Talk:Julian Assange

Journalism in the lead

@Richard-of-Earth: i noted your removal of Spoilerceaser (talk · contribs)'s add to the lead. We did indeed reach consensus that this term would not be used in teh first sentence of the lead. However, there was a lot of support for this content to be in the lead in some way and that was summarized in the close. I have added that to the lead in the 3rd paragraph in a neutral way. I think we should be doing something to add this to the lead given the continued interest by editors to have it there. This content is clearly WP:DUE in the lead, as we are summarizing the key point of notoriety of this subject. We can run another RFC on this if you feel it shouldn't be there. I think this can also reasonable assuage the editors that are seeking to the be the lead, but dont know that we already have had an rfc on it (as you correctly point out). Spoilerceaser, please do not keep adding this to the first sentence, you will likely get a ban for it if you continue. Hopefully this is enough to meet your goals, noting this is a somewhat controversial point on this article (an already controversial article). Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:54, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

The consensus was to not to describe Assange as a journalist in Wikipedia's voice. That is the current consensus and I think it applies to anywhere on Wikipedia. Your edit does not violate that and I have no objection to it. Spoilerceaser, your edit does. You added it to the short description which is in Wikipedia's voice. I reverted and told you why and then you just did it again with no discussion or rationalization. So I have reverted it again. It is not edit warring on my part to enforce the consensus of an RFC nor to remove disruptive editing. As editors we are suppose to be working together to improve Wikipedia. I personally do not care for Assange and I do not think he should be described as a journalist. However, I feel he should be afforded the same protection that journalists receive for his actions in regard to Wikileaks as a publisher and contact point for whistleblowers. It is not like he was selling this information to the enemies of any state or using the information for extortion. The way he is being treated is shameful and an abuse of the justice system that is suppose to protect us, not suppress freedom of the press. He is still not a journalist as far as I am concern. Richard-of-Earth (talk)

Enough time has passed to raise an RfC to change the consensus if you like. NadVolum (talk) 09:38, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I dont see any reason to challenge the RFC consensus relating to the short description and I didnt change that in my edit. Is Assage today more referred to as a journalist than he was a few years ago? I dont follow the news on this enough to know, but I am guessing nothing much has changed. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 12:55, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

We can have another RFC, but until the old one is overturned it stands. Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

What is your reasoning for not calling him a journalist? I at a loss here. It does seem to me that he meets every criterion that someone should meet in order to be called a journalist. 94.205.38.119 (talk) 14:57, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

We had an RFC saying we should not say it. But one reason stated was not everyone agrees he is a journalist. Slatersteven (talk) 15:03, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Please look at Talk:Julian Assange/Archive 17#Request for Comment - Journalist. Have you some new point to make? it would be best to discuss that first. Even if not if you feel a new RfC could overturn that decision you are certainly welcome to open one as plenty of time has passed since then. NadVolum (talk) 15:13, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Can someone please point me to the points raised earlier? I cannot find any? All i can see is a single paragraph where someone seems to say that they dont believe he is a journalist without qualifying it in any way. Surely the reputation of someone who, regardless of what you may think of him, lost a decade if his life because of his work in journalism, shouldn't tarnished without atleast a proper argument. 94.205.38.119 (talk) 16:31, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Read the NO votes. Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Has there ever been a journalist with more awards and accolades? No. Explore this interactive map showcasing Julian Assange’s awards for journalism, local honours and accolades: https://freeassange.org/free-assange-interactive-map/ --91.54.26.201 (talk) 05:37, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

This is exactly what i was saying. He has published more consequential news stories than the new york times has in the past 100 years. It is absured that we are not calling him a journalist. 94.205.38.119 (talk) 20:10, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

he doesnt publish stories Softlem (talk) 13:30, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I find it entitely absurd that a man who has won as many journalism awards isnt good enough to be considered a journalist by wikipedia https://freeassange.org/free-assange-interactive-map/

. I woild like to propose that we vote on this again 94.205.38.119 (talk) 20:14, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

We have already discussed this above. You can start a new RfC.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:23, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

the lead says Assange has won multiple awards for publishing and journalism. Softlem (talk) 13:45, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

• As much as I would support using the term journalist in the lead, I more support our existing wikipedia norms which would indicate that we need another RFC to overturn a previous RFC, especially on a contentious matter in which nothing has really changed. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:56, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Statement related to Afghani informants

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Numerically, I count 13 support !votes to 7 oppose !votes. While discussions on Wikipedia are not a vote, the headcount is not irrelevant either. Supporters generally argued that this is a well-sourced allegation and including it would be due weight; they provided numerous sources to bolster their arguments. There is not much more to say about the arguments in support, besides restating that they were comfortably in the majority. Opposers argued that the reliability of the sources is in doubt due to the legal dispute, and further that including the quote would be undue weight. They also raised BLP concerns, which is something I have paid special attention to. However, many of the concerns they raised are "fixable": objections to not knowing the precise wording (because the end product might be undue weight), or that including the quote without further context would be undue (the latter concern was also shared by many supporters). Given these objections are surmountable, combined with the strong numerical majority in support, there is consensus to include the quote alongside appropriate context, inline attribution (not in wikivoice), and Assange's denial. (non-admin closure) HouseBlaster (talk · he/him) 02:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

---

In Julian Assange#Iraq and Afghan War logs, in relation to whether the names of Afghani informants should be redacted prior to the publication of the logs, should the allegation that Assange said the following be included?

Well, they’re informants, so if they get killed, they’ve got it coming to them. They deserve it.

If included, it would be attributed to David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding. 02:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Support. This allegation was made by multiple individuals present at the meeting and was widely reported on, both in news (CBS, The Atlantic, NBC, ABC, The Times Washington Post, The Guardian, CNN, the Telegraph, DW, Financial Times, the Nation, the New Republic, Agence France-Presse, South China Morning Post. etc) and scholarly (WikiLeaks and mega-plumbing issues – unresolved dilemmas revisited by Rodney Tiffen, Wikileaks: Information Messiah or Global Terrorist? by Ben Saul, WikiLeaks 2010: A Glimpse of the Future? by Tim Maurer, etc) sources; it warrants inclusion per WP:BALASP.

