Wikipedia:Administrative action review

Administrative action review (XRV/AARV) determines whether use of the administrator tools or other advanced permissions is consistent with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Any action (or set of related actions) involving a tool not available to all confirmed editors—except those covered by another, more specific review process—may be submitted here for community review. The purpose of an administrative review discussion is to reach a consensus on whether a specific action was appropriate, not to assign blame. It is not the place to request comment on an editor's general conduct, to seek retribution or removal of an editor's advanced permissions, or to quibble about technicalities.

To request an administrative action review, please first read the "Purpose" section to make sure that it is in scope. Then, follow the instructions below.

Purpose

Administrative action review may be used to request review of:

1. an administrator action
2. an action using an advanced permission

Administrative action review should not be used:

1. to request an appeal or review of an action with a dedicated review process

   For review of page deletions or review of deletion discussion closures, use Wikipedia:Deletion review (DRV)

   For review of page moves, use Wikipedia:Move review (MRV)

2. to ask to remove a user's permissions:

   Permissions granted at WP:PERM may be revoked by an administrator if XRV finds them to be misused.

   Repeated or egregious misuse of permissions may form the basis of an administrators' noticeboard or incidents noticeboard report, or a request for arbitration, as appropriate.

3. to argue technicalities and nuances (about what the optimal action would have been, for example), outside of an argument that the action was inconsistent with policy.
4. to ask for a review of arbitration enforcement actions. Such reviews must be done at arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE"), at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"), or directly to the Arbitration Committee at the amendment requests page ("ARCA").
5. for urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioural problems; use Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents ("ANI") instead
6. for serious, entrenched or persistent disputes and cases of rule-breaking; use Wikipedia:Arbitration ("ArbCom") instead
7. for a block marked with any variation of {{CheckUser block}}, {{OversightBlock}}, or {{ArbComBlock}}; Contact the Arbitration Committee instead
8. to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias. Such requests may be speedily closed.

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Any follow-up outcomes of a review are deferred to existing processes. Individual actions can be reversed by any editor with sufficient permissions. Permissions granted at WP:PERM may be revoked by an administrator.

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Unblock of Tony1 by Bishonen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Action: Unblock of Tony1 by Bishonen

User: Bishonen (talk · contribs · logs) (prior discussion)

Policy background:

• WP:CIVIL is a policy enacted by our community. It provides in relevant part:

"Editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect. (...) Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness and disrespectful comments. (...) In cases of repeated harassment or egregious personal attacks, then the offender may be blocked. Even a single act of severe incivility could result in a block".

• The Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) is a policy enacted by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees, and is binding on all Wikipedians (UCoC §1). The Arbitration Committee has acknowledged this, and explained that the UCoC is a minimum standard that our local policies go beyond of. As such, the UCoC must be observed when applying our local policies. It provides in relevant part:

"The following behaviours are considered unacceptable within the Wikimedia movement: 3.1 – Harassment. This includes any behaviour intended primarily to intimidate, outrage or upset a person, or any behaviour where this would reasonably be considered the most likely main outcome. (...) Harassment includes but is not limited to: Insults: This includes (...) any attacks based on personal characteristics. Insults may refer to perceived characteristics like intelligence".

Factual background:

The AN thread linked to above concerned a complaint by Headbomb against Tony1. Headbomb took offense to a talk page message by Tony1 in which Tony1 accused Headbomb of "ignorant writing" and told Headbomb to "go to hell". The cause of this message was apparently a stylistic disagreement about how some text should be phrased.

After the complaint was initially not taken seriously by other responding administrators, I blocked Tony1 for the reasons explained in the AN thread. Later, Bishonen unblocked Tony1. As far as I can tell from her comments in the AN thread, she did so because in her view there was "an admin consensus" against the block, and because in her view Tony1's comments were not harrassment and not a personal attack.

Argument:

Bishonen acted irresponsibly by unblocking Tony1. The comments by Tony1 were incivil and therefore sanctionable per WP:CIVIL. Whether or not they were personal attacks, they were at least "rudeness [or] disrespectful comments", as provided for by the policy. They were also harassment as defined in UCoC §3.1, i.e. "behaviour intended primarily to intimidate, outrage or upset a person, or any behaviour where this would reasonably be considered the most likely main outcome". The allegation of "ignorant writing" was moreover an insult as defined in the same provision, i.e., "attacks based on personal characteristics (...) like intelligence".

The block was also an appropriate and proportionate response, as explained in the AN thread, particularly because of previous blocks and reports of similar misconduct concerning Tony1.

It is also immaterial whether there was an "admin consensus" against the block, as Bishonen alleged. The view of administrators is not of greater importance than that of other users in disciplinary matters. In any event, core policies such as WP:CIVIL and the UCoC cannot be set aside by local consensus.

To be clear, as an administrator, Bishonen was technically authorized to undo my block. Admins may in good faith disagree about whether and which enforcement action is appropriate, and they may undo blocks (except in WP:CTOP cases) they deem inappropriate. But once seized of an enforcement request that has merit, as Bishonen was here by her participation in the AN thread and her unblock, they may not simply replace an enforcement measure with none, as Bishonen did here, because this amounts to preventing and frustrating the enforcement of core policies, contrary to the duty of administrators. Instead, having undone my block, Bishonen was required to take or request another effective preventative measure, such as an editing restriction, warning, or shorter block.

Bishonen knows better. She has recently correctly blocked other editors for similar misconduct, see e.g. User talk:Vizualnoiise#Blocked indefinitely (offense), User talk:Beeuu#Warning, and page blocks (offense), User talk:Chaitanya kalra#Enough warnings (offense). In particular, at User talk:Raheja88#Page block, she page-blocked an editor for the comment: "well, cant argue with a fool anymore. Have a nice life", and correctly explained: "Civility is policy here". In June, she blocked an IP for "personal attacks or harassment" for comments that were considerably milder than Tony1's statements. It is therefore difficult to explain why she would go so far out of her way to protect Tony1 from a block for very similar misconduct. The only conceivable explanation is that Tony1 is a socially well-connected established editor, and the other editors she blocked were not. In my view, this conduct by Bishonen contributes to the impression, as described at WP:UNBLOCKABLES, that civility is something enforced only against nobodies, not against people with the right kind of friends. This is repugnant to me, and, I hope, most Wikipedians.

