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Concern regarding place/time incoherence of references

The first sentence of the second paragraph of the lead section:

In June 1971, Rawat left India to speak in London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles, where he was the subject of substantial media attention and criticized for what was considered a lack of intellectual content in his teachings[4][5] and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle.[6][7][8]

My concern:

ref 4 is a 1982 Dutch book: not clear whether it links in time or in place to any of the four places mentioned as being visited when in June 1971 Rawat left India?
(ref 5 is a 2001 book, as its title refers to the "late Vietnam war era" this might link to the media attention when visiting Los Angeles after leaving India in June 1971.)
ref 6 is from 1975. Although published in the USA (The Ruston Daily Leader) the criticism originated in fact in India, from Rawat's mother. The sentence where this reference is added jostles with that: "Rawat left India", visited four places far from India "where he was [...] criticised [...]" - and then follows a criticism originating in India... no, not OK, bad style. (bolding was added)
ref 7 is from 2003, and is apparently not written from a seventies perspective (e.g. "Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers." - bolding added)
(ref 8 is from 1997. As it is from a dictionary, and no text is quoted directly, place/time might be in order here)

Far from wanting that ref 4, 6 and 7 be removed I just want to point out that it is a non-encyclopedia-worthy type of embellishment to make it seem (in the intro of the article) as if the criticism only extends to his speaking tour to London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles after leaving India in June 1971 (mentioned in the second paragraph of the intro), and, also suggested, no later then when he turned 16 in 1973 (3rd paragraph of the Intro). --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, Francis. The criticism is mostly from the 70's and early 80's. That paragraph can be easily fixed, I guess. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know, the version I defend didn't have that flaw. So I conclude you agree I revert to that version. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean of the lead? Can you place a diff here? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your last edit to the article is the diff that removed it. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:49, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My last edit was restoring the compromise version by David D.. You can add this to an appropriate place of the lead, if that will help: Rawat attracted controversy for what has been considered a lack of intellectual content in his teachings,^[1]^[2] and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle.^[3]^[4] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:54, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done, but note that ref codes without content can only be used if a ref with a same name and with content is on the page, see Wikipedia:Footnotes. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:26, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I checked all the refs are correct as these are used already elsewhere. See the ref section, which has no errors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:40, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I checked them: the last two didn't work: other references with the same name and no content depended on them to have content. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK. I will wikignome these and add provide the refs here so that these can be added. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here: ^[3]^[4] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I *had* already filled them with content on the Prem Rawat article (the content that was there in the sentence I had to remove in order not to double content in the lead). I'm not the one leaving behind me semi-disabled references. --Francis Schonken (talk) 00:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to *ref 7 - "Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers." - bolding added) - this quote comes from a chapter titled "Divine Light Mission" [[1]] so it is pre 1983. So 4 out of 5 references are pre 1983 (Goring being unknown). Making it's placement the "His teachings became more universal, and less Indian, and in the early 1980s" sentence inappropriate. Since we are already talking about the media attention, it is, for the sake of logic and readability appropriate to place it there.Momento (talk) 08:08, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, you're back to place/time incoherencies with your reverts:

In June 1971, Rawat left India to speak in London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles, where he was the subject of substantial media attention and criticized by some for what was considered a lack of intellectual content in his teachings[4][5] and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle.[6][7][8] Tens of thousands were immediately attracted to his message, largely from the hippie culture. Rawat made his home in the U.S. and began touring and teaching world wide.[9][10] When he turned 16, Rawat became an emancipated minor and was able to take a more active role in guiding the movement. (bolding added)

Rawat turned 16 in 1973. The sentence before that, so before turning 16, "Rawat made his home in the U.S. and began touring [...]". Before making his home in the U.S. and the ensuing touring, "Tens of thousands were immediately attracted to his message". Before that (still according to the timeline now proposed in the intro of the article) he visited four cities outside India, "where he was criticised [...]". So, the text of the intro still implies that criticism is something happening between June 1971 and Rawat's birthday in 1973, and happend in four cities (none of them in India, nor in the Netherlands - which is also incoherent with the references).

As I said, "non-encyclopedia-worthy type of embellishment" - the criticism extended at least (!) from the mid seventies to the mid eighties, and originated in places not limited to "London, Paris, Heidelberg and Los Angeles" — that's what you have references for here, not for the 1971-1973 period nor for the criticism exclusively originating in the four mentioned cities. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pretty much all the "substantial media attention" Rawat attracted when he arrived in the west was criticism. The media made fun of him for giving stupid examples, being fat and liking Baskin & Robbins ice cream. The criticism of the "lack of intellectual content in his teachings and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle" began the day he was picked up at London airport in a flower decked Rolls Royce in June 1971. That's why the lede should structured the way I proposed.Momento (talk) 11:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Pretty much all the "substantial media attention" Rawat attracted when he arrived in the west was criticism."^{[citation needed]}

"The media made fun of him for giving stupid examples, being fat and liking Baskin & Robbins ice cream."^{[citation needed]}

"The criticism of the "lack of intellectual content in his teachings and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle" began the day he was picked up at London airport in a flower decked Rolls Royce in June 1971."^{[citation needed]}

Even if all that is true, the criticism didn't stop there, did it? The references used in the article try to give a wider scope (both in time and in place), than just some superficialities when he first arrived in the west. So, it's still incorrect to use more profound references for what in the body of the lead text refers to a relatively short period of superficial criticism. --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which criticism is superficial? The "lack of intellectual content in his teachings" or "leading a sumptuous lifestyle".Momento (talk) 13:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"being fat and liking Baskin & Robbins ice cream"^{[citation needed]}; "he was picked up at London airport in a flower decked Rolls Royce in June 1971"^{[citation needed]} --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Lede

The quotes that back the sentence regarding "lack of intellectual content" and "materialistic lifestyle" all come from the 70s. Putting it after events that happened in 2001 make it look like Rawat has been criticized for the last 40 years when this criticism was limited to the 70s. It is important that lede accurately reflects the content of the article, unfortunately some editors have chosen to create a separate section called "Criticism" against Wiki guidelines. When this article is cleaned up, those criticisms and the sources will appear in the "Leaving India" and "Coming of Age" sections where they belong. I have rejigged the lede for greater accuracy and NPOV.Momento (talk) 20:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, no, you're repeating arguments that have been debunked above. And again, don't start a new talk page section about something that's discussed elsewhere, and even was an agreement (#Thousands of edits lost: "Thus, [the lead section] should include the main points of the criticism.", last sentence, nobody found anything unreasonable about that; and then a few sections lower, #Concern regarding place/time incoherence of references which debunked the argument entirely, nobody objecting) --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could the sentence be moved to after Rawat became an emancipated minor and was able to take a more active role in guiding the movement. as a suitable compromise? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I put it there for some time, until someone else moved it again to the last sentence of the section. So I propose to keep it there (last sentence of the lead, separate paragraph) until a new consensus where to put it (if any) emerges here on talk. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it about time that editors here start looking for some common ground and developing consensus by finding a compromise that all can live with, instead of reverting each other endlessly. I would hope that both Francis and Momento would agree with me on this. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or is it time to request a full protection? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence that starts In June 1971, Rawat left India could benefit by saying that he was 13 years old at the time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't debunked any arguments Francis, you've just agreed with your own. If the sentence is moved from the chronologically correct 70s section of the lede, it should have "in the 70s". Suit yourself.Momento (talk) 20:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I intend to change Rawat has been criticized for lack of intellectual content in his teachings and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle (lede) into: "Rawat has been criticized for his teachings and for his lifestyle", and leave the details to chapter "Reception". It makes the lede a better summary, and prevents derogatory allusions from appearing twice, resulting in unproportional weight. Opinions?--Rainer P. (talk) 10:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bad idea, e.g. changes focus from the teachings regarded as being too lightweight to them being erroneous (or whatnot); similar for lifestyle, unless you assume we want to add language regarding behaviour other than it being sumptuous (there is such other criticism; but thus far Wikipedians chose not to include it). And of course a Lead section contains content covered elsewhere in the article (only birth date & place, and alternative names are things that can be in a lead without being repeated in the rest of the article: the lead section is a summary). --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:27, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see. His Lifestyle being „sumptuous“ seems in fact to cover the main body of criticism regarding lifestyle. But a “lack of intellectual content” is in my perception not the main theme of general or academic appraisal of his teachings, rather it is a marginal – and certainly derogatory, to put it mildly – point of view. There used to be much more clamour about alleged claims of divinity, or being a heretic, or the techniques being detrimental or ineffective, or demanding personal devotion, or unsolved matters concerning succession and what not. I mean, lack of intellectual content is not typical for criticism of the teachings, so it should not be solely explicitely mentioned in the summary, when there was really a great variety of criticism with a quite different balance point. That’s why I still suggest the more general “…criticized for his teachings”, perhaps we could add: “…in various ways”, or, to be more specific, as it is said in “Reception”: “…emphasizing the supremacy of subjective experience over intellect” (sounds less POV. A little OR to share with you: I do admit I feel slightly offended by the “lack of intellectuality”, it makes students look like idiots). What do you think?--Rainer P. (talk) 08:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you shouldn't have reverted without consensus. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Didn't mean to either. I put the change to discussion above, and nobody objecting or contributing for a week felt like consensus alright to me.--Rainer P. (talk) 19:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There was no consensus.

Further, Schnabel is a viable source, shouldn't have been removed from the lead section. That your appreciation is "derogatory" is of no consequence: it is a reliable source. Further, “…in various ways” is weaseliness, not appropriate for the cited sources. Also, currently in the reception section there are more references about the intellectual content (I counted 6), than about the sumptuous lifestyle. The other criticism is still struggeling to get proper mention in the article, so referring to it in the lead section pre-emptively is not what lead sections exist for. If it is properly elaborated in the article, than we can see what we do with it in the lead. Currently, the main criticisms in the article are sumptuous lifestyle and lack of intellectual content. Both have appropriate references. These two should be mentioned in the lead, without weaseliness and with proper references. Your edit was a step backwards for the quality of the article. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resuming

The criticism sentence of the intro currently reads

Rawat was criticized in the 1970s for lack of intellectual content in his teachings,[12][13] and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle.[14][15]

I bolded the part I object to, while it is not covered by the sources:

ref [12] is a 1982 book, it nowhere limits the criticism to the 1970s.
ref [13] is a 2003 book, I've not seen anyone who could explain how it is derived from this book this criticism is limited to the 1970s
ref [15] is also a 2003 book, as far as I can tell deriving from it that the criticism was limited to the 1970s is an interpretation, somewhat OR-ish.

So I propose to remove the qualifier "in the 1970s" from that sentence, it is nowhere needed, while these criticisms were (as is also apparent from other sources) not something that stopped after the 70s. --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:23, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is more wrong with the sentence.

ref [12] Schabel writes - "Maharaj Ji's charismatic leadership is very effective, even if comparatively shallow." is hardly a "criticism".
ref [13] Barret's comment that "The Divine Light movement used to be criticized for the devotion given to Maharaji, who was thought to live a life of luxury on the donations of his followers". Clearly date it to 70s possibly early 80s and contain "weasel words".
ref [15] Hunt's comment " Over time,' critics have focused on' what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers. However, deliberately keeping a low profile has meant that the movement has generally managed to escape the gaze of publicity that surrounds other NRMs."

Barret's and Hunt's comments contain enough "Weasel words" to be dismissed outright. Please read [[2]] . Schnabel's "criticism" hardly merits a place in the article let alone the lede.

I can see the whole sentence being removed.Momento (talk) 21:16, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You were adamant the article was conforming to NPOV, with the sentence (and its references) included in the lead section the way it is [3], so I'm rejecting your argumentation above as "too weasely". --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mishler quote (doesn't really belong to the talk page section on the criticism phrase in the lead of the article)

This may be slightly off-topic, but I can't find any mention of Robert Mishler in this or any of the related articles. He is a former president of the DLM and made critical comments about the subject. Is there a reason he's not mentioned? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it was deleted because Momento found mentioning Mishler's criticism unencyclopedic. I disagreed among others because Mishler's criticism was mentioned in Melton's encyclopedia' of cults. Andries (talk) 18:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I mention him because I was just reading an L.A. Times article from 1979 that quotes him extensively. The Times is a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:34, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This Mishler?

Some of the criticism leveled at Prem Rawat derives from Bob Mishler, a former president of DLM, and Robert Hand after they parted ways with Prem Rawat in the 1970s.^[5] According to Melton in a 1986 article, Mishler's complaints — that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaji's personal use — found little support and did not affect the progress of the Mission.^[6]

Can this go in the article? Does it need tweaking? If suitable for the article: where to put it? --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

done. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Added subsection title (talk page organisation) --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Balyogeshwar

... was the name of Rawat when he was a child. See Balyogeshwar. I do not think that it is notable enough to be mentioned in the lead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a redirect to the page. Again, Wikipedia is not a puzzle where average readers have to connect dots via information that is available elsewhere, or even worse by digging into diffs at Wikipedia (how to find diffs is not prerequired knowledge for being a reader of a Wikipedia article). --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:39, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We had a long section on the names and meanings of them (in the "Childhood" section), but it was agreed that it was not necessary.

In these early days, Rawat was known both as Sant Ji^[7] and as Balyogeshwar.^[8]

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compare [4] – Sant Ji is currently not a redirect, but the "Sant" tradition is still explained in the article, so no problem there.

Sant Ji (section break)

As I mentioned above Sant Ji was a redlink, that is: was: I just started it as a disambig page. For as far I can tell "Sant" is not a part of the name properly speaking (as The Honourable would not be part of someone's name, properly speaking - only very few people were successful in making a given epithet/honorific become their actual name, compare Augustus/Augustus (honorific)); "Ji" on the other hand is a name shared by many (among which Prem Rawat), some of whom are also "Sant" (see disambig page I created).

As for the Prem Rawat article, I resume my previous argument: the "Sant" tradition is explained in the article. "Sant + second part of the name Maharaj Ji", is a combination self-evident from the article as a name that can refer to Maharaj Ji. In other words, I don't see the "principle of least surprise" as a valid argument to keep Sant Ji in the lead section. There's no real confusion to be avoided. Apart from that, Sant Ji is less often used than (for instance) Balyogeshwar (that's my personal appreciation, after going through quite some text external to Wikipedia on this person). --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sant Ji was an affectionate diminutive for Prem Rawat as a child, never used since. Sant is Hindi, roughly means "holy man." Ji is not a name, it is a mild honorific, like Mr in English, or San in Japanese. Rumiton (talk) 10:05, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Francis, Guru Maharaj Ji referred to himself as "Sant Ji Maharaj" in many letters to premies over the years in the 70s, including after he was married at age 16, by virtue of signing those letters "Sant Ji Maharaj." These letters were published in "And It Is Divine," and "Divine Times" magazines in which he was listed as the "Supreme Editor in Chief." They were published in the United States out of DLM Headquarters in Denver, Colorado. Sant Ji was a moniker that Rawat commonly used when writing to his devotees, so he absolutely was known as "Sant ji Maharaj." Here's one that was published in "Divine Times" in Volume 3 Issue 4, October 15, 1974, in which he thanks premies for providing him and Durga Ji (Marolyn) with his home in Malibu, California (the same one in which he now resides): Thank You Letter, and here's the one inviting premies to Millennium: Millennium Letter. Sylviecyn (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, I think, Sylvie. I had forgotten that Sant Ji signature, it was a long time ago. Still, in 1973 at 15 years old Prem Rawat WAS still a child, so my statement really holds. I doubt whether it has been used in the last 34 years, and it still seems profoundly irrelevant. I was right about Ji, wasn't I? Rumiton (talk) 04:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've just learned that James Randi was also known as Randall Zwinge. How should we deal with it? I think we need to say something like "James Randi, formerly known as Randall Zwinge, a former magician claims Rawat was fat and a fraud". Any thoughts?Momento (talk) 10:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My thought is that your sarcasm is not constructive. There is a consensus that the other names used for Rawat belong on the page, as a natural part of an encyclopedia. Readers should know that the names point to the same person. To take you comment seriously for a second, feel free to edit the James Randi page along the same principles. Msalt (talk) 20:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So we still don't have "Sant Ji" or "Sant Ji Maharaj" in the article. It's entirely verifiable. If the theory is that things which happened 34 years ago are irrelevant we can cut out half of the article. If past actions are legitimate material for biographies then we shold include past names too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It should be added. The source is available above somewhere. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There may be consensus that the names might be appropriately added some where but there is no consensus that childhood names should appear in the lede.Momento (talk) 03:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So fix it... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Momento, please re-add the "Sant Ji" anme that you've inapproprately deleted. As for the position, there's no consensus moveing other names. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no consensus about the position of these names. Not a big deal, IMO, but lets call it as it is. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See Sant Ji. Seems to be a popular nickname... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what your point is. Do you endorse Momento's deletion of this sourced material name from the article? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that the names should be added, and that we still need to find consensus about the best section in the article to place the names by which he was known as a child. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So will Momento delete the name again if it's added? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The odds are good that s/he will, in my opinion. But it's still correct to add it. I've suggested adding all of the alternate names in the second paragraph of the lede. Did I miss a reaction to that compromise? Or maybe I thought it and didn't actually post it. Anyway, whaddya think? Msalt (talk) 07:10, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine with me, but I'm not the editor who's edit warring over this. Momento appears to be holding this article hostage to his preferences. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so we still don't have any mention of "Sant Ji Maharaj". Current footnote 20 says: "A three-day event in commemoration of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, the largest procession in Delhi history of 18 miles of processionists culminating in a public event at India Gate, where Sant Ji Maharaj addressed the large gathering." I suggest we add to the text it references (in the "Childhood" section), "...then known as Sant Ji Maharaj..." Any objections? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The way Balyogeshwar is bolded in the Lede, alongside with Maharaji, is rather misleading, as Maharaji is for some decades now state of things, while Balyogeshwar really isn't, and enough people know that, too. So it appears to me as a piece of, albeit highly literate, ignorance and should be changed, there have been enough suggestions in the incredible discussion above. I would put both child names - Balyogeshwar and Sant Ji - into the childhood section, where they VERY OBVIOUSLY belong, but I hate being reprimanded again for a revert...--Rainer P. (talk) 11:29, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Putting a name by which he is only known in India in the lede is illogical.Momento (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The name Balyogeshwar is bolded because it's a redirect to this article. Does anyone object to my adding "Sant Ji Maharaj" as proposed above? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK in the childhood section, along with Balyogeshwar, see above extremely extensive discussion--Rainer P. (talk) 11:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks awkward in the lede. Remember, the prefix "Bal" in Hindi means "Child" (doesn't it?), as in "Bal Bhagwan Ji" and Balyogeshwar. It really does not fit a 50-year old person. Neither is Satpal Rawat referred to as Bal Bhagwan Ji any more, except in a historic context. And your source Mangalwadi mentions the name only to differenciate Prem R. from his also mentioned brother, which was a plausible issue in their young years. And I find it hard to understand, why this seems to be so hard to realize, and it's not even really contentious per POV, so what's the motive for so stubbornly defending the deficient status quo, when it's so easy to improve?--Rainer P. (talk) 08:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Downton's Perspective

Currently the article relies on 9 references from Downton, from a total of just 84. As a contemporary reporter of the 1970 period Downton is undoubtedly valuable however his work on the Divine Light Mission was coloured by a very specific perspective, about which he was quite explicit –

^ Downton, Sacred Journeys. " From the beginning, Guru Maharaj Ji appealed to premies to give up their beliefs and concepts so that they might experience the Knowledge, or life force, more fully. This, as I have said, is one of the chief goals of gurus, to transform their followers' perceptions of the world through deconditioning. Yet Guru Maharaj Ji's emphasis on giving up beliefs and concepts did not prevent premies from adopting a fairly rigid set of ideas about his divinity and the coming of a new age."

The problem which arises is that nowhere do the references place Rawat in a wider context of ‘gurus’ as defined by Downton (or anyone else), nor is there any explantion of what ‘deconditioning’ Rawat employed nor how that fit within Rawat’s teachings. These omissions would not matter except that these issues underlay Downton’s study and to not make them explicit within the article while relying so heavily on Downton as a source, risks an unacknowledged promotion of a Downtonesque POV. Some reduction in the number of Downton references is probably desirable and/or replacement/complementing with Foss & Larkin who carried out a 30 month study in the same decade. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 14:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(a) The article does not present a "dontwonese" perspective; check what the source is used for. (b) All sources are coloured by the bias of the author (Kent, Foss & Larking, Meltion, and the rest of them), so what? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

a) Jossi that is untrue, Downton's opinions are stated as fact even when there are scholars who disagree with him See here

b} agree

Andries (talk) 21:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the edit for now, since it splits the two sentences sourced to Downton in a way that makes it hard for the reader to follow the narrative. Also, looking at [16], I don't think van der Lans/Derks claim to be in disagreement with Downton. It seems to me that in their timeline they focus on the family split around 1975, following which Hinduistic elements were dropped in favour of a focus on Rawat's personal role as a teacher or saviour. That point is already made 2 paragraphs higher up ("... took control of the Western DLM, and as its sole source of spiritual authority, encouraged students to leave the ashrams and to discard Indian customs and terminology"). The point about a move towards more messianic beliefs is made by Downton as well, but he dates it – perhaps more precisely – to late 1976, also backed up by other sources. Since Derks and van der Lans explicitly refer to Downton's narrative as an extensive description of the ideological changes that occurred, I reckoned that his is the more detailed chronicle of events. Hope that's okay. Cheers, Jayen466 01:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I admit that Lans and Derks may not have written in clear contradiction to what Downton wrote in this respect, but the strong wording by Derks and Van der Lans (accepting Guru Maharaji as a personal saviour) is quite different from Downton. Andries (talk) 05:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(a) The article does not present a "dontwonese" perspective

At present 11% of all references in this article are to one work by Downton, given the very specific (untested and unsupported) proposition that Downton was working to to i.e that the chief goals of gurus, to transform their followers' perceptions of the world through deconditioning. the potential for imbalance is obvious. (b)All sources are coloured by the bias of the author. It is a falacy to present all biases as equal. In this context Downton's work was undertaken with a predisposition to present the activity of 'deconditioning' in an uncritical and even approving manner, in fact Downton's proposition borders on an exceptional claim as per WP:V . but the strong wording by Derks and Van der Lans (accepting Guru Maharaji as a personal saviour) is quite different from Downton. I agree with Jayen that Derks & Lans rely on Downton's chronology but their analysis is very different and makes a useful balance, though it needs careful inclusion. My suggested text at User:Nik Wright2/ Rawat balanced sources is

With his mother and eldest brother having no legal claim within the US, and with opposition from within the American organization neutralized, Prem Rawat was free to exercise the role of lone charismatic leader to the Western branch of the Divine Light Mission. The first evidence of assertion of his control came in late 1976 when a policy of ashram closures that had been begun earlier that year under Mishler’s influence was reversed, while at the same time moves towards democratisation within the DLM following were curtailed[44] Devotionalism became an even greater aspect of Prem Rawat’s ‘teaching’ and the millenarian ideology of the early 1970s fell from use.[45] As the single charismatic leader, unencumbered by competing family members or challenged by assertive officials Prem Rawat reprised, albeit in a north American context, the distinctive role of a Sant Mat Guru.[46][47][48]

Membership of Prem Rawat’s following had begun to change from 1975, according to Derks and Lans pre 1975 followers had been attracted by DLM’s Hinduistic ideology which “offered them an opportunity to legitimate their already existing rejection of the Western utilitarian world view”, while after 1975 new members included those who “had been very religious in their preadolescent years.” Derks and Lans suggest that this preadolescent religiosity, primarily Christian had been lost in adolescence but refound in the ‘satsang’ of Divine Light Mission. The new followers came to see Prem Rawat and their relationship with him as a source of continuous religious experience making Rawat much more important for them than he had been for many of the pre 1975 members.[49]

Footnotes 44^ Price,M. Ibid. At the same time the stress on the community premie, which had led to what was now viewed as excessive democratization, which was strongly repudiated by Maharaj Ji at Frankfurt, has now been controlled by the simple device of blocking public communication channels upwards to the head office. For more than twelve months now, the national publication which carried letters from premies, often extremely critical of other premies and the head office, (but never of Maharaj Ji), has not been printed. Instead premies receive an exclusive diet of full transcripts of Maharaj Ji's satsang at various festivals across the world. Maharaj Ji made it known that he disliked his satsang to be edited and only extracts of it published. At present then, premies have neither a public platform for discussing the mission's policies nor a vehicle for receiving an interpreted policy via the mission's officials. Such a situation, though increasing Maharaj Ji's control over the movement, does so at the cost of expansion and middle-management confidence. 45^ Björkqvist, K Ibid. During the latter half of the 70's, the movement clearly returned towards greater world-rejection, although perhaps not reaching the same level as in 1971-73. The millenarian ideology had lost its credibility owing to a slowdown in the expansion rate, and the millenarian jargon gradually disappeared completely. Emphasis was placed on devotion to the guru, ashram life was again encouraged, and satsang meetings were arranged every evening. 46^ DuPertuis, L. (1986): How people recognize charisma: the case of darshan in Radhasoami and Divine Light Mission. Sociological Analysis, 47, Page 111-124. University of Guam Charisma in Sant Mat / Radhasoami / DLM tradition can best be understood in terms of darshan for which, according to Bharati, "absolutely no parallel" can be found "in any religious act in the West . . . " (1970:161, cited in Eck, 1981:5). Darshan means "sight" - of the deity or the guru who embodies him/her, usually for the purpose of imbibing his/her divine powers or grace (Babb, 1981; Eck:1981). It implies sight on a rich multiplicity of symbolic and spiritual levels which demonstrate a complex mix of doctrinal and mythic, perceptual and visionary, interactional and experiential dimensions in the relationship between a charismatic spiritual leader and his or her followers. 47 ^ Downton, James V., Sacred Journeys: The Conversion of Young Americans to Divine Light Mission, (1979) Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-04198-5 p199 "Although there were still residues of belief in his divinity, in 1976, the vast majority [of premies] viewed the guru primarily as their spiritual teacher, guide, and inspiration but his appearance at an event on December 20th, 1976 in Atlantic City, New Jersey, wearing a Krishna costume for the first time since 1975, signaled a resurgence of devotion and Indian influence. Rawat was elevated to a much greater place in the practice of Knowledge, many people returned to ashram life and there was a shift back from secular tendencies towards ritual and messianic beliefs and practices. 48^ Downton, James V., Ibid. "Signs of rededication both to Guru Maharaj Ji and the inner guru became quite apparent. Most of the premies who left the ashrams in the summer of 1976 began to return in 1977, when more than 600 signed up to enter the ashrams in just a few month's time. 49 ^ Derks, Frans, and Jan M. van der Lans. Ibid. One of the characteristics of these new members is that they had been very religious in their preadolescent years. In those years their religiosity had been characterized by the experiential dimension; they had felt a warm personal relation with Jesus. But this religiosity had disappeared, partially because they had been taught by their religion teachers at secondary school to think in a rational way about religious matters. They lost their capacity for religious experiences, and as a result, the Christian religion lost its plausibility for them. In Divine Light Mission they recognized, during "Satsang,” the religious experiences they had had during their childhood. They came to see Guru Maharaj Ji and their relationship with him as a source of continuous religious experience. This made Guru Maharaj Ji much more important for them than he had been for the pre 1975 members. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:43, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the very specific (untested and unsupported) proposition that Downton was working to to i.e that the chief goals of gurus, to transform their followers' perceptions of the world through deconditioning. Nik, I believe that is neither an untested nor unsupported proposition. The notion that man needs to be freed from his conditioning is indeed a practically universal theme among gurus of all colours. Just to give some examples of similar concepts in the teachings of various gurus, expressed in their own terms:

L. Ron Hubbard (Scientology) tried to free people of "engrams" and the "reactive mind" to allow them to reclaim their psychological freedom and innate capabilities, to become "clear".
J. Krishnamurti: Knowledge Is Conditioning. Q: What do we mean by conditioning? JK: Can the brain ever be free from all the programmes it has received? Is it possible through watching the very activity of thought? This watchfulness makes the brain extraordinarily acute, sharp, clear? This clarity is freedom. [17]
Gurdjieff insisted that unreformed man is a machine: ALL RELIGIONS SPEAK ABOUT DEATH DURING THIS LIFE ON EARTH. Death must come before rebirth. But what must die? False confidence in one’s own knowledge, self-love and egoism. Our egoism must be broken. We must realize that we are very complicated machines, and so this process of breaking is bound to be a long and difficult task. Before real growth becomes possible, our personality must die. [18]
Idries Shah: "Once they realize that no prizes are being given for correct answers, they begin to see that their previous conditioning determines the way they are seeing the material in the stories. So, the second use of the stories is to provide a protected situation in which people can realize the extent of the conditionings in their ordinary lives. The third use comes later, rather like when you get the oil to the surface of a well after you burn of the gases. After we have burnt off the conditioning, we start getting completely new interpretations and reactions to stories." [19]
Adi Da Samraj: "You are habituated to exercising yourself and being conditioned and identified with conditioning in the lower aspects of your appearance here. When Called to exercise yourself intelligently relative to your conditioning and to “consider” it, you tend to become rather silent, or you start babbling and rehearsing your insides, resorting to your conditioned subjectivity, as if that is all there is, as if intelligence has no functional capability, as if you have no greater experience, no greater disposition, no Revelation." [20]
Nirmala Srivastava: "The truth which can be actualized after Self-Realisation is that you are not this body, this mind, this conditioning from the past, this ego, these emotions, but that you are the Pure Spirit." [21]

Indeed it could be argued that similar ideas underlie many of the world religions' teachings as well. So I do not see Downton as biased here, simply scholarly. I don't see him as uncritically supportive, either, as his very next sentence quoted above indicates (Yet Guru Maharaj Ji's emphasis on giving up beliefs and concepts did not prevent premies from adopting a fairly rigid set of ideas about his divinity and the coming of a new age.).

Van der Lans and Derks, on the other hand, write from an explicitly Christian perspective. This is not a problem in terms of their being used as a source here, but their allegiance to a Christian POV should be borne in mind. -- Jayen466 16:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Where did Derks and Lans write from an explicitly Christian persoective? I think that you are mistaken. Andries (talk) 09:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jayen you've done Downton's work for him - but we can not assume that those references you give would have been accetable to Downton and we are left with Downton's assertion but no context against which to test it, in contrast say to Galanter. Yes I think I know what Downton meant but his was a speculative work and it needs balancing in an article like this. Lans and Derks religious allegiance is irrelevant because it does not form the basis for the hypothesis of their paper, which is concerned with group stratification. The criticism you note in Downton is of course criticism of the followers, and by extension excuses (in Downton's terms) the failure of Rawat as a Guru. The criticism is self serving (to Downton) because it leaves his proposition intact - I would describe this as very much not scholarly. But the need is for balancing references which is what I've suggested. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 17:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As a Professor of Sociology working in this field, I am sure that James V. Downton would have known a lot more about these matters than me. I think that he simply did not consider it so relevant to his present context as to go further into it. As for Derks' and van der Lans' assertion that "In Divine Light Mission they recognized, during "Satsang,” the religious experiences they had had during their childhood." (= i.e. that they revived an aspect of their childhood connection to Jesus), this appears to me like it could be somewhat coloured by their Christian POV. I am not sure you would find the same statement in non-Christian sources. But okay, that was their view. Jayen466 19:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you think that Derks and Lans was a Christian source? They described converts to the DLM in a tradionally Christian society. Andries (talk) 09:15, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jayen what Downton may or may not have considered relevant is not at issue - if the source doesn't provide the material it ain't possible to imply it. Downton's book fails on this basis, irrespective of his exalted status as a Professor. It's not a matter that Downton is wrong in his proposition regarding what 'gurus do', it's that there is no context in the book in which to place Rawat in respect of Downton's proposition. As Andries points out Derks and Lans proposition regarding premies connection to Jesus in childhood, is related to the express statement that converts to Rawat had a Christian background with Derks and Lans proposition follows from observation, and the observation is contained in one context. By contrast Downton observes something in Rawatism and then claims that as proof of a proposition, the context for which extends beyond Rawatism. I hope you grasp the logical differences in the two cases.

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 14:51, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry, I can't follow your argument. I fail to see the significance of the sentence This, as I have said, is one of the chief goals of gurus, to transform their followers' perceptions of the world through deconditioning. What he is saying there is not anything extraordinary or controversial. Why should the presence of this sentence affect his suitability as a source? And why should we want to claim to know better? Isn't it simply our job to reflect the sources?

Re Derks and van der Lans' Christian viewpoint, this is mentioned and sourced in [22]. (Also see Jan van der Lans; Frans Derks is the President of KSGV.) If an author writing about another religion has a specific allegiance to a Christian viewpoint, it may (or may not, depending on editors' consensus) be appropriate to identify the source as a Christian one where Christian beliefs enter into the argument. Same if an Islamic scholar writes about Christian beliefs and contrasts or compares them with his own faith; if such an author were quoted in an article about aspects of Christianity, then I would expect the source to be identified as an Islamic one. Cheers, Jayen466 19:02, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know that one of the books that Jan van der Lans (not Derks) wrote was commissioned by the KSGV (Catholic org.), but the one that I quoted here in this thread was not, and written both by Derks and Van der Lans. Andries (talk) 00:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I had gotten my wires crossed there at first; but since Derks is the president of the KSGV and Jan van der Lans studied in a Christian monastery and then became an academic at a Catholic university (according to our article on him), I submit it does not make much difference. -- Jayen466 00:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From van der Lans' obituary: He had part-time appointments in the psychology department and the theological faculty of the Catholic University of Nijmegen, and although his work was certainly not without theological preferences and bias, he presented himself at both institutions as an empirically oriented psychologist. Jayen466 01:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But clearly Jan van der Lans and Derks tried to write neutrally and their articles were published in on topic scholarly magazines (Update) or University press (Mercer university press). Andries (talk) 19:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having read one of their articles since then, I agree that it is neutral and scholarly. What set my alarm bells off was the apparent idea that Rawat had somehow usurped the feelings that Premies had for Jesus in their childhood. This seemed potentially self-serving, coming from a Christian theologian, who might see an emotional attachment to Jesus as somehow more proper than an attachment to another figure. But on the evidence of what I have read so far, I have no objection to their being used as just another scholarly source like all the others. Jayen466 23:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Biographies of Living Persons

Much of the edit warring on this article has revolved around disputes over the requirements of the WP:BLP. Perhaps it will help us move forward if we come to basic agreement on some of the issues involved. To quote the policy:

From lede: "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space."

From Reliable Sources section: "Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for controversial, derogatory, or otherwise unverifiable material about a living person other than the publisher or author of the material (see below)."

Two issues immediately come to mind: 1) Is all criticism "derogatory"? If not, how do we distinguish "fair" criticism from derogation? 2) Is the immediate deletion provision limited to "contentious" material?

I don't have any opinion on the first, except a gut feeling that criticism properly sourced is not by definition derogatory. I would love to hear the opinion of others though.

On the second question though, I think I can shed some light. In the Balyogeshwar section above, Momento accused Francis of changing the structure of that key sentence of the BLP policy quoted above to change its meaning, and argued "The sentence reads 'unsourced' OR 'poorly sourced contentious material'. Not 'contentious material, unsourced or poorly sourced'. "

I believe this is not correct. After the initial paragraph, the BLP policy spells the policy out in greater detail. And the section specifically entitled "Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" reads as follows:

"Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy."

That seems to settle the issue by making it clear that the immediate deletion policy applies specifically to contentious material. Agreed? Msalt (talk) 22:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not all criticism is derogatory, Msalt. NPOV ask us to present significant viewpoints that are published by reputable sources, and BLP asks us to be most cautious in our evaluation of sources and external links. The issue that has been argued, is that linking to a self-published source that contains derogatory material, conjectural interpretation of sources, and hat does not meet WP:V is a violation of Wikipedia content policies. There is also the issue of undue weight that needs to be taken into account in this context, as it relates to sources and viewpoints presented. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:37, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Jossi. Very helpful. I guess I'm still unclear what is derogatory vs. what is critical but not derogatory. Say we see a web site that lists a bunch of reputable sources documenting harsh criticisms. How do we distinguish self-published websites (or are all websites self-published by nature? Is it connection to a journal or periodical?) How can we tell if those criticisms are derogatory or verifiable but unpleasant truth?

Also, you mention conjectural interpretation of sources. That seems common, even to verifiable sources. For example, that allegedly "speculative sentence" by Miller. It seems only right to ignore such conjecture and not quote it, but must we throw out the entire source for such a common act? Msalt (talk) 09:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Msalt is talking about two different but complimentary paragraphs here. The first is a paragraph about the importance of references/sources, the second is about contentious material.

The first paragraph begins with "Be very firm about the use of high quality references". High quality references/sources is all about ensuring verifiability and eliminating original research because the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. The "reference/source" paragraph gives two examples of material that should be deleted immediately on references/sources grounds. The first material to be deleted is any "unsourced" material i.e. it has no sources at all and this is fundamental policy and the second material to be deleted is "poorly sourced contentious material" i.e. it has inferior sources and might be OK if the material itself wasn't contentious. Either of those situations should be corrected in any case but since this is a BLP they should "removed immediately and without discussion". Jimbo Wales provides the following comment in the Verifiability policy - "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons". There is no suggestion that the material needs to be contentious to be "aggressively removed", only that it is not sourced.

The second paragraph concerns "contentious material" and describes three types of "contentious material" that should be removed. And they are - "unsourced contentious material", contentious material that "relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability" and contentious material that is "is a conjectural interpretation of a source paragraph". You'll note that this paragraph instructs editors to remove "contentious material" if it "is a conjectural interpretation of a source paragraph". In other words, you can cite all the sources you like but if the editor makes "a conjectural interpretation of a source paragraph" is should be removed.

There are two separate but complimentary issues here.Momento (talk) 10:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Momento, for a very clear and detailed analysis. That's quite helpful. I wonder if anyone else has an opinion, agreeing or not? I have to say that I read the two sections and just don't see the distinction you do. Not that unsourced items are OK, but it's a matter of application. No one expects a reference every 5 words, yet sometimes the discussion here has been reduced to that level. In many cases, references already used on the article in fact document the "unsourced" points -- in other words, they are actually sourced but just not cited. It doesn't make sense to me that in a case like that, Jimbo Wales would want the uncontentious item aggressively removed without discussion. Msalt (talk) 17:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A respected expert who writes that "Pavarotti was flat" is a criticism. An unknown who writes that "Pavarotti is fat" is being derogatory. The BBC Music website is published by a respected organization and may be a source for material on Pavarotti, a website created by an anonymous person is not.Momento (talk) 10:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And on the subject of "conjectural interpretation of sources", quoting Miller's opinion is fair. Misquoting a source is not. Remember this disgraceful example - Hunt's quote is - "Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschews material possessions". Some editor's "conjectural interpretation" was "Prem Rawat turned away from asceticism, no longer denouncing material possessions". That is a conjectural interpretation on a massive scale.Momento (talk) 10:51, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great to see some serious discussion on this issue. Regarding interpretation of words like "high" in "high quality sources" it seems to me that Wikipedia values reputation, and does so on the logical presumption that a source (which can include either a publisher, a writer, or the material they produce) who has worked hard to establish a reputation in a certain field can be expected to deliver neutral, high quality research. This is what makes their opinion valuable. "Self-published sources" are those without a carefully built-up reputation for neutrality, and in the worst cases may even have tried to achieve notability by the strength and consistency of their biases. Members of opposing religious groups and apostates, among others, fall into this category. Not all websites are self-published. Highly reputable sources often have websites, and the subjects of articles sometimes have their own, which are acceptable as sources with certain provisos. OTOH, forums and blogs which contain unknown and changing content are never acceptable. Rumiton (talk) 15:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

@Msalt: Your question about Say we see a web site that lists a bunch of reputable sources documenting harsh criticisms. In these cases, rather than using the website as a source, you can explore the reputable sources listed there and assess their suitability for inclusion, as per arguments presented by Rumiton and Momento above, which is based on our content policies pof WP:V#SOurces, WP:BLP, and others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good call. I guess in this article, the question arises as to whether a web site such as I describe can be included as an external link. I don't really see anyone advocating the use of web sites like that as sources for contentious material in the article. Where we do use them, it seems to be for unchallenged items such as existence of the satellite broadcasts. Msalt (talk) 17:40, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, such websites are not appropriate to be linked to. That is the opinion voiced by several editors here and in other noticeboards, an opinion that is based on WP:BLP and WP:EL. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK. But I thought you said earlier EL's containing criticism (if well and verifiably documented) were OK. Here you seem to say that the very existence of criticism makes a website inappropriate as an EL. Am I misreading your comments? Msalt (talk) 00:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Was just about to write the same sort of comment as Msalt's (but got ec'd). Msalt, indeed, in the external links section, we wouldn't provide links to dozens of webpages containing each separate aspect of what has already been covered in references. If a website is an acceptable summary of such material, we provide the single link. And we try to keep the external links section balanced too: it shouldn't give a disproportionate image of what's available on the web, in no direction. It is recommended in Wikipedia EL guidance to use external links that are not yet used as sources in the article: this also excludes to repeat sources that are used directly in the article again in the EL section (for instance, we wouldn't link to Melton sources, available online, in the external links section when they're already used as sources in the article) - a website that summarizes would be OK, even if it also contains material that are too much minutae compared to what we consider notable enough to be mentioned in the article itself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is recommended in Wikipedia EL guidance to use external links that are not yet used as sources in the article. Not really. Per WP:EL (my highlight): Wikipedia articles may include links to Web pages outside Wikipedia. Such pages could contain further research that is accurate and on-topic; information that could not be added to the article for reasons such as copyright or amount of detail (such as professional athlete statistics, movie or television credits, interview transcripts, or online textbooks); or other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article for reasons unrelated to their reliability (such as reviews and interviews). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the third paragraph of the lead section of WP:EL:

The subject of this guideline is external links that are not citations of article sources.

Note also, WP:EL#Links to be considered, #4:

Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources.

--Francis Schonken (talk) 19:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but the EL guideline cannot trump policy. And if a site violates WP:BLP then the fact that it may contain material sourced to reliable sources, is moot. If there is such sourced material in that site, one can make a case for including that source, but we avoid linking to it. An extreme example to illustrate my point, the Stormfront website may have a list of sources or newspaper articles about an orthodox Jew that has committed a crime, but we do not link to it on that orthodox Jew's bio in WIkipedfia, do we? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinating discussion, thanks all. I think the reason we wouldn't link to the Stormfront would not be whether or not it included valid sources, , but because it is not reliable and is of course hate speech. (I've been on the other end of that exchange, having Stormfront or some page like that link to MY web page with a favorable comment, just because it criticised mainstream politicians. Yikes!)

I'm troubled by the idea that we can't link to a website unless it also meets BLP. Wikipedia imposes very strict standards on itself, for good reason, but some of these standards are not required for verifiability. For example, on this talk page Momento argued that we couldn't link to a site because it contained original research. That's a Wikipedia standard, but in fact it seems like original research is exactly what we seek from our sources (provided they are reliable.) Similary, we impose extremely strict standards on our BLPs, but I'm not sure it makes a website or book unreliable or unverifiable if it doesn't share those very strict standards. I'm not sure any websites on earth about Prem Rawat would meet a strict reading of BLP, other than one he published himself, and only then because self-published sites are granted exemption from some of these standards. Thoughts? Msalt (talk) 20:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your second paragraph, Msalt, this might clarify a bit: [23] (aka the brainfart - no offense taken).

In short, we need secondary sources to establish notability; once notability (with all the connotations attached to it in Wikipedia context) is established, a topic can be included in the encyclopedia. Then, and only then, it can also be illustrated by a measured amount of primary sources. Thus, a two step approach. Compare WP:PSTS (policy). --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be troubled, Msalt. It makes sense, it has been agred upon by other editors, as this is standard practice. From WP:BLP: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link. Questionable sources reads: Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking. Such sources include websites and publications that express views that are widely acknowledged as extremist, are promotional in nature, or rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. Also note that WP:SELFPUB self-published sources are acceptable on articles about themselves, with some caveats. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:55, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the specifics of the external links discussed. I created this section to try to reach some common ground on the broader policy issues, as a foundation for reaching consensus on specifics. The point that I'm not sure you've addressed, Jossi, is the gulf between the very strict requirements of BLP, and "questionable sources." In my opinion, very few of the acknowledged reliable sources would meet all of the requirements of BLP. But they don't have to, as long as they do NOT have a poor reputation for fact-checking, their views are NOT widely acknowledged as extremist, they are not promotional, and they do not rely heavily on rumors and personal opinions.

