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Infobox inclusion: It has been agreed by a unanimous consensus discussion as well as a discussion at an RfC that this article will use the following criteria for inclusion of candidates in the infobox: candidates that can theoretically win 270 Electoral Votes through ballot access and/or write-in access shall be included.
Order of candidates in the infobox: It has been agreed by consensus from an RfC at the article United States presidential election, 2016 that US presidential election articles will use the following criteria for ordering candidates in the infobox: order based on results of the candidates or their parties from the previous presidential general election.
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In response to the request for a better photo of Evan McMullin, I've created a new section on this talk page comparing the current photo to a viable replacement. I haven't actually replaced it yet as I'm trying to reach a consensus through discussion, please reply if you like it. Thanks! BrendonTheWizard (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding 5, we could add maps as a link under the electoral vote count. That way we can add maps for as many candidates as folk wish to create without taking up more space. Bcharles (talk) 14:31, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's actually a pretty good idea, @Bcharles:. But, what if a mistake was made on one of the maps? Since they wouldn't have good visibility due to the fact that they're on separate pages, it would be a while until the mistake is corrected. Plus, what's wrong with making a new section on the page just for the maps? Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin (talk) 16:36, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There are a fair number of editors who would be checking the maps, particularly while changes are being made to the list of states. The maps would likely be displayed on the candidate, or relevant party, page; and perhaps the United States third-party and independent presidential candidates, 2016 article. The list of minor candidates is already long, and has been mentioned as a possible violation of undue weight. Keeping the information compact helps keep it in perspective. Bcharles (talk) 18:18, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Order of the list of candidates in the infobox
There is a clear consensus that the first row of the infobox should contain the Democratic Party candidate and the Republican Party candidate. The candidate whose party received more electoral votes in the previous election should be on the left; the second candidate should be on the right.
There is insufficient discussion on whether third parties' candidates should be listed in the infobox or how they should be ordered. More discussion is needed if editors want to resolve those issues.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Background: Broad consensus has been reached as to which candidates are included in the infobox in presidential elections, however, despite much discussion on the issue, there has never been a firm consensus as to how they are ordered. Previous suggestions include alphabetically, an aesthetic criterion, by ballot access, by poll results, or some other order. Summary of advantages/disadvantages:
Alphabetically - Advantages: Fair, simple, precise and unambiguous. Disadvantages: Doesn't give extra weight to potentially stronger candidates.
Ballot access - Advantages: Gives extra weight to potentially stronger candidates. Disadvantages: Perception of bias toward established parties, the order changes as ballot access changes.
Poll results - Advantages: Provides a rough indication of candidate's popular support. Disadvantages: The actual election is not based on popular support, polls are unreliable, subject to bias and constantly changing.
Alphabetically - This method is precise and fair, and once settled on, it avoids all future arguments among editors as to which candidates/parties should get "extra weight" in the infoboxes. The order doesn't constantly change based on external factors which are sometimes ambiguous and potential biased. This also more closely follows WP guidelines on the order of lists. Regarding WP:Weight, all of the candidates in the infobox have achieved a threshold that separates them from the hundreds of others who are unlikely to be elected. The difference in elect-ability between a candidate that has 50-state ballot access and one who has 47-state access is inconsequential. Although two parties have dominated U.S. politics for some time, this can change (and historically has changed). Differences between the candidates who have made the cut and appear in the infobox are best handled within the body of the article where the subtleties of weight can be better addressed. Sparkie82 (t•c)10:11, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What is the scope of this RFC? It's phrased and advertised as if it's relevant to all elections, but the argument and forum suggests that it's relevance is limited to US presidential elections. The scope needs to be clarified before continuing. RamiR12:14, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The RfC is for this article (United_States_presidential_election, 2016). If it results in a firm consensus with a clear standard, then the consensus could be relied upon for 2020, 2024... Sparkie82 (t•c)02:30, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note that this covers the pre-election time period. I believe that there already is a consensus to sort the candidates by actual electoral votes received post-election. Sparkie82 (t•c)02:30, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They overlap but are not precisely the same. This RfC is about ordering the candidates, that one is about how to break that order up into rows. (I encourage everyone here to participate in that discussion as well.) Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 21:34, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tradition – US elections have essentially been a two-party system for more than a century, so the first row should reflect this reality, otherwise many readers would be confused. Second-row candidates and beyond can be listed alphabetically. For the ordering of the first row, tradition places the incumbent party on the left and the challenging party on the right, i.e. no change from today's placement. — JFGtalk19:44, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tradition/keep prior consensus The candidates were consistently sorted by ballot access throughout 2012, with the incumbent party in the first spot. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 21:32, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Some newer !votes support using past electoral results to determine the order. This carries an implication that only parties with prior success will have success in the future, which is a subtle case of WP:CRYSTAL. Ballot access is purely objective and reflects a current rather than past situation. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 05:17, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The implication is what you make of it. It is certainly not WP:CRYSTAL since we're not adding any further information. You'll agree that we must find an order, and any order will carry some perceived bias. How exactly do you suggest to order parties with equal ballot access? There are two issues here: inclusion and order. I agree that ballot access should be the criteria for incusion. However, for ordering the candidate, this page should use the same method used on all election articles across WP: previous election results. Ballot access is not precise enough, polls are too volatile, and alphabetical gives undue weight to any minor party whose name startswith A. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 12:31, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tradition - If we are going to include 3rd Party candidates in the infobox, let's not pretend they are as important as the two major parties. --yeah_93 (talk) 01:30, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We need to summarize in the same way as reliable sources. At the moment, they describe this election in a 2+1+1+others way, so Dem/Rep on first line, Lib/Green on second, and lets see if any others get ballot access. Revisit if a 3rd party rises sufficiently to get access to debates (15% in polls). Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 08:10, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My default position for an upcoming election is to list candidates in order of how well they did last time: that's the usual approach on most election articles and seems sensible. If reliable sources/polls are consistently showing something else, then I would switch to that (recognising that "consistently" can be difficult to define). Were we to get to a point where, say, Stein was consistently being talked about as having a serious chance of winning, but Johnson was being ignored by RS as an irrelevance, then I think the infobox should reflect that. (I do not believe that outcome will happen.) Bondegezou (talk) 09:29, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think that Bondegezou's suggestion (ordered by votes in previous general election) is a good one. In general I would favour some sort of simple, objective criterion; it will hopefully minimize both arguing about the order and about whether wikipedia is taking/should take a political POV. Second preference would be for alphabetical order (though probably it should be clarified whether you mean alphabetical by party name or by candidates name, and if the latter what you intend to do whilst two of the candidates are still unconfirmed).Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 13:58, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tradition - The Democrats & Republicans should get the top row. A third & fourth party can be added to the top line if they win any electoral votes. GoodDay (talk) 14:09, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Previous result is, I believe, the only method that is impartial, non-arbitrary and rooted in actual facts. It settles the issue once and for all and it has the advantage of mirroring the order used for other election articles (e.g. Canadian federal elections). Specifically, I would order the candidates by their parties' electoral votes in the last election. The tie-breaker would be the popular vote in the previous election. As a second (unlikely) tie-breaker--for example if two brand new parties qualify--we can go alphabetically, either by party or by candidate's last name, or ballot access, whichever the community prefers.
In short I suggest we order the parties according to:
If no consensus can be reached regarding using alphabetical order, then previous results is preferable to just arbitrarily selecting the Democrats and Republicans to always go first. I'd suggest always putting the incumbent first because sometimes the incumbent will not have the most electoral votes (or no votes, e.g., Ford) or a candidate could switch parties while in office. Then sort the remaining candidates by the candidates'/parties' previous electoral votes, treating "independent" like a party. If there is more than one independent in the infobox, then sort them alphabetically in place. I agree that popular vote could be used as a tie-breaker. Also, I think that the incumbent should be indicated as "incumbent" or "incumbent party" and the previous vote totals shown in the infobox so the sorting order is explicit. If an election was settled in the House then also include those votes in the infobox. Sparkie82 (t•c)20:33, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the incumbent candidate or their party should be put first. I think adding other info like incumbency and previous results is too much. Th infobox is cluttered enough as it. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 16:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, including previous total electoral votes prior to the election is less information than is included after the election. Also, including the word "incumbent" is no more than including the word "presumptive", which is currently there for two of the candidates. Sparkie82 (t•c)00:18, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I misunderstood, I thought you wanted to include that information even after the election. I'm not against including it until Election Day. However, I still think writing "incumbent" is not needed. That information is included on the infobox's bottom left corner already. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 00:59, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Rank by electoral college votes in the previous election or, if did not earn an electoral college vote in the previous election, by rank in polls or (if no polls) ballot access.--Proud User (talk) 23:18, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, if we had stuck with my original idea of not putting any prez or vice prez nominees in the infobox, until after the presidential election results? There'd be no disputing over order of candidates, who to include, when to include etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 16:04, 5 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Traditional Images are sorted by previous electoral college results. No mess. Easy to follow. Less drama if we stick with what we know works. --Majora (talk) 01:31, 7 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What if the sitting president (or their party) did not receive the most electoral votes in the previous election? Sparkie82 (t•c)00:18, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Sparkie82: I think you confused electoral college votes with the popular vote. While the winner of the popular vote has not become president four times (most recently in 2000), the candidate who receives the most electoral college votes becomes the President 99.9% of the time. The only time this could not occur is if nobody receives a majority. Then Congress picks and could, in theory, pick someone else. This has not happened since 1824 and is unlikely to happen again. If and when that occurs then we can come up with a different consensus. Until then, we go by the last electoral college results. --Majora (talk) 00:33, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I was referring to the cases in which the House decides, or a president switches parties mid-term, or when a president is not elected at all, e.g., Ford. The possibility of no majority is actually pretty high this year, in fact, one possible strategy being discussed for an alternate candidate is to appear on the ballot in a few key states in order to deny a majority and then win in the House. If the list of candidates is not sorted alphabetically, then I think the incumbent should be first, and the rest sorted by electoral votes (or votes in the House if the election is decided that way.) Sparkie82 (t•c)01:01, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted the edit of 04:11, 24 May 2016 by Antony-22 (which added a consensus infobox to this talk page) because we have not yet reached a consensus here. (That edit was made during a previous discussion on the same issue.) Sparkie82 (t•c)11:37, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it's pretty clear that we reached consensus given the overwhelming majority of opinions in favor of keeping the previous ordering. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 12:04, 14 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It seems unlikely that we will gain a consensus to order the candidates alphabetically at this time. Given that, I propose using the following criteria for this and future United States presidential election articles:
1. Place the current president in the first position (if she is a candidate in the presidential election that is the subject of the article).
2. Order the rest based on the candidates' previous actual electoral vote totals (or House vote totals if the election is dispositive within the House).
3. If a candidate did not participate in the previous presidential election, then use the number of votes received by the candidate's current party in the previous electoral election (or House votes if the election was dispositive in the House).
4. If there is a tie in the number of electoral votes (or House votes if dispositive in the House), use the number of popular votes cast for the candidates' (or parties') electors to break that tie.
5. Candidates (or parties) who don't have any votes based on the above criteria are placed in alphabetical order following the candidates/parties who do have an electoral history.
