the way, I too believe this is a valid improvement to the existing RfA, and would hope to see some form of it soon incorporated. My76Strat (talk) 22:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

My76Strat has the gist of my thoughts. Most of the opposes I've made I could say maybe later. However there are some candidates I could not say I might vote for them at a later date and be telling the truth. Most people need more experience, however some people have demonstrated that they're fundamentally unsuited for a position of trust.--Cube lurker (talk) 23:13, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

That's a really decent idea. With a little tuning it might really help. RxS (talk) 01:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that it is possible to take strong positions and still become an admin. I've certainly never been shy. That said, WP:Requests for adminship/Kww 3 was an example of nearly everything that can go wrong with an RFA going on at once, and undertaking WP:Requests for adminship/Kww 4 was not a decision I undertook lightly, and the timing was driven by taking advantage of a moment when the editors that had tanked my earlier RFA were both blocked at the same time.—Kww(talk) 23:02, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Interim summary

To my observation, the direct statements made by Mr. Wales, coupled with reasonable statements in response, show positive reasons to create this alternate process. Mr. Wales, what would be the most prudent next step? Is this a thing you would rather implement by executive authority, or would you prefer the community to hash out a process under a set of objectives? Answering these questions will prove immeasurably valuable, as we all anticipate our own allocatable time. My76Strat (talk) 01:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

In anticipation of an answer, I'd like to offer that I think it would be great if you jump-started the alternate process by executive means. This because I believe you could expeditiously deliver such a process, and who could argue that Wikipedia's best interest were not at core. Your input is integral to this discussion. It is necessary. My76Strat (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Since the drought began in early 2008 the longterm trend has been for a drop of about a third in the number of successful RFAs each year. Last year we had 75, this year we'll do well to get much more than fifty. I had thought that we had a fair bit of headroom before this started to cause problems, but we've already seen a transition from the most active hugglers being admins to the reverse. There are plenty of editors out there who could easily pass if they could be persuaded to run, as it is still possible for very good candidates to get through, though I suspect that the few who are willing to try often wait till they are so overqualified that it becomes an inauguration. My experience as a nominator, including nominating four of the last fifty successes is that persuading good candidates to stand is as much of a problem as the over inflated standards, and that it is the sometimes poisonous atmosphere at RFA that deters many good candidates. I think we could improve things by insisting on opposers furnishing diffs, as in my experience the least useful but nastiest opposes focus on the candidate rather than on a diff of an edit by the candidate. A real step change in the process would require us to do what we have done for Rollback and Autoreviewer - agree a criteria that prospective admins should be judged against. Once you have that then it is easier for potential candidates to decide whether they are ready yet, and arguments such as whether admins need to have DYKs, FAs, AIV experience or a particular tenure and edit count can be had on the talkpage of the RFA criteria page rather than in individual RFAs. That criteria could be used either by a panel of crats or by an existing RFA process, If we were to empower panels of crats to appoint admins in a parallel process then I think it would be important that the community had input into the criteria that the crat panel was judging against. An alternative option which I think would keep us going for quite some time would be to create a specific mop for vandalfighters that let them do the uncontentious stuff - blocking IPs and vandalism only accounts such as are reported to AIV. But which didn't let them delete pages or block editors who had more than 100 edits. This would allow us to give our most active hugglers the tools they need but avoid all the concerns about editors who don't write content being able to block those that do or delete their work. ϢereSpielChequers 10:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

As usual, your thoughtful comments are full of good insight. My76Strat (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

There was a useful start at developing criteria to judge candidates against at User:Mkativerata/Administrator capability statement. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

RfA reform 2011

RfA reform 2011 current progress

Changes to RfA (Since 11 July) A warning now shows when you try to create a new RfA, as well as on transclusion, with suggested reading material and pointing out that users should not undertake an RfA lightly. See the edit notice and WP:Requests for adminship/New message for examples. To encourage those editors who would make good admins but who are unwilling to put themselves forward, a new process has been created WP:Request an RfA nomination. The editors there are willing to review candidates, and either write an RfA nomination for them, or explain to why they believe the candidate is currently unsuitable. Kudpung's very helpful essay, WP:Advice for RfA candidates, has been moved to Wikipedia space. Proposals put forward to the community None as yet Firm proposals Clerks - a proposal for a new role to oversee the RfA process, similar to Arbcom clerks. Minimum requirement - a (perennial) proposal to put in a minimum requirement to apply for adminship. Other proposals (See What this project is not about) Still at the drawing board, these proposals need more work before they are presented to the community: Improvement to current process Radical changes User:Tyrol5/De-adminship reform - a separate project, focusing on de-adminship reform. Pre-RfA proposal Sysop on request

I should also point out that the WP:RfA reform 2011 task force are making some progress. Not only have we enacted some bold changes such as WP:Request an RfA nomination, we also have two proposals that are nearly ready to bring forward to the community. One is a new idea, whilst the other is a perennial suggestion which is backed up with a lot of statistical research. Jimbo, you yourself said that for too long, we have made emotive decisions - which are not necessarily based on fact but rather opinion. Well, members of the task force have been analysing years of successful and unsuccessful candidates, many essays written on RfA criteria and even what other wikipedias do. Worm^TT · (talk) 08:49, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I would just add that this entire thread, which contains extremely valuable comment and opinion, would have been better taking place on the appropriate section of WP:RFA2011, where it would haven enjoyed greater exposure, and where the task force could act on the suggestions. I am nevertheless extremely grateful for Jimbo's input here, and feel that we now have excellent material for further development in the project section at WP:RFA/RADICAL.

Any reforms that will improve the environment of the current process, or that can be implemented as a trial of an alternative process are more than welcome on the relevant project pages, and perhaps the WMF could fast-track Jimbo's suggestions for a trial without the need for traditional perennial discussions that always break down even before a consensus can be reached. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:27, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Enjoy greater exposure how? The main page of RFA2011 has 86 watchers, this page has nearly 2.5k Jebus989^✰ 09:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

And WT:RfA has just as many. What has ever been accomplished there? RFA2011, with its 86 watchers, has so far proven to be more dedicated, productive and accomplished than any other forum to improve RfA. Any discussion that takes place on Jimbo's talk page, no matter how complex, is going to yield no better results now than it ever has in the past. At least RFA2011 is doing something, rather than eternally discussing it. I would certainly argue that constitutes "greater exposure". Swarm ^{u | t} 19:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Well that's not really the definition of exposure, and I must be following a different RfA reform project! Jebus989^✰ 20:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I can hardly imagine a stronger dose of RfA reform, than to go from being the only path to adminship, to a path. And I believe RfA will then begin to reform, wanting to remain viable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by My76Strat (talk • contribs)

Note the use of the term "greater," which does not, as you imply, necessarily mean "numerically more." Furthermore, if you know of an RfA reform project that has accomplished more than the current one, please let us know. Swarm ^{u | t} 02:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, didn't RfA review at least trial a new RfA format? I can't remember whose... Jebus989^✰ 07:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC) edit: here you go. Though it's credited as coming from WT:RfA (the place that accomplishes nothing)

Given that it didn't catch on... I'd say WP:Request an RfA nomination and the stats that have been produced are more of an accomplishment. But this shouldn't be a case of one-upmanship, my point in this section is that RfA reform is making progress - and my feeling is that the community is ready for change. Worm^TT · (talk) 07:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

To answer Jehochman

This chart clearly shows that either good editors are not running for adminship, or the immense majority of us editors are not good editors - something I doubt very strongly. There has been a sharp drop in participation, even as failure/success rates remain more or less stable ~65% failure, unlike the ~25% failure rate of the first few years. The stabilization of failure rates at such a high percentage coupled with a decrease in participation, usually signifies (in political science) that a hivemind dominates the process - there is no set criteria, but the criteria that most people who vote on the RfA seems to be a shared one, and one that alienates the majority of editors, so they do not participate. The numbers are clear.

And you ask for an example of an editor who should be admin but who isn't an admin for the wrong reasons, I give you User:Soman. When I recently queried hims as to why he was not an admin, he told me he had been nominated but failed. I checked, that had been 4.5 years ago! The process was so discouraging, that 4.5 years have passed and he still is not interested: Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship/Soman

Not even one hundred people participated all taken together. Makes you wish for an accountable but undemocratic electoral college, rather than a .001% sample deciding democratically.

Today, years later, I could think of dozens of admins that have the The Mop more as an merit badge and deserve it less than Soman because they never deploy it. Could you imagine how incredibly productive would someone like Soman, who has created over 3500 articles would be as an admin (and at his RfA, he had done over 2000 articles). Hypotheticals on the finer point of policy (things that can be learned on the job!) did him in. Our loss.

We are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.

That he is not an admin is a sad testament of how broken the system is.

(taken from Wikipedia:WikiProject_Military_history/News/July_2011/Op-ed)

Successful requests for adminship on the English Wikipedia

Month\Year	2002	2003	2004	2005	2006	2007	2008	2009	2010	2011	Totals
January		2	13	14	44	23	36	6	6	3
February		2	14	9	28	35	27	9	7	9
March		8	31	16	34	31	22	13	2	9
April		6	20	25	36	30	12	14	8	3
May		10	23	17	30	54	16	12	8	6
June		24	13	28	28	35	18	12	6	4
July	3	11	17	31	26	31	16	10	7	4
August	4	9	12	39	26	18	12	11	13
September	0	17	29	32	22	34	6	8	6
October	0	10	16	67	27	27	16	7	7
November	3	9	27	41	33	56	11	13	4
December	1	15	25	68	19	34	9	6	1
Total promoted	44	123	240	387	353	408	201	121	75	38	2000
Total unsuccessful	n/a	n/a	63	213	543	512	392	234	155	55	2167
Total RfAs including by email	44	123	303	600	896	920	593	355	230	93	4157

Personally, I would trust the tools to any editor that meets a predetermined criteria (perhaps even including a pass/fail theoretical and technical competence test using third-party testing tools) and requests the tools, like we do with rights like filemover or rollbacker, and then create a process for removal of these tools only if they are misused or abused. I would then support an consensus process for supervisory admins that are responsible for monitoring and helping 'crats desysop as needed, and then use RfA only for immediate appeals of desysop or for re-sysop after some time to correct the problem has passed. There is nothing even a malicious admin can do that cannot be undone easily - I run MediaWiki professionally, I know this. Desperate times call for desperate measures.--Cerejota (talk) 13:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

These are not desperate times; Wikipedia is doing fine with less admins being promoted, thanks to the evolution of automated tools. There are backlogs in some areas, but blowing up RFA isn't the answer to that. And every system I've seen that relies on "predetermined criteria" leaves aside temperament, which is obviously a big factor for many RFA voters. Bottom line: if the community perceived a need for more, less-qualified admins, the community would promote them. Townlake (talk) 14:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That chart mirrors the amount of new editors joining Wikipedia. We see stats like that a lot in this context, but no one connects the dots between the decrease in successful RFAs and the process being broken. We're in a period of declining participation, we should expect admins levels to mirror that. And anyone who says that admins can't damage Wikipedia hasn't been around AN/I enough. There's been a long line of disruptive admins that have chased new and experienced editors away and wasted a gigantic amount of time.