The unblock should therefore be undone and the block reinstated until such time as Tony1 credibly recognizes their misconduct and commits not to repeat it. Sandstein 10:47, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Follow-up: Someone I don't know informed me by e-mail of the following: In 2019, Tony1 told an editor on their talk page to "Piss off. Now, you miserable little swine." When Tony1's conduct was subsequently discussed at ANI, Bishonen wrote: " I understand why he was blocked. But I'm glad GoldenRing unblocked. As for a FAC topic ban, that is surely unnecessarily humiliating for someone who used to be one of the FAC greats". While I am not familiar with that incident, Bishonen's comment mentioned above supports the impression that as an administrator she does not apply the same standards to people she likes and to other editors. This is very problematic in an administrator. Sandstein 11:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Sandstein, opening a review at this noticeboard seems to me a bit like asking the other parent, or forumshopping. Your own block of Tony1 was taken to RFAR yesterday, and the arbs and others are busy there commenting on both your block and, of course, on my unblock. (As indeed did many users at this AN thread.) Isn't that enough? It seems to me that having the discussion over several boards can only dilute it. Bishonen | tålk 11:55, 20 July 2023 (UTC).

My understanding is that this is the proper forum in which to review a contested admin action, so I'm here. Arbitration is a last resort, and the arbitration request you refer to is in the process of being denied for this reason, among others. Sandstein 12:10, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

The most that this page can handle is: "Bishonen unblocked Tony1 yesterday without consulting me, the blocking admin. Does the community endorse?" Even then, it is premature in that you have not discussed this with her, and simultaneously, it is too late because the whole incident was already discussed at AN and even ArbCom, though perhaps neither venue discussed Bishonen's conduct front and centre. The accusations you've made here are grave. If AN and ArbCom didn't address it to your satisfaction, you will just have to start dedicated cases in the same venues. This board would be a step backwards.

Personally, I hope adminning in the English Wikipedia can continue to remain as robust without the need for appeal to UCOC. Not a fan of undiscussed reversal of admin actions, especially blocks. Not a fan of the way Bishonen notified you on your talk page. As to why the interpersonal dynamics may be the way they are among three users who have been on Wikipedia almost 20 years, I would not dare begin to explore. I don't think anyone seriously wants to get into that whole thing about favouritism, double standards and cabalism among established users and admin corps. Usedtobecool ☎️ 12:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Here's my two cents, in more or less chronological order:
  • I've never written anything for The Signpost, so I'm not up on the culture there, but I tend to think of Signpost articles as akin to personal essays where the author has a greater degree of ownership than they would with a mainspace article. The Signpost quick start seems to support that view.
  • Headbomb could have been more diplomatic in how they pushed back on Tony1's edits.
  • Tony1's Go to hell comment was completely uncalled for. Arguing about which of WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA applied is just wikilawyering. Whatever you label it, it wasn't an appropriate thing to say.
  • I'm not convinced Sandstein's block was necessary, but it was certainly not unreasonable.
  • I don't see any reason the UCOC had to be cited. Our own policies cover this just fine. As a practical matter, the UCOC has not been received well by much of the enwiki community and I suspect any time it's cited to support an admin action, that'll just ratchet up the temperature of whatever else is going on.
  • I disagree with Bishonen's unblock, but I don't see it rising to anything more than a routine "that's not what I would have done".
  • Ritchie333 bringing this to arbcom was excessive, but they've already acknowledged that, so no need to dwell on it.
  • I see somebody dug up another example of Tony1 being uncivil from four years ago. Unless we've got some reason to believe this is an ongoing problem, let's all just agree that everybody is allowed to have a bad day once every four years and move on from that.
  • I've seen a few comments citing Tony1's long history of work at FA and the Signpost, asserting that this history gives him a free ride to ignore rules and be nasty to people. It does not.
  • Please everybody, just decompress and get back to writing the encyclopedia. RoySmith (talk) 13:52, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  +1 to this analysis. Pretty much every successive step in this saga has made me roll my eyes, then go back to more productive work. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:22, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with Roy here also. That said, I would emphasize a few points a bit more strongly. The UCOC mention was probably a bad idea for a number of reasons (mainly it makes it look like a soapbox for UCOC's relationship to Wikipedia and thus feels like a case of the tail wagging the dog) and I'd recommend avoiding mentioning it in the future. I'd have phrased my disagreement wrt Bishonen's unblock a bit more strongly. I think it was at best unwise and should at least have been followed by some advice given to Tony1. Hobit (talk) 17:27, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

  I agree with Hobit (and thus broadly RoySmith) on all counts. Headbomb, Tony1, Bishonen, Sandstein and Ritchie333 all have lessons to be learned from this saga, but as long as they commit to learning them (and Richtie333 at least already has) then I don't think any further action would benefit the project. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

• Sandstein my friend. Close this and let's move on please. Lourdes 19:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
• Drawing upon information from various sources the now closed ANI discussion and the current ARC request, which is on its way to speedy decline, it appears that the block imposed was wholly within the established Wikipedia policy. The invoked Universal Code of Conduct (UCoC) merely serves as a foundational guideline, yet the pre-existing policy is decidedly more comprehensive, as affirmed by our Arbitration Committee.
  What intrigues, and somewhat amuses me, is the unblocking decision. The rationale provided is, to put it mildly, lacking in maturity and remarkably dismissive of the ongoing discourse. Although I am not convinced that this situation necessitates community sanctions or escalation to the Arbitration Committee, I firmly believe that this episode should serve as a precedent and certainly not be replicated in future situations. PackMecEng (talk) 22:57, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Decisions on their own don't have "maturity", only the people making them do. Saying "that was a very mature decision" is tantamount to saying "You are very mature." Similarly, saying that a unblock rationale is "lacking in maturity and remarkable dismissive" is a comment not on the action itself, but on the person who took the action, Bishonen. In my view, your remarks are therefore a WP:Personal attack on Bishonen's character, and I urge you to strike them. If you refuse, I urge an uninvolved admin to block you for your violation of WP:NPA. At the very least, a warning not to continue to make personal attacks should be issued. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
  • @PackMecEng: you appear to be trolling and casting snide insults here and at ANI. Please stop. Abecedare (talk) 15:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

    I don't think it's trolling at all. I share PackMecEng's displeasure with the unblock itself and with Bishonen's attitude in communicating the unblock. While I don't think it serves a useful purpose for editors to continue relitigating the matter at various noticeboards, I do hope Bishonen will take on board that some of us feel the unblock was not carried out well.