Previous result, even though I don't mind using tradition and polling numbers. I think using the previous result is the most neutral and objective method that there is, and in addition I believe it is used for other election articles. I don't want Wikipedia to give undue coverage to third parties as if it were campaigning for one (and at the same time, I don't want Wikipedia to censor third parties either). I want fair coverage. --1990'sguy (talk) 14:30, 29 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is a long-standing consensus based on discussions in previous presidental articles that presidental general election candidates who have ballot access sufficient to have a mathematical possibility to reach a majority (270) of electoral votes are including in the infobox. The consensus regarding the order of candidates (from this discussion) is that the order is based on previous electoral results, not an arbitrary selection of particular parties. The issue of whether to arrange the candidates as two-per-row or four-per-row was not the subject of this question and there is no consensus on that. Sparkie82 (t•c)03:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A call for consensus on McMullin and Castle
KEEP WRITE‐IN CANDIDATES
There is a rough consensus for keeping the write‐in candidates. However, most of the arguments for keeping the write‐in candidates was made before the addition of Rocky De La Fuente and Laurence Kotlikoff to the infobox—some write‐in supporters might now reverse their position. Therefore I personally recommend that a compromise acceptable to both sides—such as those proposed by User:Guiletheme and User:JayCoop—be made in a new discussion. —MartinZ02 (talk) 22:30, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Presidential candidates Evan McMullin and Darrell Castle, who have enough votes through write-in access to win the presidency be included in the infobox alongside candidates with enough ballot-access votes to win the presidency?--Guiletheme (talk) 20:14, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
As a committed voter for one of the major candidates, I have no dog in the fight between including or excluding them. However, it looks extremely unprofessional of us here at Wikipedia for an average Internet user to come to this page as a reference and see Castle and McMullan here one day, removed the next, another user adds them back, another removes them, ad nauseum. We need to have a call for consensus, because it makes it confusing for our readers and most importantly, Wikipedia's credibility to have these candidates removed and readded for the same reasons, about the write-ins, ballot access, etc.--Guiletheme (talk) 17:40, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content
More background: Castle and other write-ins are not currently in the infobox because of a consensus reached about four years ago. Here's a link to the original consensus for infobox inclusion in presidential election articles: [1] (Number of candidates in the infobox). The most recent attempts to add write-in candidates started with an attempt to add Castle to the infobox during a discussion on Aug 23 at 735891756, which was challenged (reverted) at 736056459. The addition of Castle and other write-ins have been proposed/challenged/discussed ever since at discussions on this article, including the thread #Infobox inclusion, again and several other threads without reaching a consensus to add them. Sparkie82 (t•c)10:13, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree! I consensus shall be put into order! I vote to keep Castle and McMullin in the info-box because they're both are able to reach 270 e.-v.'s, even though write-in states would be required.I also suggest, to make it easier to count votes, that everyone should make their vote in bold, like I did.Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin (talk) 18:21, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - If they have a potential to win the election, then I think they should be in the infobox, especially since further down on the page it indicates their ballot access and how many write-in votes they have access to / would need. jmcgowan2 (talk) 19:46, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I am officially neutral in this matter, but I do have to pick a side and I'll pick keep since deletion does not create a better article in this instance. Everyone interested in the topic the article relates to has heard of Clinton and Trump by now, and most have heard about Stein and Johnson, but Castle and McMullin can theoretically win the election and they should be listed alongside the other candidates with enough access as well. Six candidates balances the infobox nicely, we aren't adding undue weight and it does protect Wikipedia from accusations of bias, along with providing voters and interested parties information about every candidate with a theoretical path to victory. My goal for this page is to be a neutral, authoritative source for information going into the election since many people use Wikipedia as a "starting point" to learn about the topic. --Guiletheme (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia:Consensus is the policy that guides implementing a consensus regarding an article. I have asked other editors to add their input and their opinions so we can achieve a true consensus. Unfortunately, we cannot have a definitive consensus with just three votes and not even a day to debate. In the meantime, I would suggest that Castle and McMullin stay unless a consensus is determined otherwise.--Guiletheme (talk) 20:21, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep In 2012, the Constitution and Justice Parties were both included in the infobox prior to the election, both of which needed write-in access to reach the 270 EV threshold. The message at the top of the 2012 article's talk page stated that "any candidate with a mathematical chance of winning 270 pledged electoral votes, and thus the election, is included in the infobox... including write-in access in states that have had full electoral slates nominated and certified." I support continuing this approach. It is for voters to determine who will get the electoral votes, and we should not act as gatekeeper and deny infobox inclusion to any candidates who have a possibility of winning the Electoral College. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 20:35, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't Keep -- Literally any American old enough could be listed if we're going to count people who could hypothetically win through write-ins. If a candidate is not on the ballot in enough states to get 270 Electoral Votes, they don't belong in the infobox. Mizike (talk) 20:41, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In most states, candidates must file in advance in order for write-in votes to count, and we additionally require that they've named a full elector slate, which doesn't always happen. That being said, I think it would be reasonable to require that all infobox candidates must have actual ballot access in at least one state and/or be notable enough for a Wikipedia article, just in case someone unnotable happens to file for write-in access in the requisite number of states. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 04:34, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't keep per GoodDay. Also Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin a few things. We do not need a running tally as I'm assuming we are all at least moderately intelligent human beings who can count. Please stop doing that. Also, Wikipedia is not a vote.
Guiletheme, RfCs run for an entire month. Putting the end of this one a few days before the actual election, making the entire process pretty much moot. I've already mentioned this previously on this page as a reason why a RfC on this is going to solve nothing but meh. Whatever. --Majora (talk) 21:15, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@GoodDay, Majora, and Antony-22: That's not a valid reason. We can't just assume that none of the third party candidates will meet the already agreed upon post-election inclusion criteria of receiving at least 1 pledged EV or 5% of the popular vote. This reasoning goes against WP:SPECULATION. This RfC is about pre-election inclusion criteria so it doesn't matter which candidates will or will not remain after the election. As for the RfC end date... one month is the suggested length, but we can certainly request that it be closed before then. I'd say 2 or 2.5 weeks is more realistic than 1 week. But even if this RfC doesn't close until a month and becomes moot, at least in 2020 we'll have a thorough discussion we could look back on. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 23:36, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I understand why you might want to keep them in for now, but I am one of those most stanchly opposed to putting Castle and McMullin in the 'infobox', as much as I respect all of your viewpoints. My opinion is that, in order to preserve all of Wikipedia's "neurality and lack of bias" that you mentioned above, I vote to remove Castle (as well as McMullin) from the infobox, as well as the major parties section, the debates section, and the conventions section. From what I can see, simply getting to a 'mathematical majority', as the Constitution Party has done, does not equate to endorsements from a powerful sitting president and actually being considered a viable contender – what do the people here think is the likelihood that they, or any third-party, for that matter, will win? I think that it's just not right that Castle and McMullin get, in essence, the same treatment from us as Clinton or Trump do. And, in the very least, if they're included, I'd suggest that there be three rows, with the current ordering, as I have done multiple times before. The first would constitute Clinton, on the left-hand side, of the incumbent Democratic Party (she's generally the one with the highest support). Trump is there as well – as a major-party nominee, he has received full ballot access. The third one is Johnson, who finished short of only Obama and Romney when he got his party's nomination in 2012, is completely over the map, and usually gets inside of the high single-digits in polling. Then comes the last 'major' third-party candidate, Jill Stein, who, I believe, received one-third of a percent last time around and is also frequently mentioned in the media (both of them are in about a quarter to a third of the articles that I read). After that would be Darrell Castle, who actually belongs to a party and has more 'ballot access' than McMullin, the independent who just recently entered and also has more than 300 – when you count write-ins, of course. Again, I wouldn't much mind if most editors let all of them in, against my wishes, as long as the intent from a lot of you is clear. However, I'd highly recommend that you consider, and implement, this proposal. I also completely agree with Guilletemme that we should keep the top part consistent, though I wouldn't care whether or not we left them – that is, of course, until a consensus is reached. Antony-22's approch looks fair, too, but just because it happened four years ago doesn't mean it should again – even if we can't agree. There was also quite a bit of debate around how we should organize it at that time, as well. And, just for the record, this new system hadn't been implemented, or even brought up, prior to 2012. Similarly, Mikaze, although my vote goes in the same direction as yours does, I just can't see how every adult would be included as of yet. In fact, it will probably be just six of them – for the entire rest of this year. Finally, I don't think a simple 'majority-vote' would amount to a consensus, but, then again, if I'm the only one advocating for four candidates, I guess that would be sufficient to keep all of them. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 21:49, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
After the election is over, keep Johnson and Stein with their total number of votes listed. For now, Castle should not be on the infobox because he will not be on the ballot. Surely he will receive votes as well, so after the election is over, re-add him his number of votes. McMullen should be removed for now and re-added once someone can get a picture of him to put in the infobox. As of right now, I add to the consensus of "don't keep" for Castle. BrendonTheWizard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 02:27, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
People yelling at me for using a term that's "not appropriate" for a consensus and for counting "votes", which is supposedly "not good". Also, I'm getting a picture of David Evan McMullin that I posted on this site deleted due to "non-fair-use" reasons. Maybe we should have a consensus about if I should or shouldn't quit Wikipedia.Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin (talk) 21:39, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No, I didn't mean it that way. Sorry if you took it offensively, I regret it that my comment rubbed the wrong way with some editors. That's not what my message was in explaining it to Yuri, but I'm sorry about that, and I take back my positions. I apologize for any inconveniences caused. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 02:42, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Nobody was yelling at you. Just informing a new editor who, understandably, may not know the inner workings of Wikipedia how things function around here. Constructive criticism is one of the cornerstones of Wikipedia. Right up there with collegiate collaboration. It is not malicious. It is purely informative. --Majora (talk) 21:49, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I understand, and my opposition to Yuri's comments are the same. Perhaps you could've done that in a more polite way, though? And, as a sidenote, not everything has to be bolded or italicized.
Keep - they appear to meet the inclusion criteria from the 2012 presidential campaign page, which was adopted by consensus here earlier.XavierGreen (talk) 22:29, 3 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This, to me, is the best argument for keeping these candidates. But I definitely think that in future elections the inclusion criteria should not include people who can only win via write-in -- doing so just looks silly and opens things up to including Vermin Supreme and the like in the infobox (no offense to Vermin Supreme intended). Mizike (talk) 14:11, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Castle and McMullin are not currently in the infobox because they don't meet the criterion, which is to be on the ballot in enough states to reach 270. Sparkie82 (t•c)03:15, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. 1. The standard should be to include those candidates who have a mathematical chance of winning 270 electoral votes. 2. For determining the previous, write-in access should be counted in those cases where a candidate has named a slate of electors, those electors can be voted for, and the votes for those electors would be counted. That includes some, but not all, forms of access to the write-in mechanism. 3. I am personally dubious that McMullin meets the preceding standard (Castle does meet it). However, in this case editors are edit warring over those two as a bloc, and voting here over those two as a bloc. As Castle ought to be in the infobox, I support the option that puts him in the infobox. 4. None of the preceding matters. This RFC will not conclude until near election day. The edit warring will not cease before election day regardless of the RFC outcome. The revert restriction that exists on this article to prevent such edit warring will not be enforced before election day either. After election day, Castle, McMullin and Stein will all be removed from the infobox regardless of the outcome of this RFC. It is therefore pointless. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 14:50, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then, in that, case, my humble opinion brings me to accept all of your arguments, but it doesn't seems like many of you are interested in reading my stances. I really respect all of you and how you conduct yourselves here, so please do think about reforming how this page, and others like it, function. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 02:42, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin:. Yuri, please stop keeping a running tally of opinions. It's disruptive and makes it look like a popularity contest, which we have explained it is absolutely not. We are not taking this to a vote. We're soliciting reasoned opinions to create a consensus. Both sides have made cogent points and when we reach consensus, I will respect and do my part to enforce it. To be brutally honest with you, I've been a political consultant and I can guarantee Evan McMullin and Darrell Castle will not win the election. They won't swing the election one way or another unless decisive states come down to hundreds or tens of votes. If it were up to me, I'd have Clinton and Trump in the top of the infobox, Johnson and Stein in the bottom and nobody else there. However, the closest thing we have to a consensus includes Castle and McMullin being included on virtue of their write-in access and their presence there hurts nobody.--Guiletheme (talk) 07:52, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree on that part, Guillemme. I'm very doubtful that Castle will get even a thousand votes, perhaps just a hundred or two, from actually informed people who actually want to vote for him (what I mean is that they understand his positions, researched him, at least somewhat agree with him, etc.), rather than just randomly selecting one at the ballot box or making a 'protest' vote without even knowing who their vote will go to. I do think, however, they'll be especially unlikely to tip the states. Firstly, in places where he, or the slightly more popular McMullin, are eligible to receive votes (even with write-ins included, which are states where their count will very possibly be zero), only represents about 30 percent of America's population when you count not just filing for it, but also the submission of a slate of electors. So it's virtually impossible for them to do anything. And, of course, I see what you're saying about a 2012 consensus, but firstly that wasn't really a consensus, as Sparkie82 pointed out, secondly it's outdated (four years ago), thirdly I don't think it's the right idea, as do many (that's just my opinion though), fourthly it's been refuted by this thread, proving that the majority of us want Castle and McMullin removed (although I completely agree with those of you, who have told Yuri to stop counting 'votes', and . But from what I can see this certainly does not represent any real popular support – or otherwise – for whatever "consensus" you've been bringing up, and so, in the short term, until we reach a real agreement (which may be [[2]], of course) there is absolutely no reason why we should be keeping them on the article. As not-very-well-constructed-or-formed an idea as it was for Yuri to turn the discussion he thankfully started into a plebiscite of sorts, it certainly shows that the majority (not that that's the standard, but supporters of inclusion have less than half) here would not want them in the infobox. And I think it should be changed to reflect that, because I think that everyone who has voiced their thoughts this past week here have all had good arguments, and ideas as to how they support them and why (thanks Shumogul for helping) on both sides. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 02:42, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't keep The 2012≥ election page has Obama and Romney only, and that's how most of them are. Nader isn't included in 2000, in spite of his real impact. Why include people who aren't on enough ballots for 270 EV? They're not gonna get the write ins in the states that allow it. I am sure Stein will be removed after the election, and Johnson probably will too. Why keep McMullin and Castle now? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:49, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's because we have one criteria for pre-election inclusion and one for post-election inclusion. The post-election inclusion currently is to keep candidates that get at least 5% of the popular vote and/or 1 pledged electoral vote. The pre-election inclusion does not need to match the post-election inclusion (in fact it didn't match in 2012). Saying we should keep candidates off the infobox because you speculate that they will be removed after the election goes against WP:Speculation. That's why including all candidates in the infobox that can theoretically win 270+ Electoral Votes seems less arbitrary and less subjective. The only problem I can think of with including write-in status for the inclusion criteria is the possibility of the infobox being overcrowded. So far that doesn't seem to be an issue though. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 20:00, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As I've seen mentioned above, this whole RfC doesn't matter much anyway, because it'll close a few days before the election, after which point all third party candidates except for Johnson (if they pull in the votes current polling suggests) will be removed. So I generally look at this clutter and think, what's the point? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:15, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - This really is no big deal, they each now have a way to 270 votes so why not include them? Everyone except possibly Johnson is going to be deleted anyways per the 5% consensus mark. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:53, 4 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude write-in candidates - Castle and other write-in candidates are not currently in the infobox because of a consensus reached at [3] (Number of candidates in the infobox). The reason given at that consensus and at other discussions since then is that it is too easy to get write-in status -- all it takes in most cases is to file a form. To get on the ballot, however, generally requires nominating signatures and is a better gauge of notablity/weight. Sparkie82 (t•c)10:13, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do not keep They don't have a chance of winning, and unlike Johnson and Stein, they don't even have a chance of affecting which major party candidate wins. Putting footnote candidates in the infobox is confusing to the many users of Wikipedia who are almost entirely ignorant of American politics. Our criteria for inclusion in the infobox should be based on polling, not on ballot access. Earthscent (talk) 12:10, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Castle and other write-ins are currently not in the infobox because that Aug 23 proposal to add Castle was challenged (reverted) at 736056459 and has been challenged continually since then. Sparkie82 (t•c)03:22, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong about that. Castle and McMullin are in the infobox, and have been for a week. I don't want them there, but I can't understand why you keep to say that. And I don't think those blurry and unclear photos of Castle and his running mate look that good, either. He shouldn't be on there, as there is no source saying anything about Mindy Finn being McMullin's VP pick. Just doesn't seem right to me. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Earthscent: In a close election *any* candidate can affect the outcome. Basing the criteria on polling is very arbitrary and can be inaccurate since sometimes polls get things wrong e.g. Bernie won Michigan even though the polls predicted a Hillary landslide. In fact, your argument is not very popular on this talk page as most people either fall in the ballot access criteria or ballot & write-in access criteria camps. Many Americans don't even know the names of the Vice-presidential candidates. Nonetheless, Wikipedia articles are meant to inform people about stuff they don't no, not reflect the ignorance of the readers. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:32, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Prcc27: I'm not saying to exclude them from the article entirely, just the infobox. Putting them there gives them undue weight. If we include McMullin and Castle in the infobox we ought to have a picture every single third-party and independent candidate, including write-in candidates. Our infobox should have dozens of pictures in it. These two are no more important than any of the others.Earthscent (talk) 11:56, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Earthscent: While you do have a point about us possibly giving undue weight by including Castle and McMullin, I disagree with the last sentence you made in that paragraph. Being able to theoretically win a majority of electoral votes makes you way more important than someone that does not have that theoretical chance. Including anyone in the infobox that does not have a theoretical chance of winning 270 electoral votes would unquestionably violate WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. Winning a majority of electoral votes is the most common way to be elected President of the United States. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 15:53, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Prcc27: Is either Castle or McMullin polling enough in a single state to possibly tip the outcome? I don't think so. (But if I'm wrong please let me know). Polling is a much better criteria than ballot access. Earthscent (talk) 22:10, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Earthscent: Bush won Florida and thus the presidential election by just over 500 votes and 8 third party candidates (including those without 270+ EV ballot access or even 270+ ballot/write-in access) in Florida got more than 500 votes. Thus they arguably had an effect on the outcome of the 2000 election. It doesn't take that much to tip a swing state and thus the presidential election from one side to the other. Wikipedia maintains a neutral point of view whereas polling agencies do not which is why they pick and choose which candidates to poll. If polling is better criteria than ballot access then why would we include Stein or even Johnson when they aren't even polling high enough to be projected to win at least 1 electoral college vote? Wikipedia is not a crystal ball which is why your proposal to use polling as criteria for inclusion hasn't gained that much popularity. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Earthscent:"Is either Castle or McMullin polling enough in a single state to possibly tip the outcome? I don't think so. (But if I'm wrong please let me know)." In case you haven't been following this RfC and/or the statewide polls- McMullin is currently polling within the margin of error in Utah. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 09:42, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do not keep most have already been said. I am all for having more than two major parties candidates in the infobox even though it has never happened that any other have become president. But only those who have their name on enough ballot so they will win. With the interesting and growing problem of ballot access this show a certain importance and organization, simply adding write-inn oppertunities does not. Jack Bornholm (talk) 15:06, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude write-in candidates: only those with ballot access should be included. Technically anyone can be a write-in candidate, if people wanted they could vote for me as a write in and I'm not 35 or even an American. If Castle and McMullin are included then I should be placed in the less than 270 electoral votes section. Ebonelm (talk) 15:58, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is off base as we are talking about candidates that achieved MORE than 270 EVs through both normal, and write in means. As JC points out below, this isn't an easy thing to do. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 18:41, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from Castle only has 207 potential electoral votes with ballot access and McMullin only 84. The point is that the established consensus has been the need to have ballot access to 270 electoral votes and neither of these candidates have this. Castle and McMullin shouldn't even be in the infobox while this discussion is taking place as they do not meet the current consensus. It is only a small group of editors who have repeatedly added them that has resulted in this bizaare situation where anyone who tries to revert to the established consensus is told they are violating consensus. Ebonelm (talk) 20:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If consensus was established, we wouldn't be having this discussion. There are two sides: candidates must have ballot access to 270 electoral votes versus candidates must have ballot or write-in access to 270 electoral votes. When did the former suddenly become established consensus and don't bring up 2012, because that was 2012. Precedents can be overturned. JC·Talk·Contributions20:44, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The reason why Castle and other write-ins are not currently in the infobox is because the consensus has been, since 2012, to include candidates who are on the ballot to 270 EV, not write-ins. A proposal was made on Aug 23 to add Castle and it was challenged (reverted) at 736056459 and we've been discussing it since then. Sparkie82 (t•c)03:15, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Sparkie82: If it's so easy to get write-in status, why is it that there are only two people who have clinched access to 270 electoral votes without ballot access? The first person that is under 270 electoral votes is Kotlikoff with access to 218 electoral votes. When you say that consensus has been against including them, you are wrong, because we are in a heated debate today. JC·Talk·Contributions18:38, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@JCRules: I agree, there is no consensus here to change the previous criteria from 2012, which states that only candidates who are on the ballot to 270 EV's are included. Sparkie82 (t•c)03:18, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't Keep - Remove Castle, Macmullin and write-ins Ballot access qualification is over except for several lawsuits which are not likely to change any ballots. Having candidiates without access to 270 electoral votes in the infobox is just waste of time, as they will be removed after the election anyway. (Undue weight.) KingAntenor (talk) 20:39, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, both candidates do have access to 270 electoral votes (through ballot access and write-in access). "They will be removed after the election anyway" isn't an example of WP:UNDUE WEIGHT- it's an example of WP:SPECULATION. I could speculate that Jill Stein or even Gary Johnson will be removed after the election so why not remove those two while we are at it? Prcc27🌍 (talk) 20:54, 5 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
KnowledgeKid87 puts it exactly right: I am telling you now, firmly, to stop. As I have told you many times already, it is not a Wikipedia policy to count votes, especially on a talk page (anywhere, in fact). In addition, you've miscounted quite a few, which adds to the inaccuracy and simple illegitimacy about this. I understand that you might not yet be fully acquainted with the rules so far, and I am woefully unequipped, as well. But when multiple experienced role models tell you why you shouldn't be acting in this way, I would highly encourage you to listen. I very much value your contributions, and those of everyone in this community, so it would be very unfortunate if you had to lose your editing rights. This is my last time telling you to do this – I don't want to warn you again, or lodging a complaint about you. Again: please stop doing this. Thank you for your respect. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 02:42, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I do think we should keep both candidates. Even though they can only win with write-in votes, it's still mathematically possible for them to win. Also, consensus from 2012 stated that "The candidates will appear on enough state ballots [to have a mathematical possibility] to actually win the election (270 electoral votes)". To add on, Wikipedia should be a reference for the public or those interested in the topic, thus should be impartial. If only the 'major' candidates are included, viewers wouldn't get the complete picture of the candidates available and it would seem like Wikipedia already predicted loss for the 2 candidates even before the election. Thus, I do support keeping them in the infobox until after the election and I don't see why they shouldn't be if Johnson and Stein is there. ~ Appleseed w (talk) 12:54, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, most of the argument against what you're saying is that Libs and Greens has 270 without write-ins, while Castle and McMullin would bead them. That's where the uncertainty lies, and as you can clearly see – a lot of heated debate over it. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 02:42, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong don't keep - The infobox looks ridiculous right now. Castle and Macmullin aren't featured in polls like Johnson and Stein, even if they have access to 270 electoral votes (only by write-in -.-) that makes them even more unlikely to win. Ghoul flesh • talk21:27, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, both candidates have been featured in polls- just not as many polls as Johnson, Stein, Trump, and Clinton. Johnson and Stein have been featured in significantly less polls than Clinton and Trump so should we remove Johnson and Stein from the infobox as well? Moreover, Johnson being featured in significantly less polls hasn't stopped him from appearing in the same row in the infobox as Clinton and Trump. There is already consensus on this talk page not to use polls as criteria for inclusion. And appearing in more polls doesn't necessarily increase your chances of winning like you say it does. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 21:56, 6 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, with this argument, one can also say that Johnson and Stein might as well be removed too since none of them qualifies for the debates (similar argument to polls). In my opinion, I still think that those who has a mathematical chance of winning the presidency should be included as Wikipedia should be impartial and I do not see any harm in keeping all 4 of them. ~ Appleseed w (talk) 04:16, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly do want to keep the four candidates who actually have 270 votes – not Castle and McMullin! If you're talking about the debates, that would be a good criteria – the candidates who make the CPD-sanctioned ones should have the necessary support to get in the top row on the article, while the candidates who have gotten into the minor "Free, Fair, and Equal" ones (which I hadn't ever heard of but have existed on this site for an eternity) would be places in the second row. Now the others who I don't know of write-ins I studiously oppose – but they will not be in even those four-party debates like last year, according to sites added on their website, so if they're in – which they probably won't be – they'd just have to be put in the second row. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Can I kindly ask, that, you give a reason for it? In my opinion, anything that's sensible, true, not overly offensive, etc. is a valid argument. I'd like to hear your ideas on this. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 02:42, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Do not keep - The infobox looking ridiculous IS a valid argument, in the sense that if you are going to include McMullin, you need to have a photograph of him. There is a photo of Castle. The way it looks now, at first glance, I thought there was a formatting error. If McMullin is so obscure that no one who contributes to Wikipedia can even find a photograph of him, e.g. from his campaign manager, then I find it absurd to include him as a presidential candidate. I don't know anything about Castle, but he has a decent separate Wiki bio article and a photograph. If I had to keep one, it would be Castle. One more point to consider: If you do NOT keep Castle and McMullin, which is how my RFC should be counted here, as DO NOT KEEP McMullin and Castle (and by Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin's running total, which doesn't bother me), then Jill Stein should get moved up to the top row with the other three. I don't like to see Hillary, Trump and the Libertarian candidate guy together on top, and Jill Stein on her own, on the bottom. With four candidates, there would be enough room to fit all four of them in one row in the infobox. Someone above, I think it it was Prcc27🌍, rhetorically asked whether Stein or Johnson should even be included. Jill Stein and Gary Johnson are third-party candidates that receive mainstream press coverage, have national name recognition (whether positive or negative isn't the point, rather, the fact that they are interviewed on television and discussed widely), and definitely are above the radar online, e.g. on Twitter and reddit. reddit is no great arbiter of notability, but Twitter mentions and trends and visibility IS monitored and used for indications of significance. Both are included in polls, but some of the prior comments says that should not be considered, although the fact is that there are four and only four candidates who show up in the polls. Given that we are so close to the election now, and no one can even find a photo of McMullin for his WP bio article or here, I think it is needlessly confusing to include him in the info box. Castle has a photo but none of the other attributes that I mentioned with respect to Jill Stein and Gary Johnson, so I think it causes confusion to include him in the infobox. Just please, please don't make the info box a 2x2 grid for the photos, with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump on top, then Jill Stein and Gary Johnson below, if at all possible.--FeralOink (talk) 12:30, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@FeralOink: Finding a photo for McMullin is a separate issue being covered in a separate section of this talk page. Let's please focus on the issue this RfC is addressing i.e. inclusion criteria. FYI, the current consensus is to only reserve the top row for candidates with ballot access in 50 states & D.C. So if the other two candidates are removed Jill Stein will remain in the second row and Gary Johnson would likely remain in the first row. Once again, the claim that McMullin and Castle don't show up in the polls is false. There have been polls that include those candidates. The infobox is supposed to inform the readers, not just tell them what they already know. Including candidates in the infobox that many Americans haven't heard of isn't such a bad idea since infoboxes are a good way to give a brief overview of the the information in the article. Yes WP:UNDUE WEIGHT is an issue, but since Castle and McMullin have a theoretical path to 270+ EVs, have been included in polls, and have been invited to a debate I'd say including them in the infobox doesn't violate that policy. In fact, not including them in the infobox could violate WP:NPOV since excluding them would imply that they don't have a reasonable chance at winning. It's not up to Wikipedia to make this assumption per WP:CRYSTAL. So for now I'm going to have to say that we should keep Castle and McMullin in the infobox. For the record I also do not have a problem with Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin's running total. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There wasn't really a consensus for that, and if I'm right, it was revoked. I don't think that Gary Johnson should be in top row (again, just my opinion). And you always keep talking about how they've been included in polls, but I couldn't find any! There have been thousands of polls this cycle, I'm not exaggerating, that have featured Johnson and Stein. All of the major pollsters do it, and even all of the usually recognized ones, more than 80% of the time talks about both of them. Whereas none of the major pollsters (CNN, NBC, ABC/WP, Fox, etc.) have ever mentioned either Castle or McMullin in them, and none of the ones I have ever looked at do, either. It just goes against our role of undue weight. When you say it should be an overview of the election, it's completely false, because whether you look on our own Wikipedia page, or online in the media articles, which is where most people get their information from – television, newspaper, radio, etc – it doesn't talk about either candidate at all, in much detail, and I've read hundreds upon hundreds of articles – very likely, thousands – that at least talk about Johnson's or Stein's candidacies. On the other hand, I've gone to maybe only about ten or perhaps less about McMullin, all in the duration of two or three days. Even more, I haven't come across a single one about Castle, rated more highly, and the one time I found him, I had to search him up in order to get some feature form like the 'Atlantic' or something like that. And, also, since when have those two been "have been invited to a debate," as you say? I thought the site specifically gave only Johnson and Stein (and the other two major ones as well, of course). And I just really don't see how their removal would violate any other guidelines here, either, now. So there really isn't any reason why that should continuously happen. Also, I didn't really have any grudge against Yuri's "vote-counting" either, but since so many established authorities oppose it and feel it doesn't go well with Wikipedia, I'd just recommend against it. It's actually helpful, though, and think it at least gives a picture of this situation, and as to how much support we're getting for Castle and McMullin here. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 16:16, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
On [page you mention] there are more than a hundred polls that include Johnson and Stein, while only three include McMullin, two others "Independent", and none Darrell Castle or the "Constitution Party".
