User talk:Jimbo Wales

Idea

I've been an administrator, mediator and bureaucrat here for over a decade and I don't think I've ever written on Jimbo's talk page (maybe once or twice). Anyway, I've just gotten my first topic ban from Donald Trump. Sure, I deserved it, but there are about 10 more editors violating policies and having conflicts of interest routinely in order to whitewash the article of seemingly anti-Trump material. The admins presiding over the pages aren't doing anything about it. Since you recently stepped in to unilaterally move Meghan Markle, what about swinging by the American politics pages and doing a bunch of drive-by banning/blocking? Andrevan@ 18:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

ArbCom could pass a motion on imposing general sanctions on pages related to Trump. Count Iblis (talk) 18:57, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Err...they could also pass a motion preventing JW from doing anything "drive-by" :D —SerialNumber54129 ^{paranoia /cheap sh*t room} 19:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I certainly didn't intend to cause any dustup in the case of Meghan Markle - just to do the right thing as a bit of fun. I remember when it used to be ok to do the right thing at Wikipedia and have some fun with it.  :-) Now, as to the Trump situation, I think I'll steer very far from it for now. Happy to have a long read at some point to see what I think, but.... I generally believe that editors should mostly stay away from situations or topics that are very emotional for them, and I can get quite emotional about Donald Trump. It would be a lot of work for me personally to write in a neutral way about him, because he upsets me so much.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I agree, and thanks for replying! I have contributed my time and money to Wikipedia for many years and intend to continue to do so, and I support breaking things like Markle from time to time. Maybe you yourself would be topic banned from Trump as I have :-) I also miss the days when WP:IAR could be used when appropriate to improve the encyclopedia despite some technical issues, ie the spirit and not the letter of policy. There's a difference between cowboy adminning and knowing when to break the rules for the spirit of Wiki, NPOV, verifiability, freedom, the wisdom of crowds, democracy, and so on. Anyway, as I said, the topic ban is totally justified, but I haven't seen enough of a boomerang for issues like this [1][2] not to single anyone out, but if there's anything that upsets me more about users trying to censor Trump's shameful past and his pending investigations, it's people attacking the consensus system that has brought us the amazing things that the community has done, and you and I helped with in whatever large or small way. So -- I do urge you to review some of what's gone on despite the strong emotional feelings there for all of our sakes, but I totally understand why you may not, and I thank you again for many productive and happy years here. Andrevan@ 20:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Btw, since we can fast-forward Markle's Google trend into the future, can we extrapolate Trump RS post-impeachment? ;-) Andrevan@ 20:56, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

For someone who has been topic banned from editing Trump related things you sure are still talking about him everywhere. Just saying. --Tarage (talk) 21:21, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

The one-time "appeal to Jimbo" and the "appeal to blocking admin" are valid exceptions to a blanket topic ban, and valid surrealist techniques. I wasn't even asking the topic ban be lifted off myself. As Jimbo says, I was doing what I thought was the right thing and focusing on the basics, like a simple discussion about a policy instead of filling out an appeal form or filing a case with clerks etc. As I said, the topic ban can stand and is justified, I've unwatched the articles and related articles' talk pages. Andrevan@ 21:39, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Already covered by American politics. Guy (Help!) 21:43, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Andrevan, You are lucky that you didn't get desysopped after accusing several veteran editors of being paid Russian trolls. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:12, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

That, and attempted outing of editors - not just in-Wikipedia but outside Wikipedia at an anti-Wikipedia site.[3], [4]. -- ψλ ● ✉ ✓ 23:59, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Diffs:[5][6], [7][8][9][10]

Thread:[11]

Quotes:

• "Wikipedia is under attack by Russian/GOP agents and partisans. [redacted] is probably one of them, and I would not assume that just because there is a lengthy history going back years that the user cannot also be a paid editor. We know that the Russians spent time building profiles and activating them later." _{-- posted by Andrevan on 05:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)}

• "I suspect at least some of these users to be paid Russian/GOP/NRA advocacy agents -- Trump World PR reps. [...] I may have given up my impartiality to engage on the page over the last few days, but I submit I was doing so in the interest of ultimately making progress in the dispute. I won't hide my own POV about Mr. Trump" _{-- posted by Andrevan on 05:10, 25 May 2018 (UTC)}

