Talk:Muhammad

Edit request for FAQ Template

The section Q8/A8 of FAQ Template on this page contains links to some indecent images. Given Wikipedia's NPOV, these links may not be problematic per se, but their accommodation into the talk-page dedicated to Islamic Prophet may seem offending to some, and may come as a cultural shock to other pious ones who may be interested to have a look through the FAQs. That the visitation of this page should lead someone to otherwise considered pornographic pages is contradictory in that Islamic tradition sufficiently disapproves of such orientations. Shouldn't, or at least can't, Wikipedia reconsider this to become more agreeable in this heterogeneous world? --AsceticRosé 13:30, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree 200% Agreed, Only this article's FAQ were there to accommodate the links to pornographic images? A new Wikipedia Project page or an existing page can be used to accommodate these links, and they should be removed from FAQs of this article, this gives an impression that "Muslims are those who put pornographic images in articles.", Faizan(talk) 13:42, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I have removed it, honestly I never noticed that hidden sub-section at all until just now. While I have always been one of the more ardent advocates of anti-censorship on this article, that sub-section was ridiculous. We can't say "no you cannot censor images here, and by the way here's a whole list of them you probably won't like either." That's like one big fuck-you to the readers. Tarc (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Tarc! Cheers! Faizan(talk) 15:40, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

No. This is a clear case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. That hidden section has existed in the FAQ for a long time, and for a long time before that it was not hidden at all. The purpose of that part of the FAQ is not merely to assert that Wikipedia is not censored, but also to demonstrate that Wikipedia is not censored, and that serves a useful purpose to any reader.

This isn't a gallery. It's just a list of examples of non-censored content. If anyone is offended by what they see when they click on a link, well, there is no requirement for anyone to click on links, the context is sufficiently clear that you do so at your own risk.

I mean, we even made the section collapsible and hidden by default to ensure that no one would inadvertently view one of those links. Hiding it was a good solution to the problem AsceticRose describes. Problem was solved. Removing the section is a solution to a non-problem, and dilutes the informative utility of the FAQ.

We don't make editorial decisions based on the possibility of offending some groups, and hiding the section was performed as a nod of acknowledgment to such groups. On that basis I am restoring the section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amatulic (talk • contribs)

There is no quality of "i don't like it" to my edit, that is quite frankly a very ill-informed comment to make. I was nearly banned from this topic area last year because I was too forceful and blunt in my opposition to censorship of this article. I am fully 100% wanting to retain images of Muhammad here. But an FAQ for an article such as this was created to address perennial editing requests and suggestions rather than answer them over and over again individually. There is no justifiable purpose for a Muhammad FAQ to give the reader a list of links to nudity, racism, and gore to show them what could be censored in this project but is not. This is WP:POINT-making at its finest, and that is the reason why it was removed; it is completely irrelevant to the purpose of a FAQ, I didn't remove it because of offense. . And I do not really care how long it has been in; would have removed it years ago if I knew it existed. Tarc (talk) 16:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

It is not clear who this "I" is who restored the section as there is no user name. I agree with Tarc that this section is seriously unnecessary. And it is not any article page that the policies will be applied hard and fast. And policies are not all. We should have common sense. Even without having this, the FAQ will "serves a useful purpose to any reader". More importantly, when three out of four users are of the opinion to delete this, isn't it a consensus? --AsceticRosé 17:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

(Correction; Sorry Amatulic, my browser didn't at first load your unsigned name, and I couldn't recognize you). Amatulic one thing, as you said “the purpose of that part of the FAQ is not merely to assert that Wikipedia is not censored, but also to demonstrate that Wikipedia is not censored”, now shouldn't we place that part of this FAQ on every articles talk page (as the issue of censorship applies to all articles equally) to make the world know that Wikipedia is nor censored? AsceticRosé 17:26, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with tarc. I've never noticed that before. It's bafflingly juvenile. It's nothing to do with WP:IDONTLIKEIT - the pics don't bother me. But to include them to supposedly illustate what "not censored" means, well it's just silly, simple as that. It looks like a teenagers' prank. DeCausa (talk) 19:04, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

 Done by User Tarc

Clearly, the community has agreed that such links should not be included any more, either on FAQ, or elsewhere.--AsceticRosé 03:34, 11 April 2013 (UTC)

It was a hold over from a bygone error where a well-intentioned matter was given as proof that Wikipedia is uncensored and that this was not just for this article. I do not think a specific argument for that has ever been made and in hindsight it probably should not have been added in the first place. I recall a user making a gallery of such images on a userpage to be disruptive and make others upset. As for putting a type of faq on talk pages with controversial material, because editors should be aware of the policy if they edit in that region of Wiki, but readers will not be expected to see or find the pages that easily. This page is rather special and it is not alone in controversy. A banner ad for controversy is the most common application on talk pages. You will find them at most sexuality related pages. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 19:55, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 April 2013

Please remove the pictures in which Muhammad(SM) is being shown. For those pictures this page is getting criticized. 117.18.231.47 (talk) 08:43, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

No, and the discussion is in the wrong place. Please see Talk:Muhammad/images.Jeppiz (talk) 09:52, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I can understand archiving the image discussions to a separate place, but we should keep the discussions on the main talk page for a while after being posted. People who don't understand talk pages very will will wonder why their request has suddenly disappeared. —Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 18:16, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Muhammad as Last Prophet: about WP:RS and WP:OR

One of Wikipedia"s fundamental policies is to cite WP:RS in support of important statements. So far, the article Muhammad has used, in its lead, statements like "most Muslims believe Muhammad as last Prophet" or "Muhammad is almost universally considered by Muslims as the last prophet". But the statement is without any RS citation in its support. Isn't it a gross violation of wiki policy? Additionally, in absence of any reliable citation to support the statement, there is a clear chance to claim it as original research which is again a violation of wiki policy. On the other hand, all the sources clearly say Muhammad (SW) as the last Prophet. Below has been provided a short list. Now, shouldn't we change the existing statement?

