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References in the Wehrmachtbericht

What is the current/recent consensus in mentioning "References in the Wehrmachtbericht" as an award or honor? My recent removals from battleship articles [1] [2], one of which included the full German text and English translation, were reverted. Defining this as some sort of honor for a ship seems questionable and may need to be treated differently from individuals, since the Wehrmachtbericht also reported routine events such as returning to port or being sunk in battle. –dlthewave ☎ 02:05, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

G'day Dlthewave. My understanding from a good-faith reading of the current Wehrmachtbericht article is that a German historian, Felix Römer, has stated that such mentions were treated as an award. So at least one historian considers them to be such, and it is therefore reasonable to describe them as such. However, the most recent discussion I can find at the NPOV noticeboard indicates that quoting the entry in full is undue, largely because it, as I understand it, was predominantly a propaganda broadcast. I believe that including the fact that the person, unit or ship was mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht (and how many times, as well as noting that it was a propaganda broadcast when it is introduced), is completely reasonable given what Römer apparently says. It may be that we need to develop a brief guideline dealing with this, as it comes up a lot. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:19, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd say the same as PM, except that describing it inline as a propaganda bulletin sounds like editorialising, unless the source describes it as such -- linking it will allow the interested reader to find out the nature of the publication if they don't know already. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:35, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:48, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

This seems to an American to be the direct equivalent of mentioned in dispatches for Commonwealth countries or of citation dans les ordres (citations in the order of the day) for France and at least Belgium. The article on mentions in dispatches focuses on individual awards, but a number of USAF units were cited in French or Belgian orders of the day during WW I and WW II (2 citations results in the award of the Fourragère, undoubtedly an award), so treating references in the Wehrmachtbericht as an award to a ship would seem to be similar. --Lineagegeek (talk) 19:51, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

• @Peacemaker67: Thanks, that was my understanding of the current practice. Perhaps someone with access to full Wehrmachtbericht transcripts or the Römer source can confirm whether the entire broadcast was dedicated to honoring, or if there was a separate portion for more mundane announcements such as a ship returnng to port. –dlthewave ☎ 03:17, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

• MisterBee1966, can you confirm one way or the other please? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:21, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

• sorry I am travelling right now with no access to source. Mutawski and Römer state that units, ships, soldiers were singled out as a military honor and award. To add to that, I think I had sent scans of Römer and the writings of the German Federal Archives (Murawski) to Auntiruth some time agiert. She should be able to confirm my statement here.MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:38, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• No rush, just worth knowing. My understanding is that they were basically a summary of the day's military events from the German perspective, with ships, individuals and units that had done notable things highlighted at the relevant point of the broadcast. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:10, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• Pinging Auntieruth55 re the above. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:11, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• This has also been discussed on the talk page of the Wehrmachtbericht article, which seemed to conclude that it is considered propaganda and not an award or equivalent to MiD. Pinging K.e.coffman as he was the one to bring the article to GA and might have something to add to the discussion. My own opinion is that even if one historian considers it an award, that isn't sufficient to treat it as such for Wikipedia purposes, particularly if other historians have concluded that it's propaganda. Catrìona (talk) 01:49, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Felix Römer and Sönke Neitzel

@Catrìona: thank you for the ping. There are a few related issues here. In the case of the Ernst Lindemann article, the Wehrmachtbericht is used as a source about itself. All of the mentions are cited to the Wehrmachtberichte; this raises issues of due weight.

This edit summary ("see Felix Römer and Söhnke Neitzel, a reference was an award") appears to be at least partially incorrect. I assume MisterBee1966 meant Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing, and Dying when he referred to Neitzel (with co-author Harald Welzer), as MB had added similar material to the Wehrmachtbericht article: diff. Page 78 of the German edition appears to roughly correspond to pages 39–40 in the English edition, in the section "Frame of Reference: War". There, the authors cite "Wehrmacht reports" (note 71, p. 360) to discuss the tone of the reports and how it reflected the "German military canon's orientation around classical martial virtues".

Neitzel & Welzer do not refer to the report as an award or a commendation on pp. 39–40. I do not see in the English edition's surrounding pages anything of this nature, as inserted by MB: The named reference in Wehrmachtbericht lead to the Honor Roll of the Army, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, where soldiers who had performed acts of exceptional military valor, were listed. I would be curious to see what specifically Römer says about the Wehrmachtbericht, as, in my experience, the interpretation of Soldaten in this regard is WP:SYNTH. K.e.coffman (talk) 16:41, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

i see that it has been recently edited...with (some) paragraph(s) removed. not sure if we should delete before we decide.auntieruth (talk) 19:12, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Rather than making assumptions, perhaps we should AGF until MB can provide a quote from the reference in question. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:24, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @Peacemaker67: for waiting. The relevant German quote is taken from the book by Neitzel, Sönke; Welzer, Harald (2011). Soldaten: Protokolle vom Kämpfen, Töten und Sterben [Soldiers: On Fighting, Killing and Dying] (in German). Frankfurt am Main, Germany: S. Fischer Verlag. ISBN 978-3-10-089434-2. On page 78, the authors state the following "Neben dem Eisernen Kreuz und seinen verschiedenen Stufen wurden von Hitler und der Führung der Teilstreitkräfte bald weitere Tapferkeitsauszeichnungen geschaffen - so das Deutsche Kreuz in Gold, das im September 1941 gestiftet wurde, um eine Auszeichnung zur Verfügung zu haben, die zwischen dem Ritterkreuz und dem EK I angesiedelt war. Zudem gab es die Möglichkeit, Soldaten, die außergewöhnliche Taten vollbracht hatten, namentlich im Wehrmachtbericht zu nennen. Daraus erwuchs dann der Gedanke, ein besonderes Ehrenblatt des Heeres, eine Ehrentafel der Kriegsmarine und ein Ehrenblatt der Luftwaffe zu schaffen, wo Soldaten mit hervorstechenden Tapferkeitstaten genannt wurden." Which translates to something like "In addition to the Iron Cross and its various stages, Hitler and the leadership of the armed forces soon created further bravery awards - such as the German Cross in Gold, which was donated in September 1941 to have an award situated between the Knight's Cross and the Iron Cross 1st Class. In addition, there was the prospect to reference soldiers by name, who had done extraordinary deeds, in the Wehrmacht report. From this arose the idea of creating a special honor roll of the army, an honor board of the navy, and an honor sheet of the Luftwaffe, where soldiers with salient bravery were named." Unless this violates copyright regulations, I can send a scan of this page to anyone interested. @Auntieruth55: I believe you speak German, does my translation adequately reflect the German verbiage? Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:41, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966:, yes I think this is reasonable translation. I don't see it as a routine report (ship returns to port, etc.), but rather as an extraordinary report; it may have had routine elements (ships returning to port), but clearly it seems to me that it at least portions of it were used to honor extraordinary acts or accomplishments. I'd paraphrase the translation thus (for inclusion in the article): "In addition to the Iron Cross and its various stages, Hitler and the leadership of the armed forces created additional awards for bravery - such as the German Cross in Gold, which was established in September 1941 to have an award situated between the Knight's Cross and the Iron Cross 1st Class. In addition, the Wehrmacht report also allowed the possibility to reference, by name, soldiers who had accomplished extraordinary deeds. From this arose the idea of creating a special honor roll of the army, an honor board of the navy, and an honor sheet of the Luftwaffe, where soldiers with relevant bravery were named." auntieruth (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