Have you nominated Soman or asked if he would like to be nominated? If editors won't ask for the tools, pushing them on them isn't a solution. I still don't see any evidence of a large pool of editors that would like to be admins but don't ask because of the process. RxS (talk) 14:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

You are seriously suggesting there has been a 93% drop on new auto-confirmed editors? Because that's the percentage of the drop from the peak of new admins to what we have today. Just look at any backlog here, any backlog. The other day it took me 30 minutes to find an admin to do a history merge to fix another user's copy-and-paste move on a high profile article linked to the main page! The only thing there is no backlog on is user blocks, which tells you where the priorities of most extant admins lie. I am very saddened by the unwillingness to recognize these issues, because they might kill the project as a going concern, kinda like some of the wikia wikis, all readers, no editors.--Cerejota (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course not, but the pattern is the same. There's an unmistakable trend there. I looked at CAT:ADMINBACKLOG and I don't see any raging fires that would provide a compelling reason to change the way RFA works. I'm not unwilling to recognize these issues but no one is doing a very good job pointing what they are exactly. RxS (talk) 20:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

30 minutes? I've been waiting 20 days for a reviewer at GAN, several other noms have been there much longer. There's plenty more active admins than there are good GAN/FAC reviewers! Jebus989^✰ 21:04, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That is actually an excellent point. I wrote here a while ago that we need to create incentives for that. Right now having The Mop is seen as more awe-inspiring socially and than being a GAN/FAC reviewer and that is entirely the inverse of what it should be. That is another topic, however. I just wanted to say that I agree.--Cerejota (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Please continue the discussion at WT:RFA. Jehochman ^Talk 15:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I would, but I see no continuation/reply there, only an entirely different discussion.--Cerejota (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Moving on

Users who are in favour of changes to the way we select our admins, and who have something positive to offer, are invited to continue this discussion in the appropriate pages of the venue that has been created for the very purpose of discussing concrete suggestions for change - otherwise this thread risks becoming the kind of banter at WT:RfA where nothing much ever gets done by the 2,500+ posters except to archive the perennial threads. Many charts, tables, and extrapolations of data have already been provided by the task force, and will obviate the need to assume, surmise, and jump to conclusions. Here are already four excellent reasons for reform that do not need to be constantly repeated:

1. I am less concerned about candidates who fail the current process and more concerned about good candidates who don't bother standing for the current process because it is a nightmare and not worth the effort.--Jimbo Wales
2. Many people simply avoid the RfA process completely. I should add that I don't think RfA comes to the wrong answer all that often. (Like anyone, I might quibble with this or that, of course, but on the whole I think the process basically comes to the right answer. It's just a process that is inherently unpleasant for lots of reasons that are unnecessary and turn off plenty of good people.--Jimbo Wales
3. That great candidates get through is absolutely true. That really awful candidates don't make it is also absolutely true. That many great people refuse to candidate because the process is onerous is also true, though.--Jimbo Wales
4. I don't agree that good candidates will always pass, and I don't agree that requiring people to stand up to withering criticism in this process is a valid criterion for determining who gets the bit. Indeed, it's precisely the wrong thing to ask good people to have to put up with, and many good people don't and won't. That doesn't mean they will not be ghood admins. But only a trial run, with evaluations after the fact, will prove it one way or the other.--Jimbo Wales
   

The workshop with a task force of around 40 participants is here. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

More on respelled pronunciations

I just read article "Meme" for origin of the word, and I was stunned at the intricate IPA-symbolized pronunciation: /ˈmiːm/ - I have studied IPA rules, but the look is so counter-intuitive in many cases (how could a one-syllable utterance "meem" look so complex in IPA?). I am thinking to add the respelled pronunciation "meem" plus indicate a rhyme with "~", so the result could be:

• The word "meme" (/ˈmiːm/^[1], "meem", ~scheme) ....

In that format, the meaning of "~scheme" is "rhymes with 'scheme'" as another way to help pronounce the word. To introduce a respelled pronunciation, the abbreviation "pr." could be inserted as short link to article "Pronunciation". For example,

• The term "siphon" (pr. "Sy-fun", ~hyphen) refers to ....

I know you have discussed this before, so this is just a reminder of some issues to consider, in this case, making Wikipedia easier for new readers of English (who haven't taken a college course in IPA-ology). -Wikid77 13:34, 24 August, revised to link "respelled pronunciation" 09:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Merriam Webster's pronunciation is \ˈmēm\. Ryan Vesey Review me! 13:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikid77, I like your suggestion. As is well known, I'm unhappy with IPA. I don't mind it being there, in case any linguists come by, I suppose, but it utterly fails at our primary task, which is to educate the general public. We should do better.

Now, the rhyming idea is interesting, although I'm not sure most people will understand '~', so why not just spell out "rhymes with"? Excess coding is always bad.

And there will be many cases where "rhymes with" won't work well (if the only rhyming words are equally obscure or hard to pronounce, or where American/British/Indian rhymes differ. In American English, tomato rhymes with potato. I'm not sure that's true in British English.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, “rhymes with” only ought to be used when the rhyme works in all major English accents; writing “Barack (rhymes with rock in North America, with park in England, Wales and Australia, and with rack in Scotland)” would be unwieldy. ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 21:52, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

It certainly isn't. "Toe-May-Toe Toe-Mar-Toe" is one of the best known differences in pronunciation here and often used as a example of the differences (and a good counter to pedants). Timrollpickering (talk) 21:47, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

But I think I have heard "potahto" as well once or twice, though I think that's old-fashioned. (Also, that might have been a non-Briton trying to use a British accent and hypercorrecting it.) ― A. di M.​_plé​^dréachtaí 21:59, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

(You may have heard "potahto" from this.) elektrikSHOOS (talk) 22:40, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

There has been an ongoing war at meme regarding its pronunciation. Richard Dawkins invented the word and specifically wrote "It should be pronounced to rhyme with 'cream'", but those who first hear "meme" in shock forums pronounce it as "me me", and they periodically insert their favored version. Also, many people like to change "rhyming with cream" to some variation: steam, scream, stream, beam, dream, and more (and some editors have felt that "cream" should be avoided because it carries a sexual innuendo—alas, where did the Internet go wrong?). All that is why I inserted the long footnote with a quote from The Selfish Gene where Dawkins describes the origin and pronunciation of the word that he created. Last February, this edit removed "rhyming with cream" from the lead with edit summary "IPA is sufficient for an encyclopedia". I talked myself into liking that edit because it stopped a lot of the nonsense changes the article had attracted, but I don't like the recent edit which inserted "meem" as the simple pronunciation—that would be fine in many articles, but in this specific case where a person wrote a book which introduced the word and its pronunciation, it seems inappropriate to use anything but the author's term. Johnuniq (talk) 22:49, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I vote against adding rhymes. Lots of people don't understand IPA, but that's why we also have respelling. Adding rhymes as well would just be unnecessary clutter in what can already be quite a pressurised space. In any case, rhymes are usually only available for single-syllable words, and even then they don't tell you how to pronounce the first sound. Respelling works reasonably well, and is reasonably intuitive, in a great majority of cases (and if people want more acurately nuanced pronunciations, say for non-English words, then let them learn IPA). 86.181.200.231 (talk) 00:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC) PS: Also, of course, IPA has mouseover help. I forgot that one. I don't know how long it's been implemented, but I only noticed it the other day. It's kind of cool....

Well, as noted, the rhymes help with the "nuanced pronunciations" as with "zinger" rhymes with "finger" but not with "ginger" (pr. "jihn-juhr"). -Wikid77 09:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

That's not what I would call a "nuanced pronunciation". That's a clear and obvious pronunciation difference. To me, "nuanced pronunciation" is more about accurately representing words from foreign languages (rather than just as the approximate nearest English sound), or distinguishing between different English accents -- things that respelling is not designed to cater for. 109.151.39.110 (talk) 11:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Lest anyone forget that despite our mission to educate, we are an encyclopaedia. One expects to find ways of pronouncing a word in a dictionary, which we are not. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 01:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Large numbers of Wikipedia article titles are proper names, most of which don't appear in dictionaries at all. 86.181.200.231 (talk) 02:01, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Just as a point of reference, I checked a World Book encyclopedia in my house. It included pronunciations, so I am going to have to disagree with you that one doesn't expect to find a pronunciation in an encyclopedia. On the same note, I like the way that the pronunciations were done. Galleon was given the pronunciation "Gal ee un". Something similar could be done by Wikipedia; however, I believe it would cause a lot of edit wars over pronunciation. Ryan Vesey Review me! 02:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

As an example, for actor Brendan Fraser, his last name is "Fray-zer" not "Fray-zhur" and Mila Kunis is "Me-la Koo-niss". -Wikid77 09:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

"Meme" is nothing, today I had occasion to look up Arrondissement. (Probably best not to ask why I had occasion.) Check out the IPA on that one. Completely unhelpful. Admittedly it is not an English word, but we do have article on it, so it would be nice if we gave people some meaningful assistance in pronouncing it. Neutron (talk) 02:49, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps as "ar-Rahn-dis-Smahn". -Wikid77 09:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

And let's not forget the colloquialisms and regional pronunciations - for a start it is sy-fun in certain areas of England, but the more correct version would be -fon. There is no best way to do this, though IPA is the adopted method it is not infallible. Even having people record "correct" pronunciations does not work, as we found out with the Kiev article. It is true that IPA is beyond the ken of most people.

What is needed is something that reads out IPA and so removes the need for the reader to get a degree in linguistics with a major in phonetics. Chaosdruid (talk) 03:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Holy crap, if I only saw the IPA on Arrondissement, and not the word, I would have pronounced it aye-ake-dis-ma. Again, I think we should follow Merriam Webster's pronunciation which is "ə-ˈrän-də-smənt". Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have long been frustrated by WP's use of that IPA stuff. We need to agree on one system (there are many) to add to the current one and give the most common pronunciation and, when appropriate, one, or at the most two, variants. Both British and American pronunciations should be given--American first since "A" comes before "B" and because WP was founded by Americans in the US, except for articles dealing with specifically British topics. The IPA system is, of course, the best and most international, so we shouldn't do away with it. Yopienso (talk) 04:01, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm... a little overly-nationalistic there, perhaps United Kingdom before United States? (and probably as the UK may well have been using the words first, long before the US) As you can see, there are always going to be two sides to every user-induced argument :¬) Best to leave that sort of thing out of it ... for example I am sure there would be many arguments that Aluminium is indeed the correct way to spell it, including Google searches and scholarly references and an endless six week argument causing several people to go on wikibreaks or retire... As I said, best to leave that sort of thing well alone until the non-problematic major points are sorted out ¦¬D Chaosdruid (talk) 05:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• As long as the pronunciations are linked to symbol keys, then a mix would be fine. The intent is to add a very simple alternative to IPA. Many webpages or books use the respelled pronunciations, with just the plain letters, so that form is easy to verify and add into articles. Also, there could be added "American" or "local" pronunciations, such as:

• Halley's Comet (pr. UK: "Haul-eze", American: "Hal-eze") will return in 2062.
• Lafayette, LA (pr. "Laugh-ee-ett") is in south-central Lousiana.
• Cape Cod (pr. "Cahd", local: "Kwod") is in eastern Massachusetts.