• Campo, Encyclopedia of Islam
• S. A. Nigosian
• Islam for Dummies
• Britannica
  

--AsceticRosé 12:39, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

• Support I agree As per WP: RS statements in the lead are not acceptable and as per the sources given above they should be amended, according to the above clear sources it is universally believed that Muhammad is the last prophet and it should be amended as such, Wiki policies should not be breached. Faizan -Let's talk! 12:50, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Er, do you not see that note marked "n 1" at the end of the passage, that points to this source ? Tarc (talk) 13:10, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Dear Tarc, I want to ask you one simple question: is a single, personalized web page more acceptable against all the scholarly works from all over the world? And if it is, then what is the meaning of WP:RS to you?--AsceticRosé 13:44, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed with Rose, The references provided above are more reliable, and the ought to be trusted. Faizan -Let's talk! 13:46, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

You're making this a lot more complex than it should be. There is a statement in the note: " Not all Muslims believe Muhammad was the last prophet. For example, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community considers Mirza Ghulam Ahmad to be a prophet as well." Is this statement true or false? If true, is it verifiable? Tarc (talk) 13:51, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

If you try to bypass policies by accusing someone of making complexities, then anyone can include anything by dropping a note below. And, u haven't answer the question!--AsceticRosé 13:59, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Your question is not really relevant, though. Let's take this from the top; you're complaining about statements in the article that call into question the "last Prophet" status of Muhammad, yes? That there should be no "most Muslims believe..." or "almost-universal" types of statements, because you have sources that say "he is the last Prophet", 100%, yes? But I'm pointing out this link that is in the article at present, to a Muslim group that does not believe Muhammad is the last prophet, and I'm asking if that is a true statement regarding their beliefs. It doesn't matter what source it is as long as it is an accurate statement. Primary sources can be used to establish basic facts. If it is true, is this Ahmadiyya group's point of view significant? If they are just a tiny group of cranks with little relevance to Islam as a whole, then their point-of-view can be ignored. If they represent a sizable opinion within the Muslim community though, then per WP:NPOV their point-of-view is important to consider for the article, and would justify the "most Muslims believe..." and "almost-universal" statements. Tarc (talk) 14:15, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc, you are partially correct. As you said "It doesn't matter what source it is as long as it is an accurate statement", how can you prove it is an accurate statement? For statements to true to us, we use RS. And I want to say that this statement is lacking this. And how can you say that "it does not matter what source it is". If sources does not matter, then why are there so many policies and restrictions? And about ahmadia, they are really a tiny group. and against all the RS, there view can be ignored. --AsceticRosé 14:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Tarc's point is that the primary source illustrates that sub groups do not necessarily believe it and that is backed by a reliable source. Also of note the ahmadiyya community is estimated over 10 million world-wide and while that might not make up a huge percent of Islam that hardly constitutes a "tiny" group. Tivanir2 (talk) 17:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes absolutely Tarc and Tivanir! That's what we are saying. They are tiny and as per WP:NPOV not notable. The muslims, don't consider ahmadis as Muslims as 1, 2, 3. They have no right to claim that the Islamic Prophet Muhamamd (P.B.U.H) was not the last prophet, even if they are 10 million, that just means a "trace". Even there is not reference to the already existing statement in the lead of "Most Muslims" Faizan -Let's talk! 10:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

• There's no gross violation of wikipolicy here. There is a minor one: the lead used to say "Most Muslims believe ...", and someone has changed to to "Muhammad is almost universally considered by Muslims ...". Saying that the Ahmadiyya represents a minority view isn't a problem: that's simple math. To describe them as being such a small minority that the other group represents "almost universal" belief is WP:OR.—Kww(talk) 20:58, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Here we are not talking about the figure of Ahmadiyya. Our concern is WP:OR and WP:RS. Either you have to prove the "Most Muslims"-type statement doesn't violate WP:OR and WP:RS, or it will be changed. Just saying that "There's no gross violation of wikipolicy here" without showing logic should not work on Wikipedia. I've already presented my logic. --AsceticRosé 04:18, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, we are talking about the Ammadiyya. They are Muslims. They do not believe Muhammad to be the last prophet. We have sources for that. It's not original research to say that not all Muslims believe Muhammad to be the last prophet. Your logic appears to be based either on denying the existence of the Ammadiya or denying that they are Muslim. Neither is a tenable position.—Kww(talk) 05:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Kww! Who are you to decide that Ahmadis are Muslims are not? These decisions cannot be made by you! They are Ahmadis, and Non-Muslims. Even if they are in millions that is justa trace of the whole Muslims, and thus their crapping comments about the Islamic Prophet Muhammad are not notable. Authority should not be posed. Faizan -Let's talk! 10:46, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you're quite correct. Kww has absolutely no right to decide who is and isn't a Muslim. It's you who has that particular right. Formerip (talk) 11:00, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I did not claim such right, it would be WP:RS which will decide. Faizan -Let's talk! 11:07, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Would the Oxford English Dictionary do? Formerip (talk) 11:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes obviously it does!! Even the definition provided by Oxford tells us that ahmedis are just a part of the movement which claims Mirza Ghulam Ahmed as their leader and the Mahdi. Faizan -Let's talk! 11:28, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

OK, but it also tells us they are Muslims. Formerip (talk) 11:30, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

No, it does not. Even if it does then it's not clear, and it refers to Ahmedis only as a movement as opposed to the general Muslims. Faizan -Let's talk! 11:40, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

It calls them a "muslim movement". To say that the word 'movement' means they are not muslims is a bit of a stretch. And yes, no one is disputing that they are a subset of muslim beliefs. But that's why the lede says "almost universal". Singularity42 (talk) 13:42, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

See this too. Faizan -Let's talk! 15:26, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

