Talk:Barack Obama
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Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
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Immigration Policy
Hi all. I added this to the page under the above heading which has now been removed under dubious pretences:
Obama's immigration policy has been criticised as 'the harshest and largest immigration enforcement regime in American history.'[1] Under the Obama administration, it is reported that between 2009 and 2015, a total of 2.5 million people were deported,[2] at a rate above 385,000 between 2009 - 2011 with the highest level of deportations reaching 409,849 in 2012.[3] There was also controversy over the usage of 'Cages That House Immigrant Children at U.S.-Mexico Border' which were first built and used under his term in office.[4]
According to @Snooganssnoogans: it 'pushes a false narrative about Obama implementing the family separation policy.' - Although I'm not sure how, as it is a fact that his administration created the cages and no where in the section did I state that Obama was linked directly to the term 'family separation policy' - the source addresses this and one part states: 'Thomas Homan (who was director of removal operations at ICE under President Obama). Homan had said during a June 21, 2019, panel discussion hosted by the anti-immigration advocacy group Center for Immigration Studies that “‘The kids are being [housed] in the same facility built under the Obama administration. If you want to call them cages, call them cages. But if the left wants to call them cages and the Democrats want to call them cages, then they have to accept the fact that they were built and funded in FY 2015.”
From how I understand it, the cages were built within facilities, with the adults being close to them and reunited quickly after checks. It's not a pretty part of human history, but I wonder if this is a politically motivated removal of facts that even for me were quite the revelation at first to think Obama would do such a thing. Anyway, 'feelings' aside, I wonder if there is consensus as to how my original text could be improved please. For the record, I am not American and don't prefer any US president over any other...well I always had a soft spot for Kennedy. Anyway, Thanks in advance. Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 13:31, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
- A comprehensive and NPOV summary of the Obama administration's policy on immigration is not "CATO called it the harshest immigration policy, and the Obama administration built cages." A comprehensive concise NPOV summary of the Obama adm's immigration policy can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Barack_Obama#Immigration Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:53, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hi Snooganssnoogans, How is that comprehensive if it doesn't include constructive criticisms and leaves out the controversy? And why can't there be another 'immigration policy' on his page too, like there are duplicated topics on both? I don't see any debunking of Obama here. Why can the fact that 'Statistically, more people were deported from the U.S. during the administration of President Barack Obama than during that of any other president.'[5] not be included as a pretty important stat? Thanks for the reply.Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 14:01, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Sources
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Hi again, It's been over a week and you cannot justify your revert and your own talk page is marred with similar accusations and is disturbingly riddled with the similar pattern of reverting facts that you can not allow due to disagreeing with it. I have re-written the part since your revert was clearly politically motivated and I have also asked two other wiki editor who seem more objective to weigh in on this matter as, I am sorry but I do not trust your reasons for reverting due to your talk page. Thanks.Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 12:41, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
- SnooganssnoogansSo again you revert due to 'this is not a neutral concise summary of the Obama adm's immigration policy. a concise neutral summary can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidency_of_Barack_Obama#Immigration . you have to seek consensus for this version' - however you still haven't replied to my last comment - but are very quick to appear when a revert needs doing lol. How convenient. Also, not sure you have much legitimacy to talk about being 'neutral' - the link you supplied highlights none of the more controversial aspects of Obama's immigration policy. Hardly 'neutral'. I also see you have no issue with other presidents having their immigration policies controversy pointed out...like Donald Trump...Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 13:11, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
- I have already explained why this is not a neutral concise summary of the Obama adm's immigration policy and gone so far as to show you what a neutral concise summary might look like. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 13:14, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but respectfully I disagree. The summary link you provided isn't neutral and you addressed none of my counter points and I worry about your biases - which otherwise would be none of my business, but I find your talk page record quite alarming, nothing personal against you - but it isn't very welcoming, but nor are the rude remarks made against you. In short - It cannot be neutral if it doesn't convey the constructive criticism and facts that he deported more people than any other president. Note Trumps page IS more neutral because it does convey his controversy. Why can't Obama's do the same? You say I need to seek consensus, but why bother if wiki is more about politically motivated reverts than representing history - both the good and bad bits? I'll wait for others to weigh in - if they agree with you then fair enough I will leave it. Thanks.Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 14:58, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
- I would also oppose this, as it would appear that you are cherry-picking quotes and sources to contract a narrative that you desire to see, rather than one that reflects what most mainstream sources say about the President and immigration. ValarianB (talk) 02:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- What and the current text used isn't cherry picking all the non-controversial aspects then? Did you read any of my points refuting this idea? Do you think that wiki articles should only be defined by 'mainstream' sources? What constitutes a 'mainstream' source by the way? And how is it that the Trump article is allowed (as it should) to mention controversy? Are you not the one cherry picking by stating that only mainstream sources and non-controversial information be applied to wiki articles? I really look forward to your reply lol...Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 15:34, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Do you think that wiki articles should only be defined by 'mainstream' sources?