• "...which supports the idea of [redacted] being a Russian agent..." _{--posted by Andrevan on 05:34, 25 May 2018 (UTC)}

The sanction Andrevan is complaining about ("You are topic banned for three months from editing any page related to Donald Trump, broadly construed. This includes all talk pages") was incredibly lenient. I think that as a minimum he should have been infinitely topic banned from all articles involving post-1932 American politics, broadly construed, with the option of appealing the topic ban after 6 months if and only if he showed an understanding of what he did wrong and a commitment to never again call anyone a Russian agent without solid proof -- and I don't consider disagreeing with him in a content dispute to be "proof". --Guy Macon (talk) 03:58, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

And not all the eds on those pages were long term users. These were PA's yes, but lets not pretend he had the decency to make it clear who he was among those comnents at.Slatersteven (talk) 10:47, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, he may be on to something or on something or something.--MONGO 11:20, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

It appears from the above comment that Slatersteven still does not understand what he did wrong. We aren't allowed to call anyone -- new user or long term user -- a Russian agent without at the same time providing solid evidence. Again, he should be topic banned or indeffed until he "gets it". --Guy Macon (talk) 15:41, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Which part of "These were PA's yes" displays a lack of understanding they were PA's?Slatersteven (talk) 16:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

What was the point of writing the words "And not all the eds on those pages were long term users" if not to imply that at least some of the short term users are Russian agents? I keep seeing you Andrevan saying "yes, it was a PA" but I haven't seen you Andrevan say "and I was wrong. I have zero evidence that 'Wikipedia is under attack by Russian/GOP agents', I have zero evidence that 'we know that the Russians spent time building profiles and activating them later', or I have zero evidence that 'at least some of these users [are] paid Russian/GOP/NRA advocacy agents'. I am not seeing you Andrevan stating "I have decided to not hold opinions that are not backed up by evidence". Instead, it sound a lot like you are Andrevan is agreeing not to name individual editors as being Russian agents while holding on to your his batshit insane conspiracy theory that Wikipedia is infiltrated by Russian agents and that somehow this has something to do with the GOP and the NRA. Andrevan, feel free to correct me if I am wrong and plainly state that you no longer believe those things.

You Andrevan already freely admitted "I may have given up my impartiality" and "I won't hide my own POV about Mr. Trump." above, Jimbo says "I generally believe that editors should mostly stay away from situations or topics that are very emotional for them, and I can get quite emotional about Donald Trump. It would be a lot of work for me personally to write in a neutral way about him, because he upsets me so much". That's good advice. I would also mention that I generally avoid the political pages for the same reason (the difference being that I have equal disdain for both sides while existing in in a sea of POV-pushing editors who think that their side are angels while the other side are devils). --Guy Macon (talk) 02:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Guy, you seem to be confusing me with Slatersteven. Aside from that, I said that the topic ban is justified, and I wasn't asking Jimbo to find otherwise. I just asked if he would go and find some deserving editors on the other side and ban them as well. Andrevan@ 03:23, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

My mistake. I struck out the error and corrected it above. --Guy Macon (talk) 04:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

To point out your statement he made it about long term eds was not correct (well not from what I saw). I have no issue with condemning bad behavior, as long as we condemn it for the right reasons. But if we condemn it for the wrong reasons we give an impression that maybe it was not as bad as we make it our to be. Nothing is going to get this overturned quicker then the accused being able to say "but look he does not even know who said what about whomever".Slatersteven (talk) 09:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Is it not considered poor form for a topic banned editor to come here asking for other editors to get banned from the same topic? Lepricavark (talk) 03:38, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• It seems like a fair question if indeed the other editors exhibited behavior that is the same or worse than the topic-banned editor. The problem is that [A] most people who have looked at the page don't agree about other's behavior being worse, and [B] Jimbos's talk page is not the right place place to ask for someone to be topic banned. Claiming that "the one-time 'appeal to Jimbo' and the 'appeal to blocking admin' are valid exceptions to a blanket topic ban" while at the same time saying "I wasn't even asking the topic ban be lifted off myself" and instead asking for other users to be topic banned is really stretching the meaning of the word "appeal". --Guy Macon (talk) 04:58, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