To take this away from the specifics of the case at hand, I would say that my own website "The Skeleton Closet" [www.realchange.org] is a reliable source that does not meet BLP but would be valid as an external link. And indeed, it IS used as an external link by a number of Wikipedia pages. Everything I list comes from a reliable source, generally books or leading newspapers and magazines. I add some POV but the views are certainly not extremist, and they all rely heavily on well-documented facts. Original research is the perfect example-- perfectly acceptable, indeed welcomed in a reliable source but not acceptable in Wikipedia under BLP. Don't you think? Msalt (talk) 07:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You make me smile, Msalt. To continue with the good start you have made here, I think you are going to have to separate your Wiki editor self from your other, scandal reporting persona. I think you can do it, others have achieved cleavings like that without becoming terminally schizoid. I just had a look at your Skeleton site and found it to be an immaculate example of the kind of external link that Wikipedia must avoid like the Black Death. Case in point, chosen at random (and I never even heard of this chap) Gary Bauer: This righteous little guy took tens of thousands of dollars from the Moonies, dodged the draft and is alleged to be having an affair with a twenty-something woman, despite his marriage of 27 years. I should not even be quoting that in this public talk page, it breaks just about every Wikipedia rule there is, not just BLP. I am sure after the discussion so far you can see the problems for yourself. Not that there is not a place for Skeletons, and other websites like it. Wikipedia just isn't that place. Rumiton (talk) 15:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please be WP:CIVIL in these discussions. Inflammatory language and belittling statements such as "I think you can do it" are not what this article needs at the moment. Content-wise, OK you've found a summary that is probably over-written. Sorry. But it is summarizing a detailed discussion of those criticisms that is supported by reliable sources with hyperlinks to each, on a non-partisan, public, signed and long-running web page, published by an organization and written by an editor who answers nearly every email and often corrects or improves content from those emails.

What exactly are you objecting to? The fact that the page summarizes criticisms? A bit of purple writing you managed to find? I think you continue to make the mistake of imposing Wikipedia's standards on every source mentioned on Wikipedia. Can you address the example of original research? Do you think we shouldn't link to any web site that contains OR? Msalt (talk) 19:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I appear to belittle, that was not my intention. I was just trying to say that putting some of our other pursuits behind us is crucial to a neutral Wikipedia result. eg, I was in the Australian military for a long time in a fairly senior career position, and in private I am a fierce defender of the Australian military record, and for that matter, Australia in general. Yet I hope and believe the Australian and US Navy articles I have edited have not reflected this. I have just tried to improve the focus on the issues at hand. And yes, I DO believe, especially in the case of a living person, that any place we send our readers to becomes a part of the article, and needs to be of just as high a quality as the article itself. If you or I were to become the subjects of a Wikipedia article (don't laugh, such things can happen) I believe we would become firmly of the same opinion. Rumiton (talk) 14:14, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I have any difficulty separating the hats I wear as publisher of a website, and as Wikipedia editor, nor do I think I am being particularly defensive of your criticism (though I'm sure some would disagree.) The only reason I mention my site is that I think, as it happens, it is almost an ideal-typical example of the kind of website I am curious about -- well-documented and non-partisan yet critical. If it helps the hypothetical, imagine a similar but better website with all snark removed and the most impeccable sources possible, a sort of online encylcopedia of religious figures -- by Melton, if you like -- that summarizes criticisms of them from a meticulously fair witness POV. Say, a Snopes.com for criticism of spiritual teachers. Quality would not be the issue.

Do you think such a site would be permissible, or is the focus on criticism by itself disqualifying? And why would original research on such a site would make it less acceptable? Msalt (talk) 00:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The insurmountable problem is, who decides a website is "well-documented and non-partisan yet critical"? You? Me? Someone's ex? That's why "Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article.Momento (talk) 00:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Still, I'm not the least bit impressed by your endless recitation of policies and guidelines. But that troubles me not. What troubles me is your usurpation of consensus, where there is none – aided by dubious quotes of input by others, that did not establish consensus either. For instance you refer to a WP:ANI discussion. Here's the link to it: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive370#Francis Schonken. Six people participate. Three defend your stance. Three defend my stance. On each side *one* uninvolved. The arguments of Relata refero and of ThuranX (both on your side in this debate) were copied above to #By website. And rebutted (that is to say, Relata refero's was; ThuranX's is so full of unclear and unfounded depreciating comments that it is still waiting above for a clarification). And then you're building on this "hearsay" to make it sound as if this was some kind of unalterable "consensus" established above our heads. Will not do. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus cannot trump policies, Francis, and my point is that linking to these sites breaches established policies and guidelines/ If there is a need to clarify policy and there is no agreement on how to apply it, then will need to take this to the next step in dispute resolution, which I proposed a week ago. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Consensus is policy. The only policy that can not be trumped by consensus, and explicitly so, is Wikipedia:Neutral Point of View. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, there are ArbCom precedents about this issue, that supports the arguments made by me and others. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Applies, explicitly, to the Sathya Sai Baba article. Extrapolation of ArbCom rulings beyond their original scope is discouraged (there are some comments by arbitrators about that, could look up the links if you need them). Anyway, from that same ruling: "It is inappropriate for a user to insert a link to a website maintained by the user (or in which the user plays an important role)." So, again, I ask you to clarify what I asked above in #Unsupported claims and Lack of Good Faith. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ArbCom decions are no case law, but they represent best practices and applications of policy. As I am not adding any links myself, your question is unnecessary harassment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You added links to the talk page, still recently. The Sathya Sai Baba ruling you linked to explicitly states "...and talk pages". That the Sathya Sai Baba ruling (which is also a content ruling disfavoured by more recent arbitrators) does not apply was brought forward by me in your defense too. Nonetheless, I'm going to ask about your affiliation to Rawat-related websites whenever I think this pertains to the discussion at hand (I mean when the unclarity about it lingers above the discussion). Of course, you're free to answer or not. The insights you provided in the pages linked from my user talk page give no clear answer to the question I asked. So I feel free to ask too. And will take no anathema, or worse, on the issue. I mean, it would be better for us to learn from yourself what this is all about, than read distorted information about it on other websites. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:34, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have I added external links to this page? If I had, it was in the context of sources requested by you or others. And I have asked you politely to stop asking questions that you should know better than not to ask. And do not give me any BS about good intentions, because I see none, Francis. I think you are crossing a line that you should not with that line of questioning. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AGF, I do so on you. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

discuss the edits, and not the editor; also from WP:COI: Another case is within disputes relating to non-neutral points of view, where underlying conflicts of interest may aggravate editorial disagreements. In this scenario, it may be easy to make claims about conflict of interest. Do not use conflict of interest as an excuse to gain the upper hand in a content dispute. Enough said. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:28, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "discuss the edits, and not the editor", please then, retract the two last sentences of your edit above (23:48, 25 February 2008) --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another arbCom case [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think if the article we were working on were George W. Bush or Barrack Obama, anonymous DomainsByProxy sites reporting hearsay would not even be considered as suitable external links for an encyclopedia, and I can't see why this article should be different. -- Jayen466 22:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Hearsay"? And where did that OR conclusion come from? See, regarding "hearsay", my comment above to Jossi's use of "hearsay". --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Frances, let me give you some hypothetical examples: If someone started an anonymous DomainsbyProxy website and wrote about you that you used to be an 'alcoholic' and that they carried you up the stairs of your home on various occasions, or if they allege that you smoked cannabis every night of the week in November 1983, isn't that Hearsay in United States law? As for anonymous websites making defamatory statements, I believe that GoDaddy.com and DomainsbyProxy will only reveal the identity of an anonymous online defamer if you can prove that the statements made about you are false. Now, how would you go about proving that such statements are false? What redress would you have? -- Jayen466 23:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as you welcome my input I thought I might add that as a reasonably earnest truth-seeking and ethical person I personally wanted to know about the veracity of those statements from Michael Dettmers and so arranged to meet him and ask for myself. I would make my own mind up. He told me personally all of those things and more, and importantly, that he was not afraid to stand by his words. In fact he said he welcomed Maharaji to sue him for defamation. Dettmers subsequently put his name to all the 'hearsay' he published on these websites. He personally told me that he knew Prem Rawat wouldn't sue him because essentially he was telling the truth. Make of it what you will. As far as I know, all those reports were made not on an anonymous website but on ex-premie.org and the ex-premie forum. Those are not anonymous Domainsby Poxy sites are they? And none of the people who made allegations mentioned above chose to be anonymous -quite the opposite. Sure these things have been denied by the organisations and are dismissed as hearsay but did they sue for defamation? Talking of redress, Jayen. Don't you think Rawat who has indeed sued critics who 'slipped up' and actually committed an offence, would not hesitate to sue these people if he had a case? He has had that option for legal redress as would anyone who was slandered publicly by known persons. PatW (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pat, thanks for making the enquiries. However, please try to see the bigger picture. You say that many of these statements attributed to Dettmers and Mishler on the anonymous, self-published website can be sourced to posts on ex-premie forums. If we accept information derived from such sources here, then it should be according to a principle that could equally find application in any other Wikipedia article on any other notable figure. We cannot make special rules specifically for this article. Now, internet forums, blogs and self-published websites are explicitly excluded as reliable sources according to present Wikipedia policy, especially so where the allegations made are derogatory or otherwise contentious. The same goes for first-hand personal knowledge – it is inadmissible as a source in Wikipedia. The standard is verifiability, not truth. And a forum post or a self-published website explicitly does not meet Wikipedia's verifiability criteria. What Dettmers says may very well be the truth. But would this be so in any case where an anonymous website repeats an allegation made by a person in an Internet forum? Most definitely not. I do not see how including such information, even as an External Link, could possibly be compatible with WP policies and guidelines. Try to think of the potential abuses that could and would occur if a principle were established that anonymously hosted renditions of allegations made in Internet forums qualified for inclusion in an encyclopedia. It just doesn't work. Wikipedia cannot be in the business of repeating unpublished, personal recollections of a person. I know that it is very trying, but I am sure you can see the validity of the principle if you transpose it to the article on any other person than the one we are dealing with here. Best wishes, Jayen466 14:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Jayen, I perfectly well understand this and have never sought to include this material here. I just don't quite understand the perception that ex-premie.org is anonymous or whether you are aware of the following. There is an interview with Mr Dettmers published on ex-premie.org Ex-premie.org published that interview with his permission. That is a quite separate thing to his forum posts of course. Why do say ex-premie.org is anonymous? Maybe it's a technical thing I'm unaware of but I thought that the people in charge were quite transparent about their identities. I have no idea where all this is going but I personally think that the rules are being wielded so literally and with Jossi's ever-present COI as such a major factor that a fair article simply cannot be achieved. IMHO This constant contesting ad nauseam can only be broken if some higher level Wiki consensus is brought to bear. I have no confidence to do anything other than sit in the wings and hope that this happens. Frankly as long as Jossi's 'clarity' about WP rules is enforced everybody is apparently impotent and wasting their wisdom. I like a debate where consensus can be reached but that is plainly not in Jossi's equation. PatW (talk) 02:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How many warnings need to be issued to you by how many editors, for you to stop making such comments? FYI, there is no "high-level consensus". This is it, and as painful and tedious as it may be, that is the way it works. There are no shortcuts to WP:CONSENSUS. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Pat, I was referring to the anonymous registration of one of the websites (www.prem-rawat-maharaji.info/). If some of the material hosted there, or in the ex-premie forum, is taken from another source, and that source can be considered reliable, then the material could be included. A source doesn't become unreliable by being quoted on a website that is unreliable. It's just that you would look up and quote the source directly then. Jayen466 02:29, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The argument was rebutted above, at #By website. Note that you're making statements, that are in no way anonymous, seem like they're anonymous. Distortion of information. And rebutted, while referenced in the source to material published elsewhere (in sources found reliable enough to act as references *until this day* in the Prem Rawat article), with name and everything to it. No, straw man argument, and again, starting the same argument, that was already discussed in another section and rebutted, apparently not according to your liking there. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please also inform yourself of OCILLA, material can be taken down much easier than what you "believe". --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense. You may have argued against it, but that does not make it a rebuttal. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:50, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, if you want to contest it, do so above, then we can see whether your doubts match up to the arguments already provided. I really dislike this method of running away from a discussion when you run out of arguments, and start a new one in a new spot, proposing the same arguments as if nothing had been said yet. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:59, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, my arguments in that section have already been made. If repeated theme here, so what? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in the end it starts to amount to some sort of trolling.

Don't be surprised that I reiterate my argument, again, that you should probably be disqualified from taking part in the decision of which EL's are listed in the Prem Rawat article. You have a professional interest in Rawat-related websites. You don't want to clarify how profound that interest is, but from all we know it is professional. You don't get to decide on the representation of your competitors' websites in Wikipedia. No amount of forumshopping, wikilawyering on BLP, NPA and other policies/guidelines, etc can alleviate that situation, unless you're prepared to clarify the situation and we take it from there.

PS: above I asked you to remove a PA. I insist. --Francis Schonken (talk) 05:33, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that DMCA compliance and OCILLA enable a copyright owner or trademark holder to effect removal of infringing information from a website. However, this does not lift the anonymity of the website owner. The owner has to comply, otherwise the ISP takes down their site, but their identity is not revealed to the complainant. As far as I know, DMCA and OCILLA have no application when it comes to taking down defamatory, as opposed to infringing, material. Taking down defamatory material and having the identity of an anonymous defamer revealed is, from what I have read, a fairly complicated process. The first problem is that courts are reluctant to assume jurisdiction, since by definition, the location of the anonymous website owner is unknown. If, for example, it should turn out that they are abroad, the court may find that they started a proceeding that falls outside their competence. The other difficulty, already alluded to earlier, is that the plaintiff must be able to prove conclusively that the information given is factually wrong (the interests of the complainant are balanced against the right to free and anonymous speech on the Internet). Delivering such proof may involve considerable difficulty, especially where the allegations made are of a personal nature and/or concern events which occurred some time ago and were not subject to any public record. In addition, there is the fact that any attempt to take legal measures will also involve publicity, which will ensure that the allegations gain much wider currency than they otherwise would. In such a case, it is possible to win the lawsuit but still lose the battle, since, to put it simply, mud sticks. For example, I can remember several cases where celebrities were accused of sex crimes; even in those cases where it was subsequently found that the accusation was malicious or unfounded, what the public remembers is the association with a sex crime. Jayen466 18:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I ask again, to consider the next step of dispute resolution, if we can find no agreement on the application of WP:BLP and WP:EL to these anonymous sites. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with you Jossi. Unless BLP policy is changed, self-published websites can never be linked to a BLP.Momento (talk) 03:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Protected for one week.

I have protected this article for one week in the face of the simmering and apparently increasing edit warring going on here. I strongly suggest that you work out the content issues on this talk page, civilly. Nandesuka (talk) 15:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Maybe now editors can take a well deserved break from this article and continue contributing elsewhere. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, no thanks. All it takes is that one person makes a substantial revision for the article to be locked? Janice Rowe (talk)

If you disagree with the protection, you can always make a request for unprotection at WP:RFPP ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

{{editprotected}} This material should be removed ("An event in August 1973 threatened to destroy the Rawat movement’s claim to be concerned with ‘peace’. Following an incident in which the young Rawat had a shaving foam ‘pie thrown in his face, the pie thrower, radical journalist Pat Halley was viciously attacked with a hammer by devotees of Guru Maharaj Ji.[30]") for the following reasons.

The only source provided is the magazine that employed Pat Halley, who threw the pie.

The source does not say "An event in August 1973 threatened to destroy the Rawat movement’s claim to be concerned with ‘peace’". It is Nik Wright2's unsourced OR.

It goes against BLP Policy - "Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability".Thanks Momento (talk) 21:52, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The incident was reported by the Associated Press. They were careful enough to say that Haley told police that he was beaten by followers, but the AP doesn't make that assertion themselves. It also says that there were no arrests. When the protection is lifted we should make that distinction. I assume that the AP is a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

UPI reports that Prem Rawat himself gave the pie-thrower a "forgiveness blessing". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, for what it's worth, I think that this sentence:

An event in August 1973 threatened to destroy the Rawat movement’s claim to be concerned with ‘peace’.

Is unsupported by sources and shouldn't be in the text. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:18, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This happens when an editor bypasses consensus and discussions, makes a massive edit, enters into an edit war, and the page gets protected because of that. The page should not have been protected. If this is not disruption, Will, what is? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that making massive changes without discussion is disruptive. Do you agree that removing sourced, NPOV material is also disruptive? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nik did propose his alternative version and it was discussed in approving terms by Francis. Andries (talk) 10:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:BRD. If an editor makes a bold edit which is subsequently reverted, then does not revert again and discuss and seeks consensus without further revers, that is the preferred way, as you well know. Of course, if the material is a possible BLP violation, we apply the do no harm principle, and leave the material out while discussing and seeking consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BRD is an essay, not a policy. It appears that the claim of "possible BLP" violations have been extended to the breaking point in this article. Removing the subject's childhood name, despite ample sources and consensus, and without any legitimate claim to a BLP violation, is an example of policy abuse. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I have told you before Will BeBack, I removed the phrase "less frequently Balyogeshwar". Which was unsourced. I'm sure in time someone will correct the lede to say "and Balyogeshwar in India" because that's were the source comes from.Momento (talk) 01:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, Will. I start doubting your ability to remain impartial here. How can you compare a silly editwar about a name, with the behavior by NikWright? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

At least editors were engaged in discussing the names issue. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:23, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And while BRD is not policy, WP:CONSENSUS is. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are too many silly edit wars going on here, including those the violate consensus. I'm not defending NikWright's behavior. I hope you're not defending Momento's. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Am I, Will? I have asked Momento to engage in discussions, and alerted him in his talk page; I have alerted other edit-warring editors here as well; I have asked people to pursue mediation, but there are no takers. Why do you think is that? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, Jossi, I would welcome mediation or other DR on any of these issues at any time. I'm unfamiliar with the process for initiating it, but welcome specific suggestions from you or any other experienced editor. So I'm certainly a "taker", but I'm not the one edit-warring. Msalt (talk) 08:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MEDIATION is a voluntary, non-binding process to assist editors with disputes. To request mediation you simply start the process here: WP:RFM. Note that mediation requires good faith and willingness from involved parties, see Wikipedia:Requests for mediation/Common reasons for rejection ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may not seem like it to you, Jossi, but I think that to many, including myself, there IS an impression that you are defending Momento, for a couple of reasons. First, on this Talk page you are very quick to caution, chastise or disagree with others, but rarely seem to do so with Momento, even in the fact of very aggressive and unilateral behavior. Second, in the discussion over the Administrator's Noticeboard complaint, on several occasions you explicitly defended Momento [24], [25], [26], argued against sanctions on M. [27] or rebutted the criticisms of M. [28], [29], [30]. If you made any comments in that discussion that did not resist the criticism or sanctioning of Momento, I was unable to find them. When you have criticized Momento, like on M's talk page as you note, it has been very effective. I truly think that a few more words from you to Momento now and again would do wonders to calm this page -- more than any article protection could. Msalt (talk) 22:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since you are so critical of me Msalt, perhaps we should revisit the first time you reverted me for deleting what you call "NPOV, sourced material". It began on Feb 15th when I added a ^{[citation needed]} to an uncited comment by Ellen Barker [[31]]. I waited a further two days for the comment to be cited and when no cite was added I deleted it [[32]] according to Wiki VER - "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed". Within an hour you reverted my delete [[33]]. Can you explain your actions. Because I'm getting bored explaining mine.Momento (talk) 00:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To quote Jossi, not interested, Momento. (I explained this particular edit in detail in the summary and on the Talk page [34] 10 days ago. You must be the only person here who wants me to talk MORE. I feel like the long-winded uncle at a party, here.)

I don't mean to be critical of you at all, but of your recent editing style (as I am of PatW's arguing style, but not him.) Have you noticed that you are in the thick of nearly every edit war on this article? Common sense should tell you there's a message in there. I have a personal rule for myself -- if I meet three assholes in one day, I assume that I am the one being the asshole. If you're getting tired of explaining your actions, perhaps you should act less. No other editor makes nearly as many edits to this article as you do. Msalt (talk) 04:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, if the WP rules are so clear and not open to interpretation as you claim then I can only conclude that you think you are the only one here who's grasped their true meaning, cos no one has agreed with you so far. You seem to be the self-proclaimed Lawman here. I have no idea what 'mediation' really means but if it meant some other higher 'authority' people from Wikipedia sort of took over and let us plebs know what what the rules actually were I'd be delighted to accept their wisdom. Frankly I don't think you have many people who trust you and that's the problem. The trouble is even when unbiased people DO actually arrive you don't like their understanding of the rules and start accusing them of 'taking sides' with the dreaded critics, or of simply not knowing the meaning of WP guidelines as well as you. Don't you get it that you have demonstrated that you a) put your understanding way above others (isn't that arrogance?) and b) you are unwilling to move in the direction of consensus and are willing to rule the roost despite mistrust in your authority. Can I ask you a question Jossi? Imagine you were left to finish this article on your own or maybe with help from Momento (with your combined great understanding of the WP rules and with no contest) do you think it would be an unbiased article when you'd finished? Would you care to answer that straight please, without dodging the question?PatW (talk) 02:31, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not interested, PatW. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:37, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, I'm sorry if my question was too blunt. I understand that you will only enjoin polite discussion. I will try to keep it that way. Can I respectfully push you for an answer? Do you think you would make a better job of this article if you were left alone? If you simply want more neutral editors to come here and help you uphold and defend WP rules/guidelines would you please invite same to come here. It's slightly exasperating that when other editors do take an interest in this article you quickly disagree with their take on policy. It leaves us less WP savvy mimor editors quite confused. Can you see that? Where are the Wikki-wise people to back you up on all this? We are quite ready to learn.PatW (talk) 10:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi dear, looks as though you view making a response to a request for dialog from a self-confessed ex-premie who claims to be a member of a "hurt-group" as tantamount to fraternising with the enemy. You are very wise not to respond. Better fade away gently than go out with big stinking bang. (Sorry someone found the use of the word 'smelly' abusive in my earler comment that got deleted. But I meant it, and have amplified the point by using the word 'stinking' - probably more apposite in the circumstances. The more jossi wriggles the bigger the stink gets. He is, after all, Prem Rawat's press officer.Matt Stan (talk) 17:17, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rationale for unprotecting

I wouldn't keep the article protected longer than necessary. Here's a reason: on this talk page we've been working hard on the content of the Prem Rawat article. There has also been some talk quite far from actually working on an improvement of the article text. Since the protection occurred, the balance is certainly shifting much more in the direction of "remotely (un)related talk" (PatW and others, I hope you can take a hint). Also for myself, I feel less incentive to work on article content under the current conditions: I've said I'm somewhat bored by the article's subject, and that writing a good article is enough incentive for me - discussing without being able to implement agreed improvement, or without being able to try out rewordings has just a little too little incentive for me now. So, I'd like unprotection could be considered on such grounds.

With that rationale I don't want in any way to cast a doubt on the protecting admin's decision. It was the right thing to do. And probably also, unprotecting without being sure that Nik (and Janice, etc) won't repeat the trick would not be a good idea either. Just offering my thoughts. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd love to take your hint Francis but I humbly predict that eventually you'll see that what you now consider "remotely (un)related talk" is in fact extremely germane to this article. Please look briefly at my Talk discussion page near the bottom 'Warning on soapbox, arguing, and personal attacks' where I explain my behaviour to Jossi and Willbeback (who is also critical of my approach)PatW (talk) 11:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

I'm sure every one agrees that Nik Wright2's addition of 12,000 bytes of undiscussed material is unacceptable. I suggest we demonstrate our commitment to proper editing behavior by asking that this page be un-protected and that Nik agrees not to edit for a week.Momento (talk) 01:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page was protected globally for a reason. I think there are others besides Nik Wright2 editing disruptively. Msalt (talk) 04:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone except one, perhaps. What Nik Wright did was fine by me. I'm sure everyone agrees that not everyone agrees with Momento, who is perhaps making unwaranted assumptions about what everyone agrees about, agreed? 147.114.226.172 (talk) 11:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articles are always protected on the "wrong version". There've been a lot of "silly edit wars" on this article. Why don't we resolve some of those before we worry about removing the page protection. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I read Nik's edit in its entirety and only a couple of small passages are problematic. Look, guys, may I remind you that the POV-pushing on this page was so bad that it attracted media attention (the recent Register article). I would have thought that that spotlight would have ended it. But, judging from the comments on this talk page, the blatent POV-pushing is still going on. The fact that Will had to take an LATimes article on how much Rawat paid for his house to the reliable sources noticeboard is ridiculous. Will appears to be on the right track here to help make this article NPOV. Some of you need to follow his lead. Cla68 (talk) 02:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is not if the edit by that user is problematic or not. The issue is that the user bypassed discussions by taking an unilateral approach, and on top of that he edit-warred, while other editors had the common sense to work in developing consensus. That is "blatent" (sic) disruption. As for the article your refer to, you from all people should know the anti-Wikipedia slant of that journalist, who has attacked Wikipedia, its aims, its processes, its editors, and its founder, and to bring this to this page is most disingenuous of you. Or is it that you believe that I belong to "the Wikipedia elite", that I belong to the cabal of "uber-admins", and that Wikipedia policy is shaped by individuals? Utter nonsense. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The LA Times and The Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America (Dr. J. Gordon Melton editor) are in conflict. The LA Times says Rawat purchased it, Dr. Melton says "Premies purchased an estate in Malibu into which the couple moved". So who do you believe? WP:VER says "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources" and that is why the LA Times article is, in this case, the less reliable source. If this material is important enough to go in the article, and I don't believe it is, it should be right, BLP Policy is clear - "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space". This used to be one of the most meticulously sourced articles in Wiki. Every important fact was either undisputed or sourced from academic works. Now we have the LA Times, the Fifth Estate and the Rushton Daily Leader. I guess some editors approach is that the proper response to the Register beat up is to become more like The Register and less like an encyclopedia. Looking forward to the ads Momento (talk) 03:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The L.A. Times article doesn't actually indicate who purchased the residence. A better phrasing would be:

In November of 1974 he moved into a secluded home in Malibu, California that was purchased for $400,000.

I'd think that the local paper would be a better source for real estate deals than a book about cults. However I don't see any real dispute between Melton and the L.A. Times on this issue. Just because we use award-winning newspapers for sources doesn't mean the article can't be meticulously sourced. Scholarly books don't necessarily represent all significant viewpoints. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin correctly pointed out on the noticeboard that if two reliable sources contradict each other, and this may not actually be the case here, you can just include information from both with explanations. So, there's evidently no reason to be arguing anymore here over this information from this particular source. I'm sure that solves the issue here, right? I mean, there's no COI issues going on here that would prevent someone from agreeing with this, right Jossi? Cla68 (talk) 07:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right jossi? (I feel ought to show my hand here. I contend that if I want jossi not to answer some question then all I have to do is ask it because he has decided that I am not worth answering. This provides me with some leverage that I hope I can use to help rid wikipedia of the unwanted bias provided here by Mr Rawat's marketing professional, namely jossi. A marketing man's silence speaks loads.) 147.114.226.172 (talk) 11:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

SlimVirgin is correct, IMO. We should include all significant points of view, even if they disagree. Or, as Yogi Berra said, "When you come to a fork in the road, take it." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will Beback, please note that previous version contained and abundance of opposing statements between sources. Then Vassyana criticized the article for lack of balance, because of that. Andries (talk) 09:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Cla68. Please don't "remind" us about ideas we may strongly disagree with. The Register article you refer to used the strong adherence to Wikipedia principles previously on this article as an excuse for a paid journalist to earn himself some money and fame by doing a Wikipedia-bashing article. ALL the allegations he raised have been debunked. All of them. This article is now about 100 times as biased as it was a month ago, and Nik Wright2's contributions are largely to blame for it. Rumiton (talk) 08:59, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is the swing of the pendulum between opposing factions. The more unscrupulous faction in reverting etc. seems to win. Andries (talk) 09:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody's winning here Andries I think. Succeed in producing an unbalanced article certainly has the appearance of failure because this is a public space and people are not so stupid.PatW (talk) 10:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So Ruminto, Jossi has said above he's not interested in answering a straight question. Perhaps you will. You say you disagree with all the criticism aimed at this article. How would you propose to proceed towards fair balance? By having only the team of followers finish the article? (a situation that was approximated as you say a month ago). How fair would that be? Listen, I don't want to see an article full of unsubstantial hearsay etc. any more than you. I really don't! I have school age kids who use WP regularly and they deserve a trustworthy resource. This is about fairness and so, as relatively unbiased people have pointed out, there needs to be some give from followers who seem entrenched in a highly defensive posture, maybe because they are feeling the pressure of existing criticism -whether for right or wrong. I happen to think my report above (that was censored) was actually quite on topic. I reported about how someone who publicly questioned Rawat was quickly censored. Immediately someone called VivK cast this as a typical example of inappropriate violation of Prem Rawat and followers rights by critics. What I object to is that the same predisposition towards censorship (not including critical information or reports that have disrespectful tone etc) is demonstrated here. Where do critics have a right to a voice? Not even here via reputable sources like the LA Times apparently. I think that it would be a disaster if the article was dominated by any opposing factions. That is why I so welcome and will stand aside for non-factional editors here. I strongly feel that your attempts to control and reinterpret information here border heavily on a more sinister attempt to distort truth and throttle freedom of speech. The game Jossi and I are playing is that of 'not editing' to demonstrate some good faith in that direction. I question the sincerity of Jossi in this respect since his comments to Nick above "Guess which will be the first edits to go" etc plainly indicate that he can affect change here quite easily just by backing up edits he approves of (done by Momento etc.) I openly confess that my presence here is more or less to raise objections to this dynamic. Discussing the edits has become an almost futile pursuit because frankly you guys are so intransigent. You are basically saying 'you might as well leave us followers to it because we are the only ones who a) know and follow the WP rules and b) who are capable of fairly representing Prem Rawat. Don't you see how unfair that looks? PatW (talk) 10:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pat, it would be great if you could just write down your thoughts in a sincere and simple way. I always get the impression you are trying to impress someone with the high dudgeon of your writing, and it only makes a thoughtful reply more difficult. I think the thrust of your question is What would I like to see this article look like? First, as a practising premie, I have never been happy with it in any of its forms. It has never reflected the reality of my last 36 years as a student of Maharaji's. It does not describe the dimension of heart feeling that the experience of Knowledge gives to my life, nor the role Maharaji has played in making that a reality. It makes no measure of how many others have had a similar experience. It also has not properly acknowledged the turbulence of the early years, when guru-worship, vegetarianism, renunciation, asceticism and the whole suffocating cloud of Indiana were imported and presented to us by a 12 year-old who could not have been expected to know better, aided by a bunch of adults who could have been so expected. I would like it if this article could look at the extraordinary growth that has taken place, from the first culturally doomed western offshoot of Hinduism into the rich resource for inward encouragement that it now is, and if it could find a way to acknowledge that through these changes Prem Rawat has remained a master to his students, but in the friendliest and most benevolent sense. To Wikipedia, my views are irrelevant, since we do not yet have sources that tell us about these things. Rumiton (talk) 13:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well said; although I find it hard to believe that none of the numerous academic studies available should have found space to represent this point of view, which IMO belongs in this article as much as any criticism. Basically, if I read an article related to a religion or a new religious movement in Wikipedia, I would like to be able to gain a rough understanding of its internal logic, of what moves its members, of why the movement and its founder represent such an inspiration to them, what the founder's teachings consist of, and how this teaching is applied by its adherents. Academic studies usually attempt to address this in a (more or less) neutral manner, newspapers don't.

In my view, the present version by Nik has taken us further away from an NPOV article. The narrative is garbled, repetitive (we now have the foot kissing twice!), confusing, goes off at numerous tangents, all the while missing the heart of the phenomenon in multiple ways. Just looking at the time line from "Interegnum" (sic) onwards, we go from 1975 (before/after) to late 1976 back to 1975 (before/after) to early 1976 to late 1976. Even after triple reading it is difficult for the reader to get any sense of the developments and changes that ocurred. In an age of religious diversity, Wikipedia can do better than that.

Rawat's teachings should be covered in more detail, based on academic sources, with some relevant quotes from him. Criticism, wealth issues, ridiculing statements etc. should in my view be kept out of the main narrative and reviewed under Reception, along with reception of the teaching among his followers. Jayen466 17:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rumiton, it is perfectly valid to indicate that, for some (though no one will say quite how many, which is suspicious), the 'drug' that Mr Rawat's message provides, is jolly nice, as you have found. A more detached viewpoint might be that the incredibly nice Mr Rawat has hit upon a means of supporting himself that relies upon very strict control of information about the ways in which he operates. The Prem Rawat article surely should be about the man himself and how he operates rather than about how his techniques are perceived by acolytes. The Prem Rawat article need merely mention in passing that there are an unspecified (though it would seem, diminishing) number of people who are passionate supporters, willingly giving up material possessions to help him promulgate his message and, by some mysterious and unspecified means, enabling him to keep on practising flying himself about without having to pay personally for the fuel. It should also mention that there are other people who absolutely hate what he is up to, believing that it can destroy families and lives. The issue seems to be that if any validity is provided to the antis, then the pros feel slighted, and their masters feel threatened because it might put people off 'promising to keep in touch', thereby reducing revenues to Prem Rawat's money collecting apparatuses. Is there any reason why genuine seekers after truth shouldn't be given the opportunity to make up their own minds, heeding, if they want, the global warning of the antis and thereby, some might hope, incidentally reducing the global warming caused by the erstwhile guru? There will always be gullible people, but wikipedia is one place where facts can be presented such that the gullible are reasonably protected if they bother to read what's written.147.114.226.172 (talk) 14:20, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just carefully read what you have written and found nothing worth responding to. Rumiton (talk) 14:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pat, you are playing animal balloons with other people's words again. I cast no such thing you attributed to me, merely presented what actually happened at Alexandra Palace to allow any sane observer to note how laughingly corrupt your version of that woman's offensive interruption of that (otherwise extremely inspiring) event was. Try and get it, what part of the word 'offensive' don't you understand? Your response to Rumi above clearly indicates that you believe PR's entire life is dedicated to keeping his income flow happening. That is corrupt thinking in its saddest form, the lack of understanding about money in your own life experience is frightening to the 'detached' observer, seriously scary. Unless that is, you are drunk, or joking about Prem's reasons for travelling more miles in a year than you do in a decade, just to talk to people, most of whom have none of your precious money to give him. However, I agree with our masked highbrow intellect below, I too fail to see how any self respecting academic would bother to analyse the business model espoused by Prem Rawat for packaging his messages ??? I can only wild guess how profound and deep one must be to come up with such a peircing and penetrating point as that. To those with less anger and self importance clogging up their digestive system Prem Rawat's teachings are about as intellectual as a wild stallion galloping across a prairie. The mainstream media can be a source of meaningful information about a galloping horse? How about being there watching the animal, how about being ON it? And you pompously judge others as brainwashed! You who are so terrified of the agents of the evil Dark One. What a childish, pointless conversation you are having with yourself user number 147 .VivK (talk) 14:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone asked why on earth any self-respecting academic would bother to consider and analyse the business model espoused by Prem Rawat for packaging his messages, particularly if the few serious commentators who have looked into the matter have declared that the so-called teaching is devoid of intellectual content anyway. I imagine most academics would have better things to do and would find it hard to obtain funding for such fruitless studies. Therefore the mainstream media are effectively the only source from which to glean any meaningful information that might help inform people people of what Mr Rawat is really about. The way the devotees operate to control information here in this 'free' resource in wikipedia shows just how much they are themselves brainwashed and the presence of their marketing professional, jossi, how vulnerable their business model is to the truth.147.114.226.172 (talk) 11:38, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's not entirely fair. There is a wealth of academic studies: [35] [36]; to say that newspapers are the only source available for use here seems far off the mark. Jayen466 17:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

VivK and Ruminton both talk about the insights and wonderful feelings that come from Rawats teachings. Please remember that I have practised his Knowledge sincerely since age 17 and also spoke in such gushing terms and do not deny any of it. My criticisms are much more down to earth and I think that is also what 147 was driving at. I don't think his reservations or suspicions are about the nature of the experience (visa vi your 'galloping horse' simile). In many ordinary peoples minds there are doubts that have arisen from reading newspaper portrayals of Rawat or negative comments from critics. Should they simply cast these doubts aside or can you help them see why such things are irrelevant or ill-founded? Followers should maybe not expect the uninitiated public to appreciate or necessarily accept the wondrous nature of the experience on your word. Your being cross at people for asking questions that are disrespectful of Rawat (in your view) itself smacks of religious intolerance. There has to be a balance between religion demanding respect from society/Wikipedia, and society/Wikipedia demanding transparency from religion. You want Prem Rawat to be treated with same respect here that you accord him then let the well-documented criticisms be aired here and face them. Provide the answers. Why be afraid? Jayen rightly wants the followers perspective aired here. Yes people want to know what's so great about his teachings. They also want to be aware of the main criticisms of him so as to get a balanced picture. Lets aim for that shall we? PatW (talk) 18:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PatW, you write as if you speak for "the ordinary person" ("In many ordinary peoples minds there are doubts that have arisen from reading newspaper portrayals of Rawat or negative comments from critics.") But there are many "ordinary people" who do not have those doubts. No-one is asking that people cast doubts aside. Clearly, you have not enjoyed Knowledge (so why didn't you stop practising a long time ago?) so there is no problem. Put it aside and move on. But many people enjoy knowledge, and are not "brainwashed". You claim to have practised knowledge, yet you still believe that such practise has something to do with religion. I suggest to you that many people who practise knowledge would laugh at that claim, and would wonder at your claim of "religion". I've practised knowledge since I was 22, and that was a long time ago. I know that knowledge has nothing to do with religion. I'm happy that anyone be made aware of the fact that some people haven't enjoyed knowledge, and have found it unhelpful. But because knowledge was not right for you, doesn't mean that it is not right for others. You want people to disrespect knowledge and Rawat because you do. I want people to respect Rawat if they benefit from his teaching. Armeisen (talk) 00:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Who do you think you are to patronisingly tell me to 'put aside' my criticisms of Prem Rawat, No I won't and neither will many other people. I object to your putting down my experience (even though you have absolutely NO idea about my personal experiences) apparently because you simply cannot entertain that other option which is that there could be just a little substance to people's criticisms. If people who practice knowledge or Rawat himself laugh at the suggestion that their practices are religious fine. Scholars of new religions often actually note how one of the very things that characterise new religions and their leaders is their insistence that they are nothing to do with religion. They suggest that the explanation for this phenomena is that the leaders are keen to disassociate from their roots so as to better establish their own autonomy. To me that is exactly what Rawat has done and is doing. The explanation I was given as a new premie in 1974 was that 'Jesus, Buddha, Krishna,Mohammed did not preach religion' their subsequent followers wrongly later turned it into one. And that Rawat, as a similar 'Master' was not preaching religion but revealing a direct experience. We were told that only a living 'Perfect Master' can show you the living religion and that religion without the living Master was dead. That's what we were told and that's what the followers of Rawat's father were also told and what most followers of most Sant Mat tradition adherents were told. 'Religion thus becomes almost a dirty word. However it was subsequently quite clear to me (and obviously many others) that there were many religious aspects to the whole thing (ie beliefs and adherence to tenets that Jossi denies). Rawat may have gradually got rid of the appearance that there are no beliefs or suggestions made to followers about who he is or what he experience of knowledge is but I don't personally think that amounts to it not being a form of religion ie. a new style religion. One category that Rawat currently does not deny is that he is some kind of 'Master' (having gradually dropped the former 'Perfect Master bit). Also there are promissary commitments made to Rawat regarding the practice of knowledge. What this seems to be all about is the reluctance of Rawat or followers to be categorised. I agree that the best balance would be to accurately report the characterisation of Rawat by scholars and also report Rawats denials.PatW (talk) 10:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References calling DLM or Elan Vital a religious movement are legion. The techniques had their origin in a religious tradition. So the view that Knowledge hasn't got anything to do with religion would seem to be a minority view – fine to mention it in the article – but you cannot reasonably expect EV's description as a religious movement to be banished from the article, much less so the talk page. Jayen466 00:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to add to Jayen's comments, Elan Vital, the organisation that has supported Rawat's work for the past 36 years, is registered as a church in the US. --John Brauns (talk) 01:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whether references calling those organisations a religion are "legion" or not is irrelevant. The chaplain ("Black Will") at the school I attended had this wonderful saying: "Every since the crucifixion of Christ, the majority have been in the wrong." Not necessarily accurate, of course, but of relevance here. I would suggest to you that the religions had their origins in the techniques; that is, the techniques preceded religion. How do you come up with the claim that Knowledge hasn't got anything to do with religion is a "minority view"? Do you know how many people practise knowledge? I'm sure that the majority would support the statement that knowledge has nothing to do with religion. I don't recall asking for anything to be banned. No evidence for that, Jayen. Would be good not to attribute claims to me that I have not made; it only undermines your credibility as an editor. Armeisen (talk) 01:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How do you come up with the claim that Knowledge hasn't got anything to do with religion is a "minority view"? I believe it to be a minority view (at least) in the published sources that we are required to reflect here. Personally, I have no problem understanding that it isn't religious to you, or doesn't feel "religious"; to you it is a practical and empirical part of your life. Jayen466 01:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DLM and Elan Vital have been described as New religious movements. Elan Vital in its FAQ, states that it the practice of Knowledge is compatible with all religions (Maharaji's Knowledge is compatible with and independent of any lifestyle, culture, religion, or belief system). Prem Rawat himself says that the practice of Knowledge is not a religion. These viewpoints are presented already in the respective articles, as well as their legal status. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In the United States, there is a process to register as a religion (which brings substantial benefits on taxes and protection from government interference.) If John Braun's statement is true, that would seem to settle the question. On the other hand, it's pretty clear that we would need a reliable source for what is obviously a controversial point.

