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September 3

translation from Moroccan Arabic

I'm trying to figure out the translation of this Moroccan song into English:

‎أنا ما لي فياش اش عليا مني نقنط من رزقي لاش و الخالق يرزقني
‎أنا عبد ربي له قدرة يهون بها كل أمر عسير
‎فان كنت عبدا ضعيف القوى فربي على كل شيء قدير
‎مني آش عليا وأنا عبد مملوك و الأشيا مقضية ما في التحقيق شكوك
‎ربي نظر فيا و أنا نظري متروك في الأرحام و الأحشا من نطفة صورني
‎يقول لما شاء كن فيكون و يبدىء سبحانه و يعيد
‎و يحكم في خلقه ما يشا و يفعل في ملكه ما يريد
‎في ظلمة الأرحام صورني من نطفة و بدا لي بالانعام نعمة من كل صنفة
‎و خلق لي ما و طعام و نعايم مختلفة و نزلت من غير قميص غطاني و سترني
‎مني آش عليا وأنا عبد مملوك و الأشيا مقضية ما في التحقيق شكوك
‎ربي نظر فيا و أنا نظري متروك في الأرحام و الأحشا من نطفة صورني
‎أنا ما لي فياش اش عليا مني نقنط من رزقي لاش و الخالق يرزقني

Thank you, Mo-Al (talk) 00:51, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I put it into Google Translate, just for fun, and this is what it came up with:

I me فياش Ashe Graduate me Nqnt of Rizki Lash and creator Irozkni

I Abdel Lord his ability trivialize each command Asir

Weak, you're a slave forces Frba on all things

Me Ashe graduate and I slave and Wallachia Mqdah doubts in the investigation

Lord consider my true and I left in the womb and the Alahha sperm Sorne

Say what 'Be willing and Abdye Almighty and restores

And governs the creation Yesha and do his property what he wants

In the darkness of the womb Sorne of sperm and it seemed to me Palanaam blessing of all classified

And create me what food and Naim different and I got out of the shirt غطاني Sturna

Me Ashe graduate and I slave and Wallachia Mqdah doubts in the investigation

Lord consider my true and I left in the womb and the Alahha sperm Sorne

I me فياش Ashe Graduate me Nqnt of Rizki Lash and creator Irozkni

That may or may not be of much help. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:52, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

...this is a good demonstration that Google translate does not work for Moroccan Arabic. Mo-Al (talk) 01:38, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yah. I was thinking that this is how it might turn out if e.e. cummings had tried to write a poem in Arabic. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:48, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spoken Moroccan colloquial Arabic is strongly divergent from Classical or literary standard Arabic in a number of respects, and can't be written adequately with the unmodified Classical Arabic alphabet... AnonMoos (talk) 03:13, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You could try asking on ar:ويكيبيديا:الميدان/لغويات. Lesgles (talk) 20:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Transcription

Is there a word for "transcribing" characters (for example in Chinese) to a computer from an image (as in the question above) so that they can be manipulated? 70.162.10.166 (talk) 03:48, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When a computer does it (and usually from a scanned image), it's called Optical character recognition. Lesgles (talk) 03:52, 3 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Copying.
Sleigh (talk) 11:38, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

September 4

The <a person's name>s of the world

Translating Daniel H. Wilson's Amped, I've found the sentence as follows:

It's the Joseph Vaughns of the world who have given regular people license to act like this.

Joseph Vaughn is an agitator who incites people to the act in this novel. What does 'the <a person's name>s of the world' mean? --Analphil (talk) 12:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It means that person and other people like him. In this case, it means basically "It's the agitators of the world". Angr (talk) 12:21, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And I presume this rhetorical device has a name. Which is it? No such user (talk) 17:35, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[In the present version, the heading of this section appears on my watchlist as The s of the world. I suggest replacing the less-than and greater-than signs with parentheses.

—Wavelength (talk) 15:42, 4 September 2012 (UTC)][reply]

I changed to an "<", which should fix most of the problems... AnonMoos (talk) 15:50, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of a Danish name

How is the name Tycho Brahe usually pronounced in English? I'd also like to know the Danish pronunciation. Thanks, Bielle (talk) 17:40, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

On Cosmos I believe Carl Sagan said /'taɪkoʊ 'bra:heɪ/, which is how I say it. I am sure the long e sound at the end is wrong in Danish. μηδείς (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The german article offers an ogg file of the pronunciation (which I assume is meant to be the Danish one): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tycho_Brahe It sounds like /'tyko bra:/ to me. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is clearly a Dane on that recording and not a German (even with a hint of a Copenhagen dialect). --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:41, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tycho Brahe#cite note-0.—Emil J. 18:08, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That note seems definitive, and not inconsistent with the German ogg. μηδείς (talk) 18:54, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking Danish, I'd say it's along the lines of /ˈtyko bʁɑːɘ̆/. A precise Danish pronunciation is really a pain in the ass to transcribe, even for someone who's IPA-fluent. While I may be able to say "rødgrød med fløde", I sure as hell would rather not try writing it out in the strictest of transcriptions. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 20:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Did you listen to the pronunciation given at the German article I linked to? Does it sound Danish to you, or German, or mixed? μηδείς (talk) 21:29, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like the correct Danish to me. The E on the end is just barely audible, but it is there, which is how it should be. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 22:04, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I usually say "TIE-co BRA-hay", as an American English speaker. --Jayron32 22:05, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Medeis, for the ogg connection. On it I hear something like TEE-ko BRAH-ah. I don't speak German or any Scandinavian language so my ears are not attuned to to the sounds. I usually pronounce the name (on the, perhaps, two occasions in my life when I have needed to say the name aloud) approximately as Jayron has shown. Has anyone else heard it pronounced in English by an anglophone? Bielle (talk) 22:59, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The speaker of File:Da-Tycho Brage.ogg is Malene Thyssen. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 23:11, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(I,e, she's Danish. μηδείς (talk) 23:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC))[reply]