When a pronunciation has several variations, then the whole explanation can be placed into a footnote, listing each spoken form. -Wikid77 10:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a need for this "pr" link. The "Respell" template already has a link. Take a look at Saint Helena, to pick an example at random. IPA and human-readable, both with links, and the IPA with mouseover help. For me, this is sufficient. 109.151.39.110 (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The claim that the IPA ˈmiːm for meme is obscure or overly complicated is just absurd. The apostrophe for stressed syllables is also used in many respelling systems. m and i have their usual meanings, and the fact that ː lengthens a vowel is learned very quickly with just a little exposure to IPA.

The real problem is that English is the only major language which has the following phenomenon: Major publishers of reference works are reluctant to switch to IPA, claiming that it's too complicated for their customers. As a result, the introduction of IPA in English reference works is about 10-20 years behind, i.e. only some use it but a lot don't. I wonder what makes German 5th form pupils learning English from school books that use IPA consistently so much more intelligent than the average English-speaking dictionary user... Hans Adler 12:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• IPA is also difficult to write: When using IPA, then extra time must be allotted for writing the special characters (perhaps copied from an IPA character page). It is also important, as noted above, to consider how some students can have an advantage, how any group of "German 5th form" pupils, with a professional teacher, are likely to be much more intelligent (as a group) than the "average English-speaking dictionary user" facing the cruel world alone. Many lone readers will have only limited knowlege of the 163 symbols in IPA, not counting the symbols for lisping or clicks. So, people who do not know IPA should be careful not to create jibberish pronunciations, and should, instead, put simple pronunciations, such as formatted in italics by Template:Respell. For example, to indicate Elmer Fudd's remark about a foolish rabbit, an editor could write, "Siwwy wabbit" (without knowing the 170 IPA symbols needed for an equivalent pronunciation). Leave the IPA-editing to users who are fluent in the vast, complex IPA character set, but get the simple pronunciations into articles where some readers have been waiting for years. -Wikid77 11:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Aren't you using the edit window drop down that has IPA on it? (Insert/Wiki markup/.../IPA (English/IPA...)

Also, one can always ask for IPA help - there are quite a few out there who, after debating the semantics of various slightly different gutteral i's for a day or two, usually come up with t pretty good rendering.

THe problem is not writing it though, it is finding a way for the general reader to understand it. Chaosdruid (talk) 22:13, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

How much unsourced material should be left in articles?

Hello Jimbo,

There's a discussion over at talk:Verifiability which could really use your input. Here's how I see the issues:

Wikipedia is full of obscure articles with unsourced content, much of which has been marked as unsourced for years. No one is ever likely to source it.

Some of the information is OR. Some is out-dated. Some is correct and some is incorrect.

Regular editors don't have time to sort through thousands or tens of thousands of these articles, and source them or try and figure out which parts are right- or even read through them, for example abandoned articles on individual high schools.

The choice is therefore whether, long term, we leave this information in or take it out. It's a choice between greater reliability versus honoring content which might be correct and might be of use (but which gets more and more out-dated). Here's an example (tons more).

I have suggested that WP:BURDEN be modified to read "You may remove any material lacking a reliable source that directly supports it. How quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article. Editors might object if you remove material without giving them time to provide references. It has always been good practice to try to find and cite supporting sources yourself, but it is better to remove text which is uncited than to let it remain indefinitely."

Others feel that we should not try to draw this line as a matter of policy, or that we should err on the side of keeping material if we don't know it's wrong. "The fact that no citation has been given for something [which has been tagged] for a very long time is not in itself conclusive evidence that it is not good (i.e. potentially sourceable) information. It's quite destructive to the encyclopedia just to remove information...due to the lack of citations - you ought also to have some reason to expect, based on your own knowledge, research, common sense or something, that it really is wrong or unsourceable."

I think the discussion needs your perspective on the overall state, direction, and future needs of the encyclopedia as regards unsourced material. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 00:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I completely disagree with this. I think it is much more important to leave information in an article unless there is a valid reason to challenge it. The burden only lies on the person wanting inclusion if someone challenges the information. You wouldn't be in favor of deleting every unsourced article, would you? Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Ryan. If all unsourced information is removed from the encyclopedia, it becomes much less useful and much more difficult to edit in a collaborative environment. It will discourage new users from contributing as well. I don't know about other users, but I learned the basics of wikicode and how to add/edit basic content long before I learned how to cite sources. By requiring all information to have a source, you effectively bite all the newcomers. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 02:43, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Ryan you said "The key assumption to take when viewing unsourced information is WP:AGF. Assume that all information that was added was added in good faith. Deleting this information hints at an assumption of bad faith." This seems to me a basic conflict between good intellectual practice and good social practice. We need to balance both without sacrificing either. I do submit that nearly every section heading in WP needs a source, and that if it's been tagged for a long time it should be removed. "The only way you can show your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material."[1] We simply cannot pretend to be in the process of becoming a reliable encyclopedia while not requiring that information be sourced. And for practical reasons, it must be the responsibility of the authors to source material. Whatever valid caveats and objections, I don't think we will be able to get around the fact that if it's not sourced, it's not reliable, and if it's not reliable, it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. That doesn't mean we have to cite every sentence, but we have to base an article on something, and that something must be stated. Once we accept that, it becomes only a matter of timing. And I submit that a few months or a year is sufficient. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 03:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The solution has already been created. There are templates to mark a comment or an article as unsourced, dubious, or otherwise. This informs the reader of possible inaccuracies. In addition, Wikipedia offers a disclaimer "Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here." I have no problem with unsourced information being removed if the person removing the content has reason to believe that the information is original research, or is false/misleading in some way. Haphazardly removing all unsourced information is not the solution though. It takes a bit of skill to realize what is bad and should be removed and what is good. Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Ryan. The first example BeCritical offers does not have controversial information in it. There is no reason to believe the assertions about a high school booster's club are false; who really cares if they're sourced? If you do, by all means tag them! That's what those tags are for. Yopienso (talk) 03:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I tend to agree with BeCritical. A lot of stuff like that should simply be removed. For good social practice, I would recommend first looking quickly for a source, then tagging it with a dated citation needed template. If no citation is forthcoming in 6 months time, though, I recommend simply deleting. In particular, the Booster club example is something I'm just going to remove right now as it is badly written and unencyclopedic and has no source. People really should remove such stuff. (Update: actually someone beat me to it.)

I also agree with Ryan Vesey on this point: haphazardly removing stuff is a bad idea. But I don't think anyone is suggesting doing it haphazardly. It should be done in a thoughtful and orderly way. But it should be done.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I wasn't considering doing it haphazardly. Could you give us your take on the context here? What I mean is, are we looking at sort of a gradual shift into a new era of Wikipedia, where we aren't focused on headlong expansion, and have to think more about long-term maintenance and shepherding of the material? I know that's a leading question. You work with the overall structure and I and a lot of people would be very interested if you put it in that context. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 05:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• WP:AGF, copyvio, and sample 5 facts to verify: The major point is "assume good faith" (WP:AGF), because it really seems to reflect reality. After spending years verifying hundreds of factual issues, I have found very few that were not correct. As noted above, there is no reason to believe someone will mislead about the size of a town, the names of churches, or what the tourists will see, and when facts go awry, there are typically enough people to correct those. The German Wikipedia, for years, has had almost no sources in articles. The bigger worry is someone inserting copyrighted text, or having no article (at all) for a major topic; hence, "Vincent Price Art Museum" has been deleted twice because of copyvio, and there is still no article, after 11 years, for that L.A. museum created by Vincent Price. In many cases, a copyvio can be spotted when searching to verify a phrase of, perhaps, 6 words, where the exact phrase matches within the exact sentences, and then a who-came-first check must be made to see if the match is a WP-mirror website parotting WP's article (or a real copyvio). If there are worries, then spot-verify a random sample of 5 facts, in an article. So, if 5 random facts all check as verified in sources, then what are the chances that other (unsourced) text is not WP:verifiable? Use statistical process control to assess article quality. Then, after checking for copyvio, the other big issues are lack of major facts, image-sizing, and next check the grammar or spelling issues. -Wikid77 05:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh dear. Leave as much 'information' as possible? So Wikipedia should be a like a water fountain gossip session? Is it so bad that no one here understands any longer that knowledge is transmitted both by stating opinion and verifiable praxis? Or that they need to be identified as such? Or that one Wikipedia article that is demonstrably wrong is not a valid support for another committing the same mistake?

[Note: comment has been edited by Jimbo to remove insulting remark. Peter, please.]

Regards, Peter S Strempel | Talk 07:20, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem with removing all uncited information is this removal. Had it not been brought to this venue, the information would have been lost. Instead, notice the similarities between the new, cited version of Salmon High School and the old uncited version. Removing information when there is no reason to believe it may be false does more harm to an article than good in most cases. Ryan Vesey Review me! 07:28, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree. Nothing is ever really lost in Wikipedia - it would have been in the history. And we're a LOT better off deleting unsourced information (indeed, my view is that articles like this should be deleted, but that's a debate for another day) than in leaving in with a sort of naive hope that it'll be ok somehow.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem here is that the 'information' you speak of is similar to me saying to someone: "Obama won the election by using twitter and getting Emmanuel to send a few dead fish to some senators". Should my personal version of what may or may not have happened trump verifiable facts? Should it take a direct challenge to a source or assertion to propose that some Wikipedia articles will report to the world, as a matter of fact, that some silly gossip is the 'truth' of the matter because no one has yet got around to disproving it?