    As an aside, I strongly disagree with Sandstein's desire for the block to be reinstated. That would be a very bad outcome. This matter has been sufficiently discussed and further threads are unlikely to be healthy for the community. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 02:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    I think it's sufficient for Bishonen to "take on board" the fact that a number of arbitrators and other commenters on RFAR felt that Bishonen's unblock was completely within admin discretion. That some people disagreed with an admin's action is hardly anything to write home about; rather, it would be a rare admin decision about which somebody did not disagree. So far, at least, I'm not seeing here a groundswell of disapprobation concerning Bishonen's decision to unblock. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:27, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    Sure, it was within admin discretion. But that doesn't mean it was the right call. I personally feel that it wasn't, and I'm clearly not the only one. The lack of a groundswell of disapprobation probably stems from the fact that most people are justifiably ready to stop talking about the whole thing. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 04:36, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    Or, it could mean that there just aren't that many people who thought it was a "bad call". Certainly the consensus of those who commented on the unblock in the case request didn't think so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:24, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    For the record I am a person who agrees Bishonen's unblock was within admin discretion, also thinks it was a bad call (just because you can do something doesn't mean it is always a good idea to do it) and did not comment to this effect in the case request (because doing so would not have brought anything new to the discussion). Thryduulf (talk) 09:41, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    @Lepricavark How would you describe "Ha, did you stick out your tongue at the end as well?" I presume you are aware of PackMecEng's one week block for disruption at AN.[1] Doug Weller talk 10:14, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

    I was probably aware of that situation when it happened, but I don't recall it now (which could be said about an ever-increasing number of situations that I've observed/participated in). While the "did you stick out your tongue" remark did not contribute anything helpful to the discussion, I took it as an expression of frustration with Bishonen's attitude in carrying out the unblock. Personally, I felt that both Bishonen and Sandstein (with his bogus invocation of UCOC and the accusation that other admins were failing to enforce it, as well as his decision to open this thread) were more adversarial than they should have been, and I think the frustration underlying PackMecEng's comment is perfectly valid. Is it possible that it was trolling? Sure. But I think admins should be very, very careful when lobbing that accusation against non-admins who are criticizing admin actions. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 14:38, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

• I think best practice would be for Bishonen to visit Sandstein's talk page for a polite conversation before unblocking.
  I think the en.wiki community takes a dismissive view of the UCOC. The community seems to think there's nothing in the UCOC that isn't already covered by our existing policies and guidelines, and that this means the UCOC can safely be ignored on en.wiki. Personally, I only hope that's true.
  I think that it's open to the community to reach a consensus that a block should be reversed. I don't think it matters whether that's a consensus of admins or not, and I don't think an "admin consensus" is a thing at all. I also don't think it matters whether the block rationale cites WP:CIVIL. I know that WP:CIVIL is a core policy but it's my position that even a civility-related block can be overturned by community consensus. And I think that yes, a consensus to unblock did exist at the time that Bishonen unblocked.—S Marshall T/C 09:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

  @S Marshall I’m not clear why using his talk page would be superior to the discussion in the thread. Doug Weller talk 12:51, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Block of User:KoA by User:Leyo

I am questioning the coorectness of this block[2] stating that "You have been blocked temporarily from editing for edit-warring (Special:Diff/1166825517, Special:Diff/1167229773, Special:Diff/1167935777, Special:Diff/1168612971), as you did at Dominion (2018 film)), as you did at Dominion (2018 film." by User:Leyo.

I asked Leyo to explain their block here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Leyo#Your_block_of_User:KoA_was_inappropriate] They have now been inactive for almost two days so I have decided to proceed.

When I first noticed the block it didn't seem to be appropriate. It wasn't clear to me that they were reverting anyone on the 24th, the first diff. It was trimmed quite a bit, but as I understand it, that's not considered reverting if it isn't reverting a specific editor's text. As for their last actual revert, they posted to the article talk page at 17:43, July 31, 2023, no one responded, and at 22:43, August 3, 2023 they reverted. In other words, they waited over 3 days. I don't see that revert as edit warring. I'd probably revert if I'd posted to the talk page and waited that long (note that I'm not agreeing with the revert, simply saying that this wasn't edit warring as I understand it). What I hadn't realised is that Leyo is an involved editor - I only learned that from KoA's unblock request in which he wrote:

"I've had to caution Leyo about their behavior issues building over some years when they have been attacking me and edit warring in DS/CT topics. I specifically had to warn them about casting WP:ASPERSIONS in the GMO topic here and here as well as for the 1RR restrictions. I had to caution them specifically about the GMO restrictions again just a couple months ago yet again because Leyo was promoting a WP:FRINGE organization (denial of scientific consensus on GMOs) as reliable in this discussion where they were lashing out at me. A lot of that has focused on GMO-related content disputes like this too, so I'm worried that this pursuit is escalating into other agriculture related topics. They also made similar article talk comments You have a well-known history of man-on-a-mission edits. Your actions are not the consensus.[3] where another admin Smartse (though involved in the topic) had to caution Leyo about their pursuit of me.[4] That all started back in 2016 when they were taking to article talk to accuse me of having an agenda.[5] I've felt they haven't taken cautions I've given them seriously, but I never expected them to go this far and use admin tools as part of that interaction."

User:Smartse also responded to the unblock request agreeing that Leyo is WP:Involved. Doug Weller talk 07:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Prior to considering WP:INVOLVED, it does seem to be a bad block.

1. Leyo cited four diffs as evidence for the block: Special:Diff/1166825517, Special:Diff/1167229773, Special:Diff/1167935777, Special:Diff/1168612971. Of these, only three would traditionally be considered reverts, as the first is a change to long-standing content which has been in place since 2021.
2. Leyo didn't consider the talk page discussion. Before making the reverts in diffs 3 and 4 KoA went to the talk page. For #3 the editor who reverted them, Psychologist Guy, did not appear to oppose not characterizing the film as a "documentary", and for #4 the editor, Stonerock10, did not engage - while editors are not expected to satisfy other editors, they are expected to contribute to the discussion, and if they refuse to do so after sufficient time has passed it is reasonable to revert their revert. KoA's behavior was aligned with WP:BRD, and was not edit warring.
3. Counting the first "revert", the reverts took place across ten days. Four reverts over such an extended period, absent aggravating circumstances, should not result in an immediate block as such circumstances do not meet the requirements of WP:BLOCKPREVENTATIVE. Even if Leyo had been correct about this being edit warring a talk page warning should have been the first step, with a block only occurring if KoA did not desist.

Considering WP:INVOLVED, the evidence demonstrates long-standing animosity between Leyo and KoA, and on that basis I would call this a highly inappropriate WP:INVOLVED block, made more so by the fact that it was a bad block that even an uninvolved admin should not have made.