Otherwise, accepted reliable sources call EV a "new religious movement" as Jossi says. Denials by Rawat or EV could be added to contrast that (if self-published) but I think it would be wrong to remove such a reliably sourced description. Perhaps it should be tied to the narrative of Westernization. EG " Elan Vital is described by Melton and others as a "new religious movement" (cites), though Prem Rawat has said that the practice of Knowledge is not a religion. (cite)" Fair compromise? Msalt (talk) 04:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'd like to know how Melton defines "a new religious movement". It sounds good to say it, but someone who has access to the books should be able to tell us how Melton describes a religious movement. I believe too that there is quite a distinction between a "religious movement" and a "religion". Again, it will depend on how it is described/defined. So could someone enlighten us? Armeisen (talk) 09:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To my way of thinking, a religion involves a set of tenets to which adherents subscribe; that is, a belief system. However, if religion is seen to be "the quest for the values of the ideal life", or "the manifestation of such feeling in conduct or life", (Macquarie Dictionary), then I guess Maharaji's work is covered in that kind of general description (as distinct from definition). In my experience, Knowledge is compatible with all religions, without being one. In that respect, I am in agreement with you, Jossi. Armeisen (talk) 03:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but as Jossi once told me it is not our way of thinking that count here. I'm glad you seem to agree then that Maharaji's work falls fairly into the dictionary definition of a 'religion' ie. belief, in, recognition of, or an awakened sense if, a higher unseen controlling powers: rites or .worship (NB. annually held Guru Puja (Puja='worship' yes?). The only possible reason you can object to it being described that way is because you don't like being lumped in with other religions I guess. Your argument about being compatible with other religions without being one is interesting. Have you considered the possibility that maybe, (since we've categorically established that it IS a religion by definition) Knowledge is compatible with all religions and is also one itself? Also please note that your worries maybe unsubstantiated since of course all different religions are in fact different but are still called 'religions'. So Rawat's is just a nice 'different' religion. Is that an acceptable situation or does he deserve a dictionary category all of his own because he's so clearly distinct to all English speaking people? Do you think that an encyclopedia should lean towards broad categories that everyone understands or towards cryptic ones thought up by religious groups who want to be in another category? I mean what category do you guys think Prem Rawat would like to be? Does Humanitarian Leader perhaps work for you? How does that sit with all his past teachings and the way he was perceived? PatW (talk) 17:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my response to Msalt above. Armeisen (talk) 09:12, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to be enlightened as to the distinction between a religion and a new religious movement in this context I suggest you read 'Radhasoami Reality' by Mark Jurgensmeyer. A religion has connotations of orthodoxy and general acceptance. A 'new religious movement' is essentially almost always an offshoot of an earlier religion as Rawat absolutely undeniably is. Even Jossi will confirm (as author of PR's earlier website) that Rawat himself endorsed the belief that he was the latest of a series of 'living masters' that descend from very particular and named illustrious Sikh Gurus like Guru Nanak etc. The exact lineage that Prem Rawat claimed (possibly wishfully imho) is well documented and I suggest that it could be very helpful to reference it here. Thoughts Msalt, Francis, Jayen et al? Rawat's own wording on his site was 'This is the history thus far' or words to that effect, and there followed a named list of his predecessors including of course his father, Swarupanand and others.. Jossi would you like to provide the exact lineage he claimed on his site? Why was that list removed? That would maybe answer this question once and for all. If you provide this information you may also need to inform readers that there are a number of other Gurus who contest the authenticity of thse claims. However of course we also have Premie scholar of religion Ron Geaves' published list of Rawat's claimed hagiographic family tree to refer to also if need be. Anyone like to see that?[[[User:PatW|PatW]] (talk) 10:32, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Armeisen, do you accept now that Rawat is a master in a line of gurus that stem from the Sikh tradition? If so can you accept that he has religious roots? Third question, would you agree that Sikhism is generally correctly categorised as a a religion? Forth - do you now understand that Rawat has undeniable religious roots? Fifth - how likely or sensible would it be that someone who's entire teachings stem from a religion has 'nothing to do with religion? Can you answer those questions please?PatW (talk) 10:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pat, in spite of so many polite requests, you are still writing in those same strident, self righteous tones that tell us you believe you are the only honest, wise and clear-thinking editor around here. This style clearly suits the anti-Rawat websites in which it evolved, but it is in no way conducive to arriving at a mature consensus for this article. Rumiton (talk) 10:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I object to the insinuation that my writing style has evolved in anti-Rawat websites. I was a self-righteous honest, wise, clear-thinking writer since childhood.PatW (talk) 11:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So far, Pat W, all you have done is to say that Prem Rawat traced his lineage back to some Sikh person. But there is no notion of religion, in the sense of a set of beliefs or tenets. You stated that you practised knowledge for many years. Did you ever go to a Sikh temple as part of that practise? Were you requested to take on a set of Sikh beliefs? If you were, then you must have received a different knowledge from me. So I don't accept that any of your statements have any veracity. You state that you don't believe he has any links; a bit contradictory. So what are his teachings that you refer to? That God is within each human being? That peace lies within each human being? That having peace is essential to a human being. That human beings love joy, don't enjoy discomfort. I guess if you want to call that religion, then that is fine by me. Armeisen (talk) 11:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can certainly agree with what you say Armeisen. I think the unedifying tussle somewhere above regarding how many of Prem Rawat's names and titles should appear in the lede show how wilfully obtuse single words can be, when applied to this subject. It gets worse with words like religion and religious. I made some enquiries a few months ago and found the following, not official information, but I believe a good description of the situation.

1. Elan Vital is an organisation that facilitates people coming together to celebrate an inner experience. As each country has differing organisational laws, Elan Vital is set up differently in different countries.

2. The Divine Light Mission was registered in 1971 by then student/follower/devotee of Prem Rawat's, Bob Mishler. It later changed its name to Elan Vital. The 501(c)(3) status of Elan Vital in the US is based on its acceptance in the US as a "church", which is defined something like "a coming together of 2 or more people to worship a higher power" (exact wording not found, but can be if needed.)

3. Elan Vital is not a religion.

4. There is no membership in Elan Vital. It is run mainly by a small number of volunteers.

I think this could be fruitfully covered on the Elan Vital page and linked to from this page. Rumiton (talk) 11:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ruminton. In this matter I am self-righteous. Sorry! I also humbly :-) believe that I am honest and reasonably clear-thinking and wise in some respects. I also invite you all to prove me wrong so I question the relative clear-thinking of some people's arguments here including that of Armeisen who, in case you hadn't noticed, has utterly failed to connect the dots as I believe most sensible people will agree. I kind of rest my case. Finally, despite all this bleating about incivility, we've been having this debate for years - it is described above as 'heated' and we're always being rude and then apologising and so on - I'd call that an acceptable equilibrium. So getting back to the article, do you agree that it would may be helpful to inform readers that Prem Rawat claims to be part of the lineage that he does? Or is that now something you also want to hide because you've decided it makes him look too religious?PatW (talk) 11:30, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if my questions have too much of a cross-examining tone everybody. Please understand that I myself will happily reply to all hard questions in full (You know I am naturally pompous and verbose - any excuse to waffle on). I simply do unto others as I would have them do unto me. Also remember I am trying to win arguments here - I want to get to the point and the traditional way to do that is to have a debate that is formed of clear questions and clear replies. Hence the stark questions. Big hugs all round? :-)PatW (talk) 11:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Armeisen writes: But there is no notion of religion, in the sense of a set of beliefs or tenets.

What about the ashram rules? Weren't they tenets?

Did you ever go to a Sikh temple as part of that practise? Were you requested to take on a set of Sikh beliefs? If you were, then you must have received a different knowledge from me.

No, and I make no claims to be a scholar of religion but I am aware now that there a a number of great similarities in lots of respects with Radhasoami and all those traditions that derive from that part of India. I don't want to harp on about Sikhism because although people associate Sikhism with Radhasomai and Advait Mat there are some differences. Here's a list of some similarities between Prem Rawat and Radhasoami/Advait Mat/Sant Mat:

The singing of 'Arti' in front of an altar with guru's picture on

The belief in a line of 'Perfect Masters' or 'Satgurus' who are incarnations of God etc.

The singing of bhajans

Darshan (kissing of the feet etc)

Devotion to the Master

Satsang

Service (Seva)

Meditation (Assayanas) the 4 techniques which are historically the same as his predecessors and other Sant (Light) Gurus.

The DLM motto 'Work is Worship' Same as at Dayalbagh (Sikh city in India founded by Radhasoami guru also reported to have initiated Rawats father)

Here's some quotes from Ron Geaves' 2006 academic paper entitled 'From Totapuri to Maharaji (Prem Rawat)? Reflections on a Lineage (Parampura)'

Maharaji has previously referred to this lineage as his own website as follows:

Shri Totapuri ji Maharaj (1780-1866)

Shri Anandpuri ji Maharaj (1782-1872)

Param Hans Dayal Shri Advaitanand ji (1840-1919)

Shri Swarupanand jo Maharaj (1884-1936)

Yogiraj Param Hans Satgurudev Shri Hans ji Maharaj (1900-1966)

There is no doubt that any scrutiny of the language of Swarupanand Ji, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj and the early discourses of his son Maharaji will demonstrate the usage of the (above) four metaphors (The experience of the divine was veiled in various images of light, sound,nectar and finally the Word or Name of God) and other terminology associated with the language of the mediaeval nirguna sants, particularly Nanak and Kabir.(NB. Nanak and Kabir were both famous Sikh Gurus I think)

The rest of Geaves paper is devoted to how Rawat has made something new and brilliant out of all this. Something that evidently perplexes his contemporary scholars somewhat but which you are all very keen to emphasise. So if Elan Vital is not a religion, would you accept that it is an offshoot of a religion? Personally I think it plausibly deceptive to argue otherwise.PatW (talk) 12:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also notice that Jossi is responsible for the Wiki entry on Advait Mat which he is careful to describe only as 'a cluster of movements in northern India which perceive themselves to be ::originating from Totapuri (d.1866)' How informative is that? Or can I be more blunt and say 'uninformative' for his not even using the obviously appropriate adjective 'religious movement'. It must be very exhausting having to tiptoe around this subject so carefully because of Prem Rawat's organisations sensitivities. I'm sure the followers of Advait Mat around the world would be quite proud to be described as a 'religion' or even 'the offshoot of a religion'. Interestingly of course Prem Rawat himself was not even shy about proclaiming this connection either. Why are you?PatW (talk) 13:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No. A tenet is a principle, dogma or doctrine (OED.) Ashram rules were optional Indian renunciate lifestyle rules, which some accepted as personally useful to them and others did not go anywhere near. Probably more of the latter. Rumiton (talk) 13:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I moved your response. Please don't post stuff in the middle of my text. It's confusing. There was a doctrine or creed and it was sung morning and night in Rawats ashrams as he advocated in the rule book. Also Rawat strongly recommended that people wanted to serve him and who were available should surrender their llves to him in the Ashram. I heard him say that. Maybe you missed that bit. Lucky you. Don't rewrite other people's history though please. It's highly offensive. If this isn't a doctrine I'd like to know what is:

Arti (as sung to Prem Rawat or his picture on an altar whilst waving 'arti tray of burning ghee)

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to You
All bow and pray to You
Scriptures sing Your glory
Heaveny hosts sing Your praises
Your virtues are ever true
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
never bring you knowledge of the soul
will never reveal your soul
without the grace of satguru
without the Knowledge of Satguru
rites and rituals never reach the goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Guru's boat is the holy name
Guru's ship is the holy word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Guru's boat is the holy name
Guru's ship is the holy word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Anger, desire, attachments
Rob us of eternal life
Take away our heavenly life
Satguru gives us true Knowledge
Satguru is eternal Knowledge
The sword that kills our problem life
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Religions harp their own glories
Call to follow their own path
Welcome me to follow their own way
The essence of all was revealed
The seed of all was revealed
I walk on the true way today
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Nectar from Satguru's feet is
Holy and it cleans us of our sins
So sacred in cleaning us of sin
When he speaks, darkness flies away
When he speaks, darkness cannot stay
Doubts removed, new life then begins
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Mine, Thine, Wealth, Health
Give them to the lotus feet of love
Give them to the lotus feet of the Lord
Give yourself to Satguru
Sacrifice yourself to Satguru
Be united with the blissful Truth
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Bible, Gita, the Koran
Sing the glory of Your Name
They all sing the glory of Your Name
Angels sing Your great glory
Heavenly hosts sing Your praises
They find no end to Your fame
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Desires have robbed me and left me
Trapped in the darkness of the night
Yes, they've trapped me in the darkness of the night
Guru gives holy Name and Light
Guru gives Holy Name and Sight
Cross the ocean by His Love and Light
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Many past forms you have taken
Now we have come in your control
Again You have come to save the soul
In this time of darkness
To lead Your devotees from darkness
You have come as Hansa the pure soul
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Come to the shelter of Guru's grace
Come with your heart and your soul
Bring Him your heart and your soul
Cross the worldly ocean
Cross it by your devotion
And attain the supreme goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

PatW (talk) 13:39, 28 February 2008 (UTC) I don't know how much more of this I need to post to jog your memory and to prove a point. But in the Ashram we had to sing this to his picture every morning and night. And at festivals he sat there (wearing the costume of Lord Krishna) while it was sung to him by 1000's. NB. He didn't join as it was plainly addressed to him and he was facing us. Anybody now in ANY doubt WHATSOEVER that this was a religious offshoot with doctrines?? Come on let's have some answers.[reply]

Meditation begins in the form of our master,  Adoration begins at the feet of our lord,  Concentration begins in the words of our master,  Liberation begins in the grace of our lord. You are my mother and you are my father , you are my brother and you are my friend , you are riches, you are wisdom,  You are my all, my lord to me.  You are riches, You are wisdom,  You are my all, my Lord to me. Guru Maharaj Ji, my life is within You , From You I was born and to You now I go,  Forever I'm Yours, my longing is endless,  This heart of mine aches to be one with You,  Forever I'm Yours, my longing is endless,  This heart of mine aches to be one with You. Wherever I look, Your face is before me  Your golden Love melts all my troubles away,  I give You my heart, for in You it will mellow , Maharaj Ji my Lord, my life is Your play , I give You my heart, for in You it will mellow , Maharaj Ji my Lord, my life is Your play Oh wondrous Lord, my Guru Mahraj Ji , Your grace is a river which flows on and on,  You fill my heart with Your Love overflowing,  Let me come home find my rest at Your feet,  You fill my heart with Your Love overflowing,  Let me come home find my rest at Your feet Our Lord is the maker of all things created,  He keeps them and brings them,  all home to his word, Our Lord is the superior power in person,  I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

(at which point everyone would fall flat on their faces - that 'well-know Indian Greeting' right Ruminton?) PatW (talk) 14:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Responsibility

Returning to this page after a 48 hour absence is an excellent reminder of all that is wrong with Wikipedia. The screeching from Jossi would be embarrassing enough if delivered by a spoilt eight year old, from a fifty year old man it is plain worrying, and from one of Wikipedia’s most active administrators it is an outright demonstration that there is one rule for the elect and another for the ‘non belongers’.

This article has been a POV sewer for years, the only thing that will rescue it is the rapid addition of a multiplicity of new references. Cleaning out POV phraseology is the work of moments, it just requires intelligent editing, but getting the references resolved is what is needed and that takes research effort, my edit is a major boost to that end.

It is untrue to say that what I was proposing was undiscussed, and it is absurd to work on the basis that because someone doesn’t respond over the course of a week when intentions have been clearly raised, that the discussion has not included the non respondents. It is even more absurd to propose a process where the existing failed structure of an article has to remain intact while there are endless arguments over every word. The structure of this article is wrong and multiple sections need rewriting as contiguous elements if there is to be any hope that a semblance of chronological integrity is to be achieved.

Momento – who has been throwing his dummy out of the pram ever since the Cade Metz article shone a light on this particular cess pit – suggests I should agree to not edit for a week. I have a different suggestion which is that the editors who oversaw the creation of an article so embarrassing to Wikipedia that it has to be wholly reworked, should be banned from this article and its talk page for one month – Jossi, Momento and Rumiton are entirely responsible and should get out of the way so that others can repair the damage. On that basis I’d be more than happy to agree to take a month’s sabbatical.

Finally for anyone who finds my contribution here distasteful, you may find it instructive to note why I am on Wikipedia at all. It was entirely down to Jossi including a link in the Rawat article to a site which contained defamatory material about me; I spent months of futile effort attempting to get the Wikiocracy to give me, a private citizen, the same protection as the anointed get under BLP – and in the end it was only down to my vocal participation on this talk page that persuaded a disinterested editor to do the decent thing. Having spent months going through the puerile promotional whitewash that passed for a biography of Rawat I was eventually persuaded I could do a better job than what was here for most of the last three years, and I’ve not yet changed my mind. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 15:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to propose such restrictions, use the appropriate methods, go ahead. Whatever your opinion of this article, of me, or Wikipedia, or of its processes, you can simply cannot walk in here and do whatever you want to do. You will have to follow process, you will have to discuss your edits. If people do not respond to your proposals, assume they have no traction. You will not edit-war. You will have to seek consensus. You will have to pursue dispute resolution. I am not going anywhere, Nik. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll support Jossi here. Whilst you, Nik, and your group attempt to deride the good work of Prem Rawat, then there will be others who will challenge you. You claim some kind of grand NPOV status, but that claim is nonsense. As Jossi says, consensus is the way to proceed. I'm not going away either. Armeisen (talk) 22:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article obviously has many biased editors. However if Wikipedia banned all biased editors there's wouldn't be any editors at all. The key is that editors, whatever their biases, must edit in a neutral manner. One technique for ensuring that you are editing neutrally is to 'write for the "enemy"'. In other words, edit as if you were someone with an opposite viewpoint. Editors who can't leave their biases at the doorstep should not be encyclopedia editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:53, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will, I think your observation above is important, and I hope it doesn't get lost in the general shrillness created by too many people trying to "win". If an article does not emerge that accommodates all sides and provides a mature overview we will be here forever. I am not going away either, but I planned my retirement differently. Rumiton (talk) 05:22, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1RR probation

In order to promote more careful and considerate editing of this article, I've posted a proposal, suggested by Jossi, to change the limit on reverts to this article from three per day to one per week for one month. WP:AN#Prem Rawat 1RR parole proposal. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be worthwhile to consider something like this, but only when the Nik version is reverted in its entirety. A compromise of three per week might be better. Armeisen (talk) 10:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If, after seeking consenus, we revert to a differnt version then that's good and ordinary. It'll be up to a consensus of editors. Single edits like Nik's probably wouldn't qualify. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Ameisen is saying that no progress can be made, like the 1RR idea, until Nik's version is reverted.Momento (talk) 12:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With which I vehemently agree. Rumiton (talk) 13:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two long time editor/administrators of high standing, who have different viewpoints on this page, have suggested 1RR probation for the good of the article. I find it very disturbing that Armeisen, Momento, and Rumiton -- all acknowledged followers of Rawat -- seem to be making their agreement conditional on getting their way over reverting Nik's edit, rather than seeking consensus.

I say that as someone also upset with Nik's edit; I expect it to be either reverted or substantially altered (by consensus) fairly quickly. This isn't about the merits of the edit; it's about "my way or we keep edit-warring", which is kind of the gist of the problem here. Can you three reconsider your statements and think about agreeing to join consensus, whereever it leads us? Msalt (talk) 20:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regrettably, an 1RR regimen will never work and it would ensure that NikWright2's version will remain. Because after I revert back to the version before NikWright2's, an anti-Rawat editor will revert it back. Editors Wowest, John Brauns, Andries, NikWright2 and SylvieCyn are regular posters on the anti-Rawat forum. And add the anon posters and I calculate the odds of NikWright2's version being reverted at about 3 to 1 against. And let's no forget the anti-Momento editors. I think before we hang our hopes on consensus, we should try following Wiki policy. If we did that NikWright2's edit would be reverted and edits would not be decided by a vote but by the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia.Momento (talk) 05:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be clear then -- you are rejecting a search for consensus and the Jossi/Will BeBack 1RR proposal for this page, in favor of what you consider to be clear Wikipedia policy. Right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 06:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I'm not rejecting the search for consensus but this 1RR proposal is the opposite of consensus. Consensus means everyone has a share in the outcome but the 1RR system is about majority rule. According to you there are three pro-Rawat editors ( Armeisen, Momento, and Rumiton). And since John Brauns, Andries, NikWright2 and SylvieCyn all post on the anti-Rawat forum, let's count them as anti-Rawat. So that means that an anti-Rawat group has 4 votes and a pro group has 3 votes. How can you achieve a general agreement when a losing vote is 42%? We're miles better off enforcing Wikipedia rules.Momento (talk) 13:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop referring to myself and others as "the anti-Rawat group" Momento. It's not helpful We are not a group working together operating with an agenda as you imply and as Jossi has stated in the past. The extent of ex-premies being a "group" is that people discuss their involvement with Prem Rawat on a discussion forum and there's nothing nefarious about it. Not that it's anyone's business.

Additionally, please note that none of the editors you named above who post on the Prem Rawat Talk Forum has ever tried to conceal it. Quite the contrary. It's a public forum, completely transparent, and all the people you named above do post there using their real names, myself included. Being critical of Prem Rawat doesn't render someone as unable to think rationally and logically about issues presented here. In fact the only reason I've made posts here recently has only been to attempt to clear up incorrect information that some people have been trying to peddle here as fact. That's it. I'd also like to mention that Andries has not been a regular poster on the Prem Rawat Talk Forum for a very long time. I even checked the stat page there to be sure, and Andries has only made seven brief posts on that forum in seven months. I'd hardly call that being a "regular, not that that is anyone's business. Thanks! Sylviecyn (talk) 16:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Momento understands the proposal. All Wikipedia rules would still be in force. The only change is that just one revert per day would be allowed instead of three. It doesn't change the mix of editors and viewpoints, and I don't see how it would do anything beyond slowing the revert wars that have plagued this article. 18:48, 1 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Will Beback (talk • contribs)

Momento, I don't think you understand the nature of consensus. It has nothing to do with voting between factions, nor does it require that every single person agree. It starts with finding common ground in facts and policies, and builds from there. WP:Consensus is well worth reading. One key part says

"When there are disagreements, they are resolved through polite reasoning, cooperation, and if necessary, negotiation on talk pages, in an attempt to develop and maintain a neutral point of view which consensus can agree upon." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 20:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly, the normal WP rules are not in place. Under normal circumstances NikWright2's undiscussed insertion of 10,000 bytes of badly written OR would be speedily reverted and he would be cautioned. Look at the effort you have made to discipline me for taking out a sentence. And what about the BLP policy that says - "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy." Momento (talk) 22:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you think that rules have been broken then I suggest you seek remedial action at WP:AN or through dispute resolution. However NikWright2 claims that his changes were thoroughly discussed, and they were reverted, so both of your concerns seem to have been addressed. I also note that Jossi encourages users to "BRD", which is just what Nik did. Regarding you own deletions of sourced material, the material was not in violation of BLP and your actions were against consensus. I've repeatedly asked you if you'd revert again if the information is restored. You've also revert warred over an "NPOV" tag. You can still revert war if you choose, but you'll be limited to one a day instead of three. Why is that a problem? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:BRD means be bold, wait for a revert and then don't revert, but discuss. Nick did not follow BRD, Will. He was bold, he was reverted, and he reverted back to his version without discussion. That is 'edit warring, upon which the page was protected. Check the page history. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If some folks weren't so quick to revert then this page wouldn't be protected now. Is Momento the only involved editor who'd opposing the 1RR proposal? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What Nik did was not WP:BRD, but WP:BRRR :). Both Francis and Momento and opposing the 1RR probation, but may not be relevant as it is uninvolved editors that will decide. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

+1. BRRR indeed. Jayen466 02:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Between the 8th of February (when Nik Wright2 made first comment on this page this year) and the 26th of February (when Nik Wright2 inserted 10,000 bytes of material) there have been over 1500 comments made by more than a dozen editors on this page of which Nik Wright2 has made 16. Four appeared in the "Peace is Possible" section, four appeared the "did donations made Rawat rich" section, 3 appeared in the "Downton" section and one each in the "Balyogeshwar", "Organization", "Headings", "References" and "External Links" sections. So Will Beback, could you point out to us all where the insertion of 10,000 bytes of material was " thoroughly discussed"?Momento (talk) 23:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources - L.A. Times and N.Y. Times

The clear consensus at WP:RS/N#Los Angeles Times as reference for Prem Rawat is that the L.A. Times and the N.Y. Times are definitively reliable and relevant sources regardless of context. In the 1970s and 1980s the subject received considerable attention from the mainstream media. These sources along with others are important representatives of contemporary jounalistic coverage of a prominent public person. WP:NPOV calls on us to include all significant viewpoints so we must include theirs. To that end, I've searched archives and found some 76 articles from the L.A. Times and 22 in the N.Y. Times that are relevant to this subject's biography. I'd be happy to send copies of these articles to other editors who request them by email, in accord with fair use exemptions of the copyright laws and good scholarly practice. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly you're not going to insert a sentence from each one, so how about giving us a synopsis of a theme or a year.Momento (talk) 10:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These are reliable sources with notable points of view. We'll include them as need be. I've often said that the role of Wikipedia editors is to verifiably summarize reliable sources using the neutral point of view. I hope that's what we're all aiming for. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, though with some caveats. The reliability of newspapers is not high in this area. (I could cite academic sources that say so, quite explicitly.) Much is misreported, misrepresented, or portrayed in a manner likely to elicit maximum reader interest. An example from my recent experience in German Wikipedia: numerous German top-quality, national newspapers state, time and again, that Scientology does not have the status of a religious or ideological community in Germany, but is a purely commercial enterprise. (This is indeed the opinion of the German government.) However, the German courts have many times held otherwise, with most decisions either explicitly leaving the question open, or taking a clear stance in favour of according Scientology such status.

A briefing for German members of parliament, available online on the German parliament website and compiled by the parliament's Scientific Services division, reviews the situation in detail, lists court decisions going this way and that, and describes the situation as "contested" and "unresolved". Whereas newspapers often present the situation as a clear-cut case, citing one particular decision that went the other way.

Now, people deriving their knowledge from newspapers alone turn up on the German Scientology talk page at regular intervals. They demand that it be made clearer in the article that Scientology is a purely commercial organisation that has been denied recognition as a religious movement and that the article is not a fair representation of POVs. What to do? I would argue that in such a situation an encyclopedia has to give preference to the more reliable source. It is not just a question of verifiably summarising what various reputable sources have, on average, said. And if readers experience cognitive dissonance because the article does not reflect what they have read in the papers, then IMO that is a good thing, and not an NPOV failing. Jayen466 18:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How delightfully well put. I seem to agree entirely.PatW (talk) 19:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And I entirely agree with PatW.Momento (talk) 21:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And I also. Rumiton (talk) 15:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not a clear consensus, Will Be Back. A consensus is when everyone agrees. The context is important. Just because the newspaper has won Pulitzer Prizes (generally they are given to journalists, not newspapers) doesn't mean that everything they report is of substance. Take Rawat's house, for instance. A search should show what was paid for it. Another search should show that it was the registered address of DLM, if indeed it was. If the journalist used some other source, then that needs to be stated.

Then there is the question of relevance. Of what relevance is the price of a house or a piece of land? None. If the article is about Prem Rawat, then it should be about him, if he is notable enough to have an entry in Wikipedia. It's what he is doing that is important. Armeisen (talk) 10:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sharing your opinion. There are many valid viewpoints. The fact is that this property has been the subject of numerous contemporary news reports. These concern three broad topics: the price and general opulence of the property; the presence of Prem Rawat and his following in the Malibu community; and the helicopter permit. I think that the topic of the subject's tenure in Malibu can be developed in a responsible manner. It's just one aspect of many covered by local and national newspapers. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is interesting .If I am correct here you are saying that information about Prem Rawat's family home is one of three broad topics you would like to include in the article. Is there no mention of his work in the LA Times ? Balius (talk) 11:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's not what I meant. I wrote that those are three topic concerning the Prem Rawat living in Malibu that have been covered by the L.A. Times. My point is that there are many dimensions to his residence there. As for the overall coverage of the subject in that newspaper, there are other topics as well. If you like I'd be happy to send you the complete file. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, what exactly is the relevance of where Rawat lives? Why isn't the house he lived in as a child included. And the one he stayed in when he first visited England. I know the anti-Rawat crew believe that a guru should live in a cave but isn't living in a house so normal as to be unimportant?Momento (talk) 11:31, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Asceticism (or at least material modesty) is a honored ideal for a Hindu or Sant Mat guru. The fact that he completetly diverged from this ideal is very relevant for his notability. Andries (talk) 11:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then perhaps we should point out that Prem Rawat has never practised or advocated renunciation, and that in this respect he diverges from traditional Hinduism? Rumiton (talk) 11:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The L.A. Times covers more that his residence, but his residence has been the topic of considerable coverage. If it's relevant to mention that he has a pilot's license then it's relevant to say he has a heliport in his front yard. If he's promoted asceticism among his followers then it's relevant to note his own living circumstances. If he's using the property as a headquarters for his organization then that's relevant too. If there's a reliable source that has written extensively about the subject childhood home paper then we should consider summarizing that material. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How can you say that Ruminton? That is just a straight out plain as a pikestaff lie! You know as well as I that Rawat advocated renunciation to the hilt. What do you think his ashrams were? And I get reprimanded for calling this stuff lies?! Are you just trying to bait people here like me who gave their lives in ashrams? That is not at all funny.PatW (talk) 13:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In 1978 Rawat joked to the 100(0)'s of ashram premies in Kissimmee Florida saying that "the only tie you have with your parents is the one they gave you for Christmas" - doesn't that imply he expect some renunciation? Like : No sex- Being a vegetatrian - no careers -no seeing your parents -and you are SO wrong to weasely insinuate that everyone did this because they wanted to. SO damn wrong. Rawat yelled and yelled at us about obedience and that was a major factor for many young earnest people blinded by their sincerity and devotion. Obedience meant obeying rules whether you liked them or not. Sure we just thought it would be best to do as he said. But I for one bitterly resent the things I was told I should give up - like that girl at Alexander Palace who wanted to know why Rawat had allowed his Instructors to go around passing on his authoritarian dictates (she was told to give up her place at Oxford) and was reprimanded by HIM for wanting a 'pissing contest' ! PatW (talk) 13:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely correct, Pat. At the end of 1976, with his birthday celebration in Atlantic City, NJ, Rawat dressed up in his Krishna costume which signaled to his followers a resurgence of acknowledging his divinity as Lord of the Universe, Perfect Master. I went to that Atlantic City program. Rawat's strong demands for surrender and devotion to him were taught (often yelled and screamed) by himself in large events and also repeated by his own agents, Initiators/Instructors/Mahatmas all over the United States, UK, and Europe. This period ushered in an era of renewed commitment and devotion to Rawat by his devotees and many people entered and reentered the ashram as a result. Obedience to Maharaji was in the form of following his agya or his commands to premies. But, we don't have to argue about the blatant whitewashing going on in this talk page about this issue, all one has to do is point to Prem Rawat's own words, because Rawat said himself that he wrote the ashram manual. He wasn’t shy about saying that, either.

The ashrams in the United States were more organized during the time period 1976 through 1982, than ever before in the history of DLM/EV. Ashram residents lived in what were considered "Divine Light Mission" ashrams, a life of renunciation that included poverty, chastity, and obedience. What's more, this issue has been argued on these talk pages many times before and now the subject is being trotted out not by using subtle whitewashing, but baldfaced lies. This revision of the history of Rawat’s life can be maddening because I know exactly what was going on during the late seventies and early 80s in this NRM. I worked closely with Prem Rawat in 1979 and 1980 as one of his secretaries in the Design Department where a Boeing 707 was being reconfigured inside and out to becomehis his first executive jet. The project was called DECA (Design and Engineering Corporation of America) in Miami Beach, and the vast majority of the hundreds of unpaid workers there were ashram residents who were transferred from their communities to Florida. I spoke to Rawat and saw him several times per day at DECA. One of the reasons that his wealth is such an issue is that that jet, which he had total control over, from design to use, was fitted with top of the line everything, from ebony laminated woodworking, custom designed seating, and a gold-plated toilet. I was there for the design of the toilet, saw it being manufactured and saw it after it was installed on the B707. After that I worked part-time at DLM headquarters, then located on Alton Rd., Miami Beach briefly in 1980, which had moved from Denver, CO to Miami Beach because Rawat moved his base of operations there during the jet project. Rawat lived in Miami Beach during that time, had all of his luxury autos shipped to the DECA complex and even his favorite premie band had a recording studio on the DECA premises. He also held his Initiator Development Programs on the premises in the satsang hall on site.

Btw, each and every person seeking to "receive Knowledge, known as “aspirants” were stringently vetted by Initiators/Instructors/Mahatmas prior to being selected to receive the techniques, from at elast 1975 through the mid-80s. This requirement applied to all aspirants, not just those who wanted to move into a DLM ashram. In the Knowledge session, this vow was required to be taken by everyone before being shown the meditation techniques. One simply didn't get to into a Knowledge Session to receive Knowledge without the understanding of who Guru Maharaj Ji is, i.e., the Perfect Master, the Lord, etc.

Knowledge Vow

Oh my Guru Maharaji, I dedicate myself to your lotus feet.

I am weak and ignorant and am filled with the impurities of this world.

Oh Guru Maharaji, please take my mind and purge me of the impurities I possess.

Reveal to me the Knowledge of all knowledge.

Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the kingdom of heaven within inside of me.

Bring me from hate to love, from darkness to light, death to immortality.

I will obey you implicitly and will never reveal this knowledge to anyone for any reason.

I will keep in contact with you through my devotional love, satsang,meditation and service.

Thank you my Lord for everything.

Sylviecyn (talk) 19:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I sat in on many Knowledge giving sessions where this vow was required from aspirants in the late 70's. For those who want to play down the sterner side of Rawat's demands please note the promise to "obey you implicitly" was required. Hardly an encouragement to take it or leave it!PatW (talk) 22:26, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I feel I am being shrieked at again. I think the only way I can approach a dialogue with you is to apply the "PatW factor." This will be a multiplier of about 0.2. Whatever you say I shall assume you meant only one fifth of it. Your "plain as a pikestaff lie" defeats my new system somewhat, as I don't know what a "plain as a pikestaff lie" is, but I shall translate it as "exaggeration." I was in the ashram for about 4 years, and generally it was a positive experience. Certainly no one "yelled at me" wooops, new system, "spoke persuadingly" to me to go there. I wanted to, it felt like the right thing to do. I never made a lifetime commitment, nor was asked to, nor would I have if I had been asked. Most of the people I knew were not in it, and would not have wanted to be. I don't believe they felt discriminated against. If there are sources who claim Prem Rawat applied pressure to some people to live that way, then the article can certainly refer to them. I was not at the Alexander Palace and neither were you. We have 2 witnesses who describe what happened very differently. I will keep an open mind about it. Rumiton (talk) 14:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is already covered with Rawat "left his more ascetic life behind and does not personally eschew material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle".Momento (talk) 11:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[E/C] Local and national newspapers have covered many aspects of the subject. His residence has been a recurring issue. Many other topics are as well. Let's just summarize what's in the sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Over reliance on newspaper sources is not a good thing, in particular were there are abundant scholarly sources on the subject. If there is a specific aspect that was covered in a newspaper and not covered in scholarly sources, we need to ask ourselves why, and make an assessment in a per case basis about the suitability for inclusion of that material. If there is agreement about adding a source, it needs to be done within the context of the rest of the article's text, and with respect to undue weight. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Over-reliance on any source or type of source, including scholarly articles, is not a good thing. Wikipedia policy clearly supports representing a broad variety of different viewpoints and reliable sources. Academic articles are not simply superior versions of newspaper and magazine articles; they have different focuses (foci?) and methods and cover different subjects. And scholarly articles have one major disadvantage -- they are far less accessible to Wiki editors and the general public who might want to verify the sources of a Wikipedia article, or simply look them up for more information. Msalt (talk) 21:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Msalt, without wishing to open a can of worms as to whether this site is a reliable site, whether it can be used as a convenience link or not etc., there seems to be a collection of related academic studies available here. Jayen466 12:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Jossi. I'm becoming concerned that the push for using newspapers as sources is going to end in a "dumbing down" of the article. The house issue highlights this approach. Dr Melton, a religious scholar, says Rawat moved into a house in Malibu in 1974. The LA Times adds the cost and describes it as a "mansion" and a "palatial walled estate". Melton's approach of supply the facts is suitable for an encyclopedia, the LA Times adds some gossip that is suitable for a tabloid. This article used to rely on peer reviewed articles from religious scholars and sociologists to describe Rawat's life and work and still reached 60,000 bytes. Are we going to simply add more material from newspapers until we get to 100,000 bytes? Or, worse still, are peer reviewed articles from religious scholars and sociologists going to be removed to make way for material from newspapers?Momento (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, Momento. There is no such a thing as a blanket agreement of types of sources, be these scholarly or from newspapers. When new sources are forthcoming editors will assess each one in the context of what is going to be used for, and work towards forming consensus in that regard. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus at WP:RSN appears to be that these two newspapers are reliable unless a specific case can be made for their unreliability. There's no need to assess them every time we use them unless we have some special information that calls their reliability into question. We had a situation above where I asked if the L.A. Times was reliable in a specific context and was unable to get an answer one way or the other. Rather than spending time arguing over the obvious let's just acknowlege that these are reliable sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My point was more - why use the LA Times to say Rawat moved to Malibu in 1974 when Melton says it in a neutral, non-tabloid way. Same with Randi, why use a source that describes someone as "an overweight teenage guru"? If someone referred to Aretha Franklin as a "fat old singer" decent people would be outraged. Momento (talk) 20:56, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked for an opinion on the use of the L.A. Times and the N.Y. Times on WP:RSN and the overwhelming view there is that those are reliable sources, regardless of context, with a few exceptions (op-eds, etc). The L.A. Times appears to be reporting on an announcement by Prem Rawat. There's no legitimate reason to doubt the veracity of the reporting. Encyclopedias are tertiary sources, and their use is deprecated. I'm sure that for theological issues covered by scholarly source are better, when available. I don't think we should remove sources, but rather add more. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The LA Times appears to be reporting on an announcement by Prem Rawat"? It doesn't say that at all, it quotes "Los Angeles information director John Berzner". As for adding more sources, we've been down that route before with predictable results. This article was once 100,000 bytes long. Momento (talk) 22:55, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article starts, "The 16-year old Guru Maharaj Ji...has moved his home to the Malibu foothills, it was announced Tuesday." Who do you suppose made the announcement? Mother Theresa? It appears to me to to have been made by Prem Rawat's spokespersons. Regardless of who made the announcement, the report on it is published in a reliable source. I'm sure we'll be able to keep this article a reasonable length while still including all significant points of view. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it looks like it was made by a spokesperson. As we have additional information from a scholar about that house, we ought to use it and assess if there is additional info provided by the LAT that is suitable/encyclopedic. If the latter, and if there are competing viewpoints (scholar vs newspaper) we ought to note that. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's our definition of "encyclopedic"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A source that is peer reviewed and written by an expert in the field would be a good start. Not written by someone who uses phrases like "juvenile judge".Momento (talk) 01:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, you may not have much experience with other articles on Wikipedia, but I can assure you that the vast majority of the contents of this encyclopedia are not referenced from peer reviewed works written by experts in their field. I have no idea what the "juvenile judge" reference concerns. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will, you may not have much experience with BLP policy but it says - "Be very firm about the use of high quality reference". And WP:VER says "Academic and peer-reviewed publications are highly valued and usually the most reliable sources in areas where they are available".Momento (talk) 01:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, your refusal to consider the two leading newspapers in the U.S. to be reliable sources is unhelpful. Deleting material sourced from the L.A Times calling it "extremely poorly sourced" gives appearance of acting without regard to normal standards in order to push a POV. No one responding at WP:RSN thinks that it is an in adequate source, and no one here agrees with you. You are acting against consensus and that is disruptive. Please get with the program and stop deleting properly sourced information. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have never said they weren't reliable sources, Will Beback. I have said that in the case of Rawat moving to Malibu, Melton is a more reliable source and the LA Times material was "gossip". As for removing properly sourced material, being properly sourced doesn't automatically include access to the article, it must also be relevant, unbiased, not contain weasel phrases, not be undue weight, imply guilt be association etc. Can I put this in as context for the $400,000 house gossip, it is properly sourced to James V. Downton, Professor Emeritus of Sociology at the College of Arts and Sciences of the University of Colorado at Boulder - "Many of the luxuries surrounding America's new gurus are gifts from their followers. Guru Maharaj Ji is not alone among the new gurus who are surrounded by material comforts. A casual glance at the lifestyles of other gurus in America does not turn up any signs of poverty. This raises an obvious question: Why is it gurus insist on their followers becoming detached from the material world, while they seem to be completely immersed in it? Detachment means losing dependence to students of eastern thought. A guru may be surrounded with material luxuries, they believe, and not depend on them in the least for his peace and happiness. Trungpa, Rinpoche, a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, has expressed this idea: "Then, of course, the next step is giving away one's possessions. But this is not necessarily connected to austerity. It does not mean that you should not own anything at all or that you should give away what you have immediately. You could have a great wealth and many possessions and you could even enjoy them and like having them and probably you have a personal interest in them-like a child's toy, or adult's toy for that matter. It isn't a question of not seeing the value of possessions, the point is that it should be equally easy to give them away." The western mind tends to see this as a rationalization of self-indulgent behavior. Yet, while many people feel gurus have accumulated more than their share of wealth, their followers believe they are getting no more than what they deserve. From the premie point of view, for instance, Guru Maharaj Ji's opulent lifestyle seems in harmony with their view of him as the Lord. They want him to live like the king that they feel he is. Idealizing him as they do, they are more than happy to supply him with luxuries. From this perspective, Guru Maharaj Ji's opulence can be understood as a natural outgrowth of his followers' need to idealize him and to set him at a sufficiently great distance so that beliefs in his extraordinary powers are preserved. In short, premies have a stake in maintaining his luxurious way of living. The fact is that followers, not leaders, are the chief obstacles to equality, for followers need to elevate the leader so they have an ideal to strive toward. This point of view may seem strange, yet, if we look at other spiritual movements across the country, we find other followers elevating their gurus to a high spiritual status and surrounding them with material goods. While we can partially explain Guru Maharaj Ji's lifestyle in terms of collective dynamics, another point of view would question why he has accepted the luxuries premies have gladly given him. Several explanations could be offered: that he is following tradition; that he recognizes his followers' need to elevate him to a point where he becomes the ideal to emulate; that he sees no conflict between his lifestyle and his spiritual mission; and that he is not attached to the comforts surrounding him. Of course, there is also the possibility that he is ambitious and materialistic, as so many people believe. It is difficult to understand the motives behind Guru Maharaj Ji's lifestyle, just as it is impossible to know whether he is, as premies believe, an authentic saint. I have thought about this issue a great deal and have come to the conclusion that there is no way of knowing, by objective measures, whether the guru is authentic or not. That can only be determined subjectively, for, as one premie told me, "You can only see Guru Maharaj Ji with your heart." Instead of considering the guru's motives and authenticity, perhaps it would be more constructive to ask whether his followers have benefited from their relationship to him and what impact his efforts are having on our society"^[12]Momento (talk) 21:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, you repeatedly said that the material was poorly sourced: "...it is poorly sourced contentious material."[37] and "Extremely poorly sourced compared to an article by a sociologist or religious scholar."[38] However if you've now come to realize that the L.A. Times is a relaible source, and you won't remove material referencing it on account of it being "poorly sourced" then this problem is resolved.