Moreover, should Jim Wales's support for your proposition mean that something that is untrue suddenly becomes true? Regards, Peter S Strempel | Talk 07:40, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

What support for my proposition are you referring to? I have not proposed anything. If I saw your hypothetical post, I would have immediately removed it. It is unsourced and unlikely to be true. What occurred at Salmon High School was a mass deletion of unsourced material solely because it was unsourced. No thought was put into finding sources or whether or not a source could be found. Personally, I like to source every single sentence (outside of the lead of course). That doesn't mean every sentence on Wikipedia without a citation should be removed. Ryan Vesey Review me! 07:46, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

So my 'gossip' should be removed because somehow it is self-evidently gossip, but other gossip should remain because there is some invisible, unknowable mechanism that verifies it? That's a valid theory so long as it's called propaganda or PR. So when I say something for which there is actually plenty of sourced evidence, but I don't source the evidence, it should be deleted because it's outrageous (just like the episodes that make it so), but when uncontroversial claims that are unsourced are made they shouldn't be deleted just because no one says they are untrue? Why don't we just hang or burn witches again just because 'good' boys don't say they lied when they said they saw these girls fornicate with the devil? I despair about American solipsisms sometimes. Peter S Strempel | Talk 08:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

You hit the nail on the head. Controversial claims must be sourced while uncontroversial claims need not be sourced unless they are challenged. Which is what Wikipedia:Verifiability says when it states "This policy requires that all quotations and anything challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed in the form of an inline citation that directly supports the material." The fact that a school has a football team is highly unlikely to be challenged. In this instance, the information was challenged, so I produced a source. Ryan Vesey Review me! 08:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• The only real issue was the text about the booster club, as being too verbose, and it could have been a short paragraph about raising funds to supplement the "Extracurricular activities". As people are verifying text, then most of the old text is being restored, and hence, the old text can be used as a guiding compass about what to state. The school week being 4 days (Mon-Thu) is a significant issue ("notable within topic"), and that is not similar to gossip. However, any time an article gets a total makeover, then it can be updated for the latest known facts, and in this case, the page can note there is no "school mascot" after the racial lawsuit, but the former mascot was the American Indian head. Formerly, high schools in the U.S. had mandatory sports classes for each year of school, but that has changed, and some schools have only academic subjects, in later years. Such facts are important to note, and could be mentioned for older schools which changed from 1-hour classes to 90-minute classes, and such. However, perhaps only school teachers would care to read about those details. -Wikid77 08:28, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

There are a lot of people saying that only controversial material needs to be sourced. That's not actually correct, all information needs to be sourced if challenged, which means that someone asked for the source. We're not talking here about removing information which hasn't been challenged. "Controversial" just means that it's not common knowledge. So anything that isn't common knowledge needs a source if challenged. Also, while it is nice for the challenging editor to try to source information, and the challenging editor might want to do so if they feel that the information is really important to the world, it's not incumbent on them to source it themselves- that was the original author's job.

As to (perpetual) templating being a solution, I don't think so: it's just a step in the direction of eliminating material which may not meet reliability standards. What we could do is to have a template which links to the information that was taken out, thus preserving the info for any editor who wishes to improve the article (nothing is ever lost, but a new editor might not know where to find it).

We're talking here about the future of the encyclopedia, which means that there are practical concerns: we can't be expected to take as much time to verify before we delete info as recommended above. It's just not going to happen, and it hasn't for years. If anyone has a means for us to get a few more thousand editors willing to do boring and repetitive work, then maybe so. It's nice that this one article out of hundreds of unsourced articles about high schools has been spruced up, but how many are you going to do? Are you going to get to the barbie dolls and the unreviewed books?

Reliability means that we know where any information that's not common knowledge is coming from. Anything -anything- that is not common knowledge ought to be challenged. And anything that doesn't meet the challenge ought to be removed eventually (I was giving it a year, Jimbo would give 6 months). Otherwise, we're not a reliable encyclopedia. Please, think of this as an encyclopedia. What standards do you expect in an encyclopedia? We're talking long-term maintenance here. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 17:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I would find it much easier to agree with you if your actions and your words said the same thing. I commented earlier on how you seem to be saying two things at the same time. That all unsourced material should be removed and only challenged unsourced material should be removed. Which is it? Because the content of your removal from Salmon High School had never been challenged. I am completely 100% against removing content without challenging it when there is no reason stated to believe it is false. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Of course it had been challenged. The request for improved sources had been on there since 2008 [2] as I noted in my edit summary, as had most of the information. There was no need to have {{fact} tags on specific information if none of it was sourced. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 19:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

There is a big difference between challenging the content of an article and asking for additional references for the article. I guess deleting information is a heck of a lot easier than a google search. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I believe it is only fair to say that I have occasionally brought an article to AFD without doing a thorough check for sources. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for saying that (; Look at the content of the tag:

That looks like a challenge to me, and is very clear about the potential for deletion if the challenge isn't met. True, it's slightly ambiguous in that it could be interpreted that you have to add tags to make a challenge. But that doesn't make much common sense to me. The template itself is a challenge, and tags are for when you need to challenge specific text instead of a wholly unsourced article. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 19:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

My opinion on that is the tag is designed as a call for sources, not as a challenge. I guess that a challenge is in the eye of the beholder. Ryan Vesey Review me! 19:35, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Wait a second, I thought that was the meaning of "challenge." Because any challenge on WP is basically a request for or about sources (either for better sourcing, about WEIGHT or about proper representation of sources). What other type of challenge is there? The most basic and potent type of challenge is for sources. NPOV, of course, is just a call to properly represent sources (NPOV derives from NOR and V). Oh, there is copyright. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 19:55, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Nope. A challenge means "I believe this is wrong", not merely "I believe this is unsourced and/or not up to our sourcing expectations." That should really be clear by context, else nothing unsourced would be left in Wikipedia, which is nonsensical. Jclemens (talk) 23:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it's not nonsensical. Everything in WP should be verifiable, and "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth, that is not wrongness or rightness. If a challenge to that verification is unmet, then it may be removed. Since "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability" and "The only way you can show your edit is not original research is to cite a reliable published source that contains the same material" and "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material" therefore "You may remove any material lacking a reliable source that directly supports it. How quickly this should happen depends on the material and the overall state of the article." The exception is common knowledge. Policy really makes it very clear, but we're trying to find best practices here. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 23:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Once more, with feeling: Challenging something as unsourced is accomplished by adding an "unsourced" tag. Challenging something as false (the specific "challenge" referred to in WP:V) is different. The privilege of removing unsourced material does not extend to those who dispute material merely because it is unsourced, but only to those who have a good faith belief that the material to be removed is likely to be wrong. If we're talking burden of proof, I'd go with "reasonable suspicion", which would require an editor to have a specific articulable reason that such particular unsourced text is more likely to be inaccurate than accurate. Expansively, that could include the wording, poor grammar, age, unhelpful edits made by the same author elsewhere which cast suspicion on his or her good faith, the unlikelihood of the claim... a plethora of "challenges" exist that allow for material removal, but every last one of them boil down to "I think this is wrong" and never to "This is unsourced." Jclemens (talk) 05:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

There may be documentation to support what you're saying, but I haven't seen it. There is no way to create a reliable encyclopedia without sourcing. The sourcing itself increases your ability to rely on the content. Unsourced material is ipso facto less reliable. "Unsourced information may be challenged and removed, because on Wikipedia a lack of information is better than misleading or false information—Wikipedia's reputation as a trusted encyclopedia depends on the information in articles being verifiable and reliable." [3]. As I argue above, it's nice of us to try and fix other people's text, but in practice we don't have the resources. For the good of the encyclopedia, unreliable text needs to be removed eventually. And an essential element of reliability is sourcing. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 03:45, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

So if you believe it's wrong, remove it. If it's unsourced, tag it. If it's unsourced or tagged and you think it needs to be improved, try to source it and remove it if it cannot be sourced. It's a simple way to write a work in progress encyclopedia. Ideally, articles with more traffic should get fixed first, but since volunteers work on whatever they feel like, there may be perfectly accurate, unsourced material that languishes for years. The way you deal with the risk of unreliability is to tag things. I have no problem with unsourced, benign text being removed "eventually" for values of eventually that include someone actually spending a few minutes to try and find a source. The level of effort codified in WP:BEFORE is not an unreasonable burden for text that no one sees any problem with besides the fact that it's unsourced. Remember, someone took the time to write it in the first place, even if they haven't returned since; we should only discard donations when we've ascertained that they're not trivially fixable. Jclemens (talk) 03:59, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Right, I'm not talking about deleting articles here, just text, though some of the same principles would apply. If you have no problem with text being eventually removed, I guess we only would disagree about the level of effort that is sustainable. I simply feel that given the enormous amount of unsourced text in marginal articles like those on high schools, barbie dolls, movie rolls for barbie dolls, books etc., it actually is unreasonable to ask an editor with an itch to clean up to spend 5 minutes on each one- let alone the time it would take to actually read the text to see what needs to be sourced. Of course, if the text is on a socially important topic (science, major concepts, whatever), then one would do well to spend the time to try and source it. WP is losing editors, and the regulars usually don't do much in the way of article work. We have to consider whether we want to keep unsourced and usually out-dated text forever, or just remove it. In my belief, what we need to do is make a template saying "unsourced text was removed and here's a link to it in case you want to source or improve it." I'm not advocating utterly unthinking removal, just a lessening of the burden so that we can have a somewhat smaller, but more reliable encyclopedia. Policy pages and templates keep saying "unsourced text may be removed," but even though every new editor is informed of this, we're still asked to spend our time trying to find sources that the original author should have provided. Doing a careful job of sourcing takes hours of checking each claim, too, so we're either being asked to shoulder a very heavy burden, or else do a sloppy job. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 04:27, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Notability of High Schools

While I am certainly not going to recommend a revert of your re-addition of the notability tag to Salmon High School, could you please review my remarks on the talk page of the article? I have just been going off of what consensus has been since I joined in February. Perhaps a new policy could actually be created/implemented one way or the other. Ryan Vesey Review me! 05:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I just commented on the talk page and am happy to discuss it further. I'm also thinking about editing that essay, which I think is just wrong. It would be overwhelmingly voted down if proposed as policy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:42, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have commented on the talk page of the article. In addition, I believe the notability tag can now be removed from that article. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:04, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the essay. A cyclical routine has been created. The essay talks about why editors !vote keep for high schools and editors !vote keep for high schools because of the essay. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the point that you added has a basis in current consensus (I agree with your position, but I think we are in the minority). I don't think a single verified high school has been deleted at AfD in years. Of course consensus can (and, in my opinion, should) change, but the way consensus at AfD works is that if a high school is verified by a reliable source, then the AfD will close as "keep" (and, most likely, the nominator get slapped by a trout). ThemFromSpace 06:21, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