This quote mentions the naming of individual soldiers but it does not support the idea that routine news reports, such as the mention of a ship returning to port or being destroyed in battle, were meant to confer some sort of honor upon the subject. It seems that it is being construed to treat the entire contents of the Wehrmachtbericht as a sort of honor roll. –dlthewave ☎ 15:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks MisterBee1966 that is helpful, and I think clears things up for people. This appears to only refer to people, however, not to mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht being an honour for a ship, for example, to justify a Wehrmachtbericht mention being included in a ship article. I'll note that the Wehrmachtbericht article currently only refers to a mention being an honour for people, not ships, units, air wings etc. Is there a reliable source for the latter being the case? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:39, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Peacemaker67, you are correct, to address your last question we have to look into another source. The book by Murawski, Erich (1962). Schriften des Bundesarchivs—Der deutsche Wehrmachtbericht 1939 – 1945, vom 1.7.1944 bis zum 9.5.1945 [Writings of the German Federal Archives—The German Wehrmacht Report 1939 – 1945, from 1 July 1944 to 9 May 1945] (in German) (2nd ed.). Boppoard am Rhein, Germany: Harald Boldt Verlag. OCLC 906100905 discusses this in section "Der Inhalt des Wehrmachtbericht" [The Content of the Wehrmachtbericht] (pages 67 to 102), in particular pages 68 and 69 are of relevance here. On page 68, a numbered list gives an overview of the content. With respect to the Kriegsmarine, item #2 "Seekrieg (auf und unter dem Wasser und aus der Luft) auf allen Meeren" [War at Sea (surfaced and submerged and from the air) on every ocean] sums it up. A quote from page 87 "...ehrenvolle Nennung von Einzelkämpfern und Einheiten..." [...honorary named references of single combatants and units..."], on page 88–89 "Die ehrenvolle Erwähnung im Wehrmachtbericht wurde allgemein mit Recht als eine besondere Auszeichnung empfunden" [The honorary named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht Report was universally and rightly regarded as a special distinction]. Again, unless this violates copyright regulations, I can send a scan of this page to anyone interested. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Given he himself was a leading propagandist for Nazi Germany, bias is to be expected in how Murawski describes the Wehrmachtbericht. This appears to be underscored by criticism levelled at his book on the Wehrmachtbericht (from the de article) that he approached his subject in an "uncritical" way. Is that a correct translation? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:08, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that is a fair summary Peacemaker67. The criticism was expressed by Daniel Uziel. Are you saying that "uncritical" equates to "unreliable"? Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 09:32, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Not unless there were aspects of WP:RS that weren't met, and I don't know anything about Harald Boldt Verlag. What I would say is that he needs to be treated as a WP:BIASED source, so it probably is appropriate to use WP:INTEXT attribution for his opinion about the Wehrmachtbericht. Along the lines of "According to former Wehrmacht propaganda officer and later German Federal Archives archivist (or some similar description) Erich Murawski...". Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:50, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

"The honorable mention in the Wehrmachtbericht (...) as a special award" seems to be more appropriate than "The honorary named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht (...) as a special distinction" here. Alexpl (talk) 10:01, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

In a military context, "award" usually means you were physically given something (usually something to wear), which I don't believe applies here. I agree that "mention" is a good way to describe it though. I suggest "a mention of a person, ship or unit in the Wehrmachtbericht was considered a special distinction". Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:12, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

It is worth noting that there is an English edition of Neitzel/Welzer: Soldaten - On Fighting, Killing and Dying: The Secret Second World War Tapes, published by Simon & Schuster in 2012. The translation is by Jefferson Chase. That particular paragraph that MisterBee1966 has quoted is only to be found in the German edition. It is omitted in the Englisch edition. Besides, as Neitzel/Welzer also make clear in their discussion, awards "brought social prestige and created intentional social pressure. [...] Nazi propaganda constantly featured the bearers of awards for extraordinary bravery, and Goebbels made a handful of them into full-fledged media stars. [...] The symbolism of and policies with which awards were bestowed were designed to create a sense of social acknowledgment, and this anchored military values deep within soldiers’ frames of reference." So simply to speak of a mention in the Wehrmachtbericht as being "an honour" tells less than half of the story. --Assayer (talk) 12:00, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Assayer, I agree to your statement. The discussion originated in the question on whether a "named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht" was an award/distinction held in high esteem or not. I believe the various authors/historians confirm that a "named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht" indeed was an award, with all the consequences you mentioned, which also should be addressed in the article. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 12:30, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I think that the repeated discussion about whether this was an award or not jumps too short, because it touches upon the issue of propaganda. Particularly in the case of Lindemann Holger Afflerbach's "Mit wehender Fahne untergehen" (VfZ49/2001 [3]) would provide some much needed context. (I mentioned that, e.g., during the recent arbitration case Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/German war effort/Evidence#Evidence presented by Assayer). Other than that it should be clear, that the Wehrmachtbericht was not simply an "information bulletin", but war propaganda. Generally speaking I would argue, if those kinds of awards are not covered by RS, by which I do not mean militaria like KC recipients' dictionaries (Scherzer, Fellgiebel, Thomas/Wegmann, Dörr and so forth), there is no particular need to include them in a Wikipedia article.----Assayer (talk) 15:03, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again, we have Römer, Neitzel, Welzer and Murawski referring to the "named reference in the Wehrmachtbericht" as an award and/or distinction, while you argue, for all the arguments mentioned, it does not fall into that category. Question, in order to avoid WP:SYNTH, do we require a reliable source to support this point of view? MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:30, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

That’s a misrepresentation of my argument. I consider the question ‘’award or not award’’ to be futile. If this “culture of military medals” is not put into context, “the German military canon’s orientation around classical martial virtues” (Neitzel/Welzer) is merely reproduced. More than 2,000 German sailors lost their lives under Lindemann’s command in a fight without any chance of inflicting damage on the enemy. In that perspective, Lindemann’s posthumous mention is not really notable. The literature on the Bismarck is sizable. How many reliable sources refer to Lindemann's mentioning in the Wehrmachtbericht, let alone all the details concerning his Knight's Cross?--Assayer (talk) 23:19, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Some factual corrections are required: Lindemann was not in command and the German (official) historians have briefly assessed Admiral Lütjen's decision to fight to the death and their remarks are summarised in his article. The conclusion was and is that selling oneself dearly had military value. I seem to remember HMS Rodney escaped one of Bismarck's salvos by a very small margin. Given Lindemann's influence on the entire operation was reduced by the overpowering command style of Lutjens, I struggle to see why Lindemann was awarded the Knight's Cross at all. Dapi89 (talk) 20:46, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Ships