Assange disputes it, as does John Goetz, but the fact that the allegation has been denied has little bearing on whether we should include it under WP:NPOV - and I note that a number of the sources I've provided state that it happened in their own voice. In addition, Goetz's statements are suspect; he also claimed that he told Patrick Forbes of this prior to the release of WikiLeaks: Secrets and Lies, but both Patrick Forbes and Channel 4 deny this, with Channel 4 adding "It would be difficult for Mr Goetz to state categorically that Mr Assange did not say these words, particularly when taking into account that the restaurant (Moro) was busy and noisy and the dinner did not take place in a private room." BilledMammal (talk) 02:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose At the time Leigh and Harding made these claims, they were in a public and a legal dispute with Assange over the issue of redaction. This was specifically over recklessness with regard to security as WikiLeaks held Leigh and Harding responsible for the full cable files being made public, after Leigh and Harding published the complete password to a file holding the original cables in a book. An encyclopaedia is not a place to report mudslinging in disputes between journalists. And as per WP:NOTNEWS, we don't need to include specific and contested allegations made in such disputes.

Both the article subject and Der Spiegel journalist John Goetz deny the purported statement was ever made, Assange's denial noted in several of the sources above and is reported in the London Review of Books – and Goetz's in Harper's Magazine. As Ofcom note: "In the [signed affidavit] statement Mr Goetz said that he was asked "specifically [in an interview with the programme maker which was not recorded] if Julian Assange had made the remark "they're informants they deserve to die" at that dinner, as has been alleged by David Leigh, and I told him that Julian did not say that at the dinner. I told Patrick Forbes [the director of the programme] that I would not discuss the dinner on camera, because it was a private dinner and it is the policy of 'Der Spiegel' not to discuss meetings in a public forum" Goetz's denial and signed legal affidavit indicate Leigh and Harding's claim is contested by attendees of this dinner.

Claims made by those in a legal dispute with the article subject - closely related to that dispute and denied by the article subject and others - are not encyclopaedic content. A legal representative (who was not present) acting to defend Channel Four to the regulator makes the unevidenced claim that it was too noisy for Goetz to hear the conversation - this obviously partial opinion is of negligible value, and in the larger context of an encyclopaedia article can be disregarded. The fact is Leigh and Harding's claim is an allegation made by those with an obvious motive to be derogatory about the article subject's attitude toward redaction because of their ongoing disagreement and legal tangle. That's not for an encyclopaedia. Cambial — foliar❧ 03:10, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The claim was also made by Declan Walsh - and as far as I can tell, he was not in a legal dispute with the subject. In addition, neither "claim was disputed" nor "claim was made by an individual in a legal dispute with the party" are reasons to exclude the content under any policy that I am aware of - I would also suggest that connecting the legal dispute over the accidental release of the decryption key is WP:OR, as I haven't found any reliable sources that do so.

What is policy is WP:BALASP, and per the examples I provided above this is a sufficiently significant piece of information and warrants mentioning in the article. BilledMammal (talk) 03:27, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The policy on "balancing aspects" detracts from an appeal to inclusion. As the policy notes: a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. That's exactly the case here: The Guardian and Assange had fallen out significantly; they were no longer working together and a legal tangle was in progress. Various accusations were made on both sides, few if any of which can be stated with certainty. They're not important to the story of someone's life, and disproportionate for an encyclopaedia article. Cambial — foliar❧ 03:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Their overall significance to the topic is assessed by their treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. I've provided a long list of sources that report on these allegations - some published at the time, others years later - that establish that this is sufficiently significant to mention. Indeed, it has received more coverage - is of greater overall significance as assessed by its treatment in reliable sources - than much of the content currently in the article. BilledMammal (talk) 04:00, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support: This article includes allegations made about Assange as well as allegations made by Assange. It is original research to say the journalist lied because of a "legal tangle". This is a significant claim about Assange and should be included.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