I am also curious how Leyo discovered the dispute at Dominion (2018 film); Leyo, would you be able to explain this to us? In the interests of resolving this, I am also hoping you can provide more information on why you believed a block was necessary, why you believed it was appropriate for you to make the block, and how you will ensure such mistakes do not reoccur. BilledMammal (talk) 11:01, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• I don't think they have a very good grasp of other policies too. SN54129 13:37, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• Seems like a drive-by admin job, to be honest, a bit lazy and sloppy. Plenty of reason to be suspicious of Stonerock10, the new account that jumped in only to edit that one article, but that is a reason to also not quick block KoA. There wasn't any reason to rush to block either editor, as this was happening rather slow, and KoA had at least started discussion. It's a perfect opportunity for an admin to give a STRONG warning on the article talk page, pinging both editors, to get them to actually discuss the content. I don't see it as abuse, per se, but I do think it was lazy and not optimal to resolve the issue. I would support unblocking both as being bad blocks that policy doesn't really support, being there was no urgency, no immediate "warring" taking place. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 18:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• I'm very concerned that this was a misuse of admin tools. I agree with what others say above, about how this doesn't really look like there was the kind of edit warring that would have justified the block. I want to expand on the INVOLVED aspect of the problem. The GMO topic area is defined as a Contentious Topic by ArbCom, one that I'm all too familiar with, as the filing party in that ArbCom case. Leyo was on the wrong side of the dispute in that CT area, albeit not in the use of admin permissions, but just as an editor. There is every reason to conclude that Leyo has subsequently held a grudge against KoA over it, and then capitalized on the perceived opportunity to issue a retaliatory block on KoA here. This is contrary to what we expect of admins, on multiple levels. Leyo has been inactive since the issue was raised, but I think that a clear response, on-site, is called for, as a matter of admin accountability. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• Question. On the occasions when I've been the victim of a bad block, I've been unblocked and my block log says unambiguously that the block was bad. But in this case the bad block's expired. Is there a way to repair the victim's block log or do they just have to suck it up?—S Marshall T/C 20:03, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  The block didn't expire. The victim's block log shows an unblock claiming Not at all clear that there was edit warring, blocking Admin seems to have been involved, which I guess doesn't outright say that the block is bad, but is close enough. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) That's long been something that has bothered me, too. (I long ago tried to get WMF to change the software, to allow such corrections, but it never went anywhere.) In this case, we have diffs on the record from KoA's talk page, where Doug Weller accepted the block review and unblocked, and said things similar to what he says here. So there's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:06, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I feel like the unblock log gives me at least enough to show the block had a red flag. If it comes up in conversation, I can always link the unblock diff, though a close summary here could be more helpful. What I've seen in the past where the first unblock wasn't clear (or block expired) was a quick reblock/unblock to make a log note if something needed to be absolutely clarified. That makes the block log look longer though, so I don't think that option is absolutely needed in my case unless someone has some really good additional clarification for the log. I think Doug worded it well without overextending since it sounds like they were also planning to post this review at the time. KoA (talk) 22:31, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Okay, well, it's good that there's a record of Doug Weller's concern about the block, but I'm with Tryptofish in that there should be a technical way to amend a block log (if only to add notes). I suppose one of the remedies we could consider in cases like this is ask the closer to make a minimal block (e.g. blocking from a test page for the minimum possible time) to enable them to make a corrective entry in the block log --- because whenever KoA's having to explain their block log with diffs, that will always mean they're getting undeserved consequences from the block.—S Marshall T/C 07:44, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

  From a technical standpoint, I imagine being able to edit log entries opens a big can of worms. Who can edit it? Does a revision system need to be created to track what it used to be and who is doing the editing? Could a compromised account go in and start mass editing logs as a form of vandalism? Could a compromised account go in, do a bunch of destructive things, then edit the logs to cover their tracks? Reasons such as these, and also technical simplicity, are likely the reasons that devs have chosen not to allow editing Speical:Log reasons. Hope this helps. –Novem Linguae (talk) 20:23, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• Leyo has been an admin since 2010. At their RfA, they stated, "More important than what administrative work I intend to take part in is what I would not be doing: Deleting articles or blocking users (apart from short-term blocks of IP users continuing to vandalize after warnings)." And, indeed, from 2010 to 2022 they only made 46 blocks, pretty much all of which appear to fit with their statement (IPs and brand new vandalising accounts). Since 15 May this year they have made 140 more blocks; and again, pretty much every one seems to be pure vandalism and other disruption ... except the block of KoA. It isn't a good look, given their previous interactions. I would be interested to see what they have to say. Black Kite (talk) 20:52, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• A bad block considering KoA's editing pattern and use of the talkpage, and a fortiori a bad block considering the past history between Leyo and KoA. It was not a situation to use admin tools in. Thanks to User:Doug Weller for unblocking as promptly as possible, with a clear rationale in the log. Bishonen | tålk 21:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC).
• As the one who was blocked, if anyone wants to see what my thinking was on avoiding edit warring and using the talk page, I'd suggest reading the full section on my talk page. In short, we had a lot of iterative edits and content being crafted over time on the talk page or just through clarifications as part of stubifying the article like discussion with Psychologist Guy. Other cases, like Stonerock10, were dealing with SPAs/IPs that really weren't engaging, and I think Doug Weller summarized that balancing act navigating through that above very well. I made it pretty clear I was just planning to stick to the talk page in previous edit summaries and talk comments at that point, so I don't think WP:PREVENTATIVE was followed at all.

There was a lot going on at the article with behavior issues from SPAs where I was wondering about potential socks, etc., but I'm not planning to also sort those out here except to say that it would have made sorting things out for even an uninvolved admin messy. If I was wearing an admin hat and trying to address the core issues there, I'd maybe be looking at semi-protection for the IP issues, remind folks to just use the talk page at that point instead of reverting back and forth, or maybe full protection at most.