Getting back to my original question about the ships: Based on this discussion, the cruiser Deutschland's mention clearly amounts to a routine report and should not be mentioned as an honor in the article. Battleship Bismarck's three mentions (an "account of the Battle of the Denmark Strait", "a brief account of the ship's destruction" and "an exaggerated claim that Bismarck had sunk a British destroyer and shot down five aircraft") are a bit more open to interpretation. Do we have a non-OR way of distinguishing which mentions might be considered honors and which are routine reports, preferably using secondary sources? –dlthewave ☎ 18:17, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Just applying a common sense criteria about it containing some sort of element of praise in the entry seems the way to go. Saying that the ship had been conducting a trade war in the Atlantic and has now come home is pretty routine and non-praiseworthy to me. If it said what tonnage she had sunk, that would be a different matter. The entry for Lutzow says that the ship bravely supported a garrison, so that would be appropriate in my view. It is a matter of weight. Personally I'm not sure about whether the actual transcripts are undue or whether just saying that there was a mention, the date, and what for, would be a better approach. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:36, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

The Wehrmachtbericht contains a registry for all named references. This registry is divided into multiple sections. The first, for single combatants and lists name, rank and date. The second, for units beginning with the Army (Heer) listing the unit (division, regiment, battalion, etc.) and date, the Navy (Kriegsmarine) listing (ship, u-boat, flotilla, etc.) and date, the Air Force (Luftwaffe) listing (wings, groups, air corps, etc.) and date, and Waffen-SS listing (division, regiment, batallion, etc.) and date. I was under the impression that it is community consensus to not include the original transcript of the Wehrmachtbericht, and to limit the information on Wikipedia to date and fact that a person/unit had been given this award/distinction. In consequence, I would expect to find an entry on the cruiser Deutschland/Lützow article that the ship was named in the Wehrmachtbericht on 25 January 1940 and 9 February 1945, avoiding any dispute over how and why. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:51, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. I think there has to be a praiseworthy reason for the mention for it to be included. I don't see that for Deutschland because that is basically the same as a BBC News report of a ship returning to port, but I do for Lützow, as it actually praises something about what the ship did. Surely, to be treated as meritorious thing, there must be something meritorious about it, not just returning from a mission, without anything said about success. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:59, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Coming late to this. I think it should be all or nothing (and I favour not at all). To only include some we get into what were significant mentions and which were routine, in the example given Deutschland's raiding cruise was successful and presumably the successes were not mentioned due to secrecy reasons, conversely I don't see Lutzow's shore bombardment of any special significance at all Lyndaship (talk) 09:19, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Disagree. There is nothing in the transcript that indicates that Deutschland's cruise was successful. Assuming that its success was not mentioned for secrecy reasons is OR, whereas Lutzow's shore bombardment is clearly being praised in the transcript. Chalk and cheese. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 09:31, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

That's why I said all or none of the mentions in Wehrmachtbericht should be considered for inclusion. Then there's no need to make a judgment if that mention is delicious natural organic cheddar or cruddy factory processed cheese Lyndaship (talk) 18:42, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Unless MisterBee1966 can help us find the registry that specifically lists "honorary" references, any attempt to sort them ourselves would be OR. I support the "nothing" approach unless an honorary mention is covered by a secondary source. If we decide to list all of the references, it should not be in an honors/awards section. –dlthewave ☎ 18:22, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

I can scan the registry (soldiers, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe and Waffen-SS) and send to anyone interested. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

If an incident or (honorary) mention was notable, it would be covered in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, wouldn't it? There should be no need to turn to the unreliable Wehrmachtbericht in the first place, even if you merely skim the register.--Assayer (talk) 20:00, 19 October 2018 (UTC)

That is not what we are talking about here, and you are once again misusing the term "notability", which is about whether we have an article on a subject, not what detail should be included in an article. We are talking about the mentions being a distinction. Given this has been an issue for some time, I think we need some proposals to decide what to do regarding these mentions. Something along the lines of inclusion (with parameters) or non-inclusion. I'll put something together. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

• Yes but info that are trivial or indiscriminate do not belong per WP:What Wikipedia is not, e.g. WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:INDISCRIMINATE. These might be of some help. -Fnlayson (talk) 01:48, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at WT:Ships#Non-notable crew touching on similar issues. fyi - wolf 01:59, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd be cautious of relying on the language qua language. Given the way USN sub patrol reports were endorsed, "bravely defending a garrison" could be standing offshore watching them be shelled into oblivion, or overrun. (Patrol reports were full of "exceptional"s & "extraordinary"s that are cringe-worthy as historiography; "outstanding" effectively has the value of "yes".) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura}

Indeed, even if I did not use the term "notable" in line with its strict Wikipedian definition, which is not the same as a "misuse", I might as well refer to WP:NOTEVERYTHING to make my point.--Assayer (talk) 12:13, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposals regarding mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht

In the hope of establishing a consensus about what if anything should be done regarding mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht, here are a couple of proposals regarding their handling. These are just my crack at the two positions that seem common in the above discussion, feel free to add to them, modify the wording, or propose additional ones. I have concentrated on the issue of WP:UNDUE as it seems to me that WP:NPOV is the most relevant policy, but if you feel that WP:VERIFY or WP:OR are relevant, please raise this and explain how you see them impacting on this issue. As this is basically a yes/no question, I've drafted it for simple approval voting. To make it easier to assess consensus, please keep the discussion in the discussion subsections for each proposal. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:44, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

May I suggest making this an RfC? As it stands now, the outcome will be the non-binding opinion of a Wikiproject and not full community consensus. –dlthewave ☎ 21:41, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Sure. Done. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:14, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I've advertised this to WikiProjects Ships, Aviation, History and Germany. Feel free to advertise anywhere else that might be appropriate. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:23, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

A third option seems to arise from the discussion above: that mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht only be noted where a RS focused on the person/unit specifically says that this was done as honour. This would solve the problem of routine reports being noted (I imagine that some units and senior officers were frequently mentioned), as well as avoiding the risk of undue weight being placed on this propaganda broadcast. I've WP:BOLDly added this as the new option 2 (as it seems to be a half-way point between the others), which I hope is OK. Nick-D (talk) 04:31, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

That's great Nick, thanks. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:47, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

#1 Inclusion in relevant articles with caveats

That mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht may be included in relevant articles on the basis that such a mention was a distinction for people within the Wehrmacht, per the Felix Römer source above, and a distinction for units, ships etc per the Erich Murawski source (which is biased and should be treated as such). Any mentions should be in summary form, including only the date of the broadcast and a brief summary of what was said about the subject of the mention, and should also mention that the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast. Full transcripts and translations should not be included, as there is an existing consensus that this would be giving them undue weight given the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast.