PS I think Assange's denial should be included too.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support per BilledMammal, this has been reported on by quite a number of reliable publications and the allegation has been made by multiple individuals at the meeting. TarnishedPath^talk 05:21, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support. It seems to have wide coverage. The words should be attributed and Assange's denial should be mentioned too. Alaexis_¿question? 09:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support. However I think the whole thing should be dealt with in some detail. I am concerned that under 'Claim by Leigh and Harding' where @BilledMammal: says 'I don't think it's appropriate, per WP:BLP, to say There's good evidence Leigh lied - as far as I can tell, there is no evidence of this, just the claim of Goetz and Assange. Will you please strike it?' One or the other lied and that is pretty evident and then they go on to say 'Meanwhile, Goetz's claim is suspect;...'. Leigh does not claim to have heard it himself even though he was supposed to be at the dinner - he attributes it in the book to Declan Walsh who has not as far as I know ever said anything publicly about it. Declan Walsh is also alleged to have said 'There was, for a moment, silence around the table. I think everyone was struck by what a callous thing that was to say.' So Goetz would definitely have known about it if it happened - there was supposed to be only five of them there. Anything about the restaurant being noisy is just stuff made up after - or as well? Also the business of Nick Davis then saying it was in Stockholm when he met Assange, what arew e to make of that? And talking about being careful when Leigh disclosed the password without talking to anyone and there's good evidence Assange was very careful about redaction, that's just silly. As to who is most believable check up on [1] and then see what other newspapers say about its veracity. NadVolum (talk) 10:06, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UNDUE. The OR policy would say that the article should not connect the dispute over the Assange quote to the separate legal dispute between the same parties unless there's RS that connects them. However, the OR policy does not say that editors cannot use what we know about sources to evaluate them (even if we don't have RS that discusses the reliability of those sources). That is, we're allowed to take the legal dispute into account as a reason to question the reliability of the opposing party's version of what Assange allegedly said. It's also possible that Assange said something on the subject that some people thought was callous and similar to the statement they later attributed to him. In other words, it's very possible that the statement is not a complete fabrication, but rather an exaggeration that turns their interpretation of Assange's words (whatever they were) into a direct quote. The disagreement over whether or not Assange really said something offensive at a social gathering, for which the evidence is murky, is undue content. NightHeron (talk) 10:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support it is covered by MANY reasonable sources, and the reasons provided by @BilledMammal LegalSmeagolian (talk) 00:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UNDUE. The seventeen words proposed for addition don't come close to contextualize this information for our readers. And to leave out the denial(s)?? That goes against BLP, which explicitly states: If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too. This kind of one-sided reporting gives undue weight to a particular view, and should be rejected. Isaidnoway (talk) 03:28, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  To clarify; no specific wording is proposed, just whether we should include the quote. I agree that if there is a consensus to include it we should include the fact that Assange denies it - and I note several of the other support !voters have said as much. I think this addresses your concerns? BilledMammal (talk) 09:29, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  My comment/!vote was in response to the specific question asked of this RfC. And without knowing what the specific wording would be to make an informed decision on weight, due or undue, context, npov, blp; no, my concerns have not been addressed and I still oppose. Honestly, I just don't see how including this disputed allegation helps our reader have a better understanding of Assange. In my view, conflicting reports from two or more parties on this contentious allegation is not encyclopedic content. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:29, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• Neutral It seems to be that this opinion is as notable as many others we have here, the article is too long, but stuff keeps getting added. So I am neutral, we need to triumn opinions not add them. Slatersteven (talk) 11:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support, but I agree with Alaexis: words should be attributed and Assange's denial should be mentioned. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 15:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. Perhaps if the proposer had started a pre-RfC discussion we could have worked out a way of dealing with this. I am not willing to give an editor carte-blanche to shoe-horn the possibly imaginary statement into Assange's bio without ensuring there is some context. Attributing the claim to David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding is not sufficient. Firstly, Harding was not at the dinner so his view means nothing. Secondly, the RfC statement makes no reference to Assange and John Goetz, both of whom said Assange made no such statement at the dinner. When adding Assange and Goetz' statements to the bio, we would need to use appropriate wording. Saying something like "Leigh, Harding and Walsh said Assange was a callous bastard. Assange and Goetz denied this" would be great for the US security state and a boost for their extradition case (assuming anyone bothers to read or take anything here seriously) but would breach the guidelines at words to watch by implying culpability. So, without having a guarantee that this important context would be included in any resulting edit, it would be safer to leave the claim out. Burrobert (talk) 17:04, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  More accurately I think Leigh and Harding said that Declan Walsh said and cite their book. NadVolum (talk) 20:46, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  The sources I've seen say Leigh also heard it, including the ofcam statement where they are quoting Leigh. BilledMammal (talk) 20:53, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  It does not say that, it says Declan Walsh supports Leigh statement but what that means I don't know, did anyone talk to him? and Leigh was the fact checker for the program. Anyway I found a version of the program at [2] and I've been trying to find the bit that was being complained about but I can't, can somebody else point out the relevant bit thanks? The closest I can find is Assange giving a talk and saying about the problem of Wikileaks not being able to redact the information and saying it probably would still be worth releasing it despite the damage it would cause. Basically the major reason the cooperation was needed. NadVolum (talk) 23:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

  David Leigh of the Guardian newspaper tells FRONTLINE of meetings he attended with Assange in the run-up to publication of the war logs. "And we said: 'Julian, we've got to do something about these redactions. We really have got to.' And he said: 'These people were collaborators, informants. They deserve to die.' And a silence fell around the table."

  There are similar statements in the ofcam report.

  I didn't realise previously, but the claim is also corroborated by Nick Davies; Davies alleged that WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange told him: "They deserve to die, they are informers, they are collaborators." BilledMammal (talk) 01:11, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

  I had a look at [3] and it is quite interesting. David Leigh was there but says nothing like that. You've got Daniel Domscheit-Berg saying he did not think the diplomatic cables should be released - but he is implicated in later showing the link between the encryption key and the file. You have Assange saying they promised to publish everything that they were given - which is an absurd promise if it included endangering people unnecessarily. What is most concerning is that the newspapers had such a hands off attitude that they would not concern themselves with helping redact what was in WikiLeaks - only what they printed - they just worried about lawyers not people. It does look like Assange probably did say something that could be construed like the allegation - but meant something different so Goetz was also right. At Frontline Julian Assange directly refutes the assertion when Martin Smith puts it to him. However unfortunately Martin Smith repeatedly interrups him when he tries to say anything more about it. On something like that if a person says 'Oh I'll explain' one should let them go ahead instead of interrupting. I'd have like to have seen what the 'rhetorical trick' was about. There's no way Assange repeated what he said so exactly like that to Nick Davies, perhaps one of them got it from the other? NadVolum (talk) 17:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

  There is what appears to be a more complete transcript available @NadVolum:. I don't want to clog up this survey section with text so will comment in the discussion section below. Burrobert (talk) 14:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

  Finally at least one real-world instance of where you don't seem interested in engaging with the arguments. Cambial — foliar❧ 12:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

• Neutral What Slatersteven said Softlem (talk) 11:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per BilledMammal JM (talk) 02:38, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose & Malformed I am opposing since I dont understand the context. I might support if I could understand the context, but since there is no diff I cant understand the point of this. Also we have the BLP subject that denied this statement according to isaidnoway. Lets get more clarification to find out if this is due or not. As it is now, it is controversial and thus appears UNDUE. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 07:43, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Disconnected from the context, which is already not that much in the article. There is barely any explanation of what happened. This seems undue, at least in the current state. Senorangel (talk) 03:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. This is an important comment defining personal views of the subject, and it is well sourced to multiple RS. My very best wishes (talk) 04:13, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Due weight evidenced by scale of RS coverage. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:19, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support There are more than enough secondary sources to verify this quote and certainly enough sources implore Wikipedia's coverage of it but I am also understanding to those editors who say that the quote deserves more context including any possible doubts or responses or denials Jorahm (talk) 18:20, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
• OpposeClearly, whether or not this statement was actually made is a matter of contention. Though there are secondary sources that supposedly verify the quote, it's clear from this discussion alone that its veracity is still in doubt. Therefore, I would err on the side of caution and not include it.Coalcity58 (talk) 23:45, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support, though of course with attribution and including Assange's denials to the extent that they're covered in the sources. There's more than enough high-quality coverage to satisfy WP:BLP and establish that this is WP:DUE. --Aquillion (talk) 18:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
• Support. It's noteworthy, although his denial should be added too. _signed, SpringProof ^talk 05:07, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