The INVOLVED aspect is what really worried me though. I had been dealing with low-level sniping and poisoning the well comments from Leyo on article talk pages for years now as linked above. Early on, I considered them problematic as they continued, but I never asked for help at WP:AE because they seemed sporadic enough and better just to caution and then move on. The combination of behavior towards me as well as the content dispute issues Tryptofish mentions though had me thinking something might boil over in the future, but I never imagined they'd go so far as using admin tools. I wouldn't go as far as Tryptofish's comment on holding a grudge per se, but it's definitely a longstanding pursuit, especially since it seems to have continued into an article I just put on my watchlist recently. KoA (talk) 22:13, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate some comments on targets of INVOLVED blocks not having to be responsible for explaining themselves. While the main focus here is on INVOLVED, I'd also rather make sure I clarify now what was going on in my edits in the context of North8000's #2 framework below just in case since I'm really short on available time this week (and next to none for editing because of this). Doug Weller and BilledMammal already summarized the diffs well too though:

Walkthrough of KoA's edits

18:16, July 23, 2023: This was part of a much larger set of the July 23 edits as part of the cleanup of the article. I was careful about splitting up with edit summaries in case there was any particular issue that someone could address on the talk page. 08:04, July 26, 2023: First true revert on my part, which was in response to the Victoria IP blanket reverting in that diff all changes in the previous edit, ref improvements, etc. and immediately slinging accusations of bad-faith in the edit summary. It was pretty clear the IP was going by personal POV and doing a pretty textbook disruptive blanket revert, so I reminded them in the edit summary to come to the talk page to discuss specific edits. That the one piece of lead text Leyo focused in on was a legitimate issue was not clear yet, just part of a large IP revert that seemed to have missed the description was directly sourced. There was another Victoria IP that very briefly visited the talk page on July 30, but they never really addressed specific content. This pretty inflammatory talk page section was opened by another very low edit account Jesse Flynn (pseudonym) on the 26th though, with comments later by another such account Person568. It was odd seeing that many "red-linked" near-SPA accounts, but I decided to focus on content, not to consider a possible sock-puppet investigation, and just focus on that none of them really brought up specific issues with the lead text other than not liking it. 13:18, July 30, 2023: This was an update to the original version I had in the previous diff on the lead text after Psychologist Guy removed it (without initial explanation).[6] Based on the talk page shortly after their removal, it looked like there was just confusion that the text "anti-farming" (i.e., anti-livestock farming) was actually directly sourced and wasn't any type of editorializing. Once I had mentioned that, no one brought up any issues with that part of the text (and we were agreeing on ways to stubify the article), so it looked like the issue had been clarified enough that we were pulling the description directly from sources. That is why you see sources being moved up to the first sentence to avoid potential confusion on the origin. This was also very much a wordsmithing stage on talk, hence my very next edit summary move production detail down, happy to chat on talk if more wordsmithing is needed, but we should be fairly solid for a stub now[7] 5:43, August 3, 2023:The last true revert, which was of the brand new account Stonerock10's calling the sources depictions of the film ridiculous on July 30.[8]. Instead of reverting right away, which could have been valid but not great by just responding to personal editor WP:OR (and a drive-by tag without talk page engagement), I instead posted to the talk page over 3 days prior to my last revert waiting for a response.[9] I'm not sure if they are the Victoria IP from earlier based on context they've given, but it looked like Stonerock10 was continuing the trend of the previous IP of being combative and not really engaging. I did revert here basically as a response to personal editor WP:OR after allowing plenty of time for them to explain if the issue was anything besides them not liking the source's depiction. Had someone spoken up on what the specific concern was, either prior to or after last edit, I would have been just using the talk page at that point as I alluded to in previous edit summaries.

I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to protect articles from edit warring behavior as a non-admin for over a decade, so if my edits are a main focus while I'm out, I'd ask if given the full context, did they really fall outside (or rather below) the norms of judgement editors are expected to exercise when dealing with these types of edits? In total, I only had two true obvious reverts (2 & 4) over about a week where that type of revert is not unexpected in how we deal with combative IPs/SPAs that are prone to just edit war their preferred text if there isn't some firmness. At the same time, I was also being measured in taking time to explain to them the content was sourced and to get them to bring up specific concerns on the talk page despite the sniping. There's no perfect way to deal with such IPs, but I've seen a lot of experienced editors deal with similar situations much more harshly rather than try to guide them to the talk page.

If an admin had come to my talk page concerned about edit warring, I would have welcomed it and wanted to walk through all the different issues I was juggling to try get the talk page working smoothly. Despite all the indications I left at the article/talk for focusing on the talk page, even though Leyo was INVOLVED as an admin, nothing should have stopped them from first coming to my talk page as a regular editor to ask about the situation. Had Leyo approached it that way, I could have assumed WP:BELLYBUTTON and filled them in on what they had missed in the actual dispute even with my ongoing concern about their long-standing pursuit of me. KoA (talk) 22:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. I was on a multi-day mountain hike over the long weekend. I only returned late last night, i.e. too late to turn on the computer. As I need to leave for work very soon, I can only answer the most urgent questions now: It's clearly a (slow) edit war over the phrase "vegan anti-livestock farming film" in the first sentence of the lede: After introducing it first (which obviously was fine), the user started a (slow) edit-war (Special:Diff/1167229773, Special:Diff/1167935777, Special:Diff/1168612971), even though there was no consensus for this phrase on the talk page. In fact, there weren't any users who shared KoA's view. I certainly acknowledge that KoA engaged in the discussion on the talk page. However, especially during the holiday season, one cannot assume that the other editors were convinced and there is thus consensus, just because they didn't reply for a few days. In order to prevent the edit-warring from continuing, I blocked both Stonerock10 (talk · contribs), an account that was created for the sole purpose of engaging in an ongoing edit-war, and KoA for having inserted the same wording in the lede four times (three of which being aware of the lack of consensus). As stated, this was clearly edit-warring in my view. I would like to ask fellow admins, how many additional reverting cycles they think would have been needed to wait? --Leyo 07:05, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Leyo, I don't want to stress you out or push for more haste on your part, at all, but IMO you are answering only the least important question. I won't engage with what you say about the edit war; I'll just wait till you address whether or not you agree you were WP:INVOLVED, as many people above believe you were. That includes the OP, Doug Weller, who opened this review. Take your time. Bishonen | tålk 07:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC).