I again sincerely like to remind all that we are not discussing about Ahmadia. Here our concern is WP:RS and WP:OR. Kww, you have clearly gone out of track because you can't prove that the statement doesn't violate the wiki policies. Wikipedia statements will not be decided by what you think; it will be decided by what WP:RS and WP:OR permit. You said you have sources. What source? A personalized web-page against all the reliable sources we have already used to write this very article? If you insist on such funny tendencies, then all the wiki articles can be filled by what people themselves think by citing personal web-pages. That very statement clearly violates WP:RS and WP:OR. Probably this is my last comment on this issue. If you can't prove your point by wiki policies, I'll change the statement as per WP:RS and WP:OR. @Formerip, you have offered us a real laugh! Your given source clearly goes in our favor, and not yours. Plz, read that again!--AsceticRosé 15:53, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Kww, you don't have any jurisdiction to decide whether the Ahmadiyya are Muslims or not. It is an Islamic theological issue, and accordingly, only the Islamic theologians can decide it. Being a non-medical person, if I today make my own medical theory on any specific treatment, will the medical world accept that? Surely not because it will create serious disorder. The Islamic theologians have already declared them non-Muslim in many countries, and some are on the process, because their perverted view on the Last Prophet (SW) has created serious theological problem in Islamic world which you probably don't try to understand. Please do not try to impose your self-made comment in the field you are not expert on. Do you have sufficient Islamic Sharia knowledge to decide that?--AsceticRosé 17:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The Ahmadiyya consider themselves to be Muslim, and there is no one in the world with the power to take that away from them. I reject Islamic theologians as a source on the topic due to bias: the very bias that your description of their view as "perverted" and Faizan's use of "crapping comments" reveals. You don't want them treated as Muslim because you view them as heretics. That's your right. It doesn't mean that this article will reflect your bias, however.

The website you despise so is a reliable source about the Ammadiya beliefs, and that is what the sentence refers to. What both of you need to keep in mind is that this is not a debate as to whether Muhammad actually is the last prophet of a supernatural entity. That's purely a religious belief, and the article won't take a stance as to whether any particular religious belief is accurate or not. Certainly the religious beliefs about Muhammad are an important part of any reasonable article about the man, but they don't drive article content.

Now, if we were to use that website to say "Hundreds of millions of Muslims are wrong about Muhammad being the last prophet of God, per the Ammadiya" or anything approaching that statement, you'd have a good argument that the article contravened policy.—Kww(talk) 18:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, AsceticRose, your error in logic has an actual name:No true Scotsman. Comparison of your beliefs to the statement "No true Muslim believes that there was a prophet after Muhammad" might be illuminating.—Kww(talk) 18:28, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't automatically discount such an argument when used in the context of a religious discussion. "No true Christian denies the immortality of the soul" should be generally accepted as a truthful statement regarding the adherents of that faith. There are some sects that do deny the immortal soul, e.g. the Branch Davidians, but such groups have historically been branded as heretics and not considered to be of the body. Tarc (talk) 18:51, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

You would seriously argue that the Branch Davidians aren't truly Christian because they believe that the dead have no existence between death and resurrection? Despite the fact that they worship Christ and believe that we are living in an era that immediately proceeds his return? That's a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. They self-identify as Christian, they use the same religious texts as Christians, differing only in their interpretations of some verses, and their belief set about Christ generally conforms to the beliefs of most Christians (more conformant than Mormonism, for example). There's no authority that can decree them non-Christian.—Kww(talk) 19:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

That is, quite frankly, bullshit. If reliable sources describe Branch Davidians as non/un-Christian (and they do), then that is how the encyclopedia should (and we do) describe them. There isn't any exception granted to their fringe beliefs at immortal soul, for example. If this Ahmadiyya group is so far out of the Islamic mainstream regarding their views on who is/ is not a "last prophet", and there are sources to support that characterization of their beliefs, then perhaps there is validity to this AsceticRose person's view of this matter. Tarc (talk) 20:41, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

The Ammadiyans are fairly large group, numbering in the millions. Much larger than the Davidians, so they can't be dismissed as a tiny fringe cult. What reliable sources say that the Davidians aren't Christian, by the way?—Kww(talk) 21:07, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Kww honestly, you are ignoring the policies. You kept saying what you believe, but you are not proving how they are consistent with WP:RS and WP:NOR. Why are u not proving that u are correct in the light of WP:RS and WP:NOR. I expressed my view about ahmadia because you kept discussing about them. I don’t have any desire to speak about them. Do you want to say that very statement in the lead is an exception, and can exist without any RS (currently there is no source)? The RS say Muslims believe Muhammad to be last prophet, but that very statement has wrongly been interpreted as “Most Muslims…”. This is original research. Can you tell me if their opinion is so important, then why all the reputed writers all over the world have written in their book that Muslims consider Muhammad (SW) as last prophet? Are they wrong? And you are right? Is Wikipedia different from all other encyclopedias? Plz, don’t discuss this from religious viewpoint, because in that case we can never reach a consensus.--AsceticRosé 00:23, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

We have a source for the Ammadiyan's belief that he is not the last prophet that meets WP:RS in terms of describing their beliefs. That's all it's reliable for, but it is reliable for that. Since they are Muslims and do not believe that Muhammad is the last prophet, we have a reliable source that indicates that not all Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet. There's no question of WP:OR here.—Kww(talk) 00:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

When Faizan commented about Kww "Who are you to decide that Ahmadis are Muslims", I thought he was a little bit harsh. But now I see he was 100% correct. Kww is really talking bullshit as Tarc said. He is trying to propagate theological doctrines without being a theologian. He is trying to handle issue outside his range. Nice display. If the World take your example, all will dwindle into chaos. Stop this bullshit. How can one become a believer who can't respect their Prophet? Can u imagine a doctor without medical certificates? A shoulder on the battle-field without his gun?--AsceticRosé 01:19, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The source u mentioned is a RS for ahmadia belief, but I'm talking about the statement in the lead. It is without any WP:RS. The source u mentioned can't be a substitute for WP:RS we use for important statements. This is evident from the fact that it has been placed in the note. Can you use this source for the whole statement? Notes are used to explain any point, and not to substitute WP:RS. And once that source goes outside the purview of RS, that very statement can be considered as WP:OR--AsceticRosé 01:39, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

It isn't a substitute for a reliable source, it is a reliable source. It is a reliable source for the statement that not all Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last prophet, and whether the exception is phrased as "Most", "nearly all", or other variations is a matter of editorial judgement. That you consider that their belief that he wasn't the final Prophet disqualifies them from consideration is the essence of the No true Scotsman fallacy, and that is the basis of you trying to disqualify their own statements about their own beliefs from consideration.—Kww(talk) 02:20, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree with Kww here for the most part. First, though, I think it best to lay out what needs to be decided here. Specifically is there a group which reliable sources can confirm the following three things:

1. The group is specifically recognized by reliable sources as being Muslim.
2. The group is specifically noted by reliable sources as not believing that Muhammad is the last prophet.
3. The group is does not fall under WP:FRINGE.