Support (1)

# auntieruth (talk) 19:31, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

1. Dapi89 (talk) 20:49, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (1)

• Suggestion: We are limited to what we can say by the sources, but if the vote is in favour of full-inclusion of the German text, and if possible, I'd prefer a standard description advising the reader of what they are reading. The reports contain propaganda certainly, and inaccurate information, whether deliberately or in genuine error, but also the point of the reports were to improve German morale and increase fanaticism in the Wehrmacht, and I think that should be driven home. Dapi89 (talk) 20:58, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

#2 Inclusion in relevant articles when highlighted by a reliable source

That mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht may be included in relevant articles when a reliable source which is focused on the relevant person or unit specifically states that this mention in the Wehrmachtbericht was an honour.

As in option 1, any mentions should be in summary form, including only the date of the broadcast and a brief summary of what was said about the subject of the mention, and should also mention that the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast. Full transcripts and translations should not be included, as there is an existing consensus that this would be giving them undue weight given the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast.

Support (2)

1. Nick-D (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
2. dlthewave talk 05:40, 21 October 2018 (UTC) (changed to #3)
3. I am giving my tentative support to this. Minimal usage of Nazi propaganda, barring no usage, is the best. –Vami♜_IV♠ 05:49, 21 October 2018
4. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
5. Lyndaship (talk) 12:06, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
6. this option appeared after i had tegistered support for first one. this is a much better choice. auntieruth (talk) 01:13, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
7. Support this - under the caveat that this should be strong source (e.g. see WP:HISTRS), and that if this a widely covered individual/ship/unit - that per WP:DUE a multitude of such sources should exist - e.g. if this were say, Rommel, one would need to show a significant body of serious work referring to this - as opposed to a marginal notability article in which a single HISTRS source would suffice for DUE. Icewhiz (talk) 06:41, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
8. Generally, if something is covered by a reliable source, it should be included. Parsecboy (talk) 12:07, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
9. - wolf 23:56, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (2)

In my experience, the Wehrmachtbericht is rarely raised in the general literature on World War II and the Germany military's role in the war. Only specialised, and often fairly obscure, works ever raise the prospect of mentions in it being noteworthy for named units or individuals (vastly more weight is placed on medals and tributes from respected figures). As such, I think that mentions should only be noted when a reliable source which is focused on the individual or unit (and not a general listing of Wehrmachtbericht mentions, Nazi German era military honours or similar) raises the mention and states that it was intended as some kind of honour. I think that this goes to the points raised in the discussion above as well as earlier discussions about differing views put forward by historians, and the prominence and reliability of sources. Nick-D (talk) 05:00, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

I tend to agree with this. It seems pretty obscure, and I haven't seen mention of it outside WP, so I don't think this proposal will support inclusion on a lot of articles. Where a reliable source mentions it, for example in a biographical sketch of an officer or soldier, or in a section of a book about German ships or a particular air group, I see no reason why a brief summary could not be included, so long as it is clear that the Wehrmachtbericht was the daily Wehrmacht propaganda broadcast. I am opposed to a blanket ban, as that smacks of censorship. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

What would be the ramifications of this proposal? Comparing the German Wikipedia to the English Wikipedia, I see that in many instances the current approach of listing occurrences and date is very comparable, see de:Werner Mölders versus en:Werner Mölders, de:Adolf Galland versus en:Adolf Galland, compare also the German and English articles of Erich Hartmann, Günther Rall. MisterBee1966 (talk) 11:58, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

@MisterBee1966: since no one commented, I'll respond. My understanding that these mentions would come out under this proposal, as being cited to the Wehrmachtberichte themselves. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:12, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Initially favouring no mention as it is clearly propaganda and I feel the RS claiming it was an honour is insufficient to prove that it was I am won over to the above proposal on the grounds that we shouldn't censor and it makes readers aware that the Wehrmachtbericht existed Lyndaship (talk) 12:10, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

The problem is: How do we define RS (see the point also raised by K.e.coffman below)? Some will argue, and have done so in the past, that specialised and obscure literature, even memoirs and the Wehrmachtbericht itself, are RS when it comes to the "fact" that someone has been mentioned. What Nick-D seems to have in mind, and maybe Peacemaker as well, is probably closer to WP:HSC. Anyway, that should be clarified. Furthermore, historical scholarship may mention that someone was mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht, but does not provide a summary of what was said. How will you come up with such a summary? That amounts to OR by Wikipedians who will turn to the Wehrmachtbericht themselves. Does this proposal also affect the listing of the Wehrmachtbericht mentions under Awards or is it confined to the possible inclusion in the main text? By including a "brief summary" the Wehrmachtbericht is also highlighted in comparison to other awards like the Knight's Cross. By the same logic one could argue that we need brief summaries of why the KC was awarded and so forth. Two more things are worth noting: First, neither Felix Römer nor Neitzel/Welzer are writing biographies of individual soldiers. It seems quite odd to use them as references to legitimize the inclusion of the Wehrmachtbericht in individual biographies. Second, in this whole context it seems odd to speak of "censorship", not at least because the Wehrmachtbericht itself was heavily censored.--Assayer (talk) 12:54, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

My intent with specifying that reliable sources focused on the individual/unit are needed was to prevent circular referencing to directory-style listings and the Wehrmachtbericht itself. If such a RS includes reference to a mention and states that it was an honour, I don't see why there's a need to quibble over it? Nick-D (talk) 08:54, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

That was also my understanding of the proposal, and given Nick is its proponent, I fail to see why this discussion would not be taken into account as part of the consensus, assuming this proposal was the consensus position. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:57, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I've never seen Die Deutschen Kriegsschiffe, which has been my primary source in writing articles on German warships, mention the Wehrmachtbericht. Their histories of ships are generally fairly detailed, and if they didn't see fit to include the reports, I would be hard pressed to argue that they should be mentioned. Of course this question extends (significantly) beyond just warships, but that's my 2 cents. Parsecboy (talk) 12:12, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

I appreciate the intention. But what are RS in this context? A productive author like Ralf Schumann, to name only but one example, publishing with VDM Heinz Nickel, certainly never misses such a mention. Günter Wegmann not only authored several comprehensive dictionaries of KC recipients, but also edited a complete edition of the Wehrmachtbericht. Their publications are used in several articles. And who will provide the brief summary of what was said about the subject of the mention, if it is not provided by a secondary source? Given how controversial discussions about the reliability of sources have been in the past, this proposal potentially supports inclusion on a lot of articles.--Assayer (talk) 14:26, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