What about a salmon? ;) Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:22, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Just as a question on notability. What is the basis that every College/University deserves an article? There are many small technical colleges with little information. Check out Teacher's Training College of Kruševac. The high school in my town has much more information than that. Ryan Vesey Review me! 06:25, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Schools have documented news/book notability: I think the point is still to know the school/college is mentioned in WP:RS sources, so that not every "village classroom" gets an article. However, ironically, because village schools are relatively rare, they are very likely to be notable from coverage in demographic documents or United Nations reports, etc. But, at least, people should not be inventing the "School of What's Happening Now" as a WP:HOAX, WP:SOAPBOX, or WP:COI for a private-school ploy to use WP as an advert for their school. I would still trust if an editor wrote, unsourced, how their innercity school shared a stadium with other nearby schools, rotating home/away games to allow each to have "Friday night football" but the school should not be a small corporation using WP to place ads. -Wikid77 08:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Unless such information about sharing a stadium, etc, can be sourced, it has no business in Wikipedia. It's not about trusting or not trusting, it's about what it means to be a quality reference work.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:11, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• I happen to agree that High Schools are not inherently notable, but I think I should point out the reason for confusion is that people took something Jimbo said[4] and ran with it. It lead to these guidelines and the fact that High Schools are exempt from WP:CSD#A7 (discusions here). Now, the encylcopedia is a very different place than it was in 2003, but I just thought I'd re-iterate the background. Worm^TT · (talk) 10:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• I watchlist a lot of high schools, maybe a hundred or two. They are cesspools areas of concern. Constant vandalism, tons of unsourced claims about the prowess of the sports teams, lists of clubs, copyvio'ed alma maters, copyvio'ed material from the school website (school and college articles are the worst for plagiarism -go figure), and totally unsourced lists of notable alumni that have to be patrolled for people who are claimed to have gone into gay porn, or district managers of paper companies. Whatever decisions mandated that all high schools are notable did a great disservice to the project. They are among the most problematic parts of Wikipedia.   Will Beback  talk  10:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC) revised 12:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is any such consensus. I hope you'll join me in improving Wikipedia:Notability (high schools), which is an essay which may have persuaded people falsely otherwise. The truth is that most high schools are not notable.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I've certainly watchlisted it, and will attempt to chime in when I've got a bit of time. Worm^TT · (talk) 10:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to pretty strongly disagree with your statement that there is no consensus on the issue--the argument you make in the essay is that because we don't have articles on most high schools there is no consensus that we should. Instead I'd argue that it's just because we haven't gotten to them all yet. The way to judge consensus on the issue has to be to see how high school articles have fared in the past. I've personally not seen a high school article deleted in the last 3 years and I think I've only seen 1 or 2 merged. There have been dozens, if not more, kept. Consensus has been pretty clear thus far and I don't see any evidence that there is a significant group that believes otherwise. Hobit (talk) 11:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. Many people believe that these are extremely problematic articles, see the discussion above from Will Beback. There is no consensus that these articles are exempt from normal notability policy.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:12, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I won't dispute that they are problematical articles, one of the risk words I patrol is Pubic and you'd be unamazed at the number of schools that think we are so short of cash that it would help us save a few electrons by removing the first l from "Public School". But as for notability, I'd assumed the consensus was more that any High School is bound to have generated sufficient coverage to pass the GNG if we did but look. ϢereSpielChequers 11:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Once again the fixation on existence of sources seems to be a problem. The sources that theoretically establish notability of a high school are of no use for us if you have to go physically to the newspaper archive of a little town to find them, and nobody is willing to do that. There is a very similar problem with WP:ACADEMIC, by the way. On the other hand we sometimes have to IAR keep well-written articles on topics that are encyclopedic beyond doubt but for some reason fail the formal notability criteria. Hans Adler 11:42, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have some sympathy for Will Beback's viewpoint, having dealt with quite a lot of this sort of vandalism and unsourced cruft-additions on schools articles myself. However, I really don't think it's as bad as he suggests; only a few days ago, I reverted an IP's alumnus-addition, templated the IP and demanded a source, and the IP duly provided one. Positive result. (Ignore, for now, the fact that the alumnus shouldn't be there as a redlink anyway). Schools articles do get a lot of vandalism, and are, mostly, in an appalling state, with few or no references. However, so are many BLPs, many articles on companies, and so on.

Sportspeople and small settlements, as I understand it, get some of the same "protection from notability requirements" that schools are perceived as having had, and many of those articles have problems just as bad (think of the cases where a minor sportsperson gets a controversial conviction and becomes a BLP problem; or a very minor sportsperson BLP gets vandalised and no-one is watchlisting it so the vandalism stays in for years; or a sportsperson makes a blunder in an important game and there's a hail of BLP-infringing vandalism). People have been enforcing the suggested ban on mass creation of articles on high schools, but seemingly mass creation of articles on small or very small settlements still takes place occasionally; and it's been discussed on this talkpage before, how many of those articles end up being full of complete garbage. (And anyway, is a settlement with 40 people in it, so much more automatically notable than a school with over 2000 people in it?)

I really don't see that high school articles are a crisis area; they are merely a generally low-quality area. And I think the majority of people really do think that the current approach is the best way of handling a difficult situation. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I do, as with any company or corporation out there. I'm certain that there are school district officials who whitewash articles about their schools, just as we know there are corporate officials out there who whitewash articles about their corporations. If I go to Special:UnwatchedPages, I'm sure I will see many school articles on that list, so who knows what is going on there?

This comes back to my point regarding the main topic at hand, which is verifiability: Just because we know there are various parts of Wikipedia that are not reliable, that does not mean that we should not try to make those parts reliable, nor should we expect the general public to accept such parts as unreliable. The reality is that the public still accepts Wikipedia as an authoritative source of information – whether or not its information may be right or wrong. At least I still hear, on an almost daily basis, people who say "go to Wikipedia" or similar to look up stuff related to my conversations with others. –MuZemike 15:29, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• There is no doubt whatsoever that for a long time it has been widely accepted that high schools are automatically notable. This has been accepted in goodness knows how many AfD discussions. I have therefore taken the view that, rightly or wrongly, consensus supports that position. However, prompted by this discussion, I have thought about the question again, and I am not so sure. The line "high schools are automatically notable" is by no means universally accepted, and is very frequently questioned, and often, even when an AfD has closed as "keep, because consensus is that high schools are automatically notable", there has been one or more editors that have clearly been unhappy with that situation. Indeed, I am not sure whether there are actually more editors who think that all high schools should be regarded as notable than those who think not: it may just be that there are more who believe that that is what most others believe, and say "keep" because they believe that is the accepted consensus, rather than because they support that view themselves. There is a good deal of truth in Ryan Vesey's point above about the circularity of the situation: essay says a high school is automatically notable because that's what AfDs decide, but AfDs go that way because the essay says so (and it is not only that essay, but other sources too). The link that Worm That Turned has given above to what Jimbo said in 2003 is very interesting. I don't know how true it is that that was the origin of this "all high schools can have articles" line, but whether it was or not, it seems to me that Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools/Article guidelines misrepresents what Jimbo said, by quoting out of context. Jimbo went on to say "That's true *even if* we'd react differently to a ton of one-liners mass-imported saying nothing more than 'Randolph School is a private school in Huntsville, Alabama, US' and 'Indian Springs is a private school in Birmingham, Alabama, US' and on and on and on, ad nauseum. The argument 'what if someone did this particular thing 100,000 times' is not a valid argument against letting them do it a few times." Well, we now actually are in the situation where a lot of people write trivial articles that say little more (or in some cases no more) than that a school exists, and "automatic notability" is invoked to keep them. Thus the remarks Jimbo made in 2003 explicitly do not apply to the present situation. It seems to me that the notion "all high schools are notable" comes from the image of a typical high school that most editors in the USA have, and to a lesser extent in some other countries, such as the UK. In the USA a "High School" is commonly a pretty large institution, run by some sort of local government, often very prominent in its local community. I can quite see why anyone thinking of schools of that kind thinks "of course they are notable, and it's pointless forcing people to produce sources to show that it is." However, not all high schools or secondary schools are like that. I know of very small and insignificant private secondary schools that certainly don't satisfy any of Wikipedia's notability guidelines, and in many parts of the world a lot of secondary schools are small and non-notable. WereSpielChequers says "the consensus was more that any High School is bound to have generated sufficient coverage to pass the GNG if we did but look", but that is not necessarily true of all types of high school in all parts of the world. It also seems to me to be illogical to use that argument in a case where several editors have looked and failed to find such coverage. Will Beback is only too right about the character of school articles: a very larger proportion of them are spam, essentially use of Wikipedia to publish prospectuses and advertising brochures. While that is not a proof of non-notability, it is certainly a reason for not being happy about a principle which makes it harder to delete them. All in all, these considerations encourage me to think it may well be time to reconsider the widely accepted view that "consensus is that high schools are inherently notable". Finally, Demiurge1000's comparisons with articles on other subjects, such as "is a settlement with 40 people in it, so much more automatically notable than a school with over 2000 people in it" is completely irrelevant, for WP:OTHERSTUFF reasons. (My own view is that a settlement with 40 people in it is almost always not notable, but that is equally irrelevant.) Also, thanks to an edit conflict, Demiurge1000 has confirmed one of the points I made above before I could post it: 2000 may be a typical size for a high school in the USA, but it certainly isn't where I live, and the issue is whether all high schools are automatically notable, not whether typical public high schools in the USA are automatically notable. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • It's not WP:OTHERSTUFF to respond to an assertion that a particular type of article is "among the most problematic parts of Wikipedia" by pointing out that other parts are in fact equally problematic or more problematic. It addresses the point being made. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The flipside of consensus being that sources will usually be there if we did but look is that if someone looks and draws a blank or near blank then a deletion nomination might well succeed. As for settlements that currently only have 40 people, it depends on where in the world you are. Many such English rural villages are the near ghosts of once thriving communities whose notability is assured regardless of the events of the last couple of centuries. ϢereSpielChequers 12:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • The post quoted at WP:WPSCH/AG#N was too long to include in full, and so was cut down to the key points only, with parts skipped indicated with dots. A link to the original post is provided for anyone to view it in full. I did not add the quote originally, but I did change it from a paraphrase to an actual quote. If anyone thinks a better summary can be provided, they are free to edit it and do so. On the whole, I wouldn't object to removing it completely since it is outdated and gives the impression of argumentum ad Jimbonem. CT Cooper · talk 12:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
    • I'd say it should be removed completely. As noted above by someone else, it's been misinterpreted. But in any event, it's very out of date.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
      • I have removed it. CT Cooper · talk 15:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment Notability can be in the eye of the beholder. If most Wikipedians are young, then of course their school is very important/notable to them and they will dig up any trivia possible to meet the threshold. We have Lists as well as Categories for a reason. If a school's article if only a couple of lines long, if belongs in a List unless or until there's more information. That allows for a Redirect to be created for the school's name, so no school would be truly left out of Wikipedia. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 15:44, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the school mascot for a hypothetical school ought to be Schrödinger's cat. -- Avanu (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Slight divergence from the overall topic