• @Cambial Yellowing, NadVolum, and Jack Upland: Notify editors who contributed to the informal discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 02:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  @Cambial Yellowing: When you update a comment after someone has replied to it, can you please mark changes as described at WP:TALK#REVISE? BilledMammal (talk) 03:43, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Policy says “RfCs are time consuming, and editor time is valuable. Editors should try to resolve their issues before starting an RfC. Try discussing the matter with any other parties on the related talk page”. I don’t see any prior discussion about this issue.
• It seems that Harding was not at the dinner so we cannot attribute the statement to him. In the book, who is telling the story about what Assange is alleged to have said? Is it coming from Leigh directly or is he passing on something that Declan Walsh told him had happened? Btw, the Declan Walsh who attended the dinner is unlikely to also be an Irish Gaelic footballer.
• The claim that Assange recklessly published unredacted documents is smear number 30 in Caitlin Johnstone’s catalogue. We have managed to squeeze a fair number of her list into Assange’s bio, including a claim about his cat that editors trying to “shorten very long sections” appear to have overlooked. In her listing, Johnstone provides the evidence that "it was Guardian journalists such as Leigh and Nick Davies, the two most vocal critics of Assange, who were displaying the cavalier attitude toward redaction back then" and concludes with "In a classic case of projection, it appears that Assange’s enemies are charging him with the very sins they were committing".
• Any mention of this alleged quote would need to include both Julian’s and John Goetz’ statements that it didn’t happen.
• Interestingly, in Julian's extradition hearing, Lewis for the prosecution cited the alleged statement by Assange but objected when the defence started asking Goetz about the restaurant discussion. Obviously Lewis did not want the court to hear Goetz's statement that Julian did not make the statement.
• Why is there a push to include this disputed quote from Assange in the article but other quotes from him, which would provide readers with useful information, are being airbrushed out?[4] If editors are keen to include quotes from Assange, consider these real quotes:

- If wars can be started with lies, they can be stopped by truth.

- I enjoy creating systems on a grand scale, and I enjoy helping people who are vulnerable. And I enjoy crushing bastards.

- The goal is justice, the method is transparency. It's important not to confuse the goal and the method.

- I've never said that secrecy doesn't have its place, in fact it's a cornerstone of WikiLeaks, is secrecy. It is protecting the identity of our sources, so it's a cornerstone of our operations. Privacy or secrecy gives organisations an edge over actors who are hostile to them, so it is important for small organisations that are acting in the public's-, public interest to have secrecy. Equally it is important that large and powerful organisations never believe that they have absolute secrecy. It's not important that everything be revealed instantly from them, but it is important that they never feel secure that any particular piece of information will never be revealed. Because it is that fear that some plan will be revealed that keeps them accountable to the degree that they are accountable at all.

= Censorship is always a cause for celebration. It is always an opportunity because it reveals fear of reform. It means that the power position is so weak that you have got to care what people think.

- Fine journalists are an exception to the rule. When you are involved in something yourself, like I am with Wikileaks, and you know every facet of it, you look to see what is reported about it in the mainstream press and you see naked lie after naked lie. You know that the journalist knows it's a lie, it is not a simple mistake. Then people repeat lies and so on. The condition of the mainstream press nowadays is so appalling I don't think it can be reformed. I don't think that is possible. I think it has to be eliminated, and replaced with something better.

- Power is mostly the illusion of power. The Pentagon demanded we destroy our publications. We kept publishing. Clinton denounced us and said we were an attack on the entire "international community". We kept publishing. I was put in prison and under house arrest. We kept publishing. We went head to head with the NSA getting Edward Snowden out of Hong Kong, we won and got him asylum. Clinton tried to destroy us and was herself destroyed. Elephants, it seems, can be brought down with string. Perhaps there are no elephants. Burrobert (talk) 13:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

• Yeah if people just used a little common sense and asked simple questions when things like this come up instead of just going oh that's terrible then stories like this might not get such purchase. Like in this case why did Assange contact the newspapers for help instead of putting out these leaks like previous ones directly on Wikileaks? NadVolum (talk) 17:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  good quotes

  Like in this case why did Assange contact the newspapers for help instead of putting out these leaks like previous ones directly on Wikileaks? we shouldnt WP:FORUM or WP:SOAPBOX Softlem (talk) 17:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  Is it such original thought or soapbox to say the world might might be better if people thought for a moment when they feel like just reacting? NadVolum (talk) 17:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  i agree but Please try to stay on the task of creating an encyclopedia. You can chat with people about Wikipedia-related topics on their user talk pages, and should resolve problems with articles on the relevant talk pages, but please do not take discussion into articles. In addition, bear in mind that article talk pages exist solely to discuss how to improve articles; they are not for general discussion about the subject of the article

  did you mean the wikipedia article? i thought it was general Softlem (talk) 18:24, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

  There is a discussion directly above. Jack Upland (talk) 02:27, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above the RfC started on 19 February and the RfC was opened on 20 February. I don't think that was what policy meant by a prior discussion. Burrobert (talk) 04:38, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This follows on from a comment by Nad in the Survey section above. Nad referred to an interview conducted by Martin Smith for PBS Frontline. Smith asks Assange "Why are there people out there that are saying that you didn’t care if informants were killed?" Assange replies that "It’s absolutely false. And I’ll explain to you why it keeps coming up. First of all, this is the bog-standard tactic of the Pentagon. Whenever they are or expect to be criticized for slaying innocent civilians, thousands — in the case of the Afghan war diaries — [of] people killed documented in this conflict, over 20,000 in our material. Whenever they come under that criticism, they use the bog-standard rhetorical trick which is to turn the precise criticism that you expect back on your opponent". Assange then says "It is absolutely right to name names. It is not necessarily right to name every name. We’re dealing with a situation where we have in Kabul radio stations, who are meant to be independent, who are funded by USAID [U.S. Agency for International Development], taking PSYOPS programming content, psychological operations programming content, to be played on their radio stations as news, but it is actually propaganda. Now, the names of those people involved, do the Afghan people have a right to understand which one of their media channels are propaganda and which one is the true independent? Of course they do". He also says "We, as all good investigative journalists do, name names. We name names of those people that are involved in corrupt or abusive activities, and that includes in Afghanistan". Regarding the infamous dinner, can someone clarify who says Assange made those comments? Does Leigh himself make that claim or is he quoting Declan Walsh? I don't have access to Leigh's book so don't know whether the claim is coming directly from Leigh or whether he is passing something on that Walsh told him. If Leigh himself is not making the claim directly then we should ask why he presumably didn't hear the comments himself, given that he was apparently at the same dinner. As Nad has pointed out, the Ofcom report does not clarify the issue because Walsh may only have confirmed that Leigh had correctly passed on what Walsh had told him. Again, as pointed out by Nad, it is suspicious that the words that Nick Davies says Assange used are virtually identical to those Walsh says Assange used at the dinner. Afaict, a link to Davies statement has not yet been provided. Burrobert (talk) 14:35, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks very much for that,it certainly explains a lot. Have you a link? It is strange that he says there was a silence round the table when it was said and there was five of them and yet Leigh does not say it in his own voice and Declan Walsh has said nothing about it himself and Goetz denies it. As I said I think there may be something behind it but it sounds like whatever it was has been spun. And it is very annoying that someone calls it a transcript and leaves that out. NadVolum (talk) 18:49, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