For clarity, what I am suggesting is that an article on a fighter pilot might say "On 21 May 1941, Schmidt was mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht, the daily Wehrmacht propaganda broadcast, to mark his 50th aerial victory." A brief summary in sentence fragment form would be all that is needed, ie "to mark his 50th aerial victory". Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: do you have an RS in mind from which such material could be sourced? --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:15, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

No. I'm not a specialist in this area, so I don't have such a source in mind. But I don't think it is impossible that such a source exists, so believe we should provide for that eventuality. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:42, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

We shouldn't be providing for eventualities, though. The outcome of this discussion (as with any) should based on the available sources which have been brought forth. If the body of published material changes, or if editors discover forgotten sources, then it would be appropriate to revisit. –dlthewave ☎ 13:08, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

• @Parsecboy: Generally, if something is covered by a reliable source, it should be included. Actually, it would also need to meet the requirements of WP:WEIGHT. Simply being covered by a reliable source is not sufficient grounds for inclusion anywhere on Wikipedia. –dlthewave ☎ 03:36, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
  • Nonsense. WEIGHT concerns itself with viewpoints on controversial topics (i.e., like whether climate change is happening or not, and how that should be presented in an article). It has nothing to do with whether a specific factoid like the Wehrmachtbericht should be included. The only place where WEIGHT has any relevance here is in discussing how the Wehrmachtbericht should be presented (i.e., as a press communique, a propaganda broadcast, etc.). Parsecboy (talk) 09:42, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. That adds too much weight to a mention in the Wehrmachtbericht as an award and may lead to repetetive prose (I am thinking, e.g., of Werner Moelders). And, yes, I do consider awards or, more precisely, the way awards are presented in military biographies to be controversial. If it was not controversial among Wikipedia editors, we would not have this discussion. WP:NOTEVERYTHING does not confine itself to controversial topics, however, neither does WP:DUE. Instead it is the prominence of the Wehrmachtbericht in published, reliable sources on the topic in question which counts as decisive.--Assayer (talk) 19:09, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Now I'm more confused. If an action out of which the actor received a medal or some kind of commendation is mentioned in the Wehrmachtbericht, can the WB be used (or not) in the discussion of/description of that action? auntieruth (talk) 19:41, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

#3 Non-inclusion

That mentions in the Wehrmachtbericht should not be included in relevant articles, as it is giving them undue weight given the Wehrmachtbericht was a propaganda broadcast.

Support (4)

1. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:29, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
2. --Assayer (talk) 12:55, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
3. --dlthewave (talk) 17:03, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
4. --Catrìona (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Discussion (4)

• Avoids POV issues, original research, and indiscriminate amount of information based on Wehrmacht's press releases and unreliable war-time propaganda. I have concerns about Option 2 since it opens the door to arguing about which sources are "reliable". The quality in military history market varies greatly, from books issued by university presses to popular history to hobbyist/militaria publications, all the way to apologist or extremist tracts, such as those issued by the likes of J.J. Fedorowicz Publishing or Nation Europa. Given the past attempts to reintroduce Wehrmachtberichte into Wikipedia, or objections to their removal (see Wehrmachtbericht: Recent developments on my user page), I would favour a "clean break". --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:29, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

It seems that the other proposals have not been thought out well (see my argument above) and will lead to further prolonged discussions, OR and POV issues. --Assayer (talk) 13:02, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

• Even if a few sources do describe a Wehrmachtberichte mention as an honor, this seems to be the WP:FRINGE view. WP:UNDUE requires that we cover viewpoints according to their overall prevalence among reliable sources and this viewpoint currently does not meet that bar. This is not a "ban"; it merely reflects the current body of scholarship, and we can certainly revisit the question if that changes. –dlthewave ☎ 17:19, 21 October 2018 (UTC)
• Reflects what is clearly the mainstream view in most high-quality sources, and sidesteps time-consuming discussion about exactly which sources are reliable, etc. Catrìona (talk) 22:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposed Indian military history task force

I would like to propose that Indian military history be 'graduated' from the Incubator and created as its own task force, a split from the South Asian military history task force. I suggest that the task force include pre-independence military history of India, such as ancient warfare in India and the British Indian Army, as well as the modern Indian Armed Forces. Kges1901 (talk) 19:08, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

These days, task forces are really just a way of us sorting articles rather than a way of focusing effort, so the question for me is whether the work involved in adding a task force (and the subsequent retagging of well over half of the 5,600 articles in the South-Asian task force) actually helps the project in any substantial way, or whether the effort on the modern Indian Armed Forces is better off as a special project. I'll just note that the 50+ membership of the incubator project are not all currently active, they seem highly focussed on the contemporary (post-independence) Indian Armed Forces only, and we haven't seen much throughput of articles through assessment other than KCV's work. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:57, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough point. Let us address Peacemaker67's point so that work on various aspects helps us create a better rationale. However, the reverse is also true, grouping South Asia doesn't motivate an editor from India to work on the superset. AshLin (talk) 07:46, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

@KCVelaga:, @Adamgerber80:, @MBlaze Lightning: and @Kautilya3: for input as they are members of the incubator group. I made this proposal because the incubator is supposed to be a temporary host and the group has been there for over two years. I do not see any issues with limiting the scope to the post-Independence military history of India, but even though TFs are primarily for categorization, I see utility in this as a more specific categorization than South Asia, which also includes Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka, etc. Kges1901 (talk) 17:11, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

I think most of the task-force has been focused on contemporary (post-independence) Indian Armed Forces only and for starters it might make to limit the scope to just post-Independence military history. I am going to ping other editors, @AshLin, Gazoth, DBigXray, Sarvatra, Aumnamahashiva, and SshibumXZ:, who edit in the general area but may or may not be in the task force, for their input as well. Adamgerber80 (talk) 18:03, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Adamgerber80, yep, whilst you are correct that I don't specifically edit Indian Armed Forces-related articles, I would be more than happy to join an Indian military-related task force, as a matter of fact, I was planing to create articles on two former Indian Army officers myself, including one on a deputy chief of the army. I also agree with Kges1901, in that, this task force would also serve itself in further categorising South Asia-related military history articles. Regards, SshibumXZ (talk · contribs). 18:51, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree with PM that 50+ membership is not a factor worth considering, many of them are inactive. But there are some who are not regular contributors to military history topics, but yes, they do at one time or the other, like Sshibum. Regarding the scope, I suggest not to limit to history or post-independence or modern armed forces, but anything that related to Indian military comes under the scope of this group. Removing the word "history" from the title will solve it. Also having a task-force will help to have more focused efforts on article assessments. KCVelaga (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

I concur with @KCVelaga:. Let it be the Indian Military Task Force. AshLin (talk) 07:46, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Also pinging @Strike Eagle and UY Scuti: KCVelaga (talk) 03:31, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

@WP:MILHIST coordinators: pinging the rest of the coord team for opinions about whether an Indian military history task force or a special project is the best way forward given the circumstances. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:33, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Just to clarify, for consistency with other task forces, it would be the Indian military history task force. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