It does not matter if a Wikipedia editor believes it is impossible for a Muslim to belive that Muhammad is not the last prophet. It does not matter if a Wikipedia editor believes the group is not Muslim. It does matter if a Wikipedia editor believes the group is a fringe group because the editor does not share the group's logic or beliefs. It does not matter if a Wikipedia editor does not like it. All that matters is the above three criteria. If a group meets all three critera, then the article can say "almost universal". If no group meets all three criteria, then the article should say "universal" instead.

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has been proposed as a group that meets all three criteria. So let's see:

1. There's no doubt the group itself self-identifies as Muslim, although that is probably not enough. Most of the editors in this discussion were comfortable looking at the Oxford dictionary definition of this group, which states they are a "Muslim movement". However, is a dictionary definition enough? Well, here the BBC calls them a "Muslim sect". Personally, between the self-identification, and multiple outside sources calling them Muslim, I'm inclined to say that criteria #1 is met. I think we would all be more comfortable, though, if there was a neutral academic source confirming this one way or another. Although deciding what is "neutral" may be a whole other can of worms.
2. I don't think there's any dispute that critera #2 is met. In that sense, Kww is perfectly correct: the primary source is a reliable source regarding the group's belief.
3. The Wikipedia article gives sourced information that the current population is 10 million. It would be hard to say this meets WP:FRINGE.

Singularity42 (talk) 03:24, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Singularity42, please tell me if you are also not talking bullshit. I've never insisted about their being Muslim or not (though what I believe is my personal matter). My point was WP:RS and WP:NOR. Why are you bringing theological discussion? Kww, I told you that their website is a RS for their belief, but what about the belief about the majority of Muslim sects? Where are references for that? Is Ahmadia belief more important to you than the rest? And if that is a reliable source, then I also have more reliable sources to support my claim. Should I use that hastily now?

[I'm not disqualifying them from showing their belief as you have misunderstood me]--AsceticRosé 04:57, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I will never accept that that very citation in the note will be or should be sufficient for the whole statement in the lead. We need other RS for that sentence just as all other sentences in wiki articles have. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AsceticRose (talk • contribs) 05:05, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Are you demanding a citation for the notion that most Muslims do believe that Muhammad was the last prophet? I think the sources we have suffice, but I'm sure we could find more. Since we have sources indicating the most Muslims do believe he was the last prophet, but roughly 10 million Muslims do not believe that, the statement we have seems quite well sourced. What precisely do you want a source to say before you would find it acceptable?—Kww(talk) 06:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

As the reliable, third-party sources say "Muslims believe that Muhammad (SW) is the last prophet…", I like to use that sentence without any "most" or "almost" as per RS. If you like, you can drop a note below declaring "However, the AMC, which also claim to be Muslim, believe…" . I think this can be a nice conclusion and I will do that as per WP:RS. (although I will not write the note due to my own belief. Interested people can do that)--AsceticRosé 08:37, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure everyone will agree with you in making this important edit (as you have already done) without waiting for comments from other WP editors. As the text now stands it is slightly misleading because one has to read the last of several footnotes before one learns that there is a small group of Muslims who do not believe that Muhammad was the last prophet.AstroLynx (talk) 12:54, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

There's millions of people who think Barack Obama was born in Kenya, but we don't alter Barack Obama to read "...most people think he was born in Hawaii in 1961". Quantity isn't always a reliable yardstick when taking measure of views that lie outside of an accepted mainstream opinion. Tarc (talk) 13:06, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

This isn't an issue of objective fact, simply of belief. Muhammad was a man viewed by various groups as being various things. Most people don't believe he was a prophet sent by God at all. Many groups of people do. Most Muslims not only believe that he is a prophet, but that he is the last prophet. That's all the lead says. The Barack Obama article does mention the birther controversy. A 10-million strong religious group is a large religious group, and not one to be casually neglected because some other Islamic groups find their views offensive.—Kww(talk) 15:33, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I can see where you're going with your argument, but this is the point where your argument also loses its bearings. You assert that a 10 million or so believe that he isn't the last prophet. Fair enough. But you somehow appear to overlook the 1 billion or so who are the mainstream and who do not identify with the same school of thought as the 10 million, and you further seem to classify (or devalue, if I'm getting this right) these one billion as "some other Islamic groups" simply existing just to oppose the 10 million because they find their views offensive. Your argument, of giving equal footing to a minority in parity with the majority, is flawed. See my comment below; we have a policy that deals with this, it's called WP:WEIGHT. The passage I have bolded is a textbook rule for dealing with this kind of issue. PS. I have no personal opinion on the Ahmadi movement nor have I intentionally passed any judgements here. My argument is solely policy-based and concentrated on WP:WEIGHT, which I shall reiterate yet again, is very relevant to this topic. Mar4d (talk) 16:01, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