, the answer to which is unquestionably "yes". If you are unable to identify reliable sources on your own, you may wish to check Wikipedia:Reliable sources. ValarianB (talk) 17:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- That's a shame, very selective answers there, very weak reply - only answer the questions that won't put you off kilter and undermine your argument.'If you are unable to identify reliable sources on your own, you may wish to check' - now you resort to condescension. So non of these sources are reliable or mainstream enough for you?
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/obamas-mixed-legacy-immigration
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661 https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/enforcement-actions https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-deported-more-people/
- I think what you mean is - 'none of those sources fit my own political group think narrative'. No offense Valerian, but if you are unable to identify 'reliable' sources on your own (like those above), you may wish to check Wikipedia:Reliable sources to give you a hand - there is a difference between 'mainstream' sources and 'reliable 'sources' that don't have to be mainstream to be reliable. Glaaaastonbury88 (talk) 07:08, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- If you re-read your citations, you would see that the number of deportations is greater largely due to a redefinition of what it meant to be deported. You are cherry-picking raw numbers and using them to support your own conclusions. That's not going to be allowed. Where we're at here is simple; add this material again, without consensus, and it will likely be reverted. ValarianB (talk) 13:28, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- It seems unusual that the cages, built under Obama, are highlighteed on Trump's wikipedia page as an outcome of one of his policies. But there's no mention here. 124.157.73.108 (talk) 21:35, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2020
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Obama has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers. (This is almost identical to a statement on Donald Trump's Wikipedia page.) Fact-checker source is https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=barack-obama
I believe this should be added to Obama's page to even out the egregious and obvious bias of Wikipedia contributors/editors. Alexanderth3hgr8 (talk) 02:54, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note the frequency of Obama's fact-check fails in the link you provided: Four in 2014, one in 2013, a dozen or so in 2012. Compare that with Trump, who fails scores of fact checks in every speech. That's why we say that Trump (but not Obama, or pretty much any other president) "has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency". All politicians make some "false or misleading statements", but we only point it out for Trump - because he is off the charts. And before you say "bias!", note that we don't say it about any other Republican politician either. Trump's mendacity is unique. -- MelanieN (talk) 03:09, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
Citizenship section for template
in special:diff/982279214 it was requested by user:cullen328 I pursue consensus before restoring the section.
template:infobox officeholder does not include an explanation of all it's sections (including this one) so template:infobox person can be useful there. It explains:
- Should only be used if citizenship differs from the value in |nationality= and cannot be inferred from the birthplace.
This much is true since only Obama's American citizenship can be inferred by his birthplace. He has has in the past had bloodline nationality (if not necessarily citizenship.. blurred lines) citizenship in Britain/Kenya/Commonwealth during his youth which all expired due to him not renouncing American citizenship (Kenyan citizenship automatically lost if you don't renounce, don't allow dual citizenship).
I'm thinking cullen328 could be objecting because I might have misclassified BPP as citizenship when it might've been more appropriate as 'nationality' since BPP were subject to British jurisdiction and protection but did not have voting rights AFAIK. Same might be true of Commonwealth Citizenship since CW members don't vote in leaders of commonwealth but enjoy protections. I don't know where it would fall in Kenyan terms. If it's about voting rights then arguably children don't become citizens until voting age, until then they would effectively nationals. WakandaQT (talk) 05:55, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
- The bottom line is that this obscure information about possible UK/Kenyan citizenship during his childhood does not belong in the infobox, which should not be packed with trivia. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:18, 7 October 2020 (UTC)
War crimes and murder of civilians (state terrorism) omission
How is it that this article does not even mention the war crimes committed by Obama in Afghanistan and the criticism of the internationally illegal drone strike program that bombed and murderered a tremendous amount of civilians? This is quite an incredible amount of whitewashing.PailSimon (talk) 11:09, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Per guidance like WP:LENGTH we don't put everything about a big topic in the same article, that would be a bad idea (see Category:Barack Obama). You can find a sentence or two about it at Drone strikes in Pakistan, which is connected to articles like Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, War in Afghanistan (2001–present) and War on terror.
- But you are welcome to make a suggestion like "I propose that we add this text in this section cited to these WP:RS." Consider WP:PROPORTION, others might. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- You would think that a president committing crimes that had they been committed by others would land them in the Hague is worth mentioning. PailSimon (talk) 13:03, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed I would, PailSimon. So why don't you take up Gråbergs Gråa Sång's invitation? (You'll have to cite good sources, of course.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:06, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- There are plenty of excellent sources available at Kunduz hospital airstrike for example.PailSimon (talk) 13:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Then you are free to use them, PailSimon. -- Hoary (talk) 13:17, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- There are plenty of excellent sources available at Kunduz hospital airstrike for example.PailSimon (talk) 13:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed I would, PailSimon. So why don't you take up Gråbergs Gråa Sång's invitation? (You'll have to cite good sources, of course.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:06, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 13 October 2020
It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Barack Obama. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |
Someone vandalized Obama’s middle name again. 2601:643:380:5040:28FC:239E:51A2:87EC (talk) 00:00, 14 October 2020 (UTC)
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