Talk:Charles XI of Sweden

older comments

Removed: "His cruelty earned him the name of Charles the Peoplemurderer in Scania." What is the source of this statement, which I never have heard of? Den fjättrade ankan 23:10, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Removed: "Charles XI was however very harsh to the local population of occupied Scania, only 20 years earlier a Danish heartland, and in his diary it can be read that he had plans on deporting the population to Balticum." What is the source of this statement? Den fjättrade ankan 23:20, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

I put those sentences there, and my source was susning.nu. I can understand that you want a more reliable source; I'll try to see if I can find one. That statement needs a better and larger context anyway. ✏ Sverdrup 10:55, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

an addition:

I do however defend the inclusion of this information, since we have a policy of NPOV. Still today swedish history classes and textbooks are very POV, and not a good single source for a NPOV Wikipedia article. ✏ Sverdrup 11:03, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

NPOV does not mean presenting myths or factoids as facts. I don't agree that "swedish history classes and textbooks are very POV", at least not in a Swedish nationalist way, on the contrary, they are mostly NPOV, especially regarding nationalism. Most current Swedish historians are Marxists, anti-nationalistic, and anti-royalistics, and does not try to conceal cruelties of Swedish kings, on the contrary they try to exaggerate them. This talk about "Charles the Peoplemurderer" is never heard of. To me it sounds very much like the myth about Christian the Good. Den fjättrade ankan 18:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC) (Som finner det mycket märkligt att diskutera svenska förhållanden med en annan svensk på engelska. Jag tror knappast att någon annan än svenskar bryr sig om denna artikel. Men det är ju på engelska Wikipedia, så då måste man ju skriva på engelska.)

Danes and Skåninge might. Eradicating all mentions of the genocides Karl XI performed in Skåne (ordering every man between 16 and 60 killed, for example) is history revision that still seems to be taught in Swedish schools. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.109.246 (talk) 18:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

The statement has been reinserted, only high swedes from Stockholm or other northern parts try to deny the true history of Charles XI, the man hailed wrongfully as a hero up north is most certainly not down south, last evidence of this statement is the Scanian objections to the Swedish 500kr bill which had Charles XI's picture portrayed, calling him ' Charles Peoplemurderer'

Gentlemen, I do not believe "peoplemurderer" is a proper English word. I have failed to find it in any dictionary I own. The English word for "folkmord" is "genocide". Presumably, you can indicate the person making it by calling him "genocider". Concerning Charles XI's treatment of rebels supporting the Danish king in Nothern Skåne, he acted with very harsh, even terroristic counter-guerilla methods (such as holding entire villages responsible for acts of rebels in the vicinity and executing captured rebels in cruel ways). However, as far as I can make out this was entirely within the conventions of warfare at that time. As far as Charles XI was concerned, nominally Swedish people working for the Danish king were rebels and traitors and did not even enjoy the limited right granted to prisoners of war at that time. Most monarchs of this era facing a peasant rebellion would have used methods fairly similar to the ones used by Charles XI during the Danish war. -Sensemaker

A remarc: I think very few monarchs of this period can avoid being kalled massmurderers, if we use the modern definition. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 11:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Charles XI and domestication of moose

Long ago in various UseNet threads a few people came forward with the information that this king had sponsored an effort to domesticate moose for military use, presumably as attack cavalry - with sharpened horns, good for pack burdens, and potentially aggressive in the field; also twice the size of a war horse). Apparently they turned out to be useful for messengers only, and the project fell through because there weren't enough of them, and they're hard to breed in captivity...and according to the trivia section of the Moose article there were worries that they'd allow thieves and other criminals to outrun law enforcement types using only horses. Does anyone here know where a cite or further details for this would be found?Skookum1 02:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

GA Review

I am going to review this article. Kensplanet (talk) 17:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Checkout the Good article criteria here.

(1). Well written:
1 (a). the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
1 (b). it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.

(2). Factually accurate and verifiable:
2 (a). it provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;
2 (b). at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and
2 (c). it contains no original research.

(3). Broad in its coverage:
3 (a). it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and
3 (b). it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail

(4). Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.