• Feel free to continue to discuss here, but what's done is done. You apparently didn't read my various statements because you prejudge them to not contain anything useful. You even just apparently confused me with a different user. I have let the matter and the appeal, as it were, lie. Like I said, I didn't contest the topic ban, it was following policy, and I walked directly up to the line before stepping over it. My entire endeavor on the articles I've been banned from was to draw attention to a problematic whitewashing campaign on them, and I would gladly ignore the articles if they were being properly watched over. I am entitled to appeal discussion around the ban itself even if I use that space and time to instead call for the cartel of editors trying to downplay Roseanne's racism, or whatever it is, to be properly dealt with. It isn't that hard to recognize policy violating POV pushers who constantly repeat arguments like "that's an opinion," "you haven't given me proof," "give me one piece of evidence," "that's OR/SYNTH," "the sources don't say that," when every source you have says Roseanne's tweets about Soros and calling Valerie Jarrett an ape are racist. Doesn't matter if Sputnik or Breitbart thought Roseanne was fine and Bill Maher is the real problem. Organized, socking POV pushers should be dealt with with extreme prejudice, and it's not that hard to spot. You don't AGF when people aren't being honest and you can't reason with them. Andrevan@ 05:12, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

And yet again you remain blind to the reasons you were TBANned. There is no "whitewashing campaign", there are no "Russian/GOP/NRA" paid trolls. Your behavior is particularly strange as you claimed being a veteran "rouge admin"; surely you remember that There is no cabal. For your own good, please stop your RGW crusade; you are only damaging your own reputation, possibly beyond repair. — JFG ^talk 06:46, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

I would hardly call the above a good reason for you to stay an admin, if you are not capable of obeying policy because you are going to oppose "problematic whitewashing campaign"s (battleground if ever I saw it) then In think you should not be an admin, it is clear that your politics is getting in the way of your neutrality.Slatersteven (talk) 09:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is a popular site, and its articles often appear high in search-engine rankings. You might think that it is a great place to set the record straight and Right Great Wrongs, but that's not the case. We can record the righting of great wrongs, but we can't ride the crest of the wave because we can only report that which is verifiable from reliable and secondary sources, giving appropriate weight to the balance of informed opinion: even if you're sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it. [...] Wikipedia doesn't lead, we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements. What we do is find neutral ways of presenting them."
Source: Wikipedia:Tendentious editing#Righting great wrongs
--Guy Macon (talk) 15:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Because Andrevan can no longer reply (See User talk:Andrevan#Blocked for topic ban violations) the above will be my last comment on this subject. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

As another editor topic banned due to a POV-pushing tag-team, I applaud Andrevan's behavior as exemplary, and condemn the collaborators acting against both him and the quality of the encyclopedia in the strongest possible terms.

Jimbo, yes it's emotional. Would you have asked Martin Luther King to avoid speaking and acting on controversial topics because he was too emotionally involved? I agree, you should step in and stop the organized whitewashing. History is watching. EllenCT (talk) 17:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I assume this is satire.Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I am entirely sincere. EllenCT (talk) 03:20, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Then frankly I am amazed you think his behavior was exemplary. He broke the rules, I do not consider breaking "the law" even for the best of motives exemplary. Comparing his actions to those of a man fighting actual harmful prejudice (rather then fighting to claim a man in innocent, as far as I know a corner stone of both our nations legal system) just undermines the whole idea this is anything but party politics. He (that is to say Andrevan) does not face death or threats of violence. He is not some Martin Luther King, he is (at best, and being very generous) A Donkey hooting at windmills.Slatersteven (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

If IAR does not apply or is not upheld by administrators in the face of the world's most consequential coordinated racist, nationalist, fascist, discriminatory disinformation campaign since the advent of Wikipedia, then the encyclopedia is reduced to nothing more than the tyranny of the most common denominator of tag-team reactionary whitewashing. Is Andrevan the only bureaucrat with the backbone to stand up to those who want to hide the truth about what secondary sources say about Donald Trump? And look at what happened to him. That is the future of accuracy on Wikipedia, because admins would rather retreat to the ease of collaboration with activist tag-teams than with those upholding neutral representation of the reliable sources, and basic human decency. EllenCT (talk) 15:05, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