Regarding the "opulence" factor, you seem to be saying that it is appropriate and normal for followers to maintain their guru in a lavish lifestyle. If it is normal and appropriate then why are you censoring any reference to the details of that lifestyle. If it's a good thing for followers to provide luxury then they should be proud of the guru's home, jet, cars, and other amenities. Osho's followers were proud to have provided their teacher with dozens of Rolls Royces. There's no need to hide this important aspect of the guru-follower relationship. And it certainly isn't "gossip" to report an announcement from the subject's spokespersons. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above and in the link you provided, I removed it because "it has no relevance, it is undue weight, it is poorly sourced contentious material". Did the guru's spokespersons say the house was worth $400,000? I don't think so. In fact, none of the spokespersons even said Rawat bought it. And yes, it is so appropriate, normal and traditional for followers to maintain their guru and with over a million followers, many in the west, it should come as no surprise that Rawat would live a life of luxury and good luck to him. But this was already covered in this article that at the age of 16 Rawat was already "financially independent as a result of contributions from his Western devotees". To then additionally insert that he lived in an expensive house and to describe that expensive house as "a walled estate" and "palatial" is irrelevant and undue weight and gossip. But you're missing the point. Do you think it's necessary, relevant or encyclopedic to add "1974 he bought a $400,000" into an article about a successful racing car driver, brain surgeon or playwrite.Momento (talk) 23:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you saying that the L.A. Times is not a reliable source for local real estate transactions? If so you're alone in that belief. Property transactions are recorded in public records. There's no reason whatsoever to assert that this material is "poorly sourced". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not and have never said that the LA Times is not a reliable source, I've always known that. What I said was, the material was "poorly sourced" or sourced "in a way or at a level that is considered inadequate". That is, given that the house purchase was already covered by Melton, you chose "poorly" to include the less reliable contentious and gossipy LA Times version of events. Did the guru's spokespersons say the house was worth $400,000? I don't think so. In fact, none of the spokespersons even said Rawat bought it. Melton says it was bought by followers. In addition, as stated above and in the link you provided, I also removed it because "it has no relevance, it is undue weight".Momento (talk) 23:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand your logic. You admit that the L.A. Times is a reliable source. The assertions in the material I posted are all taken directly from that newspaper with no interpretation or synthesis. The assertsions are not disputed by any other sources. How can the material have been "poorly sourced" if the source is reliable? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the sources disagree inasmuch as the LA Times says, in the headline (and only in the headline), the sixteen-year-old Rawat bought the house himself, while Melton says it was his followers. While I can't speak to what the actual facts in the case are, I submit that this is precisely the sort of thing that newspapers sometimes muddle. If I have followed things correctly, the title of the article is "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", while the actual body of the article says "The 16-year-old Guru Maharaj Ji ... has moved his home to the Malibu foothills, it was announced Tuesday. Land and buildings purchased there ..." The latter sounds compatible with Melton's version. It sounds like the land and buildings were purchased by people not explicitly mentioned. So to me, a plausible explanation is that the editor looked for a short, snappy headline -- "Maharaj Ji buys" would, for a newspaper, be an acceptable shorthand for "Maharaj Ji's Divine Light Mission buys" or "Maharaj Ji's followers buy him", which, while more precise, would not have fitted the same space in the same font size. And in this way the nicer details of the matter sometimes get lost in headlinese. A scholar has no need to make short headlines that grab the eye's attention. My instinct is to go with Melton here. Of course, a third source would be welcome. Jayen466 01:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is also a significant difference between buying a $400,000 home for a single person, and buying a $400,000 headquarters for what at the time was presumably quite a large organisation, with accommodation for Rawat included in this. Again, this is a nice detail that the LA Times saw no need to reflect in its headline; as an attention grabber, it works better if the first impression is that this outrageously expensive property serves merely as a personal residence. The body of the article corrects the matter, but by that time, the emotional impact on the reader -- with potential shades of envy, indignation, etc. -- has already been actualised. It's newspaper psychology. Again, this is something that scholars eschew in their work, and that an encyclopedia can likewise well do without. Melton's is a sober account; this, on the other hand, uses some of the same newspaper psychology. Can you see what I mean, Will? -- Jayen466 01:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC

I certainly agree that healines are the least reliable part of a newspaper article. If I understand correctly, they've often been written by someone other than the journalist. Regaridng he ownership, see below for other LAT reports. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:37, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Third source (weak) as to who bought the house: "By 1974, Prem Rawat was living in a luxury property, at Malibu Beach, California, this mansion was apparently in the ownership of DLM Inc. although following the financial restructuring of 1975/6 it came to be owned by SEVA Corporation of America." [39] Fourth source, also weak (this is the one Momento refers to, I believe): "In 1974, the Divine Light Mission purchased the four-acre $500,000 Anacapa View estate as the residence for its youthful leader, Guru Maharaj Ji, his wife and their two small children." (Note that he did not have two children in 1974, at age 16; another example of newspaper inaccuracy). [40] -- Jayen466 02:38, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The LA Times may generally be a reliable source but that doesn't mean everything in the LAT is true. The 1974 LAT article says Rawat bought the house for $400,000. A 1979 LAT article says the DLM bought the house for $500,000. Obviously one is untrue and possibly both. You say "The assertions in the material I posted are all taken directly from that newspaper with no interpretation or synthesis"is not true. I can write this from the same article - "Guru Maharaj Ji moved into a secluded house in Malibu with his new bride following security concerns. The guru who has made a considerable impact among American youth since first visiting LA in 1971 claims 50,000 followers in the US and 3,000 in LA County alone. Some people have criticized Maharaj Ji for luxurious living but Berzner says that Maharaj Ji has left behind the traditional image of spiritual sages to be more relevant to a technological age and his spiritual insights should not be disregarded because of his lifestyle". Two completely different synthesis' or interpretations of the same source. And both would fall foul of WP:BLP because they are a "conjectural interpretations of a source". BLP policy says - "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source".Momento (talk) 02:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On Apr 10, 1976 the L.A. Times reported on the financial situation of the subject and the DLM. At that time someone named Joe Anctil said that the house belonged to the mission and was worth $554,000. He also said the Denver house was worth $86,000, and that Prem Rawat personally owned a Rolls Royce, a two Mercedes Benz, and some motorcycles, while the mission owned a $22,800 Jensen. The annual income of the DLM was said to be #3.78 million and there are further details about how that was raised and spent. Also of interest is the statement that the DLM does not consider itself a religion except for tax purposes. On Mar 25, 1982 the Times has Linda Gross saying that the house belongs to Seva Coprt. of Nevada, doing business as Anacapa View Estates. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Joe Anctil used to be the public relations person for Divine Light Mission, so if he's quoted in any articles, Anctil was speaking to the press in an official capacity as DLM's spokesperson, although to tell you the truth I don't remember his exact title at the moment. Anctil was the "go to" person at DLM for the press. Hope this helps. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:03, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, for clarification, during the time period 70s through 1983 when DLM became Elan Vital, DLM in the U.S. was considered Divine Light Mission International, often called "IHQ," or "International Headquarters." This applied to the Denver, CO, location/offices, then later the Miami Beach location/offices when it was moved to Florida. IHQ was considered the flagship for all other DLM organizations worldwide, although I don't know anything about Elan Vital's structure in that regard after the name change. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All of which contradicts the LA Times article.Momento (talk) 05:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's no contradiction. The difference between ownership being held by Rawat or by some organization under his control isn't significant. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You really are grasping at straws. Wikipedia doesn't care what you think, if sources contradict each other it is unacceptable for you to chose which ever source suits you.Momento (talk) 06:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not picking the sources that suit me, I'm picking the reliable sources we have that cover this issue. As it happens, there's not significant dispute here between sources. Both the L.A. Times and Melton have reported that the house was bought by DLM. If they disagreed then the right solution would be to report the disagreement. As for the matter of the purchase price, we can give the later figure or both. Here's the text I propose: Moved down to new section

I think every assertion in it is reliably sourced and relevant. How can we improve it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing conjectural about summarizing one set of points versus another. If you think that your statement contains important points I left out then let's merge the two. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:41, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, summarizing one set of points versus another, is the definition of a "conjectural" interpretation, which is to - "form an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information". You claimed you summarized the source, in fact, you summarized 10% of the source. The most you can ever do with the LA Times is read every single article they've ever written about Rawat and make one summary of what the LAT said. Picking out one or two articles that prove your POV or, even worse, picking out a few sentences from some articles is "forming an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information". This is why we have relied on what scholars say. The LAT can't even get the ownership, price and occupants of a house correct. As for your idea of adding my "conjectural interpretation" to your "conjectural interpretation", I think you've missed the point, there shouldn't be any in Wikipedia.Momento (talk) 05:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are in the wrong when you say accuse me of trying to "prove" me "POV". I don't think I've been trying to prove any POV, as I've only made a few edits to this article. If you'd like to investigate editors trying to advance POVs then I'd suggest that there are better places to start. As for the reporting, there's no contradictions. It isn't a contradiction to report in 1971 that Rawat is in London and in 1982 that he is in Malibu. Things change. The house may have been moved between businesses, or the Seva may be a subsidiary of DLM/EV. Your attempts to discard an entire reliable source is not helpful. If you insist on deleting material sourced from respectablepapers as being "poorly sourced", even after the uinput from WP:RSN, then other steps in dispute resolution should be taken. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:47, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is a contradiction to say the same house was bought on the same day for $400,000 and $500,000 or that it was bought by Rawat and by DLM and by followers?Momento (talk) 06:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say the later reporting is probably more accurate. The L.A. Times' articles never say that Prem Rawat bought the house, though one headline does. A subsequent interview with a DLM spokesman makes it clear that the DLM bought the house and paid the mortgage. I don't see any dispute over that, nor about the other info you deleted, such as the date of purchase. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:38, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You'd say " later reporting is probably more accurate". Are you saying the material you sourced from the reliable LA Times was wrong? Perhaps now you can see why peer reviewed scholastic sources are preferable.Momento (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you have a more reliable source for the purchase price then we can use that. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All the guidance we need on this is available at WP:SOURCES. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That policy tells us that articles should use "sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and includes "mainstream newspapers" among the "most reliable sources". It's a no-brainer that the L.A. Times and New York Times qualify. If Momento keeps insisting that they are not, and keeps deleting material from them as being "poorly sourced", then he is acting disruptively. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(E/C) The answer to that question (as well as the answer to the question of "what is suitable"), depends on context, overall length of article, and other factors. I would argue that discussion will be needed for specific cases, when these two aspects are not necessarily obvious. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to my discussion with Rumiton and VivK above. I have posted a response from a current follower of Prem Rawat (who was at the Alexander Palace meeting referred to above) called Tim Hain here: Letter from Tim Hain in response to VivK (and Ruminton) I thought it best to put it on my Talk Page rather than in here.PatW (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Jayen466 03:21, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I accept all of the versions of whatever happened as sincere personal recollections. For a time in my job in the military I did accident investigations and came upon this stuff almost daily, people astonished and outraged that their sincere description of something they witnessed was being contradicted by a colleague. It is just the way memory works, and it is why we need neutral sources to get things in perspective. There probably are none for this and many other occurrences, so we are going to need a lot of applied effort to push this article into neutral territory. If some editors continue to try to "win" by making emotional ambit claims and vilifying the opposition their efforts are not going to be helpful. Rumiton (talk) 15:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DLM/EV Articles of Incorporation

For anyone interested, I've posted on my talk page the relevant extracts from the DLM/EV Articles of incorporation which prove that DLM/EV has always had, and continues to have, a religious purpose.--John Brauns (talk) 20:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but that information is already available at the Elan Vital and the Divine Light Mission articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Jayen466 13:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is, of course, a distinct difference between a "church" and "religious purpose". Your original claim, John, was that Prem Rawat had set up a "church". If you can't see the difference between a "church" and "religious purpose", then a cursory look at a dictionary or something similar should make the difference clear. Armeisen (talk) 22:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having said that, I acknowledge that the articles of association do mention "church". Thanks JHB. Armeisen (talk) 22:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The DLM/EV Articles of Incorporation must state its status as a religion (in the state of Colorado, its place of incorporation) in order to retain it's legal church status with the Federal goverment. Under the U.S. Internal Revenue Service Code, 501(c)3, Elan Vital, formerly named DLM, is a non-profit organization, designated as a “church.” Therefore, legally, Elan Vital is a church and must to follow the IRS code in order to retain that status. See IRS Church Definition. But, not all 501(c)3 non-profits, such as The Prem Rawat Foundation, have a "church" designation. This "church" designation exempts a religious organization from paying taxes on its income in the U.S. while additionally being exempt from filing annual tax returns with the IRS. In other words, it is legally able to keep it’s financial dealings as private as any other church and religion, e.g., as the Catholic church does. All other 501(c)3 organizations must file annual returns under the law. You will never see any annual financial reports from Elan Vital made public because of their "church" status. The only d/b/a of Elan Vital is Visions International, which also enjoys the same church status, thus is able to operate without disclosing its financial information to the government or the public.

What makes this issue so very unique and controversial for Prem Rawat is that despite the fact that Elan Vital is a legal church in the U.S. enjoying all of the tax benefits that all other church and religious organization enjoy, it claims to have no membership, but only contributors. Having membership is one of the definitions of "church" as defined by the IRS. Moreover, since 1972, DLM/EV has been supporting and promulgating the work of Prem Rawat while receiving this benefit as a “church,” yet Prem Rawat claims he doesn't teach or offer any religious, spiritual instruction, or any religious doctrine or message. That is why Elan Vital's status is extremely controversial. Elan Vital claims no membership rolls, no place of worship, no clergy, no doctrines, and even eschews any connection to its leader, Prem Rawat. A skeptic might ask, "If Elan Vital claims it's not a religion or a church, then why are they legally able retain that IRS tax exemption and privacy protection? If Elan Vital states it has no membership, places of worship, or religious doctrines as other IRS-legal churches do, then who/what exactly is Elan Vital except its five employees and board of directors? If Prem Rawat does not teach a religious doctrine and spirituality, then why has Elan Vital been allowed to retain this this tax benefit for almost four decades while the non-religious Prem Rawat benefits from its support?” Hope this explains a bit about the controversy. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What this has to do with this article? If you have sources that describe this as Elan Vital staus as controversial, please provide them and add some text to the Elan Vital article. Otherwise, please do not use these pages to advocate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jossi (talk • contribs) 14:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since you ask, the relevance is that Divine Light Mission/Elan Vital has been supporting Prem Rawat's "work" for nearly 40 years. Prem Rawat is the subject of this article and those organizations wouldn't even exist were it not for Prem Rawat being, well, Prem Rawat, needing their financial support. And while I'm responding to you, I do question the necessity of having separate articles each for Divine Light Mission and Elan Vital when they are one and the same corporation. Prem Rawat is not notable enough or known to the English-speaking public enough to warrant either or both. But, I'm not POV pushing, advocating, or anything else of the kind. I'm simply stating the facts of the matter as they relate to the legal status of DLM/EV in the U.S. Prem Rawat claims he doesn't teach a religious or spiritual doctrine, yet he enjoys all the benefits of the financial support for his "work" of a legal church in the U.S., of which he once was named as it's "Chief Minister." Gimme a break here and stop being such a Hall monitor all the time Jossi. Thanks, and best wishes to you, too, Jossi. Sylviecyn (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are changing the subject. You are advocating for a purported "controversy" related to Elan Vital no-profit status, but that "controversy" is on your head only. If there are sources that describe that as a controversy, we can use them, otherwise you are mis-using these pages. And if you do not like my comments about attempting to keep this page focused on meaningful discussions, there is nothing I can do about it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wrote this in the article (end of second paragraph of Prem Rawat#Reception:

In the 21st century, The Prem Rawat Foundation, not profiling itself as a church or religion-related organisation, does not report on adherents or followers, but publishes annual reports regarding its finances and activities, available through its website.^[13]

Does that need additional references? (Note, ~~above~~ below on this page I created a section that visualises footnote content on this talk page) If it needs additional references, can someone give a hand? --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Prem Rawat's Roots and Lineage.

Is there any reason why Prem Rawat's self-proclaimed lineage might not be easily discovered here in an appropriate place? Ron Geaves' 2006 academic paper entitled 'From Totapuri to Maharaji (Prem Rawat) Reflections on a Lineage (Parampura)' states the following interesting information for those who maybe are curious to know what the actual Indian roots of Prem Rawat's teachings are. (So as they can make their own minds up about how far removed he has become from those teachings).

Maharaji has previously referred to this lineage as his own on his website as follows:
Shri Totapuri ji Maharaj (1780-1866)
Shri Anandpuri ji Maharaj (1782-1872)
Param Hans Dayal Shri Advaitanand ji (1840-1919)
Shri Swarupanand ji Maharaj (1884-1936)
Yogiraj Param Hans Satgurudev Shri Hans ji Maharaj (1900-1966)

The article at present provides no lead as to the roots of his teachings whatsoever. Isn't that a glaring omission? - only a link to this: "In the early 1980s, Maharaj Ji moved to disband the Divine Light Mission and he personally renounced the trappings of Indian culture and religion. Disbanding the mission, he founded Elan Vital, an organization essential to his future role as teacher." PatW (talk) 22:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not parampura, but Parampara. There are articles about these teachers at Advait Mat. That material was previously in the article, and could be re-added if it editors find that to be necessary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No true PatW. If you follow the link provided in Teachings section, you'll find what you're looking for.Momento (talk) 22:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anywhere a link to this information. I've looked. Please be clear exactly where I can read that 'Maharaji has previously referred to this lineage as his own' ( I think it's important that on this occasion Prem Rawat's personal claims are reported) and the list I quoted above. I don't even see this information on the Teachings page. Maybe I've missed it.PatW (talk) 22:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was there last week, editor Armeisen removed it.Momento (talk) 01:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pat for someone who as you claim was a dedicated student for many years you surely recall the concept of the importance of a living teacher. Parampara is difficult to establish. Several scholars believe that Prem Rawat is from the Sant Mat or Rhada Soami tradition. Greaves is of the opinion that he is connected to the Advait Mat and Sant tradition.Although both emphasize the necessity of a living teacher. Its interesting that the latter have always appeared to break the conventional mold and create their own path after succession. Personally I have not seen enough evidence from either viewpoint to have a definitive answer to this. One thing I think we can be sure is that a very young Prem received it from his father. Much more of what we can add to this article needs to be verifiable. Have you any scholarly sources regards any of this that could be added?Balius (talk) 05:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Ron Geaves is a scholarly source albeit controversial and a follower of Prem Rawat of course. However on the matter of lineage his research is as good as any except he is very keen to associate Rawat with certain forks of the lineage (as is Prem Rawat himself). I don't think that further 'verifiability' is necessary since the subject himself (Prem Rawat) published the above on his own website and Geaves has confirmed that in a publication. It's extremely typical of 'offshoots' of movements to believe and proclaim they are the exclusive 'legitimate' inheritors of the title and favour certain lineage paths. Scholars unanimously agree on this. In fact in the Advait Mat movement there plainly was (if you read their books and look at the birth and death days of the Gurus ) plenty of movement for Satgurus to coexist ie there were sometimes more than one. Also they interestingly don't all stress the importance of one living teacher and some of the Gurus seem to be perceived as sort of lesser or greater 'incarnations' if that makes sense. It's also clear that Gurus are hsitorically fond of associating themselves with past highly respected masters although they might almost as well find association with crooked ones! (since the actual links are so tenuous and wishful thinking). My own reading and investigation (out of personal curiosity) have led me to agree that Shri Hans (clearly Rawat's father and Guru) was initiated most likely by Swarupanand of Advait Mat (not Radhasoami's Swarupanand). However the Param Hans Advait Mat 'history book' disputes that he was the chosen successor suggesting that Swarupanand passed the guru mantle on to one Vairaganand. There are followers of this line active today. I've had correspondence with Mark Jurgensmeyers understudy David Lane who has written extensively on Sant Mat and Radhasaomi and Advait Mat. In his research with Jurgensmeyer (for the book Radhasoami Reality) he apparently met and spoke with various old Indian people who remembered Shri Hans. He is quite clear about the unreliability of information in India but said that he was told that Shi Hans had also been initiated by Sawan Singh of Radhasoami (prior to meeting Swarupanand of Advait mat) and was also booted out of ashrams for some perceived impropriety with women! That was most likely more to do with his more liberal attitude to women compared to the stricter general views that would have prevailed. Another situation that is not really clear in this article is the typical situation repeated in Prem Rawat's 'succession' where there is dispute over who is the rightful inheritor of the Guru title. Is it clear for example that his own brother (Satpal) has started his own 'offshoot' movement essentially claiming he is the rightful successor to the Guru title. Rawat may be the only valid living master in some people's views but there is an interesting pattern that certainly offers some prosaic explanations and food for thought about these beliefs. As such I think an encyclopedia should make such information available so that people can make up their own minds about how plausible the concept of these 'living masters' is.PatW (talk) 09:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have also read the Advait Mat book. Rather than the Advait Mat book disputing Hans as the chosen successor there is no mention of him at all. Its interesting to note that Vairaganand soon became incapacitated and had a short tenure as head of the Math. David Lane's story about Shri Hans being kicked out of Rhadasoami cannot be verified. I think you find that David Lane has written extensively on Rhadasoami and Sant Mat. Advait Mat is not his area of expertise. The philosophy surrounding them are very different. This could be a subject for another Wiki article I don't know if it adds greatly to this articleBalius (talk) 12:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No you're right, I also couldn't find any mention of Shri Hans which may be a measure of their desire to dissociate from him. Who knows? It could be because Swarup did only appoint Vairaganand. Unlike followers of both offshoots I prefer not to speculate about unknowns one way or the other. David Lane knows quite a bit about Advait Mat but has not written much you're right. My impressions are that there a lot of similarities between all these groups. I've also read enough to conclude that these myriad religious groups and their petty Lords are not something I need to take remotely seriously. However they are worthy of some brief acknowledgement as the movements that spawned Prem Rawat, Ekankar, and a bunch of other Guru movements which bore me to death now frankly. I agree that all this is not worth presenting in this article and belongs elsewhere. However I think that Rawat's own claims about his lineage from his own site are an important indicator to the reader that Rawat does acknowledge very particular roots that he feels possibly stretch back till 1780. that's it really.PatW (talk) 12:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some thoughts:

These lineages are all within Sikh tradition, right? (correct me if I'm wrong). The only mention of a relation to Sikh tradition is currently in footnote 88 (Melton - the Sikh tradition is also at least mentioned in the sources listed in footnote 92 an 96). So, I suppose mentioning the Sikh tradition as Prem Rawat's background is something worth mentioning in the body of the article text, probably in the Prem Rawat#Childhood section. Any thoughts?
Re. "Rawat's own claims about his lineage from his own site": is this still currently on a Prem Rawat website? I mean, I'm in doubt whether this is notable enough to mention in the Prem Rawat article when the self-published source itself would no longer be existing (when it could be included per WP:V#Self-published and questionable sources in articles about themselves if not contentious etc - but it appears to be contentious), and if the only still available copies of such self-published content are trivial web-copies published by organisations like webarchive that have no other reliability claims as re-publisher than that they once found that content on the web. Please provide a link if still on a Rawat-related website, and we take it from there.

I've also cut out the unnecessary dramatics of the title of this talk page section. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What Rawat said on his site is not controversial. In fact I was not suggesting to use that defunct site or another internet site. Fact is that scholar Ron Geaves, who is used liberally throughout the article already, published an academic paper in 2006 with what I reported above (in italics) written verbatim. I have his paper in my hand. What controversy are you talking about? There is none. And no they're not strictly Sikh lineages apparently. Are you suggesting that because Rawat no longer expresses that belief anywhere that is paramount to a denial or that means he's changed his mind about his roots? And that it is contentious as a result? If so you might as well say that because Rawat has changed his teachings we shouldn't mention his former teachings. PatW (talk) 13:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or do you think that Ron Geaves (being a follower himself) is so controversial that we shouldn't use him? Again if so we have to decide whether all the other entries in the article that refer to his papers are controversial. What's the consensus?PatW (talk) 13:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Pat, you're making a mess, and apparently don't read comments by others:

You write "I prefer not to speculate about unknowns one way or the other", well, if it's a matter of "speculation", then it's contentious.

You also write "And no they're not strictly Sikh lineages apparently." - Since Melton says it belongs to Sikh tradition, and you seem to indicate someone else suggests it doesn't (but do you have any source for that?), then, of course, it is "contentious". In such case we don't use the self-published source.

Re. "Are you suggesting that [...]", well no, I didn't suggest any of the sort. I said: probably the lineage info lacks notability for the Prem Rawat article. And you seemed to agree to that: "I agree that all this is not worth presenting in this article". So why create mess and suggest difference of opinion for an aspect where there is none? --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me but I've absolutely read all the comments. What I think are speculative are the long dead Gurus claims about their lineage. I'm not suggesting we go into my speculations. However Rawat himself apparently believes in this stuff so why shouldn't we report his speculation which is perfectly well supported by Geaves? Rawats belief that he is a Satguru is arguably contentious and arguably speculative but we report that here don't we? Now if you'd read Armeseins comments to me above you would know that he drew into question my natural conclusion (which you apparently share) that the movements were broadly Sikh. He said: Did you ever go to a Sikh temple as part of that practise? Were you requested to take on a set of Sikh beliefs? If you were, then you must have received a different knowledge from me. So I wrote back: No, and I make no claims to be a scholar of religion but I am aware now that there a a number of great similarities in lots of respects with Radhasoami and all those traditions that derive from that part of India. I don't want to harp on about Sikhism because although people associate Sikhism with Radhasomai and Advait Mat there are some differences. In short I looked into this a bit further and found that the Sikh thing is a little tenuous. OK? And you also misread me completely about what I actually distinguished as being notable to include on this matter here. That is - not a load of blather about lineage from unreliable, contentious sources, or Sikhs, but a succinct reference to Prem Rawat's uncontested belief about his roots as in that list he gives us. That is palpably interesting to anyone wanting to know what line of illustrious gurus he thinks he descends from. Whether he's right or not, or scholars are arguing about it is immaterial. Yes? Please understand that I am not in the least bit trying to make a mess.PatW (talk) 14:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More confusion, and mixing of topics. Armeisen didn't refer to lineage, nor background of where Prem Rawat grew up. He referred to practice of the adherents of Prem Rawat (and probably Prem Rawat's own attitude too). Melton (et. al.) say that the related movements were Westernised (e.g. "[...] one Sant Mat group which had separated itself from the tradition in India enjoyed great success in the West in the 1970s as the Divine Light Mission [...]" INTRODUCTION: SIKH/SANT MAT GROUPS, my bolding). No contradiction with Armeisen's comments on the practices in the movements. Melton also says "The Divine Light Mission is derived from Sant Mat (literally, the way of the saints), a variation of the Sikh religion [...] In any case Hans Maharaj Ji claimed a Sant Mat succession which he passed to Maharaj Ji." (which is in the footnote linked to above). This is completely unrelated to whether or not any Sikhism survived in the Western DLM/Elan Vital/... movements many years after Hans Maharaj Ji died.

And *please give the actual reference to where Prem Rawat says what*... if it's no longer available as a reliable source, we're not going to pretend it is. We're not going to say "according to Prem Rawat" unless the source is either verifiably Prem Rawat, or is a reliable source claiming that it is Prem Rawat's opinion (indirect evidence as in "a source under Rawat's control" is not going to push us to OR in claiming "Geaves said it, thus this is what Rawat said"). Even when the source is Prem Rawat himself without intermediary, and the source is still available, Wikipedia is not going to publish it if it's contentious, if we're following our own rules. So, please get informed about the rules, in this case WP:V. Even if Geaves said it (whether or not attributing it to Rawat), and he's a reliable source, we'd still need to be sure it's notable: probably not, as reliable source Melton says "... had separated itself from the tradition in India" - in that case mentioning the Sikh/... traditions Rawat's movements had separated from is probably enough, without going in to the details of their presumed, but not so very relevant, lineage. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No it's not enough. Here's why: This article is not primarily about Rawat's movement (or it's separation from it's roots)- it's about him- Prem Rawat the man. Wouldn't you agree that his beliefs are a prime ingredient in his notability since his teachings derive from his beliefs about himself being a Perfect Master?PatW (talk) 02:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sikh tradition? Francis, you may want to read Sant Mat and Sikhism. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I read Melton, see quotes above, thank you. Whether or not Melton is the ultimate source on this (seeing Sant Mat as a tradition related to Sikhism) I don't know, but in general I read Melton as I would read any RS. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are historical connections between Sant Mat and Sikhism, Francis. Guru Nanak and others in the Sikh parampara, are shared by Sant Mat, but that is where all connections start and end. Do you think that is needed to have an explanation of Sant Mat and Sikhims in this article? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sikhism and Sant Mat have been associated with each other for a number of different reasons. These include their common location and period of origin. Melton, Gordon J. (Ed.) Religions of the World: A Comprehensive Encyclopedia of Beliefs and Practices, p.1129 ISBN 1576077616. (both evolved in the Punjab region of India and in the same period) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the situation as I see it. If there is a consensus that it's too un-notable I'll give way to that. Reputable scholars and authors Melton and Jurgensmeyer both have generalised that Guru Maharaji was influenced by Sikhism. Quote from 'Radhasoami Reality' Princeton The teachings of the Divine Light Mission, led by the boy guru Maharaj-ji, are essentially those of Radhasoami". (Sikh) More recently, scholars including David Lane and Ron Geaves have said that, more specifically, the movement from which he derives is Advait Mat and that has some variants in practice, and different guru lineage from the Sikh Radhasoami movements. The Advait Mat group have a published hagiography of their lineage going back to Totapuri which is essentially the same that Rawat and Geaves claim - except that the Advait Mat group omit Rawat's father from their book because they dispute his 'accession'. Prem Rawat had a personal website (which Jossi authored for him) a few years ago where the 'lineage' (not entirely 'presumed' I hasten to add) was published. Rawat said there "This is the history thus far" and there followed the exact 'tree' that Geaves went on later in 2006 to publish in his academic paper.Here it is in small part: [41] The only thing I consider notable to this article is that Prem Rawat and Geaves both have sought to clarify the highly obscure roots of this movement by presenting us with a nice little 'family tree' to think about. Why if they are so 'separate from the tradition in India' would they bother to do this still? I think that is because 'sensible' people do not believe that a movement like this (whose meditation techniques, songs, other practices are plainly still essentially old Indian etc. etc.) has separated at all. So they ask questions because they can see that the same experience/techniques are presented simply in a way that is more palatable to westerners. So some of those curious people obviously ask Rawat more about his Indian roots and this 'family tree' is his answer to them. Is it not the responsibility of an encyclopedia to a provide these people with some answers or clues as to where they can find this information?PatW (talk) 17:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Radha Soami is not Sikhism. In any case, and as argued before, there is no reason why not to include what reliable sources say about the claimed parampara. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No no I seem haunted by Sikh! Sorry I just read that there were some close ties and comparisons with Radhasoami but I do get the difference. Well a little anyway. PatW (talk) 23:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I just don't see this lineage as belonging in this article, especially if folks are arguing that he is a a non-religious speaker/author. Too much detail. It only matters is he is a religious master claiming a tradition. Again, compare similar authors -- you might mention that, say, Keynes was influenced by Thorstein Veblen, or Bly by Jung, but even then it would be one line about one or two intellectual influences. Msalt (talk) 07:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You say "It only matters is he is a religious master claiming a tradition". But is he?Momento (talk) 13:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He clearly started his career as a religious master who inherited his father's status, and was claiming his tradition. When he westernized, he appears to have sort of or at least partially "resigned" from that claim, though I have seen evidence from reliable sources that would disagree on whether that was a sincere change or a strategic shift to lower his profile.

Either way, my personal opinion is that the details as discussed in this section of the Talk page are miles too detailed for his article. Comparable authors simply don't have their sources described that much. I think a quick paragraph in the teachings section that references Sant Mat, Radhasoami, Advait Mat and Sikhism, briefly noting disputes and linking to the Wikipedia articles on those subjects should cover it pretty well. Msalt (talk) 08:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, Msalt. That would be the best way. Note that there is already a mention of Sant Mat. If there are other sources these can be added and expanded in the Teachings of Prem Rawat if needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry but that is simply untrue. My experience is that he is a religious master (what kind of master is he then?) and has as recently as 2006 claimed a tradition. I was taught by him that becoming a Perfect Master (or Satguru) was not a matter of influence as you say, but of a mystical transference of power and authority that manifest as a distinct lineage. There's tons of evidence of this. The fact that 'folks are arguing that he is a a non-religious speaker/author' is quite disingenuous. Do you think a Guru is not a religious master? - especially one who has compared himself to Jesus and Krishna? Why should an encyclopedia collude in covering up his past?PatW (talk) 09:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Parampara is a new concept to me. I'd never heard about it before this talk page section. (Well, it is in one of the footnotes of the Prem Rawat article I'd never very well understood, and again the term there was not linked to the article we have on it). Anyhow, the closest simile I'm more acquainted to is Translatio imperii, almost litterally "mystical transference of power and authority" (I wrote most of the lead section of that article, including the reference to Le Goff) - but that's rather about worldly power rooted in a spiritual/religious concept, in a Western medieval context. Yeah, parampara looks a bit medieval to my Western eyes, sorry about that. Still can't get why more modern people can get worked up about such ideas, but they do, and if they do verifiably in reliable sources we can report about it. What I learn from my (only vaguely related) "simile" is that the distinction made by Pat, the "religious" vector vs the "worldly" vector is maybe not all that important: in a medieval thinking these weren't separated. Parampara is a very old concept, dating from the time when here in the West translatio imperii still mattered, but I'm reluctant to see a self-contradiction in it from the part of Prem Rawat and his historiographers. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have been around for decades and have never heard of "parampara" before today. It just is not a part of what he offers. I think the article could mention that there appears to be a lineage, but like most lineages, it is disputed. Would you be happy with that, Pat? Rumiton (talk) 11:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On a related note, if I understand correctly (correct me if I'm wrong), Prem Rawat, and the spiritual leaders of his country of origin, usually belonged to the top caste of the Indian caste system, so there's both your link to "worldly power and/or wealth" belonging to the package, and to an approach that from a Western viewpoint is somewhat medieval. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:26, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will not exactly "correct" you, but there is way more to it. In India the fact that Prem Rawat teaches the inner techniques to everyone who asks seems to be a major problem for orthodox Hindus, and probably also for Sant Mat people (though I am not sure about this.) They believe only Brahmins should learn the techniques, no one lower and certainly not non-Hindu westerners without any caste. I noticed once when an instructor who had also been an instructor with Prem Rawat's father was having a massage that he had a large, healed injury to his back. He told me an orthodox Hindu threw a brick at him as he was leaving a hall after a speech by Prem Rawat's father. I asked why, and he mentioned this issue. Rumiton (talk) 11:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We've established there is no contention about the Geaves reference to Rawat's claims. So I would like to move this debate back on to why it would in fact be a considerable omission not to include reference to Rawat's own beliefs about his 'Masterly' lineage. I would like to ask the neutral editors here one question: Why, if it is important to describe Ron Hubbard's beliefs about science fiction and aliens,[[42]] is it suddenly not important to describe a self-proclaimed Perfect Master's beliefs about how and where his Knowledge came down to him? PatW (talk) 02:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see a problem with mentioning such lineage, though it may not be necessary to go beyond Swarupanand here. Teachings of Prem Rawat has the same info. Any other views? -- Jayen466 03:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever teaching lineage Rawat claims should be in the teaching article. I think Rawat would say that his lineage begins with his father.Momento (talk) 10:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What you think is surely irrelevant. I repeat that this was on Prem Rawat's personal website authored by our own Jossi Fresco and also is reported by Ron Geaves. Plainly we should write something less opinionated and clear than stopping at Swarupanand.

Maharaji has previously referred to this lineage as his own on his website as follows:
Shri Totapuri ji Maharaj (1780-1866)
Shri Anandpuri ji Maharaj (1782-1872)
Param Hans Dayal Shri Advaitanand ji (1840-1919)
Shri Swarupanand ji Maharaj (1884-1936)
Yogiraj Param Hans Satgurudev Shri Hans ji Maharaj (1900-1966)

I suggest something like:

Prem Rawat has claimed from childhood that he was the latest in a lineage of 'Living Perfect Masters' (with reference). In 200? (whatever the date was) he described the history of his lineage from Shri Totapuri Maharaji (1780-1866) to his father and own Guru, Yogiraj Param Hans Satgurudev Shri Hans ji Maharaj (1900-1966).
Jossi please would you tell us when this website last had this info please?PatW (talk) 12:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Allegations

Why is there no mention in this article about these allegations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.114.226.172 (talk) 11:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No allegations of abuse have ever been made about the subject of this article. Beware of guilt by association. Rumiton (talk) 11:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The accused Indian gent was a prominent and active Mahatma (Great Soul) of Prem Rawat, empowered by him to impart Rawat's knowledge all over the world. This mahatma abused Rawat's trust and allegedly sexually abused some kids at some sort of school for followers children. There is no mention of it here because as Ruminton says Rawat himself was not found responsible or guilty in any way. Rawat has however received criticism from ex-premies and the abused children themselves for the way he dealt with the matter. Ruminton warns that you should be wary that your questioning the matter here is paramount to suggesting Rawat himself is guilty. I beg to disagree.PatW (talk) 13:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PatW (talk · contribs), has this incident been written about anywhere in WP:RS/WP:V sources? Cirt (talk) 15:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I understand there were some newspaper (for clarity: might be rather tabloid) stories about this (for clarity: about a presumed *follower* of Prem Rawat, and as Pat said, *not* implicating the subject of the Prem Rawat article). But I agree to both Rumiton and Pat, this has no place in the article on Prem Rawat. We're not reporting on Roman Catholic sex abuse cases in the article on Jesus Christ either, and these scandals were far more notable and extended than the news paper reporting on the allegedly offending follower of Rawat. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are no newspaper stories about this. This section needs to be refactored per WP:BLP, or at least the section tile changed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear..I am not sure a) whether there are legitimate sources b) whether criticisms about the way Rawat handled the matter should be included in a 'criticism' section. I am too uninformed to argue about this- so I won't.PatW (talk) 16:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hope my clarifications inserted above helped. If I'm still wrong I'm open to further correction. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well if there was no coverage of this incident in WP:RS/WP:V sources, then this discussion is a moot point. Cirt (talk) 17:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Francis, I think your observation was entirely to the point and I thank you for it. Rumiton (talk) 05:25, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked WillBeback top block user 147.114.226.172 [[43]] who I believe is a sockpuppets related to 147.114.226.173[[44]],147.114.226.174[[45]] and 147.114.226.175[[46]], who have all edited on Rawat or related articles and been blocked numerous times for vandalism.Momento (talk) 15:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Progress

I think the ban on editing has produced good results. I'd like to propose that we extend it for another week BUT in all fairness we should revert NikWright2's massive edit.Momento (talk) 14:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the protection has been helpful and that it should stay in place while outstanidng issues are resolved. Of course it's protected on the wrong version - it always is. Regarding outstanding issues, do you, Momento, have any furher objection to editors adding the subject's other names or do we still need to discuss that further? If those are added after protection is lifted will you revert them again? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:50, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NikWright2's version mentions aspects that I was unaware of and in some ways it is an improvement over the old version with its over reliance on Downton and under reliance on e.g. Derks/Van der Lans, and Foss/Larkin. It also treats the question of Rawat's leadership better. Andries (talk) 20:51, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be helpful to create a draft page in order to merge the best parts of both versions? That could be a productive way of making progress while the page is protected. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with Momento. I find the present version by Nik more unsatisfactory than the version it replaced: the time line is difficult to follow; the alleged hammer attack incident is out of place; so is the duplicated description of the foot kissing by his family; quotes from people such as the Chicago 7 belong in the Reception section, if considered notable, rather than the main part of the article. That is not to say that parts of Nik's version could not be integrated. I think that creating a draft page might prove useful. BRD is very well; we have had B, now let us move to R, and then to D. Jayen466 23:22, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We've been through the "R" already. Time for discussion. I haven't compared the versions and don't have any opinion about them myself. But it's logical to use the best parts of both drafts, combining them into a cohesive whole. I agree that quotes about the subject may be best in the "reception" section, unless we prefer to put them into chronological order (which I tend to prefer when practical). Since the lead should simply summarize the key points of the article, there's not need to put quotes there. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not get distracted here. My proposal is to revert Nik Wright2's undiscussed insertion of 10,000 bytes of material and protect that article why these discussion continue.Momento (talk) 23:42, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's start the discussion first. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are many problems with Nik's edit, (besides the fact that it was a massive edit with little or not discussion. Some material may be useful, such as new sources that have not been used that are of same or better quality of other sources used, but that's all. I will take sometime tonight to de-construct that edit. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Malibu house, proposed text

In November of 1974 he moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California that was purchased by the DLM for $400,000. The DLM, which also paid the mortgage^[14], announced that it would serve as the West Coast headquarters for the DLM.^[15] Rawat reportedly moved to Malibu from the neighboring Pacific Palisades seeking more seclusion for himself, his family and his entourage. The property, called "Anacapa View Estates",^[16] has been described as a "palatial, walled estate"^[17] and a "lavish hilltop estate."^[18] The presence of Rawat's followers in Malibu^[19] and the installation of a controversial^[20] heliport on the property caused concerns among neighbors.^[21] After breaking with the DLM in the early 1980s, he created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the home.^[22] By 1998 the property was valued at $15 million.^[23]

I think every assertion in it is reliably sourced and relevant. How can we improve it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:07, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is missing is the fact that the heliport was allowed to be built, based on an agreement with the Fire department, related to having built a massing water storage facility in the property to combat fires. Also, IMO, it is too lengthy in comparison with other material already in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it could do with being shorter (proposal below). That the DLM paid the mortgage would seem to follow naturally from the fact that they bought the property and does not need separate mention. Rawat did not have a family when he moved there, only a wife.

In November 1974, seeking more seclusion for himself, his wife and his entourage, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM, the $400,000 property, called "Anacapa View Estates"^[24] and described as a "lavish hilltop estate" in the press,^[25] also served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters.^[26] The presence of Rawat's followers in Malibu^[27] and the installation of a heliport^[28] on the property caused concerns among neighbors.^[29] After breaking with the DLM in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property,^[30] which by 1998 was valued at $15 million.^[31]

If any of the facts are contested, please let's hear about it. (Certainly some statements in these newspaper accounts, like that he married "a woman twice his age", are not factually correct; they were 16 and 24, weren't they?) Jayen466 00:41, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's looks better to me. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Better, but still misses the point about the water reservoir, and the use of the heliport by the Fire dept. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me research the heliport again. There's quite a bit of detail about it but I think we can summarize it in a sentnce. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid nothing can save this edit. "After breaking with the DLM in the early 1980s"?!?! Incredible Will! Religious scholars Hunt, Geaves, Barret, Melton and Messer are going to be beating a path to your door to find out where you unearthed this gem from.Momento (talk) 02:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Given that DLM changed its name to Elan Vital and is still associated with Rawat, this sentence did seem rather odd. What about the first three sentences? Can we live with those? Jayen466 02:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the source for the NASP:

In the early 1980s, Maharaj Ji began a process of disbanding the mission and its local ashrams. He dropped the remaining Indian cultural trappings, began to call himself simply Maharaj, and, adopting an extremely low profile, chose to relate to his followers on a one-to-one basis. He created the North American Sponsorship Program to raise financial support for his home in Malibu and his many travels.

I'm sure other editors understand what happened at the end of the DLM better than I. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is consistent with other sources, Will (what is NASP?). ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"North American Sponsorship Program". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, here's the source I used for the break-up of the DLM:

In the late 1970s the Divine Light Mission had also become the target of the anticult movement, and members were subjected to deprogramming in an attempt to break their allegiance to Maharaj and the group. In the early 1980s Maharaj responded to the problem by disbanding the mission, closing all of the ashrams, and reorganizing his following as merely informal students of his teachings. He has assumed a low profile and largely dropped out of public sight. He spends most of his time traveling the world speaking to his followers.
- "Guru Maharaj Ji." Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology, 5th ed. Gale Group, 2001. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

There may be other sources which describe the transition differently. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is consistent with Melton, Hunt and others. I would prefer to rely on these scholarly sources, rather than a tertiary source such as Gale. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand, Jossi. Melton seems to be the most widely accepted source here, by you as much as anyone. Yet every thing of his cited in this article, that I've seen, is some kind of encyclopedia -- a tertiary source. In fact, Melton is the editor of this book you're objecting to!! [47] Msalt (talk) 08:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Opps! lol! I stand corrected. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine with me. I was just responding to Momento's questioning. If a better source exists then we can use that instead. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd also quote this report, quoting "Maharaji's attornery, Linda Gorss":

Maharaji's need for more flights "has to do with a change in circumstances", Gross said. Until the spring of 1984, the one-time guru was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates, off Trancas Canyon 600 feet above Pacific Coast Highway. He and his family visited there a few times a year but they also spend time in Miami and abroad. Then Maharaji dropped his ties with the Divine Light Mission and settled full time at his Malibu estate. ^[32]

That appears to be sourced to Gross. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"seeking more seclusion..." is slanted, and implies the subject is somehow a fugitive, an insinuation at odds with his highly public lifestyle and travel. "Seeking privacy..." might be better, though the whole section seems absurdly over-focused on a long ago triviality. Rumiton (talk) 04:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The source says:

The move to Malibu in part was to find more secluded surrounding for the guru, his wife, and entourage. Non-members sometimes would seek out Maharaj Ji at odd hours, including one who stood outside the house at 2 a.m. one night yelling, "Maharaj Ji! Maharaj Ji!" Spokesmen, citing security reasons, would not disclose the exact location of the new property.