The ogg sounds like it has a front rounded vowel, namely /y/, which is the sound of the vowel in "feed" made with the lips rounded to pronounce "food", rather than just a plain "ee". (The front rounded vowel exists in French and German, but not in English.) I hear a long /a:/, but not two separate syllables. It is somewhat hard and artificial to judge from such a short sample, since speech is based upon oppositions in extended discourse. I pretty much agree with Jayron on the pronunciation of Americans, but would say "Tike-oh" rather than Tie-co" ("My co" and "Mike oh" have different "long i" vowels in my dialect) for which see Canadian raising. μηδείς (talk) 23:14, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Medeis, we have the /y/ vowel in Liverpool English, as in /my:n/ 'moon' and other similar words. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:21, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am aware of that, noticed it in some Scottish speakers in various period pieces on PBS. I didn't want to cloud the issue because it is not phonemic in English so far as I am aware--but if Bielle is aware of the funny almost "eew"-ish sound they make in some northern British dialects mentioning it will help. μηδείς (talk) 17:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic to English translation of the word "Aghrāḍ"

Hello! How would you translate the word "aghrāḍ" (اغراض?), when talking about "traditional aghrāḍ in Arabic poetry"? Is it closer to "genres" or "themes"? or something else? Thank you for your help! Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 18:59, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic defines the singular as "target, aim, goal, objective, tendency" etc. AnonMoos (talk) 21:33, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much! Bryan P. C. C. (talk) 08:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How long would it take for someone to learn the french language with no high school degree?

How long would it take for someone to learn the french language with no high school degree? Neptunekh2 (talk) 19:37, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It completely depends! On the person's intelligence, especially verbal intelligence, memory function, motivation, hours prepared to study each day, if the person's native language is similar to french or very different, quality of education, and what level is aimed at. Having said that, I would say at least a month of intensive studying. But that's just a personal estimate. Lova Falk talk 19:47, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that anyone can learn French or any other language from scratch in anything remotely close to a month seems wildly optimistic to me for any reasonable definition of "learn". 86.179.6.238 (talk) 20:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's quite true—really, having a high school degree has little to nothing to do with learning languages. Many people learn languages on their own, for example, or outside of school (before completing it) and are quite successful. I began teaching myself Swedish when I was 15 or so and was reasonably fluent by 16, if memory serves. The time it takes to learn a language depends on a lot of things, of course, the difficulty of the language (specifically, how different it is from languages one already speaks) and natural aptitude for language. Thus, your mileage may vary, but it's far from impossible. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 19:56, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! Such a coincidence. I bought books and tapes and also taught myself Swedish, when I was 27. It took me about half a year to be able to have conversations with people and read the newspapers, but it took me a lot of studying afterwards to improve. However, I never studied full-time. Lova Falk talk 20:15, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most one-year-olds in France don't have a high school degree, and yet they manage to learn French very well within a few years. Angr (talk) 20:20, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I taught French to a 16-year-old girl in Japan, who was studying for the national French language test in Japan. She was not learning French at school, and so came to my language school to learn. She had very basic knowledge of the language when we started, but after the three month course, she managed to pass the Level 3 exam (from 5 (basic) down to 1 (fluent), with 3 meaning 'intermediate'). She was motivated. She wanted to learn, and in her particular case, her success was not down to how similar or not her language was to French. It's up to you. If you want to learn, you can. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:28, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where is it that high schools award degrees? Around here, you get degrees from universities. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:26, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As a matter of refering the OP to some references, Second-language acquisition is the place to start researching what I assume is their question. The actual answer depends on a lot of factors, including the age and aptitude of the learner. --Jayron32 22:04, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

French was the first foreign language I studied formally. In one year starting age 14 I mastered reading it. I mastered the full grammar save the passé simple by the end of the second year. I read a condensed version of Les Miserables, and a translated version of The Silmarilion in full by the end of my fourth year. I have found that motivation and regular practice with a speaker are all that is necessary. I have found it impossible to learn a language on my own other than to improve a language I already have a good grounding in. I.e., I find I cannot start learning one on my own, although I did teach myself the Greek alphabet and to read it before I ever took classes. μηδείς (talk) 23:22, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have been living in Hungary for a few months, and I have not had the time to do any formal study (with a teacher), but have found that I am picking the language up passively pretty quickly. I can understand a lot of conversations (generally from context), and can understand most of what people say to me. Unfortunately, I can't reply much yet (I keep using the wrong endings, and my word order emphasises the wrong things). By June/July next year, I fully intend to be able to participate in conversations between the natives, and I am sure it is possible. I am sure the OP would be able to learn French in a similar way. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I concur; if you live in the country where the language is spoken, and do get out and among people, you start to pick up the language pretty fast. I am staying in Bruges at the moment, and after 6 weeks am pickung up Flemish rather good (ok, it is near German and English, but anyway). I learned French in School, starting when I was about 10 years of age, and they offered about 24 hours a week pure French in the first year alone, so after 2 years I was pretty fluent, and managed to get my Baccalauréat after all, besides the German Abitur. Lectonar (talk) 07:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC) And the high school degree is not really of great importance, perhaps besides the fact that you probably have learnt how to acquire information. Lectonar (talk) 10:00, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe not quite the same, since I studied French in Canada for almost my whole life. But I only studied it for reading knowledge and I could never have had a conversation for more than a few seconds. After living in France for a year and a half, I can certainly speak it now, but hardly at anywhere near a native level. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:49, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Word for a person who does not understand speech?

If a person does not understand written language, we say that they are illiterate.