• Comment It is the mainstream view that should be accorded WP:WEIGHT and emphasis in the article. And the mainstream view is that, barring one identified group, Muslims do recognise Muhammad as the last prophet. I think going out of the way to give space or preference to the views of one group in the same sentence that describes the views of the overwhelming majority might be an exaggeration or inappropriate comparison. Once again, I would like to stress that WP:WEIGHT should be thoroughly considered before making a change like this. I would like to quote a relevant passage from WP:WEIGHT: Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views. Cheers, Mar4d (talk) 13:42, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The present amended statement is backed by reputed reliable sources, and conforms to WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. It is the natural law of the world that majority/mainstream is given priority. It is sufficient that a note has been provided for AMC. That is the function of notes. Thanks Tarc and Mar4d for valuable comments.--AsceticRosé 15:28, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Using "almost universal" was agreed upon to remove WP:UNDUE issues, Mar4d. I agree that there would be a problem if the lead said something like "The status of Muhammad as the last prophet of Islam is in doubt, as the Ammadiya ...". That kind of statement would be giving a small group far more recognition than would be reasonable. The Ahmadiyya are nearly 1% of the world's Muslim population, though, and 99% is not 100%. That's all the lead is objectively trying to state.—Kww(talk) 15:50, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, Mar4d is right. WP:WEIGHT proves that previously undue weight was given to AMC belief. That's why the problem was created. Look, We are not ignoring the belief of AMC. A clear note has been provided. Kww, you are trying to overlook the policies. Plz put the new comments below and not inside the previous comments. It create confusion.--AsceticRosé 16:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

@kww: I am going out of my way to understand your perspective. But I'm inclined to feel that I will have to essentially repeat the point I put across previously. The question is based on proportions: just how significant is the school of thought identifying with the 1% when compared to the school of thought identifying with the 99%? Mathematical probability and common logic would dictate that the scale tips over to the 99% majority. It's not a question of whether you like it to be represented as that or not, it's a question of the overwhelming mainstream view. Per above, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views... - from what I can see, as far as policy-based discourse is concerned, Wikipedia seems to be overtly clear about it. Moreover, given that belief in Muhammad as the last messenger of God is one of the core tenets of mainstream Islam (read up Khatam an-Nabuwwah), it wouldn't be a stretch to go along with the change that has been proposed. If you're trying to be an WP:NPOV-conformist, be careful because you don't want to go to the point where, while vouching for NPOV, you forget WP:WEIGHT and mis-apply WP:BALANCE. Mar4d (talk) 16:46, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't know how anyone would need to go out of their way to understand my perspective: the belief that Muhammad is the last prophet isn't universal among Muslims, and the lead says that. The weight given the Ammadiya perspective is to change "universal" to "almost universal" and bury their perspective in a footnote. That's an appropriate weight for the view of 10 million people. Not obliterated, but clearly and absolutely marked as a minority view. It's clear from the use of phrases like "perverted" that AsceticRose has decided that he wants to exclude their view entirely, and the WP:OR argument is simply a fig-leaf.—Kww(talk) 16:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Like I said previously, I've no comments to pass on the Ahmadi movement and if anyone else has here, it is their personal view. Having said that, we should try to keep the discussion as rational and policy-based as possible. The footnote about the Ahmadiyya perspective can stay, but as far as the article lead is concerned, to have the wording "almost universally" due to a 1% that somehow stack up against the 99%, really... is it conforming to WP:WEIGHT? Why should a mainstream and core tenet belief not be represented as such in the article lead? Because 1% of people have a different view is not a very strong argument on the face of it. I'd like you to specifically read WP:WEIGHT and think it over. Mar4d (talk) 17:08, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

What percentage does it have to be to modify a universal statement like "universal" in your mind? We aren't talking an obscure cult or anything. If this was one lone sect in a small town, I'd be in absolute agreement with you. We're talking a group with a size comparable to the Mormon churches, which provide a very good parallel: clearly an offshoot branch of a major religion that possesses some unique points of theology, but still clearly belonging with the parent religion. 1% is a sizeable group, and, reviewing the five pillars of Islam, the belief that Muhammad is the last prophet is not a pillar.—Kww(talk) 17:25, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Is describing the belief of 99% of a group as "nearly universal" a case of undue weight?

The lead of Muhammad describes the belief that Muhammad is the last prophet as "nearly universal" amonng Muslims. The facts of the matter are not in dispute: the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, a group with 10 million adherents, is a large group that identifies themselves as Muslim, but does believe that their leader was himself a prophet, coming after Muhammad. The article has long had variations of the the statement indicating that most Muslims consider Muhammad to be the last prophet, and, in its most recent form, describes the belief that Muhammad is the last prophet as "almost universal" among Muslims, and relegates the beliefs of the Ahmadiyya to a footnote. Is this appropriate weight?—Kww(talk) 06:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Mention is reasonably appropriate:10 million isn't huge compared to the total Muslim population, but it is too large to completely ignore. Noting the belief of the 99% as nearly universal is certainly an accurate description that doesn't try to minimize the facts of the matter, and relegating the Ammadiya to a short footnote seems appropriate. The attacks on the sentence above do not seem to be rooted in good faith. AsceticRose describes the views as "perverted" and Faizan refers to them as "crapping comments". It's hard for me to view their efforts to take even the small footnote away as a good-faith exercise in neutrally applying Wikipedia policies. It's probably also worth noting that Mar4d identifies as being from Pakistan, a country where declaring the Ahmadiyya non-Muslim was actually written into the constitution. The effort so far appears to be an effort to bring Wikipedia in line with a long-standing case of religious persecution.—Kww(talk) 06:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

It's probably also worth noting that Mar4d identifies as being from Pakistan, a country where declaring the Ahmadiyya non-Muslim was actually written into the constitution. I can identify or not identify with whatever I want. What does that have anything to do with the outcome of the discussion here? What bearing does it have, if any, on my comments above which are policy-based? I do not take this "identification" from you in good faith. Have I not already mentioned that the Ahmadi perspective can be mentioned in a footnote, which is entirely appropriate with consideration of WP:DUE? Giving attribution to a mainstream and majority-held view as per WP:WEIGHT is not persecution. Let's desist from trying to make wild claims on the intentions of everyone here or making some Muslim conspiracy out of this. If you focus on the main issue which is essentially a matter of WP:WEIGHT, the argument is not very murky or hard to understand. A strawman is being raised out of nothing. Mar4d (talk) 06:59, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