So we're taking "secluded" straight from the source. It looks to me like security was more the concern than privacy, but "secluded" covers both which is why it's a good term. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of a source is that? Seems close to sensationalism and tabloidism to me. Who were the "non-members" and what were they non-members of? How does the author know what happened at 2 a.m? Was he there? He is clearly repeating a rumour. Reputable sources do not make unsubstantiable claims like that. This is totally slanted stuff and deserves no place in an encyclopedia. Rumiton (talk) 05:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to me that the journalist is repeating what he was told by the spokeman. Anyway, it doesn't matter what his source is. The L.A. Times is a reliable source. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This whole issue about the house, secluded, palatial, helicopter etc is irrelevant. Melton says all an encyclopedia needs to say "Rawat moved to Malibu in 1974. All the rest is undue weight and gossip. Can you imagine any other Wikipedia BLP containing info about a supposed dispute with neighbors? Tabloid indeed!Momento (talk) 05:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be saying that we're not permitted to include anything in Wikipedia that hasn't been written by Melton. As it happens the size and opulence of the house has been commented on repeatedly. A picture says a thousand words, so maybe a photo of the house would allow us to use less text? ;) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:23, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't seem to be saying anything, I'm stating very clearly that all this trivia is unacceptable in any encyclopedia.Momento (talk) 05:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, you have a record of deciding that things are trivia, and then deleting sourced material. I suppose if this were an article about OSHO you'd insist that his Rolls-Royces were trivial gossip too. While you have made a huge number of edits to this article it doesn't belong to you. Please don't exert ownership. You're not in a position of deciding what is and is not allowable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure Osho's Rolls Royces were mentioned in peer reviewed academic articles and they did constitute a deliberate demonstration of devotion from his students. Rawat's house on the other hand is his private residence.Momento (talk) 23:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A helipad sentence:

In 1981 Rawat began work on a helipad on the property without first obtaining proper permits. He was eventually given permission for six flights per year on condition that he build and maintain a 50,000 gallon water tank for use by water-dropping helicopters during fires.^[33] He successfully had the limit raised to 12 flights per year but an increase to 36 flights per year was rejected in 1985.^[34]

OK, it went over a sentence. Perhaps Jayen466 can improve it. I think it covers the stuff Jossi wanted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:15, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal with shortened helipad section below. Can we live with putting "privacy" instead of "seclusion"? Still seems like an adequate summary to me, given that there were night-time disturbances according to the LA Times. Also now "scaling down of DLM" rather than "break with DLM". I took out the neighbors' concerns, since these only arose later, after the Jim Jones tragedy; prior to that, one of the LA Times articles said, neighbors didn't care, because he was just one of many celebrities in the area. Revision:

In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM, the $400,000 property, called "Anacapa View Estates"^[35] and described as a "lavish hilltop estate" in the press,^[36] also served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters.^[37] Controversy around a helipad on the property was resolved by installing emergency water storage and granting the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies.^[35] After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property,^[38] which by 1998 was valued at $15 million.^[39] Jayen466 22:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jaen. That will be OK with me at this time. Let's just hope that the article will not grow too much with information that may be borderline. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to the LA Times article "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Use", "Until the spring of 1984, the one-time guru was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates, off Trancas Canyon 600 feet above Pacific Coast Highway. He and his family visited there a few times a year but they also spent time in Miami and abroad. Then Maharaji dropped his ties with the Divine Light organization and settled full time at the Malibu estate, Gross said." Our article last had him moving to Miami in 1979 and never returning. Jayen466 22:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They moved to Miami after fires in Malibu damaged the house (PIP page 220). He was there until at least 1982, I'll see if I can find when they moved back.Momento (talk) 23:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it did but are you seriously thinking this is going in the article? It's irrelevant, undue weight and gossip.Momento (talk) 05:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A) Jossi asked for it. B) It's not gossip. None of it is rumors. Many public hearings were held on the permits required and it was a major issue in the community. C) So far as I can tell, as many articles were written about the heliports in the early 1980s as about any other aspect of the subject. It may not be his claim to fame, but it did bring him considerable attention. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

LA is not the center of the universe and applying for a helipad is irrelevant to his notability.05:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Momento (talk • contribs)

LA is the subject's home town. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Put another way, Malibu is the home of the "Lord of the Universe". So it is, in a sense, the center of the universe. Or at least the capital. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So what? Are you suggesting that if the LA Times reported that his daughter had a 21st birthday party we should put it in the article?Momento (talk) 05:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Times did run a short piece on the subject's first Father's Day. What seemed to impress the reporter most was that 1000 followers showed up with just 24-hours notice. There aren't many homes that can handled a 1000-person party. Earlier it ran a piece on his first child's birth, noting that it was natural, held at home (in Malibu) and that the subject assisted. Those were all remarkable facts at the time. They do give insight to the subject as a family man and tend to refute the claims by family members that he was a playboy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So it would naturally follow that we should have a section on natural childbirth!Momento (talk) 08:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll leave it to you to write that one. Regarding the heliport, a quick check reveals that this is the only helipad at a private residence in southern Los Angeles County (the mostly-empty northern part has some large ranches).[48] L.A. County is home to the most billionaires of any county in the U.S.[49] None of those 42 billionaires, nor the thousands of mere millionaires, has a helipad on their home, even though many of them undoubtedly own helicopters. Now these aren't sources I'd use for the article. But it does demonstrate that this heliport is unique. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rawat must have friends in high places or have an impeccable flying record. But that's a tiny accomplishment, why mention it? At 13 he led the biggest procession in history. Been there, done that. --- "Roads in the Capital spilled over with 1,000,000 processionists, men, women and children marched from Indra Prasha Estate to the India Gate lawn. [...] People had come from all over the country and belonged to several religions. A few Europeans dressed in white were also in the procession." Guinness Book of World Records, 1970 ---Momento (talk) 09:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't add it to the article, but an official in the county government went on leave following questions about special help he'd given certain individuals (including the subject) with their planning issues.^[40] As for the march, I'm not sure why we don't mention that - it sounds notable. 15:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

An estimated 1 million people participated in what is considered the largest march in the history of New Delhi, India, on 8 October 1970, in commemoration of Hans Ji Maharaj, lead by his son Maharaji (now Prem Rawat), who was 12 years old at the time.^[41] ^[42]

As I said before, I have no problems with adding a short sentence about the house, per the sources. Jaen did a good job of trimming it, may be he can now add something about the heliport and be done with it. The only concern I have is that the article can become this mishmash of information, some of which is encyclopedic and some trivial, but we shall see what happens as we move forward. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It'll take more than one short sentence. If the house were trivial it wouldn't be mentioned so often in news reports. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 15:29, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Le's see what Jaen can come up with. His word smithing may be helpful here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the house any more notable than flying your own 707 around the world at 25 years of age? Should we put that back in?Momento (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I've said before, this article ballooned out to 100,000 bytes. This 1RR policy suggests no penalty for adding stuff, just a penalty for removing. Can I suggest at this early stage that we limit this article to 60,000 bytes. That way editors will have to decide and explain why something is so important to put in that something needed to be taken out.Momento (talk) 22:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The house is more notable because it's been noted more often. Yes, his ownership of a jet has been noted often as well, as has his ownership of dozens of cars. By contrast, his teaching are mostly noted by only his followers and some academics. I'm sure that some editors here would wish for the subject to be known most widely as a brilliant speaker on spiritual matters, but that doesn't appear to be the case. The fact is that people are sometimes best known for matters that seem trivial to some. We need to take our cue from reliable sources, both scholars and journalists, to determine what about this (or any) subject is notable. I don't think that arbitrary limits are helpful. We have many 100,000 byte articles - if it grows too large we can split off parts. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:54, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mmmm... I beg to differ. Some aspects of a public people's life get press coverage, but that does not mean that it is related to their notability and/or that it is useful material for a Wikipedia article. This over-reverence for WP:RS concerns me quite a bit. When looking at material for articles we need to take these four content policies into account as a whole: WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, and WP:NOR. The fact that there is some material available in a source considered reliable, does not mean that it is automatically acceptable. Otherwise we would have the need for one policy only (WP:V), and that is certainly not the case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:14, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's natural that followers drawn to a teacher because of his message will think that his message is what's most important about him. It's also natural that people who just sit at home and read their newspapers will think that the person is notable for they read. A complete biography needs to address all notable aspects of a subject. The subject is not notable for being born in India, for having a wife, for having moved to the U.S., etc, yet we report these facts because they are important elements of his biography. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding policies, WP:NPOV requires that we include all significant viewpoints. Not just those included in scholarly, peer-reviewed journals, not just those included in authorized biographies, not just those preferred by proponents or opponents. I'm sure that some editors of Michael Jackson believe that his notability is due to his singing, and that we shouldn't include anything about his non-musical activities. But objective editors would acknowledge that there are many elements to the subject's notability, that when people think/talk/write about Jackson they don't limit themselves to covering his music. And vice versa, there's more to Jackson than Neverland. However we couldn't write about him without mentionining Thriller and Neverland. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:02, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree also. Will says the house is "more notable because it's been noted more often" than, by contrast, his teaching which "are mostly noted by only his followers and some academics". But the house, cars, plane etc are only notable because they are associated with Rawat. Has there ever been an article about the house that doesn't mention Rawat? I think Will trying to move this article to a more tabloid style. Rather than concentrate on the subject of the article and what makes him notable i.e. being a guru/teacher for 40 years, Will seems to want to take the emphasis away from Rawat the teacher and his teachings and place it on peripheral stuff, houses, helicopters etc. The LA Times is read by more people than Downton's "Sacred Journeys" so we should pay more attention to the LA Times and what it writes about.Momento (talk) 05:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You've misquoted, or misunderstood me. I was contrasting his home to his jet, in answer to your question whether it was more notable than his house. I'm not seeking to move this article to a "more tabloid style" - I'm not quite sure what that is. What I am trying to do is include facts that have been reported on repeatedly by notable, reliable sources. If you'd like me to describe what I think you are trying to do with articel I could, but I don't think that's a productive use of our time. Le'ts get back to the material at hand. Here's Jayen's draft:

In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM, the $400,000 property, called "Anacapa View Estates"^[35] and described as a "lavish hilltop estate" in the press,^[43] also served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters.^[44] Controversy around a helipad on the property was resolved by installing emergency water storage and granting the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies.^[35] After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property,^[45] which by 1998 was valued at $15 million.^[46]

If there are any factual mistakes then let's fix them. Otherwise I assume it is appropriate for inclusion in the article once protection has been lifted. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is either undue weight or you're looking to have a 1,000,000 byte article. And what about the rest of the 1974 article - "Guru Maharaj Ji moved into a secluded house in Malibu with his new bride following security concerns. The guru who has made a considerable impact among American youth since first visiting LA in 1971 claims 50,000 followers in the US and 3,000 in LA County alone. Some people have criticized Maharaj Ji for luxurious living but Berzner says that Maharaj Ji has left behind the traditional image of spiritual sages to be more relevant to a technological age and his spiritual insights should not be disregarded because of his lifestyle". Will, you seem to have decided to tell a story and are finding the sources to prove it but leaving out what doesn't suit, so please don't assume you can include it. Momento (talk) 06:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The question isbn't about undue weight, or your arbitrary length limit. The question is whether anything here is improperly sourced. You haven't mentioned anything so I assume there aren't any assertions in this text that you disagree with.

As for my motivation - shall we discuss your motivation too? I'll start - I did the research and found a lot of material on this subject that wasn't mentioned in the article. For example, the lack of any mention of Mishler. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, you and Rumiton do not have a veto over items in this article, no matter how much you post on Talk. The current version has been negotiated and improved at length by many editors, and the only objections are vague claims of undue weight or "tabloid style" by editors with admitted COI. That is not a valid reason to delete properly sourced text. Msalt (talk) 06:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gee Msalt, if I don't use the talk page you say I'm not seeking consensus and when I do use the talk page you say I'm seeking a veto. Please tell me how I can satisfy you. And Will, I also have done some research and there is much that I could add but this is an encyclopedia not an attic. How about - "In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage after security issues Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM as the DLM's West Coast headquarters, the $400,000 property described as a "lavish hilltop estate" in the press, was damaged by the 1979 Malibu fires. Rawat subsequently had a helipad on the property fitted with emergency water storage and gave the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies. After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help DLM pay for the property, which by 1998 was valued at $15 million". Agreed?Momento (talk) 07:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about satisfying any one user, including you or me, it's about working together, seeking consensus, to create a neutral and informative article. (By coincidence, that's the best way to satisfy me.) Yes, deleting material without comment in a very contested page is a bad idea. Contesting every possible issue at great length is also bad. If you'd like to see a good model of Talk discussion, check out the Laozi page which Jossi, Vassyana and I have been editing recently.

The way you proposed text here and are negotiating is an excellent development. One thought -- and this is something I am sometimes guilty of too -- when we're emotionally invested in an article, for whatever reason, it's easy to fall into thinking that we personally have to comment on every contentious issue. It's helpful sometimes to let others speak up and carry the load for a while. Otherwise, it looks like we think we might own an article. That's what my comment about veto was about, it seemed like you felt you were the judge we needed to satisfy. I understand you might feel the same way about me, given your "how can I satisfy you?" comment. I apologize if I give that impression, and will take it as a good occasion to take a breath. Msalt (talk) 20:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's our source for "security issues" and the 1979 fire? Why are we deleting other sourced info? Can you explain the changes? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look it up, but I recall that the house was included in a report on a different fire in which it was threatened. I'd also cite that story as yet another example of the notability of the property. In a compendium report on wildfires in Southern California, it was one of the only properties indentified individually. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Security issues is one of the bits you left out of the 1974 article. The 1979 fire damage is covered in Peace is Possible and presumably in the reliable LA Times. You have deleted so much from the articles to make your synopsis, it's hard to tell what you mean. Momento (talk) 08:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will, why don't you create a separate article about the notable house?Momento (talk) 08:47, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's no need to be snide. IIRC, the source didn't say "security" but I suppose that term could be inferred from the circumstance. The source did say "seclusion" or "secluded". Someone else wanted it to be "privacy". I'm not sure why we can't just use the word from the source, but if you guys think "privacy" or security" are better words that's fine with me.

I don't know what you mean by "deleted so much from the article in your synopsis" - we can't include every word in every source. It's the purpose of an ecyclopedia to compile and summarize material.

Can you explain your other changes as well, please? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What you explain as "we can't include every word in every source. It's the purpose of an ecyclopedia to compile and summarize material", I call "conjectural interpretation" as in WP:BLP - "Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source". That is, you "summarize" what you want from a source and ignore the rest. As for your comment " the source didn't say "security" ", I suggest you re-read the reliable LA Times, particularly the sentence - "Spokesmen, citing security reasons, would not disclose the exact location of the new property".Momento (talk) 10:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may be confusing two issues here. Every editor MUST take part of a source and discard the rest. Otherwise we could just copy and paste the article, in clear copyright violation. The BLP policy says to look at WP:OR for more on conjectural interpretation. The section at point appears to be WP:SYN, and this section of the OR lede: "Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources." I don't see any sign that Will BeBack is conjecturing or using this source to say something not clearly meant by the source, nor do I see you even making any case that he has done that. Msalt (talk) 20:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As i said, "security" is fine with me. Why did you remove "Anacapa View Estates"? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No what you said was "the source didn't say security" and it did, you were wrong. Why did I remove "Anacapa View Estates", please look at BLP, particularly "Wikipedia articles should not include addresses".Momento (talk) 11:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry - I don't have access to every piece of data at every moment. Is "Neverland" an address of Micheal Jackson? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neverland was a name Jackson gave to his property . Other examples are The Ponderosa and Gracelands. Anacapa View Estates is a specific address indentifying locale . Momento was quite correct to remove it in mop. Balius (talk) 21:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an address. An address would be something like 1500 Anacapa View Lane. This is the name of the property, as shown by relaible sources. For example, I've already cited aboce this text: "Until the spring of 1984, the one-time guru was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates..." Another article says:

Until last spring, Maharji was seldom at his mansion, called Anacapa View Estates, said Linda Gross, a Los Angeles lawyer who represents him.
- "Ex-Guru Seeks to Expand His Heavenly Rights" JUDY PASTERNAK, Los Angeles Times Apr 11, 1985; pg. WS1

What's our source that contradicts these and says it's an address? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is an address, Will. Many properties in that area do not have a street number. (you can check Google Maps, or any other mapping app online) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A) We have sources that say it's the name of the property. B) Google maps is a poor source for the existence of street addresses. C) A street address does exist for the property, according to FAA records.[50] D) Google maps has no trouble finding that address.[51] E) Many other properties nominally located on the same street have addresses.[52] F) The property is composed of several lots, at least one of which has an address on an interescting street.[53][54] ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's an address and that's that. Next you'll be saying that we can say "it's the big house next up the hill to number 14 Mockingbird Lane" and since we don't say it's number, it's not an address.Momento (talk) 23:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, Will could not have been more detailed or persuasive in his points. No offense, but "It's an address and that's that" is absurd as a response. Next you'll be saying "Yes it is! Is so! IS IS IS IS IS IS IS IS IS IS IS IS." Ancapa View Estates doesn't even make sense as an address. Why would the address of one house have "Estates" (plural) in it? Many articles refer to the city or district that a well known person lives in -- Hollwyood, Brentwood, Jackson Heights, etc. No one considers that to be an address. Msalt (talk) 23:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A city or district is an entirely different matter to a house name. There are hundreds of houses in Malibu but only one "Anacapa View Estates". Just like there are thousands of houses in Washington but only one "White House". BLP policy is clear - Wikipedia articles should not include addresses, e-mail addresses, telephone numbers, or other contact information for living persons". "Anacapa View Estates" is contact information. Our responsibility is to follow BLP policy not to try and circumvent it and not to propose or make edits in the expectation that other editors will fix any mistakes. BLP should be written conservatively.Momento (talk) 23:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could we apply a do no harm? It seems to me that the address of a LP is a delicate matter, and the wording for that material will not suffer if we exclude the address or what seems to be the address. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

E/C Yes, there's only one "White House", and only one "Neverland". Is including the names of those properties in biographies a violation of BLP? I don't think so and I think our articles on George W. Bush and Michael Jackson would be much poorer if we didn't include the names of their most notable residences. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think that if you type Neverland on google maps, you get Jackson's house. Again, I would request that it is considered omitting the address, as per "do not harm". ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But is listing the name of an estate in habited by a public figure an automatic BLP violation? Is the listing of Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster's country house a BLP violation too? Certainly many people would like to harm George W. Bush - so should we delete "White House" from his bio? Google leads us right to it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not claiming a BLP violation, Will. What I am requesting is to consider omitting the address per do no harm, given the fact that the name of the estate is actually an address. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:08, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have made my arguments already, and it is unnecessary to repeat them.It is up to you and others here to decide if it would be OK to omit the address or not. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't responded to my sources that show the name isn't an address and that the proerty has a normal street address. You haven't provided a source calling it an address. If you and Momento are going to say that it's an address just because you both call it an address then our standards for sourcing are being thrown out the window. What harm are we doing by re-publishing a name already published numerous times? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Up to you and others, Will. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're wise to step back from this one. That leaves only one editor who is insisting that well-sourced, NPOV, material cannot be included. I hope we can get consensus on this minor point without further disruption or personal remarks. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, George Bush's address is not given in his article and the address of Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster is given as Omagh, County Tyrone, Northern Ireland. The equivalent Malibu, California, USA. I guess that settles that.Momento (talk) 01:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's settled if we follow their example. You're confusing the Duke's birthplace with his reseindences, at least one of which is listed by name, Eaton Hall (Cheshire). As for Bush, article on G.W. Bush lists his official residence, the (White House. His private residence, Prairie Chapel Ranch, ia mantioned in several other articles, including one about his daughter. The summer home of G.H.W. Bush is also listed, Walker's Point. So if you're fine with following those examples then we should be done arguing over this text. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not confusing anything. I followed your link to Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster article and there was no mention of his residence. But you've proved my point, Eaton Hall (Cheshire), the (White House and Prairie Chapel Ranch, have their own articles because they are all notable buildings. Rawat's isn't. Momento (talk) 10:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Now we're just going in circles. No one is contesting that the material is accurate, verifiable, or NPOV. The mentioning of named estates is obviously not a BLP violation because the information is included in the bios of numerous prominent individuals. Wwe've gone over the notability issue many times before and have shown that it a noted property with a unique facility. Etc., etc. Let's avoid going over the same ground again and again, and try to make some progress instead.

Here's the text we've got so far, including the additions by Momento.

In November 1974, seeking more privacy and security for himself, his wife and his entourage, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM, the $400,000 property, called "Anacapa View Estates"^[35] and described as a "lavish hilltop estate" in the press,^[47] also served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters.^[48] Controversy around a helipad on the property was resolved by installing emergency water storage and granting the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies.^[35] The property was damaged in a 1979 fire. After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property,^[49] which by 1998 was valued at $15 million.^[50]

If someone has the page cite for Peace is Possible that'd help. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is the one, you've got the chronology wrong. - "In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage after security issues Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM as the DLM's West Coast headquarters, the $400,000 property described as a "lavish hilltop estate" in the press, was damaged by the 1979 Malibu fires. Rawat subsequently had a helipad on the property fitted with emergency water storage and gave the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies. After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help DLM pay for the property, which by 1998 was valued at $15 million". Thanks.Momento (talk) 11:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty sure that the approval of the heliport came before the 1979 fire. That's why inserting the fire as the main action doesn't make sense. The 1979 fire came midway in the chronology. Also, you mention "fires" in your draft - was it damaged by more than one fire? Also, you omit the name of he estate despite sourced evidence of its notability. Otherwise that draft is pretty good. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you show us the articles and we can see what is written.Momento (talk) 11:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One article is online here ("Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Use", about half-way down); this mentions the estate's name and dates the first helicopter landings permission to 1980. The other article is here. (These are convenience links, with the usual caveats, rather than LA Times originals.) Jayen466 12:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I note that entering "Anacapa View Estates Malibu California" in Google Earth locates the property. Google Earth also locates "Neverland Ranch Santa Barbara" (in addition, in the article on Neverland Ranch we give its precise street address), and it also locates George Bush's ranch by entering "Prairie Chapel Ranch Crawford TX". Bill Gates' house is identified by its exact geographical coordinates, as well as its street address. So this is clearly not without precedent. However, I am not sure I agree with all of these precedents! Some feel a bit over-eager and potentially invasive. As for this case here, I think the benefits of having the name of Rawat's property in the article are marginal. I don't think I would insist on it. If people are interested, I reckon they can google this information, or find it in the biography. Jayen466 11:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jayen466 makes some good points. One of them is that the names of prominent estates are routinely included in their inhabitant's bios. The identification of the property with the subject is easily verifiable. It's neutral. But is it invasive? That's a problem with subjects who once were celebrities but now wish for more privacy. Google Earth reminds us that none of us has the privacy we might wish for (even sovereign nations have had their secrets revealed). Nonetheless, in the interests of peace and consensus, I wouldn't object to deleting the estate's name even though it's well-sourced and relevant as part of trying to minimize the verbiage and stay scrupulously correct. That leaves us with:

In November 1974, seeking more privacy and security for himself, his wife and his entourage, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM, the $400,000 property and described as a "lavish hilltop estate" in the press,^[51] also served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters.^[52] Controversy around a helipad on the property was resolved by installing emergency water storage and granting the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies.^[35] The property was damaged in a 1979 fire. After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property,^[53] which by 1998 was valued at $15 million.^[54]

Any objections to this text? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How about this for the first sentence: In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage following security concerns, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California.

I think we still need to insert a source that the property was purchased by DLM. Plus the Cagan cite for the fire damage. We should retain some sort of reference that there was a controversy around the helipad (which the above version does, and an earlier proposal didn't). Jayen466 12:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't found the word "controversy" or any suggestion of controversy in the LA Times article re the helicopter. Unless someone provides a source for this claim I am going to have to remove under BLP policy. The 1978 Mailbu fires material provides two benefits - it explains why Rawat & Co moved to Miami in early 1979 and also makes sense of why he would put emergency water at the heliport. Logically and chronologically, the "fire" comes between the house purchase and the emergency water. Therefore - "In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage after security issues Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California. Purchased by the DLM as the DLM's West Coast headquarters, the $400,000 property was damaged by the 1978 Malibu fires. Rawat subsequently had a helipad on the property fitted with emergency water storage and gave the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies. After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help DLM pay for the property, which by 1998 was valued at $15 million". In the meantime, I will shift "the fire" material to its correct logical and chronological place.Momento (talk) 17:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hang on Momento, source coming in a mo. Jayen466 17:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to wait Jayen, I have altered the second mention of the house to insert the "fire material" in the correct place. I have left "controversy" awaiting a source. Is anyone going to be brave enough to remove the duplicate material?Momento (talk) 17:23, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First: LA Times 1985/7/7 Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Use: "Maharaji-the professional name now used by Prem Pal Singh Rawat, formerly known as Guru Maharaj Ji-can continue descending from the skies to his landing pad 12 times a year, the annual limit imposed for five years in April, 1983. Six landings were originally allowed in 1980 because Maharaji agreed to install a 45,000-gallon emergency water storage and pumping system that would be available to county Fire Department helicopters." The way I understood the sources, the installation of water storage was not to protect his own property, but a condition for his being allowed to use the helipad -- it was felt the helipad should serve some public benefit as well. More on the original controversy around the helipad to follow. Jayen466 17:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It was a trade off.Momento (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Second: [55] [56] (these are all convenience links, with the usual caveats): It appears some of the residents were upset about the potential noise pollution caused by the helicopter, as well as the permission for this helipad setting a precedent for others. It sounds plausible to me. Jayen466 17:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Many development applications are opposed but it's hardly a controversy. And the fact that Rawat was allowed to build the heliport is evidence that the authorities decided that his application was fair and the objections over ruled. So claiming it was a "controversy" is not only an overstatement, it suggests that Rawat did something wrong when in fact he didn't. Momento (talk) 17:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From one of the above articles: "The guru has taken out full page advertisements in local newspapers to try to placate residents' groups which vigorously oppose the heliport, saying it not only creates noise but is an unnecessary hazard." I think this means it was in the public eye to a sufficient degree, at any rate more than ordinary planning issues, to make it notable. Even The Times in the UK had an article about it. It does not imply that he did anything wrong; after all, a compromise agreement was reached to everyone's satisfaction, and we say that. Jayen466 18:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's the strength of the word "controversial" that I object to. It is a disagreement with neighbors over a development application and it isn't significant enough to warrant a sentence in an encyclopedia. I wonder why we are even including the helicopter business in the article. If everyone thinks the heliport is important, I think it would be better to stick with the facts - Rawat was able to build a helipad on the property after agreeing to supply it with emergency water storage and give the Los Angeles County Fire Department the right to use the helipad for firefighting emergencies.Momento (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The page number in Cagan's book for the fire in Malibu p219-220: Judy Osborne recalls Maharaji asking the staff to leave immediately. "He didn’t want any heroics," she comments, “even though this was his home and everything that he had was in there.” His concern was for their safety. "The fire came but it blew right over the house," she remembers. "All the trees were burned, and so were the grass, the shrubs, and the hills around there. And then there was the soot. Everything in the house was filthy from soot."Maharaji and his family stayed with his brother, Raja Ji, for a while, and then within a few months, they relocated to Miami while the Malibu house was being repaired. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose we could quote the text you gave above in the reference as small text, though perhaps not strictly necessary for such a minor issue. On the other hand, it explains the move to Miami. Any views? Jayen466 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are no reasonable arguments for excluding the name of Rawat's Malibu property, "Anacapa View Estates." The name has been published in reliable sources many times; the name of the residence is a matter of public record, based on the helipad approval by public officials; and the helipad is designated for public use by publicly funded firefighters in fire emergencies. The name of this estate is even more public than, say, Bill Gates's home or any other public figure's home based on it's unique situation of having the helipad with the conditions set forth by public approval process for the helipad. "Anacapa View Estates" is not the street address of Rawat's home, it's the "name" of his residence. Using it is not a violabion of BLP, therefore it should be included. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:04, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since we're still wordsmithing this I've posted the text here with some changes:

In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage following security concerns, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California.^[55] Purchased by the DLM for $400,000, the property also served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters. ^[35] Described in the press as a "lavish hilltop estate", it was damaged in a 1978 brush fire.^[56]^[57] Controversy around a helipad on the property was resolved by installing emergency water storage for use by the Los Angeles County Fire Department in emergencies^[35] and by limiting the number of permitted flights. After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property,^[58] which by 1998 was valued at $15 million.^[59]

I changed "the 1978 Malibu fires" to "a 1978 brush fire", since there was only one and it was obviously in Malibu. However the text isn't quite right when it says "Controversy around a helipad on the property was resolved by installing emergency water storage..." There were really two issues. The first was the original construction of the heliport without getting permits from CalTrans and the Coastal Commission. That was resolved by adding the water tank. The other controversy was about the requests to increase the number of permitted flights from the original six to twelve and then to 36. That controversy was not resolved by the water tank. The first request for an increase was granted and the second was denied. I'd say the sentence could by made more accurate by adding to the end, "and by limiting the number of permitted flights". It would be inaccurate to say that the heliport was built in response to the fire - the first application for it was submitted in 1977. Also the NASP was set up to pay for the property, nto to help the DLM pay for the property, according to the source. As for the word "controversial", it was cited in the first draft I posted at the top of this section. Here's the reference:

One person he helped was the Guru Maharaj Ji, head of the Divine Light Mission, in his successful bid to oopbtain a conditional use permit to build a controversial helipad on his Malibu estate. The religious group obtained a one-year trial despite intense opposition from some homeowners when Deane Dana, the new 4th District supervisor, led the board in granting the permit.
- "Interest Conflicts: Planning- Door Open to abuses?" VICTOR MERINA Los Angeles Times; Jul 22, 1981, pg. A11

Here's an earlier reference:

The county Board of Supervisors Thursday approved a one-year trial for a controversial helipad at the Malibu estate of Maharaj Ji, spiritual head of the Divine Light Mission sect. Gary Hoffman, president of the West Malibu Homeowners Assn., called the board's action "ridiculous" in the face of community opposition. In August, 1979, the county Regional Plannng Commission denied Maharaj Ji's application for a conditional use permit for 180 landings a year. In appealling that decision to the supervisors, Ji reduced the number of flights to six a year.
- "1-Year Trial OKd for Sect's Helipad" Los Angeles Times May 22, 1981; pg. F6

I'd also note the headline of one article. "Maharaj Ji's Helicopter Plans Stir Furor" Jan 17, 1980. "Furor" isn't quite the same as "controversy", I'd argue it's more intense. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks great, with the added bonus of addressing the limit on permitted landings. I am for implementation (unless someone has a good source asserting that DLM definitely remained responsible for the payments – though even so, the wording suggested above still would cover this). Jayen466 22:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Version proposed above, now with revised citations -- pls check:

In November 1974, seeking more privacy for himself, his wife and his entourage following security concerns, Rawat moved to a four-acre property in Malibu, California.^[60]^[61] Purchased by the DLM for $400,000, the property also served as the DLM's West Coast headquarters.^[60]^[61] Described in the press as a "lavish hilltop estate", it was damaged in a 1978 brush fire.^[62]^[56] Controversy around a helipad on the property^[63] was resolved by installing emergency water storage for use by the Los Angeles County Fire Department in emergencies and by limiting the number of permitted flights.^[35] After scaling down the DLM's activities in the early 1980s, Rawat created the North American Sponsorship Program to help pay for the property,^[64] which by 1998 was valued at $15 million.^[65]

Unless I've overlooked something, we still need to indicate a source for "4-acre", and a source for the DLM having been the purchaser (wasn't that in Melton?). Jayen466 01:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Melton says " Premies purchased an estate in Malibu into which the couple moved".The LA Times 1/12/79 says - "In 1974, the Divine Light Mission purchased the four acre $500,000 Anacapa View estate as the residence for its youthful leader etc". Unless anyone can find a source that says the DLM sold it to someone else, DLM is the one paying it off.Momento (talk) 07:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have inserted the LAT cite mentioning DLM above. Jayen466 12:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are sources saying that the DLM made the down payment and mortgage payments. There are also later sources that say the property belongs to Seva Corp. I haven't seen anything in the news about a transfer. The information is in public, primary sources but unless it's reported in a secondary source we shouldn't report it here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article "Guru's Heliport Backed as Fire Aid", Los Angeles Times 25 March 1982, ROBERT W STEWART, pp. WS1, WS14 has the following quote: "According to Linda S Gross, a San Diego attorney who represents the applicant, the property is owned by Anacapa View Estates, which in turn is a legally registered fictitious name for the Seva Corp. of Nevada." See also [57]

Jayen466 12:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Without more information it's hard to know if Seva is a part of DLM/EV, or if title to the property was transfered from DLM to Seva. It would be unsupported OR/SYN to assume that DLM continued to hold title or needed to be paid unless we can find a source that says so. We know that Melton says the NASP was created to pay for the property and the subject's travel expenses. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Issues with Nik's "edit"

I read the material copied by Nik from his sandbox and found so may problems with it that I can only summarize on broad strokes what is wrong with it:

Multiple WP:OR violations - much editorializing, and unattributed opinions;
Multiple WP:SYN violations, use of several sources to forward novel syntheses of these opinions
Use of unreliable sources such as an anarchist magazine
Multiple citations and quoted text from one source (Foss & Larkin) and Pilarzyk at the expense of other scholarly opinions available in a multiplicity of sources

The only useful thing about this edit is that a new source was found (Björkqvist), that could be used to augment other scholarly studies already used in the article.

If Nik wants to improve the article, he should work alongside others discussing a few additions at the time, in the same manner that other editors are doing here (see discussions above), so that his edits can be assessed by all involved and consensus found. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Between the 8th of February (when Nik Wright2 made first comment on this page this year) and the 26th of February (when Nik Wright2 inserted 10,000 bytes of material) there have been over 1500 comments made by more than a dozen editors on this page of which Nik Wright2 has made 16. Four appeared in the "Peace is Possible" section, four appeared the "did donations made Rawat rich" section, 3 appeared in the "Downton" section and one each in the "Balyogeshwar", "Organization", "Headings", "References" and "External Links" sections. Could anyone point out where the insertion of 10,000 bytes of material was " thoroughly discussed"?Momento (talk) 23:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the additions had the effect of improving the article none of the above would be relevant. They do not improve it, they make it thoroughly worse on every level. If there is anything there that provides new insight, let's keep it and ditch the rest. Rumiton (talk) 04:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary Rumiton, it wouldn't matter if NikWright2 was Shakespeare and he'd found the Rosetta stone, an undiscussed edit of 10,000 bytes is unacceptable.Momento (talk) 05:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

reg. 4. I think that Nik Wright stopped the overreliance on Dowton which is a good thing. Andries (talk) 08:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A good thing? Overreliance? Care to explain? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:45, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So much reliance on Dowton while (nearly) excluding Lans/Derks and Foss and Larkin who had somewhat differing views is undue weight to Downton. Andries (talk) 15:01, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If in your opinion Downton was over-represented, over-representing Foss & Larkin is the solution? You do to make sense. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:08, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I never said that. Andries (talk) 15:18, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See [58] Andries (talk) 15:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You did say it. Read your own words. If editors bring new sources or new material from existing sources, these can be discussed. There are many sources that discuss Prem's leadership issues. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I meant to say that in certain aspects Nik Wrights version was an improvement. Andries (talk) 16:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me and several other editors here beg to differ. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nik Wright's version decreased the references to Downton from 10 to 11, so you may be you can explain your statement that his version goes the "expense of other scholarly opinions". What is the harm of citing Foss/Larkin, Pilarzyk more than the previous verion? Andries (talk) 16:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am puzzled by your comment. Please read my comments at the start of the thread. This "edit" suffers from a lots of problems, and if Nik, you, or anyone else wants to propose additions, do the same as other are doing here. Argue for inclusion, discuss and gain consensus. There is no other way, and you should know this by now, Andries. You are no newbie. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I only request that you explain one point of your objections to Nik Wright's version. I explained my view on Nik't version. Andries (talk) 16:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that it is appropriate to use long portions of quoted text of one source? I am unwilling to consider Nik's "edit" in this way. He needs to self-revert and engage in discussions, period. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, I admit that long quotes are poor style. Would point 4 of your objection to Nik's rewrite be dealtwith if the long quote is changed to a shorter attributed statement? Andries (talk) 18:13, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, it will not. As said befor by me and others in this page, we ought to review small portions at a time, and reach consensus. Nik's "edit" is irreparable as it stands. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The pre Nik article uses Downton as a source seven times out 88 cites. That reflects Downton's unique position as the only scholar who actually wrote a book about Rawat and his followers.Momento (talk) 08:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Nik's "edit" is irreparable as it stands"...Jossi. I agree. The tone of the rest of the article, though it arguably gives an incomplete and imperfect picture of the subject, is consistent, even-tempered and encyclopedic. Nik's highly editorialised and POV-drenched addition cannot be reconciled with it. The addition needs to come out before we can evaluate the points it raises, then represent them properly in an increasingly neutral article. Rumiton (talk) 11:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed.Momento (talk) 16:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"In the early 1980s... Prem Rawat abandoned his "almost divine status as guru".

This is really not true. There is a video from summer 1980 on Google where Rawat's own words completely negate this and also enumerate, for example, the amount of ashram members in Europe, and his attitude to these things. I am posting a precis of his words here because I feel that editors who are not familiar with the historic facts should have some irrefutable perspective/information other than is presented here. Many feel this article uses selective quotes to play down the Hinduistic/Avatarist nature of his teachings well into the eighties and beyond.

Here is the link to a Google Video of Prem Rawat, in a talk with ashram premies (his followers who lead a monastic lifestyle-Recorded in Rome, Italy June 25th, 1980.) [59]

Here's my precis (it's an hour and a half long):

"There is a very big difference between you accepting/choosing to be in an Ashram - it's not your own wish and will...it's a gift that given to premies by Guru Maharaji...to have a chance to dedicate and devote this life...Ashram means 'shelter'...we need the shelter of Guru Maharaji from this world...One of the basic things of an ashram is to dedicate your life, to devote your life...truly...what is the motive..our understanding of GM has to be there." (Talks about stuff you don't do in ashram like watching a movie..eating ice cream cones..how it's a waste of time..becomes an ordeal for "This Mind".) " What has to happen? When it rains a lot of drops fall which never become a part of that ocean - then there are some drops who fall in one particular place who will definitely get to the ocean. Where do we fall? - Initiators are taught in the 'Candidate Program' to be nobody (indicates this is run by him personally)..they have to lose themselves completely. And they haven't. "What is a premie in this day and age and since ever a human being was created?" "A premie is not just someone who has received Knowledge" "The definition is one who has received the gift that GM has bestowed upon that being, practises that gift, has that love, has that faith and has surrendered in his heart towards towards Maharaji, towards the living master of this day." "To be in an Ashram is not a joke..not everyone's gonna be in the Ashram..very few people in fact...it could be everyone of you sitting here." "What is the purpose of the Ashram? How does it fit into the propagation. "Look..whenever Guru Maharaji is going to come into this world... and has... and will..and by his grace will keep coming again and again and again - because it's not guaranteed either..he can skip a turn and that'll be the devastation of this entire planet!" "Then there will be those devotees who undoubtedly want to dedicate and devote this life - would like to hand him the reins of this life..not everybody's gonna be able to do it. A few can do it. For those few devotees who want to give this life one single purpose..Satsang, Service and Meditation..Ashram is for those people. "Guru Maharaji himself..that power himself does take a human form so that you can relate for every individual human being" "GM has given you that opportunity to be his premies in this day and age" "Mind just brushes it off" Time is coming when Ashrams are becoming what they're supposed to be..that holy environment ..maintained by you..your responsibility..no games." "We've had enough of the games" "The season for skating over the ice is over" "We have to wake up and arise" "To gear up to the consciousness to have the first Public Program" (Talks about how GM is the "only solution to bring peace to the world".) Who's gonna take care of all these aspirants? "in which way will these people be able to come and see what we are preaching, what this knowledge does in one's life?" "Will ashrams demonstrate that?" 36:00 "We have to understand that what we have to do is what GM wants us to do not what our stupid mind tells us to do" "If our faith in GM isn't there then the mind is gonna win every single time" ..."All the joking around has to stop and the deep commitment has to happen"...."How is propagatation going to happen?" " More than anything else by everybody being ready to obey Maharaji's Agya (orders)" "A beautiful opportunity has been given to you..you've got to somehow quit listening to your mind" "When you get up and say (after singing Arti) 'Bole Shri Satgurudev Maharaj Ki Jai'... mean it." "When you sing Arti mean it."
Second Half:
"How many Ashrams are there in England? There are between 46-70 in the great United Kingdom" "How many of you want to be Initiators" "How many of you have sent in an application?" "You know it's really incredible. This year the whole picture is changing." "It's not all a piece of cake..Initiators make a lot of mistakes...they're in a peculiar position...they're not solid as a rock..we had an acute shortage.right now there an 'IDP' (Initiator Development Program) program that's been going on 14 months." (This took place in Malibu and was directly overseen by Prem Rawat). "There's different stages of surrender" "How do you surrender to GM?" "let go of your ego, your mind, most important that something that's inside of you that's you..your concept of you...to let it go.. Surrender is a chain reaction..Satsang, Service, Meditation has to happen" "What does SSM bring..love and faith in GM." "understanding this is where I need to be" "then slowly I can let go of myself". "If my faith isn't there I can't surrender to GM" "(when I am surrendered) my heart that has been pouncing in the ways of the world will be docked at GMs feet. Then that will be my salvation". "Someday with GM's grace there'll be ashrams everywhere." "There has to be a necessity..then yes I can see there will be good reason" "Everybody wants to be in the nice ashram..with the nice view...all that has to go away....we have to learn a little humbleness..to be that little humble..if we can have that ...GM's grace..be worthy of that..have that love..SSM...that will carry us.." 1:13:10 "Not to get into relationships, not to get into ego trips, but to stay in that space, with GM" "In the coming years , I am trying to work at this, to upgrade the living standards" (Talks about plans to make ashrams centres for propagation). How many Ashrams premies in the UK? 340? How many Germany? Heil! Huh? 120. From Scandinavia? 60 And Italy? 53. France? 170. Spanish? About 50... Portugal? About 60. Greece? Austria? Israel? Egypt? Yugoslavia, (inaudible answers) How many ashrams are ready for inspection? (laughter) The white glove treatment!"

I personally have limited time to join in here from now on due to work pressure - there is another link to a video on the same subject (ashrams) from june 1979 Lingfield UK here [60] PatW (talk) 12:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think your foot got in the way of your shooting again, Pat. The article says in effect, "Prem Rawat changed things in the early eighties" and you say "No, he didn't. Look, this is from 1980!" I hope that was a genuine mistake, and not a deliberate fiddling with the dates in the hope that no one would notice. The speech here, while not acceptable as a source, also supports the statements made in the article that the ashram rules were not for anyone who wanted to receive Knowledge, but only for those who wanted a far higher level of commitment. Rumiton (talk) 13:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The way it reads it looks as if he swept 'his divine status as guru' away circa early 1980. I would argue that he didn't and even now has not completely - isn't it true that many followers still sing Arti to him and perceive him very much as they did then? Also, (as I say on Google) and you point out, in this video he does almost try to put people off the heavy Ashram commitment (I was there by the way) but on the other hand presents it as the greatest opportunity for premies. I personally think that many people suffered huge dilemmas of conscience about this and that has never been addressed - hence a lot of the criticism he receives today from premies who were very devoted at the time. This article leans terribly heavily towards playing down Rawat's advocation of the ashram imho. Why you yourself even argued the other day here that Rawat never advocated a monastic order! That is why editors should be aware of the facts no matter if it is not acceptable as a source. Basically you are for some reason apparently keen to paint a particularly inaccurate picture. Several impartial editors have told me they value some reports of personal experience as , presumably, it helps them see the whole story. Of course I'm not fiddling with the dates. As a matter of fact, Rawat continued very much advocating the ashrams (whilst trying to purge them of 'hangers on') until 1983 when, as is reported, he very suddenly shut them. So I don't dispute the ashram dates, just the insinuation that he dropped his 'divine status as guru'. That is absurd and you must know it.PatW (talk) 13:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It says the early eighties, Pat, not early in 1980. Abandon this futility. Rumiton (talk) 14:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So I take it you do think "In the early 1980s Prem Rawat abandoned his almost divine status as guru". Thank you, but I disagree. It'd be nice if we could have less of this 'Cease and Desist' tone here and just hear out each others points.PatW (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rumiton, I'm having trouble finding our source for this assertion:

In the early 1980s, the Hindu traditions and religious parables that had been prominent in Prem Rawat's teachings were abandoned as obstacles to a wider western acceptance of his message, and gave way to an exclusive focus on "Knowledge", a set of instructions about living life. Formerly considered the "Perfect Master", Prem Rawat abandoned his "almost divine status as guru". Spiritual growth was no longer attained by the grace of the guru, but from the teachings and their benefit to individuals.

Here are the two ciations being used to reference that assertion:

The teachings provide a kind of practical mysticism. Maharaji speaks not of God, but of the god or divinity within, the power that gives existence. He has occasionally referred to the existence of the two gods—the one created by humankind and the one which creates humankind. Although such references apparently suggest an acceptance of a creative, loving power, he distances himself and his teachings from any concept of religion. It is not clear whether it is possible to receive Knowledge from anyone other than Maharaji. He claims only to encourage people to "experience the present reality of life now." Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschews material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers. However, deliberately keeping a low profile has meant that the movement has generally managed to escape the gaze of publicity that surrounds other NRMs."
- Hunt, Stephen J. Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8
Maharaji had made every attempt to abandon the traditional Indian religious trappings in which the techniques originated and to make his presentation acceptable to all the various cultural settings in which followers live. He sees his teachings as independent of culture, religion, beliefs, or lifestyles.
- Melton, J. Gordon. Encyclopedia of American Religions.