(5). Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

(6). Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6 (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
6 (b). images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions

Comments

LEAD

• Charles XI (Swedish: Karl XI, 24 November 1655^{old style} – 5 April 1697^{old style}

It's a bit difficult for a user like me to understand what old style means. Instead of old style, wh don't you directly put Julian Calender. Anyway, not a major problem since that is indicated by the footnote.

• Charles XI was succeeded by the only son that reached adulthood, Charles XII, who made use of the well-trained army in battles throughout Europe.

Please copyedit this sentence.

I think the article satisfies good article criteria. The article will have to be more comprehensive for FA status. Good work for GA. I'll gladly promote this article. Thanks, Kensplanet (talk) 06:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, it is not a proper method to maintain the old style of date as its current date. While as a writer of history, one would want to include a referral to it, it should not be maintained as the actual date for the occurrence. So, I am noting here that it should be retained in the article but not in the format that it currently is. I am going to change this to reflect a more responsible presentation. Stevenmitchell (talk) 11:31, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

It is certainly standard to use the Julian calendar for times when it was in use. Cervantes and Shakespeare both died on April 23 1616, but over a week apart. As both England and Sweden were still using the Julian calendar during his lifetime, it is the appropriate calendar to use here. Compare e.g. his contemporary William III of England.

Andejons (talk) 14:50, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

His Mother

There should be a least something in the article about the fact that he was deply devoted to his mother his entire life: this was the reason to why his wife was put below his mother at court. It need only be one sentence. And here is one anecdote: During his first appearances in parliament, he talked only to the members of the government through her; he would whisper the questions he had to the parliament to her, and she would ask them loud and clear. reference: * Herman Lindqvist, Historien om Sverige: Storhet och Fall (History of Sweden; Greatness and fall) (in Swedish) This is a charming anecdote, which gives a personal and authentic feeling to it!--85.226.44.74 (talk) 15:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course, this is an important thing to mention, as it describes their relationship and her influence and position. I have reintroduced it. h--85.226.42.57 (talk) 10:56, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

No mention of the Skåne genocides?

I find it odd that a lengthy article about Karl XI has no mention whatsoever about the ethnic cleansing that was executed by Karl during the Scanian Wars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.109.246 (talk) 18:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Harly ethnic; the Swedish and Danes were of the same ethnicity. That was hardly unusual during that age, but should of course be mentioned in the article of the Scanian war. --85.226.44.74 (talk) 11:35, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Numeral, fluff etc

I had tightened up a paragraph about this king's numeral (XI) and removed such peacock/exaggerated words as "highly" and an irrelevant king's name and an unprecise term "in the line", and Swenglish such as "took their numbers" etc. This was reversed today with this summary: (Rv. Some of the early Swedish kings that carried names later kings also do are semi-mythological at best, that is). I have no idea what that means. Am reverting back to what I did on the 9th and ask that any further revisions of these details be explained clearly here. SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I consider Serge's version to be slightly better. However, I consider these long details on monarchs "real" number to often be superfluous, more so when it is put in the lead section.

Personally I wouldn't care if the king was, quote, "actually the 5th King Charles", or not. I think it would be worthy of a footnote and maybe a simple sentence in the lead...

Fred-J 20:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Appreciate your comment - thank you! - and your opinions. That's why I tried to shorten that a bit anyway. My experience is that many people wonder why some numberings do not jive, so to speak, and that some explanation is necessary. Especially when they ask who all those 16 were, based on the current king's unusually high numeral. Regards, SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:18, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

War of Devolution

There's no mention of Sweden entering the Triple Alliance during Charles' reign. It happened during the regency of Hedvig Eleonora but Hedvig's article doesn't mention it either.