What is the word for a person who does not understand spoken language? I don't mean "deaf" or "hearing impaired"; the person can hear the words just fine, but does not comprehend the meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.37.239.254 (talk) 20:13, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a form of aphasia. There's probably a name for the specific type with the symptoms you describe, but I don't know what it is. Unless of course the person simply doesn't know the language being spoken. (I can hear Turkish words just fine but I don't comprehend their meaning; yet I'm not aphasic!) Angr (talk) 20:18, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here's one kind: "People with receptive aphasia can speak with normal grammar, syntax, rate, intonation, and stress, but they are unable to understand language in its written or spoken form." Angr (talk) 20:24, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

From a table in the main aphasia article: in addition to receptive aphasia mentioned above, transcortical sensory aphasia, global aphasia, and mixed transcortical aphasia all present with poor auditory comprehension. People with auditory verbal agnosia can't understand spoken language, but they can still understand written language. Angr (talk) 20:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it's not caused by a head injury or a stroke, it could be Specific language impairment. And Feral children are also unable to understand speech. Lesgles (talk) 20:52, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But with feral children, it's just a case of not knowing the language. Angr (talk) 21:26, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. Being raised completely without language may cause structural changes in the brain which makes language aquisition much more difficult (probably not impossible), so it isn't just a case of needing to learn a language. The brains of children change physically as a result of exposure to stimuli, or lack thereof, and as such, it isn't as simple as just teaching them later. Neurodevelopmental_disorder#Deprivation has an overview, and you can follow links from there to more details. --Jayron32 22:00, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. There are records of feral children stretching back a few centuries, and many of those taken into care did not learn to speak beyond a few simple words or sentences. This may be interesting to you. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:53, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right, because they were past their critical period. If they had been exposed to language early enough, they would have learned it, and then (unless they had one of the above-mentioned aphasias on top of being feral) they would have understood the language spoken to them. Angr (talk) 15:59, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Back to the OP, see Broca's area for some interesting information on some types of physical damage that can affect speach production. --Jayron32 22:02, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

- The OP asked about speech comprehension, not speech production. Comprehension is in the jurisdiction of Wernicke's area. Angr (talk) 17:40, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As Angr already mentioned (but to emphasize the point), auditory verbal agnosia is pretty much exactly the thing the OP described. Looie496 (talk) 22:06, 4 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

http://thesaurus.com/browse/aphonic Aphonic: voiceless, dumb, inarticulate, mute, silent, speechless, unarticulate. Note these relate to the symptom, not the cause. μηδείς (talk) 01:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Those mean they can't speak. That's not what was asked. The OP asked about people who can't understand speech. StuRat (talk) 01:54, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's what I must have meant when I said those terms describe the symptom, not the cause. I am glad you emphasized it, in case I was not clear. μηδείς (talk) 17:26, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am the OP, and I don't mean unable to understand speech due to brain damage, any more than an illiterate person's illiteracy is due to brain damage. I mean that the person never learned to parse speech, just as an illiterate (presumably) never learned to parse written language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.70.55 (talk) 04:18, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know whether aphasia is always due to brain damage, but since written language has to be learned, while spoken language comes naturally and automatically to all developmentally normal humans who are exposed to it, you can't really compare the two. Saying "what's the term for a person who's never learned to understand spoken language" and then ruling out the ones with neurological damage is a bit like saying "what's the term for a person who's never learned to walk" and then ruling out the ones with physical defects. Angr (talk) 10:58, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"but since written language has to be learned, while spoken language comes naturally and automatically to all developmentally normal humans who are exposed to it": are you sure this isn't a "no true Scotsman"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.41.68.187 (talk) 17:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I am. Angr (talk) 21:13, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there are the rare cases of people who've never been exposed to human speech, but this subsequently seems to cause a type of developmental problem which could be called brain damage. StuRat (talk) 11:24, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did explicitly say "who are exposed to it" in my statement above. Angr (talk) 11:45, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As Angr says, the evidence is pretty solid that we humans are very much hardwired for language acquisition and use, and anybody who lacks these either was never exposed to speech during the critical years, or has some sort of deficiency in brain function (organic or traumatic in origin). There is no verbal equivalent of the healthy illiterate. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:28, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

StuRat -- children people never exposed to language who are then exposed to it during the critical period often make up the deficit fairly quickly. Those whose first significant exposure to language falls outside the critical period can sometimes learn to functionally communicate, but their language will never sound normal... AnonMoos (talk) 15:23, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Children people" ? :-) StuRat (talk) 03:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC) [reply]

I decided to change "people" to "children" to make it clearer, then overlooked removing "people"... AnonMoos (talk) 06:23, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Interestingly, the surname Namath, Nimitz, Nemec, немец, etc., which is the typical Slavic word for German, literally means, "(he) does not speak (Slavic)". μηδείς (talk) 03:35, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

September 5

Dr King writings

Hello everyone. I have been reading Dr Martin Luther King (Jr)'s writings and in his essay "Nonviolence and Racial Justice," about a third of the way through, he writes: 'His religion revealed to him that God loves all his children and that the important thing about a man is "not his specificity but his fundamentum"', with the double quotes "" in the original text. I assume this is an allusion to something but googling has only turned up references to Dr King's essay, all also containing the double quotes around "not his specificity but his fundamentum". Any idea what this is in reference to? Thanks. 24.92.74.238 (talk) 02:46, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In I Have A Dream (1963), he said "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." (q:Martin Luther King, Jr.#I Have A Dream (1963), point 10)

—Wavelength (talk) 04:39, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I read "specificty" to mean "that which makes us distinct" and "fundementum" as "that which is at the core, base, or fundemental". That is, I would translate the phrase " the important thing about a man is "not his specificity but his fundamentum"' is "what is important about a person is not what sets him apart from other people, but what is common to all people". Not exactly what the I Have a Dream speech says, but of the same sort of sentiment. --Jayron32 04:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this sounds like the difference between Accident (philosophy) and Essence. μηδείς (talk) 17:23, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, you have misunderstood, I'm sorry I should have been more clear. I understand what the quote means; my question is, why are there quotes in the original text, i.e., what other work (if any) is it an allusion to? 24.92.74.238 (talk) 01:13, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He uses the same phrase in a 1966 speech at Wesleyan University. He may simply have been quoting his own phrase. http://www.iwu.edu/news/2006/fea_KingVisit_0206.html μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Pinyin

Why is the letter a sometimes used to write [ɛ]? (e.g. yuan [ɥɛ̌n]) Why don't they use e? --168.7.239.240 (talk) 05:22, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Because 'e' in Pinyin represents a completely different vowel [ɯ̯ʌ], or even [ə] in some cases. 'A' before a final 'n' is always pronounced [ɛ] when after a palatalised consonant or 'y'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:19, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I italicized the OP's "a" because I had to read the question three times to realize he didn't mean to use it as the indefinite article. μηδείς (talk) 20:18, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Timeout

How can I say this? "If [XXX] program times-out..." That sounds strange to me. Is there an official way to express 'timeout' as a verb in the third person singular? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:28, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would say "times out" (without the hyphen) is fine for this. --Viennese Waltz 07:30, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 07:35, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Same here, although, being American, I would insert "the" in front of the program name. StuRat (talk) 02:08, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Stu, I should have said "If [XXX Program] times out...." KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:09, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Einarssson?

