Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force

Expanding use of the project

While there's always potential for warm and positive, in the interim this task force can and should be used for problem solving the problem of not enough female participation in en.Wikipedia. It's not just a place to link to techno-solutions.

So per the scope statement on the main page, in order to identify gender bias on Wikipedia – whether in articles, discussions, policies or implementation of policies – and to take steps to counter it, as well as to raise awareness of how it can affect editorial and other decisions we should consider:

• linking to various relevant articles/essays/projects within en.wikipedia and wikimedia regarding the topic.
• writing an essay prominently advertised here on the problems women face and solutions to those problems through wiki dispute resolution processes, existing "support" type pages, etc.; writing another essay on how men and women can work together more successfully in community, etc., considering some concepts in this geekfeminism article.
• thinking up policy tweaks and changes, like regarding WP:Civility and WP:Harassment, to make Wikipedia more comfortable for women.
• posting at the very least links to a variety of topical behavior/policy/etc. issues - including relevant ANIs and Arbitrations and noticeboard postings - that directly affect the gender gap and at least discussing them here and/o getting involved on an individual basis if it seems relevant.
• learning what other projects are doing right. (I heard on gender gap email list the Serb women are the most active. I know the ones I've met are very smart and forthright.)
• promoting the various women-related projects to women editors. I was a member of this task force for a year or so, unwatched it in a moment of general frustration, and completely forgot it existed! So it pays to advertise!
• Other ideas?

So there's lots that can be done here without it becoming a touchy feeling consciousness raising group, as much fun as that would be Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:10, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

That's brilliant stuff, Carol, thanks for writing it up. I have to go offline shortly, so I can't respond more now, but I will tomorrow. The essay is a really good idea. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:19, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Here's another idea I came up with on Gender gap email list but thought I'd pass by here first, regarding statistically interesting facts we might find on who does/supports AfD's of articles about or related to women: It would be interesting to see if there is a pattern of certain individuals AfDing (and/or coming by to support AfDing) articles because of bias against women. If it's found, a few of us could leave them some nice notes on their talk pages about our findings. :-) (I'm such a nudge!) Thoughts? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:04, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Carol, this is an interesting idea. I doubt whether such users would be found, but you never know. I just "lost" Patricia Ainsworth, but there was no hope of keeping it (her?) without more substantive references. How would you identify bias? How would you rule out, for example, someone who was interested in new articles about women, and as a result only AfD'd articles about women? Indeed once the article is gone it's hard to identify if it is about women or a woman. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:11, 2 August 2014 (UTC).

Suggestions for strategies to address the gender gap

We had some great suggestions above from Carolmooredc such as:

:*linking to various relevant articles/essays/projects within en.wikipedia and wikimedia regarding the topic.

• writing an essay prominently advertised here on the problems women face and solutions to those problems through wiki dispute resolution processes, existing "support" type pages, etc.; writing another essay on how men and women can work together more successfully in community, etc., considering some concepts in this geekfeminism article.
• thinking up policy tweaks and changes, like regarding WP:Civility and WP:Harassment, to make Wikipedia more comfortable for women.
• posting at the very least links to a variety of topical behavior/policy/etc. issues - including relevant ANIs and Arbitrations and noticeboard postings - that directly affect the gender gap and at least discussing them here and/o getting involved on an individual basis if it seems relevant.
• learning what other projects are doing right. (I heard on gender gap email list the Serb women are the most active. I know the ones I've met are very smart and forthright.)
• promoting the various women-related projects to women editors. I was a member of this task force for a year or so, unwatched it in a moment of general frustration, and completely forgot it existed! So it pays to advertise!

Since we are thinking about sub-pages, I'd like to add the suggestion of:

• creating a sub-page for discussion of specific issues and/or specific concerns that seem related to the gender gap. Sort of discussion forum for specific instances which seem related to the gap. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 18:02, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• I'd add to my list, gathering evidence of systemic actions vs. women editors that might lead to a) Community sanctions; and if not effective b) arbitration with discretionary sanctions. (Collection done in a wiki-proper way, off wiki if necessary.) Perhaps just the knowledge this project (or members thereof) was gathering such info might be helpful. If issues continued and various evidences from talk page/noticeboard/other sources reached a critical mass, then some women with immediate concerns could be complainant(s) with their specific issues, and project members could add diffs of the various collected evidences and their requestions for Community Sanctions for such behaviors. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:12, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
• Today I recommended women read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution to learn how to deal with conflict issues. Then just reread it and saw that it definitely needs work explaining processes better for new editors and women, who may be less willing to use them if they are not very clear. Also there needs to be some reference to the existance of Community and Arbitration sanctions and how to bring up the fact they exist and, if necessary, tag someone's talk page about it to get their attention. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 00:43, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the gap could be better improved if we actually tackled some of wikipedia's policies. Their standards for what constitutes neutrality, notability and reliability tend to systematically disenfranchise women and people of colour's knowledge and experience on this site. Also I find it incredibly frustrating that when contributing to gender-related issues, I have to fend my contributions off from overzealous, rule-obsessed editors who delete them even though I have more expertise and better evidence than they do. Is the goal supposed to be to enhance the availability and access to public knowledge about an issue or not? I am pretty sure a lot of editors on this site aren't thinking about that. Maybe having more "affirmative action" type things will help, but given how dismally those policies tend to benefit minorities offline, I'm convinced there needs to be a more systemic approach.--femmebot 20:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magsmacaulay (talk • contribs)