Okay, your point is well taken about this RfC topic being inclusion criteria, and also that it has already been established who will appear in the top row and the bottom row, based on ballot access and so forth described above by Prcc27 and others. I still object to leaving the infobox as it is now, without a photo for McMullin, because it is confusing. Put something in place of his photo if you can't find one, but please don't have the information about McMullin crammed in next to Castle, making it not immediately apparent that they are in fact two separate individuals, not one with a really long name or party or description. Yes, upon closer examination, it becomes clear that McMullin is actually a separate candidate, but having an infobox that is asymmetric and incomplete is not up to our standards on articles. This is an important article, and we should do our best here. I will withdraw my prior "Do Not Keep". I am not advocating for or against inclusion of one or both of McMullin and/or Castle. I do feel strongly that someone MUST make that infobox be at an acceptable level of clarity for readers, and maintain consistency with our WP infoboxes in general. My motivation for initial comment on this RfC was to provide corroboration in response to Ghoul Flesh's observation that the infobox looks ridiculous, so I don't think I am totally not constructive in having commented. The infobox currently looks amateurish and unencyclopedic. It could even be misinterpreted as vandalism, as that could be an initial reaction to seeing photos with proper aligned captions for five of six candidates, yet a blank space for the sixth one (McMullin). There, I've expressed myself, and will not interfere further, as I don't want my peripheral concern to distract from the quite important goal of reaching a consensus soon, certainly before the election!--FeralOink (talk) 09:09, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll stop. Quite a few of you have asked me to stop counting "votes" in this consensus. I was just trying to show how many people were on this side, and for the other. I'm still not totally sure why you guys are saying what I'm doing is not appropriate for the consensus, though. But, in a democracy, the majority rules, and the majority has told me to be quiet. (Still need a bit more clarification on why what I was doing was wrong, though.) Thank-you for taking the time to read this. Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin (talk) 22:33, 7 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it's okay. He's apologized. And he wasn't referring to Wikipedia as a democracy, though you are certainly right that this isn't the place to count votes. I do think, however, that as long as it wasn't too repetitive, disruptive, or distracting, or really harmed the editing environment here, it wasn't all that bad an idea. There were just a lot of pleasure over it, and Yuri didn't acknowledge that until now. Again, thanks for following the wishes of the many users who have disapproved of your actions, it's responsible and helpful on your part. I don't know that much about the rules here, though, so I can't help much. But definitely someone who has been here for a time can tell you. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 00:55, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Since we're no closer to reaching a consensus, I'll propose one of my own. Since every Presidential election is different and we pretty much have Clinton, Trump and Johnson with full ballot access in the top three, Stein with 480 leading off the second row followed by Castle and McMullin being included on virtue of write-in access, I move that the infobox stay as is. I believe it is fair because the three candidates with full ballot access are on the top three positions of the infobox according to previous election results from 2012, the one with 270+ ballot access leads off the second-tier of the infobox and the other two who can theoretically win through write-ins round out the field. Remember, this will change after the election. It's not our job to determine who can or cannot win before the election for eligible candidates, since I can guarantee one major-party candidate will lose, seeing how both rabid Clinton supporters and rabid Trump supporters will lay down their arms on November 9th because their candidate either won or lost (barring a repeat of 2000.) I am now convinced through the arguments above that a candidate is at least serious enough if they have a path to 270 through write-ins and a slate of electors. Castle and McMullin are at running serious campaigns in terms of policy and getting access and neither of them are perennial or frivolous candidates, such as Deez Nuts, whose inclusion I would definitely challenge even if he managed to get 270+ write-in access due to his ineligibility (age) and his fake name. Once again, I have no dog in the Castle/McMullin fight, I'm voting for a major candidate who I feel is in their appropriate place in the infobox. Can we reach this as a compromise knowing that the infobox will change post-election and will most likely only include Clinton and Trump, barring Johnson, the most likely of the rest, or one of the other three getting 5% or > and/or an electoral vote?--Guiletheme (talk) 06:45, 8 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm really sorry, but this is a resolution that I would have to oppose. It doesn't seem neutral at all to just say that Castle and McMullin be left in the infobox, when a clear majority (though, of course, that isn't a threshold – but it's far from a consensus, as many of the write-in proponents say) oppose their inclusion. As I have said, and a few others have supported, there are many reasons why it should be split into two rows, with Clinton/Trump in the first (qualified, presumably, for all 3 of the most likely presidential debates), Johnson/Stein in the second (the other candidates who have 270, and in fact far more, just through ballot access and without needing write-ins), and definitely Castle/possibly McMullin in any potential case involving write-in candidates being included in the third row (just look at any of my above comments regarding how candidates in the infobox should be placed. And, again, if Castle an McMullin are indeed removed, they would have to be taken off of the major candidates section, the conventions sections, etc. But, no grudges about it, if they are in the infobox, they should be included in all the above sections, and vice versa. So as much as I would respect any decision on your parts or a consensus regarding inclusion prior to this election, this resolution is, in essence, widely opposed, and I am one of those who have contributed the most to that idea, and results of an official RfC.
Agreed. The election season ends in exactly a month from now (or less in a month, depending on your timezone) and we should be forming a consensus on post-election criteria, which is currently: a candidate must receive at least five percent of the national popular vote or receive at least one electoral vote. Up to this point, nobody has challenged the post-election criteria. JC·Talk·Contributions01:41, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How many times do they have to appear in national polls for it to be considered "routinely"? Whatever number you come up with is very arbitrary. 270 EVs is not an arbitrary number which is why we should either use ballot access or ballot access/write-in access as criteria. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 11:55, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
To add to Prcc27's comments, let's take Russia for example. The government runs the polls and can include/exclude candidates and fix the numbers. When Russia conducts its "elections", would you decide by the polls who would be included in the infobox? JC·Talk·Contributions16:19, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the problem is that we don't live in Russia, and, by all accounts, we have free and fair elections where votes are counted legally and properly (at least it's what we have to assume, in case anyone else disagrees with even that). The major news corporations aren't really owned by, or beholden to, the government, and when Castle or McMullin were included, they were from minor advocacy groups (and got very low support, compared to Johnson and Stein). 198.84.229.179 (talk) 20:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, please stop adding write-in candidates to the infobox. A neutral administrator has already determined that there is no consensus to add write-in candidates to the infobox. See: [4]Sparkie82 (t•c)18:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
They said that your edit seemed (their emphasis) to have consensus. The only discussion pertaining to write-ins with a clear (and unanimous at that) consensus is the one in August which actually favors including the write-ins with access to a majority of electoral votes. All the other discussions since then have been very divided including this one. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:03, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
P.S. it's a little hypocritical of you to continue to revert the infobox after you reported me for supposedly edit warring. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:08, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep for numerous reasons. Castle and McMullin have the ability to win the election, as they have access to over 270 votes. Whether they can/will shape the election is irrelevant, and we should follow WP:CRYSTAL. Also, they have been invited to the Free & Equal Elections Foundation along with the Trump, Clinton, Johnson, and Stein. In addition to this, there is no reason to remove them from the infobox. Leaving them in the infobox will inform voters more about the candidates in the election, that there are two more choices on the ballot in many states. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:51, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I just asked for full protection of the page, the edit warring isn't helping anyone as it appears this issue needs to be addressed/closed soon. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:51, 9 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Remove The arguments for inclusion are hard to follow and fleeting. These candidates barely meet WP:NOTABILITY, let alone infobox inclusion. Only Gary Johnson and HRC/DT are polling above 5% nationally. I agree that the infobox looks ridiculous. Keep Trump, Clinton, Johnson and Stein only. Remove all others. KingAntenor (talk) 07:58, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@KingAntenor:Redundant: You have already bolded "do not keep" a few days ago. While discussion is helpful, bolding your opinion twice is very unnecessary and it could make it seem like the "remove" camp has more supporters than it really does. Barely meeting WP:NOTABILITY still counts as meeting WP:NOTABILITY. Show me a Wikipedia policy on infoboxes that says these candidates cannot be included. Funny how you bring up 5% national polling but argue that Stein should remain even though she (along with Castle and McMullin) average below 5%. You haven't even proposed any criteria for which candidates should be included (unless you think Stein should also be removed). Prcc27🌍 (talk) 14:07, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Prcc here, above you did place in bold "Don't Keep - Remove Castle, Macmullin and write-ins". Giving your opinion in bold twice on the matter is generally frowned upon here on Wikipedia. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 14:38, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus seems to be to remove Castle and Macmullin since they receive little to no media coverage and/or support per above. I did not realize I had already voted. I would have thought this discussion would be over by now. People will attempt to add the lesser candidates until election day regardless. KingAntenor (talk) 17:54, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@KingAntenor: You must have selective attention, because there is no consensus. Half says remove, half says keep. Saying that Castle and McMullin shouldn't be included because of "little to no media coverage" is not a valid point, because that is arbitrary. Go to Google News and you will find that Politico, CNN, and the Los Angeles Times, among many other sources have covered McMullin. JC·Talk·Contributions18:10, 10 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, JC, that was only for a few days, when McMullin was in the news. I still don't know why they did it, but you certainly won't find Castle on any major news networks, or, otherwise, some news networks. In the meantime, while this dispute is being resolved by the lead editors, I'm of the opinion that McMullin and Castle should be removed, if only temporarily. Their inclusion, although acceptable the first time in, was immediately objected to, and it's been a contentious issue – ever since then. And since you mentioned it, the portion who want them removed is a majority of the editors here (or at least it was a few days ago, although that doesn't really mean much). Also, Prcc27, I think your views are a bit misleading, as Castle isn't in any polls of the states included in the Wikipedia page you continue to reference. And only two pollsters ever included McMullin nationally, both within a week of each other. 198.84.229.179 (talk) 02:21, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I intended to respond to the user @JC earlier but my link was broken. It was essentially his same link but replaced with the Constitution nominee. Darrell Castle has not been covered by Politico, CNN, or the Los Angeles Times. (At least not broadly, and certainly not in polls.) He has received attention in sources such as Deseret News, which is owned by the Mormon Church, and also this post in May from the Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judy-frankel/trump-hillary-haters-take_b_10110720.html But other than that I know of exactly two polls he has ever been in (1-2% at best), usually included w/ Macmullin or other obscure figures. I affirm that he should be removed due to WP:UNDUEWEIGHT. KingAntenor (talk) 07:23, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: This discussion will likely not be resolved before election day, so it relates more to unknown candidates and parties in the 2020 election cycle. Please consider what criteria should hold beyond the given names and particular circumstances for the current election. Bcharles (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Don't keep: The 270 electoral vote threshold for ballot lines obtained is a standard that demonstrates campaign strength and potential. The inclusion of write-in states, masks the lack of support and organization sufficient to achieve ballots for half of voters. The pretense that one could win a state with write-in votes, in spite of the inability to gain that ballot line, is sophistry. Bcharles (talk) 02:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Alaska is represented by a single congressional district. That analogy could hold in 2008 when castle had ballot lines for 49% of the electoral vote, he would have needed to win all states that he was on the ballot and any small state by write-in. This year he would need to win states representing 63 electoral votes by write-in, with no signs of broad support, funding, or organization. That is not a remotely plausible scenario. McMullin is even farther afield. Bcharles (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What does Alaska being represented by a single congressional district have to do with anything? All senate elections are statewide elections. I hate to repeat myself over and over but we aren't supposed to make decisions based on speculation per Wikipedia policy. You keep speculating that these candidates won't win the election, but that's your point of view and we're supposed to edit articles in a neutral way. If we used "signs of broad support, funding, (and) organization" as criteria for inclusion then Stein and/or Johnson would possibly fail this requirement also. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Update: for everyone arguing we should use polling as criteria for inclusion I would just like to point out that McMullin is the *only* third party candidate polling within the margin of error in a state. So McMullin is more likely to win the presidential election than Stein and Johnson according to polling. I'm not saying we should use polling as criteria, but this refutes the argument that McMullin isn't polling high enough. If McMullin does in fact win Utah then he will also be included in the infobox after the election per the current consensus on post-election inclusion criteria. This proves how silly everyone is for saying "McMullin should be removed now since he is going to be removed after the election anyways." Well, we don't know that, and even if we did it's not up to us to speculate. And for everyone saying he hasn't received enough coverage from the reliable sources... him polling this high in Utah has given him more news coverage than he had before. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 16:40, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A consensus notice should not be added to the talk page until after this RfC is resolved. We should refrain from adding a consensus notice that links to a discussion that took place on a separate article. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 18:31, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Remove. The infobox looks ridiculous and is totally inconsistent with past election articles. (I'm not watching this page so please ping me if you want my attention.) --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:31, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@DrFleischman: Actually, the infobox is very consistent with past election articles. In past election articles there were 2 separate inclusion criteria: one for before the election and one for after the election. This was probably done in order to avoid violating WP:CRYSTAL. In 2012 before election day, Virgil Goode was included in the infobox even though he could only theoretically get 270+ EVs with the help of write-ins (Castle and McMullin are in the same situation). You can go through the article's history to see who was included in the infobox before the election. Castle and McMullin would have been included in the 2012 infobox since they would have met the pre-election criteria. The current consensus for post-election inclusion is getting at least 5% of the national popular vote or at least 1 pledged electoral college vote. Although polls are not entirely accurate, according to polling Johnson has a good chance of meeting this criteria by getting 5%+ popular votes and McMullin (a candidate you support removing) could also meet this criteria for post-election inclusion if he wins Utah (he is polling within the margin of error in the most recent Utah poll). Why should McMullin be excluded and Stein included when McMullin is more likely (according to polling) to be in the infobox after election day than Stein is? Saying the infobox looks ridiculous is an I don't like it argument. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 22:53, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for pinging me. I'm not going to do the research myself, but if you can produce evidence that we're using the same criteria that we did in 2012 (with diffs and/or links to 2012 consensus) then that will go a long way toward convincing me. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:40, 12 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@DrFleischman: As you will see in this discussion (please read all the subsections as well), there was a consensus to include all candidates with a theoretical chance of obtaining 270+ EVs and users in that discussion agreed to include Virgil Goode in the infobox. You'll also see the post-election criteria discussed as well. Here is the article in Nov. 2012. Notice that Virgil Goode and Rocky Anderson were included in the infobox. Scroll down to the "Major third parties" section and you'll see that both Goode and Anderson had less than 270 EV ballot access but had 270+ EV access when you include write-in access. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 00:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions in 2012, as well as edits to remove Goode and Anderson, which were reverted, show that there was not consensus to include candidates based on write-in votes. Bcharles (talk) 22:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following notice is at the top of this talk page, but an editor keeps removing it, so I am adding it here because it is pertinent to this discussion:
Infobox inclusion: It has been agreed by previous consensus from the article United States presidential election, 2012 that US presidential election articles will use the following criteria for inclusion of candidates in the infobox: The candidates will appear on enough state ballots [to have a mathematical possibility] to actually win the election (270 electoral votes) Done
Write-ins (including Castle and McMullin) are not currently in the infobox. The most recent attempts to add write-in candidates started with an attempt to add Castle to the infobox during a discussion on Aug 23 at 735891756, which was challenged (reverted) at 736056459. The addition of Castle and other write-ins have been proposed/challenged/discussed ever since. Since the addition of write-ins to the infobox is challenged, they should not be reinstated (re-added) to the infobox. If you see them there, just remove them. Sparkie82 (t•c)09:31, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A consensus on a related article isn't necessarily applicable on this article. However, many people in that discussion actually supported including candidates with a mathematical chance of winning (which is evident with how many supported including Virgil Goode). Your consensus notice is very unnecessary and redundant. A link to the discussion you are referring to has already been included in this RfC many times. And you need to stop picking and choosing which consensus discussion to bring up. The most recent consensus discussion was the unanimous decision to include write-in access for inclusion criteria. So you should stop POV pushing by either including the unanimous discussion from August in your consensus notice or don't include a consensus notice at all. Calling me an "ass" for removing your POV-pushed consensus notice is a violation of WP:CIVIL. Your disruptive behavior is getting really irritating to say the least. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 09:59, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The two day discussion in August of this year was not a "consensus", which requires notifying editors of the discussion and allowing time (usually 30 days) for varied positions to be expressed and addressed. There has not been a formal consensus process on this issue before now, but a consensus on one article would hold for related articles. Bcharles (talk) 22:00, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There is no official procedure for achieving consensus because Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. Notifying editors of a discussion is only done when consensus isn't clear, but at the time consensus was very obvious. It is quite clear that consensus was achieved in August per WP:CONACHIEVE: "Ideally, (consensus) arrives with an absence of objections". There were no objections made on the talk page for several days. Also, the consensus in 2012 was to include write-in access as inclusion criteria. When an edit like Virgil Goode being included in the infobox remains on the article for several months without being disputed on the talk page, that edit has consensus per WP:EDITCONSENSUS. So if consensuses on other articles are in fact binding on related articles then that means the current consensus is to include Castle and McMullin per what we did in 2012. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 23:05, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - it does not seem WP:OFFTOPIC and at the moment not exceeding due WP:WEIGHT too much by including. Otherwise --- First, this is in advance of the event so the perspective may shift later and ... for now I'll just prefer to err on the side of being encyclopedic bit too much info and bit too inclusive rather than too short. Second, precedent here that Ross Perot appears in United States presidential election, 1996, and further back in United States presidential election, 1912 individuals are included at small percentages. Third - possible significance to the story as in if McMullin takes Utah, or if Florida is so close that the other party candidates make the difference, as Ralph Nader did in 2000. Markbassett (talk) 23:27, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Charlesaaronthompson: Please keep in mind that this is not a vote (see WP:VOTE). Polling is not a fair way to decide whether candidates should be in the infobox because the pollsters choose not to include the other candidates, only giving the people answering these polls only four choices, which is not fair at all. A few months ago, Gary Johnson and Jill Stein were not even included in the polls that you speak of, but were brought in because of the coverage that they were getting. However, they should remain in the infobox until the election because it was already decided in this discussion that, if a candidate achieved ballot or write-in access to 270 electoral votes, such a candidate shall remain, and Darrell Castle and Evan McMullin have already crossed the threshold. JC·Talk·Contributions07:06, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@JCRules: Does that mean we have to include all other candidates then? That would really clutter up the infobox, IMO. I only said I wanted to remove Darrell Castle and Evan McMullin because only having write-in access to 270 electoral votes is not a good indicator of the viability of a presidential candidate. Common sense says that none of the four third-party or independent candidates currently listed in the infobox will in all likelihood win any state's Electoral College votes in 2016, because no third-party or independent candidate has won any electoral votes since 1968. My opinion is to only include candidates who will receive electoral votes. Unless McMullin wins Utah's six (6) electoral votes (or Castle wins any state's electoral votes), there is no compelling reason to list either candidate in the infobox of the main article. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 07:23, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Charlesaaronthompson: No, there are only six candidates that have ballot or write-in access to at least 270 electoral votes, so there shall only be six candidates in the infobox and others shall be added if they cross the threshold. By the way, Lisa Murkowski is one example of a candidate that was elected to the U.S. Senate after running a write-in campaign, so it is arbitrary to assume what "is not a good indicator of the viability of a presidential candidate." Taking WP:SPECULATION into account, it is unfair to presume that third-party and independent candidates will not receive an electoral vote. Current consensus for post-election criteria for inclusion in the infobox is that a candidate must receive at least five percent of the national popular vote or at least one electoral vote, and neither you nor I have results of the November 8 election. JC·Talk·Contributions07:34, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@JCRules: BTW, those polls I listed are a reliable indicator of the overall level of national support each candidate enjoys. Also, it is not unfair to presume that third-party and independent candidates will not receive any electoral votes, because recently past elections have consistently demonstrated that third-party and independent candidates won't receive any electoral votes. History is a pretty reliable indicator of how the vote will turn out on November 8 and how it will be tallied afterwards. So, according to your logic, the only third-party candidate who should be listed in the infobox then is Gary Johnson, because he's the only one who is currently polling higher than five (5) percent right now (Jill Stein is at about 2.2 percent, so I say remove her from the infobox, because she is currently failing to poll higher than 5 percent.) Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 07:45, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Charlesaaronthompson: First of all, they are only given four options in those polls and are not allowed any other options. With regard to "[my] logic," I said "post-election criteria for inclusion in the infobox." Post-election. This is the month before the election, and neither you nor I have the final results of the election. If we were back in time during the Iowa caucus and took the media's word for it that Donald Trump would fail, would we snub Donald Trump? The analogy is, nobody knows the end result. A third-party candidate could be the first in decades to win an electoral vote, but we shouldn't remove them on the notion that they will not out of pure speculation. JC·Talk·Contributions07:55, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Just to let everyone know, I have placed Evan McMullin ahead of Darrell Castle because of ballot and write-in access totals. McMullin has access to 465 electoral votes while Castle has 409 electoral votes. JC·Talk·Contributions20:11, 15 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
McMullin's total is only that high if you include anticipated states. Read the source carefully. I have revised his total to reflect that. Bcharles (talk) 18:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Is this page about the US presidential elections? Is it about the likely winners? Is it a page that speculates, like news media do, about the 'major' candidates to the the exclusion of candidates who, conventional wisdom says, cannot possibly win or even influence the outcome? The page is entitled to suggest it is about the presidential election, not a sub-set of it. That suggests to me even if the field included 50 candidates with little chance of winning, they should all be listed. By all means also include concise text explaining the factors that make the chances minimal for minor parties and independents to have any chance at determining outcomes. But don't pre-suppose these outcomes; to do that makes you a pundit, not an encyclopaedic editor. This goes to the question of whether political attitudes in the USA, as shaped by news media that are seen elsewhere in the world as largely propaganda organs for corporate owners, are reliable guides to what is and what is not a 'fact'. The page here either joins the propaganda route, or reflects a reality in which this election is being fought by more than two contenders. Think of it in historical terms too: if African or Chinese readers, 20 years from now, want to know who ran in this presidential election, would it be accurate to say there were only two candidates? Four? Six? I came here via an invitation from Legobot to comment; I am not an American and have no right to vote in the coming elections. Peter S Strempel | Talk07:23, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Peterstrempel: I agree with your perspective for inclusion in the article, but inclusion in the infobox featured at the top of the article needs more limited criteria. The requirement of ballot lines for a majority of the electoral vote is somewhat inclusive but focuses on major candidates (4 in this election). It seems that including states with ballot access and write-in filings adding up to a majority, dilutes the focus, and is more difficult to maintain, with new write-in filings coming in until election day. Bcharles (talk) 18:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like discussion is starting to slow down significantly given the above comment came 3 days after JC's comment. Furthermore, the level of support for the "keep" and "remove" camps doesn't look like it will change that much especially since the margin between the two camps hasn't been changing that much throughout the duration of this RfC. Many people have expressed concern that the election will be or will almost be over by the time this RfC is over which would render the discussion here moot. As a result, we should definitely consider having this RfC formally closed by an admin ASAP. If nobody objects, I'll make the request myself. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 09:00, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As two weeks have passed and discussion does not seem to be evolving further, it may be time to close. A resolution will help in future presidential election articles, even if decided late in this cycle. Although the title mentions Castle and McMullin, De La Fuente and Kotlikoff may reach the threshold being discussed before the election. Bcharles (talk) 18:56, 18 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So my inclination is to remove, so that we include only those with ballot access to 270 votes not as write-ins. I'd like to add a further question before we close though - does McMullin's potential to win electoral college votes change things? Multiple polls have him over 20% in Utah, and multiple independent reliable sources have discussed this possibility ([5], [6], [7]. On that grounds, I may be inclined to keep him as an exception despite absence of ballot access; perhaps we need to add a caveat that anyone regularly polling over 20% in any one state should also be included, even if they don't have requisite access, as they may win electoral college votes? Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 07:05, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who worked in politics, there will be many more candidates becoming eligible for 270+ electoral votes the sooner the election approaches and the infobox will get out of control. It's not fair for Kotlikoff to be left off and Castle to be left in since they have the same criteria for eligibility.