You are aware that these racist nationalist, fascist discriminatory disinformationists did not (as far as I recall) get their way? In fact it was the fact they were not being allowed to get their way that caused the spat he threw a wobbly over. The rest of us just said "nay, nay and thrice nay". You do not need to shout abuse and lob around accusations to win an argument, you just have to have... a slightly better argument. All he (and I suspect you are now) did was to dig a hole his opponents could bury him in.Slatersteven (talk) 15:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Your description does not comport at all with the portions of the dispute I reviewed. EllenCT (talk) 15:23, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Well all I can do is judge what I saw as a party to part of it. What So which racist, nationalist, fascist, discriminatory disinformation did they manage to get past his vigilance?Slatersteven (talk) 15:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I was going to reply in more detail, but since I saw your threat to suppress my opinions you left on my talk page, I'll just repeat what I asked in January: Why doesn't Trump's intro state his record low approval rating? Why doesn't it describe his record low rating among journalist fact-checkers? Why doesn't it convey the Trump administration's record number of criminal indictments? Why is it silent on the record number of resignations under Trump? EllenCT (talk) 17:35, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The intro of any article merely summarizes major points made in the article and all the points you touched on are in the article itself, but may not be in the intro itself as consensus may have deemed they fall short of UNDUE, especially for what should a neutral treatise in one of our BLPs of a very public figure.--MONGO 17:53, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Approval ratings change, regardless of who it is with (also what the hell are "journalist fact-checkers" is this even a thing?). Have there been a record number of criminal indictments? ( I count 5, which is less then bush). So then we have record number of resignations, here you now have a fact. No idea why it is not there, care to link to the discussion so I can see what reasons were given for its exclusion?Slatersteven (talk) 17:46, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

See Donald Trump#False statements, the second paragraph under Donald Trump#Campaign rhetoric, [12], and [13]. Why would you think that those removing any of these highly noteworthy facts from summarization in the biography's introduction have ever given any valid reasons for excluding them? Isn't Mongo's personal position that these record-breaking statistics among 45 US presidents are simply "UNDUE" good enough for you? EllenCT (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

No, as you said "trump administration", not "Russian interference". So not what a some Russian did has nothing to do with the lead of the Trump article, only what he has done (or maybe those acting on his orders). Also I think I asked not "provide me with proof any of this is true" I said" show me were there was a discussion to keep this out of a lead". So I shall rephrase the question (and hopefully make it a bit ore clear.

Can you provide proof that there have been attempts made to keep information of of the Donald page relating to the matters you have raised here?Slatersteven (talk) 18:54, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Right.--MONGO 17:51, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

...because not being allowed to discuss the potential motivations of Wikipedia editors[14] is soooo hard on EllenCT. Perhaps we should go back to the well and ask for an additional topic ban prohibiting her complaining about her topic ban other than at the normal places where one makes an appeal to have a topic ban lifted? --Guy Macon (talk) 19:08, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I assume this is satire.Slatersteven (talk) 08:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

The "soooo hard" bit is sarcasm (which is subtly different from satire), but the additional topic ban is, I think, worth discussing. I am, however, biased by the fact that I find EllenCT's habit of coatracking comments on how unfair her her topic ban was on pretty much any discussion of any topic ban anywhere to be incredibly annoying. Thus I think someone else should weigh the actual amount of disruption it causes. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm sorry you are so annoyed, disappointed that your reaction to being annoyed is to demand censorship, and revolted that you use such inaccurate hyperbole to describe my abstention from participating over the past year, but unsurprised that such bullying and harassment is still tolerated and encouraged here. EllenCT (talk) 15:19, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

                      Trollometer 
   
   0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    10
   ___________________________________________________
   |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |    |
   ---------------------------------------------------
        ^
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   Oooh! Barely a one! 
   Sorry, EllenCT.
   Try a little harder next time.
   Thanks for playing!
   
   --Guy Macon (talk) 21:18, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

From DSM-5 (2013): Normative stress reactions. When bad things happen, most people get upset. This is not an adjustment disorder. The diagnosis should ... be made when the magnitude of the distress exceeds what would normally be expected (which may vary in different cultures). --Dervorguilla (talk) 05:03, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

Now, now. Science has no place in Wikipedia discussions. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:49, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

A great idea

This relates to the section above User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#Create copies of Wikipedia operating under slightly different rules and policies

A for-profit company, Wikisoft will be starting a "Wikipedia" for businesses Wikisoft Corp is Launching New “Wikipedia” for Business and Business Professionals (sorry this is a PR announcement, but I couldn't find a reliable source). They promise 200 million articles on businesses, execs, product lines, brands, etc., at the site www.wikiprofile.com by mid-August.