The page http://serrano.nu/about/historia says that the surname of one of the restaurant's founders is named Einarssson. Is this name really spelled with three consecutive "s"'s? I know that triple consonants are possible in some languages, such as a word I once read in a German Donald Duck pocket book: Sauerstoffflasche ("oxygen bottle"). Such words are always compound words, where two of the consonants belong to one part and one belongs to another part. But it always strikes me as weird, because such a thing is impossible in Finnish, as Finnish words can't end or start with two consecutive consonants. (Two consecutive consonants in the middle of a word is OK, though.) JIP | Talk 19:22, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think it can happen in German where the ß is followed by an "s". That is, many forms of German have taken to changing ß as "ss" in modern times, so a word that had ßs in it can sometimes be become sss. --Jayron32 19:26, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just checked. Triple letters are allowed in German, see German_orthography_reform_of_1996#Sounds_and_letters. --Jayron32 19:30, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But where would the third S come from here? It's just "Einars" and "son" stuck together. (It's also Norwegian, not German.) Adam Bishop (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Modern Norwegian orthography does not allow triple consonants in compound words, so that 'bus stop' would be 'busstopp', although it is a compound of 'buss' and 'stopp', and so should have had three s's. The exception is when a hyphen is used (either due to line break or because the writer considers the compound word to be so rare (or simply too long) for people to be able to read it as one word), in which case it would be 'buss-stopp'. Older Norwegian orthography did not allow any word to end in a double consonant, thereby eliminating the whole problem of potential triple consonants in compound words. V85 (talk) 18:56, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The son of Einar would be Einarsson, the son of Einars would be Einarssson. DuncanHill (talk) 19:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Do Norwegian patronymics end in -sson or -son? Are there any Scandavian languages which use -sson as an ending? I can find names like Ólafsson where the root name doesn't end obviously in s but still has a -sson at the end. Einarsson notes that the root name is Einar- and not Einars-. If the root name had an -s at the end, like Einars- or Magnus-, perhaps some people would use a triple s in those cases. Google confirms that people genuinely have the name "Magnussson", per this search, and it isn't a typo. --Jayron32 19:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such njoiningame in Scandinavia as "Einars", though. "Einars" would be the genitive case of Einar, but it is not an individual name. --Saddhiyama (talk) 23:23, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Norwegian uses a genitive s, like English (but without the apostrophe). DuncanHill (talk) 19:52, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Right, sorry, I should have been clearer above. It's "Einar+genitive+son". Adam Bishop (talk) 20:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And such a construction is not a real name. --Saddhiyama (talk) 23:24, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What's the phonetic transcription expected here? If it were the son of Einars in English, we would expect people to say something like /"'eɪnarzɪzˌsʌn/. (I.e.,m Einnars's-son.) Are we going to hear three sibilants in the Nordic pronunciation? μηδείς (talk) 21:37, 5 September 2012 (UTCare used )

Most Icelandic speakers would geminate the S, rendering something like /ˈeinarsːɔːn/, though in fast speech, this might be less audible. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 23:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's a name. Names are sometimes "atraditionally misspelled." 11,000 google hits for "einarssson". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 22:06, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It seems most of those hits are individual instances of misspellings of the name "Einarsson", and not people actually named "Einarssson". --Saddhiyama (talk) 23:29, 5 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but that isn't the same as Magnussson cited above, which does show up in legitimate names, not just typos and misspellings. --Jayron32 02:29, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm, the infobox on the Einar article says that Einars is a related name. This suggests to me that the "sss" in question is possible. However, that was added pretty recently to the Einar article. Considering the variation in spelling various surnames in English - "Brown"/"Browne" or "White"/"Whyte" - I'm not unwilling consider that the same could happen in Icelandic. Astronaut (talk) 17:46, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As others have stated, "Einars" is not a Norwegian first name. Furthermore, if it were, the combination "Einars"+genitive s+"son" would still be spelled with two esses, not three, because the general rule is that if joined words result in a triple consonant, it is reduced to a double consonant, as in "topp"+"punkt"="toppunkt" (although you do get quite a few ghits for the three-consonant version). "Einars" is a first name in Latvian, though, as in Einars Repše. Whether genitive s and "son" are used in Latvian, I don't know. Another fact which makes the three consonant-version ungrammatical is that nouns that end in "s" are unchanged in the genitive, at least in formal writing. This can lead to ambiguities, as in "Hans bil" (i.e. the car that belongs to Hans, homophonous to "hans bil" his car). In spoken Norwegian you might say "Hans sin bil" to distinguish, a form which is increasingly used, whether the owner ends in "s" or not, and which is frowned upon by more conservative speakers. --NorwegianBlue^talk 19:35, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My "Hans" example above, made me think about the surname "Hanssen", or "Hansen" as it usually is spelled, which according to the first-name+"s"+"son" logic should be spelled "Hansssen". Googling for the triple-s version restricted to site:.no gets quite a few ghits, but if we turn to official statistics:

There are 3,2,1 or 0 persons in Norway with the surname "Hansssen",
There are 5944 persons in Norway with the surname "Hanssen",
There are 54823 persons in Norway with the surname "Hansen".