Proposal to delete categories involving literature by women.

There is a proposal to delete categories involving literature by women, including deleting Literature by African-American women, Literature by Asian-American women, Literature by Native American women, Literature by Hispanic and Latino American women. See discussion here: [link to discussion]. __ E L A Q U E A T E 23:34, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Deletion discussion for Category:Women historians

I hope this won't be considered as canvassing, but Category:Women historians is being discussed for deletion here. This is one of many, many gender-specific categories for women in an occupation where gender would seem to be an irrelevant qualifier in present day. As with almost all of these categories, there is no Category:Male historians. This would appear to be a useful discussion to gauge the community's current feeling on this issue, which I understand is the subject of a longstanding concern. Nigel Pap (talk) 04:12, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

When there are as many or more women historians with important positions in academia as male, then it may become irrelevant. Right now it remains a factoid of interest; but not something that should get them removed from the category:historians. I think we need a more rational, less agenda-driven (perhaps moderated) discussion of this some point so the task force itself can come up with a policy as a group. Another "To do" item, no doubt. (Note that it would help for us all to study Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality so we'd understand better what is happening now, though I get the impression it is in a disorganized and/or inconsistent fashion.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:42, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I understand what you are saying. What generally happens is that women get removed from the main category ("Category:X") and placed in a subcategory ("Category:Women X"). Deleting the "Category Women X" means that those entries will be moved back to the main category. It is the existence of these categories that removes women, not the deletion of them. Nigel Pap (talk) 19:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Nigel Pap, it seems a better solution to the problem you mention would involve explicit instructions/guidelines indicating that women should not be removed from parent category, when placed in the sub-category, rather than outright deletion of valuable women categories.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 20:03, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

How are they valuable? Nigel Pap (talk) 20:14, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

They are valuable to this wikiproject because one of our goals is to improve articles affected by the systemic bias of so few female editors, and articles relating to women/women's topics seem to be disproportionally affected by this bias. Having such categories helps target articles for review. Such categories are also valuable to readers interested in finding women historians, because considering the general biases in our society, women historians tend to have unique struggles compared to male historians, and in many cases differing perspectives and differing focus of academic study to be more inclusive of women's issues.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 20:29, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

I do not disagree with your assumption that female historians tend to be aware of and focused on women's issues, but that is a generalization that I am not comfortable applying to all female historians. When the discussion is about female engineers or mathematicians, the basis of these categories becomes even more tenuous. If this Wikiproject is using the categories for maintenance, a wikiproject template incorporating a rating would be much more useful. Nigel Pap (talk) 20:53, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

This is a bit of a distraction. There is also no deep difference in how an American or Polish person would be a mathematician, but we set up separate categories because it helps users find instances of roughly common experiences based on the characteristic. In the case of most women's categories, this is done in areas where there is scholarly interest in how women's experiences in certain fields are roughly but still somehow significantly different than the experiences of most men in the field, regardless of the specific work done. And this situation is also not an all-or-nothing, "all the subjects must have the same characteristics otherwise". To compare, we categorize American historians knowing that the individual entries included are often wildly different beyond sharing a line in their passports.__ E L A Q U E A T E 22:19, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Good point. Nigel Pap (talk) 02:11, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Obviously a project under categorization is to make sure if women have been removed from a parent and put only in the subcategory, they be put in the main category. On the other hand, I see that Category:Jewish_writers does not have a lot of individuals also in Category:Writer, and I'm sure if that was such a "ghettoization issue", some editors would be having a fit about it.