I'm not sure about their business model - it could be supported by advertising, but I suspect they'll be taking payments from the companies who want a "profile" posted. Others have tried something like this, but this company looks at least minimally competent - they can put together a press release.

Why is this a great idea? Well the folks who want to advertise on-Wiki now have a place to go and not bother us anymore. We won't have to deal anymore with biased articles on food trucks, real estate companies in Singapore known for their beautiful websites, or financial scammers. Wikiprofile might even put a few paid editing companies out of business. Of course there will be some businesses who would want to get a freebie here, rather than a paid-for profile there, but at this point is should be obvious to everybody that they are just trying to take something from an educational charity that they can properly pay for elsewhere.

Could we perhaps do something to encourage Wikiprofile? Maybe steer a few potential customers their way? Congratulate them in the press for their wonderful idea? Post their contact info at WP:Paid?

There is one question I do think they'll have to answer before the site becomes successful - why would any readers go to a site consisting of 200 million adverts?

BTW - I'm not being paid by these guys (or anyone else) and I have no COI (except as explained above - I'd like them to take away some of our problem articles)

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 03:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Unless they're as heavily favoured by Google search results as Wikipedia is I expect that this will do virtually nothing to stop the shameless promoters from coming here. After all, the primary reason they come here is for (a) our Alexa ranking and (b) Google's putting it at the top of almost every relevant search. —Jeremy v^_^v ^Bori! 03:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Yes, Google's algorithms favor websites with (generally) informative and comprehensive original content such as Wikipedia, as opposed to rehashed spam like wikipromowhatever.com. Who will write these 200 million articles, and what will prevent this site from becoming a vast garbage dump? Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Best guesses a) corporate PR folks, b) nothing. So there are a few kinks to work out. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 08:33, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Whoops! I withdraw anything above that might seem like a recommendation or anything of the sort. There's an unusual IPO associated with this and I wouldn't want to say anything here that encourages (or otherwise) people to invest in that. I'll investigate further and be back. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:11, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

There is lots to question here, especially with the IPO. First I'll say that I'm not a lawyer and I'm not giving any advice, just exploring an unusual situation. Some basics

• Wikisoft's address is 315 Montgomery Street, 1600 San Francisco, CA a 4 minute walk from the WMF. It might be a mail box only type address (located on the 9th and 10th floors) because I don't think the building has 16 floors (though they might have just skipped a few floor numbers)
• The IPO is unusual in that
  • it is not open to US investors (unless they are accredited)
  • they have already set an issue price
  • they say the stock will be traded on "OTC Stock Market" (note the capital letters) which is not a proper noun and could refer to any of several "exchanges" including the pink sheets (unlisted market)
  • no investment banker is mentioned
  • they don't offer to send you a prospectus
  • information on one webpage contradicts info in the press release, e.g. one page says they (will?) have 328M+ searchable content pages vs. the 200 million stated in the press release.

There are more oddities, so I'll just say that I personally will stay as far away from this company as possible. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:10, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

yeah they are probably violating a few securities laws there. Jytdog (talk) 17:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Alternate proposal

I wonder if we should do a SPLIT of Wikipedia, between a) pop culture and b) everything else.

Wherein "pop culture" =

a) Any event in the last three years (!)

b) any company, product, or service created or published in the last three years

c) Sports

d) Television, movies, video, video games

Can you imagine how different NPP would be? How different ANI would be? Zowie. Jytdog (talk) 17:07, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Even a simple rule prohibiting anything less than seven days old would prevent a boatload of crap. If readers knew (from a notice on the front page) that everything on Wikipedia was at least a week out of date, they would go elsewhere to get their breaking news. Like maybe Wikinews or Wiki Tribune... :) You shouldn't expect an encyclopedia to cover something that happened yesterday. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:13, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

I've got some sympathy for this proposal, but the idea of splitting off very roughly half our content into another encyclopedia isn't going to be implemented for at least a year. And it would require a huge amount of work, so I'll sit this one out. I will suggest a name for the split material however: WikiPop.org. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:37, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Or we could just call it "Bubble Pop"... --Guy Macon (talk) 17:09, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I see no way in hell that this would ever happen and I don't intend to try seriously float it anywhere, but it is something I have fantasized about. It would be a much better world. :) Jytdog (talk) 17:44, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, there is no way a radical idea like making Wikipedia into an encyclopedia would ever happen. But we can dream...