You keep saying that, but you haven't explained why you don't view "nearly universal" as an accurate and balanced description of a view held by 99% of the group.—Kww(talk) 07:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Precisely because the view of the 99% is the mainstream view and the prevalent status quo. The other 1% exist, all right, and that's what we've got a foot note for. But the 1% are not as important as the status-quo 99%. Having exhausted myself repeating the same arguments to you over and over again, I cannot be any more blunt than this. Mar4d (talk) 16:47, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

You do repeat, but you never explain. "Nearly universal" is much stronger than "the mainstream view is". It means "the mainstream view is held by all but a very small portion of the group", which appears to be the case. What about "nearly universal" is either inaccurate or misleading in your view? That's my question, and you never answer it.—Kww(talk) 17:08, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Avoid defining "Muslim" in this article, and instead use the phrase "people who self-identify as Muslim". I note a couple things. First, the article Muslim has managed to avoid linking Muslim beliefs to the belief that Muhammad was the last prophet. Second, I compare the Ahmadiyya situation to Mormons. Mormons have approximately 14 million followers. Mormons self-identify as Chrisitian. Many larger groups of Christians do not believe Mormons are Christians. Wikipedia has chosen to avoid defining Christianity so precise as to to include or exclude Mormons (or other similar religions or denominations). Applying similar logic, I would suggest the sentence be: People who self-identify as Muslim almost universally consider Muhammad as the last prophet sent by God for mankind. Singularity42 (talk) 13:28, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
• Kww, you are bringing a series false allegations against me which can be regarded as a misconduct on your part. I and Faizan never said to remove that footnote from the article. My concern, from the beginning was the sentence on the lead. Even I advocated to drop a note below. Secondly, the passage where I used the word perverted was obviously not a part of this edit request, rather a reply to your theological discussion that you started. You also presented false info on TBrandley’s talk page that I pointed there. I don't expect such misconduct from you.--AsceticRosé 16:15, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• It's true that you only wanted to delete all mention of Muslims that did not view Muhammad as the last prophet from the text, leaving that information that they existed only in the footnote, and giving all readers that read only the beginning of the article the false impression that they did not exist.—Kww(talk) 16:20, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

• Maybe try wording his differently? Something like, "...are taught that Muhammad is the final prophet"? "doctrine of the faith includes a tenant that ..."? If it is the term "Universally considered", that User:AsceticRose objects to, I think that this can be resolved without resorting to edit-warring with a different more fact-based way of stating this. It appears that this belief is part of the doctrines and tenants of the religion, and a cornerstone to understanding how members of this religion understand their faith so weasel, subjective terms should probably be avoided.

Many religious followers are indoctrinated with beliefs, but saying that "99%" believe or Universally considered,something is tricky unless there is some way of knowing what they are thinking. Is there any kind of physical manifestation/sign or ceremonial swearing/validation that believers do to affirm their individual beliefs? Something like that would help to give a statement like this more weight. I'm thinking that Catholics who use a Rosary to pray exhibit a physical sign that they believe in something, Mormans wear Holy undergarments, Jews have customs like covering mirrors that physically manifest their faith. Are there any signals here that would verify one's belief? TeeVeeed (talk) 17:39, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Actually per WP the exclusion of other groups to suit a viewpoint is wrong unless they changed consensus recently as CLDS is the correct view; we identify them as considering themselves christian whether or not the mainstream views of christianity considers them as such. This was argued in archive 24 and still holds true today - one size doesn't fit all so like most things in wikipedia they are addressed in general terms and statements using statements such as "Most believe..." Hell if the want is to trudge up the ancient arguments I will happily trudge up the old responses; this hasn't changed in three years, the group identified itself then and identifies itself now as muslim ergo it is a muslim sect. whether or not they are heretics according to the mainstream viewpoints is irrelevant as we still tag it as self identified. By all means lets start an RFC if the wider community wants to change the status quo with well thought arguments I will be happy to listen. Tivanir2 (talk) 23:43, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you were responding to TeeVeeed, but actually their point was a very good one. We would be better to talk about doctrines as opposed to people. It's a bit artificial to pretend like we have access to a survey of all the world's Muslims. We wouldn't (or shouldn't, at least) say in WP's voice that the virgin birth is "almost universally" believed in by Christians. We would talk in terms of doctrine. We should do the same here. Formerip (talk) 01:09, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

I will say that considering the view of 99% as "nearly universal" is not justified because there virtually exists no difference between 99 and 100. The difference has only mathematical value. we should use only "universal". The reasons I've explained above.

As TeeVeeed mentioned, actually I'm not totally opposing "nearly universal", but my point was that as all the reliable sources are saying "Muslims believe that Muhammad (SW) is the last Prophet…", I was inclined to use this one. Problem has been created as Kww is not trying to understand this simple point, and unduly inviting other type of discussion. For only 1%, is not is sufficient that we are providing a clear foot note (while WP:WEIGHT says to relegate them in the "See also" section.

User:Mar4d and I are really exhausted to explain the same thing to Kww. But he is trying (I’m pathetic to say this) to take things in a roundabout way.--AsceticRosé 04:51, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

"Universal" and "nearly universal" do not mean the same thing, AsceticRose. I don't think the article should intentionally make a false claim. If you truly thought there was no difference between the two, you wouldn't have resorted to edit-warring. Please don't hold out that this is some kind of failure to understand the situation on my part.