The 3,2,1 or 0 thing is a privacy concern, I think. Any search with 3 or fewer hits is returned this way. And in case anyone should wonder: There are 3,2,1 or 0 persons in Norway with the surname "Einarssson". --NorwegianBlue^talk 21:04, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why do they include a "or 0" option? By that logic, I could search for "Magniafazzula" and get "There are 3, 2, 1 or 0 persons in Norway with the surname "Magniafazzula"" as a result. JIP | Talk 21:10, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And cor blimey, it does return that. Even if instead of "Magniafazzula", I enter something just by banging my keyboard at random. I would figure the system would need to make a distinction between names at most 3 people in Norway have and names no one in Norway could possibly ever have. JIP | Talk 21:13, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And there should also be world peace... Sadly, things don't always work out the way we want. :-) V85 (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

See Latvian declension. If I understand right, it's usual in Latvian (and Lithuanian?) to fit foreign names into one of the standard declensions, and all masculines apparently have –s in the nominative case (what would appear in lists). So I'd expect Einar to be Latvized as Einars (nominative), Einara (genitive), and so on; the translation of "Einar's son" would have Einara, not Einars– with some further suffix. —Tamfang (talk) 02:05, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I did a google search for 'Einarssson' and most of the hits I got referred to people from Iceland, it seems that 'Einarssson' with three s's is an Icelandic thing. V85 (talk) 18:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If so, we're talking about deliberate misspellings, or people choosing a 'cute', though unofficial spelling of their surname. Google hits weren't helpful, nor were phone directory entries, when I searched for Norwegian Einar(triple-s)ons. There was no way to prevent the available online Norwegian phone directories from correcting the triple-s version to names that actually existed.

There is an Icelandic webpage that corresponds to the Norwegian one I linked to: Statistics Iceland, names. We there have to deal with the particular Icelandic custom that there really isn't such a thing as a surname. Your surname only reflects your father's first name, as in Finnbogadóttir, Eiriksson. You will find that "Einar" is a quite common first name, and you will find no-one that has "Einars" as his first name. Therefore, there will be no grammatical basis for forming a triple-s version of the surname. You can also check our List of Icelanders. There are exactly zero persons on that list with a triple-s "ssson" surname. --NorwegianBlue^talk 21:39, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

September 6

Help with Possible Arabic, Persian, or Dari speaking user

Hello! I thought I would come here since I don't know where else to get a speaker of the language. User:Tatobay.weekly just created an account and has been editing in only what I think is Arabic (I'm not an Arabic speaker so I could be wrong). I wanted to leave them a friendly notice about this being an English Wikipedia but I am not sure if they would understand if I replied in English. So I was wondering if a speaker of Arabic (or whatever language it is) could communicate with them? Thanks, LlamaDude78 (talk) 17:27, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In case anyone else is thinking of trying it, Google Translate identifies the language as Persian, although provides a less-than-useless translation. The username is the title of an Afghan newspaper, hence I suspect the language is actually Dari Persian - different enough to make it unintelligible to GTranslate. I don't speak Arabic, Persian or Dari, so I'm afraid this is the most help I can offer. If it's any consolation, the way they're going they will probably be blocked for spam/advertising before this gets translated - Cucumber Mike (talk) 17:44, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. That is why I left a disclaimer as I have no clue. Unfortunately, my knowledge only spans to Latin and East Asian languages when it comes to other languages... LlamaDude78 (talk) 17:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's definitely not Arabic, and since he's talking about an Afghanistan newspaper I would assume, like Cucumber Mike, that it's actually Dari, or Pashto. Tatobay.com seems to be available in Pashto, but since that's not the default I guess it's probably Dari. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:26, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You might also try the local embassy, where you can find users who speak different languages. According to our article on the language, the Iranian and Afghan standards of Persian are mutually intelligible for the most part, so someone from there or from this category of users who have identified themselves as speaking Persian (through these userboxes) can probably help (in fact, there is no separate category for speakers of the Afghan standard). dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 19:47, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One of Jimmy Wales' friends speaks Tajik and Persian. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 21:07, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Omidinist is the reference desk regular who is a native Persian speaker (though he hasn't been around for a few weeks)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:27, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, a Persian speaker has informed me that is not Persian and is not Urdu and says it is possibily Pashto or Balochi. Man, this has become more complicated than I thought. LlamaDude78 (talk) 11:17, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

en:Pashto language classifies Pashto as a Semitic (Canaanite) language, whereas de:Paschtunische Sprache classifies it as Indoeuropean. What went wrong? --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 12:09, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved: Vandalism in en:Pashto language reverted. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 12:12, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No starch

When you say that something, that is no food, has 'no starch', what do you mean? Is that like saying 'no fat'? OsmanRF34 (talk) 22:17, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The only literal non-food context that immediately comes to mind is laundry. If you send your shirts off to be laundered, they might use laundry starch unless you specify otherwise. Or anyway, they might have, if you did it in 1940; I don't know who uses it anymore. --Trovatore (talk) 22:21, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"No starch" may be metaphorically used as shorthand for saying that something lacks rigidity and structure, unlike a starched garment (see ruff (clothing)). Depending on the context and the speaker's temperament, this may be a criticism or a compliment. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:42, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Starch" is sometimes used metaphorically to indicate formality or precision (also related phrases like "starched shirt"/"starched collar"). I unfortunately can't find a reference, but I presume that it comes from the traditional use of starched clothing in formal situations, as starched clothing can form and maintain a sharper crease when ironed than unstarched clothing. -- 205.175.124.30 (talk) 02:03, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Knock the starch out of someone" also has specific meaning. This web site happens to have it in its title. "Starch" appears as a synonym for nerve. Bus stop (talk) 02:14, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nooki experiment viral video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Jlv8F9cerA, titled "An experiment", is a fairly well-known viral video on YouTube which was uploaded back in 2008 and which already has over 235 million views, making it currently the 27th most-viewed video [1] of all time on YouTube. It features a Japanese woman putting something inside a bottle of liquid and then saying "nooki" (or perhaps "nuki"?) a lot as the liquid fizzes. I'm so baffled (and I'm certainly not the only one, as countless comments posted on the video indicate equal bafflement from thousands of other viewers) by what's happening in the video. So, my questions on the video:

Could someone who knows Japanese provide a transcription, both in Japanese and in romaji, of exactly what the woman is saying before she starts saying "nooki" a lot... (the video is quite short, only 25 seconds total, and she only speaks for about 10 seconds before starting in on saying "nooki")
...and then translate that transcription into English?
What does "nooki" even mean? I assume she's not talking about the English slang meaning of "nookie". (Or maybe she is, analogizing the fizzing; I don't know.)
What exactly is the liquid in the video?
What exactly is she putting into the liquid in the video?