can someone clarify who says Assange made those comments Leigh and Walsh; I provided a quote for Leigh above. Separately, Davies made an allegation that Assange said something similar to him.

it is suspicious that the words that Nick Davies says Assange used are virtually identical to those Walsh says Assange used at the dinner Unless you have a source for this it is not appropriate for us to speculate - there is no reason to believe that Assange can't have given a similar response to similar questions on multiple occasions. BilledMammal (talk) 22:16, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

We now have a link for the statement by Nick Davies. Apparently he made the statement to the Leveson Inquiry. Assange made a submission to the same enquiry in which he said he had faced "widespread inaccurate and negative media coverage".[5] Davies, who worked for The Guardian is the chap who in 2010 said he "felt betrayed" by Assange, claiming Assange "promised an exclusive deal, then gave away the paper's secrets to rivals".[6] Leigh was also a Guardian employee. I presume we no longer intend to mention Harding as a source for the claim. However, Harding, also a Guardian employee, was responsible for a 2018 Guardian article which cited anonymous sources claiming Donald Trump's former campaign manager Paul Manafort held secret meetings with Assange inside the Ecuadorian embassy in London in 2013, 2015, and 2016. The piece was criticised for providing no evidence about something that was supposed to have taken place in "one of the most surveilled and filmed buildings on the planet".[7] Regarding the Guardian's coverage of Assange, Stella Assange said its its "negligence has created such a problem that if Julian dies or is extradited, that will forever blot the reputation of the Guardian".[8] With regard to Declan Walsh, who was also a Guardian employee, do we have a direct statement from him or are we relying on Leigh's statement about what Walsh said. The Ofcom report is odd because it firstly says Walsh "entirely supports Mr Leigh’s account" and then uses Leigh's own book as evidence that Walsh supports Leigh. Hardly convincing. So, is there a separate statement from Walsh about this? Burrobert (talk) 06:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Most of what you’ve said isn’t relevant to this discussion; I’ve provided a significant number of sources and you are welcome to read through them, but I’m not going to engage further. BilledMammal (talk) 06:56, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

A simple question then. Have you provided a source that verifies what Leigh claims Walsh said other than Leigh's book and the Ofcom report which relies on Leigh's book? Burrobert (talk) 07:18, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

There is good evidence Nick Davies said the same thing about Assange. That quite extraordinary statement to the Leveson inquiry [9] which is not touched in his witness statement [10] plus there is a video [11] in 2011-07-07 of him describing the early days of the collaboration. His earlier description of 2010-09-10 [12] omits anything about redaction. Personally I am much happier to accept written things like the book than verbal statements. NadVolum (talk) 09:23, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Leigh’s book is available on Google books. The claim about Assange is made in a strange way. The book quotes Declan Walsh describing the dinner and saying “I told David Leigh I was worried about the repercussions of publishing these names … That night we went out to a Moorish restaurant , Moro, with the two German reporters. David broached the problem again with Julian. The response floored me …”. It’s strange that Leigh uses Walsh to tell the story rather than saying what happened in his own words. Anyway, further on Leigh says Assange changed his view in the next few months and by the time the US cables were published, Assange had “entirely embraced the logic of redaction”. With regard to the Afghan release, the book says Assange removed 15,000 “threat reports” from the release since they were most likely to contain identifying details. It says “all the anxieties about the fate of informants remained purely theoretical” and there was no evidence of informants being harmed as a result of the release. Then, “as Walsh had predicted, the enemies of WikiLeaks nevertheless did their best”. The slogan “blood on their hands” was “endlessly repeated” including “by US generals, who, as the WikiLeaks documents revealed, had gallons of genuine civilian blood on their own hands”. Burrobert (talk) 15:26, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

long talk. are we missing sources? does google have enough of the book? i can try to borrow it Softlem (talk) 11:07, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Assange's cypherpunk ethos

Shouldn't we mention Assange's cypherpunk philosophy, specifically his view that there should be "privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful" and his advocacy for encryption as a safeguard against the deprivations of governments, corporations, surveillance agencies and Western imperialism? It appears to be a central motivating factor in his creation of WikiLeaks. After all, we have given space to his cat. Burrobert (talk) 17:21, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This article really does not benefit form any more opinions his or others. Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

This article is about him, it is not his manifesto. Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

What about the cat? Burrobert (talk) 18:02, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I think we should not mention his cat either. But this is to about his cat. Slatersteven (talk) 18:07, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

At least you are consistent to that degree. To improve your consistency you should change your vote on the inclusion of a potentially imaginary statement by Assange from "neutral" to "oppose". Burrobert (talk) 18:10, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

this is not about me, either. Slatersteven (talk) 18:12, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

The cat is very briefly mentioned in the context of Assange's disputes with Ecuador. I think that is valid.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:00, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Searching for sources I find a surprisingly significant number (a small sample includes the Guardian, ABC, SBS, NBC, NPR). I think WP:BALASP is met for this information - and as a general point, how someone acts and what they say in private is probably more informative as to who they are, is more encyclopedic, than how they publicize themselves. BilledMammal (talk) 08:02, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I support the inclusion of more information about his views.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Support if there is any decent coverage or analysis of them. NadVolum (talk) 23:37, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I too support the inclusion of more information about his views. I also added a see also template to the section. I too think this is an important part of the biography and good to give a bit more weight. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 02:47, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. I also think readers would benefit from knowing why Asssange created WikiLeaks. Regarding the cat, it's not worth talking about other than as a counterpoint to other edits to the page. Burrobert (talk) 04:11, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with NadVolum; we should include this if there is sufficient coverage to demonstrate that WP:BALASP has been met. So far, I haven’t seen such coverage. BilledMammal (talk) 04:26, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