We are focusing right now on the notability of High Schools in general, but I would like to quick ask about the inclusion of good articles about High Schools. Lets say an article is written about High School X. The article is well sourced; however, all of the sources come from a)The webpage of the school b)The local newspaper and c)The local newspaper of a rival school. The article lays out information including the administration, sports and other extracurriculars, rivalries with other schools, and maybe some school traditions or notable events (the usual bomb threats/hit lists found etc.). Again, everything in the article is sourced and for the current example we can assume that boosterism is minor or included using quotes. Should this school be included? Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:47, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that's fine, although maintenance and vandalism issues are a factor. What isn't fine is the exact same article with claims that have no sources. If the claims are not negative and damaging, then there is less urgency (from a BLP perspective) about removing them, and so I would advocate a quick look for sources and a dated citation needed tag first, and then deletion of the unsourced material after a period of time.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have no problem with consensus if it does allow articles like this. I know there are many school articles who use Wikipedia as a personal web page, but I don't want the good quality articles to get thrown out with the bad ones. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:57, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I am a frequent contributor to school articles, mostly in South West England but also elsewhere if something interesting crops up in the AfD list or the schools wikiproject. I have seen a lot of the problems described here - one line stubs with no assertion of notability, unreferenced articles, puff-pieces, whitewashed articles, etc. If it is true that high schools are not automatically notable, and for one I would welcome that, then what would be really useful is clear set of high school notability guidelines within WikiProject Schools. As I see it, the quicker we agree on the default position, the quicker we can set about developing consensus on those guidelines by which all high school articles can be judged - and in turn set about cleaning up some of the real crap that is long overdue but has been protected from deletion because of the assertion that high schools are notable. --Simple Bob ^{a.k.a. The Spaminator} (Talk) 17:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

• Comment: In hundreds of high school afds since 2005, almost none have been deleted. There's no better barometer of what consensus has been.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 17:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree with you; however, I am beginning to like some of the new thought that is forming. That well written/well sourced articles on High Schools are notable. If an article on a high school cannot be well-written and well-sourced prior to the end of an AFD, it should be deleted. Ryan Vesey Review me! 17:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
    • One thing that would help is if adding one of these tags automagically notified everyone who had ever worked on the article, and perhaps those signed up for any Project or Subproject the article falls into, such as the town or region. I think this is currently done manually, if at all. No one wants constant spam, but a one-week AfD implies more time spent checking than editing. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 18:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
      • I don't object to a new discussion on the topic, after all consensus does change. But to claim that the massive % of AFDs that result in a keep doesn't demonstrate a consensus is, well, a bit daft. It's clearly a historical outcome and it's also pretty darn clear that any high school is going to have significant coverage. Everyone has won a state championship in something. Every school has had a notable event occur at it that sees state-wide or wider coverage. And the construction of every school sees coverage. (feel free to replace "every" with "99%+"). They are all going to meet WP:N if we look hard enough. Hobit (talk) 18:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
        • Most high schools would be notable even if sources were only in print. But AfDs often don't go the way they should. On one AfD I had to state over and over that "while everyone agrees that this subject should be notable, no one can find a source." That seems to be the reason for keeping a lot of obscure articles on books, entertainment, high schools (or in my example a religious sect [5]). Some things "ought to be" notable- but remain unsourced in actual fact. I don't think that's good enough. But there should be some way to notify editors that potentially helpful information has been removed. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 19:24, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
          • Hobit, I would look forward to watching what the students at the non-notable 1% would decide to do in order to make their school notable and well-covered at least statewide. I have my doubts the principal, teachers and parents would feel the same way. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 19:33, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • IMO, the problem with all of those AFD keeps is that high schools have become notable for being notable. I haven't paid much attention to AFD in a couple years, but back in the day, pretty much the entire reason for keep in most AFDs was the assumption that a high school was inherently notable. As someone who disagreed with that position, I quickly realized that offering a dissenting opinion was a waste of time. Resolute 00:09, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

• All time spent at AfD is administrative overhead that should be minimized and avoided if possible. Having a bright line rule based on history here makes the handling of these AfDs very easy, scrutizing every high school article individually drains valuable resources that should go into creating and improving other articles. Now if Ryan Vesey and Becritical pledge to spend one hour researching every high school AfD for the next ten years, that might be different, but in my experience not many editors participate in these afds and we could end up with a lack of consistency with no discernable benefit if we make a change in standards. Likely, almost all high school articles will still be kept but much more admin overhead will be spent reaching that result, which is not efficient or logical. Anyone with free time is encouraged to come to Wikipedia:Unreferenced BLP Rescue where we have reduced the backlog of unreferenced BLPs from approx 25,000 to under 1,000 in the past year, come be a part of something meaningful, even if your old rival high school is a cesspool that never amounted to anything.--Milowent • ^talkblp-r 19:41, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
  • We should be spending our resources ensuring that all of our articles are fully kept up to our standards. School articles aren't any different, nor should they be avoided in favor of more important topics (many school articles are BLP magnets and attract unwatched vandalism; they need all the attention we can give). ThemFromSpace 19:49, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
    • The AfD process is terribly burdensome. Jimbo said above he thinks that many ought to be deleted, but I personally don't think there is a problem with leaving OR stubs when the subject might be notable. It's when there is a lot of unsourced info that we have the problem. The thing with these school articles is that most likely no-one is ever going to improve them much. Not every article can win the lottery of being randomly selected as an example in one of WP's internal discussions. That's why I went and stubbed the (already tagged/challenged) ones that looked like OR or at least were unverified. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 20:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have had around 600 schools on my watchlist for the last 3 years or so. Will Beback's comments appear (at least to me) to be more driven by emotion than reality. In response to Hobit's claims, I would say the figures are far more than '1 or 2' or 'dozens', perhaps even several zeros need to be added to the numbers. While I firmly believe that it is an error to suggest that schools may be among our most problematic articles, Worm and Demiurge1000 both make some valid observations. The strongest and most accurate assessment of the situation comes in the long post from JamesBWatson which I hope that everyone here will have taken the trouble to read in full. James's comment echoes my position and leaves me still in notability no man's land; I am personally not worried whether schools are notable or not, and all I want to do as a busy WP:WPSCH participant, and admin with a deletion button, is to have a clearly defined policy to implement. I'm sure that most of us who work on school AfDs are tired of having to second-guess an unwritten policy/precedent and I thoroughly support :Simple Bob's sentiment. Now that Jimbo has explained his current position regarding his original 2003 statement , perhaps we can hold an RfC that will reach a consensus and then draft that proper policy. One way or the other . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 20:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Of those 600 school articles you watch, how many are based on secondary sources?   Will Beback  talk  22:54, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I have accumulated a number of around 600 random school articles on my watchlist, and it's only a tiny fraction of the tens of thousands of school pages we have here. Apart from the ones I created myself or helped to GA, they are ones I have repaired, expanded, added infoboxes and images, categorised, referenced, saved from deletion., and kept free of vandalism and puff. I've already stated that I don't have any personal preference one way or the other which way an eventual consensus might go for notability for schools - I just think it would be a very good idea for all this to be clarified once and for all, so that we have some clear rules and recommendations to work to that are officially accepted by the community. Where is the relevance of your question to that? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

My point is that all Wikipedia articles should be based on secondary sources. If we're creating articles for which there are no significant secondary sources then we're violating core content policies. Many, perhaps most, high school articles have no secondary sources for much more than an occasional sports report or scandal. Here's a typical example. Ponderosa High School   Will Beback  talk  02:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to second Will Beback's sentiment; I have had quite a number of high schools on my watchlist (any Recent Changes Patroller will inevitably come upon them). While I think it would be wrong to say that the majority of edits to them are vandalism, I think it would be accurate to say that the majority of edits to them are unsourced, POV, or incorporate excessive WP:NOT content (like a list of every time team X made the regional playoffs, or a list of all of the AP classes at the school). However, I don't think that this has a real bearing on whether or not the schools are/should be default notable, because we don't consider how highly targeted an article is for bad edits when we decide whether or not to keep an article (with the possible exception of some list articles).

Having said that though, maybe the best option for forward progress would be a centralized discussion (Village pump?) on whether or not the current consensus is that high schools should have default notability. Then, the results of that discussion can help inform us whether we should promote WP:NHS to guideline status or rewrite it and clearly indicate it's a historical/non-consensus essay. Like many other editors, I currently accept that the consensus is that all high schools are inherently notable, because that's what I've been told, but I question whether, if actually asked, this consensus would emerge as correct. The problem, of course, is that we're really just debating that fundamental question of whether our lack of a deadline means that we should include things that may possibly be verified for long periods of time, or whether the lack of deadline means that we should wait on these articles until such time as the sources have already been found, so I'm not sure that we'll get a useful result from such a discussion. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the much bigger problem is the hundreds/thousands of elementary/primary schools that have artciles about them and I would love to see a policy that they were default not notable, with clear criteria to show what would make them notable. For instance, does notability of alumni make a school notable? Fmph (talk) 08:53, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:INHERIT Agathoclea (talk) 09:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

More than anything, being noted makes a topic notable. Anytime we make a rule which diverges from that we're likely to end up with a bunch of under-sourced articles. When we write about other organizations we require that there be a minimum of sources. Somehow a special exception has been cut out for high schools, but it is inconsistent with how we treat other organizations.

Qwyrxian is right that school articles often contain too much poorly sourced trivia. The Schools project may be too focused on keeping every article and not focused enough on making sure that all of those articles meet basic standards. Some of the problems with school articles could be addressed with a big cleanup project. But the notability issue should be settled first.   Will Beback  talk  09:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

But WP:INHERIT is yet another essay, and one that is regularly ignored on article pages. A clear policy or guideline that says elementary schools are not notable unless .... would be hugely helpful. Fmph (talk) 09:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Fmph.

That being said, my contribution to this little discussion is that schools do end up being mentioned in various sources, either as the alma mater of so-and-so or where such-and-such happened, or what have you. There are a lot of crappy school articles out there, but it doesn't mean that these articles can't (or won't) be improved. But I think that they're a minority (maybe a large minority) of school articles (judging from the however many Australian schools in my watchlist). Can I suggest, though, that instead of pursuing a kill-on-sight policy with school articles where at least the existence of the school is verifiable that they be userfied/projectified until someone can get through and source them up properly? User:Danjel/Coomera_State_Primary_School is a good example of a school that is probably noteworthy, and can be improved (and will be as soon as I have a moment to do it). ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 13:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

What if there is no consensus?