1. 270 or more electoral votes through ballot access
OR
2. 10% or more national support through reputable polls
OR
3. 20% or more support in a single state from reputable polls
Ordered by the results of the 2012 election, which means you'd see Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump, Gary Johnson, Jill Stein and Evan McMullin. Personally, I'd like Clinton and Trump to be in the top part of the infobox seeing how Democrats and Republicans won electoral votes in 2012, and Johnson, Stein and McMullin in the bottom since they did not win any.--Guiletheme (talk) 10:27, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Polling isn't entirely accurate so I'm not sure if we should use it as criteria. I don't like your proposal for infobox ordering because how could McMullin win electoral votes in 2012 when he didn't even run? We should focus on achievements from this election like ballot access (the current criteria for being in the top row) not achievements from the last election. But this RfC isn't even about infobox ordering. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 11:54, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine if you don't like it, but do you have a better idea? I'm not trying to be snarky, I'll support any plan that can get consensus and will stop the infobox from turning into a fiasco with 10 or more candidates.--Guiletheme (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Compromise. I'm reversing my earlier decision. I dreaded the day that a seventh candidate would be added to the infobox, but that day has come. It's crowded and the criterion is just going to lead to more candidates being put in the fold. Here is the compromise that I am offering for everyone.
A candidate must have ballot access (not write-in access) to at least 270 Electoral College votes.
A candidate must be polling at least five percent in a state poll conducted in October.
The following are the post-election criteria:
A candidate must receive at least five percent in the national popular vote.
A candidate must receive at least one Electoral College vote.
In this discussion, both sides are holding their ground, so everyone has to make a concession. This is the compromise that I'm offering, similar to the one above. With this as the criteria, only five people qualify to be in the infobox pre-election: Clinton, Trump, Johnson, Stein, and McMullin. The order would be decided by the number of Electoral College votes that the candidates have ballot access to. This compromise is not perfect, but this is probably the best we can do concerning a compromise. The following is just speculation, so don't give me a link to WP:SPECULATION. These five candidates are the ones with the highest probability to remain post-election. Clinton and Trump are guaranteed spots, Johnson will if he remains over five percent, Stein if she can gain more support, and McMullin might win Utah. Jay Coop·Talk·Contributions17:22, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm no fan of the current seven-person infobox either, even though I am a fan of Kotlikoff. Under my preferred standard (count write-in access only if there is an official slate of electors to be voted on, named before the election - so not counting the nine states that allow blanket write-in access) Kotlikoff wouldn't be there - though McMullin wouldn't either, and Castle still would be there. I can't support a polling requirement, though. Polls can be shaped to ensure a particular result, or to prevent one - such as by not polling any third-party candidate at all. By your standard, offered in good faith, Castle would rank below Deez Nuts. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 19:11, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep - I have come to see no reason to discriminate on the basis of Write-In Access given the only difference between that and physically being on the ballot is a lack of visibility, and the vote for such a candidate is itself equally valid in both case whether written in or checked from the provided list (and thus the votes for electors for said candidate). To do otherwise is to set a standard above what is technically the minimum requirements to seek the Presidency, and a violation of the Neutral Point of View Wikipedia is meant to express. --Ariostos (talk) 18:51, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
There should be one criterion and one criterion alone. A third party candidate must have at least 5% in a statewide poll taken in October. That's it. There are three minor party candidates who qualify, Johnson, Stein and McMullin. I'd go with the "must be able to theoretically win the election" but McMullin is WINNING Utah at the moment. Should he actually do that, Johnson and Stein should be removed from the from the infobox entirely even though the Johnson will most likely get far more votes.
We should look at previous election pages for guidance. Look at 2000. Ralph Nader isn't there, even though he got over three million votes. In 1960, Harry Byrd (okay, unpledged electors who had previously said they would support him) won two states, and he's not in the infobox! Write-ins actually winning sre very rare. Several people here were very much against even mentioning write-in results in the primary pages. leave it as it was....please?Arglebargle79 (talk) 22:22, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I just reverted an attempt to close this discussion early. Although it may seem like a consensus on this is not possible, I think we should continue the discussion, perhaps with more suggestions for compromise. Sparkie82 (t•c)09:34, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Compromise - Throwing out a suggestion for a compromise: Since the reason for differential treatment of candidates lies in the WP principle of weight (and notability), maybe candidate weight could be more clearly indicated in the graphical treatment within the infobox. For example, candidates with 50-state ballor access on the top row, then in a subordinate section show candidates with 270 EV ballot access, and then subordinate to that show the names (no photos) of other candidates who are distinguested somehow by press coverage, write-in filings, etc. Sparkie82 (t•c)09:48, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Considering you just put Gary Johnson in the 2nd row, why are you saying candidates with 50-state ballot access should be at the top? If you truly believed that, you wouldn't have moved Johnson to the 2nd row against consensus. Anyways, everyone should check out my sandbox to see if they like the compromise. If you have any suggestions let me know or make a version at your own individual sandbox. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 10:37, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all, which is why I am re-archiving this RfC. If anyone wants to propose a compromise feel free to make a new discussion. But in the meantime, the consensus is to include write-in access. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 22:58, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.
I request that the write-in status for Rocky De La Fuente be updated to include the states of California, Kansas, Maryland, Nebraska, Virginia, and Washington. I also request that Oregon be added to every candidate's write in totals.
Rocky De La Fuente's website has a map that shows his ballot access, as well as current write-in access and "anticipated write-in access", which may or may not be approved in the future. The states listed above, including Oregon, are listed as write-ins, meaning that they are confirmed, or else they would have been included in the "anticipated" column. Also, if you look at the totals for Jill Stein, Darrell Castle, and Evan McMullin, their write-in status is based off their campaign websites' official totals. I am asking that we use the same standard for that of Mr. De La Fuente.
Also, I emailed the Oregon SoS office about their laws regarding write-ins, because I had read conflicting reports about the paperwork. They replied saying that there is so paperwork needed to file, only in the event that a write-in wins. Therefore, every candidate is considered to have write-in status in Oregon.
@199.120.101.23: Please post the specific link from De La Fuente's website, as i was unable to find it. Although some candidates may only show one source for their ballot access, all candidates are checked against other available sources by multiple editors.
Thank you for reporting the response from OR SoS. Ballot Access News states that presidential write-ins must file by 11 days before the election, and that OR won't count these unless the total write-ins outnumber the top candidates vote. Bcharles (talk) 04:09, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
has access to 271 ec-votes (254 as write-in), according to the policy that put castle and mcmullin to the infobox he should also be included. Any counterarguments? --Cartinal (talk) 07:58, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Write-in ballot access shouldn't be considered. With that logic, once the states allowing a write-in will exceed 270, everyone will be eligible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.59.152.99 (talk) 09:41, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So Castle and McMullin should also be deleted int he infobox. Kotlikoff, McMullin and Castle do all fulfill the criteria due to their status as write-ins. Or did some change in the requirements take place, which i am unaware of? --Cartinal (talk) 11:04, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
De La Fuente has:
Electoral votes: 147 (De La Fuente has access to a combined 147 electoral votes as an Independent, via The American Delta Party and via The Reform Party)[47][48]
I found it, it's something that comes up if you click the arrows near the top of his home page, and he does intend at least claim that he has confirmed access to about (314) Electors through Write-In Access, California being the big one to put him over the hurdle. I'm not sure if we have outside sources that can verify all that however, so I'm going to hold off on actually making the edit itself. --Ariostos (talk) 16:26, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Write-in qualifications for infobox
I'd like to point out that the figures in the table include 54 electoral votes from six states (AL, NH, NJ, PA, RI, VT) that do not have a process for filling as a write-in. For infobox purposes, we only count write-in access if the candidates have filed a full slate of electors, which is impossible in those states. Subtracting those 54 votes from De La Fuente's 314 and Kotlikoff's 301 puts both of them under the 270 vote threshold, so I am removing them from the infobox.
It's worth considering whether we should institute extra criteria for candidates who need write-in access to get to 270. Perhaps they should need actual ballot access in some number of states (notably, Kotlikoff only has on-ballot access in two states), or their campaign is notable enough to have its own campaign article. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 20:55, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'd argue against removing those States as counting for Write-Ins given the votes themselves are still validated, and I'm sure (I can't confirm) that there exists a process in each of these States where electors would be appointed to represent the Write-In candidate in December. Personally though I don't know what the system is should that theoretically happen. As for extra criteria, we should stay safe with requiring at least one State with ballot access; at the moment the only other candidate who would be on the precipice would be Tom Hoefling should he make it in California, making it nine candidates. --Ariostos (talk) 21:08, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus in 2012 was that we needed to verify that a full elector slate was filed, even in write-in states requiring registration. We should look into the process if a write-in candidate in a "free" write-in state wins. In any case, the RfC above is split down the middle on whether write-in access should count at all, and I don't think there'd be consensus for including free write-in access. I'm happy to hear more viewpoints. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 21:24, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I know, I was one of the ones that was involved in those discussions at the time when the issue of Write-Ins came up then. People here are a bit more open to the idea now than they were then, but its still a major struggle against inertia. If I have the time I'll see if I can get in touch with the Elections people in Pennsylvania, all the while hoping that this isn't some legal black hole they've never thought to cover; that's the big one of the lot. --Ariostos (talk) 21:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Write-in status shouldn't count. It never has before in a general and shouldn't now. In the NH primary pages, even though a write-in candidate came in third, his votes aren't counted. McMullin and Castle shouldn't be there, except that McM is actually WINNING Utah in the latest polling, so he should stay. Stein should be OUT as soon as the election is over as it looks like she won't be getting 5% nationally. Arglebargle79 (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That Write-In "candidate" in the case of New Hampshire is actually just the scattering of various Write-Ins, which likely included a multitude of candidates. You can't really count that as a single person; it would be akin to balling all the votes for Kasich, Cruz and Bush together and saying that those votes should be considered for first place, without specifying how many of those votes are for Kasich, Cruz or Bush. --Ariostos (talk) 23:32, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I'd rather leave De La Fuente and Kotlikoff off for now until there is a consensus to add them, given that the 2012 consensus would have excluded them due to lack of elector slates in those six free write-in states. It would also avoid everyone going crazy about their order in the infobox, which we don't have clear criteria for. I'm not going to double-revert, though.
Can we at least "audit" the write-in access for Castle, McMullin, De La Fuente, and Kotlikoff to ensure that they have actually named electors in enough write-in states to qualify? Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 17:58, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless of what we decide, De La Fuente now has enough access in the "non-freebie" states. Does anyone know what happens if a write-in wins in a "freebie" state? Could they file for a slate of electors after the fact or is there no process that exists for write-ins? Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:25, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We need to verify that a full slate of electors has been filed before it counts for infobox purposes. Some states such as New York don't require a full slate to be filed, so it wouldn't count unless we verify it manually. (Some states do require that a full elector slate be filed; I checked some of the larger ones and TX, FL, IL, and OH do this.) That's how we did it in 2012. So no, if New York is excluded, De La Fuente still isn't over the 270 EV threshold. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 03:15, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like the multiple threads of discussion here are getting out of hand. @Ariostos: Would you possibly agree to temporarily remove De La Fuente and Kotlikoff from the infobox until we can verify the filing of electors, and whether they can actually win electors in the "free" states? Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 17:41, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like we need a note in the infobox explaining why De La Fuente and Kotlikoff don't meet the criteria for inclusion. Otherwise, the readers will be very confused as to what the criteria for inclusion is. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 01:35, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is absurd to distinguish among all of the various modes and means of filing for write-in access. Write-in access is, in the broader frame of the election, rather trivial. Way too much editor time, and too many disputes, are tied up in this small facet. If the ruling holds that we include write-in states for calculating notability, then there is no reason to exclude a subset of these states. If we consider the possibility that a candidate could win with write-in votes, then it does not matter which states. There are explicit means to declare electors after the election in some states (e.g. OR WA), and constitutional provisions for resolving the slate in others. - Of course we could avoid all this by just focusing on states that each candidate actually has a ballot line. Bcharles (talk) 02:26, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Auditing the write-in access
We need to verify that the candidates have actually filed full elector slates in each write-in state for it to count. There are two ways to do this: some states require all write-in candidates to file slates (which you can usually verify in their laws), while for the others we need to manually verify that they have filed electors. I've put a list of the current claimer write-in states; let's add a reference to each to show whether or not electors have been filed. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 18:16, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I've gone through all the states below. I've been able to find evidence of electors being filed for 159 electoral votes for Kotlikoff (AZ, FL, IN, KY, ME, MD, MA, MI, ND, OH, TX) and 87 for De La Fuente (AZ, CA, IN, MD). Combined with their 17 and 147 votes of on-ballot access, neither meets the 270 threshold for the infobox. Feel free to update or challenge the items below, but my opinion is that both candidates should be removed from the infobox until we can document the necessary electoral slates. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 17:41, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The states indicated as "not listed" do accept write-ins, but apparently do not require filing of electors. I was confused by this as well, as the candidate is listed as a write-in in each of these states. I changed the notes to "no electors listed", to clear that ambiguity. Bcharles (talk) 14:43, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like we might be violating WP:OR leaving them out. If there's a procedure after a write-in wins a state then we should just include the other two candidates. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 16:22, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin: If a candidate wins any state by write-ins, the electors will be worked out, by post election filing, or state legislature appointing, or other state procedure. The electors would be pledged to vote for the state winner, but a candidates filing of electors helps ensure that they are faithful. Bcharles (talk) 18:34, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
A Note on Ordering of Candidates in Infobox Post Election
Since it now appears that Evan McMullin may win Utah and that Gary Johnson may get more than 5% of the vote, it is possible both may qualify to remain in the infobox post election and i would like to note that the standing precedent on how candidates are ordered in the infobox post-election is to order them by electoral college vote first and then by popular vote. For a good example of this see United_States_presidential_election,_1860 where four candidates are included in the infobox.XavierGreen (talk) 23:09, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The 1860 election has four candidates in the infobox as all four won at least one state meaning they all earned at least one electoral college vote. The current consensus is that a candidate must either achieve one electoral college vote or reach at least 5% of the popular vote to remain after the election takes place. If Evan McMullin does win a state, he will remain in the infobox. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 23:35, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but that's not what i was getting at. What i'm saying is if McMullin wins Utah and say gets 0.5% of the popular vote, and Johnson gets 6% of the popular vote but wins no electoral votes, McMullin would be listed before Johnson in the infobox because it is ordered by electoral college votes first as the 1860 election page indicates.XavierGreen (talk) 03:11, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For the record, and in the hopes of staving off a post-election disagreement such as the one we've had for pre-election coverage, I support this existing consensus. Note that even if Johnson won New Mexico, his best-polling state, he would have only five electoral votes, short of Utah's six unless he also won there. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 03:32, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would say Electoral College votes should go before popular vote. From a strict perspective also used for FPTP legislature elections, the EVs/seats won are politically more important. JackWilfred (talk) 15:01, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Request for clear consensus regarding the infobox (4, 6, or 8 candidates?)