To add to this, I believe the other important question is how you found the dispute on this page. As far as I can tell you have never engaged with it, nor was the dispute reported at any other forum. BilledMammal (talk) 11:28, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@BilledMammal I notified them as required by the instructions. Doug Weller talk 11:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Sorry, I was unclear. By "this page", I meant Dominion (2018 film). BilledMammal (talk) 11:37, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

That makes sense, thanks for the clarification. Doug Weller talk 13:37, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

• I have decided to remove the block of Stonerock10(Leyo said I could take what action I felt appropriate); I feel an immediate, sitewide block with no warning beforehand was out of proportion to the conduct even as viewed by Leyo. I haven't dived into the depths of this discussion enough to be able to comment on the involved aspect. 331dot (talk) 08:04, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Leyo, as others have said, it's more about INVOLVED. We've all dealt with this, so we can understand. Can you look into your own thinking and maybe reconsider? What I'd personally like to hear is something along the lines of, "Fair point, my bad. I'll be more careful in future." Valereee (talk) 23:27, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion of who may request a review. I suggest further discussion of this take place at WT:XRV. BilledMammal (talk) 16:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
In my view, this review request should be procedurally declined without examination of the merits. The community should entertain unblock requests (including in this forum) only from the blocked user, not from third parties. Absent a complaint by the injured party themselves, we have no indication that this is a live issue that warrants examination. Sandstein 11:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC) @Sandstein No, the instructions clearly say "Any editor in good standing may request a review or participate in discussing an action being reviewed." I'm pretty sure I qualify to request a review. While we are discussing procedurally declined, the review above that you initiated ignored procedure as "Before listing a review request, try to resolve the matter by discussing it with the performer of the action." You didn't do that. Doug Weller talk 11:31, 7 August 2023 (UTC) And of course you weren’t the blocked user in the review you started. Doug Weller talk 12:29, 7 August 2023 (UTC) Yes, but as the admin whose block was overturned I am personally affected by the contested admin action. You are not personally affected by the block of another user. As regards the above case, there was discussion between Bishonen and me in the AN/I thread. Sandstein 13:04, 7 August 2023 (UTC) Is this comment in the right place? It looks like it's germane to the hatted section, not Leyo's block of KoA. Jclemens (talk) 15:20, 7 August 2023 (UTC) I disagree. Requiring an editor who has been perhaps unfairly blocked to file a request here puts that editor at further risk, especially if the community ends up on balance disagreeing with them. Valereee (talk) 12:30, 7 August 2023 (UTC) Yes, but that is the nature of our dispute resolution process. Conversely, if a third party requests the unblock of another user, this lets the blocked user avoid taking responsibility for their own conduct which led to the block. That should in my view not be accepted. Sandstein 13:06, 7 August 2023 (UTC) If the user was blocked by an admin who 1. mistakenly believed they had done something wrong and 2. was involved, what do they have to take responsibility for? And even if that weren't the case, this didn't come here as an unblock request. It came here for review of a possibly bad block by an admin many are seeing as involved. Valereee (talk) 13:10, 7 August 2023 (UTC) @Sandstein I don't understand why you are still arguing this, which contradicts the instructions. If you want them changed, use the talk page. As it stands, any editor in good standing can initiate a review, as I did. Don't tell me I had right to do that. And you are changing your statement from your initial "The community should entertain unblock requests (including in this forum) only from the blocked user, not from third parties." Are you now retracting that and saying that anyone "who was personally affected" can do it, but I can't because all I did was the unblock of the affected user? Let's just follow the very clear instructions and not try to restrict who can bring cases here. Doug Weller talk 14:36, 7 August 2023 (UTC) @Doug Weller, I have made my view on your request clear and do not believe it needs further elucidation. Your repeated personally confrontative comments here and on another talk page regarding an unrelated matter are problematic in view of WP:BLUDGEON. Sandstein 14:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC) If you disagree with the criteria or requirements to bring an issue to this board, you should seek a change in those requirements. The instructions clearly state that any editor in good standing can request a review. 331dot (talk) 16:02, 7 August 2023 (UTC) This isn't an unblock request. KoA had already been unblocked - and, yes, it was after they posted a request for review - for a day and a half before this was raised here. —Cryptic 13:38, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

IMO we should have a "finding" even if no further action is contemplated. I propose the following:

It was a bad block. While the following are not findings individually:

1. The main and most clear-cut concern concern wp:involved, followed by
2. It's questionable whether KoA did even a minor violation of policies
3. Even if the answer to #2 were "yes", the block was an overkill

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:28, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that in principle every valid review should have a finding. A difficulty is that the nominator, User:Doug Weller, did not make a clear statement of their desired outcome. From my reading, it was a bad block, at best a poor block. There appears to be a consensus that User:Leyo did not abide by the general rule stated in WP:INVOLVED. Should Leyo be advised, chastised, warned?

I would add that it is probably a bad idea to perform blocks closely preceding going offline for an extended period. SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:33, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

::@SmokeyJoe, I didn't think it appropriate to suggest an outcome before discussion (and preferably before Leyo responded although I wasn't sure if they would be coming back soon). I still would prefer to hear from them first, although after that if they still doesn't accept that they were involved I think a warning would be appropriate. Doug Weller talk 06:50, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@SmokeyJoe this board can only endorse or not endorse the reviewed action. If you desire chastisement or anything stronger then you need AN or AN/I. Thryduulf (talk) 08:31, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@User:ThryduulfMy bad. The instructions say:

"The closer should summarize the consensus reached in the discussion and clearly state whether the action is endorsed, not endorsed, or if there is no consensus.

After a review

Any follow-up outcomes of a review are deferred to existing processes. Individual actions can be reversed by any editor with sufficient permissions. Permissions granted at WP:PERM may be revoked by an administrator." Doug Weller talk 12:58, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

BTW, the result of the RFC that created this board was based on a broad process. NONE of the other particular "rules" of this board has achieved consensus, they are there from a more or less random unreviewed process. IMO this board should make a finding or findings. It can be created by the process rather than the initial nomination/post. Again, a finding even if no further action is contemplated. I would not necessarily push for an admission of guilt as Doug recommended as that can have unintended future consequences in our sometimes weaponized systems. BTW, my proposed finding deliberately avoided a specific finding on "involved" Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 14:07, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

User:North8000 Why avoid a finding on "involved" - that's the central issue. If Leyo does conclude that they were involved, why not let them say so? We can't push them to it. I can't see where I used the word guilt. Doug Weller talk 16:29, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, it's the most serious thing on the menu. SN54129 16:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree as well. If not here, then we certainly to hear from Leyo somewhere, that they now understand WP:INVOLVED and that they acknowledge that it was a mistake to make this block given the circumstances. SmartSE (talk) 17:00, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: @Serial Number 54129: I agree with both of you. Sorry that I was misleading by failure to explain. Regarding "no specific finding of involved" I was merely explaining the rationale of my 17:28, 7 August 2023 post. Which I considered to be a "safe" proposal, based on what already had been discussed, and playing it "safe" as someone proposing a finding vs. no finding. I agree that it would be better to make a specific finding on the "involved" violation. And sorry if the use of the word "guilt" was too strong in my summary of your post; I thought it was accurate but sorry if it was overkill. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 17:15, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in answering due to RL. Regarding the article Dominion (2018 film), I am certainly not involved: I haven't contributed to the article or to its talk page. I have also rarely edited in articles related to the topics animal rights, veganism/vegetarianism or Australian agriculture. Furthermore, I haven't watched this film. Moreover, I'm not a vegan/vegetarian, nor is anyone in my family. My grandfather was even a butcher. As for the user, I can partly understand why some people think I'm involved because of the warnings I've issued to the user due to his conduct. It is difficult to draw a line, where an involvement begins. Doug Weller has recently blocked a user (Gtoffoletto) with whom KoA has been involved in disputes and edit-wars. I'm not sure whether this admin was the ideal one to unblock the other opponent with the reasoning of admin involvement. As stated above, I strongly disagree that it was a bad block, if the admin performing it is not taken into consideration. I would also like to note that KoA seems to have two distinctly different approaches to content disputes, depending on whether he prefers the pre-dispute/edit-war version or the other one:

• If he prefers the pre-dispute/edit-war version, he won't allow any changes, unless a consensus on the talk page is reached (which can't be reached since he opposes, even if the majority would agree). Even when KoA is involved in the reverting/edit-war (sometimes even as the only one from "his side"), he uses edit summaries that give the impression that he is acting as an uninvolved user or even as an admin. Examples:
  • Restore to before edit warring (again). Editor was already aware they needed to get consensus for these changes on the talk page.
  • Clean up blatant edit warring at this point. IP has already been told to use the talk page.
  • Undo edit warring. This is just repeating the same issues that have been brought up in previous edits and talk page discussion with no substantive changes. Editor has been reminded multiple times to get consensus for these edits first per WP:ONUS policy.
  • Undo edit warring. Please follow WP:ONUS and previous comments on the underlying content issues here and use the talk page.
  • Please do not edit war and instead follow WP:ONUS policy by using the talk page. We absolutely should not be using sources like Gilliam who have a conflict of interest with the organic industry and relying more in sources able to handle WP:MEDRS topics.
• As seen in Dominion (2018 film), the attitude is completely different, if KoA disagrees with the pre-edit-war version: In such a case, he considers several reverts to be fine, after only waiting a few days to see if the other users repeat their disagreement.

That's all for now. --Leyo 00:17, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• • The fact that you can't see this as a bad block, while a decent sized group of experienced editors and admin DO see it as a bad block is troubling. More troubling than the bad blocks (plural) themselves. I would strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with current expectations of admin. Arb is littered with desysop cases where the admin dug in and saw no problem with their actions, even in the face of unanimous opposition. When you are the only one that thinks that it is ok, then it probably isn't ok. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
    • I agree with what Dennis said. I also want to add that I find it very troubling that Leyo characterizes not having been INVOLVED with the film page as constituting not being INVOLVED. That's plainly not understanding what the administrator policy says, nor what editors here have been saying. This looks to me like it's going to ArbCom unless Leyo can turn this around pretty fast. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:06, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
  • Leyo, I share the concerns of the above users, but I am also hoping that you can answer my previous question: How did you discover that there was a dispute at Dominion (2018 film)? BilledMammal (talk) 01:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
• Leyo I'm trying to remember the last INVOLVED block issue that went to ArbCom that didn't result in a resignation or desysop. If you can't find it within you to say "I have been educated, and understand why I should not have been the one to place the block" then please just save everyone the drama and post at WP:BN asking to have your bit removed. Harsh? Direct, certainly, but I really don't think you want what's coming if you don't acknowledge that the community's perspective--and the cast of characters chiming in here look pretty representative to me. This isn't a threat of action--I won't be the one filing an ArbCom case, and see no reason to comment if one is filed--but a warning of what my perspective on past similar cases suggests is coming next. Jclemens (talk) 06:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  As a brief reaction between two meetings: I apologize that I haven't expressed myself clear enough in my last edit (English was only the fourth language I had learnt). I do acknowledge that my block was inappropriate. Every now and then, I follow the RecentChanges, where I noticed that there is an ongoing dispute. Regarding "not having been INVOLVED with the film page as constituting not being INVOLVED": I had split my answer in two parts: Involvement in relation to the topic and in relation to the user. I only said that I'm not involved concerning the former. --Leyo 07:29, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  Every now and then, I follow the RecentChanges, where I noticed that there is an ongoing dispute. KoA made the edit at 21:45; 22:58 is when you took the first action in relation to this dispute. In between that time there were 6000 edits to articles; I'm sorry, but I don't find it plausible that you found KoA's edit in the RecentChanges log.

  My concern was that you were stalking KoA's edits due to your recent disputes, and your reply has unfortunately not addressed that concern; if you were then it makes the WP:INVOLVED issue significantly worse. BilledMammal (talk) 08:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  Well, as opposed to IP vandalism and similar, as always in such cases, it took me quite some time to go through the article's history and the talk page, to reflect (even while doing some simple admin stuff), to prepare the diffs, etc. --Leyo 09:43, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

  I hadn't noticed it until you pushed on it BilledMammal, but as far as I'm aware, every interaction I've highlighted with Leyo has been a topic I've been working on where they come in after me. Whether it is tracking my contribs directly or singling me out of the recent changes list as they mention, I do get the sense they are following me around even outside the main content and behavior disputes in the GMO/pesticide area we've had.

That includes showing up shortly after I comment even outside mainspace like at Headbomb's user talk recently. They ended up in that first conversation about 4 hours after I first commented and immediately restarted the aspersion behavior with Overall, actions of certain users seem to have led to a bias in the selection of references used in this field.[10] That seems to be the recurring issue here of Leyo pursuing me despite multiple warnings about personal attacks, lobbing aspersions, etc. and still taking whatever opportunity they can to snipe at me instead of disengaging. Coupled with the hounding you describe, I am worried that a potential desysop still wouldn't put a stop to the hounding. KoA (talk) 18:55, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

If one user is hounding another the usual remedy is an interaction ban (IBAN), with blocks for breaches. If imposed (and it cannot be done here) this would be independent of any desysop, although some (many?) members of the community feel that an admin who needs an interaction ban should not be an admin this view is not universal. Thryduulf (talk) 20:28, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking if the message doesn't get across here (it never really quite came to a head before this), but yes, not something for this board to do in terms of sanctions. The main topic is under GMO/pesticide CT though, so that's something for admins, AE, etc. later if needed. In the meantime though, just reiterating the degree of hounding that led to the battleground attitude/INVOLVED aspect. KoA (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Several years ago, I became aware of a mass removal of references to websites of NGOs. While some removals were clearly warranted, they weren't in several other cases in my view (depending on the context). One of the NGOs affected was the Environmental Working Group. I added this article to my watchlist at that time, but since the topic is not within my primary interests, I haven't contributed to it until recently (two minor edits). On 2 June 2023, I noticed on my watchlist the many edits by User:Gtoffoletto to that article. Since I didn't remember having seen this user before, I had a look at their user page and current contributions. That's how I became aware of the discussion at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable. --Leyo 21:50, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

When Leyo writes above about becoming aware of User talk:Headbomb/unreliable, I think they may be referring to this specific discussion on the page and this specific discussion, both of them from from June 2023, (and maybe others), and both of them now archived from the page in question. Am I right, User:Leyo? That page seems to be fairly aggressively archived, so it's helpful to use permanent links if you want people to be able to read what you point them to. Bishonen | tålk 00:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC).