-------------------------------------------

(lyrics redacted see here for the lyrics)[15]

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--Guy Macon (talk) 21:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

You can let an engine run on water by exploiting the fact that liquid water is not at thermal equilibrium in the atmosphere. Liquid water spontaneously evaporates as long as the relative humidity is lower than 100%. The maximum work you can extract by reversibly evaporating water is given by the drop in the Gibbs energy. Since water will be in thermal equilibrium with its vapor, the Gibbs energy of water is the same as that of water vapor at 100% humidity. If we treat the vapor as an ideal gas, then it follows that the Gibbs energy of the vapor at a humidity of r is lower than that of the vapor at 100% humidity by -NkT Log(r), where N is the number of molecules in the vapor. So, the amount of work you can extract from 1 liter of water at 20 C at 60% relative humidity is about 6.9 *10^4 Joules. Count Iblis (talk) 12:16, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

One effect would be that the search engine rankings of "Wikipedia the encyclopedia" would eventually fall sharply. All our articles' rankings benefit from the massive views the pop culture ones produce. Johnbod (talk) 15:37, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I am dubious. The search engine algorithms are a lot more sophisticated than that. A single link from a page at harvard.edu can count more than a thousand links from Kim Kardashian fan sites. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:07, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm interested in bringing this to wide attention in the community

This tweet leads you to information about an upcoming vote in the European Parliament which is very important.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:50, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Jimbo Wales why are they choosing to police this now?--5 albert square (talk) 15:06, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Pressure from the as-ever overreaching copyright lobby, I would say.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

[ec]

• European Copyright Law Isn't Great. It Could Soon Get a Lot Worse.
• Updated position paper: Article 13 remains a terrible idea and needs to be deleted
• Copyright wars are damaging the health of the internet
• Article 13 could "destroy the internet as we know it": What is it, why is it controversial and what will it mean for memes?
• EU censorship machines and link tax laws are nearing the finish line
• European Copyright Leak Exposes Plans to Force the Internet to Subsidize Publishers
• Text of the proposal: English Other languages and formats

Especially troubling for Wikipedia is the proposed link tax which allows large media corporations to charge Wikipedia licensing fees for posting links through a new type of copyright. It would also require that we install software (presumably written by the copyright owners) to monitor edits and censor them if the computer program detects copyrighted content. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:48, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I'd say that's going outwith what can be policed. I can't see it being passed because I would imagine that is going to be near enough impossible for websites to police especially the likes of Facebook, Twitter etc. It's going to present a nightmare for the Commons admins!--5 albert square (talk) 16:23, 2 June 2018 (UTC)

I am being told that it is very likely to pass unless a lot of noise is made quite quickly.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:30, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Copyright monopsonists. Europeans click here: https://saveyourinternet.eu EllenCT (talk) 16:57, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

This really couldn't be more urgent as far as WP is concerned. Let's just consider the filtering proposal. Under this rule:

• Sites that make material available to the public are required to filter according to rightsholder-supplied lists of copyrighted content

• Even if they do filter, they are still liable if infringing material is uploaded and made available

• If you believe that you have been unfairly blocked, your only remedy is to contest the block with the host, who is under no obligation to consider your petition

• There are no penalties for falsely claiming copyright on material -- I could upload all of Wikipedia to a Wordpress blocklist and no one could quote Wikipedia until Wordpress could be convinced to remove my claims over all that text, and Wikimedia and the individual contributors would have no basis to punish me for my copyfraud

• There was a counterproposal that is MUCH more reasonable and solves the rightsholders' stated problem: they claim that they are unable to convince platforms to remove infringing material when the copyright rests with the creator, not the publisher (e.g. Tor Books can't get Amazon to remove infringing copies of my books because I'm the rightsholder, not them); under this counterproposal, publishers would have standing to seek removal unless creators specifically objected to it

• There is a notional exception for Wikipedia that carves out nonprofit, freely available collaborative encyclopedias. This does get WP a lot of latitude, but Article 13 still has grossly adverse effects on WP's downstream users -- anyone who mirrors or quotes WP relies on the safe harbours that Article 13 removes. Think also of all the material on EU hosts that is linked to from Wikipedia References sections -- all of that could disappear through fraud or sloppiness, making the whole project (and the whole internet) more brittle