Both the 2012 and 2016 articles for the United States presidential elections showed clear consensus that any candidate with enough ballot access can be displayed prior to the election and those that reach at least 5% of the popular vote remain after the election takes place.
Whether or not to show candidates with write-in access remains disputed with rough consensus for continuing to show Castle and McMullin.
As of now, eight candidates are being displayed, two of which may need more citations to determine if they can theoretically win. There was no consensus for this.
While Wikipedia is not a vote, the infobox has been topic of controversy on this talk page. The addition of the seventh and eighth candidates requires a consensus.
Who should be displayed before the election? Who should be displayed after the election?
Until the general election results are known, which of the following options should Wikipedia decide on for the infobox?
Option I. Four candidates - keep Johnson & Stein, remove the rest
(Top two: Clinton, Trump)
(Bottom two: Johnson, Stein)
Option II. Six candidates - keep McMullin & Castle, remove the rest
(Top three: Clinton, Trump, Johnson)
(Bottom three: Stein, McMullin, Castle)
Option III. Eight candidates - keep all
(Top three: Clinton, Trump, Johnson)
(Middle three: Stein, McMullin, Castle)
(Bottom two: De La Fuente, Kotlikoff)
My opinion is inclusive of any who can theoretically win; while I would prefer that it shows only those with ballot access, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. That being said, if even write-in access is not enough for one to win, they should instead be displayed later in the article as non-major third party candidates.
Additionally, I would like to discuss post-election inclusion and exclusion.
The current consensus for post-election results is to display any candidate that either takes a minimum of 5% of the popular vote or a minimum of 1 electoral college vote. This is a reasonable position though I would consider lowering it to 2% as in recent elections (such as 2012's presidential election) no one third party candidate achieved one full percent; only when combined did they surpass 1%, making anything higher unusual and by extension significant. Additionally, despite only receiving 2% of the vote in 2000's presidential election, many believed that Nader played a role in the election (and some even criticize Nader as the sole cause of the election's outcome). For that reason, I believe 2% is a viable threshold for a candidate to be displayed in the infobox after the election's results are declared, but I acknowledge the current threshold of 5%. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 23:36, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
.[reply]
The current consensus is fine, if the candidate gets less than 5% of the vote then we should not include them in the info-box. As for before the election, we just had a huge discussion regarding that. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:45, 19 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Third candidate scores in US presidential elections.svg
Here's a chart that shows the scores obtained by the third best candidates since 1900. I think it shows very well that 5% is an adequate threshold to separate the few truly significant 3rd candidates. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 01:43, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This chart is convincing that 5% does show a truly significant candidate, though I must ask if the 5% threshold applies to continuing to have sections for these candidates later in the article as well.
Is there consensus on if we should keep information regarding these candidates and/or their campaigns later in the article even if not in the infobox?
I understand that only significant information is to be displayed on Wikipedia but in this election I find the third parties collectively to play a more significant role than they have in decades. BrendonTheWizard (talk)
I don't think anyone has suggested third parties should be completely omitted in this article. I also agree they deserve mention. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 11:14, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion should not revolve around which specific candidates should be in the infobox, but what objective criteria we should use. There is already discussion going on above at #Write-in qualifications for infobox on whether De La Fuente and Kotlikoff actually have enough qualifying write-in access to be in the infobox in the first place. Even if they do, I'd support instituting additional criteria for such candidates who need write-in access to get to 270. Some choices would be to require on-ballot access in some number of states or electoral votes, or that their campaign is notable enough to have its own campaign article.
In our case, De La Fuente is on the ballot on more states than even McMullin, and he has the support of the long-established Reform Party (even if it is much reduced from its former prominence). Kotlikoff on the other hand is on the ballot in only two states, has the backing of no established party, and has almost no press coverage. Subjectively, I feel like we should set the threshold higher than that. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 03:31, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'll vote for option I with the criteria being 270+ electoral votes ballot access. This is getting out of control. We can put McMullin/De La Fuente/Castle/Kotlikoff in their own special section of third-party candidates with write-in access for 270 or more electoral votes later in the article.--Guiletheme (talk) 04:21, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, absolutely any criterion needs to be an objective standard, not a means to set the line in one place. I think at this point the only standard that will get agreement is "wait two more weeks". 64.105.98.115 (talk) 04:52, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Question about the 5% popular vote requirement for keeping candidates in the infobox after the election: there is actually a nonzero chance in this election that McMullin could win in Utah while receiving a miniscule percentage of the popular vote (Fivethirtyeight currently pegs his chances in Utah at 13.6%, but there isn't enough polling to know if that is accurate). I think we have to include any candidate who wins even one electoral vote, no matter their vote percentage. Is there a consensus for this?--Danaman5 (talk) 01:38, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Be sure to note the 1 electoral vote does not apply to faithless electors. Otherwise John Hospers would be in the infobox in '72, Ronald Reagan would be in the infobox in '76, and John Edwards would be in the infobox in '04.--William S. Saturn (talk) 17:35, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ballot access seems like a reasonable, objective standard for determining the candidates who go in the infobox for a presidential election that's in progress. So I would favor option 1. For infoboxes after an election, I strongly favor the current precedent of 5% or at least one electoral vote (discounting faithless electors), which seems like a great number for capturing whether a candidate was a truly important force as more than just a spoiler. Orser67 (talk) 21:20, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think the top six candidates Clinton, Trump, Johnson, Stein, McMullin and Castle should be in the info box. Everyone else is irreverent in the election and does not have enough original ballot access to win and than anyone who gets over 5% can be listed post election.LuckyLag360 (talk) 21:44, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How was this ruled out and also what are the "qualifications" to be in the info box. At the very least Johnson has to be there as he has 50 state ballot access and polling well above 5%.LuckyLag360 (talk) 22:34, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We had a very long discussion which we recently closed that showed a consensus for keeping Castle and McMullin in the infobox. See #A call for consensus on McMullin and Castle above. This discussion is a follow-up to that one on the inclusion of De La Fuente and Kotlikoff.
In general, the rule is that in order to be included in the infobox, it needs to be possible for a candidate to win a majority of the votes in the Electoral College. The ongoing discussions are about what sort of ballot access counts. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 23:19, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.
Let's move to collecting !votes so we can actually determine what the consensus is on inclusion of Rocky De La Fuente and Laurence Kotlikoff in the infobox. Keep in mind the previous consensus that the fundamental infobox inclusion criterion is that it is legally possible for the candidate to win a majority of the votes in the Electoral College, and that write-in access counts in principle (see #A call for consensus on McMullin and Castle above). This consensus is not being revisited here. The question here is what kind of write-in ballot access counts. The main considerations are:
Should we continue to require actual documentation that electors have been selected, as was done in 2012? (See #Auditing the write-in access above.)
Should we count the 54 electoral votes from the six "free write-in" states (AL, NH, NJ, PA, RI, VT), which do not have a process for advance filing as a write-in candidate?
Should there be additional requirements for candidates who need write-in access to get to 270 electoral votes, such as requiring that they have on-ballot access for a certain number of states or electoral votes?
If polling above a certain percent is not included in the criteria, the whole thing is fairly meaningless from the point of view of creating an article that will actually inform someone who doesn't already know much about the election. Including barely notable people like Castle and De la Fuente could cause readers to completely misunderstand the election. Putting these people in the infobox gives them undue weight. If all we're looking at is ballot access we will include a lot of people who technically could win but definitely will not win. Including them in the infobox gives a false message to uneducated readers.
But since I've already presented this argument and no one cared about making an article useful for the general public, I propose that the only criteria for inclusion in the infobox is having an article on Wikpedia and having a reliable source stating that you're running for president. An infobox of 20 or 30 is just as useful as one of 6 or 8.Earthscent (talk) 02:01, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. But if they are not excluded, I'm not being sarcastic about increasing the infobox to a few dozen people, for this election and for 2020. Earthscent (talk) 14:41, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You may not be sarcastic, but your position illustrates why it is important to keep fairly restrictive inclusion criteria for the infobox. If we are actually going down the road of including over a dozen candidates, I would support removing the infobox altogether until the election day, and stop this never ending tedious discussion. The infobox is not a substitute for the whole article, merely a summary of the most important information. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 15:09, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi guys, I know that couple of days ago I was angry with some of you and I apologize if you got offended by any comment I made. Now let me share with you what I think. Elections in our beautiful country are all about voting for the person that we think that is the best option. Now in a more objective way, of course for him or her to be able to become the POTUS needs to have the mathematic chance of accomplishing it. This year that amount is 270. That is all they need. It doesn't matter if they are write ins or if they are in the ballot is about being able to win. Wikipedia is the #1 source of information and the beauty of it is that it usually gives all of us a transparent access to information. We can all agree that today people read less, and this is a pretty big article, so if we send candidates to other areas of the page is not giving them the chance to be seen. Media we know that have always controlled what we see and is subjective, here we have the chance to be fair for once. So bottom line is not just about placing the main candidates (Hillary and Trump) is about giving the ones who have the chance to get more than 269 the right of being seen, they have made a huge effort, lets not take it away from them. The info box is the most seen area of the article, why are we going to make it so exclusive? This is about us being better than the media, is about being good. Probably Hillary or Trump are going to win, but this is not about odds is about merits. After the 8th of November this is just going to be history, today is alive. Love you fellas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarinetcousin (talk • contribs) 02:25, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude. We do not currently have documentation that either of the candidates have actually selected 270 electors, according to #Auditing the write-in access. I would support including either candidate if we can document the requisite number of electors, clarify the situation in the "free write-in" states, and/or they gain access in additional states. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 03:01, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Exclude. Agreed, So we can keep the current six but for the other two they shouldnt be added until they have the proper amount of write in access. LuckyLag360 (talk) 03:09, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, here are some info sources from where you can see that they (the ones currently in the infobox, Kotlikoff and De La Fuente) have access to more than 269 votes.
https://ballotpedia.org/Ballot_access_for_presidential_candidates, according to this source; ¨An individual can run as a write-in candidate. In 34 states, a write-in candidate must file paperwork in advance of the election. In nine states, write-in voting for presidential candidates is not permitted. The remaining states do not require write-in candidates to file paperwork in advance of the election.¨ Vote Smart, "Government 101: United States Presidential Primary," accessed August 15, 2015. This means that if they are write in they had to apply and fulfill the requirements.
They qualify with the criteria: Electoral + Write Ins > 269
I don't know if any other editors are continuing to take comments on this, but I'm in favor of only listing the candidates who either receive more than 5 percent of the nationwide popular vote, or who receive any Electoral College votes. Since Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, I suggest listing only 5 candidates right now: H. Clinton, Trump, G. Johnson, Stein, and McMullin. McMullin is only included in my suggestion because there's a strong possibility that he could win Utah's 6 Electoral College votes. If it turns out he doesn't win Utah, then it's obvious he should be removed, but I think McMullin should be kept until at least after the popular vote totals and Electoral College vote totals are publicly known. Also, I don't believe a candidate should be listed in the infobox just because they can reach 270 or more Electoral College votes with the majority of them being write-in votes. I believe a candidate should be listed if the majority of the possible Electoral College votes comes from the ballot, not write-in votes. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 07:39, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but only if we can think of a way to do this while also avoiding a WP:SYNTH violation. But if we do indeed exclude these candidates there would need to be something in the article and/or infobox explaining who does and doesn't have a slate of electors filed for each jurisdiction. Maybe add new colors on the map to indicate which states a slate of electors has been filed for. Otherwise, the readers would probably be pretty confused about what the criteria for inclusion is.
Yes, we should count the "freebie" states unless there is a good enough reason to believe that there is no post-election process for filing a slate of electors.