I can confirm that. Those links have been provided elsewhere, but those are the two conversations (no others) where we interacted on that page. The first you link is what I linked above with the certain users comment, and the second is where I cautioned them about promoting organizations the push denial of the consensus on GMOs. Especially by the second discussion, it should have been an abundant reminder of how they were involved both in terms of content disputes within GMOs/pesticides with me, but also on the behavior side with the aspersions with my last comment there. KoA (talk) 04:06, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Although I appreciate your comments acknowledging some culpability in the block, I continue to feel uncomfortable with the way that you are discussing these issues. There's a common thread running through that edit history, and it's KoA. Gtoffoleto was blocked for, pretty much, the same kinds of comments that you have directed at KoA. Above, you question the impartiality of Doug Weller in this, but that assertion is seriously misplaced. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm also concerned this is a "say sorry but continue the problem behavior" situation basically dismissing what led to this and instead are now passing off their attacks and sniping as "warnings" in their top-level comment: As for the user, I can partly understand why some people think I'm involved because of the warnings I've issued to the user due to his conduct. That isn't recognizing at all what caused them to be involved. Then you have comments like It is difficult to draw a line, where an involvement begins. when it started practically from the very start of the interaction in 2016 when they accused me of having an agenda[11] on an article talk page followed by them being warned about the DS at the time[12] and all the following warnings I had to give them basically about WP:TPNO and the related aspersions issues in GMO subjects especially.

Obviously I'm getting a bit frustrated due to Leyo doubling down on mischaracterizations, but I think the continued bad-faith accusations on article talk pages and here show a battleground mentality that's relevant to an eventual close here. That attitude likely contributed to poor judgement on them somehow thinking they weren't involved but also insisting on a very different story at the Dominion article with the if KoA disagrees with the pre-edit-war version comment despite what I said prior elsewhere many times, including my unblock request, and clarified at this board about how I approached the editing at the article. Had their depiction been true, I wouldn't have been working so hard on crafting content on the talk page, taking care with edit button, or trying to handle the situation BilledMammal described as #2 in their first post.

That's really enough from me since I've said enough (and it's really up to others to review at this point), but there is a point where Leyo is getting so loose with mischaracterizations that they are getting too unwieldy to address, especially with limited time on my part. KoA (talk) 04:38, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Leyo, from this whole thread it was pretty clear that the main "involved" issue was your history with Koa, not your history with the article. Yet your post (to me) looks like "not involved at the article = not involved". IMO this indicates a lack or understanding and or a lack of reading this thread. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 12:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

No. "Gotcha" is bad for this board. There are two issues, was it a bad block as a matter of substance (edit warring) and was this block bad as a matter of procedure (INVOLVED). And no, if you re-read the first comment Leyo, separates the two ("if the admin performing it is not taken into consideration"). They also followed up "I do acknowledge that my block was inappropriate." (emphasis added)

On both issues, substance, it appears Leyo has a case, even if not every admin would do the same thing, as for procedure, Leyo has a mitigation, they viewed their warnings of prior behavior as administrative, but realize now because they were about in part behavior toward Leyo, they should not have been the one to block. Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

??? @Alanscottwalker: No "gotcha" was intended nor do I see it in my post. It was based on the only "involved" addressed was regarding the article, which is not the main "involved" discussed in this thread. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:08, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

No, the article was not the only involved issue discussed, they addressed both, involved based in the article, and the involved based in prior warnings. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:42, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

(EC) That is not what I intended to express. I just discussed the two different forms of potential involvement (article/topic in general vs. user) separately. --Leyo 12:26, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

• Current concerns I have a few ongoing concerns here.
  1. I am concerned that Leyo has been hounding KoA, and used admin tools to further this hounding. I am concerned about this because:
     • Of the 191 blocks they have made, only one has been of an established editor - KoA. To put this in context, the second most prolific editor they have blocked, Jellyfish042, has made just 55 edits. I find it difficult to believe that the first time Leyo blocks an established editor they just happen to be one they have an ongoing dispute with
     • Of the history that Leyo has with turning up to discussions after KoA has engaged, despite no prior engagement on the relevant page
     • Of the long term dispute that Leyo and KoA have had.
     • The circumstances of the block (as discussed above) are difficult to reconcile with them not following KoA's edits, whether it is by looking at KoA's contribution page, or by taking special notice of KoA's edits when they turn up on Special:RecentChanges. I note that in between the time that KoA made their edit and Leyo took action related to the dispute, Leyo blocked five other editors, protected one page, and dismissed one bot-reported vandalism case.
  2. Leyo hasn't accepted that this was a bad block if the admin performing it is not taken into consideration. Even without considering that, it was a bad block; KoA wasn't engaged in edit warring, and even if they were the dispute was very slow moving; under such circumstances the tool admins should be reaching for is a warning, not an immediate block, as there is no WP:PREVENTATIVE value to such a block. I would
  3. While Leyo appears to have accepted the consensus here that they are involved, it doesn't appear that they believe this absent the consensus; As for the user, I can partly understand why some people think I'm involved because of the warnings I've issued to the user due to his conduct. It is difficult to draw a line, where an involvement begins.

For #3, to address this I think Leyo needs to present an explanation for how they will avoid WP:INVOLVED blocks in the future; for #2, I would want to see Leyo accept that is was a bad block in general, as well as pledge to be less quick with blocks in the future.

For #1, I am not certain how best to address this. A one-way IBAN might be in order, or alternatively, particularly if Leyo doesn't present a suitable explanation for how they will avoid involved blocks in the future, a topic ban from blocking extended-confirmed editors? Such a topic ban should have no impact on Leyo's normal behavior, given that the only extended-confirmed editor they have ever blocked is KoA, but should prevent repeats of this incident. Of course, neither of these can be imposed here, and we would need to transfer the discussion to WP:ANI. BilledMammal (talk) 05:30, 10 August 2023 (UTC)