—SeekingAnswers (reply) 22:33, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

'Nuki' comes from the verb 'nuku', meaning 'to take out' or 'to let out'. As you can see, the liquid is cola, and she has dropped some sort of mint into it, causing it to fizz up violently, and therefore 'let itself out' from the bottle. Also, your analogy is correct, unfortunately. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 05:05, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to say, it looks like she's placed Mentos into a bottle of Diet Coke, or some other similar combination involving porous sweets and carbonated drinks. As for the ヌキヌキ analogy, well, that's just disturbing. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 01:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but still waiting on a transcription and translation... Anyone? —SeekingAnswers (reply) 04:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

She doesn't say "noki". She says "nyoki nyoki", にょきにょき/ニョキニョキ. It's an onomatopoeia. See these ja-to-en dictionary pages for the meaning. [2] and [3]. She says the word "tsukushi/土筆/a spore-headed shoot of field horsetail" at the beginning of the video. You can see and hear the word ニョキニョキ in 294tv's another video here. Official page is here. The comments in ja are "weird", "stupid", "disgusting", etc. Oda Mari (talk) 09:54, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

September 7

Trying to write correct english

What's wrong with this sentence ? I can't say "two shots from/of the bow" ? Then how to best formulate the sentence ?

"It had been the proudest day of his short life, having killed the elk with two shots of/from the bow and then flaying the animal himself, with just a little guidance from his father."

109.247.62.59 (talk) 08:20, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For one thing, it's redundant. "Shots of the bow", "shots from his bow" or simply "bow shots" are okay, but "shots from the bow" is a bit odd (since there's more than one bow in the world). Clarityfiend (talk) 08:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ye, there is more than just one bow in the world... it's a good point. "his bow" rather than "the bow" makes a big difference, I can see that. "shots from his bow" it is. tnx 109.247.62.59 (talk) 09:07, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with "from the bow", but would slightly prefer "from his bow". More importantly, though, the sentence doesn't seem to be quite certain what its subject is. Ending the first clause with a comma and heading straight into the next one makes it sound like the sentence's "it" (in this case, "the proudest day..." is what "... killed the elk", rather than the boy himself. If I came across a sentence like this in my editing work, I would rephrase it to something like

"It had been the proudest day of his short life--he had killed the elk with two shots from his bow and then flayed the animal himself, with just a little guidance from his father."

But that's just me. Whatever you do, make sure to fix that word I bolded. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 09:16, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Even better that "from his/the bow" would be "...with just two arrows". Also I would say flaying, whilst completely the correct word for the process, would not be recognised by the average reader. Skinning is much more simple and descriptive. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 09:36, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think "short life" is incorrect there, because no matter how young he is, from his perspective his life has not been "short". How about:

"It was the proudest day of his life. At 5 years of age he killed an elk with two bow shots. And with just a little guidance from his father he disemboweled it in preparation for providing nutritional sustenance for his family." Bus stop (talk) 11:18, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, another minor question : How to use the word 'subservient' ? Does one say "subservient towards their husbands" or "subservient to their husbands" ? tnx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.247.62.59 (talk) 10:00, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think either use might be correct, but a more extensive context might point to one use as preferable. But I do think that in general the second use—"subservient to their husbands"—is more concise and direct, tending to make it preferable. Bus stop (talk) 11:25, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be more likely to say toward (not towards, which to me implies motion--although wiktionary says no) than to. μηδείς (talk) 16:46, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting—I find the same distinction between "toward" and "towards". The OED says the two are equivalent, at least in all contemporary senses of the two words. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 01:27, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Towards" has a much more concrete spatial meaning to me. I could equally well say "he looked" or "he threw it" toward or towards me. But to say "he was disobedient towards me" sounds not like he was disobeying me, so much as he was being disobedient in my direction. μηδείς (talk) 03:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would take that to mean "near me". I would say "disobedient to me". StuRat (talk) 03:22, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"It had been the proudest day of his short life, having killed an elk with two shots from the bow and flayed the animal himself, with just a little guidance from his father." is an OK piece of prose to me (British English). Bazza (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That quoted statement contains a dangling modifier.

—Wavelength (talk) 16:41, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I was misled by the common term "Shot across the bow". Perhaps and entirely different construction or more context would help if it would eliminate the word "bow" entirely from this particular sentence. Mingmingla (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you actually reading this as "shots from the /bæʊ/", Mingmingla? μηδείς (talk) 03:20, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Old art document history

What is it called when old art has a document history going back hundreds of years?--Christie the puppy lover (talk) 11:55, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Provenance. Bus stop (talk) 11:57, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

30000 traps

I heard "30000 traps!"in a cigarette commercial. What's the meaning of that? 193.224.66.230 (talk) 13:24, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What's a "cigarette commercial"? ;-) Bazza (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A "cigarette commercial" is a thing that presumably still can be seen in Hungary, where the OP geolocates. Looie496 (talk) 16:55, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'd guess that means little chambers in the filter (think bubble-shaped holes in a sponge). μηδείς (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You heard this in 1958? "Over 30,000 traps - the most effective filtering material in a cigarette today. No other popular filter cigarette delivers less nicotine and tar". --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You can still occasionally see commercials in movies and old TV shows, in the show itself, or as part of the broadcast. μηδείς (talk) 17:31, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And there's plenty on YouTube. Here's one I found recently when looking for performances by Frank Ifield. (Please don't ask why.) HiLo48 (talk) 22:24, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. I think I may have figured it out. It sounds like a very awkward way to discuss the Porosity of the cigarette filter. What it is telling you is that there are 30,000 places in the filter to trap stuff. It's also meaningless, in the sense that filtering ability isn't discussed in such manner. So it is perfect marketing: it sounds like something important and scientific, but it's just bullshit. --Jayron32 22:13, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. To discuss how much tar and nicotine is removed, do it directly, by listing the amount of tar or nicotine removed, not how many "traps" a cigarette has. However, even this is irrelevant, since people will then just smoke more to get the amount of tar and nicotine they are accustomed to. StuRat (talk) 22:38, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Are you seeking truth in tobacco advertising? LOL. HiLo48 (talk) 22:44, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you could remove the qualifier "tobacco" from that, and it would be an equally rediculous proposition. --Jayron32 02:32, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I once had a teacher claim that advertising provides consumers with information. Just change that to "misinformation", and she was entirely correct. StuRat (talk) 03:16, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is also the problem that you don't want to filter out nicotine. That's why you're smoking it in the first place. If you want less nicotine, smoke fewer cigarettes. The filter is supposed to let you get the nicotine without the other harmful stuff (like tar). --Tango (talk) 22:40, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Additional Chinese requests: Warehouse building