That is the reason why I initially named it Indian military history. I don't any issues whatever the name is. KCVelaga (talk) 08:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Indian Military Task Force sounds good. While only a small percentage of the articles I edit or create deal with the Indian Armed Forces, would be delighted to join this task force.Aumnamahashiva (talk) 23:39, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

G'day TomStar81, this seems to have legs. With your recent experience with the new geographical TFs, would you be willing to help out with setting this up? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 03:24, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

@Kirill Lokshin: and @Peacemaker67: Since a week has passed I have set it up at Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Indian military history task force. The only thing left now is for my semi-protected edit request on the MILHIST template to be approved. Kges1901 (talk) 19:29, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry for the long reply, the last few days off I had double duty at my other job so I've not had much time to edit here, much less catch up with the goings on. I'm sorry I missed this, but I'm happy to see that its moved forward. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:15, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposed MILMOS addition re US ordinals

G'day all, the discussion at MOS petered out, and I don't think there was consensus to amend the higher-level MOS guidance on ordinals anyway. What I propose is that the following be inserted into WP:MILMOS#UNITNAME:

The use of the ordinals 2d and 3d instead of 2nd and 3rd are valid options for US units because they are used in standard US English, but their use is not mandated. The ordinal used in the title of any given article should be that which is most commonly used in reliable sources on the individual unit, and articles should be internally consistent in the use of ordinals.

Thoughts, tweaks etc? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:09, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Support – Seems like a fairly accurate summary of what people were saying in the discussion, although it won't make everyone happy. I'm not sure we need "because they are used in standard US English". Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:15, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Support - at least this is something in the MOS on this subject, thankyou Peacemaker67. Buckshot06 (talk) 12:34, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONALITY – If the normal ordinal syntax is acceptable and used by some reliable sources, we should use that format to ensure maximum comprehension. Universal styles are preferred to specialist styles if it can be demonstrated that reliable sources in the topic area use the universal style. The evaluation provided at MOS:NUM points in this direction, and so I must oppose this addition. RGloucester — ☎ 14:33, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Comment - I believe 2d/3d are sometimes proper names. On the other hand, has it been shown that 2d/3d are in common use? We (US English) have never seen them outside the military. Sammy D III (talk) 16:23, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Ordinals are a matter of style. Whether they are written as '2d' or '2nd', they are meant to be read the same way. For that reason, we have the ability to style them to fit our manual of style and indeed, the expectations of our generalist audience, rather than to the internal style of the American military. Of course, the military usage can be noted in the relevant articles. RGloucester — ☎ 16:31, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

The proper names really mess things up, otherwise 2nd/3nd would be assumed. In theory you could have the US 2d/3d meet the UK 2nd/3nd. How about article titles? Sammy D III (talk) 17:12, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Comment just to comment that the use of 2d for example really confuses Brits of a certain age who automatically read it as two pence and think it is probably a mistake, it would be better to use 2nd but we are probably a minority readers! MilborneOne (talk) 19:26, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

A reading of "tuppence" would require a Brit who could remember the old pre-decimal currency. So "Brits of a certain age" are people like Prince Philip. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:09, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Decimalisation was under 50 years ago; one could be rather younger than Prince Philip. Additionally vestiges of pre-decimal currency lingered on (eg one and two shilling coins remained in circulation as 5p and 10p coins) and you can be younger than '71 vintage (as I am) and yet read "2d" as "two old pence". Oppose - not just because of this, but it seems just needlessly obscure usage. Pinkbeast (talk) 02:55, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:COMMONALITY. Should be 2nd and 3rd for global lay audience. —Joeyconnick (talk) 21:25, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Oppose largely per comment by RGloucester. This is a matter of style in which it is appropriate for WP to determine the style used. If there is any lack of clarity globally a format should be deprecated in favour of that which is universally understood. I believe this applies with 2d. The extent that they are used/favoured in "standard" contemporary US English is not established. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 22:22, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support We can establish a local consensus for style matters related to MilHist. The proposed addition to our style guide does not change anything; it merely sums up the existing situation, and the consensus both here and at MOS:NUM. It was established that they are used in the US outside the military, but this does not concern us. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:09, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per RGloucestser. - wolf 03:08, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per RGloucester. If I've lived in the United States my entire life, am somewhat literate and didn't know this was an alternative, neither will the average American. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 14:32, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per RGloucestser. - mention it in the prose but titles should be consistent Lyndaship (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Comment

I can think of two editors well positioned to comment on whether this is contemporary standard US English - DickLyon and SMacCandlish. Because of the issue of canvassing I have not approached them. Peacemaker67, I suggest that they be invited to provide comment on this specific element of the proposition. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 22:49, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Can I encourage all those commenting here to have your say in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#MOS:ORDINAL? That is where we were trying to achieve a consensus for a change to the MOS to address this issue, and it would be preferable to make a change there than have a local consensus on MILMOS. Thanks, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:31, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry about the switching between here and MOS, just when I thought things had petered out over there, they've livened right up again. Just pinging those that have commented here or in the recently archived thread to engage with the current proposals over at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#MOS:ORDINAL so we get a solid consensus on the way to handle these things. Pinging @Buckshot06, Sammy D III, MilborneOne, Pinkbeast, and Thewolfchild:, @Compassionate727, Lyndaship, RGloucester, Madrenergic, and RobDuch: and @Lineagegeek, Kges1901, and Sturmvogel 66: Hopefully I've captured everyone who had expressed an interest in this. I'd encourage anyone else who has a view to chime in there as well. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:42, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

The discussion at the MOS seems to be going round and round about completely commonly understood things. My original intention was to create a local Milhist standard for U.S. units, which has been voted down; I don't think there's any particular need for anything more. Buckshot06 (talk) 06:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

It looks to me as if there will be a MOS change to deprecate 2d and 3d, so you might consider having your say if you favour retaining the option of 2d and 3d. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Assessment bot processed WP Military history 4 times

Greetings, For 21 October 2018 the WP 1.0 bot processed this WP four times. Details from the log are at Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Index#Why is bot "stuck" repeating WP Military history?. Wondering if there is anything in WP Military history that can be causing this? I understand this is a complex issue & hoping an expert is able to help. Regards, JoeHebda (talk) 19:39, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Kges1901 I wonder if the new Indian TF is causing this? Thoughts? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 23:51, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

The bot seems to be updating the total MILHIST count, specifically. Not sure that it is related to the Indian TF. Kges1901 (talk) 23:57, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi Kirill Lokshin any ideas? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 00:05, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Bot processing Oct. 22 to Oct. 23

Greetings (Kges1901—Peacemaker67—Kirill Lokshin) - Last night starting at 22:15 WP 1.0 bot processed WikiProject Military history a total of EIGHT times finally halting the bot at 04:14 on Oct. 23. JoeHebda (talk) 13:27, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Same errors - Bot processing Oct. 23 to Oct. 24

Greetings, Chances are there is nothing "wrong" with WP 1.0 bot. Since it is driven by Category tree and Wikiproject templates - Looking for an Expert to fix. How to find errors? Also, is it only certain articles that are tagged incorrectly?