Top.Squark (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Assimilation of the newest dominions

On the map it states Finland 1581. The treaty of Nöteborg is from 1323 when the border zone was demarcated from the Karelian Isthmus to the Gulf of Bothnia. In treaty of Teusina 1595, Sweden incorporated the modern day North-Savo, Kainuu, Northern Ostrobotnia, and the rest of Lapland. The map seems to be at least from a Finnish point of view severly out of place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.64.5.173 (talk) 07:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

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State of the corpse and lack of sainthood

The incorruptibility of corpes of Christian saints originated some centuries before the Middle Age. This free article testifies it was a living belief even in the 18th-century Protestant Sweden. Subject of king Charles XI asked themselves why their sovereign had been recognized in a physiological state opposite to the one pertaining Christian saints. 1719 was the year of the crisis of European absolutism.

If it seems not to be an useful end of the WP article, then the section can be eventually moved to the previous paragraph related to the king's death.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Eric XIV of Sweden which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 01:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 13 January 2024

• Charles XI of Sweden → Charles XI
• Charles XII of Sweden → Charles XII

– There are no Charles XIs and Charles XIIs as kings of countries other than Sweden. 176.33.241.125 (talk) 08:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support, per WP:AT policy ("titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that") and WP:NCROY guideline ("only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed") as well as consistency with other unambiguously named Swedish kings (Carl XVI Gustaf, Gustaf VI Adolf, Gustaf V, etc). Surtsicna (talk) 09:46, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support as per nom.--SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:31, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
• oppose 'Name number country' is still the best title in terms of clarity and recognizabllity, especially when getting high number monarchs where readers won't know when the numbers stop applying to a given country—blindlynx 18:01, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support, and I'll add that we can move Charles X Gustav of Sweden → Charles X Gustav by the same reasoning. 162 etc. (talk) 19:48, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Agree. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Unambiguous numbering. Also support the proposal by @162 etc.. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:11, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Not an improvement. Not sufficiently recognizable, per WP:COMMONAME. Most English language general works refer to him as "of Sweden" or "King of Sweden" e.g. it is informative to look at indexes of general works (where a name must stand alone and be concise); indexes almost never refer to him as "Charles XI" by itself, but almost always include "of Sweden" : [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30], [31], [32] etc. Walrasiad (talk) 22:36, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Indexes commonly use descriptive terms. For example, your number 7 uses Cyclades (island) whereas Wikipedia uses just Cyclades and even England, Britain instead of just England. Wikipedia is a digital encyclopedia and is thus able to do things differently, more efficiently. Its policy is to not define the subject in the article title. Surtsicna (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. Almost all indexes above are perfectly concise. They are clear evidence of recognizability and WP:COMMONNAME in general English-language works. All indexes treat "of Sweden" as essential for recognition by readers. Walrasiad (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

You may call it nonsense but it's plain to see: one says England, Britain instead of England; one says Cyclades (island) instead of Cyclades; one says Childebert I (Frankish king) whereas we say just Childebert I; one says Demetrius of Pharos (ruler of Illyria) whereas Wikipedia says simply Demetrius of Pharos; one says Isaac II Angelus (Byzantine emperor) whereas we say simply Isaac II Angelos, etc. The description found in indexes is, as we can see, not essential to have in Wikipedia article titles; Wikipedia puts such descriptions in short descriptions rather than in article titles. Surtsicna (talk) 17:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

There are loads of Charles, with numbers largely unmemorable. As indexes show, "of Sweden" disambiguates and makes them more recognizable. This proposal is not an improvement, but detriment to readers. Walrasiad (talk) 17:35, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there are loads of Charles, but the proposal is not to move to Charles. It is to move to Charles XI, which is unambiguous and therefore requires no disambiguation. Everyone who is familiar with Charles XI will recognize that the article named Charles XI is about Charles XI; therefore the proposed title satisfies WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. Surtsicna (talk) 17:43, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Not a household name to English-speaking readers to be on first name basis only. This is not Cher. Ordinals are not very memorable - whether he is XI or IX or Xi Jinping's cousin is hardly memorable. That's why of "of Sweden" improves recognizability. It effectively serves as a surname. That's why "of Sweden" is included in indexes - recognizability. It's their WP:COMMONNAME. Walrasiad (talk) 18:11, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