Hi, again! I have some additional questions about Chinese characters. I would like to know what the characters in yellow on the side of a building are. I have three views of the characters:

I put the camera through the fence to capture the characters obscured from the far end view. Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 19:22, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Characters are these. 中西饅頭, 紙品餐盆, 南北雜貨, 糖米油, 餐具設備, ?類用品. As for the fourth character of the second one, 盆, I haven't found the unicode of that traditional character. I was too busy to check the meaning of the words, but the second one might be "paper dishes/cups" and the fourth one "rice oil". Oda Mari (talk) 17:45, 8 September 2012 (UTC)`[reply]

中西饅頭 is Chinese-Western mantou, 紙品餐盆 might be paper dishes, 南北雜貨 is [4]?, 糖米油 is rice bran oil, and 餐具設備 might be kitchen equipment. As for the meaning, please ask some native zh speaking editor. Oda Mari (talk) 10:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

September 8

does my spelling show my aging?

I never saw the forms ageing and eyeing in (professional) print before about twenty years ago. (Recently I saw another surprising –eing word but don't remember what it was.)

In my day, final silent e was dropped before ing except in dyeing (to distinguish dye from die) and singeing (to distinguish singe from sing). I also feel obliged to mention seeing, fleeing, agreeing because some clown will if I don't.

Are They teaching a different standard now? If so, what the heck is the new rule? Why ageing and not *pageing or indeed *takeing? —Tamfang (talk) 06:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And why not encourageing? Is it garaging or garageing? Dressaging or dressageing? Foraging or forageing? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 06:17, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's regional, not generational. "Ageing" seems to be the more common spelling outside of the US and Canada. It is specifically addressed in our spelling guidelines here: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Spelling. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 07:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c)The "new rule" will depend on which style guide a particular publisher is using. Style guides do change over the years. Also there are significant American and British English spelling differences, and US publishers prefer "aging" so maybe you're looking at books published in the UK where the preferred spelling is "ageing".--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:07, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Dickens in The Haunted Man and the Ghost's Bargain has "She's fat, she 's ageing, she won't bear comparison with most other women.” (p.154) which was written in 1848. On the website of the English Spelling Society, the change from "ageing" to "aging" in the US is blamed on the The Chicago Tribune in an article called Spelling the Chicago Tribune Way, 1934-1975, Part I., which says; "Now various errant simplifications began to creep into Tribune usage without sufficient monitoring. By 1950, aging, cantaloup, cigaret, enrolment, eying, glycerin, hiccup, pean, numskull and sodder (for solder) were in use, as well as a host of -UE simplifications that had not appeard on previous lists although they stemmed analogously from announced changes." So yes, it does show that you learned to spell after 1950 and on the left hand side of the Atlantic. Alansplodge (talk) 17:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"branched out into"

this reads oddly to me. Is it? So does "outside of". Kittybrewster ☎ 16:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Branched out into" sounds fine to me, as in "The roots of the transplanted flower branched out into the new pot". So, the roots are going out of the plant and into the pot.

"Outside of" sounds OK, too, although the "of" could be omitted for brevity: "Is the spot inside of or outside of the window ?" could just as well be "Is the spot inside or outside the window ?". StuRat (talk) 17:04, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

But in "the spot is on the outside of the window", the "of" cannot be omitted. Looie496 (talk) 17:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"The spot is outside the window" works, although it doesn't technically say it is on the window, but this should be understood in context. StuRat (talk) 18:57, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Branched out into" isn't discordant to my tender sensibilities, nor to those of several dictionaries.[5][6]. When you expand out of one region, you go into another. Clarityfiend (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Consider the similarly constructed "While having his breakfast in the nursery, little Bobby suddenly ran out into the garden." Clarityfiend (talk) 20:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A little technical assistance for an author ?

When writing a novel, what's considered the correct way, or how does an author usually handle the use of two (or more) languages briefly being spoken in the same book?

Forexample: The book is written in english and the main character also speaks english, but then he/she meets another character from Norway, and the two initiate a dialogue. The main character who is english happens to speak and understand Norwegian, so they speak to each other in Norwegian. But obviously the reader will likely not understand Norwegian, so each time something is written in Norwegian the author must follow up by repeating the same words/sentences in English so that the reader can understand it.

So do I write something like this:

'God dag,' (Well met) he said, before shaking her hand.

or

'God dag,' Well met, he said, before shaking her hand.

or

'God dag,' he said, before shaking her hand. Well met.

Obviously the last alternative there seem very awkward to me, but I'm not sure how to handle this. Any feedback will be appreciated. It would be nice however if you made clear whether you're simply expressing you personal opinion or if you're actually quite certain that your method is a correct one.

109.247.62.59 (talk) 18:12, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Hello", said Bob, switching to Norwegian. "Have we met before?" I.e. tell the reader what happens, don't show it. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would usually agree with you, but sometimes reason can be found for doing it the way I was originally thinking. But I'm still thankful for your reply — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.247.62.59 (talk) 18:28, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Add "The following conversation takes place in Norwegian, but is presented in English for the convenience of the reader:". This will give it a bit of a documentary feel, but that might make it seem more real. The only time I would present foreign language writing is if it can't be reproduced in the native language, such as poetry that won't rhyme or words with no translation. In those cases you should include the original, along with whatever translation you can manage. StuRat (talk) 18:33, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hehe, it's not a documentary ;) Anyway, the things being said is best said in its real language, and sometimes an author just have to decide how to go about it, and I kind of have. I'm just not sure exactly how best to repeat/translate the things being said. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.247.62.59 (talk) 18:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Urk. If it were me, I would simply use, ""God dag", he said, and shook her hand". Most English readers will get the gist. If you don't think they will, don't use the Swedish. And if I felt I must translate, I would use "Good day" rather than "Well met". Looie496 (talk) 18:50, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Of the formats you listed, I like the first the best, although the translation of "God dag" is "Good day", not "Well met" (which sounds like something out of Shakespeare to me in the US: "Hail, and well met !"). StuRat (talk) 18:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure where you got the swedish from, Looie. "god dag" is rightly enough swedish, but also Norwegian. They're very similar languages. Almost the same. But guys, the "god dag" was in fact just an example since some of you didn't understand that :D The things being said is not as simple as two words, and for the sake of power and meaning behind what's being said, it needs to be spoken in its true language. But i thank you all for replies. 109.247.62.59 (talk) 19:09, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I happen to have a copy of Jo Nesbø's The Redeemer to hand, translated to English by Don Bartlett. The translation is excellent, so I trust this as a good example of best practice.