Many Wikiprojects are missing Assessment logs since October 8, 2018. JoeHebda (talk) 13:46, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

Changes to setting up the Indian TF are certainly coincidental with the error? I might suggest backtracking (one at a time) those changes that specifically relate to assessments to see if these (and which one) is responsible (if at all). Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 23:48, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

It's entirely unrelated, as JoeHebda reported seeing this behavior at least as early as October 15, well before anything was done for the new task force. Prior to that, the MILHIST assessment template hadn't been edited since February, and the MILHIST assessment category hadn't been edited since last June.

Given that this behavior seems to affect the larger projects, I wonder if there isn't some performance wall we're hitting here. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 01:12, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

WP Biography first

From "way back when" I seem to remember a discussion about placing WikiProject Biography first in the talkpage list of WPs. To correct some kind of flagging issue. So when I'm doing assessments I like to move WP Bio to top of list. Doubt this will solve bot repeating WP Biography (military) & WP Military history on the "WP 1.0 bot" daily processing. JoeHebda (talk) 12:18, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Eyes on some doubtful editing on the end of WWII.

• Kuru666 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Could someone with some decent sources and knowledge have a look at the editing and page creations by User:Kuru666. They seem to have a very liberal idea about what is fantasy and fact. They have created 3 articles about the conflict between France and Italy at the end of the war. They are inserting information that is not included in the sources such as casualty figures and dates and heroic last stands by the Italian fascist army. They have also been going through older French/Italian conflicts with a decidedly anti French brush. I do not have easy access to reliable sources to be able to challenge some of their editing hence my message here. Cheers. Dom from Paris (talk) 18:45, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

 Working. This is an obvious case of tendentious editing. Without any knowledge of how these things are normally handled, my inclination is to spot-check a few of his edits, rollback all of them if they're mostly or entirely bad, and give him a firm warning about our verifiability and neutrality policies. If he made any good edits during that time, he can do the hard work of re-adding them himself, and if he goes back to disruption, we can say we tried and take him to a noticeboard.

I'm not sure you really need sourcing help, since Google has the text of nearly every book ever published, and allows us to search for text, enabling citation checks. But I'm willing to put in the necessary legwork for those checks, even though real life says I don't have the time. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 23:04, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

@Domdeparis: I have examined all of the user's edits and reverted the ones I didn't think were appropriate (which were most of them). His creations still need to be handled, as I mostly left them alone due to not being able to simply revert them, but the really tedious stuff is all taken care of. (And all of his creations are inappropriate, I just haven't done anything about it yet.) You mentioned checking sources, which I did not find to be necessary. If you do want my help doing that, just let me know what I should look at. On the other hand, if you want to rewrite those articles and need new content, I'm not the ideal person. Please do let me know if there's anything else I can help with. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 01:52, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your help. What I would also really be interested in is someone who has access to some reliable sources that cover this period and let me know if the creations cover notable events. Cheers Dom from Paris (talk) 06:11, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

That's a more complicated question. Crude results are looking like:

• Second Battle of the Alps: When I searched "battle of alps 1945" on Google, I had a number of reliable-looking hits in the general web search. Searching individual battles returned books and journal articles covering this topic. I initially accused the user of fabricating the current title, but I did find one French-language source that uses that name. At a glance, this suggests that Operation Encore might also be a suitable title. I haven't found a single name used more than once to describe this campaign/offensive, though, so while an article is certainly doable, giving it a home will be interesting.
• Battle of Porta Littoria: I had no hits searching "Porta Littoria" in either Google's main or scholarly engines. Books returned one that might contain a reference. I'll get back to you about my college library when I've verified with a librarian that I've searched correctly. The article's first reference appears to be fabricated (the source contains no apparent mention of the said howitzers). Can't preview the second. My guess is that both citations are forged and the whole article's a hoax. On the bright side, I found this interesting thing.
• Defense of the Redoute Ruinée (1945): Google general web search of "redoute ruinée 1945" returned only this this thing of perhaps questionable reliability and definite trivial nature. Google Scholar gave me this and this. Both are scholarly journals, both discuss the battle. I'm not sure whether the coverage is substantial. Google Books is giving me a number of hits. Conclusion is that it definitely happened, and it was important enough to be covered by a few (admittedly almost entirely Italian) scholarly sources. Whether anything currently in the article is true is another question, but we can probably make something usable out of it, if we want to.

Hope that helps. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 06:51, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

Two of these articles have been nominated for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Porta Littoria and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Defense of the Redoute Ruinée. Nick-D (talk) 22:57, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Regarding the Second Battle of the Alps, the Lyon military history museum's website's account of the campaign [4] states that it was actually a French victory, with small forces making some useful gains before the Axis forces collapsed. The US Army's United States Army in World War 2, Special Studies, Chronology, 1941-1945 summarises what look to be mixed results, but overall progress, for a limited French offensive into the Alps in 1945. I consulted the British official history Allied military administration of Italy, 1943-1945 yesterday, and while it's almost entirely silent on the fighting, it states that French forces advanced deep into northern Italy (almost reaching Turin) in May 1945. None of these sources supports the account of successive French defeats made in the Second Battle of the Alps article. As there's surprisingly little on the French Army of 1944-45 (especially 1945) in English, this area is very vulnerable to hoaxing, and I think that the Second Battle of the Alps article is entirely unreliable. Nick-D (talk) 22:43, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Nick, the book I recommend is The Riviera at War: World War II on the Côte d'Azur]. The successive French setbacks is described in English therein. We have two articles on the campaign: Second Battle of the Alps and Battle of Authion. They should be merged. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:59, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Battle of Authion appears to be about a single battle during this offensive: "A critical choke point was the 2,080 metre (6,820 feet) high Authion massif, held by determined but weakened German and Italian forces. Field Marshal Harold Alexander authorised the assault on Authion on 10 April 1945." Nevertheless, I assure you that there is currently nothing of any use whatsoever in the article Second Battle of the Alps. The overwhelming majority of the article is outright forged, and the things that are reliably sourced are of negligible importance. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:04, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, Kuru666 has reverted my reverts. They're communicating in edit summaries instead of talk pages. I'm drowning in homework, would someone spot-check them for accuracy? If he's still making unsourced changes, please make a complaint at an appropriate noticeboard. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 19:12, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

RFC: What details should be included in Vietnam War infobox casualties section?