See Robert Manne’s article. Jack Upland (talk) 05:34, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Can you link it? BilledMammal (talk) 07:56, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I think Jack mean this The Cypherpunk Revolutionary By Robert Manne Softlem (talk) 12:13, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Only if we also put in links about his support for Eastern Imperialism. 208.87.236.202 (talk) 20:07, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Does anyone remember the Star Trek NG episode in which Beverly Crusher’s world kept shrinking until it disappeared? It seems the same thing is happening with this article. We briefly knew why Julian created WikiLeaks and how he believed it could be used to protect individuals and smaller countries. We once knew his view on war and his assessment of the US war in Afghanistan. However, once the current RfC is completed we may know that some people say he said something and other people say he didn’t. Hilarious!! Burrobert (talk) 04:48, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree that this article is heading in the wrong direction Jack Upland (talk) 05:36, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Agree Slatersteven This article is about him, it is not his manifesto. but some views are encyclopedic and if editors find RSes then maybe SPLIT it and some Julian Assange#Written works, television show, and views into Commentary about Julian Assange and move page to name like Commentary about and by Julian Assange Softlem (talk) 12:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I oppose the creation of such an unwieldy article.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

How can we decide what is the right or wrong direction? The best we can do is try and make it fit for an encyclopaedia. Thanks for the link to 'The Cypherpunk Revolutionary', haven't read it all yet but it looks like it rounds out a number of things about him. NadVolum (talk) 17:18, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

It is used extensively in the article Jack Upland (talk) 22:35, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Then again, if Wikipedia is not overly-interested in giving a full profile on a well-known public figure (who might die in a US jail), when why is it putting undue effort into reporting on unknown ARTORvist in Russia? 95.147.153.31 (talk) 11:26, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

This is where anything about WikiLeaks needs to go WikiLeaks. Slatersteven (talk) 18:09, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Wikileaks doesn't necessarily share Assange's philosophy. THere may be bits which are integral to Wikileaks though. NadVolum (talk) 18:39, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

[13] should be at WikiLeaks. if we know Wikileaks doesn't necessarily share Assange's philosophy about something it should be here Softlem (talk) 11:11, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I have added it to the WikiLeaks article. I do think it relates to Assange as well since he was the person who created both the goals and the method of the organisation. Burrobert (talk) 11:54, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

for Assange page or WikiLeaks page i ask two questions

is it about Assange or WikiLeaks? WikiLeaks

can we tell Assanges story without it? yes

different editors maybe its different Softlem (talk) 12:01, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Right-ho. Burrobert (talk) 12:59, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with the position that this article is about him, not his manifesto. His manifesto is part of his persona. We should not have people reading a long article about him and never have much exposure to his ideas. I have always been a critic of the bloat of this article. But information about his opinions is important. Since he created WikiLeaks, his ideas in its creation are important here. They should be covered briefly, but they should be covered.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:24, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Manifesto is maybe bad word but agree some views are DUE

Suggest edits? Softlem (talk) 12:14, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful

This is another item which was recently removed from Assange's bio. It provides part of his philosophy and was a motivating factor in his creation of WikiLeaks. The specific text which was removed is:

In his 2012 book Cypherpunks: Freedom and the future of the internet, Assange wrote that his fundamental principle was "the traditional cypherpunk juxtaposition ... privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful". His strong advocacy for the use of encryption also stems from his cypherpunks ethos. He advocates for the use of encryption by individuals to protect themselves against the intrusions of governments, corporations and surveillance agencies and by states to protect themselves against Western imperialism. In a 2013 article for The Guardian, he wrote that "[cryptography] can be used to fight not just the tyranny of the state over the individual but the tyranny of the empire over smaller states".

Here are some sources which mention this part of his philosophy:

• Firstly, a Guardian article by Assange about the use of cryptography "to fight not just the tyranny of the state over the individual but the tyranny of the empire over smaller states". It is a primary source but usable for Assange's views.[14]
• Privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful: the cypherpunk ethics of Julian Assange[15] "Assange’s fundamental principle is not radical transparency but “the traditional cypherpunk juxtaposition”: “privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful” "
• The editor of Assange’s book “Cypherpunks : freedom and the future of the internet”, writes “[Assange’s] work with WikiLeaks has given political currency to the traditional cypherpunk juxtaposition: “privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful.”
• WikiLeaks: the illusion of transparency by Alasdair Roberts.[16] "New technologies, applied to the old logic of disclosure, are predicted to lead us to a new world of radical transparency: a world in which, as Assange has said, ‘strong powers [are] held to account, while the weak [are] protected’ ".
• The Cypherpunk Revolutionary by Robert Manne.[17] "No mainstream journalist so far has grasped the critical significance of the cypherpunks movement to Assange’s intellectual development and the origin of WikiLeaks". "There is a direct link between Assange’s cypherpunks period and the theory behind WikiLeaks". "From his cypherpunk days he had become interested in the political possibilities of untraceable encrypted communication".
• 'It’s not easy to do a WikiLeaks': A Cypherpunk Approach to Global Media Ethics.[18] by Patrick D. Anderson published in Ethical Space: --Jack Upland (talk) 00:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)The International Journal of Communication Ethics. All rights reserved. Vol 19, No 1 2022 "Assange is not enacting a double standard but upholding ‘the traditional cypherpunk juxtaposition’: ‘privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful’. Ultimately, Assange’s ethical paradigm is best understood as a philosophy of cypherpunk ethics". "In response to the twin threats of secrecy and surveillance, Assange aligns his philosophy of technology with his emphasis on justice, advocating the use of digital cryptography and works to make the cypherpunk slogan ‘privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful’ a reality". "Assange argued that cryptography could contribute to justice both at the individual level and the national level. ‘Mass surveillance is not just an issue for democracy and governance,’ he notes, ‘it’s a geopolitical issue. The surveillance of a whole population by a foreign power naturally threatens sovereignty’ ".
• Organizational resistance as a vector of deterritorialization: The case of WikiLeaks and secrecy havens by Iain Munro.[19] "This article analyzes the tactics of resistance developed by the WikiLeaks network that invert existing hegemonic systems of surveillance by supporting privacy for the weak and transparency of the powerful".
• Frontiers in Sociology and Social Research Volume 7.[20] "Assange’s campaign to achieve “transparency for the powerful” ... always accompanied by the fight to protect “privacy for the weak” has its immediate precedents in the cypherpunk ethic but also echoes analogous Enlightenment battles".