"Household name" and "memorability" are not naming criteria. Félix Faure is not a household name to English-speaking readers either, yet we do not have him under Félix Faure of France. And while SergeWoodzing is far better versed in Swedish royal surnames, I can assure you that "of Sweden" is not, cannot, and should not be seen as a surname or anything of the sort. Surtsicna (talk) 18:24, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree 100%. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Felix Faure has a surname. Dropping "Faure" and reducing him to "Felix Francois" would reduce recognizability. Which is what you're proposing here. Walrasiad (talk) 18:32, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, exactly! Calling him "Felix Francois" instead of "Félix Faure" would be against WP:RECOGNIZABILITY because people familiar with Faure would not recognize it. Meanwhile people familiar with Charles XI will recognize that the article titled Charles XI is about Charles XI. Finally we are dealing with the term recognizability as defined at WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. Surtsicna (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

And "of Sweden" is his surname here. His middle name "Xi" is not so memorable or recognizable. His daughters are "Hedvig Sophia of Sweden" and "Ulrika Eleonora of Sweden". They get to keep their surnames, their father's house, "of Sweden". So should he. Walrasiad (talk) 18:53, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

No, "of Sweden" is not a surname. And "XI" is not a middle name. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Serves the same functional purpose as a surname. Just like your surname or mine - it identifies their father's house. Walrasiad (talk) 22:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

If anyone sees "of Sweden" as being anything like a surname, it is all the more reason to move these articles. Surtsicna (talk) 11:22, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

As shown above in indexes for RSs, they all think it is necessary. It is part of their WP:COMMONNAME. Walrasiad (talk) 11:56, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

No, indexes show no such thing. Firstly, they do not call them "of Sweden" but "(king of Sweden)"; secondly, indexes do the same for topics like England, which, in a case you showed up there, they call England, Britain. Wikipedia has short descriptions for those purposes. Surtsicna (talk) 12:20, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. "of Sweden" in some form or other is part of his WP:COMMONNAME not only in general works, as proved in the indexes above, but also the article titles in works of encyclopedic reference (the Wikipedia standard) e.g. Britannica, Columbia, etc. Walrasiad (talk) 02:16, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

The vast majority of sources refer to him as "Charles XI", as they do with all monarchs. Introductions often specify "of Sweden", but then drop it immediately and stick with either "Charles XI" or simply "Charles". Same thing in Swedish sources, I should add.

Note that both of the works you've linked very explicitly refer to "Charles XI", both in-line and in the title. The added "of Sweden" is added to clarify his royal title, just like with Elizabeth II and Napoleon. Peter ^Isotalo 12:19, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Napoleon & Elizabeth II are household names to general English-speaking audiences - that is, Wikipedia readers - and consequently more easily WP:RECOGNIZABLE. "Charles XI" is not. Article titles have to stand alone and without context. Article titles are not running text - they are the moment of introduction of a name. Works that refer to Bill Clinton, start by introducing him as "Bill Clinton" before they move on to refer to him simply as "Bill" or "Clinton" thereafter alone. So "Bill Clinton", not simply Bill, is his WP:COMMONNAME. As provided by evidence given above, demonstrated aplenty in works above - English-language works of general reference, both in articles and indexes, which are concise, "Charles XI" never stands alone, but always includes "of Sweden" in the title. That's his WP:COMMONNAME. Walrasiad (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

You are actively misrepresenting your "evidence" as far as I can tell. Peter ^Isotalo 20:12, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Misinterpreting how? You admit it yourself, that when he's introduced it is always "of Sweden". He is not recognizable without it. I provided evidence of that. Walrasiad (talk) 11:17, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose It should be standard to always include the country in the titles of Monarchs. --Marbe166 (talk) 00:17, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

This was discussed in September (See above), and the result was not moved. --Marbe166 (talk) 11:42, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

In the September discussion WP:NCROY was cited against the move. But in November there was "a strong consensus" to change WP:NCROY because it did not match WP:Article title policy. The move as proposed now matches both WP:NCROY and WP:AT policy. Surtsicna (talk) 15:03, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support As per nom. Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 16:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Not an improvement. Dimadick (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
• Comment - I've asked this at WP:NCROY but got little response, so I'll ask it here. Are consorts & heirs apparent/presumptive next? Will Queen Silvia of Sweden be moved to Queen Silvia or Silvia? Will Victoria, Crown Princess of Sweden be re-named Crown Princess Victoria? GoodDay (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