Perhaps there's a better way to summarize those statements. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Saying that he has abandoned his almost divine status is a very strong and contentious point. In fact, it can be seen as detrimental to Rawat, both by lowering his status and indicating a certain cynical manipulation of his own image. It certainly should not be included without a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msalt (talk • contribs) 20:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, Stephen J. Hunt Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8 says - "Once viewed by followers as Satguru or Perfect Master, he also appears to have surrendered his almost divine status as a guru.Now, the notion of spiritual growth is not derived, as with other gurus, from his personal charisma, but from the nature of his teachings and its benefit to the individual adherents to his movement. Maharaji also dismantled the structure of ashrams (communal homes)".Momento (talk) 01:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We should add that reference to the article. Does it also say that this happened in the early 1980s? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, I know it is very true that our personal testimonies are not WP:RS here but in the talk pages we are free to express our personal opinions within limits. I have no problem in saying that as a follower of Prem Rawat I believed he was the incarnation of God with a capital 'O' and 'D'. I think it would help these discussions if you, Rumiton, Jossi and any other premies here, would answer a simple question so that we know your position - do you believe Prem Rawat has a unique divine status, at this moment in history? Yes or No? --John Brauns (talk) 01:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've always understood "divine" to mean "of or from God", as such I believe we are all divine.Momento (talk) 02:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I asked you if you believe Rawat is uniquely divine, so you didn't answer my question.--John Brauns (talk) 08:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're all unique John.Momento (talk) 10:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

in the talk pages we are free to express our personal opinions within limits. Sorry but no. These pages have been abused lately with too much chatter unrelated to improving the article. Those who want to discuss personal opinions on the subject, or present their personal testimonies, beliefs, or disbeliefs, should do that in their talk pages, or better off-wiki. Any attempts to convert theis page into a WP:NOT#FORUM, will be vigorously opposed, as it is detrimental to an orderly debate about improving this article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This talk section is about beliefs in Rawat's divinity, and how to express those beliefs in the article. I think it would help other editors if they knew whether you, Rumiton and Momento still believe that Rawat is in some way uniquely divine, as many premies did in the 70s. I don't want to start a long debate - just a simple declaration of your beliefs would be fine. --John Brauns (talk) 08:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't we make a blacklist of suspicious editors, administrated by John? With people redbaiting each other? It would make things so much clearer!--Rainer P. (talk) 11:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That list may have been drawn up a long time ago. John is a self confessed apostate of Prem Rawat's teachings. Someone who it appears believed Rawat was uniquely divine.Whatever that means, I expect he no longer holds that believe. I don't think follow editors will be particularly helped by Rumiton and Momento making a declaration on this matter. Our focus needs to be on a creating a Wiki article Balius (talk) 13:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course you’re right. I was just trying to be ironic. Being German, with a history of Gestapo and Staatssicherheitsdienst in my veins, I just allowed myself a little idiosyncrasy regarding anybody trying to systematically snoop on people's Gesinnung (hard to translate that one. Perhaps “innermost disposition” or “attitude”) for propaganda purposes.--Rainer P. (talk) 16:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll try to make myself clearer. I understand and accept that this article needs to be based on reliable sources, but the discussions on this page are often about what content from those sources to include and what weight should be given to differing views. I am suggesting that we can use another source, not to directly reference, but to cross-check the academic sources against. That source is the premies and ex-premies who contribute here. I'll give a banal example - a while back there was a discussion about the picture of Rawat's malibu house. The picture was rightly excluded because of copyright considerations, but part of that debate was whether it actually was his house. Now Jossi could have immediately confirmed that it was as he has been there many times, but for some reason he chose not to. Now this business of Rawat abandoning his divine status can be clarified by the premies and ex-premies who post here, so that the right balance can be achieved in the article. I have given my view, and I see no reason why others who lived through those times cannot give theirs. BTW, 'uniquely divine' is something like Jesus Christ for Christians.--John Brauns (talk) 15:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

John, personally I have no idea what Prem Rawat's house looks like, and Jossi has been chiefly representing the Wikipedia view in this debate, but I take your point. A lot of nonsense has been sincerely proposed by editors who "weren't there", picked up from so-called reliable sources, that could easily be quashed by anyone who WAS there. The idea that the expression Lord of the Universe was a serious form of address to Prem Rawat rather than a silly term from someone's Catholic upbringing, and the expression forgiveness blessing spring to mind. Nonsense and red herrings, both. I think we can all be more aware of these things, from both points of view, and help each other make the article more truly neutral. Regarding my current view of the subject, meine Gesinnung (Rainer, in this context I would say "underlying feelings", though I know it isn't quite right) I will try to oblige tomorrow. Rumiton (talk) 14:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Die Gesinnung, taken literally, basically means something like a fairly consistent way your senses work, rather than an emotional or cognitive condition (OR).--Rainer P. (talk) 08:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Senses? Not really, I think, in English "senses" are more physical. More an ethos, isn't it? Anyway, let's leave it as intriguingly untranslatable. So, in deliberate defiance of Wikipedias's guidelines re Article Talk Pages and assuming good faith rather than suspecting game playing on behalf of John, here is the way I see the subject.

Q. Is Prem Rawat like Jesus to me?

A. No. Small children often talk about their "imaginary friend". If they continue with this fantasy into adolescence it can become disturbing. Adults who talk this way are downright creepy. Yet this is the basis of most religions. Jesus, Krishna, Mohammud, Buddha and God him/herself seem to me like imaginary friends. I am not impressed by them. I am impressed by Prem Rawat.

Q. Do I consider Prem Rawat "uniquely divine"?

A. "Divine" is one of those words. Someone might say that divinity is incompatible with mortality. Or they might say the opposite, that since we are all creations of God, we all must be divine. Watching Prem Rawat's videos for many years I have seen that he shows certain consistent qualities. He speaks with kindness and humour about human life. He has an understated clarity of perception. He consoles and empowers those who listen to him. He is patient and without spite. He overcomes failure and mockery and does not become embittered. These are desirable qualities for me in my life, and practising the techniques helps me to progress towards them. Rumiton (talk) 13:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There can't be many COIs greater than believing the subject to be divine, so I think the question is fair enough. Of course, other editors are free to refuse to answer or offer up obfuscating answers. --Simon D M (talk) 15:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read what I wrote? Rumiton (talk) 15:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Did you ever believe Rawat was like Jesus, Buddha, Krishna? There are many reliable sources that state he presented himself, and was worshipped by his followers, as divine. If you didn't, what did you make of those, like me, who did?--John Brauns (talk) 12:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A good and fair question, I think. I was raised as an atheist, I never went to Sunday School or had any religious education. I still don't have much respect for these otherworldly figures, it seems to me that the world would be a nicer place if they had stuck to their carpentry and charioteering and left people alone to develop their natural kindness. I did bow to Maharaji, as we all did, because I liked and respected him for the very positive changes he and Knowledge had made in my life, and because it seemed like the thing to do. I doubt that I would have thought of doing that by myself. These days when I see him I just wave and smile at him, and he waves and smiles back. It is way better. The Holy-Joe premies who had a Sunday School approach to Knowledge made me feel uncomfortable. Some of them are still around, and they still make me feel that way. Have I answered you? Rumiton (talk) 13:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Serious issue

As you may know protection of this page has ended. But WillBeback has objected to unprotecting it because he says, I (Momento) "haven't said if I'll accept the compromise on the names, and we're still debating details about the text on the residence". In other words, Will Beback wants to lock out all editors until I agree to his "compromise on the names" and "the text on the residence". So much for consensus, Will.Momento (talk) 10:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember that assuming good faith is a policy, not a suggestion. The page was protected due to revert warring. If editors here are willing to constrain their reverts, to discuss changes and seek consensus, then editing here would be much easier. I've suggested that protection be maintained pending the approval (or rejection) of Jossi's proposal for 1RR. I realize that not everyone on this page thinks that it will help. However the revert-warring is undoubtedly counter-productive so we should try to do what we can to avoid it. Mediation is another step in dispute resolution that needs to be be given a sincere try. Rather than focusing on differences, or deleting paragraphs when we disagree only with a single word, let's try to find points of agreement and seek to minimize disputes. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Does "constraining out reverts" mean accepting a highly editorialised and biased version that was foisted on us without consensus? Apart from that, I agree that too much ink has been wasted on trivialities. Rumiton (talk) 12:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with giving 1RR a try. Rumiton (talk) 12:13, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Under 1RR, every editor has permission to revert once per day. Reverting even one time a day isn't a right, it's just an allowance. The enforecement is handled by uninvolved admins. Only two types of content may be removed beyond XRR limits - clear BLP violations and clear vandalism. I emphasize clear. While one editor may consider an edit to be "highly editorialised and biased', another may see it as necessary balance. Rather than playing to the extremes let's all try to make edits that will be acceptable to every reasonable editor. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think Momento understands the nature of concensus. I think the 1RR is an excellent move forward on this article in order to reduce any disruption in the editing of the article text itself. If anything, 1RR requires editors to discuss edits prior to reverting text in the article, thereby finding concensus among editors before reverting, and I think it's a very good idea. Long overdue, imo. Sylviecyn (talk) 13:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just reread the article. It is now repetitive, incoherent and self-contradictory, and packed with pseudo-intellectual pomposity ("interregnum", for God's sake?) It is by far the worst article of several hundred I have helped develop. It will take many hours of hard work to make it even readable. And we are going to do this at the rate of one disputed edit per day? I think the only way is to revert to a pre-Nik Wright version that at least made sense, and discuss future changes from that point. Rumiton (talk) 14:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Protection has expired. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The NikWright2 addition has to be revered as a matter of priority. It violates numerous BLP policies.Momento (talk) 16:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Janice Rowe already did. In the same edit,

"San Ji" [sic] was added in the intro;
Will's cleanup of ISBN tags was annihilated;
The $400,000 was re-introduced two times, in two consecutive paragraphs (+ twice in the footnotes);
along with some other undiscussed and/or questionable material;

I've already removed the "protected" tag (technically a revert), which means that I couldn't even correct Janice's typos for the next week if Jossi would have it his way. So, 1RR/week - no thanks. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The problem now is that any editors who want this article to be logical and readable cannot undo the duplications fort fear of being seen as "reverters".Momento (talk) 17:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal was changed to 1RR per day, not per week. And restoring a fix (such as the ISBN numbers) will not be considered a revert in any case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note that 1RR does not mean one edit per day. It means reverting another user's edit. The deletion of the duplicated material about the house, would not be technically a revert. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:17, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, abstain from making judgements on that. It would be technically a revert. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For a violation of the probation to be considered, an editor needs to go to WP:AN/I and report the violation. I would argue that anyone doing that, should be mindful of WP:POINT. I would be very surprised if an editor here will go to ANI to report 1RR probation violation on such edits; and if an editor does, I will be very surprised in an uninvolved admin will apply a block on the basis of such report. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Stranger things have happened, Jossi. I haven't made any reverts. I have re-arranged the house material to improve chronology, so I could remove the duplicate material but I'm waiting to see if anyone can provide a source for the "helicopter controversy". I will use my revert to delete it if it is unsourced. Mind you removing "unsourced" material in a BLP isn't limited by the 1RR.Momento (talk) 17:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Easy, Momento. Seek consensus, it works better and is less problematic. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Jossi, abstain from making jugements on that, you've no clue what an uninvolved admin would do. Or would you consider such admin "uninvolved" yet "subject to your advise"? --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:44, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Uh? I have been an admin for several years, and I can tell you that in cases in which 1RR probations have been enforced, these issues are resolved quite easily. Admins can see through WP:POINT quite easily. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bolded uninvolved in my comment above. An uninvolved admin, having to take a decision about something s/he knows little could as well concentrate on the objective side of the technical revert. I have no clue, you have no clue. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the main point of my comment above was the dubious quality of Janice's single edit, it tried to do too much at once (major revert + several additions/changes). Incremental improvements are generally better. If 1RR (or the prospect thereof) leads to people favouring large, multi-faceted edits, that's generally a step backwards (unless for the geniuses among us that succeed in getting multiple things right all at once). --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

1RR probation in effect

The Wikipedia Community has placed this article on 1RR probation. Articles in category:Prem Rawat are subject to community-enforced article probation restrictions for a period of three months, ending June 4 2008. Probation will be re-assessed at the end of that period, and extended if needed. Editors violating 1RR (one revert per editor per day), or that engage in disruptive editing may incur escalating blocks performed by uninvolved admins, or have other reasonable restrictions placed on them in relation to these topics. Editors must be individually notified of article probation before admin actions are undertaken. Violations, along with a link to this probation notice, should be posted to WP:AN/I, where uninvolved editors will make a determination.

Better than making even one revert is first seeking consensus for contentious edits. When we feel the need to revert let's honestly label our edits as "reverts". This probeation won't solve any of the disputes about this topic. To get resolution the steps proposed in dispute resolution should be followed by involved editors. Mediation is one possible step, but many of the simpler steps are also helpful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The articles currently in the Category:Prem Rawat (as of the start of the probation) are:

Cirt (talk) 22:14, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Visualisation of talk page footnotes

Some of the quotes and examples used on this talk page use footnotes, they are visualised here:

References

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

^ Schnabel, Tussen stigma en charisma ("Between stigma and charisma"), 1982. Ch. IV, p. 99:

[...] de [...] intellectueel weinig opmerkelijke Maharaj Ji. [...] the [...] intellectually quite unremarkable Maharaj Ji.
^ Cite error: The named reference Kent2001 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ ^a ^b "Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission" in The Ruston Daily Leader, April 9, 1975
^ ^a ^b Hunt, Stephen J. Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8"
^ Brown, Chip, Parents Versus Cult: Frustration, Kidnapping, Tears; Who Became Kidnappers to Rescue Daughter From Her Guru, The Washington Post, February 15, 1982
"Suddenly there were new reports from people who'd actually managed the Divine Light Mission—Robert Mishler, the man who organized the business side of the mission and served for 5 1/2 years as its president, and Robert Hand Jr., who served as a vice president for two years. In the aftermath of Jonestown, Mishler and Hand felt compelled to warn of similarities between Guru Maharaj Ji and Jim Jones. They claimed the potential for another Jonestown existed in the Divine Light Mission because the most fanatic followers of Maharaj Ji would not question even the craziest commands. As Jim Jones convincingly demonstrated, the health of a cult group can depend on the stability of the leader.
Mishler and Hand revealed aspects of life inside the mission that frightened the Deitzes. In addition to his ulcer, the Perfect Master who held the secret to peace and spiritual happiness 'had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combatted with alcohol,' Mishler said in a Denver radio interview in February 1979."
^ Melton, J. Gordon. Encyclopedic Handbook pp.144-5 "However as the group withdrew from the public eye, little controversy followed it except the accusations of Robert Mishner [sic], the former president of the Mission who left in 1977. Mishner complained that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaj Ji's personal use. Mishner's charges [...] found little support and have not affected the progress of the Mission."
^ The "Sant" term is derived from the Sanskrit sat (सद) (truth, reality) has overlapping usages, its root meaning being "one who knows the truth" or "one who has experienced Ultimate Reality". It differs from the false cognate "Saint" as it is often translated. The term Sant has taken on the more general ethical meaning of "good person", but is assigned specifically to the poet-sants of medieval India. Schomer, Karine, The Sant Tradition in Perspective, in Sant Mat: Studies in a Devotional Tradition of India in Schomer K. and McLeod W.H. (Eds.), pp.22-3, ISBN 0-9612208-0-5 According to Rigopoulos, (page 404) the word Sant is generally used for the bhakti saint poets of the Marathi and Hindi speaking areas.
^ Sanskrit: बालयोगेश्वर = child master of yogis
^ Cite error: The named reference Mangalwadi was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ Cagan, A. Peace is Possible: The Life and Message of Prem Rawat. Mighty River Press -ISBN -10: 0-9788694-9-4
^ Hadden, Religions of the World, pp.428"The meditation techniques the Maharaji teaches today are the same he learned from his father, Hans Ji Maharaj, who, in turn, learned them from his spiritual teacher [Sarupanand]." 'Knowledge', claims Maharaji, 'is a way to be able to take all your senses that have been going outside all your life, turn them around and put them inside to feel and to actually experience you...'
^ james V.Downton -Sacred journeys: The conversion of young Americans to Divine Light Mission (1979) Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-04198-5
^ About The Prem Rawat Foundation
^ "Teean-Age Guru's Sect Grooses $3.78 Million" Los Angeles Times; Apr 10, 1976, pg. A27
^ "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2
^ "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings", JUDY PASTERNAK Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985, pg. WS1
^ "Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" MARK FORSTER, Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979 pg. 3
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" MARK FORSTER, Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979 pg. 3
^ "Interest Conflicts: Planning- Door Open to abuses?" VICTOR MERINA Los Angeles Times; Jul 22, 1981, pg. A11
^ "Supervisors to Rehear Guru Helistop Request", JACK BIRKINSHAW, Los Angeles Times, Apr 26, 1981; pg. WS1
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ ""FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998,
^ "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings", JUDY PASTERNAK Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985, pg. WS1
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2
^ "Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" MARK FORSTER, Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979 pg. 3
^ "Interest Conflicts: Planning-Door Open to abuses?" VICTOR MERINA Los Angeles Times; Jul 22, 1981, pg. A11
^ "Supervisors to Rehear Guru Helistop Request", JACK BIRKINSHAW, Los Angeles Times, Apr 26, 1981; pg. WS1
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998
^ "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings" JUDY PASTERNAK, Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985; pg. WS1
^ "Guru Wins OK From Caltrans for Helicopter Pad" ROBERT W STEWART., Los Angeles Times Jun 3, 1982; pg. WS15
^ "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings" JUDY PASTERNAK, Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985; pg. WS1
^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings", JUDY PASTERNAK Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985, pg. WS1 Cite error: The named reference "MDenied" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998
^ "Interest Conflicts: Planning- Door Open to abuses?" VICTOR MERINA Los Angeles Times; Jul 22, 1981, pg. A11
^ Navbharat Times, 10 November 1970 (from Hindi original) "A three-day event in commemoration of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, the largest procession in Delhi history of 18 miles of procession; it culminated in a public event at India Gate, where Sant Ji Maharaj addressed the large gathering"
^ Hindustan Times, 9 November 1970 (English) "Roads in the Capital spilled over with a 1,000,000 processionists, men, women and children marched from Indra Prasha Estate to the India Gate lawn."
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998
^ "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2
^ ^a ^b Cagan, A. Peace is Possible: The Life and Message of Prem Rawat. Mighty River Press. ISBN 0-9788694-9-4, pp. 219–220
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ "Fomer guru on a different mission, Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998
^ ^a ^b "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; p. B2
^ ^a ^b Cite error: The named reference LAT1979 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
^ "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE, Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989
^ "1-Year Trial OKd for Sect's Helipad" Los Angeles Times May 22, 1981; p. F6
^ "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC
^ "Fomer guru on a different mission, Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

Contentious edits

"despite rising mistrust of cults."?. This is a headline from the LA Times but no evidence is put forward in the article. It is a beat up and unworthy of an encyclopedia. Momento (talk) 07:31, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure which aprt you think is unsupported - the continued support for Rawat or the "rising mistrust of cults". Both are supported in the article, which was written in the wake of the Jonestown mass suicide. The article specifically details how people inside and outside the DLM were concerned or even frightened by the group. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

emphasizing the superiority of subjective emotional experience over intellect.[86][87][88][89] - does it really say emotional experience in these sources? Can somebody, who really has these books, please look it up? Just to make sure, that this erroneous cliché (OR) comes from those sources, and not from Wiki-editors. Andries?--Rainer P. (talk) 15:32, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see anything in Derks and van der Lans that support the quote but Barret says "The experience is on individual, subjective experience rather than on a body ofd dogma, and in its Divine Light days the movement was sometime criticized for this stressing of emotional experience over intellect. The teaching could perhaps best described as practical mysticism". Again, Barret doesn't criticize followers, he says the "movement was sometimes criticized". And I can't see any basis for the claim "emphasizing the superiority of subjective emotional experience over intellect". Leaving out the previous sentence ("The experience is on individual, subjective experience rather than on a body ofd dogma,) also distorts the meaning as the following sentence talks about "this" stressing, referring to the previous sentence. I'll add some material.Momento (talk) 21:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, "written the wake of the Jonestown mass suicide". Guilt by association. Just like interviewing people who work in very tall buildings after "9/11". Typical tabloid. The LA Times has written dozens of articles about Rawat, to only take just one quote from one article and ignore all the other material that the LA Times has written is a "conjectural interpretation". The LA Times is a newspaper, not a peer reviewed academic paper and to use it to make a general comment on the opinion of entire country is simplistic. It is also far too US centric and LA centric, did the rest of the world have a "rising mistrust of cults" in 1979? The headline says it all "Malibu Guru", LA's own. Momento (talk) 20:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is not "tabloid" or "gossip" to say that the Jonestown mass suicide colored the perception of new religious movements. It is a fact, amply documented by reliable sources both in general and specifically in regard to DLM. Your "tall buildings" comparison is not apt, because the safety of tall buildingers per se was the least important element of 9/11 for most people. However, an article about national security issues in the United States in this decade would be highly distorted if it did not mention that 9/11 colored the perceptions of Americans concerning terrorism and civil liberties. In the same way, pretending that Jonestown did not shape people's reactions to other new religious movements is a heavy distortion. It doesn't matter whether or not it was ever fair to compare DLM and the People's Temple, just as it doesn't matter whether the threat that resulted in 9/11 justifies warrantless wiretapping. That there is a connection in peoples' reactions is verifiable and encyclopedic. Msalt (talk) 21:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's unacceptable to take an article that is based on interviewing half a dozen people in a small town in America and put in an encyclopedia as if it is a world wide opinion. Since the article calls Rawat "Malibu Guru" and the article canvases the opinion of Malibu residents, we need to change the quote to "despite rising mistrust of cults in Malibu" or remove it entirely.Momento (talk) 21:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Malibu is not just a "small town in America". It is the adopted home town of the subject and incidentally one of the most culturally prominent places in the current age. The subject's neighbors were interviewed and expressed nervousness and fear about the possibility of a repeat of the Jonestown tragedy as did the subject's leading follower. Neighboring Topanga Canyon had already been the site of a previous cult-related killing. Personally, I think the subject has disposed himself well in transitioning from the 1970s to the current time. He was once lumped with leaders and groups that have come to worse ends since then. Based on clear and reliable sourcing, it's correct to say that the atmosphere in the U.S. towards unusual spiritual sects changed after Jonestown, that the subject's organization and presentation changed partly in reaction, and that the subject and his organization have survived without any notable scandals. The criticisms of the subject (greed, vapidness) are relatively minor compared to those of many other spiritual leaders, living or dead, of the modern era. Also, due to financial difficulties (see below) the group may have had to retrench regardless of the anti-cult movement. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The LATimes article is fine. I don't see anything wrong in the way LATimes reporter Mark Forster wrote the article. He interviewed premies in Malibu, the home of Rawat who said things to Forster that were typical premie comments at the time. He quoted from a reliable source about what Bob Mishler said in his UPI interview about DLM/Rawat. He interviewed residents of the Malibu community to get their opinions about the subject. Then he contacted DLM's spokesperson, Joe Anctil, in Denver for comments, which Joe Anctil took full advantage of by responding to Forster -- Anctil is quoted in the article. Forster even offered to give Rawat an interview but was told that Rawat doesn't talk to the press anymore. I think that Forster used all of the basic principles of newspaper reporting and covered his bases professionally by using credible sources and providing the view of various people who were in some way connected with Prem Rawat at the time. California residents were particularly disturbed and concerned by the Jonestown Massacre because Jones's was based in San Francisco. Articles in newspapers like the LATimes are not printed in a vacuum at the whim of a reporter, but go through fact-checking and source checking in order to avoid legal problems. The article provides quite an accurate snapshot of 1979 America's concern about cults post-Jonestown. Given that the LATimes is a very reliable source, and the article itself is well-sourced and doesn’t distort the facts, I don't think any complaints about the article are warranted. Sylviecyn (talk) 14:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since the article says that the US following has fallen, it is clear that it is the Malibu following that "Malibu guru has maintained". As for fact checking, they couldn't even get the year he arrived right and credit him with two children in 1974 when he had none.Momento (talk) 00:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A difference in Rawat's arrival year is minor and may be correct if the reporter is referring to when Rawat arrived in the U.S. The article isn't about that subject, it's about concern about a cult leader's influence on young people. But, what's interesting is Anctil's spin on Rawat's lack of leadership of premies because at the same time Actil spoke to the LATimes's reporter in early January, 1979, the Denver DLM IHQ was gearing up to move to Miami Beach in early 1979 with Maharaji, including Anctil, who ran the premie travel agency AITTA, which was conveniently located in an adjoining office space to DLM headquarters on Alton Rd., Miami Beach. By April, 1979 I was transferred to Miami to work at DECA, of which Rawat had total power and control, including over the hundreds of DLM ashram premies who by summer, 1979 had been transferred from their local communities around the world. And thousands of community premies from around the country and world migrated to Miami.

The article also gives a lot of well-deserved credibiilty to Bob Mishler, who clearly wasn't willing to, and didn't, criticize Maharaji when he left the cult in 1977, but after the Jonestown Massacre Bob did feel compelled to speak out about his concerns surrounding Maharaji's behavior. It's a pity Mishler is now dead and can't respond to the likes of Cagan who has her own hagiographic spin on things and never even interveiwed Rawat for the book which is a biography of the guy. So it's a bit humorous for me to read about Anctil, DLM's public relations person's "spin" about the extent of Rawat's leadership control over premies, when every single thing related to that B707 project was commanded by him and I know this for a fact because I worked in the Design/Engineering Depts. where Maharaji spend the vast majority of his time at DECA every single day, and from which all his orders for the jet flowed. Sylviecyn (talk) 17:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

May I bring the problematic word emotional back to attention? If it cannot be sourced properly, it must be deleted. Subjective is definitely not emotional. In a public interview with Martha Robbles Prem Rawat stated clearly, that the experience of Knowledge has nothing to do with emotions. So the criticism section has to be more precise at this point, as to not accidentally add OR to what appears as a quote. If nobody can clarify, I will delete after a decent term.

BTW: The Reception section is now highly unbalanced. On one side there are quantities, mere numbers, but criticism is elaborated qualitatively. This may be a consequence of the observation that the many content students are not as viciferous as the few detractors, who have an axe to grind. But it gives a distorted overall picture, and there will never be consensus about that. Thoughts?--Rainer P. (talk) 09:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest that a discussion of the "reception" deserves a separate thread. See #Reception Section below. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right, thank you. I place a copy of the edit there.--Rainer P. (talk) 09:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is wrong with this article and How to Solve it

A majoritarian approach to an approved version has prevailed without the questions about the inadequacies of this article being addresses. For all the hyperbole that was ranged against the recent major edit, not a single editor who opposed the edit addressed either of the two fundamental problems that that edit was concerned with – the problem of structure and the inadequate range of references. What the majority of editors seem to want is the least worst option that maintains their preferred take on NPOV content, and are clinging on to it like a security blanket.

Lets be clear – following The Register article the Wikipedia community decided that the Prem Rawat article was not adequate – a revert was made, not on the basis that the revert version was good but that it was a ‘less worse’ place to start from. And even that version was 99.9% the creation of three editors who now persistently oppose change.

The current structure is problematic because it does not allow a more reasoned use of the available references, additionally it ossifies the false conflation of, on the one had Rawat the individual and on the other the history of Rawat’s movement.

Core References

There are six academic references that have been written contemporaneously with, or are based on, first hand study of the conditions and events surrounding Rawat’s life. These are:

Daniel A. Foss; Ralph W. Larkin Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation of Social Causality among the Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji Sociological Analysis, Vol. 39, No. 2. (Summer, 1978), pp. 157-164. Online copy - http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/w_absurd.htm

Daniel A. Foss; Ralph W. Larkin From “the gates of Eden” to “day of the locust” ,Journal Theory and Society ISSN 0304-2421 (Print) 1573-7853 (Online) Issue Volume 3, Number 1 / March, 1976

Downton, James. Sacred Journeys: The Conversion of Young Americans to Divine Light Mission, (1979) Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-04198-5. Online extracts - [61]

Galanter, Marc. CULTS: Faith, Healing, and Coercion Oxford University Press, 1989. ISBN 0-195-12370-0 Online extracts - http://www.prem-rawat-bio.org/library/galanter.html

Galanter M, Buckley P, Deutsch A, Rabkin R, Rabkin J. Large Group Influence for Decreased Drug Use: Findings from Two Contemporary Religious Sects American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse Vol 7. 1980 Abstract online - [62]

Price, Maeve The Divine Light Mission as a social organization. Sociological Review, 27, Page 279-296 1979 online copy - [63]

In addition there is Jeanne Messer’s first hand account published in an academic journal Guru Maharaj, Ji and the Divine Light Mission. The New Religious Consciousness, Bellah, Robert and Glock, Charles (Eds.) pp. 52-72 University of California Press (1976) Online copy - [64]

And there is also Stephen Kent’s observational analysis From Slogans to Mantras: Social Protest and Religious Conversion in the Late Vietnam War Era Stephen A. Kent

Other academic works fall into two categories – first there are those comprised of desk based research and analysis, and there are those which a merely cataloguing (encyclopedification) existing published sources. Of the former Pylarzyk’s is perhaps the most comprehensive work but Dupertuis, Derks & Lans (Lans & Derks), Haan, Hummel, Juergensmeyer and Rife all provide valuable reference material. Geaves work is compromised by his failure to acknowledge within the body of his work, his own very direct role in the Rawat movement. The encyclopaedists present a range of problems; errors are frequently repeated from one to another, and the prejudice of original sources is in some circumstances taken as defining fact without any valid reference, Barret’s and Chryssides’ work for instance appears to be very much be ‘after Geaves’ and Hunt seems to be making it up as he goes along. The chronology of the encyclopaedists is often at variance with the work of researchers and with media reports.

Research

Björkqvist.KWorld-rejection, world-affirmation, and goal displacement: some aspects of change in three new religions movements of Hindu origin Encounter with India: studies in neohinduism N. Holm (ed.), (pp. 79-99) - Turku, Finland. Åbo Akademi University Press. Copy online - [65]

Derks, Frans, and Jan M. van der Lans.Subgroups in Divine Light Mission Membership: A Comment on Downton in the book Of Gods and Men: New Religious Movements in the West. Macon edited by Eileen Barker, GA: Mercer University Press, (1984), ISBN 0-86554-095-0 pages 303-308 Copy online - [66]

Dupertuis, Lucy Gwyn Company of truth : meditation and sacralized interaction among Western followers of an Indian Guru Thesis (Ph.D. in Sociology) -- University of California, Berkeley, Dec. 1983 . Bibliography: leaves 335-342 How people recognize charisma: the case of darshan in Radhasoami and Divine Light Mission. Sociological Analysis, 47, Page 111-124. (1986): University of Guam Copy online - [67]

Haan, WimDe missie van het Goddelijk licht van goeroe Maharaj Ji: een subjektieve duiding from the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland: Feiten en Visies nr. 3, autumn 1981. (Dutch language) ISBN 90-242-2341-5 Copy online - [68]

Derks, Frans, and Jan M. van der Lans. Subgroups in Divine Light Mission Membership: A Comment on Downton in the book Of Gods and Men: New Religious Movements in the West. Macon edited by Eileen Barker, GA: Mercer University Press, (1984), ISBN 0-86554-095-0 pages 303-308 Haan, Wim De missie van het Goddelijk licht van goeroe Maharaj Ji: een subjektieve duiding from the series Religieuze bewegingen in Nederland: Feiten en Visies nr. 3, autumn 1981. (Dutch language) ISBN 90-242-2341-5 Copy online [69] Hummel, ReinhartIndische Mission und neue Frömmigkeit im Westen. Religiöse Bewegungen in westlichen Kulturen Stuttgart 1980, ISBN 3-170-05609-3 Juergensmeyer, Mark 'Radhasoami Reality', Princeton Paperbacks ISBN 0-691-01092-7

Kranenborg, Reender Dr. Oosterse Geloofsbewegingen in het Westen ("Eastern faith movements in the West") (1982) (Dutch language) ISBN 90-210-4965-1 Lans, Jan van der and Frans Derks Premies Versus Sannyasins originally published in Update: A Quarterly Journal on New Religious Movements, X/2 (June 1986) Copy online - [70]

David Rife Shabdism in North America Paper presented at the American Academy of Religion's Western Region Conference, Stanford University, March 26, 1982 Copy online - [71]

Given this wealth of material, it is incomprehensible why these sources are not used widely within the article. I have attempted through one edit to move the article in a direction that is academically rich. Reliance upon encyclopaedists in preference to definitive researchers is perverse, but if that is what the majority of editors are insisting upon then I can see no way forward. I suggest editors consider the above sources and then propose how these are to be used, given that my proposed approach is not acceptable to the majority, some other formulation is clearly required. For detailed criticism of the encyclopaedists with which I concur see - [72]

--Nik Wright2 (talk) 14:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense, most, if not all these sources have been used in this and related articles such as Teachings of Prem Rawat, and Divine Light Mission. If there are specific aspects of these sources that have not been used and that could improve this or related articles, you will need to propose them one at a time. Blanket assertions such as Barret, Hunt, Chryssides, following "Geaves, or making it up as they go along, and "encyclopaedists"(sic) being somehow unreliable, will not do, sorry. For a list of all sources used in this article, see Prem_Rawat#References ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, then, Jossi -- do you accept all of these as reliable sources for this article? There are several I don't see on the /Scholars subpage, e.g. Price, Bjorkvist, Rife, Dupertuis, Haan and Kranenborg. Can we add them to the scholars page? I think a consensus set of sources would go a long way toward settling this page down. Msalt (talk) 23:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is also no need to spam-link to the anti-Rawat sites when the material you refer to is already available in a sandbox here at Talk:Prem Rawat/scholars. Any further attempts to spamlink should be considered disruption. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not consider adding links to talk pages in good faith to be disruptive. If it moves the discussion towards consensus it's helpful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the material referred is already available on-wiki, there is no reason to link-spam this page, Will. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:13, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The linked page contains commentary that I don't see here. I don't see the harm in linking to it. I don't see any personal attacks on individual WP editors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BLP policy is clear = " Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space".Momento (talk) 00:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NikWright2 just listed a dozen scholarly articles, so what does your comment about "unsourced or poorly sourced" have to do with his list? Msalt (talk) 00:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're talking about linking to the anti Rawat websites as in here [[73]], [[[74]] ]] and [[75]]. These sites are full of "unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material". Just because it links to a page that has "sourced material" from a "reliable scholar" is no excuse. I could set of a web site with 99 pages of "unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" and have one page of "Gordon Melton" to link to. Having a few pages of "sourced material" in a sea of "unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" doesn't remove the need to follow BLP policy on "unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material" and "external links".Momento (talk) 01:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please indent your comments properly. Failing to indent is a sign of disruptive editing. These links go directly to reproductions of scholarly articles (except the third, where your link is mistaken. I think you may have put HTM instead of HTML.)There is no added material at all. They don't even have links to anything on those pages except a bibliography. I see nothing unsourced or poorly sourced -- in fact, the only things ON those pages are reliable sources. You aren't even claiming that these are not reliable sources. It looks like you simply object to any source that is critical of Rawat. That has no basis in BLP. In any case, why don't we just add the full text of each to the /Scholars sandbox, and then we won't need these links? Msalt (talk) 01:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could you direct me to the page that says "Failing to indent is a sign of disruptive editing". The pages linked are part of sites that violate BLP. And, in fact, Galanter and Downton are not critical of Rawat. Why don't you add the full text to the scholars page and that will certainly save us linking to sites that violate BLP.Momento (talk) 02:06, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gladly -- [Wikipedia:Tendentious Editing]. "Here are some hints to help you recognise if you or someone else has become a problem editor: ... tendentious editors often do not indent their talk page comments. While threading discussions (by indenting your replies to others' posts) is not strictly required, it is standard practice and highly recommended since it makes discussions easier to follow. Failing to do so may be interpreted as inexperience with Wikipedia conventions at best, and as inconsiderateness or arrogance at worst." Msalt (talk) 03:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've didn't know this.Momento (talk) 06:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. It's a good policy. The whole thing is worth reading. Msalt (talk) 07:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All relevant issues seem to have been covered by other editors so I will not respond to any of the individual points made above . I do note that Jossi, Momento and Rumiton have approached this yet again in what looks like a "no surrender" mode. Msalt's suggestion that In any case, why don't we just add the full text of each to the /Scholars sandbox, and then we won't need these links? seems eminently sensible. I remain unconvinced that the article can be improved without a major edit to effect essential structural change but I look forward to other editors creating text that introduces a greater breadth of references. Despite claims to the contrary I had, and have, no interest in editwaring. I will not for the present make any edits to the article and I will not comment here until other editors present new text that introduces an increased range of academic references. My draft article remains at User:Nik Wright2/ Rawat balanced sources for anyone who may find it useful, and at the risk of being accused further of 'spamming' I do believe the criticism at [76] is relevant. I did consider copying it to my sandbox to reference here, but it is an independent criticism of Wikipedia and surely it is right to acknowledge that.--Nik Wright2 (talk) 12:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong discussion

Aside from links and indents, are there any comments on the material Nik posted above - #What is wrong with this article and How to Solve it? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Jossi said it all, we need to look at the individual suggested edits. A problem I have with blanket-accepting the proposed sources is that many of them, particularly the Dutch scholars, are prominent members of Protestant churches, writing for their own congregations in language intended to affirm the Christian world view. It is to be expected that they will find the Sant Mat philosophy offensive and idolatrous. A comparable example might be to quote the opinion of Pope Benedict in an article on Communism, or the opinion of the President of China on the Dalai Lama. They may well make some valid points, but you would expect them to have a biased and unencyclopedic understanding of the subject. I also would like this article to find some stability, and to pay respect, as far as possible, to all those whose lives have been affected by Prem Rawat. Accepting sources like these will only inflame the situation. Rumiton (talk) 12:49, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the first of the sources, Worshiping the Absurd, by Foss and Larkin. Its main thrust is to analyse the state of mind of the followers of Rawat, and how their attachment to him, in the authors' view, solved the psychological dilemma they found themselves in when the sixties' youth movement fizzled out. Some attention is also paid to DLM structures mimicking some of the same structures that the counterculture had judged to be inimical to people's well-being. Apart from some general references to Rawat's contradictory behaviour, held by followers to reflect the contradictory nature of the world in general, I did not really find anything that in my view would make a key contribution to the biographical part of this article. I could imagine the sections "Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji?" and "Social Causality and Truth Within: Grace and Lila" to be used for the criticism sections here and in the articles on DLM and Prem Rawat's teachings, as part of the round-up of published criticism, but with clear attribution (i.e. naming the authors). Any views? Jayen466 14:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Then again, Jayen, the Prem Rawat article had no mention of the fact that Millenium '73 was in many ways a major failure until I added facts from Foss and Larkin piece (since fleshed out with other sources.) So it already has made a major contribution to the biographical part of the article. In fact, excerpts from Foss and Larkin were already on the /Scholars subpage here, though for some reason the material about Millenium '73 was left out.

I will fill in that and other gaps there and add other scholarly articles as suggested, as time permits. As I've said, having a common base of high quality sources available to us all will be an excellent starting point for building consensus. Msalt (talk) 23:08, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Granted. :-) I had not really registered that this information was not in the article, so well done for noticing and adding it. Jayen466 01:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Endeavors can only fail by not achieving their goals. Millenium '73 failed to make money, but that was never an expectation. A free-admission program cannot make money. Regarding attendance, I think if Prem Rawat himself said "the goal of this event is to have 100 000 people here", then it could be seen as a failure, as only 20 000 - 35 000 showed up, but I don't think he did that. The expectations of arriving ETs and the levitating stuff are symptomatic of the 70s in America (have we all forgotten how truly weird they were?) and not connected with Prem Rawat's stated aims at all. Rumiton (talk) 09:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone is welcome to their opinions. For the article, we can add the subject's opinion that he was pleased with the event and the press reports that it met the low end of attendance predictions, didn't live up to the earthshattering hype, and left the groups deeply in debt. If there are other opinions in reliable sources we should add those too. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to me that the "earth-shattering hype" was largely a grassroots phenomenon. Unless a very good source links Prem Rawat with the out-there predictions, they have no place in an article about him, except perhaps tangentially. Rumiton (talk) 10:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We should assume that the subject's spokespersons, including Rennie Davis, were speaking for him. Even if a reporter finds a random follower and asks them for a quote that's still an indication of how the event was perceived by the subject's followers. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re quoting the spokespersons, I can certainly see that as being a normal assumption, but we have to remember the subject's age and background. When Millenium '73 happened he was still only 15, an adolescent. This is an extraordinary story, and ordinary standards can not be rigidly applied. Here was an Indian boy, still learning English, coming from a traditional Sant family and entering a foreign world, trying to bring the best of his upbringing and understanding with him. I recall there were many adults around who were happy to explain to the world what Prem Rawat meant to say. Some of them were, frankly, unrepentant hippies and drug-crazed lunatics. Comments made by attendees can certainly be mentioned in the article, providing their remarks are in broad agreement with reputable sources. (See preceding sentence.) Rumiton (talk) 11:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While the story is remarkable Wikipedia has so many extraordinary stories that there's a certain ordinariness to them. In this case, the subject had been declared the "Perfect Master" several years earlier, and just six months later he would be declared an adult and get married. In any case, if we have sources that say his spokesmen weren't speaking for him then we can add that bit. The nature of his following is also interesting though that may be an organizational issue better suited for the DLM article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 12:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No WillBeBack, we can't assume "the subject's spokespersons were speaking for him" all the time. When asked by a reporter at Millennium - Why is there such a great contradiction between what you say about yourself and what your followers say about you? Rawat answered - Well, why don't you do me a favor.. . why don't you go to the devotees and ask their explanation about it?" Momento (talk) 12:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so then we can use that source to say that reporters questioned the contradictions between what Rawat and his spokesmen were saying. If I've been reading them correctly, it appears that followers, including spokesman Davis, were saying that Rawat was God, while Rawat was saying that he wasn't God. There may have been other contradictions as well. Let's see what the sources say. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hold on, now. Sometimes Goom Rodgie said that he wasn't God, but that his Knowledge was God. The song medley called "Arti" includes the line "Satguru IS eternal Knowledge." Sometimes Goom Rodgie went on for quite a while describing the powers of Guru Maharaj Ji. In 1984 (highly relevant, here) George Orwell defined "doublethink" as:

"To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which canceled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget, whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again, and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety; consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink."