Burrobert (talk) 12:43, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

sAME OBJECION. Slatersteven (talk) 12:57, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Support a brief inclusion.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:41, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Struggling to generate any interest in this. Even the editor who removed the text has not bothered to comment. We have two in favour of some form of wording (Jack and me) and one neutral (Steven). Will give it a few more days. Burrobert (talk) 05:03, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I think there’s too much apathy. Jack Upland (talk) 05:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of well-sourced description of Assange's motivating beliefs in his BLP. NightHeron (talk) 08:08, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
• I think it's appropriate to include Assange wrote that his fundamental principle was "the traditional cypherpunk juxtaposition ... privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful". or similar, but I'm not convinced there is sufficient independent coverage of the rest; can you provide additional sources? BilledMammal (talk) 08:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Let's put aside the “Privacy for the weak .. “ motto since everyone, except possibly Steven, agrees that we should mention it. The other part of the text relates to Assange’s attitude towards encryption. I have not looked beyond the sources above. Here is some relevant information from those sources:

1. There is a quote above from Assange’s article in the Guardian that gives his view. This is of course a primary source.

2. From “Privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful: the cypherpunk ethics of Julian Assange”: “Assange advocates for the use of cryptography in the fight for individual privacy as well as the fight for global justice”. “Assange (2013) implores the governments and the people of the Global South to adopt encryption as a means of protecting themselves from the NSA and other western surveillance agencies. Drawing from his roots in cypherpunk philosophy, Assange argues that encryption is one of the most powerful tools for nation-states to defend themselves against Western imperialism”.

3. From Robert Manne’s article: “From his cypherpunk days he had become interested in the political possibilities of untraceable encrypted communication. … In essence, his conclusion was that world politics could be transformed by staunching the flow of information among corrupt power elites by making them ever more fearful of insider leaks. He believed he could achieve this by establishing an organisation that would allow whistleblowers from all countries to pass on their information, confident that their identities would not be able to be discovered. He proposed that his organisation would then publish the information for the purpose of collective analysis so as to empower oppressed populations across the globe”. Burrobert (talk) 13:46, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Time for a little less conversation and a little more action. There appears to be a consensus that the "Privacy for the weak, transparency for the powerful" statement should be included. There has not been any strong protest about the encryption statement apart from a request that it be brief. Unless someone intervenes urgently this will be added soon. Burrobert (talk) 11:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

War = official money laundering

Assange made the following famous statement about the US-Afghanistan war:

"The goal is to use Afghanistan to wash money out of the tax bases of the U.S. and Europe through Afghanistan and back into the hands of a transnational security elite. The goal is an endless war, not a successful war".

It has appeared in a number of sources and is often linked in social media posts about war in general. Its universality is evidenced by the fact that it went viral after being slightly modified to apply to the the Russia-Ukraine war. We have not yet mentioned Assange's strong aversion to war, so should we include it in Assange's bio, perhaps together with a general statement about his anti-war stance? Here are some sources that mention the quote.[21][22][23][24][25] Burrobert (talk) 06:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, these types of quotes of his that are notable are very encyclopedic. The perfect kind of content to give the reader a feeling of the subject, rather than the (now largely pruned) earlier content we had about wikileaks and not the BLP. I support this quote and it is a great suggestion! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:12, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Support Softlem (talk) 04:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Support. As discussed before, I think we have a lot of information about what Assange has done, but not so much why he did it. The "Views" section is very brief.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:42, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Life in Belmarsh prison

This section has been added. We had a section entitled "Imprisonment in the UK" which has been moved to Indictment and arrest of Julian Assange. I don't think it belongs there. I think some of its contents (in a summarised way) could be moved to this new section. Jack Upland (talk) 00:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the personal stuff about him being incarcerated and his reaction to it (illness, etc) is due on the BLP rather than the legal article. Could maybe be life in Belmarsh and that might help limit the scope of what is added here. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 06:08, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I created that section. It contains three sentences and covers a period of five years in our hero's life. His incarceration in Britain's version of Guantánamo Bay should be mentioned on the Indictment and arrest of Julian Assange page - probably one sentence would be sufficient there. However, the personal information about his incarceration (health, books etc) seems more relevant to his personal page. Burrobert (talk) 06:57, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I have no idea what you’re saying. Could you be more explicit? Jack Upland (talk) 09:25, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. I interpreted your comment to be a suggestion that details about Julian's life in Guantánamo should be removed from his bio and placed in a different article, possibly after being summarised. It seems that you were actually suggesting that text from another article should be moved into Julian's bio and placed in the Life in Guantánamo section. If that is the case, then I have no objection. Burrobert (talk) 10:36, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Burrobert, I don't think you mean Guantánamo!--Jack Upland (talk) 23:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Gulag? Burrobert (talk) 11:44, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Makes me Hungary! Jack Upland (talk) 15:41, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Gulag, they did not even let him have the right kind of Lap top the monsters. Slatersteven (talk) 15:47, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

But isn’t that noteworthy? Jack Upland (talk) 18:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

THis is what, less than 20% of his life, but 50% of the article? Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Why was this new section deleted? There's no consensus here!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 02:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:43, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Do we need more stuff about his time in prison, its not as if this is what he is most famous for, is it? Slatersteven (talk) 11:10, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I think he is famous as a so-called political prisoner. Jack Upland (talk) 11:33, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

I have brought back the "Imprisonment in the UK" section and added the text of "Life in Belmarsh Prison" to it. I think there is consensus for this.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:51, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Nick Davies