That said, I would have no problem with a phrasing like "Major Islamic sects hold that Muhammad was the last prophet of God" or something similar. That would satisfy most of the comments received so far.—Kww(talk) 05:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

It is appropriately weighted as it stands, mentioning the Ahmadis in a footnote. That ten million out of over one billion disagree in some sense (and not even then completely, the Ahmadis believing that Muhammad was the last law-bearing prophet) is a great example of "nearly universal" (leaving aside completely, for the moment, the thorny issue amongst Muslims, of whether Ahmadis are Muslims: many authoritative Muslim bodies say "no", the Ahmadis say "yes"). Much like as in our articles on the age of the earth and biological evolution, we don't note that probably one percent of scientists disagree (likely more scientists disbelieve in the neo-Darwinian synthesis than Muslims - including Ahmadis - disbelieve that Muhammad is the last prophet), but describe said belief as "scientific consensus" or "nearly universally acknowledged". St John Chrysostom ^Δόξα_{τω ^Θεώ} 17:34, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Why not just state it as it is? "Muslims (although not some of the Ahmadiyya) consider Muhammad to be the last prophet sent by God for mankind" Or are there some Shia sects that spoil that simplicity? I suppose can't really do that anyway - too close to giving readers information. DeCausa (talk) 19:14, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately the way that statement is worded it passes the judgement that they aren't a Muslim group. If it can be rewritten neutrally and doesn't try to make a declarative statement then it might work but in the current suggestion it looks to me like it is more trying to draw a "these people aren't muslim line" than anything else. . Tivanir2 (talk) 17:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I don't particularly like the phrasing, but I don't see how you get that out of it. It clearly identifies the Ahmadiyya as Muslim, excluding them only from the group that believes Muhammad is the last prophet.—Kww(talk) 17:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

my apologies my sleep addled brain apparently misinterpreted it. I think a better phrasing would be "Muslims (though some sects believe differently like the Ahmadiyya) consider Muhammad to be the final prophet sent by God to mankind". Thoughts? Tivanir2 (talk) 22:46, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Kww’s proposed sentence may be problematic. If we say Major Islamic sects, it means there are some minor sects who believe otherwise, while in reality, we all know, there is only one sect (AMC) who believe otherwise. Even that sect is only 1% that hardly makes any difference. And it is because of the fact that all the reputed sources clearly say Muslims believe Muhammad (SW) to be the last Prophet. This is exactly the point I'm trying to point out.--AsceticRosé 05:02, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

How about if we name the sects? Could we find a source that says "sunni, shiite, etc comprise x% of mulims and they believe etc etc". TippyGoomba (talk) 05:27, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I suppose "generally considered" isn´t good enough? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:44, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I could see the use of the statment "Most major Islamic sects (with the exclussion of the Ahmadiyya) believe that Muhammad was the final prophet of God to mankind" which would work as well. I believe the sticking point in AsceticRose mind is that we are not saying "All muslims believe x" because the Ahmadiyya are a small group. The problem is if we use "All muslims believe x" that is tautamount to saying "Ahmadiyya's are not muslim" even though they identify themselves as a muslim group. Wikipedia isn't here to label groups it is here to report things as based on reliable sources. As long as it is not a universal belief within a group we have to caveat it with wording, like the phrase most, in order to show that it isn't 100%. Hell even if there is a large group I am not very comfortable with the idea that we use definitive statements because there are bound to be people within the group that differ on points. Tivanir2 (talk) 16:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I I agree with Tivanir2, and I relate it back to my earlier propostion (but I like Tivanir's solution better). The issue is that Wikipedia cannot say all people (either generally or a certain group) believe something when it is demonstrably untrue. Compare to the Flat Earth situation. Wikipedia has no problem saying the Earth is not flat, as that is an objective fact, and the opposite is a fringe theory. What Wikipedia does not say is that "All people believe the Earth is not flat", because that is simply not true. Singularity42 (talk) 17:49, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

But Singularity42, how do we know that the Earth is not flat?--AsceticRosé 14:06, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Because we have reliable sources saying so. It is an objective fact, backed up by reliable sources, that nearly all Muslims believe Muhammad to be the last Prophet, and a small minority do not.

I disagree with singling out a specific sect as an exception in this biography about Muhammad. This is WP:UNDUE weight. We may as well add other groups like Buddhists and Catholics too, just to make everything perfectly clear.

The statement "Nearly all Muslims believe..." with a footnote is best. Nobody would disagree with that statement. ~Amatulić (talk) 14:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, by reliable sources. But on my part, I so far haven't encountered any reliable source that uses "nearly all Muslims...". They generally use "Muslims believe...". Actually I don't have any special interest for the latter as its being used on Wikipedia, but WP:RS is saying so. (By the way Amatulic, where have you been so far? I was expecting your comment).--AsceticRosé 15:17, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

A reliable source need not use those exact words. here is one, for example, that acknowledges that not all Muslims believe Muhammad is the last prophet, while at the same time acknowledging the point made on this page above that it matters how different groups identify themselves. This source took me less than 1 minute to find.

It is curious that this source also mentions a different-named group who self-identifies as Muslim but does not believe Muhammad is the last prophet: the Qadiani sect, which appears to be a branch of Ahmadiyya, according to the article we have on it. ~Amatulić (talk) 15:30, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Addressing your WP:RS argument for a moment, AsceticRose, there's no requirement whatsoever that we mimic any source. There's a lot of reasons that a source might choose to simplify things. Sometimes just to make things simple: Islam for Dummies isn't interested in explaining every detail, it's interested in getting the main points across. Sometimes it's political: any source that recognizes the Ahmadiyya as Muslim risks backlash from orthodox Muslims and from the Pakistani government.—Kww(talk) 15:39, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Saying "nearly all Muslims..." means there are other Muslims who don't believe that. But we know there is controversy regarding Ahmadya’s being Muslims. If there is source that calls them as Muslims, there are also sources that strongly deny that. How will Wikipedia solve that conundrum? I mean, if we accept Ahmadya’s insistence on self-identified as a basis, the question is can only a claim legalize anything?