  Silvia is a page for the name in general, with a rather large list of people with that name, so the odds of the Queen's page being moved to that is highly unlikely. The argument you're making is a bit of a slippery slope fallacy. 2601:249:9301:D570:64DF:D866:61C7:7E28 (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

  None of those individuals have unambiguous regnal names, so I don't think a move is likely. It may only happen in cases where the name 'and' title is unique. In the cases of Queen Silvia and Queen Letizia, there have been no queens with those names so it is possible to drop the territorial designations. I'm not saying that I would necessarily support such a move but rather making an observation. Keivan.f^Talk 02:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Well it may not be the biggest problem on Wikipedia, but I still think we should stick to pre-emptive disambiguation in cases like this. PatGallacher (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Treating "Charles X" and "Charles XI" as both unambiguous but for different kingdoms strikes me as a reductio of this approach. Srnec (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

  This seems a lot like WP:OTHERSTUFF. I'm also very skeptical about calling Charles X unambiguous since Charles X Gustav is most commonly known as just "Charles X" or "Karl X". I'm not sure exactly why Swedish kings got the added "Gustav" moniker, but it has no relevance to the numbering and is usually excluded when referring to them, both in Swedish and English. Peter ^Isotalo 12:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - discussed before and rejected. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 21:28, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose It would seem strange for "Charles X" to be used solely for the French king, but "Charles XI" to be used solely for the Swedish king. UmbrellaTheLeef (talk) 14:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support If there are no other "Charles XI", the disambiguation is just pointless filler. No different than Elizabeth II, really. Peter ^Isotalo 12:07, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. the proposed titles are not ambiguous. I do think that perhaps Charles X ought to be at Charles X of France but that is outside the scope of this RM. Bensci54 (talk) 17:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support no other ambiguous titles and satisfies both WP:CONCISE and WP:COMMONNAME. No legitimate opposition really.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:58, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Sufficient and recognizable. Also consistent with Charles X Gustav, Charles XIII, Charles XIV John and Charles XV. Andejons (talk) 06:25, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose – Per UmbrellaTheLeef. The Swedish royal line is definitely not the most notable on the planet, the detailing is essential for those who are not used to monarchies. Svartner (talk) 01:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support removing unnecessary disambiguation, in line with applicable policy and guidelines. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rosbif73 (talk • contribs) 08:23, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom and all the arguments, points, and retorts made by Surtsicna, which are among the strongest I’ve ever seen in any RM discussion. But they’re really shooting fish in a barrel, because Opposition has no policy basis here. We have no mandate to make our topics recognizable from titles to all users; only to users familiar with the topic; a requirement which the proposed title meets. RECOGNIZABLE ✅, CONCISE ✅, COMMONNAME ✅, CONSISTENCY ✅. The current title is unnecessary disambiguation. No contest. —-В²C ☎ 07:25, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. For CONSISTENCY and RECOGNISABILITY, all non-English kings should use “of <realm>”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:32, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

  On what grounds do you believe we should ignore WP:SOVEREIGN for non-English kings only? Surely that would raise huge WP:WORLDVIEW and WP:NPOV issues? Rosbif73 (talk) 07:46, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