In fact, society, in general, regards Prem Rawat (appropriately) as a cult leader. This article does not reflect that fact. Prem Rawat is a controversial figure. This article does not reflect that fact. In fact, if you go here: http://prem-rawat-talk.org/forum/ and browse posts, you can learn quite a lot. The premie axis here would tell you that this is a "hate site." In fact, it's a recovery site for cult casualties. There is actually one ex-premie there who probably hates Prem Rawat. She was so dedicated that she always set a place for him at her table in case he turned up. When she figured out that he was deceiving her, she never recovered. Since premies were told not to tell each other about their own experiences, and since some things were kept secret, we're all in a process of self-discovery there. Wowest (talk) 09:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most of "society" has never heard of Prem Rawat, positively or negatively. Prem Rawat didn't write Arti, it is sung by millions in India today, has been for a very long time, and describes the traditional Guru-Shishya relationship which is considered the basis of spiritual progress for Hindus. I believe if you care for the person you describe, you might recommend that she seek professional help. The secrets you describe did not exist. There is no "doublethink." What there is, is a difficulty in putting into words an experience that language did not evolve to describe, especially the English language. Stop ranting. Rumiton (talk) 11:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reception Section

The reception section was edited to summarize the Randi source as follows: "To James Randi, Rawat was an overweight teenager.[90]" In my opinion, this is a trivializing and highly distorting bit of synthesis. There is no way you could read Randi's piece -- available in its entirety [here] -- and find that to be a fair summary. Furthermore, it distorts the source in a way that is insulting to Prem Rawat. I propose the following as a better summary:

"To James Randi, Rawat's 'Knowledge' consists of four simple 'sensory illusions.' "

Thoughts? Msalt (talk) 22:18, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The whole Randi article is an insult. In 1993, a jury found that Randi's claim regarding Eldon Byrd was defamatory. In 1990, Uri Geller sued Randi over statements Randi had made, the judge ruled Geller's favor. No serious encyclopedia or scholar would include any of Randi's comments.Momento (talk) 23:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Randi makes a living out of that kind of stuff... and the weight of his opinion is questionable, in particular as relating to he flippant manner in which he writes about such subjects. If we use that source at all, your proposed wording could go in the article Teachings of Prem Rawat, although we will placing his opinion alongside respected scholar's and I am not so sure that is a good thing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have stated on more than one occasion that I consider Randi to be a less than ideal source, which I would like to see replaced. In the meantime though, I strongly feel that the "overweight teenager" edit was highly distorting as well as derogatory to Prem Rawat. I welcome anyone who can do the work to find a better summary of the criticism of Rawat, and think it would be a wonderful mark of good faith if someone like Ruminton or Momento did. In the meantime, though, after a bit of time for more input, I will probably follow Jossi's (sort of) recommendation as incremental progress. At least this version is more substantive. Msalt (talk) 00:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If Randi is a less than ideal source, why don't you demonstrate your good faith and remove him. BLP policy is clear - "Be very firm about the use of high quality references".Momento (talk) 01:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MSalt, thanks for posting the link to Randi's writing, which I had not read in its entirety before. It is libellous garbage and sensationalist, tabloidal gossip, written contemptuously towards both Prem Rawat and his students. There is my revert for the day. Rumiton (talk) 03:00, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for a summary of criticism of Rawat. There are two main criticisms. One is that his teachings are simplistic and lacking in "intellectual content". Scholars who make this criticism are demonstrating an abysmal ignorance of Rawat's roots. Most scholars claim Rawat's teaching come from the Sant school in India and Sants "dismiss all religious ritual and dogma and instead emphasize the possibility of a direct experience of God, whom they claim "dwells in the heart". They express their teaching in vernacular verse, addressing themselves to the common folk in oral style. They referred to the "Divine Name" as having saving power, and dismissed the religious rituals as having no value". Criticizing Rawat for teaching a "direct subjective" experience instead of a "dogma", is like Christians criticizing Muslims for not eating pork. The second criticism is Rawat leads a "sumptuous lifestyle". This criticism is usually made by Christian scholars who are woefully ignorant of the guru/disciple role and their own Christian teachings. The same criticism was made about Jesus when Mary Magdalen was washing his feet with expensive oil, Jesus replied "the poor will be with you always, but I won't".Momento (talk) 04:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and remember who was that critic? Judas Iscariot, of course, of all people...--Rainer P. (talk) 15:08, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added more highly reliable sources, as requested, and a couple of important details about the Millenium '73 event. I am also concerned that the long paragraph about whether Rawat considered himself divine or not disrupts this narrative. I am moving it to the reception section. Msalt (talk) 05:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Reception section is now highly unbalanced. On one side there are quantities, mere numbers, but criticism is elaborated qualitatively. This may be a consequence of the observation that the many content students are not as vociferous as the few detractors, who have an axe to grind. But it gives a distorted overall picture, and there will never be consensus about that. Thoughts?--Rainer P. (talk) 09:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The section is pretty short and the critical material appears limited to a short paragraph that mostly deals with Mischler. Since Mischler's involvement and comments were in the 1970s, it would make sense to deal with them chronologically. I think we can expand the coverage of Mischler slightly to actually describe his criticisms neutrally. The material in that section should be overviews of the person. The movement is covered in the DLM/EV/TPRF articles, so detailed membership numbers should be in those articles along with any criticism or praise directed at them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with Will. Reception is not a Criticism section, and I prefer having contrasting views presented throughout the article, not lumped into one section anyway. I certainly don't agree with Rainer P. that it is imbalanced against Rawat. And I think we CAN reach consensus, as we have been steadily doing to great effect just lately. I have a concern that the quote about Mishler's criticism having no effect is an example of WP:SYN synthesis, finding a source to make an argument. It is presented as a refutation of Mishler that his criticism didn't hurt the movement. By the way, Momento,

I have some material in Peace is Possible about Mishler.Momento (talk) 13:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Peace is Possible is not a reliable source and by consensus is being used only for non-controversial points. I kinda doubt that anything about Mishler will fall into that category. We have set a very high standard for sources on this page, and should be consistent. Msalt (talk) 02:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Leaving India section

I am concerned that the section titled "Leaving India" presents a highly imbalanced view of the "Millenium '73" festival, minimizing the failure of the occasion drastically. I am adding the following text paraphrased from the Foss & Larkin article, which has already been accepted here as a reliable source. "Though Mission officials predicted that 100,000 people (as well as extra-terrestrials) would attend, actual attendance was no more than 35,000, incurring a debt of over $1 million." Msalt (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"extra-terrestials"? lol! I think that there are many other sources that address the "Millenium" attendance, and the losses incurred. We ought to present all these competing viewpoints, not only Foss.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is no secret that the Mission has overspent in its brief history and has run up some monumental debts. The guru's millennium celebration at the Houston Astrodome in 1972 left the group sadly in arrears in making payments on debts it incurred at that time. Anctil says at one time the Mission owed more than $650,000 but had been able by late 1976, to reduce that debt to $80,000. Carroll Stoner and Jo Anne Parke.All Gods Children, ISBN 0801966205

After a spectacular beginning in North America, the Mission suffered a major setback in November 1973 It rented the Houston Astrodome for “Millennium 73,” an event celebrating the birthday of Maharaj Ji’s father and designed to announce the beginning of a thousand years of peace and prosperity. The event failed; attendance was minuscule. The Mission was left with a $600,000 debt which required it to cut its staff and programs.J. Gordon Melton Encyclopedic Handbook of Cults in America (New York/London: Garland, 1986; revised edition, Garland, pages 141-145

I would suggest you summarize these sources, and remove the comment about "extra-terrestrials"... Foos & Larkins got the numbers wrong as well as that silly factoid.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is the book "All God's Children" scholarly? Amazon.com describes it as a "mass market paperback." Melton, while accepted here by consensus, is a tertiary source which is always less favored than a secondary source such as Foss and Larkin. Msalt (talk) 05:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:V policy says - "Exceptional claims in Wikipedia require high-quality reliable sources". An exceptional claim is a "surprising or apparently important claims not covered by mainstream sources" or "claims that are contradicted by the prevailing view within the relevant community, or which would significantly alter mainstream assumptions, especially in science, medicine, history, politics, and BLPs". If such sources are not available, the material should not be included". You'll need to find some corroborative sources for "extra-terrestrials, $1 million and 35,000 attendees". I have reverted this undiscussed "exceptional claim" until Msalt can come up with some support for it.Momento (talk) 04:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, do you approve of this wiki-lawyering? (and unilateral reversion of a reliably sourced statment?) Msalt (talk) 07:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Msalt, you unilaterally inserted it without discussion and WP:VER says it shouldn't be included.Momento (talk) 08:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Momento, all editors involved in this page have added material unilaterally without prior discussion. Are you saying that what you, I, and everyone else has done is no longer acceptable? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I created a discussion section for this single sentence before I added it to this article, and was working toward a consensus improved version with Jossi when you reverted it on a very thin pretext, Momento. I am going to modify it based on Jossi's suggestions, adding additional references though I don't think "All Gods Children" has been shown to be reliable yet. It does not appear to be a scholarly source. I am sticking to either scholarly sources or top-level mainstream news sources, mostly the New York Times and Los Angeles Times, which by the consensus on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard are reliable. Here is my reworded version -- suggestions always welcome (as opposed to wikilawyered reverts). I am leaving the part about extraterrestials off for now, to be discussed below. The first fragment I plan to append to the previous sentence:

"designed to usher in “a thousand years of peace.” Though Mission officials predicted that 100,000 people would attend the free event, actual attendance was estimated at 25,000 by followers and 10,000 by police. The Mission incurred a debt estimated variously from $600,000 to over $1 million as a result, severely damaging its finances. ^[1] ^[2] ^[3] ^[4] Msalt (talk) 14:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a matter of finding the best source, you need " high-quality reliable sources", that corroborate F & L's claim that "Mission officials predicted".Momento (talk) 06:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Msalt: I think you got the quote pretty much right the way you had it. Prem Rawat's prize spokesman, Rennie Davis (of the Chicago Conspiracy Trial), ran around the country during the summer of 1973, repeatedly making the same specific claims, in city after city, that (1) 144,000 people would be at the Astrodome, (2) A huge mothership would descend over the Astrodome and lift the structure, with all inside, off the planet. The further embellishment was sometimes added that, at the same time, a massive earthquake along a newly discovered fault would destroy New York City. This was undoubtedly documented in many well-regarded newspapers, but I don't have time to go to the university to look through microfilms this week. But, yes, someone would have to be present to operate the space craft, so the "extra-terrestrials" claim appears to be valid. Since this particular claim, while totally accurate, reflects badly on the Guru, you can expect the "premie axis" of Momento, Rumiton and Jossi to attempt to whitewash it, which is just what they have been doing here, and to call it "defamatory," or "exceptional," which it clearly is not, since it's the simple, unvarnished truth.

Wowest (talk) 07:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I googled Rennie Davis and 144,000 and got one hit. Wowest talking on the anti-Rawat forum.Momento (talk) 08:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That isn't surprising. I may be the only cult critic here who actually talked to Rennie Davis during 1973, and there was no Internet at that time. Since Prem Rawat is such a relatively minor figure, one would not expect much about him on the Internet from 35 years ago. Wowest (talk) 08:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Funny thing, though, Momento, I just Googled 144000 Houston "Rennie Davis" and got three hits -- an article by Francine du Plexis Gray from the New York Review of Books dated December 13, 1973 and an article by Ken Kelley from Ramparts, February 1974, both preserved on ex-premie.org at http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/nyrb7374.htm and http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/overthehill.htm as well as a quotation from Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative Spirituality, here: http://books.google.com/books?id=vnAk9WefhfwC&pg=PA150&lpg=PA150&dq=144000+Houston+%22Rennie+Davis%22&source=web&ots=Od7_VpsdvY&sig=tvG0duO6eUdRsUjDdERE_vydSd8&hl=en#PPA64,M1

Wowest (talk) 08:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Loved the bit about the Venutians.Momento (talk) 09:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are plenty of sources that say that 100,000 attendees were predicted and that only 20,000 appeared. There's a source referencing the expectation of UFOs arriving, and even one saying the remaing 80,000 seats were purportedly filled with invisible spirits. There are also sources for the debt after the event. This is perhaps the most important single event of the subject's life in the U.S., so we should get this right. Let's see what the sources, aside from those already cited, say:

His followers say they expect anywhere from 20,000 to 135,000 people in Houston for the Thursday through Saturday "millenniiim '73" at which Maharaj Ji promises to offer a practical way to bring peace to the world. Thirty chartered jetliners will lift the Guru's followers in from all over the world for the festival which 400 staff members of the Divine Light Mission have been working on since summer.
- "Throngs To Seek 'Peace'", AP EXPRESS/NEWS—Sunday, November 4, 1973
It has budgeted $500,000, and expects to spend twice that, for a three-day climax to the guru's world tour in November, "Millenium 73." The mission has rented the Houston Astrodome for $75,000 and booked 35,000 beds in hotel rooms. To help finance the convocation, disciples have been visiting 400 millionaires. Each receives a lush, vinyl-covered looseleaf notebook as a fund raising proposal.
- "The guru who minds his mother" Malcome N. Carter, AP THE STARS AND STRIPES, November 4, 1973
The fact that he has found an audience, albeit a small one--early promises that 100,000 devotees would be on parade in Houston were hasitly decalred inopterative when only 20,000 actually appeared--suggests that the search for peace, both individual and collective, beguin in the 1960s, has yet to be satisfactorily resolved.
- "Houston's Version of Peace in Our Time" GREGG KILDAY, Los Angeles Times Nov 25, 1973 pg. S18
When word was passed that extraterrestrial creatures in U.F.O.'s would be visiting the Astrodome, it was Bal Bhagwan Ji who said, "If you see any, just give them some of our literature." A space was left in the Astrodome parking lot in case any flying saucers wished to land.
- "Oz in the Astrodome" Ted Morgan, New York Times, December 9, 1973
The Devine [sic] Light Mission Inc., church of the Guru Maharaj Ji, has been sued by the Astrohall Stadium Corp, which claims the misions owes it $14,500 in unpaid rent...Joe Anctil, spokesman for the Denver-based mission, said the church has tried to pay $14,500 amount by monthly installments of $3,000.
- "Guru's church sued for unpaid rent" AP
In fact, "Millenium '73" turned out to be a bust. Contrary to expectations of some communicants, the Astrodome did not take off into outer space. On a more practical level, the cost of the event was estimated at $1 million, and it attracted an audience of fewer than 20,000.
- "TV: Meditating on Young Guru and His Followers" John J. O'Connor, New York Times, February 25, 1974
A Houston photographer and film producer said Wednesday that the Divine Light Mission, headed by the 16-year-old Guru Maharaj Ji, still owes him $22,000 for a film produced last year. A spokesman for the mission disputed the producer's allegation...Producer Don MrClendon said he has received nothing but negative responses to his claims that the mission still owes him money for the film. However, Carole Grcenberg the mission's director of information services, said McCIendon actually owes the mission $3,000 in unreturned overpayments. She called McCiendon's accusations "unjustified" and "completely unwarranted."
- "$22,000 From Guru Still Sought", AP CORPUS CHRISTI TIMES, Thurs., May 30, 1974
Beneath the spiritual bliss of the guru Maharaj Ji's Denver-based Divine Light Mission lie more than $300,000 in unpaid bills and a never ending fund drive, according to the guru's former financial analyst...Meanwhile, other mission bills go unpaid. For example, Millenium '73, the mission's huge festival at the Astrodome, was paid for only after mission equipment and files were repossessed....He said donations, averaging $100.000 a month at the height of the guru's 1973 recruitment, now struggle to reach $40,000. The deficit, according to Garson, has resulted in a form of check kiting where checks are written on funds not necessarily available at the time.
- "Growing Pile of Unpaid Bills Beneath Guru's Spiritual Bliss", Deborah Frazier, UPI, March 23, 1975, Lincoln, Neb., Sunday Journal and Star
DENVER (AP) - His organization claimed 6 million followers when Guru Maharaj Ji was 15...That was four years ago, and times have changed. The faithful now number 1.2 million, according to a spokesman for his Divine Light Mission. Donations have fallen off and the Church is retrenching. Its printing business is gone and some of the property in Denver and other American cities has been sold. The lease has been dropped on the computer that once kept track of the pudgy teen-ager's following. Some of the more extravagant claims about the guru's divinity also have been dropped. Once, Maharaj Ji was known as "Lord of the Universe" and "Perfect Master" to his devotees. Now, Joe Anctil, the 43-year old spokesman for the guru, describes him as "the point of inspiration for all of us." ...As devotees moved out of ashrams, their weekly paychecks, previously turned over to the guru's treasury, were missed. Donations fell from more than 1100,000 a month to 70 per cent of that, although Anctil said 3,000 regular donors remain. The declining income forced a decision to change operations.
- "Declining donations dim Divine Light Mission" AP Nov. 22, 1976
In 1973, the mission sponsored a festival designed to attract 100,000 faithful and signal 1,000 years of peace. Only 20,000 showed up and the group felt it was being portrayed poorly in the media.
- "Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" MARK FORSTER Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979; pg. 3
The same year, the Guru Maharaj Ji rented the Houston Astrodome for a rally, setting aside parking-lot space for flying saucers. They didn't show. So didn't 80,000 of the up-to-100,000 people the 15-year old Perfect Master had expected.
- "A LOOK BACK AT THE '70S" HENRY ALLEN, Los Angeles Times Dec 16, 1979; pg. K30

These are just excerpts from a portion of the sources covering "Millenium '73". Based on a reasonable evaluation of weight it may deserve a section of its own. The last reference is a testament to the event's overall cultural significance - it was included in a review of the decade of the 1970s. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the extraterrestrials claim should be taken with a pinch of salt. We are talking the early seventies here, a time when I believe flowery language, interspersed with "man ...", was pretty common, including among the demographic herein concerned, I suspect. At any rate, if one of Rawat's family suggested that "If you see any [extraterrestrials], just give them some of our literature" and people left a space in the parking lot (!) for UFOs, this to me has more philosophical affinity with Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure than with the Book of Revelation. We shouldn't make it sound like the latter. Jayen466 12:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course you're right. "Leaving space for the flying saucers" may have been a euphemism for a large open area in the parking lot caused by too-few attendees. Nonetheless, it seems to have been a meme for the event. Let me see if I can find any other sources that mention it.

Also: this splurge of new references is a byproduct of a few hours at the library. As I offered before, if any editor would like copies of the originals I'd be happy to send them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 13:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are four reliable sources attesting to the extraterrestrials claim. I can understand why the claim would be embarrassing today, but I don't see any evidence to counter this strong evidence that the clain was made. Does anyone have any? Or do you have a different reason than sourcing for not including this? Msalt (talk) 14:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do any of the sources say that Rawat made the claim, or instructed others to make it? Jayen466 15:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I remember the hype, though I did not attend the event. I would be very surprised if any reputable source attributes any of it to Prem Rawat. Rumiton (talk) 15:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have never, ever, heard Prem Rawat speak of "invisible beings", "extra-terrestrials", or any other such nutty ideas. As for the sources above, taken together with the scholarly sources, simply requires saying that there were expectations of 100,000 people; only 35,000 (or 20,000) attended; that it was covered in the media; that the DLM lost 600,000 USD, and that the organization suffered a setback because of all that (there is a source saying teh Rawat was pleased with the event.) Note, that as it pertains to this biography, that is all is needed. This affected the DLM, refers to the DLM, and refers to his adherents, so expanding on this can be done at Divine Light Mission. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Were you around the subject in 1973? That appears to be the relevant year. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good points all around. Until we see clear evidence that Rawat himself discussed extraterrestrials, I think the wise move (given BLP) is to leave it out. Note, I have seen at least one reliable source quote Rawat directly that the Astrodome would be levitated during the event (another popular meme of the time, cf levitating the Pentagon), but again, these kinds of colorful details should require something more emphatic. Personally, I think even if it was undeniable that Rawat threw out such a claim in passing, say we had film of him predicting levitation in a heated moment of rhetoric, it might well be still inappropriate for an encyclopedic article. On the other hand, if he had made a big point of it, then it would certainly belong. Msalt (talk) 22:36, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Lord of the Universe" -- I am removing the claim that this documentary is satirical -- the only source given (IMDB) says nothing of the sort, so it clearly constitutes OR. I am also adding an article about the documentary from the LA Times, which notes the evenhandedness of the film. It's a more reliable source than a website like IMDB. Msalt (talk) 14:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just letting you know that the movie site listed as ref 29 has it listed in the genre of comedy/parody, satire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.16.134.154 (talk) 20:18, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is an obvious satire. 15:37, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

We have very high standards for sources in this article. To be consistent, I will remove the "All Movie Guide Website" since it is unsigned, lists no sources, and shares many of the other flaws that external websites have been criticised for here. We have no way to know that anyone connected with the website has even watched the movie. It is far less reliable than a contemporary review in the Los Angeles Times. I will look for additional quality sources as well.

This documentary actually has a sigificant place in the history of film, in that it was one of the first to use the (then-new) portability and inexpensiveness of video to photograph in ways that would be impractical on film, yet was produced with (then-unheard of) high production value for video. It is firmly in the cinema verite movement; any humor (or pathos) in the film would by design come from the subject, not the filmmakers. The LA Times compliments the film for its even-handedness. Msalt (talk) 22:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The cover of the LOTU claims that Rawat said that Asrtrodome was going to levitate but there is no evidence of him saying anything about it in the video other than some person saying "I would like to bet anyone who wishes to make some 'green energy' that by November 15, the Houston Astrodome will physically separate from the planet which we call Earth and will fly". In other words, a beat up. As for the idea that Millennium was "perhaps the most important single event of the subject's life in the U.S.", not by a long shot. But Millennium was undoubtedly the "most important single event of Rawat's mother and Bal Bhagwan Ji's live's in the U.S". BBJ is widely credited with organizing Millennium and trying to duplicate the million person march to Delhi Gate. In early '74 Rawat asked them to leave his house and they went back to India, never to be reconciled again. In April 74 Rawat became an emancipated minor and was about to have legal and financial independence.Momento (talk) 00:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Millenium '73 generated enormous publicity for the subject. If it isn't "the most important single event of the subject's life in the U.S." then what is? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hang on, now. I have no idea why Momento brought up that phrase -- it's not in the Rawat article. There are many reliable sources for the prediction that Millenium '73 would be the most important event in all of human history, not just Rawat's life. I don't recall off the top of my head though whether that was attributed to Rawat, Rennie Davis (who seemed to be handling most publicity for Rawawt at that time) or to an unnamed spokesperson for the DLM. I know that none of the sources attributed it to Bal Bhagwan Ji; I would have remembered that. But in any case, we're way ahead of ourselves. Let's discuss it only if and when someone wants to add it to the article. Msalt (talk) 00:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rawat actually said that the anniversary of his guru's birth was the most significant event in human history, Millennium was just a celebration of his guru's birthday.Momento (talk) 01:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Source? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since Momento was not able to justify this statement here, and edited it into the article anyway without support, I am removing it from the article. In his edit he adds Melton as a cite. The problems with that are 1) Melton never says it was "just" a celebration of Rawat's father's birthday 2) Melton is a lesser quality, tertiary source -- none of the many other, higher quality sources (so many that Jossi complained) agree 3) it fails common sense. Shri Hans has a birthday every year, but Millenium '73 was a singular event 4) we have another source saying that the occasion was Rawat's 16th birthday, the day after Millenium '73. but there is no solid source for any of these. 5) it's not relevant to the article or to the significance of Millenium '73. Momento himself has already complained of too much detail abou the event, and this is the weakest link. Msalt (talk) 18:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's actually a self-published source (which could be used in the context of this article): can anyone still get hold of "A Festival for the Whole World" from the Special Millenium '73 Edition of the Divine Times, page 2? From a copy of its (probable) content (A LETTER FROM GURU MAHARAJ JI - Bonn, Germany - September 31, 1973): "As you all know Millenium '73 is being prepared for now. This festival has been organized by Divine Light Mission each year since 1967, in the memory of the late Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaji on His birthday. This year the most Holy and significant event in human history will take place in America." --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:57, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But why is it relevant whether the event was related to Shri Hans Ji's birthday or not? The Mission did not promote it as such - the 1,000 years of peace and a plan for peace were the reasons given by DLM spokespeople -- it was not mentioned in any of the accounts of the events themselves, and none of the major effects of the event in terms of publicity, finances, etc. are related to Shri Hans' birthday. As your source notes, there were 5 birthday celebrations before Millenium '73, none of which have been found notable, and presumably there have been 35 since, again with no significance. Msalt (talk) 20:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relevance is inferred from sources (not the other way around) of course.

Anyway, the 1970 "Peace Bomb", which eventually got into the Guinness Book of Records, was also one of these commemorations of Rawat's father [77] (yes, it's all in a footnote currently in the article).

I'm not saying any of this is notable per se, only: if the appropriate sources are presented, there's no impediment to include such info in the Prem Rawat article as far as I'm concerned: at least it gives a view of what Rawat's approach was to the event. If Rawat commented on the anticipation of extraterrestials, and it is recorded in something we consider a reliable source, of course we'd include it too: this is Rawat's bio after all: insight in how this person thinks (or: thought at the time) is generally welcomed as article content. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, if Rawat neither commented on the stage setting at the event, neither on anticipation of extraterrestials, but on the link with the previous commemorations of Hans Ji Maharaj, then the third of these information bits seems the most essential for the Prem Rawat article to me. (all assuming this is what is actually reflected in the reliable sources which I'm not sure about yet) --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No evidence that he did yet, and not that important anyway. Many notable figures don't comment on the things that make them notable, or wish the press and public would discuss an aspect of their life more to their liking. And it doesn't matter if Rawat commented on his staging; he was the one being staged! It was how he was presented, at the moment in his life when the eyes of the world were most upon him, because he and his organization called on everyone to look at him. Clearly lots of thought was given to how he was presented. Msalt (talk) 22:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is that this is an article on Prem Rawat in the first place, if he describes the annual commemoration of his father as "the most Holy and significant event in human history", then this is something noteworthy for Prem Rawat, it gives an insight in his stated priorities at the time (again, if the quoted source appears to be authentic). (Side-note:) As this is about Rawat's stated priorities (which is primary source material) we'd always record it in Wikipedia without further interpretation (unless reliable secondary sources would provide such interpretation), per WP:PSTS. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In principle I don't see a problem with giving both sides -- the way the press saw it, and the way he saw it, based on primary sources. Jayen466 23:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neither do I, of course (might have given the wrong impression). The only point I tried to make was that, for instance, the Prem Rawat article would quite naturally try to give insight in Prem Rawat, and (for instance) the Lord of the Universe article insight in what the makers of that film tried to do. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, that was understood; after all, you brought the primary source. Jayen466 00:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot understand why my sourced reference to the fact that Millennium 73 was a traditional celebration of Rawat's guru was reverted. It is far more important than a "56 piece rock band". It again demonstrates the problem with going "populist". If a dozen newspapers don't mention it, we ignore a scholar that does.Melton is clear "After a spectacular beginning in North America, the Mission suffered a major setback in November 1973 It rented the Houston Astrodome for “Millennium 73,” an event celebrating the birthday of Maharaj Ji’s father and designed to announce the beginning of a thousand years of peace and prosperity". I want to put it back in.Momento (talk) 05:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your single, tertiary source does not deserve equal weight with to a dozen better sources that don't consider that fact significant, however important it may be to you as a devotee. Read your own quote from Melton again -- can you honestly tell me that the most important detail in that quote is the birthday? Vs. 1,000 years of peace and prosperity and major setback? Even Melton mentions it only in passing.

We are discussing the turning point of Rawat's entire career. What does the fact that it fell on his father's birthday contribute to our understanding of this event? There were 6 Shri Hans birthdays before, and 35 since. Both logic and our sources indicate that the birthdayness was not significant. In fact, I am not clear why we talk about his father's birthday two paragraphs earlier in the article, either. Msalt (talk) 07:36, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your opinion that Millennium was the "turning point of Rawat's entire career" is 100% OR. Some would argue that far more important was his break from his family and/or later dropping the Indian traditions. Aren't the sources given, primary sources. They are the first hand accounts of reporters?Momento (talk) 08:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. 2 of the 3 sources are scholarly, both by your favorite source Melton in fact. The third is a "Look Back At the 1970s" in the Los Angeles Times, which found it one of the signal events of the entire decade. Msalt (talk) 08:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Msalt, I hope you will agree that using 26 indents so that the line vanishes altogether and becomes unreadable is Wikipediality gone mad. Here we are back at the margin. Accuse me of disruption if you will. Rumiton (talk) 11:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wanted to point out that Millenium 73 coincided with Prem Rawat's decision no longer to seek the media's help in his work of promulgating Knowledge. So it was the biggest thing they got to know about. In the 1970s there were 2 events after Millenium, in 78 and 79, held in Florida that were longer (over 10 days I think) and attracted quite a few more people, and were, as intended, unreported on. There have been innumerable small and middle sized events all over the world since then, as well as huge Indian events that have attracted hundreds of thousands. I know and agree that we don't have secondary sources to tell us about them, I am just explaining why that is. FYI. And that is why some find the article's focus on Millenium irritating. Rumiton (talk) 11:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, in general I like your approach here. Thank you. Rumiton (talk) 11:03, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the lack of coverage of later events - A) Secret or unreported events are inherently non-notable. If things are secret there are no sources accessible to readers for verification. There's just no way we can cover on the many things the subject does that haven't been reported in reliable sources. B) There is a suggestion that the problems with Millenium '73 exacerbated the growing rift between the subject and his family. Certainly many things of note happened in a short period of time. While the subject's emancipation, marriage, home puchase, U.S. citizenship, etc. are all important and covered in the press, the Millenium '73 event was promised, by the subject himself as well as by followers, to have a global and historic impact. Though the subject's marriage may have had a greater effect on his life, the '73 event is still more notable than his marriage. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the "most important single event of the subject's life in the U.S"? You'd have to ask Rawat that but Millennium sure wasn't it. I would say marriage and children, splitting from his mother and eldest brother, learning to fly etc. would all rate higher for him. Millennium was just one of literally hundreds of events he's talked and there hasn't really been a high point because he's been doing it for 40 years.Momento (talk) 01:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since we can't ask the subject (that would be OR) we have to rely on our reliable sources to establish WP:WEIGHT. Based on the amount of coverage received, the festival appears far more important than the other events you mention. While some organization details may belong in DLM, there's plenty of reporting on the subject's appearance at the festival that should be reflected in this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It may have been considered important by the media but not by scholars. That's the problem with giving importance to what the media thinks is important.Momento (talk) 01:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If it was considered important by the media, it was likely because it had some importance/relevance/interest to people at the time, scholarly or not, and should probably be included, unless of course, it was in the LA Times :) Maelefique (talk) 02:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is clearly considered important by scholars, several of whom mention this event as a major turning point in Rawat's career. Several are cited in the article as it now stands. Msalt (talk) 20:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Melton, who appears to be the gold standard, includes a substantial metnion in a 343-word biographical sketch:

Through the mid-1970s the rapidly developing movement ran into trouble, beginning with its inability to fill the Houston Astrodome in a highly publicized event, Millennium 73.
- "Guru Maharaj Ji." Encyclopedia of Occultism and Parapsychology, 5th ed. Gale Group, 2001. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

A slightly longer, 471-word article has a longer mention:

The movement's early growth phase began to spiral down in November 1973 with "Millennium 73," a gathering at the Houston Astrodome that failed to attract enough people to pay the Astrodome's rental fee. The fiasco also attracted attacks against Maharaj Ji's followers by the anti-cult movement.
- "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

Also mentioned prominently in other scholarly pieces, at least one of which depicts it as a turning point in the history of the movement:

Most of the devotees with whom we spoke reported a significant drop in the number of people receiving knowledge starting from late 1973. This created a condition of financial strain which became critical when Millennium '73, an all-out extravaganza held in the Houston Astrodome where Guru Maharaj Ji was crowned "Lord of the Universe," proved to be an economic flop. Financial problems forced DLM to close their national headquarters located in a downtown Denver office building which housed their state-of-the-art communication, publication, and media operations and which employed several hundred persons. DLM underwent significant organizational and ideological transformations. It no longer projected itself as a movement that would include all of humanity in its membership.
- "New Religious Movements Turn to Worldly Success", KIRPAL SINGH KHALSA, JOURNAL FOR THE SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF RELIGION,
The Divine Light Mission achieved prominence in 1973-74, receiving a substantial amount of coverage in the print and electronic media. Its festival in November 1973 — called Millennium-'?3 — was held in the Houston Astrodome and was the youth culture event of the year. It received coverage by local, national and international press and was the subject of a documentary shown on the public television network.
- "Worshiping the Absurd: The Negation Of Social Causality Among The Followers of Guru Maharaj Ji", Daniel A. Foss, Ralph W. Larkin, Sociological Analysis, 1978, 39, 2:157-164

So it appears that scholars also consider it noteworthy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, and that can be covered in the Divine Light Mission article with a short summary here. All what can/needs to be reported is repeated on all these sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure how best we can split up information between this article and DLM since in the U.S. the DLM was synonymous with the subject. There are a couple of sources that deal extensively with the subeject at the festival - a NYT article and another I can't recall that reported on his press conference. Details about the financial problems should go to DLM, with just a summary here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly this event was highly notable -- scholarly source Foss and Larkin called it "the youth culture event of 1973" -- and sources indicate that this event was the peak of Rawat's fame (to date), at least in the United States. It was pivotal in the history of both Rawat himself and the organization, and so deserves a prominent place in each article. The only question I have is whether there should be an article for the event itself. For now though I think it's best to focus on its description here and in the DLM article. Msalt (talk) 04:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It might be helpful to read Sophia Colliers chapter 12 "Millennium Fever]] in her book Soul Rush. She gives an interesting insider's view of the time leading up to the Millennium program. She's already used as a source in this article. Sylviecyn (talk) 23:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Positive Bias

"Rawat has been criticized for lack of intellectual content in his teachings,[12][13] and for leading a sumptuous lifestyle.[14][15]" Does not amount to criticism, you find more than one line on articles about even the most laudable people. If four sources of criticism are here presently three books and an articles, a section or a page on criticism is certainly achievable. It is clear this article is Heavily biased , ~60kB and only ~20 words of criticism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.11.217.206 (talk) 06:35, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please read more carefully, there is a criticism section. If you can improve it by adding encyclopedic quality material from reputable sources, please do so. Rumiton (talk) 11:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The organizations, here, have apparently always had disparate public and private teachings. Public teachings include statements like "I am not God. My Knowledge is God.... I am just a humble servant of God." Private teachings were promulgated by deniable "premie rumors" and by the lyrics of a song medley called "Arti" which was sung to a picture of the guru in ashrams and premie houses twice a day, in English and/or Hindi, to the light of a ghee wick candle. Private teachings include "Sat Guru gives true Knowledge. Sat Guru is eternal Knowledge. (Arti)" One of the universal "premie rumors" is the statement that "the mind is Satan." This is to some extent documented by a quotation from the Guru's mother, published in 1973, "All my son wants is your fickle, human mind," and by the Guru's printed "Commandment" "Leave no room in your mind for doubt." The Guru was pushing premies to get divorces, give him all of their money and worldly possessions, and move into ashrams several years after he and his mother fired each other, so, again, a balanced article would state that he lived an extravagant lifestyle while demanding poverty on the part of his devotees. It would also point out that when he later closed the ashrams, he did not give any of the residents their money back.

Wowest (talk) 08:14, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All unsourced, and your usual personal reminiscences, Wowest. Is this disruptive editing? Pretty close, I would say. Rumiton (talk) 11:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive editing? That's absurd. Many current and ex-devotees of Rawat have shared their inside knowledge on this Talk page, and I welcome it (provided the writers are reasonably concise and not filibustering.) Obviously it can't be used in the article, since it's OR, but I think it's helpful, for example, in determining whether we are giving undue weight. Msalt (talk) 14:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely not absurd. This is not "inside knowledge." Look at the above contribution point by point and you will find nothing but a quite savage collection of rumours, allegations and gossip. It advances the neutrality of this article not at all. I honestly am starting to wonder if you understand the difference. Rumiton (talk) 15:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All those thing can be proved by reading old 'Divine Times' satsangs, None of those points are 'rumours, allegations and gossip' in fact it seems you are the one trying to mislead. You are fond of threatening us (without good reason) to cease and desist from saying what happened. I won't say the same to you. I don't need to. I am simply too pleased to observe that present company seem to be able to see through your accusations with remarkable equanimity and fairness.PatW (talk) 19:56, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Msalt, with all respect I can muster, you are mistaken. These "testimonies" are totally unacceptable. Or do you want current students to start commenting here about their wonmderful and positive experiences? What is undue weight, it to allow these people to use these pages to disparage the subject of this article, bait other editors, and disrupt the editing process or the discussions we re engaging in. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I'm not looking for "testimonies" or filibusters from either side. But devotees (including yourself) as well as ex-devotees have filled in knowledge that I or other uninvolved editors could not possibly be expected to have, and I welcome it all. That does not mean that I accept or approve of the speeches that Momento and PatW launch into, of course.

But in the example at hand, Wowest is describing a difference in external vs. internal pronouncements that is exactly to the point. I certainly don't take it as face value, I welcome rejoinder by others with similar experience, and of course it can't be used in the article itself. But I hardly consider it "disruptive editing", any more than it was disruptive editing for you to share your experience in [this edit.] I welcome all good faith information. Msalt (talk) 23:43, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good faith information? The mind boggles. Look at it, as I said, point by point.

Private teachings were promulgated by deniable "premie rumors... Is Wowest saying Prem Rawat went around starting "premie rumours" that contradicted his public speeches? There were and less often now, still are premie rumours, most of them were and are absurd. Unless Wowest can prove Prem Rawat starts them he should keep silent on the subject.

...and by the lyrics of a song medley called "Arti" which was sung to a picture of the guru in ashrams and premie houses twice a day, in English and/or Hindi, to the light of a ghee wick candle. Arti is an entirely traditional Hindu devotion to the Guru, performed morning and evening by millions. I have heard it myself sung by the Ganga River, complete with ghee candles. Prem Rawat did not make it up. It is one of the Indian "trappings" he did away with in the early 80s.

One of the universal "premie rumors" is the statement that "the mind is Satan." This is to some extent documented by a quotation from the Guru's mother, published in 1973, "All my son wants is your fickle, human mind," and by the Guru's printed "Commandment" "Leave no room in your mind for doubt." Satan is a Christian concept which Prem Rawat has never used. He certainly did say "Leave no room in your mind for doubt." A different thing altogether.

The Guru was pushing premies to get divorces, give him all of their money and worldly possessions... Really? Who says so? I know plenty of people who had money and were married then (my own parents, for goodness sake) and still are and do, and consider themselves premies.

...and move into ashrams several years after he and his mother fired each other, so, again, a balanced article would state that he lived an extravagant lifestyle while demanding poverty on the part of his devotees. Nonsense. He never "demanded poverty" of anyone. Only ashram premies lived without personal possessions, which was the traditional Indian way of escaping from the burdens of "wordly" responsibility. Another thing he got rid of in about 1983.

It would also point out that when he later closed the ashrams, he did not give any of the residents their money back. He didn't have it. According to sources, the ashrams internationally never achieved more than self-sufficiency. All the money they provided and more was spent on running them. Rumiton (talk) 10:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, you may be right, but I'm going to assume you're a pretty busy guy and you've just missed the larger point here. Rumiton seems somewhat bent on deliberately ignoring it. The point here, referred to by Wowest, made by 129.11.217.206 is that the article is not balanced. I'm not claiming or debating any scientific method here, but this seems a simple enough test; I looked up the first article I could think of for someone who is/was known for their good works. Mother Teresa came to mind. The article there is about 4361 words long. It has criticisms totalling 504 words, for a percentage of 11.5% of the article. That seems reasonable to me, along with the fact that it's already received a WP:GA stamp. Compare that to this article, we have currently 2508 words, and 119 in criticism, leading to 4.7% of the article. Perhaps you, as somewhat of an authority on the matter, would like to contribute to this section for balance, or because of your COI maybe you could just steer me in the right direction to reputable sources that accurately criticize Prem Rawat? Maelefique (talk) 16:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no section on "Criticism" per se and there is substantial material on the article already related to setbacks, family split, and other such issues. All the sources that we have discovered over the years, are available in Prem Rawat#References. I would argue that per policy, an article should not have neither a positive nor a negative bias, rather, Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone, and I believe we are getting there. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, again, you're right (about not wanting to have a bias), and again, missing the point. There is no criticism section in this article, yet even an article on Mother Teresa, which has already passed the test for WP:GA has a criticism section, and it's twice as long (as a percentage of the article) than what is written in this article. To suggest that criticism is covered because he had setbacks and a family split is nonsensical at best, at worst, it's a deliberate attempt to impede the progress of this article. Your suggestion that an article would have some kind of bias if it included a criticism section is equally ridiculous, as per Pope_Benedict_XVI, another article that has passed WP:GA, it also has a criticism section. In fact, it only takes a moment to think that idea through, without a criticism section, you are *clearly* advocating a positive-only bias to this article. If that's the case, ok, fine, but please don't pretend otherwise. Secondly, I asked for your help in finding sources we could find acceptable for this article, regarding valid criticisms, and you point me to Prem_Rawat#References?? A little disingenuous, obviously not helpful, and a little insulting. If you ask me how to change the oil in your car, would you expect me to merely toss you the construction guide for your vehicle? Even if I had a pretty good idea of what you were asking, and I also knew where you could probably find it?Maelefique (talk) 02:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, current students are welcome to come here and discuss these things. In fact if you look on my user page you will see Tim Hain has done exactly that. He distinctly doesn't share your views. You mock the intelligence of all these neutral editors by suggesting they can't (with a little investigation of their own) arrive at sensible conclusions- unless they are protected from hearing testimonies from former followers. (By you and Wiki Lawyering) You and Ruminton's constant push is to limit information. Bring on your student friends and let's see if they have different accounts. Fortunately it's not that hard for sensible impartial people to discern who is telling the truth. It just takes reading between the lines. You and your little group are plainly the ONLY ones who don't want all the information bought to the table for analysis and discussion. What does that tell us?PatW (talk) 19:32, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It tell us that there are some people here that want to use this as a discussion forum, and others that are interested in developing articles. Wikipedia is not a social network platform: it is a communiy of people interested in editing an encyclopdia. You can have your "discussions" and "testimonies" in your talk page, or your blog. But not here, please. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:52, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi's right that this isn't a general purpose discussion forum - all discussion here should be focused on improving the article. Comments which include personal knowledge or recollections, such as "I never heard him say that" or "That matches what I remember", are appropriate and helpful. The main thing is to avoid discussing the subject without reference to the article, or posting anything that's a clear BLP violation. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. That's what I was trying to get at. Thank you. Msalt (talk) 00:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I find this back-slapping over 'understanding the definition of what constitutes relevant discussion' a little insulting, since it is conspicuously aimed at people like myself as if I/we don't 'get' what is appropriate to discuss and in what manner to do so. I assure you I do 'get it' (and have for a long time) and find these condescending 'reminders' from Jossi in particular most unwelcome. Jossi in his usual passive/aggressive manner has actively discouraged people from posting relevant information and their personal experiences and he is still doing that! (see above) He has long held such discussion to be inadmissible and enforced that view as best as his 'position' has allowed. Since we are all agreed that discussion should refer to the article and be germane to that, perhaps Jossi and his like-minded editors could stop chiming in with these irrelevant objections when all I/we have ever done IS supply personal experiences and point towards other factual information relevant to the article (as you recognise is perfectly helpful). God help us if we try to actually edit! Does anyone realise how hostile it feels to have been so consistently resisted for so long and subjected to such repeated fanatical 'WikiLawyering'? To be honest Will, Msalt and Jayen's much more dispassionate way of dealing with this aggressive buffoonery is SO welcome. For the first time I am quite happy to take a back seat while they do an admirable and intelligent job of untangling the impenetrable barrier of nonsense surrounding this subject.PatW (talk) 12:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Teachings Section

Now that I've read a bit more about Rawat, I find the teachings section a bit bland. It doesn't really capture what is unique about him, in my opinion, and so I'd like to suggest two major points that seem to be distinctive and exactly the kind of summary info a good encyclopedia article would contain. I have a bunch of sources, but at this point I'm more interested in working out a consensus summary that every one can agree on. I don't think there is any reason that this would need to be a point of contention. The points are:

1. It seems that a major innovation of Rawat was offering a direct sensory experience of transcendence as captured in the four elements of the Knowledge, as opposed to the more abstract transcendance offered by other religions and spiritual philosophies. A couple of quotes struck me along these lines -- one devotee told a writer “Our Knowledge is not a religion, but an experience.” And Rennie Davis quoted Rawat as saying "“Don’t believe me unless you have proof”.

This is not only a fascinating contrast with the other-worldliness of most religions (and answer to criticisms of them), but it goes a long way to explaining why this teaching would be so popular at that time in world history, a time when many were reclaiming direct experience over highly refined abstraction.

2. The concept of lila, which I understand to be "divine play" or "joking". It seems that many of the contradictions of Rawat that outsiders so quickly jumped on, were seen by many insiders as a form of lila, a joke that they were in on and the outsiders didn't get. This is a big part of what the Foss and Larkin article is about.