Comment: This discussion is too broad, including multiple questions and involving tenuous prior decisions. I recommend focusing on a singe question with no mention of specific candidates. Bcharles (talk) 19:14, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unless there is a reasonable reason to believe that there isn't a post-election process for a write-in that wins a state without a slate of electors, I think we should include the other candidates. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:17, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than tripping over everybody on this article, I'm merely asking if it would be appropriate to include a link to a list of elector candidates that I'm trying to gather from various state agencies and other news services? If anybody wants to take a bit of a break from this article and help me out trying to find sources of information for the states I haven't found any information about, it would be appreciated too. --Robert Horning (talk) 06:39, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying as best as I can to get the information directly from the state election officials rather than from news services if I can. The State of Deleware claims that they have not yet received the slate of electors from the political parties yet... in spite of state law that requires them to be filed by September 1st. This is far more frustrating to dig up than I anticipated and I'm getting some bureaucratic push-back, along with having to do some really heavy digging for even the stuff I've found so far. Still, thank you for all of your help in this. --Robert Horning (talk) 22:18, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If someone tries to add write-ins into the info box, revome them
The reason why Castle and other write-ins are not currently in the infobox is because the consensus has been, since 2012, to include only candidates who are on the ballot in enough states to be able to achieve 270 electoral votes, not write-ins. The most recent attempts to add write-in candidates started with an bold attempt to add Castle to the infobox during a discussion on Aug 23 at 735891756, which was challenged (reverted) at 736056459. The addition of Castle and other write-ins have been proposed/challenged/discussed ever since at discussions on this article, including the thread #Infobox inclusion, again and several other threads without reaching a consensus to add them. There is a RfC currently under discussion with no consensus to change the criterion to add write-ins to the infobox, therefore, any edits that try to put write-ins in the infobox should be be immediately reverted. Sparkie82 (t•c)09:08, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I dont want to add gasoline to the fire but I was checking out some of the information and I think that if the criteria is to order them by amount of electotal votes + write ins Castle should be be number 5, De La Fuente 6, McMullin 7 and Kotilkoff 8. It is just a suggestion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.54.160.228 (talk) 13:58, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've tried telling them about that unanimous consensus from August, but every time I bring it up they ignore me (and they even said on their talk page that they are going to ignore me from now on). Sparkie82 has been very disruptive but the admins don't seem to care enough to do something about it I guess. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 18:21, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please remove all the candidates who aren't Clinton, Trump, Johnson or Stein from the main section.
Even including Johnson and Stein is over the top let alone this. Why? Because it's absurd.
Almost all previous elections had tonnes of candidates but they weren't included in the main section.
Not done: There is extensive discussion on this subject. We can make this edit only once a consensus is reached. Making edit requests for this is useless. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 17:08, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Rocky, Laurence, Gloria and Hoefling
Should Rocky de la Fuente and Laurence Kotlikoff be moved up to Major Third PARTY Candidates now that they have secured the 270 Electoral Votes needed like we have done for the other Candidates?
Gloria La Riva's map shouldn't be there, as you say. Also, De La Fuente's map follows some horribly complicated scheme that isn't documented in the map legend. And I agree that the candidate color keys in general are a mess. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 01:28, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
De La Fuentes map uses 4 colors (On ballot, write-in, lawsuit, off ballot). There is a vertical stripe patern defined for states with write-in and pending lawsuit. It is easy to set the appropriate fill color or pattern with a text editor. Bcharles (talk) 02:04, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh!, or "march madness" in October
This is not crystal ball: The only candidates who are capable of receiving electoral votes are Clinton, Trump and McMullin. That's it. If a faithless elector in Oregon votes for Stein like he's threatening to, then that might be slightly different, but that's highly improbable. Most states that permit write-in votes don't have lists they give out at the polls, so nobody has any idea who these people are, and they won't get more than a dozen votes, if that many, in any state they have write-in "access."
McMullin may be an exception because of all that publicity he received by surging in Utah, he may get some traction elsewhere. I dunno. But I do know this. Someone should start working on a sandbox version of he post election permanent article NOW and post a link on this page so we can start a joint effort to get ready before going for our next poll fix.Arglebargle79 (talk) 21:43, 20 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you acknowledging that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball and immediately contradicted that by stating why you believe only three candidates can win, even using words like "highly improbable"? The consensus is prior to the election, a candidate's requirement to appear on the infobox is the theoretical ability to win by having access to 270 electoral college votes. That does not mean that they must poll high in states. Winning an electoral college vote (or reaching at least 5% of the popular vote) is the post-election requirement. If you would like to speak about states specifically, as of now Gary Johnson is polling competitively with Trump and Hillary (though not enough to win the state as of now) in the state of New Mexico. As for who will win the state, we cannot know until the results are in. We can assume Hillary will win it, but that doesn't mean that we should exclude him from the infobox as of now. He, like Stein, can theoretically win at least 270 votes on ballot access alone, and for that reason is currently displayed. The reason why the other candidates in the infobox are a topic of debate is write-in access. As of now, the consensus is that they stay for the time being due to the potential to theoretically win. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball.BrendonTheWizard (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:40, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
None of the sites that are included in the swing state table conduct polls. All do analysis of polling and other data, similarly to FiveThirtyEight, which has a decent track record. The problem is that FiveThirtyEight does not identify or distinguish any "swing states", but just rates states on a continuum. That makes it arbitrary as to which states are labeled tossup, tilt, lean or safe. Bcharles (talk) 16:24, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In the table of independent candidates, please remove the recently-added "Stoyevant Party" entry. It appears to be a hoax, and in any case there is no source given for any ballot access. Thanks to whoever look after this. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 15:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The image on the Wikipedia article for Evan McMullin has been replaced recently and it looks rather nice compared to the current one that we have. I do not know if the new image is free but I saw it added to his article so I'm assuming that it could be a viable replacement for what we have now.
What do you think we should use?
Additionally, his color currently is a reddish orange that appears similar to the color being used for Trump, so I am considering changing it to an orange that leans neither to red nor yellow as to more clearly distinguish him.
The infobox on this section compares the current version of how McMullin appears to my proposed change. Please respond with opinions. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 22:06, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If the image is actually free (the file page currently says it is, but the source is not well provided), I suggest you go ahead and replace the image. This is not controversial in any way since option 1 is superior to 2 in every way. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 22:53, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In response to William S. Saturn, I tried doing a quick search for this image. This tweet from the verified TeamMcMullin account utilizes the same image, which leads me to believe that not only is Evan McMullin the copyright holder but that he also agrees to release it under free license. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 23:07, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The copyright holder is usually the person who took the photo unless there is some other arrangement made. We need proof that an arrangement was made with the photographer and that the copyright holder agrees to release it under a free license.--William S. Saturn (talk) 23:43, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I must add that this image will need to be cropped to be in the infobox. I previewed what the infobox would look like with the image replaced, and it's a little too wide. For now, I've changed only the color in the infobox. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 23:22, 21 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
When looking at the version of the article with the new & cropped image, it appears that it is not wide enough now. I'll post an updated version when I can get the dimensions exact. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 00:12, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@BrendonTheWizard: A photograph needs to be under a Creative Commons license that allows commercial reuse, or in the public domain (e.g. because it was taken by a federal government employee) in order to be used. Neither of those Flickr photographs fulfill those criteria.
I attempted to find pictures of him from government sources by searching through the websites associated with his past government jobs. The most I could find was a pdf confirming his position as a policy director, but I could not find a photograph. His events could generate photographs of him, there's also the possibility of him showing up at the F&E third party debate on the 25th of October soon, though his campaign has not confirmed the invitation. BrendonTheWizard (talk) 00:30, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
One possibility is to contact Anthony Trueheart at [37]. He's the author of the current portrait and he may be willing to publish a better quality portrait that we could use. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 00:37, 22 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
My question about the infobox color is this: who decided it had to be orange? Shouldn't it be a color that reflects his campaign logo? Also, shouldn't consensus be reached as to what the HTML or HEX color code is? Personally, I think that the infobox color for McMullin's campaign should be something like this: reddish-orange Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 07:47, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Maps don't show up on Firefox
This page contains many small maps showing which states a candidate has ballot access in. They show up on Internet Explorer, but not on Firefox. I am guessing this is due to the use of the {{multiple image}} macro, because these maps show up correctly on other pages (e.g., Evan McMullin presidential campaign, 2016) in Firefox.
Maps show up OK on Firefox here: Firefox 49.0.2, Windows 10 on an HP PC displays maps for Stein (shades of green), McMullin (orange), Castle (violet), De La Fuente (blue-violet), Kotlikoff (yellow-green), Maturen and La Riva. I don't normally use Firefox, and I know I may have misunderstood the original comment ... it seems to me that the page appears essentially identical via Firefox and Chrome ... but if others can describe what platform they are using and how the page renders for them, that may provide clues. When I examine the HTML source in my browser, the maps are just being displayed as .svg images, and the coding seems straightforward. NameIsRon (talk) 06:08, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I thought the original post was about maps in the "Other third parties and independents" section. If the comment refers to maps in the "Major third parties and independents" section, I have had no problem seeing those on firefox. If this is still a problem, please be specific as to which candidate maps are not displaying. Bcharles (talk) 18:50, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Unjustified removal of Rocky De La Fuente and Laurence Kotlikoff from the infobox
LuckyLag360 removed Rocky De La Fuente and Laurence Kotlikoff from the infobox without providing a valid reason.[38] When I tried to add re‐add them to the infobox, my edit was reverted by LuckyLag360.[39] The current consensus is to include De La Fuente and Kotlikoff because they can theoretically win 270 Electoral Votes through write‐in access. Since I can't take them back because of WP:1RR, can someone else do that instead? —MartinZ02 (talk) 00:44, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.
At some point during the edit wars today, the "Stoyevant Party" nonsense crept back into the list of minor-party candidates. There is no evidence for the existence of this candidacy, and none is provided in the listing in any case, so someone should remove it 64.105.98.115 (talk) 03:16, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I removed it. I google searched for it and I could not find anything. Regardless though unless the editor can source there add it shouldnt be there, so I removed it.LuckyLag360 (talk) 03:48, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I hope that other editors will watch for this, since it seems very likely that the same content will return, and it's almost certainly just someone playing pretend. 64.105.98.115 (talk) 04:02, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note that no state ballot lines were listed, only a few write-in states. At least one state ballot line is required to be included here. Bcharles (talk) 14:50, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
the introductory question: is it technically possible to feed results from all voting maschines directly to infobox? I see it is. If the data are presented bet ween one interface is rather trivial to write a soft to flip the numbers on wikipedia infobox. If we do it, we wont need to watch the mosst sad MSM but all views will go to our website. I can dedicate some programming for this challenging task. And if there is your support we can provide a source. 2601:248:4301:5A70:201:2FF:FE98:B460 (talk) 03:27, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
But the machines are already connected to servers[1] and the election judges are merely 'legitimizing decoration' because they do not judge the process. Why not trust more solid base of 5columns (and the the info-neutralization in our WP:5P) but trust some corporate closed source solution ? Corporations works for profit. This issue (electronic voting process) have a lot of refs but is not addressed in this article at all: 'string "mach* not found' and singular "electr*" refer to a crystal ball. 2601:248:4301:5A70:201:2FF:FE98:B460 (talk) 21:03, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, too. However, people keep making major changes to the article without a reached consensus, and they're justifiably reverted, yet the person who made the major change in the first place defends themself by saying a consensus was reached, but such a consensus was set out to made only a couple of days ago, with barely anybody having the time to look at it yet. @SPECIFICO: and @Antony-22: are some of the people who say a consensus has been reached. You can't say a consensus has been reached when it has been set out to be made only a couple of days prior! Think about it! If the election were to occur now instead of on the eighth, and it was reported that this was going to be happening on a news channel that isn't viewed often, very few people would vote. This means that the result wouldn't be anywhere near 100% accurate! Yuri Alexeyevich Gagarin (talk) 16:31, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I said no such thing about consensus. I am saying that you're a Single Purpose Account that has ignored warnings from half a dozen editors and you should be blocked or banned from Wikipedia toot sweet. SPECIFICOtalk17:05, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus from 2012 was that we needed documentation that 270 electors had been appointed, which should carry over to this cycle. However, I personally am not making further edits to the infobox regarding De La Fuente and Kotlikoff until the current discussion is closed. Antony–22 (talk⁄contribs) 18:16, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Antony, De La Fuente and Kotilkoff were excluded again from the article. McMullin is a write in candidate, this means that for example De La Fuente is in more ballots than him, twice as much, but this should not be an issue because McMullin is registered in more write ins. You were part of the conversation in which the 270 was established as a requirement. Now people needs to follow through. The info box is vital for every candidate that has made an effort to be able to get to 270, it doesn't matter how. There is a lot of us that can edit the article, but we believe in the consensus, while other guys are just making changes. Our next President is going to be the same and it doesn't matter if him or her wins by presence on the ballots or by write ins. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarinetcousin (talk • contribs) 20:43, 23 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: Heathercutajar.
Done. Prcc27🌍 (talk) 19:13, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
No provision for filing electors [8]
No electors listed [9]
Full slate required [10]
Full slate not required [35]
Not done: There is extensive discussion on this subject. We can make this edit only once a consensus is reached. Making edit requests for this is useless. Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 17:08, 20 October 2016 (UTC)