  NOTE TO CLOSER: All opposition citing “recognizability” here is not policy-based. The WP:RECOGNIZABILITY guideline is met when the title is recognizable to someone familiar with the subject. The proposed title meets this requirement. Opposers like SmokeyJoe cite RECOGNISABILITY as if titles should be recognizable to all users. That’s not a policy-based argument. It’s WP:JDLI. Please weigh it accordingly. — В²C ☎ 18:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Nonsense. I am familiar with the topic, and it would not be recognizable to me. And as demonstrated in RS index evidence provided above, reliable sources include "of Sweden" in some form, demonstrating RS's agree it is essential for recognizability. I'd hope the closer would discount assertions made by supporters above who have not provided any evidence whatsoever for their claims. Walrasiad (talk) 05:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Talk about nonsense. Anyone familiar with Charles XI would recognize Charles XI from Charles XI. What’s next, you can’t recognize Tom Cruise from Tom Cruise so we have to move it to Tom Cruise (actor)? You know, to be helpful to readers and ensure it’s RECOGNIZABLE? After all, there are other Tom Cruises. How are readers to know Tom Cruise doesn’t refer to one of them? (/sarcasm) Please! Besides, Ngrams show that “of Sweden” is obscure. — В²C ☎ 06:49, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Without the "of Sweden" prompt, I have no idea who you're talking about. There are Charlies with ordinals all over the place. You're not merely requiring people who know (and remember the number of) this Swedish king, you're requiring people to also know there isn't a Charles XI in Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Pomerania, Saxony, etc. The information requirement is enormous. I write a lot of history, but I don't have numerals of every monarch in every country, duchy and county in Europe memorized. And I expect Wikipedia readers are not better versed than me. "Of Sweden" improves it instantly. Which is why RS's use it, as shown in the evidence given above. Sarcasm and "Please" is not evidence. Walrasiad (talk) 10:02, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

You’re entitled to your opinion. But consensus established at NCROY is clear: “Only use a territorial designation (e.g. country) when disambiguation is needed.” The fact that Charles XI redirects here establishes that the disambiguation with territorial designation is not needed. Your opinion is out of line with community consensus, and repeatedly presenting it otherwise is bordering on disruption. — В²C ☎ 14:58, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per Walrasiad et al. One of the main problems I'm seeing in this and other similarly contentious recent RMs is the suggestion that the most concise title must be the best title, but that's not consistent with WP:AT. As others have already noted here and elsewhere, Cézanne is more concise than Paul Cézanne; 110th Congress is more concise than 110th United States Congress; Missoula is more concise than Missoula, Montana. Yet in innumerable cases Wikipedia uses a less concise alternative because there are other relevant factors that policy insists we consider which make the less concise form the better/preferable one.

  This case seems no different. Charles XI is certainly more concise than Charles XI of Sweden, but removing the clarifier leaves a title that’s insufficiently precise and recognizable. Speaking for myself as someone who’s familiar with (but certainly no expert in) European royalty, I would know the title refers to a monarch but would not know which one. Nor if I see Charles X and Charles XI would I recognize that these are monarchs of entirely different countries — and I don't see that introducing that confusion and uncertainty helps our readers in any way. Further, a quick search suggests the country is indeed often included when referencing the monarch.

  Per Wikipedia policy, "the choice of article titles should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists." I see nothing to suggest that the proposed title does this. ╠╣uw [talk] 16:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

  Like Walrasiad, you’re entitled to your opinion, but you present an argument and perspective here that was soundly rejected by a strong consensus at NCROY. That is, the proposed title is consistent with AT, and it neither favors nor disfavors anyone. Readers, editors and specialists are all equally totally unaffected by which of these titles prevails, except in one way: bringing titles better in line with CRITERIA including CONCISE and PRECISE (only as precise as necessary) stabilizes our titles so more time can be spent on matters that do improve the encyclopedia, for everyone. Having outliers like NCROY used to be, and USPLACE still is, where titles are unnecessarily disambiguated, is contrary to title stabilization. Your use of Missoula, Montana as a precedent that applies here for justifying unnecessary disambiguation exemplifies why USPLACE is problematic. That said, at least there they can argue (weakly imho) that including the state is not disambiguation but is part of the COMMONNAME. But for “of country” in NCROY titles that excuse for inclusion has been explicitly rejected by community consensus. —В²C ☎ 17:00, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The sharp uptick in contentious or failed RMs related to the change to NCROY doesn’t suggest to me that the articles are becoming more stable, or more consistent, or less time-consuming. It also doesn't suggest that the consensus for the change is as strongly embraced by the community as you claim. When RMs seek to apply a guideline but can’t garner sufficient consensus for it (as in recent NCROY-related RMs for Edwards, Christians, etc.), that's a useful form of feedback that can prompt a reappraisal of the guideline itself.