@Cambial Yellowing: Why did you remove the Nick Davies claim? It is relevant that multiple individuals have accused him of saying this at separate incidents. BilledMammal (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Davies does not say this is separate; in fact he gives no context at all. It’s also repetitive, the ostensible quote said by Davies is nearly identical to that preceding it. It lacks wide coverage in news sources like the claim by David Leigh. Cambial — foliar❧ 10:44, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

David Leigh and Luke Harding did not say they heard it, they said in their book that Declan Walsh had heard it. NadVolum (talk) 19:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Can you all please quote the text that youse are arguing about? Jack Upland (talk) 06:47, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

The bit covered by these edits by BilledMammal [26]. Seemingly it is important to them to remove John Goetz and also important to include Nick Davies, - as Cambial Yellowing then did [27] NadVolum (talk) 10:33, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

This is hard to follow. For some reason we can't mention a statement by Goetz, who was at the dinner. On the other hand we use David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding for the claim that Assange said "Well, they’re informants, so if they get killed, they’ve got it coming to them. They deserve it". Harding was not at the dinner. As far as I can tell, we don't have a statement from either Leigh or Walsh saying they heard Assange say it. What we do appear to have is a story by Leigh in which Walsh tells Leigh he heard Assange say that. Neither in his book, nor in the linked Guardian article does Leigh say he heard Assange make that statement. A more accurate description of the sources would be "According to Leigh and Harding, Walsh told Leigh that he heard Assange say "Well, they’re informants ... ". Not sure why anyone would bother including that (and omitting Goetz' counter statement) unless ... Burrobert (talk) 14:15, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually it sounds to me more like Luke Harding than David Leigh, but that's just my feeling. It could very well be an embellishment of something Assange actually said given what he said about it. NadVolum (talk) 17:48, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the sequence would make more sense if it was Harding telling the story about Walsh telling Leigh something Assange said. Which increases the probability that there was a Chinese whispers effect. Anyway, if we include this, we can't leave it in its current form because it misrepresents the two sources which are being used. Burrobert (talk) 09:00, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

We had an RFC but we’re still squabbling about this… Jack Upland (talk) 20:55, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

The RfC concluded "there is consensus to include the quote alongside appropriate context, inline attribution (not in wikivoice), and Assange's denial". The discussion above is not about the quote itself but around the "appropriate context" that needs to be included with the quote. Specifically, based on the two sources we are using we cannot say "According to journalists David Leigh, Declan Walsh, and Luke Harding, ... Assange replied "Well, they’re informants ...". We would need to say something like "According to Leigh and Harding, Walsh told Leigh that he heard Assange say "Well, they’re informants ... ". Also, the RfC did not deal with Goetz' statement, so we still need to discuss why anyone would want to exclude it. Burrobert (talk) 11:22, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Does it say Walsh told Leigh? Walsh said there was a silence round the table when it was said, but even that is disputed in the OFCOM resolution where they talked about the place being noisy and perhaps that's why Goetz didn't hear it. Yeah we should put it in but removing what Goetz said was over the top. 16:55, 2 April 2024 (UTC)NadVolum (talk)

The text from the Guardian article by Leigh and Harding says:

Declan Walsh, the Guardian's Islamabad correspondent, recalls one tense evening: "We went out to a Moorish restaurant, Moro, with the two German reporters. David Leigh broached the problem again with Julian. The response floored me. 'Well, they're informants,' he said. 'So, if they get killed, they've got it coming to them. They deserve it.' There was, for a moment, silence around the table. I think everyone was struck by what a callous thing that was to say."

The article does not explicitly identify the person to whom Walsh is "recalling" this story, but presumably it is one or both of the writers of the article, i.e. Harding and/or Leigh. Not sure why Leigh is referring to himself in the third person here. As mentioned earlier, it is also unclear why Walsh needs to be the one relating this story given Leigh was apparently at the same dinner and he is writing the article. I quoted Leigh's book in an earlier section. The text is very similar to that in Harding and Leigh's Guardian article. It quotes Walsh as saying

"I told David Leigh I was worried about the repercussions of publishing these names … That night we went out to a Moorish restaurant , Moro, with the two German reporters. David broached the problem again with Julian. The response floored me …".

So in both the Guardian article and Leigh's book, the story is related by Walsh and there is no mention that Leigh himself heard Assange make that comment. Burrobert (talk) 04:43, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

True. I think it should just say thatLeigh and Harding in their book say Walsh said it and include the statement by Goetz. I don't think we should read anything more into the book than it actually says, there's a number of funny things about it so we shouldn't infer anything. NadVolum (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

Just Leigh and Harding said it. No need to go into details. Jack Upland (talk) 16:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

They didn't though. Their book quotes Walsh saying Assange saying it. NadVolum (talk) 16:17, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

We could say they reported it.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:37, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we should say that the claim about what Walsh said is from Leigh and Harding, possibly mentioning their book. Not sure we can do it in one sentence given the complex sequence. "Leigh and Harding wrote that Walsh told them Assange said ""Well, they’re informants ..."? Unless someone comes up with an objection, I will make an attempt at improving the way in which this anecdote is related to the reader. Burrobert (talk) 04:40, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

You don't need permission to edit the page, comrade.Jack Upland (talk) 00:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Davies said he heard it, and Davies was not present at the meeting - therefore, he heard it separately. It's significant that multiple people have independently claimed they heard it, and I don't think it's appropriate to exclude this - do we need to hold a second RfC?

Goetz I removed because it has minimal coverage, and there is a lot of context that we need to include - such as the noise level in the restaurant - that wasn't included and would give this section excessive weight if it was included. I think it is sufficient to say that Assange denies it. BilledMammal (talk) 00:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Swedish sex crime allegations in the intro

If we don't mention the nature of the allegations it sounds like they were computer-related. What are we trying to hide? The body of the article makes the nature of the allegations clear in any case. Jack Upland (talk) 04:08, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Calling Assange a journalist

Should we refer to Julian Assange as a journalist? Wikinetman (talk) 03:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you come forth with some new sources or a new argument as outlined at Talk:Julian Assange/Archive 17#Request for Comment - Journalist. Moxy🍁 03:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

• Yes but attributed There is a real dispute, I don't think it can be said without attribution. NadVolum (talk) 20:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

But there was a prior discussion!--Jack Upland (talk) 04:31, 7 April 2024 (UTC)