We have until June 20 before the committee votes, and then it will go to plenary, either during July 4 week or in late September (depending on whether it makes it in before the summer recess). I and EFF am really interested in helping to organise a European online blackout to contact MEPs on this, and we need an anchor. If EU Wikipedia sites blacked out for a day to alert Europeans to this foolishness in our Parliament, it would be enormously powerful and could stem the tide. Doctorow (talk) 19:44, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Yet Another Monkey Selfie Copyright Thread

I'd rather talk about the threat to free culture being posed by the European copyright proposal.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:52, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'd have felt better about opposing new copyright protection if WMF had done more to support the person responsible for the monkey selfie. Even if it was to hire him to create promotional material for fundraising. But sticking it to him makes me rather insensitive to WMF's own concerns. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.98.208 (talk) 02:12, 3 June 2018 (UTC) That is my take on this. I am kind of reminded of when Games Workshop whines about IP infringement. Maybe if we did more to help out those whose work (and yes he, not the monkey) spend the money on buying the kit and spent the time setting it up), then we would not now be facing a backlash from the peoples whose livelihoods we are affecting. It is just a shame that what will happen is that people like him will still not really have the wherefore all to fight, and the only people who will really benefit are the ones who do not really need it (like the GW copyright trolls of this world).Slatersteven (talk) 15:50, 3 June 2018 (UTC) I agree. The actions of the Wikimedia Foundation in the Slater/monkey selfie case were off-putting, to say the least, and I cannot help but feel that this appeal from Jimbo is quite incongruous with the stance taken in that matter. — Javert2113 (talk; please ping me in your reply on this page) 01:02, 4 June 2018 (UTC) Nice coat-rack you have there, 98.165.98.208. I like the way you skillfully changed the subject from a proposed EU law to an already-decided court case involving US and UK law. Mind if I hang some nice abortion, gun control and Trump on your coat-rack? There appears to be plenty of room! --Guy Macon (talk) 02:05, 4 June 2018 (UTC) Sorry, Jimbo. Good point, Guy Macon. I shouldn't have engaged; that was an off-topic comment. I'll just get back to making articles about the new Italian cabinet. Cheers! — Javert2113 (talk; please ping me in your reply on this page) 02:09, 4 June 2018 (UTC) Brining up an appalling position on previous copyright issues are the exact reason why new copyright laws are proposed. Why you think that's a "coatrack" is ridiculous. Stop shitting on content creators and there will be no need to create laws to protect the victims of those policies. People believe we need new laws precisely because previous cases under existing law did not end with justice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:1300:16E:34A7:6910:3BC5:8CF8 (talk) 03:06, 4 June 2018 (UTC) The question was asked "why now" this is one answer to that question. Ignoring the "whys" of a new law means you will also not address the concerns of those who support it (another reason for the "now", they have waited for us to fix this ourselves and we have not done so). As with a number of other laws it is (I suspect) a case of they have allowed us to police ourselves and now do not think we are ever going to (like the smoker who used to sit in the no smoking area declaring "well its not against the law is it!"). That is why this is both relevant, pertinent and not a place to hang your coat.Slatersteven (talk) 09:18, 4 June 2018 (UTC) That's a non-sequitur, simply saying 'why copyright' demonstrates no connection. Are there any RS that relate this proposed law to that case? Alanscottwalker (talk) 09:46, 4 June 2018 (UTC) This case is particular no, but then I was using it only as an example of the kind of issue (As I did with the smoking ban as well). Now maybe I am wrong and this is not to tackle issues of small "publishes" having their work used for free. But it is designed to target (for example) photographs. So whilst it may not be directly influenced by the one case, it is clear its aim is situations where (for example) photographs are used without permission. That is why I did only only raise this issue, it is about an attitude ("well its not illegal is it"), not a specific case.Slatersteven (talk) 10:05, 4 June 2018 (UTC) The irony is that this will not really do that (as I think I said) it will just enable the big boys (and yes I am afraid to say Wikipedias actions put it in that category now) to copyright troll. It will do sod all to protect the little guy. But I suspect many who support it (and proposed it) think it will. To make it clear, I do not support it because it does not go far enough to protect the one man band whose works goes on to become a meme but who does not benefit from it. But anything that makes it clear that you cannot just take peoples hard work and use it for your own benefit is a good thing.Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 4 June 2018 (UTC) I'm not sure what irony there is: There is a "public domain" correct? The public domain belongs to all people -- restricting the public domain, lessening the public domain, enclosing the public domain, means it is taken from the people. Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:29, 4 June 2018 (UTC) Indeed, and this has absolutely nothing to do with the monkey selfie case. (To reiterate the situation there: photographs taken by monkeys are not copyright to the monkey, nor to the owner of the monkey, nor to the owner of the camera. People may disagree with that, although I think the law is correct on this point.) Broadly, we know that there are always people who want to expand the reach and scope and meaning of copyright, and they are not typically small publishers, but giant companies who wish to suppress free and remix culture, or in fact to simply suppress speech that they don't like. Have a read of this for some sad examples.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:36, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually, the photographer did, indeed, end up with a valid copyright (albeit not a US copyright it seems). Just as photographers who use trip-wires to take photos at night hold valid copyright. PETA admitted such in agreeing to 25% of royalties on the copyright. By so assenting, PETA clearly was agreeing that Slater had right to the royalties. PETA was not arguing that no copyright existed, just that it wanted the simian to officially "own" it, with PETA then garnering 100% of the royalties. Sorry, Jimbo. PETA's case was not about denying that a copyright exists. http://sro.sussex.ac.uk/60116/1/Internet%20Policy%20Review%20-%20The%20monkey%20selfie_%20copyright%20lessons%20for%20originality%20in%20photographs%20and%20internet%20jurisdiction%20-%202016-03-21.pdf Collect (talk) 17:04, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