Putting aside the issue itself, what if there truly is NO consensus? Wikipedia guidelines, policies, practices, whatever you wish to call, seem to assume that there is, or eventually will be, a consensus on any given point. What if this is simply not the case? What if, using this subject as an example, one-third of interested editors believe that high schools are inherently notable, one-third believe that by default they are NON-notable, and one-third have no opinion on whether they are generally notable or non-notable and just take each case on an individual basis? (The three ideas and the numbers are just examples, I realize there are gradations in between and perhaps outside of these easily described positions, and I am not saying those are the proportions of editors in each group. But there are certainly AT LEAST those three positions, and I don't believe there is anywhere near a "consensus" (however defined) for any of them; in fact, I would be very surprised if there were even a majority for any of them.) What then? Do we talk about it and debate it forever? (It seems like we already have; this was a "hot issue" when I became an editor six years ago, and it is a hot issue now, so the likelihood that it is ever going to be resolved seems pretty slim.) Do we have people putting in and taking out paragraphs and nutshells from essays, or creating competing essays, until the end of time? Do we leave it for the AfD process, where the fate of each individual article depends in large part on who shows up? The AfD process on issues like this, where there really does not seem to be a consensus as to notability in general, reminds me of the Wild West -- no "law," no real policy, no real authority, just whoever is quickest on the draw and brings more people to the gunfight wins. There has to be a better way. What is it? Binding votes, majority wins? "ContentCom"? Something else? I don't know what the answer should be, and just as there probably is no consensus on the subject-matter itself, there probably would be no consensus on a method for dealing with it. Perhaps the last sound ever made by humans on Earth, before the Sun swallows up the planet, will be the sound of people edit-warring over whether there should be an article on East Side High. (Hm, maybe I've finally found the idea for the science fiction novel I'm going to write someday.) Neutron (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

.............Um...............yeah. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 23:04, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:NHS

I am shocked that you have made radical alterations to this essay without talk page discussion, particularly as your alterations are completely against consensus through many years of AfDs. TerriersFan (talk) 22:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

On that note, I am starting a new essay which should roughly reflect the opinions laid out in User talk:Jimbo Wales#Slight divergence from the overall topic, at Wikipedia:All High Schools can be notable. Ryan Vesey Review me! 22:55, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed and that will simply establish systemic bias. Pretty well every public US high school can have an article that meets WP:GNG because of the importance of high school sports. However, the majority of high schools in Africa, Asia and other parts of the world will fail because they have no tradition of putting material on the Internet. Are we writing a world encyclopaedia or an Anglophone encyclopaedia? TerriersFan (talk) 23:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

We are writing an encyclopedia which is based on reliable, third-party sources. Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Personally, if the community chooses to say, similar to towns, that all High Schools are notable if their existence can be confirmed, I would not complain. In respone to your statement about other parts of the world not having a tradition of putting material on the internet, material does not need to be on the internet to be a source on Wikipedia (although it is desirable). Ryan Vesey Review me! 23:21, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

(ec)::::Such would be unlikely. In most cases, I would suggest Jimbo is correct there - and that Wikipedia has no problem with mentioning the schools in a "notable" town or city, just not having separate articles on every single Franklin High School in the US, and the like. And the fact that WP has "too many articles" on non-notable schools does not mean that therefore every high school worldwide sould be entitale to a waiverof independent notability. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

We have a whole host of subjects considered to be notable irrespective of meeting WP:GNG:

1. Inhabited recognised settlements
2. Named bridges
3. Numbered highways
4. Singers with a song in a chart in a major country
5. Super-regional malls
6. Airports
7. Railway stations
8. Porn stars who have won a recognised award
9. Fauna and flora
10. Association footballers who have played in a fully professional league
11. Academic full professors
12. High court judges
13. Peers of the realms

And many more. If we are going to tear up all these customary standards and require every page to meet WP:GNG then fine but don't just pick on high schools.

On your other point, experience shows that all high schools can meet WP:GNG given enough time but for non-Anglophone countries, searches need to be carried out in, for example, local libraries and they should not be deleted until those searches have been carried out. TerriersFan (talk) 00:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I fully agree that there are many schools outside of North America and Europe where it can be almost impossible to find information in the time span of one week. In order to address that issue, I am going to suggest moving these articles (where information can almost certainly be found, but it will take a while) to either a user subpage or a subpage of WikiProject Schools. I would also recommend that a redirect be left behind from the school to the city/village it is located in. Since the essay is still developing, I am going to freely add the information. If anyone has another idea and/or opposes mine, please leave a remark on the talk page of the essay. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:18, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Seems sensible here. Collect (talk) 00:24, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Ryan, why not simply suggest a sticky PROD for schools? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The last thing we need is another deletion process with another unique set of rules. Resolute 01:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Precisely. I'm glad you appreciated the irony in my comment. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:36, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I hadn't responded to your comment on a sticky PROD for schools because I couldn't for the life of me figure out what the use of a sticky PROD would be. In fact, a sticky PROD runs contrary to the goal I had in moving such schools to a subpage. Rather than using a statement filled with irony to oppose the idea I had (if that is what you were doing), why don't you lay out your concerns at Wikipedia talk:All High Schools can be notable? Ryan Vesey Review me! 01:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

We need to move away from all "automatically-notable" classes of articles, including the ones listed above. We need sources that provide evidence of notability for all articles. That's a fundamental concept of article writing. ThemFromSpace 01:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If that is the way that we wish to go then fine, lets move all the above classes from notability, and delete all subsidiary guidelines, eg Music, Porn, Sports, Books etc and test every page against WP:GNG. TerriersFan (talk) 01:52, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

These special guidelines have been controversial, for example there's the problem of the thousands of articles on professional athletes about whom little is know beyond their jersey numbers. Guidelines can be helpful in interpreting GNG, but they should not be used to allow articles for which there aren't sufficient sources.   Will Beback  talk  01:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

And most of the pages that are being misrepresented here as declaring subjects to be inherently notable directly say that this is a rule of thumb that lets you figure out whether independent sources are likely to exist, not a guarantee of notability, and that if nobody can actually find suitable sources to support the article, then it can and should be deleted (or, more commonly, merged into a larger topic). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

There is a huge educational/social benefit of having every High School have a presence in Wikipedia, which will instill a sense of pride, and serve as a starting point for educators to teach students about encyclopedias and guide students in various lessons that involve contributing to Wikipedia based on verifiable resources in their libraries. Also, it's unclear how Jimbo's interpretation could possibly be less informed than yours.Wxidea (talk) 04:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Not if the amount of edits they get is any indication. You'd think one or two of those students would edit, but the articles get very few edits, and probably most of them get very very few views [6][7][8]. Compare a general article [9]. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 05:40, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

@Be, that's an invalid page comparison. The majority of Wikipedia pages are only read a few times a year. See (http://www.idea.org/blog/2011/08/09/reaching-the-public-via-wikipedia/). Wxidea (talk) 12:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If WP:GNG is reasonably interpreted (despite, e.g., a strange reference to the infamously misused NOTNEWS), no ordinary high school should have trouble meeting it. Getting together two or more decent sources before starting the article isn't a bad thing. I think that the proliferation of special notability guidelines is one of Wikipedia's worst instances of instruction creep. Maybe we should have one sentence about allowing articles to slip past WP:GNG when primary sources document the subject and it is necessary to complete a group of articles about all members of a defined set - nothing more than that should ever have been started. Wnt (talk) 07:22, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

This page used to be a place where ideas originate that made wikipedia a better place now more and more it turns into a place tearing it down. Let us think for a moment - the reasoning that a High School is classed as notable was made made because for any project like this there are enough sources establishing notability ranging from independant sources covering construction/extention, comparative analysis, awards and championships. As mentioned somewhere recently the smaller the school the more likely it is it has drawn media attention due to parents fretting about the possible danger of closure. Those in themselves are sufficiant for inclusion. The question is can we just assume that these sources exist or do we have to have hard proof. Expecting that hard proof gives a strong systematic bias toward the western (English-speaking) world with a strong slant on recentism. Or do we have enaugh people in Liberia who can check the local newpaper archive and tree markings. There is good reason the foundation is sponsoring a audio sourcing programme somewhere in India. The content of the article is a totally different matter. Using non-notable as a synomyn for problematic is plain wrong. Deal with the content - stubbify - check if there is any outside indication that the school exists. Using presumed notablility has its drawbacks as I have seen footballers who played on international youth level garnering quite some attention (just not enaugh on the internet) deleted while totally unremarkable players get their article for a minutes play. While I would argue for the first to be included I would not argue for the second to be excluded as in order to get to that position of playing for one minute he must already have garnered attention. Maybe we need to through notablility out of the window alltogether and focus on importance /* sarcasm on */ which is totally quantifiable /* sarcasm off */. Agathoclea (talk) 07:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Eventualism is all good and well, but there has to be a starting point. What can we write about a school for which there are no reliable sources, or maybe just the school's website? If we're just repeating information off the official website then why bother having an article? Aside from small local papers may report graduations, awards and sports, almost the only time people write about schools is when there's a scandal or a crime. For most schools there are three alternatives: use just the school website, rely on perfunctory reporting from local sources about trivial topics, or write about shootings and seductions.   Will Beback  talk  09:31, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Seperate issues. Establishing notability (outside sources taking note) and content (Self-published sources and other published sources of dubious reliability may be used as sources in articles about themselves ... so long as the information is notable, not unduly self-aggrandizing, and not contradicted by other published sources). We have a few thousand articles about settlements/communities/municipalities and even towns whose content does not go beyond either the publications of the subject or a rehash of statistical data. Nothing wrong with that as at least the basic whats are covered. Agathoclea (talk) 10:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

WP:PSTS, first line: Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. We can use primary sources but we should not base articles upon them.

Settlements are a different matter from organizations, and best dealt with separately.   Will Beback  talk  10:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll add Wxidea's comment above to my personal list of most important statements made here, especially as the WMF's major focus is to recruit new editors, and TerriersFan's list of thirteen WP:ORG exceptions sheds a different light, so whether as a result of misinterpretation of a comment made by Jimbo in 2003 or whatever, we have some established precedent, so let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet, but let's not not try to re-invent the notability wheel across the site either. Maybe we can just get this issue of school notability sorted out once and for all on a RfC that will finally reach a consensus one way or another.