It seems to me that even a quick teaching section should include these, and that the article would be much richer and deeper yet NPOV. Thoughts? Msalt (talk) 00:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The "innovation" was in bringing Raj Yoga, which had been honoured in India for centuries, to the west and giving it freely to non-Hindus. Rumiton (talk) 09:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The direct experience aspects is already covered in the Teachings of Prem Rawat article. As for the concept of "lila" that was a remnant from Indian connotations that was referred to during the 70's. It is not part of Prem Rawat's teachings. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again Jossi you are trying to draw attention away from Rawat's past teachings. It WAS a part of Rawat's teachings in as much as he frequently spoke of 'Lila' in his satsangs. PatW (talk) 11:16, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lila means "dance" in Hindi. It is a reference from Hinduism to Krishna dancing and playing with the Gopis, the milkmaids who were Krishna's closest devotees. It is just another of the Indian ideas that Prem Rawat left behind when he internationalised things in about 1982... today of historic interest only. Rumiton (talk) 11:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We have several sources on the importance of lila in Rawat's teaching, from the highest quality scholars and journalists. Do you have any sources that it is no longer used? Otherwise this would be OR. Msalt (talk) 18:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Msalt, you asked for the perspective of involved people, in other words, OR. It would be very unlikely that a scholar looking at Prem Rawat's work today would remark on what had disappeared. They would just describe what currently is. Lila is not. Rumiton (talk) 01:49, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're absolutely right. I do welcome that perspective. However, I have also consistently said that that perspective can't be used directly in the article. We have several highly reliable sources saying that "lila" was a very important concept in the early 1970s, and none saying that it stopped. It seems like, to accurately capture Rawat's teaching, we should address this change, perhaps in the Westernization section if, as was said here, the exit of lila as a key concept is part of that development. But we do need a reliable source. Msalt (talk) 02:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the vanishing of the idea of "lila", that life is a play with the master, is kind of key. I never thought about it. Anyway, I doubt that we will find a source to tell us so. Rumiton (talk) 11:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you agree, Jossi, that the direct experience is a notable aspect of Rawat's teachings? In all good faith, I find it a unique and interesting aspect that belongs in a teaching section here. Do you have any objection to me attempting to reword the section to include it? Msalt (talk) 00:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Read Teachings of Prem Rawat, which is the main article on the subject. If needed, a mention about the direct experience aspects described by the sources availabe, could be used in the summary here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another notable fact is that Rawat has never charged people to learn the techniques. Hearing about Knowledge, materials to understand and prepare, and receiving the techniques are all free. Rawat receives no money from these activities and gave away the royalties to his talks to Elan Vital. People complain that followers have given him money, but it's a bit like eating a meal at a free restaurant where you can pay what you think it's worth or contribute to keep the place running for others.Momento (talk) 01:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a 3rd party source saying that there's no charge? I seem to recall reading something about compulsory tithes, though that may have been for people living in ashrams. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's a distinction here. The point I'm suggesting is a description of the teachings themselves. Whether DLM or Elan Vital charges for Knowledge is an administrative detail that is probably best discussed in connection with the various controversies over money, allegedly opulent lifestyle, etc. and not in the teachings section. Msalt (talk) 02:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We already have an article on the teachings, a summary of which resides here. As for the no charge for teachings, I think that it is an important distinction and could be covered in the teachings article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on both points. It does belong in the teachings article but I don't think it belongs in the short summary of Rawat's teachings in this article. Rather, I think that here, it logically belongs with other discussions of him and money, whereever we put that (Reception?). Msalt (talk) 07:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think your proposal is interesting, Msalt; it might add historical perspective. On the other hand, I understand Jossi's concern (if I have understood it correctly) that historical aspects should not outweigh his present message. Other views? Jayen466 01:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Jayen. Unless I'm misreading him, I think Jossi made that point only about lila; as far as I can tell, Knowledge remains rooted in the same four direct experiences. Am I wrong? Msalt (talk) 02:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We used to have two article: Past teachings of Prem Rawat and Current teachings of Prem Rawat. Now the former redirects to Divine Light Mission, and the latter goes to this article. I'm not sure why we wouldn't have all teaching, past and current, in teachings of Prem Rawat. I'd be simple to have a section for each. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Both these should be redirected to Teachings of Prem Rawat, as the article covers these aspects. As for a source that the technioques are taught free of charge, we have self-published sources such as this, and this. I will check if I can find some secondary sources. Regarding the ashrams, people were asked to give their possessions on joining one, so tithes would not have applied. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is one: Guru Maharaj Ji's group does not charge for the courses or the teaching of the techniques of "knowledge." Stoner & Parker, All God's Children. p.10 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another source for "Teachings":

In the Divine Light Mission, the guru taught that humanity is inherently divine. For people to attain this divinity, they must gain knowledge, which came from the teachings of Guru Maharaj Ji, who is of the line of Perfect Masters.

The movement that originally started as the Divine Light Mission is now reformed in its beliefs and teachings. Elan Vital bears little or no similarity to traditional Indian religious concepts such as reincarnation or heaven. The emphasis is in present-tense experience of life in the here and now.

Maharaj ji teaches a simple self-discovery process, involving four simple techniques to turn the senses within and appreciate the joyful basis of existence beyond thoughts and ideas. He denies criticism that his teachings represent instant gratification, but sees it instead as an ongoing learning process that can enrich an individual's life.
— Edwards, Linda (2001). A brief guide to beliefs: ideas, theologies, mysteries, and movements. Louisville, Ky: Westminster John Knox Press. pp. p.278-279. ISBN 0-664-22259-5. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help)

The same source can be used in addition to others for number of adherents, given: Outside of India, at the time of this writing [2001], Elan Vital claims seventy-five thousand followers in the rest of the world. p.279 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned above, I moved the discussion of whether Rawat is divine to this section, where it fits more logically. Also, I am going to change the following line because it implies that scholars are endorsing the view that only Rawat can provide the keys to his meditation techniques, which is POV at best and certainly not what the scholars say:

"Prem Rawat teaches a process of self-discovery using four meditation techniques to which only he has the keys".

You could say something like "techniques to which he CLAIMS only he has the keys" but I think it's more encyclopedic just to describe the techniques. Hence

"Prem Rawat teaches a process of self-discovery using four meditation techniques (Light, Music, Nectar and Word)."

This is much closer to what the sources say. Msalt (talk) 05:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The edit I describe in the preceding paragraphs got caught up in Janice Rowe's blind revert. I plan to reinstate it. Any discussion? To be honest, the text as it stands is a contentious, poorly sourced item under the terms of BLP, so I should probably not even wait, but I prefer to work with consensus. Msalt (talk) 17:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't fit there. What is the logic? The teachings are unrelated to these claims. Janice Rowe (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 06:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You just reverted several unrelated edits with a misleading edit summary. This looks quite a bit like edit-warring, especially since you removed the POV tag [[78]] from this article -- the subject of earlier edit warring -- without Talk comment or even an edit summary earlier today. Please self-revert and, if you continue to feel that this move of a paragraph is incorrect, revert only that single edit. Thank you.

As for your objection to moving the paragraph, please explain yourself. The paragraph in question is a discussion of whether Rawat claims divinity. Clearly that is an aspect of his spiritual teaching. Why do you think it better belongs in a section titled "Leaving India"? Msalt (talk) 06:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue that whatever purported claims of divinity have been described, these are most definitively not part of PR's teachings. What makes you believe that it is? The Teachings section is a WP:SUMMARY of the main article Teachings of Prem Rawat, I do not see anything there that relates to the subject you want to include in that section.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an editor of Teachings of Prem Rawat. While certainly that is a good article to inform the current section, it should stand on its own. Every major spiritual teacher is faced with the question of their divinity -- e.g. Jesus -- and their position on the issue is clearly part of their teachings. Rawat's answer to reporter's questions about divinity were all elements of his teachings -- the divine is in each of us, etc.

Why do you think that this paragraph belongs in a personal narrative of his teenage years titled "Leaving India"? If someone has a better location, perhaps reception, I'm all ears. (That was actually my first suggestion on the Talk page.) But it clearly does not belong in Leaving India. Msalt (talk) 16:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:SUMMARY. The "Teachings" section is a summary of Teachings of Prem Rawat. Saying that you are not editing that article, is not an excuse. If you want to expand that article, do so, and after that the summary can be tweaked to include new material. If you read the teachings article, there is already material about divinitu within, etc. Feel free to edit some of that stuff into the summary here. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the pointer, very interesting and helpful. Given that, you're absolutely right, the paragraph shouldn't be moved into teaching until and unless it can be synchronized with the other article. However, it also clearly does not belong in "Leaving India." Unless anyone objects, I will go back to my original idea and move it into Reception. Msalt (talk) 20:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, here's another idea. The "Westernization" section already contains a discussion about Rawat reducing the "Perfect Master" language with its deistic overtones. Would it be better to move the controversy over Rawat's deity (or lack thereof) to that section? These two sections really present two different viewpoints that might be better merged. The one currently in Leaving India seems to say "some said he claimed Godness, but he didn't really, but you can't stop those devotees, can you?" (I'm paraphrasing.) The Westernization section seems to be saying "OK, he was kind of Goddish in the Indian phase but dropped that during Westernization." (again, paraphrasing). Can we reconcile those and put them all in Westernization? I think that makes the most sense, now that I look at it. Msalt (talk) 20:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That may work, although I suppose how it will read. Care to try that "merge" here in talk first? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, that's a big change with a lot of subjective choices in it. Actually, I was hoping someone else might tackle it (here). Don't want to hog the conversation. Jayen? Msalt (talk) 22:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Will have a go. Will try to incorporate the van der Lans/Derks bit as well. Jayen466 23:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Thank you. Msalt (talk) 00:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of Momento's sudden burst of undiscussed edits inserted the phrase "taught to him by his guru" into the first sentence of this section. "Guru" is original research; the only source we have says his "father." Furthermore, even if you could show that Shri Hans had a guru relationship with his son at age 6, it is confusing to the reader to use that term instead of the plain meaning of "father". As we're saying that Shri Hans taught him Knowledge in these very words, the reader can easily pick up that meaning as appropriate. But if you say "guru", no reader could be expected to understand that to mean his father. I also fixed the placement and citations for that phrase. Msalt (talk) 08:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I added the phrase "collectively known as Knowledge" to that first sentence as well, to make it clear that the term refers to those meditation techniques. Otherwise, the reference to Knowledge with a capital K in the last paragraph of this section is confusing. Also, I'm fine with Momento's move of the teachings criticisms to this section, as long as that doesn't ruin it as a WP:SUMMARY per Jossi's comments, but s/he placed it in the middle of the narrative of the development of Rawat's teachings (ie "1) R started as this. 2) critics say.... 3) Then R changed to that". I'm going to move #2 after #3 to keep that narrative clear. Msalt (talk) 08:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Peace Bomb, do we have a transcript?

I'm hesitant to go ahead and assume that the text of "The Peace Bomb" as shown at prem-rawat-bio.org and at ex-premie.org is correct, do we have another source for the full transcript of this speech, or reason to believe these sources are not 100% accurate on this particular issue? Maelefique (talk) 03:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Whereas I accept that within the strict rules Wikipedia enforces for BLPs, my site, ex-premie.org, may not be used as a source, the information on the site is accurate, and any transcripts of Rawat's speeches are taken word for word from Elan Vital/Divine Light Mission publications. The content may not be welcome to Jossi, but since taking over the site in 2001, I have included on the home page a request for Elan Vital or Rawat (or anyone else) to correct any inaccuracies, and to date the only contact I have had from Elan Vital is an unsuccessful claim for copyright infringement. In that claim, the page with the Peace Bomb address was included in the list of pages in Elan Vital's complaint. --John Brauns (talk) 12:37, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That satsang was given in Hindi at India Gate, and all what is available is some translations that have been published in the past. I will check if I can find any sources on the subject. As for the site you are linking to, please don't. That site contains numerous BLP violations and commentary that is most unwelcome. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. The only mention I found (but I am sure must be others as well, I think from Hummel) is this:

"In 1969 Maharaj Ji sent the first disciple to the West. In the next year he held a speech for an audience of thousands of people in Delhi. This speech became known as 'the peace bomb' and was the start of the great mission to the West."
— (free translation of Dutch original) Kranenborg, Reender Dr. (1982) Oosterse Geloofsbewegingen in het Westen ("Eastern Faith Movements in the West") (Dutch language) ISBN 90-210-4965-1 p.64

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hummel only quotes some brief phrases. I can translate them if you like. Rumiton (talk) 13:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Appears our own Wikiquote has some (translated!) excerpts too, here: Wikiquote:Prem Rawat#1970s --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blind revert

I'd hope that editors of this article could be more careful than this edit.[79] While the editor says she is changing one item, in fact she's reverting a series of edits including those that she presumably doesn't object to, or at least isn't giving an explanation for reverting. That type of activity is unhelpful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid that this blind revert was not an accident, but rather a misleading edit summary. When I asked her on her Talk page to self-revert the mass reversion and focus on individual edits, she replied "I disagree with your edits. It's that simple." [[80]] Also, as I noted in the Teachings section of this page, she earlier today reverted the POV tag -- the subject of an earlier edit war -- without talk page discussion or even an edit summary. [[81]] Msalt (talk) 06:54, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article is subject to special probation. If the editor refuses to explain the edit then it may be time to invoke it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:00, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If we want to avoid edit wars, we should encourage users to do one a edit at a time, wait to see if there are objections and then do the next edit. Making multiple edits in rapid succession, may also be not helpful. Reverts of such edits are a way to express disagreement, and if done within 1RR, it may be a valid behavior in that context. Let's help each other, and go slow for a change. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, that's not an appropriate method of editing. By making discrete edits Msalt made it easy for any to object to or even revert a single edit. Reverting a whole series of edits just because an editor disagrees with one is not a valid form of expressing disagreement. You make it sound as if blind reverting is a good thing, while everything in WP says that even one revert of good faith editing is not helpful. Deleting an NPOV tag without any discussion or edit summary, as Janice Rowe has just done, is not a helpful way to edit a contentious article either. I won't report Janice Rowe for this, but if the behavior repeats then it'll be necessary to invoke the probation rules. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let me express a concern here (which was expressed as well by others at WP:AN). One of the pitfalls of 1RR probation is that unless we are careful, we will be applying double standards: A person making an edit, could be as tendentious as a person reverting that edit. 1RR is there to protect the process by allowing the expression of disagreement by issuing a revert, while disallowing an escalating edit war. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be clear here, Jossi. Do you consider my edits tendentious? You certainly imply so in defending Janice Rowe. I have discussed these edits on Talk and frequently shaped them to your own personal suggestions. Please explain why a single edit reverting several, with a misleading edit summary and refusal to discuss on Talk (still), would ever be valid. Why not revert each individual edit? Msalt (talk) 16:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not implying that, Msalt. All I am saying is that rapid-fire editing is not conducive to consensus building, and in an article under 1RR probation, a very bad idea. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. There's nothing in the probation terms that say editors have to make tiny edits and then wait for approval before amking another tiny edit. The disruption here is from an editor who blindly reverted edits that she didn't even disapprove of, that she didn't describe or explain, and that she won't discuss. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:01, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, good, thanks Jossi. I have been frustrated by rapid-fire edits by other editors before, so that makes sense. I will continue to address each of those edits here in Talk, and to move more deliberately. However, I do not think any of that justifies Janice Rowe's edit warring or refusal to discuss. I resisted the temptation to blind revert Momento's many rapid fire edits. Msalt (talk) 20:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, you wrote yesterday that rapid-fire editing "is not conducive to consensus building, and in an article under 1RR probation, a very bad idea" and that wholesale reverts of such edits may be a valid way to express disagreement. Does your statement apply to Momento? S/he just made 7 undiscussed edits in a very short period of time. Msalt (talk) 07:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What is the problem with adding context and improving logic and readability? I added "taught to him by his guru" to the sentence on techniques, moved the criticism of teaching to the teaching section, added a Wikilink for Collier and removed a student newspaper as a source. Four actual edits in an hour. Jayen466 made 4 edits in 20 minutes without complaint. I'm getting the impression you are singling me out for criticism. The other day you told me "Please indent your comments properly. Failing to indent is a sign of disruptive editing" and yet you've done exactly the same above.Momento (talk) 08:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you kidding? Jayen466 is uniformly measured, cooperative and working toward consensus. If you edited that way, I would invite you to make edits the way I recently invited Jayen. You made 3 edits between 7:10 and 7:13, and another 3 between 6:39 and 6:43. That's 6 in 7 minutes, only 1 minor. As for indenting, that's to reply to someone. I undented because I was starting a new thread, not replying to anyone. Here, replying to you, I indented and added an extra one so as not to obscure Will Beback's edit. See the difference? Msalt (talk) 08:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that making small, well-identified edits is a problem. What concerns me more are edits that involve more than one issue, or are poorly-labelled. This pair of edits is an example: [82][83]. It would have been much better to have moved the material, and then made the content changes rather than doing so in one edit which makes it had to distinguish the differences. I don't see how changing "banal" to "lacking in intellectual content", improves readability. I urge editors to make smaller edits.

Once again you have wrongly accused me. I didn't do anything to "banal". I urge you to be more careful..Momento (talk) 08:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's just my point - it's hard to follow what you've done when you simultaneously move a section and edit it. Now that you mention it, I see you've moved the word down and attributed it: "Kent described a Rawat talk as banal." Unfortunately, readers will be wondering who "Kent" is. Since Kent is not a household name it's not helpful to attribute a criticims to a mysterious, one-named person. Either we should introduce him with a full name and some info (Stephen A. Kent is notable enough for an article) or just say "one writer" has called the subject "banal". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As for the revert, why was properly soourced material removed? BLP doesn't prohibit the use of student newspapers, and the newspaper of a major university may be considered as reliable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

BLP says "Be very firm about the use of high quality references". A student newspaper isn't a high quality reference.Momento (talk) 08:33, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"A student newspaper isn't a high quality reference." -- FALSE!

 There was an error in the citation, however, which I'll fix 
 when I put it back.

The Daily Californian is an independent, student-run newspaper published by the Independent Berkeley Students Publishing Company, Inc. The newspaper serves the UC Berkeley campus and its surrounding community, publishing Monday through Friday during the academic year and twice a week during the summer. Established in 1871, The Daily Californian is one of the oldest newspapers on the West Coast and one of the oldest college newspapers in the country. Daily Cal staffers have the unique opportunity of gaining daily metro news experience in the lively city of Berkeley. The newspaper has consistently covered the city and its institutions since its establishment, allowing student journalists to report on campus as well as city news. The Daily Cal also operates Best of Berkeley, a city guide and local arts Web site for the city of Berkeley.
One of the few campus newspapers in the country that is completely independent from the university it covers, the Daily Cal supports itself entirely from advertising revenue and does not receive equipment resources or any form of financial support from the university or the Associated Students of the University of California. The only independent campus newspaper in the UC system, the Daily Cal is run entirely by current or recently-graduated UC Berkeley students, and the majority of the business division of the newspaper is student-operated as well.
The Daily Cal earned its independence in 1971 and publishes with the name, The Daily Californian, pursuant of a licensing agreement with the UC Board of Regents. The move towards independence was initiated after the university administration attempted to fire three editors because of a controversial editorial regarding People's Park, a university-owned lot in the Southside neighborhood of Berkeley that became an unplanned park for locals.

So, there you have it! It gained its independence as a result of People's Park, arguably the most holy and significant event in human history (It sure wasn't Millennium '73)! Wowest (talk) 09:11, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. The The Daily Californian has won numerous awards, and the reportere of this specific article has gone on to become a staff reporter for the L.A. Times.[84] This newspaper appears to be a "high quality reference", especially compared to the one-book Mighty River Press. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is a poorly written, poorly researched, beat up that doesn't even attempt to hide its bias.Momento (talk) 11:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Those sound like opinions. What assertions in the article are objectively incorrect? Are sources unreliable when we disagree with their reporting? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 11:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Head of Elan Vital". Wrong. "began Divine Light Mission in the 1970s when he was 13 years old". Wrong. "Since 1990, Rawat has reworked his image. Divine Light Mission has been replaced by the charitable organization Elan Vital". Wrong. And pretty much all the rest is ex-devotee's opinion.Momento (talk) 12:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, at the time there wasn't a Wikipedia article on Prem Rawat yet, leave alone a reliable one. ;) --Francis Schonken (talk) 12:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And there never will be a reliable one if we rely on tabloids.Momento (talk) 12:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Too much information

Aren't we getting a little carried away with "The event featured spectacular staging and a 56-piece rock band". I'm thinking of challenging its relevance.Momento (talk) 12:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, we're not, and I strongly object to you making such an edit. This event was a pivotal event in the life and career of Rawat, and the style of the event was a major part in the massive publicity (including award-winning national television program) that it brought to Rawat. This is all documented by a large number of both scholarly and high quality mainstream journalistic sources. One scholar calls it "the youth culture event of 1973;" another calls it "the turning point" for Rawat and the DLM. Yet given all that, it has only a single paragraph in this article. This is highly relevant. Msalt (talk) 16:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I also think that placing 12 references (!) for the same material is a bit over the top, in particular when the sources say more or less the same. The Mission incurred a debt estimated variously from $600,000 to over $1 million as a result, severely damaging its finances.[24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32][33][34][35] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, the section was deleted by Momento whose edit summary said "Exceptional claims need exceptional sources" [[85]], and he just announced plans to delete part of this section again on yet another pretext. I am trying in good faith to meet the frequent and often contradictory objections, mostly by that one editor, to anything s/he perceives as critical of the article subject. It would be helpful if you could say a word or two to restrain that editor, who clearly follows your lead.

Also, the sources document the entire paragraph, not just the debt. Would you prefer allocating the sources between the individual points (attendance vs. debt, for example?) I will look for cites that merely repeat the others and try to delete a few. Msalt (talk) 16:21, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is an overkill. All what sources are for is to verify the material. If there are 20 sources that assert the same thing and there are no competing viewpoints, pick a couple (the best or more representative) and dismiss the others. If the sources diverge considerably, we present the competing viewpoints, attributing the opinions to those that hold them. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, you're not addressing Msalt's point on the contradictory demands: Momento deletes if there's not a truckload of high quality references (and if s/he thinks it's not all to the glorification of our article's subject), and still then objects expansion of the text in the body of the article; you object to "too many references", but equally don't support the expansion of the text in the body of the article, covered by those sources. If demands remain thus contradictory, and nobody can sort it out with Momento and you, I'd recommend to keep it "as is" in the article, and defend that version. We're nobody's subordinates answering to every contradictory, and after a time somewhat gratuitous, request. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jossi, you're the one who asked for more sources. "I think that there are many other sources that address the "Millenium" attendance, and the losses incurred. We ought to present all these competing viewpoints, not only Foss." [[86]] On top of which, Momento added one of those references just recently! I will remove it (since, as an encyclopedia, it is an inferior tertiary source) as well as the less informative newspaper accounts, leaving the scholarly and superior journalistic citations. Msalt (talk) 17:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, done. I also redistributed the sources to the individual sentences of the paragraph. Better? Msalt (talk) 18:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, much better. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

2000s Section

The paragraph about the Prem Rawat Foundation is, in my opinion, too long. It currently reads:

In 2001, The Prem Rawat Foundation (TPRF) was founded as a Public Charitable Organization, 
largely for the production and distribution of materials promoting Rawat's message. TPRF also 
funds worldwide humanitarian efforts, providing food, water and medical help to war-torn and 
impoverished areas. In 2007 after an evaluation by the Better Business Bureau, TPRF became a 
Recommended Charity of the Wise Giving Alliance.[79][80]

I recommend cutting the final sentence about certification by the Wise Giving Alliance. This detail is fine in the article about TPRF but too much detail for this article. Msalt (talk) 18:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in the Prem Rawat article we'd rather concentrate on the article subject's relation to that organisation, e.g.: was Rawat a founding member? Has he ever commented on the organisation, or defined what it means to him? etc. References on this can come from primary sources (if reliable, not unduly self-serving etc), but preferably secondary sources: do we have any?

Note that there's something about the organisation in the "Reception" section: as the sentence there on TPRF is only about "we're not able to get info on the reception of Prem Rawat via that organisation", that sentence can be removed there as far as I'm concerned. --Francis Schonken (talk) 19:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is a link in the Web archive that may be useful, as it explains this issue: [87]. I would argue that saying that a foundation that carries the subject's name, and the fact that the P. Rawat promotes and spearheads humanitarian activities of the foundation [88], cannot be included in this article, is absurd. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the first of the links suggested by Jossi ( http://web.archive.org/web/20030618195430/www.tprf.org/pr_letter.htm ), we could write something like "Rawat sees TPRF as an instrument to propagate his message of peace" with a reference to that source, but then I'm reluctant to do sourcing to primary sources that are no longer available except through web archive. For me (but I'm happy to hear others' opinions) that's just below what we can do notability-wise. Do we have any other repository (book, non-archive webpage, press report,...) that contains this info?
The second link does not offer the kind of info I suggested any more (meaning: insight of how Prem Rawat sees and/or relates to TPRF), at least I didn't find any, and even if on that page, seems rather like a page that rotates messages, not knowing whether a report found there would still be available in the foreseeable future). --Francis Schonken (talk) 21:38, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The second link includes links to reports of appearances of Prem Rawat at events organized by the foundation in partnerships with NGOs, and the role of P Rawat on some of the major initiatives. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but as I said (1) this doesn't explain how Rawat relates to TPRF; (2) we're not sure if such reports would be still reachable via the site in a few months. --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But maybe I'm not looking at the right ones of these reports, if you feel like you can of course propose a text for the article, and how you would present its reference(s). --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to be misunderstood here. I am certainly NOT proposing that we remove all reference to TPRF; all I'm proposing to do is to remove the third sentence about its certification, which I think is more appropriate in the article on the Foundation. Now that it's pointed out to me, I think the sentence in the lede about the foundation should be moved out of there and merged in with the paragraph on it in the 2000s Section. Fair enough? Msalt (talk) 20:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That would be OK. What we need is a short summary of what the Foundation is and does. As for the lead, I think it is important, albeit a recent development. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I will remove just that third sentence in the 2000s section, and will leave the sentence in the lede pending further discussion. Do any other editors have thoughts on the matter? Msalt (talk) 20:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to get the full context, the intro also contains this sentence:

In 2001 The Prem Rawat Foundation was established to contribute to global humanitarian efforts and to promote his message, which is now available throughout the world via print, TV, cable and satellite.

Since we're talking about the TPRF here, I'll note that the article on it has no secondary sources to establish the foundation's notability. Likewise the Divine United Organization. Those articles may be deleted unless we can find some 3rd-party sources. If so the sourced content would probably be merged to the EV and DLM articles. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry? Why would you delete The Prem Rawat Foundation article exactly? There are sources provided. See also WP:COMPANY. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a discussion for another page - I was just alerting folks, here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:29, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See my comment above. The Foundation has been referred in scholarly sources, as well as in secondary sources such as the Red Cross, and Rotary. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's stick to discussing this article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

??? You started the discussion here, Will, not me. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was just a side announcement. Let's not get distracted. This thread concerns the TPRF material in this article. Since we have (at the moment) an article about the organization we don't need to give a lot of details about it here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One thing readers of this article and neutral editors may not know is that unusually for charitable foundations bearing the name of wealthy living people, the Prem Rawat Foundation does not appear to receive any endowment from its founder. The foundation's website says it is funded from those who appreciate Rawat's message, and from the sale of materials. It goes out of its way to stress that Rawat receives nothing from the foundation (cf. the Gates foundation). Is this worth including in the article so that readers don't get the wrong impression? --John Brauns (talk) 21:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the subject didn't fund the organization, and doesn't serve on its board, then the foundation appears to be more like a tribute to him than an activity of his. If we can find any sources which describe his relationship to the foundation, or his activities on its behalf, then that would help make the connection. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If he's not directly involved, then I would suggest that we add the phrase "was established in his honor". I would also be much more skeptical of including the sentence about the foundation in the lede of the article about Rawat. At that point, the 2000s Section would probably cover it. I had the impression that this was one of his main personal activities in recent years. Msalt (talk) 22:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Re. "was established in his honor" - TPRF appears to be a "Reception" topic after all, but differently from what is about it in the "Reception" section currently... --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The foundation stated purpose as described in the BBB Wise Giving Alliance Charity Report [89] says of the foundation's charter: Stated Purpose: "to promote and disseminate to the general public the speeches, writings, music, art and public forums of Prem Rawat;...to support, fund, and promote humanitarian initiatives for the relief of physical hunger and thirst through practical and tangible means; and to provide relief to natural disaster victims worldwide". I would argue that to do that (e.g. disseminate to the general public the speeches, writings, music, art and public forums of Prem Rawat) they must have ownership and assignment of ownership of the intellectual property related to these, meaning that they must have the agreement of P Rawat to carry the foundations' stated purpose. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:24, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good argument, but like many good arguments it's original research. The subject may have assigned his copyrights to the group. Or the foundation may be buying his works. Without a source saying so we don't know. It's certainly possible that he's agreed to be honored, in the same way that one agrees to receive an honorary degree. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see that it's original research; it's an argument, in the same way that the claim that the foundation was set up in his honour is an argument. In the latter case, it is argument based on speculation. There is certainly no evidence that it was set up in his honour. Rather, the stated aim of the foundation is to support the work of P.Rawat. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, then this should be the status quo. Armeisen (talk) 22:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, "they must have ownership and assignment of ownership of the intellectual property related to these" is NOT implied by TPRF's stated purposes. Not any more than that a publicity agent necesserily owns intellectual rights of the artist (firm,...) he promotes. If I would have a bookshop and sell books, and above that, promote the books I sell, and disseminate flyers on the books I've got on offer, none of this implies I would own IP of anything I sell, promote, disseminate, etc... --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Jossi, that was the kind of info I was looking for (as primary source material that is eligible for sourcing in the article). However, the link doesn't provide much info on Rawat's involvement in the organisation (or is he one of the four unmentioned members of the board? - is that "public knowledge", and if so, is there a source for it?) - lacking much involvement of Rawat himself, I think Msalt has a point that the Prem Rawat article shouldn't elaborate too much on TPRF (i.e., mention it but thus far this doesn't appear a key aspect of Rawat's bio - a "Reception" topic and that's about it). --Francis Schonken (talk) 22:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There doesn't seem to be any big secret about TPRF's board -- I found it in one click, starting from tprf.org (click Foundation) [[90]] Rawat is not on it. Msalt (talk) 05:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

see insert above Francis Armeisen (talk) 22:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a secondary source (my highlight): "Vita - Tsunami: Fondazione Prem Rawat dona 150mila dollari". Retrieved 2008-03-07. {{cite web}}: Text "PAM Italia - Notizie - PAM nei media" ignored (help). Italian: Un assegno di 150.000 dollari e' stato donato da Prem Rawat (fondatore della omonima Fondazione) a Francesco Strippoli, consigliere del direttore esecutivo del Programma alimentare mondiale, come sostegno all'impegno del Pam nel fornire assistenza alimentare alle persone colpite dallo tsunami in Indonesia. Which clearly states that Prem Rawat is the founder of the foundation of the same name. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, thanks, but this still leaves the question: was he a/the founder of TPRF or not? The Italian article seems to suggest he is "fondatore della omonima Fondazione" (eng. "founder of the Foundation named after him"). Isn't there a (public) charter or whatever the official document is named that lists the founder(s) of TPRF? (I mean, something like [91] listing five names for the WMF, which makes among others J. Wales a "founder" of the WMF) --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, Francis. The original discussion of the foundation is three sentences long. That is hardly excessive. I don't know where one finds articles of association in the U.S., but they would tell what part Maharaji played. Certainly the website lists the members of the board, but I am not sure that that reference has credibility in Wikipedia; certainly, I would not be arguing for it if there was disagreement. But if there are public documents that attest that the purpose of the foundation is to promote the humanitarian and other work of P. Rawat, then references to the foundation in this article are valid. If the foundation is a significant, if not the primary, vehicle for his work, then it's mention here is perfectly valid. Armeisen (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See below, I agree with what's currently in the 2000s section. But somehow we started discussing what is in the Lead section and in the Reception section about TPRF too. --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we not mention the foundation in this article. I think the only issues are 1) does a sentence about the foundation belong in the lede of the article, when the extent of his personal involvement is not clear, and 2) whether the phrase "in his honor" should be added to "was established". Possibly there may be a third issue about whether he grants TPRF free use of his writings or licenses them for some kind of royalty. That was hinted at in the conversation. At this point, the evidence seems a bit vague on all 3 points. Msalt (talk) 23:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think what we say in the article about TPRF is fine now, not over-long, and relevant; relevant because it's the distributor of his works. We don't say anything that we don't know is verifiable. Jayen466 23:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think it belongs in the lede, too? Msalt (talk) 23:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Jayen. I might recast what is in the Reception section about TPRF though, with what I learned here (depends on whether Rawat is "founder" or TPRF was founded in his honour). --Francis Schonken (talk) 23:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Foundation, which he founded, provides nutritious food and clean water…etc [92] Rumiton (talk) 01:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think all the numbers in Reception really belong to the corresponding articles about the movement(s), so to that extent I also feel TPRF is out of place there (it does not represent Elan Vital, but Rawat, if I understand correctly). Jayen466 00:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's okay in the lede. Definitely relevant as the distributor of his works; mentioning the charity work is perhaps less essential in the lede, but okay by me too. Jayen466 23:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think Jayen is correct here. Having the item in the Reception section is not really appropriate. The sentence The Prem Rawat Foundation, which is not a church or religion-related organisation, does not report on adherents or followers, but publishes annual reports regarding its finances and activities, available through its website.[95] is written in a way that suggests that it is in some way remiss for not reporting on its followers, when it was never set up, as the previous phrase states, as an organisation which would have adherents or followers. There's nothing to follow. It could be replaced with The Prem Rawat Foundation publishes annual reports regarding its finances and activities, available through its website. If the sentence is to remain in this section, then I propose it be changed.

By the way, I was a bit intrigued by the use of the word lede here. It may be a Wikipedia thing, but it is not a word in Webster's Collegiate dictionary, nor the Australian standard Macquarie. I don't know what it means. Armeisen (talk) 01:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good argument, Amersein. Lede = WP:LEAD ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) Wikipedia:Lead section, don't know whether "lede" is newspeak or something, I always say "lead section". --Francis Schonken (talk) 01:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Newspeak indeed ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:20, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a journo word. Pronounced "lid". Now you have it all. Rumiton (talk) 01:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Didn't mean to confuse anyone. Just thought that was the appropriate word. "Lead" by itself can be to lead someone, its past tense, a heavy toxic metal, or an electrical wire. Lede only means one thing - the first paragraph of an article.Msalt (talk) 02:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm not crazy, it's a valid Wikipedia Word. WP:LEAD says "The lead section, lead, lede, or introduction of a Wikipedia article is the section before the first heading." Msalt (talk) 02:42, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Introduced somewhat more than a year ago [93] --Francis Schonken (talk) 02:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found a balancing R/S reference from the 2000's, so I tossed it in. Otherwise, this thing still reads like an advertisement for a meditation course. Wowest (talk) 07:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Francis. I thought that section was getting a bit too long, and that seemed like a logical place to break it into pieces small enough to edit. Wowest (talk) 09:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wowest, I gotta admire your gall. I just noticed on History that you tried to insert a bogus quote from a bogus premie (JaiSatChitAnand) into the article ("We all got a past, man.") Made me laugh after a rough work day, whether you intended to or not. Thanks anyway. Rumiton (talk) 11:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

^ “Maharaji Ji: The Selling of a Guru, 1973”, by Gregg Killday, Los Angeles Times, November 13, 1973, pD1
^ ”TV: Meditating on a Young Guru and His Followers”, by John O’Connor, New York Times, February 25, 1974
^ ”Oz In the Astrodome”, by Ted Morgan, New York Times, December 9, 1973
^ ”Gurus Followers Cheer Millenium in Festivities in Astrodome,” By Eleanor Blau, New York Times, November 12, 1973

[Schnabel1982-1] Schnabel, Tussen stigma en charisma ("Between stigma and charisma"), 1982. Ch. IV, p. 99:

[...] de [...] intellectueel weinig opmerkelijke Maharaj Ji. [...] the [...] intellectually quite unremarkable Maharaj Ji.

[Kent2001-2] Cite error: The named reference Kent2001 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Rajeshwari_Devi_criticism-3] "Guru Tries to Take Control of Mission" in The Ruston Daily Leader, April 9, 1975

[Hunt2003-4] Hunt, Stephen J. Alternative Religions: A Sociological Introduction (2003), pp.116-7, Ashgate Publishing, Ltd. ISBN 0-7546-3410-8"

[5] Brown, Chip, Parents Versus Cult: Frustration, Kidnapping, Tears; Who Became Kidnappers to Rescue Daughter From Her Guru, The Washington Post, February 15, 1982
"Suddenly there were new reports from people who'd actually managed the Divine Light Mission—Robert Mishler, the man who organized the business side of the mission and served for 5 1/2 years as its president, and Robert Hand Jr., who served as a vice president for two years. In the aftermath of Jonestown, Mishler and Hand felt compelled to warn of similarities between Guru Maharaj Ji and Jim Jones. They claimed the potential for another Jonestown existed in the Divine Light Mission because the most fanatic followers of Maharaj Ji would not question even the craziest commands. As Jim Jones convincingly demonstrated, the health of a cult group can depend on the stability of the leader.
Mishler and Hand revealed aspects of life inside the mission that frightened the Deitzes. In addition to his ulcer, the Perfect Master who held the secret to peace and spiritual happiness 'had tremendous problems of anxiety which he combatted with alcohol,' Mishler said in a Denver radio interview in February 1979."

[6] Melton, J. Gordon. Encyclopedic Handbook pp.144-5 "However as the group withdrew from the public eye, little controversy followed it except the accusations of Robert Mishner [sic], the former president of the Mission who left in 1977. Mishner complained that the ideals of the group had become impossible to fulfill and that money was increasingly diverted to Maharaj Ji's personal use. Mishner's charges [...] found little support and have not affected the progress of the Mission."

[7] The "Sant" term is derived from the Sanskrit sat (सद) (truth, reality) has overlapping usages, its root meaning being "one who knows the truth" or "one who has experienced Ultimate Reality". It differs from the false cognate "Saint" as it is often translated. The term Sant has taken on the more general ethical meaning of "good person", but is assigned specifically to the poet-sants of medieval India. Schomer, Karine, The Sant Tradition in Perspective, in Sant Mat: Studies in a Devotional Tradition of India in Schomer K. and McLeod W.H. (Eds.), pp.22-3, ISBN 0-9612208-0-5 According to Rigopoulos, (page 404) the word Sant is generally used for the bhakti saint poets of the Marathi and Hindi speaking areas.

[8] Sanskrit: बालयोगेश्वर = child master of yogis

[Mangalwadi-9] Cite error: The named reference Mangalwadi was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[Cagan#2-10] Cagan, A. Peace is Possible: The Life and Message of Prem Rawat. Mighty River Press -ISBN -10: 0-9788694-9-4

[11] Hadden, Religions of the World, pp.428"The meditation techniques the Maharaji teaches today are the same he learned from his father, Hans Ji Maharaj, who, in turn, learned them from his spiritual teacher [Sarupanand]." 'Knowledge', claims Maharaji, 'is a way to be able to take all your senses that have been going outside all your life, turn them around and put them inside to feel and to actually experience you...'

[12] s V.Downton -Sacred journeys: The conversion of young Americans to Divine Light Mission (1979) Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-04198-5

[AboutTPRF-13] About The Prem Rawat Foundation

[14] "Teean-Age Guru's Sect Grooses $3.78 Million" Los Angeles Times; Apr 10, 1976, pg. A27

[15] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2

[16] "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings", JUDY PASTERNAK Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985, pg. WS1

[17] "Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" MARK FORSTER, Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979 pg. 3

[18] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[19] "Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" MARK FORSTER, Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979 pg. 3

[20] "Interest Conflicts: Planning- Door Open to abuses?" VICTOR MERINA Los Angeles Times; Jul 22, 1981, pg. A11

[21] "Supervisors to Rehear Guru Helistop Request", JACK BIRKINSHAW, Los Angeles Times, Apr 26, 1981; pg. WS1

[22] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[23] ""FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998,

[24] "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings", JUDY PASTERNAK Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985, pg. WS1

[25] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[26] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2

[27] "Malibu Guru Maintains Following Despite Rising Mistrust of Cults" MARK FORSTER, Los Angeles Times Jan 12, 1979 pg. 3

[28] "Interest Conflicts: Planning-Door Open to abuses?" VICTOR MERINA Los Angeles Times; Jul 22, 1981, pg. A11

[29] "Supervisors to Rehear Guru Helistop Request", JACK BIRKINSHAW, Los Angeles Times, Apr 26, 1981; pg. WS1

[30] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[31] "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

[32] "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings" JUDY PASTERNAK, Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985; pg. WS1

[33] "Guru Wins OK From Caltrans for Helicopter Pad" ROBERT W STEWART., Los Angeles Times Jun 3, 1982; pg. WS15

[34] "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings" JUDY PASTERNAK, Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985; pg. WS1

[MDenied-35] ^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e ^f ^g ^h ⁱ ^j "Maharaji Denied in Bid to Triple Copter Landings", JUDY PASTERNAK Los Angeles Times; Jul 7, 1985, pg. WS1 Cite error: The named reference "MDenied" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).

[36] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[37] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2

[38] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[39] "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

[40] "Interest Conflicts: Planning- Door Open to abuses?" VICTOR MERINA Los Angeles Times; Jul 22, 1981, pg. A11

[41] Navbharat Times, 10 November 1970 (from Hindi original) "A three-day event in commemoration of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj, the largest procession in Delhi history of 18 miles of procession; it culminated in a public event at India Gate, where Sant Ji Maharaj addressed the large gathering"

[42] Hindustan Times, 9 November 1970 (English) "Roads in the Capital spilled over with a 1,000,000 processionists, men, women and children marched from Indra Prasha Estate to the India Gate lawn."

[43] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[44] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2

[45] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[46] "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

[47] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[48] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2

[49] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[50] "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

[51] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[52] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2

[53] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[54] "FORMER GURU ON A DIFFERENT MISSION", Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

[55] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; pg. B2

[Cagan219220-56] Cagan, A. Peace is Possible: The Life and Message of Prem Rawat. Mighty River Press. ISBN 0-9788694-9-4, pp. 219–220

[57] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE , Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[58] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[59] "Fomer guru on a different mission, Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

[MHomeBase-60] "Maharaj Ji Buys $400,000 Home Base in Malibu Area", JOHN DART, Los Angeles Times, Nov 27, 1974; p. B2

[LAT1979-61] Cite error: The named reference LAT1979 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

[62] "MALIBU Metamorphosis Is Hollywood's Haven Growing Into Just Another Miami Beach", NIKKI FINKE, Los Angeles Times, September 3, 1989

[63] "1-Year Trial OKd for Sect's Helipad" Los Angeles Times May 22, 1981; p. F6

[64] "Guru Maharaj Ji." Religious Leaders of America, 2nd ed. Gale Group, 1999. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Mich.: Gale, 2008. http://galenet.galegroup.com/servlet/BioRC

[65] "Fomer guru on a different mission, Rebecca Jones, Rocky Mountain News, January 30, 1998

[66] “Maharaji Ji: The Selling of a Guru, 1973”, by Gregg Killday, Los Angeles Times, November 13, 1973, pD1

[67] ”TV: Meditating on a Young Guru and His Followers”, by John O’Connor, New York Times, February 25, 1974

[”nytoz”-68] ”Oz In the Astrodome”, by Ted Morgan, New York Times, December 9, 1973

[nytmillenium-69] ”Gurus Followers Cheer Millenium in Festivities in Astrodome,” By Eleanor Blau, New York Times, November 12, 1973

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@@ Line 2,109: / Line 2,109: @@
 ::::"Head of Elan Vital". Wrong. "began Divine Light Mission in the 1970s when he was 13 years old". Wrong. "Since 1990, Rawat has reworked his image. Divine Light Mission has been replaced by the charitable organization Elan Vital". Wrong. And pretty much all the rest is ex-devotee's opinion.[[User:Momento|Momento]] ([[User talk:Momento|talk]]) 12:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 :::::Of course, at the time there wasn't a Wikipedia article on Prem Rawat yet, leave alone a reliable one. ;) --[[User:Francis Schonken|Francis Schonken]] ([[User talk:Francis Schonken|talk]]) 12:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
+::::::And there never will be a reliable one if we rely on tabloids.[[User:Momento|Momento]] ([[User talk:Momento|talk]]) 12:29, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
 ==Too much information==