I believe you are misreading your own reference. It is an academic article arguing that under UK law, if that were shown to be the right jurisdiction, there is an argument (unproven in court) that a copyright could exist. It's certainly interesting, but it is very far from showing that he has a valid copyright. PETA admitting or claiming anything is entirely irrelevant.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 17:16, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

PETA chose the US venue to assert that Naruto had the copyright and that PETA was acting as a legal guardian thereon (pretty loosely). PETA did not assert that no copyright could exist. PETA undertook no actions under UK or EU law asserting that copyright did not exist. The case at hand is the PETA decision. UK and EU law do not require an affirmative court decision that copyright exists. Copyright exists with or without any registration at all. I suggest that you ask counsel whether the UK academic article might give pause if or when Wikipedia is ever forced to back your position in a UK or EU court, as I am not able to guess what those courts would find, as I only know what the scholarly article surmises, but given the status of current copyright revision discussions over there (noting that "there" is "here" for you currently) I think they might tell you to be circumspect, indeed. And this is the exact same position I took here years ago - and no article seems to give me cause to change my opinions thereon. Collect (talk) 20:17, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

Collect, your claim is just wrong and your source does not say that, PETA cannot establish anything, and PETA's track-record on copyright, here, has been a loser. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:33, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Perhaps more essays about download restrictions: Warn people when a back-up download is allowed for personal use, but sending 2nd-hand copies of downloads would violate copyrights, so send only URL addresses to enable other users to download their own backup copies of files, images or videos. There was the infamous case in the U.S. of copies of a Rob Lowe sex tape passed around as gag gifts, but the bigger issue was the guy was reportedly only 17-years-old in the video, as child porn, which implicated the user as a criminal pedophile, and after release from jail, could be forced from their home if near schools, as a registered sex offender for the rest of their lives[!]. Help people understand the potential dangers of downloads passed around as gifts or viral videos. Accidental downloads might be no excuse against criminal charges. Perhaps smarter phones will have a disable-download-key feature to avoid people being arrested for accidental downloads stored on their phones. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:37/12:43, 2 June 2018 (UTC) He was a she and was only 16 (not 17), so a lot of wrong here. Nor have I any idea what this has to do with the new EU law.Slatersteven (talk) 12:58, 2 June 2018 (UTC) I don't think Wikid77 considers little things like "relevance" or "appropriateness" or "coherence" or "sanity" before posting here. Gamaliel (talk) 13:11, 2 June 2018 (UTC) I think they still have the protection of our police state (remember we do not have freedom of speech here).Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 2 June 2018 (UTC)