By providing us with a clear set of rules to work from we could avoid so many school articles from being utter confusion for the new page patrolers who are largely extremely inexperienced in such matters, and prevent school AfDs serving as a traditional battleground for the inclusionists and the deletionists to pit their wits . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 10:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Comment All high schools are notable and belong in Wikipedia, not all high schools should have a separate article. Why is this a contentious point? This discussion started with the example of Salmon High School, a HS in a town of about 3,000 people. At one time, it would have been included as a paragraph or two under Education in the Salmon, Idaho article, along with some mention of the school district and whatever primary schools are in the town. Look at that town's article. Nothing about education, government, or various other topics covered in any good article about a town. Not even a link to the town's official website. The problem is determining where not if notable material belongs in Wikipedia. Instead, we have incessant demands and arguments about separate articles, no matter how thin and unlikely to be expanded. Why are so many so averse to making high schools redirects to their town's Education section? Sounds like an ego trip to me, some sort of "my high school's better than yours because it has a Wikipedia article." This is not meant as a criticism of Ryan Vesey and others who are justly proud of their alma maters, but a reminder that the concept of Undue Weight might well apply to articles themselves as well as sections within articles. Perhaps we need Notable for one place along with the current Notable for one event. Note: If the answer doesn't make sense, make certain you're asking the right question. 75.59.226.225 (talk) 12:58, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, prior to two days ago, I had never heard of Salmon, Idaho or Salmon High School Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the IP. It's a common sense solution. If we don't have enough secondary sources for a rounded article, it merits a peragraph in another article. B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 14:51, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Can you please ready my essay Wikipedia:All high schools can be notable? You just summed up the entire essay in one sentence. I will actually be replacing the in a nutshell part of the essay with your phrase. Thanks, Ryan Vesey Review me! 14:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

There is one point where you and I may disagree. I believe that for most, if not all, high schools, it is possible to create a well-rounded article, similar to what I (and others) have done at Salmon High School and North Gwinnett High School. Articles like this and this are completely inappropriate for Wikipedia and should not have their own articles until they can be improved. Ryan Vesey Review me! 15:03, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Cool you like my phrase (: No actually I agree that most if not all high schools would merit their own articles if someone were to take the time to source them. Where we might disagree would be that I would put the responsibility for sourcing on the person who writes the article to begin with, and I think it's often (not always) okay to delete text which has been tagged as unsourced for a long time (merely for lack of sourcing). B^e——C_{ritical__Talk} 16:23, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I am glad this conversation has come up, and I hope that it will lead to a greater discussion regarding the status of school articles. I for one would like to see something more concrete, one way or the other. I don't know if school articles are among the worst categories of articles with consistency, but I do know that a lot of them are in bad shape.

I can see a lot of viewpoints here, all of which carry some validity, and all of which have issues. I understand the need for a rpofessional looking encyclopedia (we've all invested to various degrees, and want something we can all be proud of). Not that WP should reflect old paper encyclopedias, but old paper encyclopedias had articles of varying length. An article that is only a few sentences long isn't the end of the world, provided that it is referenced properly (which is a whole other problem) and well written. As far as I am aware, while validity is a strong reason for deletion, the overall condition/length of the article is not a valid reason to delete.

Another issue I see is in the whole concept of notability. An easy solution is to fall back on WP:N; if there are enough reliable secondary sources, it stays, if not, it doesn't. That could lead to mass deletions, which in and of itself I don't have a huge problem with. The problem is that I think we all know that in many, many of those cases, there are going to be issues with a lot of articles being recreated without sources, a lot of fighting over same, and some of those articles being recreated with enough sourcing to stay, with those editors screaming "Told you so!" Of course, this is hypothetical, and I'm not sure this constitutes anything but a weak excuse to keep articles.

The other issue I see with WP:N is that (and I beg apologies for beign American-centric) here ... if this is the sole threshold, I fear for a situation where there is an explosion of articles on elementary schools that undoubtedly can be reliably supported by referencing (I would think that a vast majority of current American elementary and iddle schools, with a good hunt through newspapers, could find more than enough sources to meet the notability threshold). While there are some lower schools that should be included here, I think they are at bset a minority. The idea of "high schools are all notable (and, unsaid, other schools are not)", has helped create a lot of substandard articles, but has also, I suspect, been helpful in deleting and keeping out a lot more similarly bad elementary/middle school articles. I don't think that is a reason to establish "all high schools are notable" as official policy. However, I think this has to be looked at more critically.

As far as condition of articles, while I appluad WP for not creating too many hard and fast editing rules, which allows editors to work on the fly, I think given that school articles are buglights for people who are trying to pound their chests, I would like to see the Schools Project work on developing more concrete ideas about what does belong in a good encyclopedia article, and what does not. I think it becomes easier to cleanout articles and talk to zealous editors when you have some written guidelines to back you up. Removing the lyrics to school songs is easy ... it is specifically listed in the article guidelines as something not to include. When editors fight me on it, I direct them there, and that usually ends the fight. Trying to explain why an exhaustive list of every single activity in the school can't be listed is more difficult, because it isn't specifically verboten ... even WP:NOTDIRECTORY can usualyl be countered by WP:BOLD, which draws the whole thing out.

I don't think there yet exists an easy fix on this ... but I am convinced that the community can reach consensus on this given enough tim to talk it over. LonelyBeacon (talk) 02:44, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your informative comment on the subject. It certainly gives me some more ideas on the topic. I'm going to make some changes in the essay I'm writing to address the topic of elementary/middle schools. I think the activities issue is a hard one. It is important for an article on a school to address the idea of activities, just as an article on a university addresses student groups and sports; however, for some large schools the list can become much too long. One solution is enforcing the fact that it should be in prose form. Ryan Vesey Review me! 03:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Special Barnstar
	Thanks for creating Wikipedia. I don't have words for the same so please accept this Barnstar as a token of appreciation.  Abu Torsam  14:08, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

A beer for you!

Nice to finally know who is the head honcho of this massive site. Cheers and bottoms up Andy_Howard (talk) 22:35, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

That is an exquisite looking beer. You must enlarge the pic for full effect. For a fuller effect, if you are so lucky, enjoy one. My76Strat (talk) 22:50, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Opinion about an image (partially restored)

The following was posted by user Placelimit111 in revision Revision as of 23:15, 27 August 2011:

Hello Mr. Wales, i'd like an opinion by you about this image: /[/[:File:/Crotch3.jpg/]/] (I just added the slashes). I heard that Wikipedia is an educational project, and shouldn't host unnecessary pornography. Is that true? Placelimit111 (talk) 23:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)'

The result was a pornographic-looking image placed on the page. It was promptly removed, presumed to be vandalism. I can not comment on the motives of the poster, but the image is used on the following two pages:

• http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stydká_štěrbina
• http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schamhaarentfernung

The latter of which, is a thoroughly edited page. I am therefore restoring the question, in case anyone (or Jimbo) wants to actually answer the question -- which may or may not be a troll. The new contributor's other edits today do not appear to be vandals. I am doing do because the user was blocked by admin HJ Mitchell, so he does not have the chance to ask his question in a less disruptive manner. -- Wxidea (talk) 23:33, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

You left me hanging

So, I started an essay specifically because you helped reshape my beliefs on the notability of high schools. I haven't even received acknowledgement from you that you know the essay has been created. The essay has already become the subject of changes which completely reshape the point that the essay is getting across. Could you please drop by? Maybe an actual guideline could be created. The title is currently Wikipedia:All high schools can be notable; however, I am beginning to dislike the title and it seems like others are missing the point of the essay because of the title. Maybe at a minimum you could offer a new title? Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

You were not left hanging, you were left inspired. What you have done with that inspiration is remarkable. My76Strat (talk) 00:22, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, I have been a little wiki-depressed because the entire issue has been focused on changes to Wikipedia:Notability (high schools). I like to believe that my essay is a fairly accurate description of how things should be treated, but the only comments I have been getting are changes to the essay which, like I stated, alter the goals. Look at the history. I am having to fight to keep the essay on track. Ryan Vesey Review me! 00:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I'm sorry I haven't commented on your essay. I'll look at it in the next day or two if I can and comment. As far as I can tell, your views and mine are quite similar.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

It would be helpful to all involved if a) the two essays could be merged given their similarity so there can be no confusion, and b) if the whole topic could be wrapped up and the outcome communicated (e.g. posted on the schools wikiproject) so that we can move ahead with problem articles. --Simple Bob ^{a.k.a. The Spaminator} (Talk) 09:00, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

interpretation of policy

Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#WP:RFC question -

Hi Jimmy, this RFC has just been opened and as it develops over the next few days you may be interested to follow or comment. This is a repeat discussion, but in this case has arisen around the reporting of the claimed sexuality of new CEO of Apple Tim Cook - so this RFC is an attempt to assess the communities general position and interpretation of primarily WP:BLP in regards to .. - When should an encyclopedic project contain unconfirmed speculative sexual orientation reporting in relation to the living subjects of their articles? - Off2riorob (talk) 03:14, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Sexual preferences are not negative, but they are private. Unless the subject discloses, we should not speculate. I have removed the dubious content. Jehochman ^Talk 04:06, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

We should not speculate. But when there has been reporting should we omit it? Is there a special censorship on sexual orientation different from other personal issues?   Will Beback  talk  04:30, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Personal issues including religion, sexual orientation, health status, and similar matters should not be speculated upon. The subject will disclose what they want. The rest should be left out to respect their right to privacy and to avoid repeating rumor or innuendo. What sort of reliable reporting has there been? Rumor, bloggers repeating rumors and articles about rumor campaigns are not reliable information. Jehochman ^Talk 05:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

The issue here is that the subject was placed at the top of a list of the 50 most powerful gay or lesbian people. That fact isn't rumor or speculation, and has been widely reported. We can report that without identifying the subject as gay or lesbian. Just like we can report that the subject is listed among the top 50 cancer survivors, without otherwise identifying them in the Wikipedia voice as a cancer survivor.   Will Beback  talk  05:37, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

In a closely related issue, notice how much space is spent discussing speculation about the health of Steve Jobs#Health. Should we gut that section and limit it to Jobs' own self declarations?   Will Beback  talk  05:40, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

His health has direct relevance on the success of Apple, and has been widely reported on by reliable sources. We should not speculate at all, but if there is reporting based upon reliable public statements, that is relevant information. I haven't looked at that section so I don't know whether it is appropriate or not. Jehochman ^Talk 05:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, it's a poor analogy because Apple/Jobs have written and spoken about the health issue. That's not the case with Cook. AV3000 (talk) 05:51, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

So if a person has mentioned they have a health problem, and are the CEO of a large corporation, then it's OK to report speculation about the person's health, but if they are not a CEO then it would not be allowed? That doesn't seem consistent.   Will Beback  talk  06:12, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Nobody said that. I am going to stop responding now because you seem to want to twist other people's statements to suit your agenda, rather than engage in meaningful dialog. Jehochman ^Talk 06:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

We're trying to set policy where any language can be twisted, so it's necessary to look at any suggestion based on all possible impacts.   Will Beback  talk  06:32, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Note that in another active BLPN thread, some editors seem to even want to remove Anderson Cooper's own comments about his sexuality.   Will Beback  talk  06:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Eh? As his article states, Cooper has made no comment whatsoever about his sexuality; he has declined to discuss the matter. AV3000 (talk) 06:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

There's a lengthy quote from him discussing why he won't disclose his sexuality.   Will Beback  talk  06:46, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Precisely the point: it's a statement that he won't comment about his sexuality, not a comment about his sexuality. (The reader has learned absolutely nothing about his sexuality from him.) AV3000 (talk) 06:59, 28 August 2011 (UTC)