The characters are, and speak, Norwegian. Dialogue is all written in English. Place names and personal names are left in Norwegian, except when translation offers some extra information. So a drug rehabilitation centre's name is translated as Lighthouse - the name is used in a pun later in the book. Some characters are multilingual, and whole sentences in other languages are translated into English - "'Yes, he's in,' she said in mellifluous French." "'How are you?' the woman said in her clipped English" For the rest of the conversation no mention is made of the language - it's implied that it continues in the foreign tongue.

If translation is required inline, it's dealt with like this: "It was only when he saw 'Vestbredden' - West Bank - scrawled on the wall of a squat that he realised he had walked too far."

Based on these examples, I would recommend rendering your sentence as "'Good day', he said in Norwegian, before shaking her hand." - Cucumber Mike (talk) 19:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The OP has stated that it's important he use the actual Norwegian words and then provide an English translation. We're here to help him do that, not advise him to do something different.

OP, this is a very unusual style and one that wouldn't be referencable, but if it were me, I think I'd do the following:

"God dag" [Good day], he said, before shaking her hand. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 20:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are several passages in novels by Cormac McCarthy in which characters speak untranslated Spanish. McCarthy makes no attempt to explain what is being said to the reader, it's just part of the experience of reading the novel. I would do the same thing - put it in Norwegian, and don't provide a translation. If the reader cares enough to find out what is being said, they will type the passage into Google Translate. It will likely be only an approximate translation, of course, but that's OK. It's good to make things difficult for the reader, make them do some work, make the book a little bit more mysterious and less transparent. If you don't like the sound of that, I would just put the Norwegian in the main text and put a translation in a footnote at the bottom of the page. --Viennese Waltz 21:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You have to be a really good authot to get away with "if my readers care enough they can use google translate". Most authors need to work hard to keep their readers interested. Lova Falk talk 10:23, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As for the "well met" thing, it translates to "Vel møtt", which in contemporary Norwegian usually is used as a collective welcome greeting, for example by the host of a conference, when first addressing the attendees. Often followed by "til" (to) and then whatever the meeting is about. The majority of the first pages of Google hits I got now, was school web pages, welcoming their students to the the new school year, e.g. "Vel møtt til et nytt og spennende skoleår!" -NorwegianBlue^talk 22:20, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you can get a copy of Barbara Kingsolver's The Lacuna, check the first chapter to see how she solves this problem. There's a lot of spoken spanish, but she translates this into english in a very natural way. However, as far as I recall, there were no long ongoing conversations. Lova Falk talk 10:20, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Need vowels for Hebrew word

Hello -

I'm very new to Hebrew, in a lot of ways, and I need a question answered as quickly as possible here. Could someone give me the word כי with the vowels? As in: תן לי כי (give me that)?

Thank you. --Brasswatchman (talk) 22:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You can always look up the dots in wiktionary: [7] [8] [9].... but I'm not sure that sentence makes sense. What you write means give me because ... try "ten li et ze"... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 23:11, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Brasswatchman -- כי is generally a conjunction in Hebrew, not a demonstrative. AnonMoos (talk) 03:50, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

September 9

Famous English Quotations in Other Languages

Are famous quotations in English, as "famous" in other languages?

For example, Neil Armstrong saying "One small set for (a) man, etc....", surely that would have been translated more or less instantaneously into the languages of the many other countries watching the live broadcast.

Did the translator use the correct phrasing, could there have been a better way to say it? Important speeches are normally reviewed and re-written many times in order to sound as good as possible, however, a translator would have no such luxury.

Also, the whole point of a quotation, is the actual words uttered by the famous person.....not by the translator

If we look at it the other way around, when Diego Maradona famously scored using his hand, he called it "la mano de Dios", which is a fairly straightforward translation into English - "the Hand of God"

However, can we consider words which do not have a direct translation e.g. Nixon saying "I am not a crook". "Crook" could be described as a slang phrase in English, which perhaps does not have an exact equivalent in other languages

Also, for languages which use different characters (e.g. Chinese), surely there are many ways that English phrases could be written — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaseywasey (talk • contribs) 11:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC) Jaseywasey (talk) 11:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To what base uses...

The following is one of the passages in The Human Bondage by W. S. Maugham. Please teach me the meaning of “To what base uses…” Thank you in advance. -- Nobuhiko

"I see you're a journalist," said Philip. "What papers d'you write for?" "I write for all the papers. You cannot open a paper without seeing some of my writing." There was one by the side of the bed and reaching for it he pointed out an advertisement. In large letters was the name of a firm well-known to Philip, Lynn and Sedley, Regent Street, London; and below, in type smaller but still of some magnitude, was the dogmatic statement: Procrastinationis the Thief of Time. Then a question, startling because of its reasonableness: Why not order today? There was a repetition, in large letters, like the hammering of conscience on a murderer's heart: Why not? Then, boldly: Thousands of pairs of gloves from the leading markets of the world at astounding prices. Thousands of pairs of stockings from the most reliable manufacturers of the universe at sensational reductions. Finally the question recurred, but flung now like a challenging gauntlet in the lists: Why not order today? "I'm the press representative of Lynn and Sedley." He gave a little wave of his beautiful hand. "To what base uses..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.5.231.89 (talk) 11:35, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language