Qadiani is not any branch, as far as I know, of Ahmadis, rather the Ahmadis is called by that name in Indian subcontinent. @ Kww, I'm not sure why you are specially targeting Pakistan? (u did this on 2 occasions!)--AsceticRosé 17:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

So far as I know, Pakistan is the only government that has officially declared the Ahmaddiya to not be Muslims and included that in their constitution. The way we resolve the conundrum is simple: they self-identify as Muslims, reliable sources describe them as Muslims. The declarations that they are not Muslim all appear to come from sources with religious bias and can be discounted.—Kww(talk) 17:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

That may be simple to you, but not to us (just as considering them non-Muslim is simple to us but not so to you). If you consider the view of the majority as biased, then probably you are walking on the wrong way. It is highly objectionable that you are discounting the sources that represent the 99% Muslims. It is those sources by which we have so far written the all the Islam-related wiki articles. It is those sources which have their foundation in mainstream Islamic theologians' works; sources the World use to know Islam. The tireless efforts of Islamic theologians over the years across the regions have created those sources.

It is curious to see an Islamic theological issue is being solved by you. Can you solve the other Islamic theological issues of the Muslim world?

By the way, if you can resolve the conundrum in your way, we can likewise resolve that in our way: all the Muslim communities unanimously (see this) consider them non-Muslim. So treat them as non-Muslims and amend the article accordingly.

And, salute to the Pakistan government for their bold step.--AsceticRosé 17:11, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I make no effort to resolve Islamic theological issues. Theological issues aren't particularly relevant to this article. I will point out that the majority of the world is not Muslim, so describing the Ahmadiyya as "Muslim" isn't necessarily a minority view. All you have demonstrated is that it is a minority view among Muslims, who represent around 20% of the world's population.—Kww(talk) 19:07, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Calling Ahmadis muslims or non-muslims is essentially a theological issue. I couldn’t work out the meaning of the last part of your last message. However, on my part, when I said the sources that represent the 99% Muslims, I meant both Muslim and non-Muslim sources. You will see, when Western non-Muslim reputed writers discuss about Muslim communities, they even refrain from discussing Ahmadis. Can't you get any message from this?

Ok, think for a moment: if the Ahmadis were really Muslims, what problem would the mainstream Muslim have to accept that? If they were really Muslims, what would Muslims get by excluding them?--AsceticRosé 04:37, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll make my last statement simpler. 80% of the world is non-Muslim. Most of that 80% would, upon having the Ahmadiyya described to them, immediately classify them as Muslims. If 99% of Muslims say the Ahmadiya aren't Muslims, that still leaves around 80% of the world saying they are. That they are widely considered to be heretics by other Muslims still makes them heretical Muslims. Note that this RFC has generated essentially no support for your position of treating them as non-Muslim, with most of the discussion centering on whether the "nearly universal" phrasing the article uses is too strong, and the only people that are arguing that it is too weak are those that have stated biases. —Kww(talk) 05:02, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Yah, thou think the world is so infatuated with the Ahmadis, while in reality most conscious writers shrink even to mention them.

The present "most-Muslim" type statement stands illegally without any citation. Can't any administrator notice this and fix it according to what WP:RS say.--AsceticRosé 16:38, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

"Most" is uncontroversial. Ahmedis are Muslims - they submit to the will of Allah - and they do not believe Muhammad was the last prophet; ergo, most but not all Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last prophet. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 12:28, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

It's a curiosity of the RS that both the following statements seem to be able to be stated:

(1) as far as I can see, when describing the tenets of Islam all the RS seem to simply say, in terms, "Muslims believe that Muhammad was the last prophet" without qualification. AsceticRose gave some examples earlier in this thread.

(2) RS (that is non-sectarian sources) treat the Ahmadiyya as Muslims, albeit a somewhat fringe sect.

I'm not aware, and I haven't seen anyone point out, an RS that specifically qualifies the "Muslims believe..." type of statement because of the Ahmadiyya "exception" - but I may have missed it. Does that mean it's WP:SYNTH for us to do so? DeCausa (talk) 12:52, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Insufficient citations

In order to meet the GA criteria, an article can't have citation needed tags laying around. Can someone fix these citation problems? If no sources can be found to support those statements, then the statements should be removed.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 22:20, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The entire article contains three.

The first one was put there by someone with a reading comprehension problem, since the citation given clearly says what the article claims. I removed the tag.

The second tagged sentence can be safely removed entirely, as it contains what appears to be original research for a dubious claim that contradicts other parts of that paragraph. I removed that sentence.

The third one, in the "Establishment of a new polity" section, I'm not sure about. I have no access to the source cited later in that paragraph, which should logically include support for that claim. If it does, then the tag can be removed. ~Amatulić (talk) 22:51, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I assume the source you're talking about is "Watt 1956". It's available online.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Google Chrome shows nothing. IE shows the top 1/5 of each page. Given the detail I can see in there, that's probably the source of that sentence, in which case the reference occurring later in the same paragraph may be sufficient. But without being able to see the whole pages, I can't be sure. ~Amatulić (talk) 01:32, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

There are other options to view the book. You can find them on the left side of this webpage.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 01:44, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Oddly, today it worked.

And I was correct, the citation that followed was the citation for the "citation needed" sentence. That citation referenced two different pages, so I split them up to reference separate pages and removed the tag.

We still have a problem with GA status, though. The sentence that needed a citation is taken nearly verbatim from the source:

Source: One feature common to nearly all the men in the first two lists is that they came from clans which had not produced great leaders themselves but which had suffered from warlike leaders belonging to other clans.

Wikipedia: The first group of pagan converts to Islam in Medina were the clans who had not produced great leaders for themselves but had suffered from warlike leaders from other clans.

The sentence should be paraphrased, but I'm not sure how just yet. ~Amatulić (talk) 14:38, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

What about this one: The first group of pagans who came under Islam in Medina were the clans without any great leaders from amongst themselves, but they were sufferers of hostile leaders from outside clans.--AsceticRosé 17:14, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

That's still uncomfortably close to the original but I'll work with it. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:59, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

"Criticism"

The content of this section should be merged into other sections per guidelines.[1] FunkMonk (talk) 20:13, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Please note that what you linked to is neither policy nor guideline, but merely an essay; it has no formal standing. Thanks, Doc Tropics 13:17, 13 May 2013 (UTC)