As you recently said, “often the only way to gain consensus for a guideline change is to establish precedent showing consensus for contradicting the existing guideline at least in some particular cases.” ╠╣uw [talk] 18:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Where have recent RMs related to complying with last year’s NCROY changes failed? —В²C ☎ 19:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The RMs cited failed primarily because they bundled 7 and 14 monarchs, respectively, in single discussions despite some being unambiguous and others primary topics. A WP:TRAINWRECK was no surprise. Several of the articles concerned have since been moved in smaller RMs. Rosbif73 (talk) 19:54, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that’s what I thought. So the claim for lack of consensus about using “of country” only when necessary for disambiguation is without basis. — В²C ☎ 19:57, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

...except for all the basis. Quite seriously, you can see for yourself (as I also encourage others to) that the objections in failed RMs for royal names like Edward, Richard, or Christian were much the same as those being raised here -- insufficient recognizability, insufficient precision, the commonness of attaching the country, unhelpfulness for the reader, etc. -- and the result was quite clearly no consensus for those changes, NCROY notwithstanding. This is why we've retained Edward I of England, Edward II of England, Edward III of England, Richard II of England, Edward IV of England, Edward V of England, Richard III of England, Christian I of Denmark, Christian II of Denmark, Christian III of Denmark, Christian IV of Denmark, Christian V of Denmark, Christian VI of Denmark, Christian VII of Denmark, Christian VIII of Denmark, Christian IX of Denmark, and Christian X of Denmark.

As the Edward closer notes, "proponents of both viewpoints correctly marshal points of policy in favor of their preference". Some wrongly suggest that there's only one correct understanding of how to weight and apply our WP:CRITERIA or interpret policy, but that's clearly not so, as these discussions make clear. ╠╣uw [talk] 20:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Rosbif73 explained why those failed. —В²C ☎ 22:45, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per Britannica these don't appear even to be ambiguous but anyway are primary at least as the titles already redirect here. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:51, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

The Britannica article you linked to is titled "Charles XII, King of Sweden". That would be evidence against the proposal. Walrasiad (talk) 19:24, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

An obvious typo is evidence against the proposal? 🙄 fixed. The same typo can be made just as easily if your unnecessary disambiguation is included in the title. — В²C ☎ 19:41, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

That was reference for the 2nd page namely Charles XII of Sweden. I didn't find the one for Charles XI (this page) but B2C has now provided it. The "King of Sweden" appears to be a subtitle much like our short descriptions so still supports the article title should use the shorter form. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:03, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

No, a lede is a lede, it is not an article title nor subtitle. Britannica also has a lede with descriptions. Wikipedia articles don't have the benefit of subtitles. Which is why "of Sweden" has to serve that function here. You have provided definite evidence confirming that "Charles XI" is not recognizable by itself. Walrasiad (talk) 20:38, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Your desperation to defend opposition is now descended to utter nonsense. Brittanica uses subtitles on all their articles, including for all the ones where our corresponding articles don’t have disambiguated titles, like Elizabeth I/Elizabeth I. A subtitle in a Brittanica article is zero basis for including that, or anything else, as disambiguation in our corresponding article title. Didn’t you learn from the Ferdinand I RM experience which I just became aware of? In that case the closer found consensus to move even though 8 of the 11 participants, including you, opposed. Why? Because opposition had no argument, none!, based on policy. Just like here. And, yes, it went to MR where the valid close was endorsed, and soundly. And yet you persist with the same vacuous position here and similar RMs. You are aware of what is said about “doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result”, I trust. — В²C ☎ 22:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

When a Wikipedia editor references a work, I expect them to have read it. If he misquotes what it says, then it should be pointed out, and give him a chance to correct himself - whether it is revising his statement, or finding another source. The article title in Britannica is clearly and unambiguously "Charles XI, King of Sweden". That is not about feelings or opinions, it is a fact. Not sure what you're on about. Walrasiad (talk) 23:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)