What details should be included in Vietnam War infobox casualties section? There are several edits I noticed which has deleted info on wounded or equipment losses within the infobox. There is also a secondary question on disclaiming which sources give which figures. There are a series of edits altering "US Bodycount Claims" or "US Sources" to "US Bodycount" that links to another page explaining issues around the figure. E.g. on this article here Battle of Minh Thanh Road. My assumption was indicating which countries give which sources and where the source as derived from as the standard, e.g. as outlined in the infobox here Operation Barbarossa.Piccadillysquare (talk) 04:26, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

I would be very much opposed to including equipment losses under "casualties". As for the sourcing (US body count vs North Vietnamese sources), I could swear we just discussed this recently but can't find it now. Kendall-K1 (talk) 04:40, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

This all ties back into a certain POV. If the US body count was high, but weapons captured were low this was meant to imply that the US forces had killed civilians. The wikilink to Vietnam War body count controversy makes it clear that this is the US claim with all the issues that implies and which are discussed in detail on that page. I'm happy for Users to add the numbers from North Vietnamese WP:RS where those are available. I oppose inclusion of wounded on one side when comparable figures are not available for the other side as this gives a completely misleading view of the results of any given engagement. Mztourist (talk) 05:03, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

I am currently working on a review of the MilHist Acadamy module, "Using statistics". It touches on such matters. In short:

1. Captured weapons are not casualties and should not be reported as such in the infobox.
2. The POV identified by Mztourist is nuance. An infobox is not a place for such nuance, in that, understanding the significance requires explanation in some detail.
3. The POV may have some validity but the counterpoint is that, in an asymmetric war, the resource poor belligerent is very likely to collect weapons from the wounded as it withdraws. It then comes down to the reliability of sources and dealing with potential bias through appropriate weight. This is a matter for the body of the text.
4. Sources aligned with the belligerents are likely to be biased and the more contemporaneous, the greater the potential for bias.
5. All reasonable sources (even if biased) should be reported and attributed in the article. This will lead to a range of both US and NVA casualties. Analysis by sources used in the article is for the main text. In the infobox, it is probably best to report ranges from the available sources rather than a specific figure.
6. The lead and infobox donot usually require references with the rider that statements made therein are supported by references in the main text. However, there are cases where the nature of the material might require a reference (per guidelines). Where the range is particularly broad, it would be appropriate to reference the upper and lower limits given in the infobox.
7. The hover feature makes footnotes very accessible. I think that readers expect certain fields in an infobox (such as casualties) are filled. Sometimes, for reasons of accuracy or NPOV, it might be necessary to qualify the figures given in an infobox. A footnote may be appropriate. See Battle of Buna–Gona for how I have dealt with a problematic case.

I hope this is of assistance. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 11:05, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

I would agree, casualties should be human, not material.Slatersteven (talk) 11:07, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

On the contrary, often the material losses are what matter most - the Battle of Midway is a clear example of this. Individual weapons that were captured is a bit excessive, but vehicles should generally be included (though we don't need a breakdown of specific helicopter types as was the case in the Minh Thanh Road article linked above - just say "X helicopters destroyed" or whatever).

As for recent discussions on this topic, see here and here. Parsecboy (talk) 12:03, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Ship losses in a sea battle should obviously be included. The US losing a few helicopters or tanks in an engagement in Vietnam is immaterial and not worthy of inclusion in the infobox. Mztourist (talk) 16:40, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Such losses are routinely included in infoboxes - see for example Battle of Prokhorovka, Battle of Villers-Bocage, Battle of Leipzig, etc. Parsecboy (talk) 16:52, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Its a matter of context, Prokhorovka and Villers-Bocage were both tank battles, so tank losses on each side are relevant. In relation to Leipzig, losing 325 guns would have been a material loss that would have been difficult for the French to replace and so material to the entire French military. For the US to lose a few easily replaceable tanks or helicopters as at Minh Thanh Rd was immaterial both to the battle and the war. Mztourist (talk) 17:08, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Then why are we including casualties at all in small actions like this? The 25 men killed on the US side were even more easily replaced and their loss had no effect on the war either. It seems you're moving the goalposts. Parsecboy (talk) 17:11, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

because manpower losses in any engagement are material. No goalposts being moved here.Mztourist (talk) 03:09, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Slight revision of my comment above: The field in the infobox is "casualties" but is displayed as "Casualties and losses". As such, it is appropriate and common to report losses of significant material in this field. I might have looked more closely at this.

I suggest that the infobox doc should be amended to reflect this. Comments please.

Significant material would include: ships, aircraft, artillery, tanks and other AFVs. In WW1 articles, it might be appropriate to include Mdm MGs, because of the nature of the conflict. I donot believe it appropriate to report down to other small arms. There is a field report (I forget the name) consistent with this. The losses should be grouped broadly by type and avoid excessive intricate detail. The examples above are consistent with this. I would agree with Parsecboy - just say "X helicopters destroyed" or whatever. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 01:28, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

In the Vietnam War the US losing a few tanks, APCs or helicopters was immaterial to them, for the VC, as you note above, "the resource poor belligerent" losing small arms was material. Mztourist (talk) 03:09, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

We should either fix all those articles that currently list equipment under "casualties" or change the template documentation to allow this practice. I find it very surprising that we list equipment under "casualties", as this does not match the common meaning of this term. Do we need an rfc for this? Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:42, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

The actual heading for the casualties parameter is "casualties and losses". The heading supports the inclusion of material. It is a case of tidying up the doc's guidance. I don't think that we need an RfC if the results of this discussion are clear:

1. That the parameter includes material losses per the heading used.
2. The appropriate way to describe and categorise material lost.

Once we have a mandate to act, we might move the discussion to the doc TP to nut out the actual wording (with notification here that this is going on). Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 22:26, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Just a brief question on dits removing wounded in the casualties section and phrasing the source indicator. Some edits keep removing information on casualties, particularly the number of wounded and keeps rephrasing the source description "US Body Count Claim" and "US Sources" to "US Body Count". E.g. these edits are examples [5], [6], [7]. Ideally what information should be included? I don't find these edits particularly helpful in pointing the facts clearly.

Request for closure

A request for closure has been made at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure#Talk:Natalya Meklin#Awards for a discussion at Talk:Natalya Meklin#Awards. A disagreement between two protagonists (not me) has led to the article being protected. I believe that there has been sufficient discussion involving other parties to identify a consensus which would be respected by the protagonists and result in a return to normal editing. Alternatively, a close might indicate further action to resolve the matter if a consensus is not clear. Would an uninvolved Admin consider closing this discussion. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, there is a request for closure by an Admin or experienced editor at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure#Module talk:Infobox military conflict#Request for comment for the RfC at Module talk:Infobox military conflict#Request for comment. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

A question about dates

Second Phase Offensive (Korean War) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article is really quite a Jekyll-Hyde - the infobox mostly has DD-MM, while large parts of the prose seem to go by MM-DD. (I initially thought that only the first paragraph had that problem.) Is it fine if I just change everything to DD-MM? WP:MILDATE would seem to back the DD-MM approach, but I didn't want to ruffle too many feathers. hbdragon88 (talk) 04:52, 31 October 2018 (UTC)