Clearer principles would help, as mentioned elsewhere. Sometimes a parent category seems to be a catch all for bios no one knew how to or cared to put into subcategories. Other times it seems like a badge of honor and removal to be "ghettoization". The whole thing seems pretty arbitrary, leading to conflict. If there is some principle, let's make it clear. If not, just say that people can be put in both - because some people ARE put in both - and leave it that way if you find it. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 19:49, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

This is a frequent bone of contention and could indeed benefit from wider discussion. To begin with, it really grates on me to use this bizarre grammatical construction. I feel like "women historians", like "women drivers", is a sort of slur; like it was devised to imply they don't belong there. "Women in historical research" or "female historians" would be fair grammar; but it is still bad policy. It should be clear that we don't want a bunch of categories like Category:Black gay Hispanic soccer players, unless there's a way to make the computer generate them in response to a user query. What may distinguish certain individuals is that they were pioneers against sexual discrimination or stereotype, in which case we ought to say that somehow. I can't think of a nice phrase that rolls off the tongue - "pioneering women against academic discrimination in history research" just doesn't cut it. But someone ought to come up with something. The phrase should effectively make it clear that most modern day historians, for whom the struggle against sexual bias was not a defining characteristic, should not be considered for the category. Wnt (talk) 00:41, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Women's corner

Someone has suggested creating a "women's corner," in case anyone here wants to comment. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Editor Retention#Recruiting and retaining women-- WikiProject:Women's Corner. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Affirmative action program...

[Note: concerning Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Possible_affirmative_action_program.
What's currently described in the section would obviously require users to identify themselves as women in order to benefit from it, and I think that in itself is an issue that needs to be considered. Even with protection from reversion as a carrot, users may be unwilling to identify themselves as women given the corresponding uptick in harassment. Is visibility of women on WP a goal - more editors known by their fellow editors and readers to be women? Or just a more equal proportion of women editing, pseudonymously or no? IMO, that's a discussion that should be had before suggesting any large-scale implementation of a solution that requires users to identify their gender. In my mind, other steps that don't require such identification, such as WP and the WP community cracking down harder on harassers and stalkers, would nonetheless benefit female editors. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 03:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Please consider that some women, and I include myself, would be very uncomfortable with a situation in which their edits were "propped up" by some policy that prevented reversion and thus gave their edits unfair advantage over those of men. I would be embarrassed to edit at all under those circumstances. I suppose I could start over with a gender-free username. —Anne Delong (talk) 04:43, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the affirmative action suggestion is not practical because those that harass and/or make WP an uncivil place for female editors appear to also be the type to troll and engage in all sorts of sock-puppetry. So if we had an affirmative action policy for female editors, I honestly think it would be largely misused by a specific sub-group of male editors, pretending to be female editors, to get affirmative action, while disrupting the group this was actually designed to protect. I agree that cracking down on harassers and stalkers seems a better approach, as well as possible discretionary sanctions in areas that tend to attract a lot of trolls who rant irrationally about feminism and/or make blatant sexist comments and who generally make WP an uncivil place for female editors. Perhaps some sort of discretionary sanctions with respect to sexism against female editors/women's issues could be a better solution here. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:05, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention that verification of female editors may also be a problem. Are we gonna make sure they give us a copy of their birth certificate and a photo ID to make sure that they're female before they receive affirmative action? Oh, and what about trans women, will it apply to them? Tutelary (talk) 21:12, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

On the user preferences page, it asks whether an editor would like to be referred to as "She edits wiki pages" or "He edits wiki pages". It does not ask for birth chromosome confirmation, or surgical history. (It also offers the choice "I prefer not to say".) To me, this means Wikipedia intends to treat cis- and trans-women the same. Binksternet (talk) 16:53, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Referring to your terminology, don't forget all the cis-men and trans-men editors who will be treated the same way in being addressed as they prefer; unless they or another editor prefer not to use a gender specific pronoun at all, of course, this being a volunteer organization. :-) The relevant policy being Wikipedia:Pronoun#Tone and ArbCom Chelsea Manning. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

It might not be a bad idea to create more of a newcomers program instead, or have an opt-in function for women editors. While some editors might not like the idea of having their contributions "propped up", for others it would help them feel more comfortable and increase the incentive for contributing. I don't believe that affirmative action will solve the core of Wikipedia's gender troubles, but its not a bad start. I could also see such a policy benefitting non-Western contributors, as I have seen an appalling amount of non-Westerners begging white male editors not to delete their pages because the people or texts they are writing about don't conform to "our" standards of what constitutes a reliable or notable source. Of course, enforcement is also required but I don't think it needs to be one or the other.--femmebot (talk) 21:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The WP:Teahouse came out of discussions about creating some sort of a women's wikiproject. I think this project is still finding it's way, but certain should be a place for women to come for advice about WP:Dispute resolution issues, since in the end that is what it is all about. Learning that system early would help a lot of women. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:32, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

If our project is perceived as hostile or indiscriminately accusatory toward good-faith male and trans- editors here, we will fail ourselves and the larger mission of WP. SPECIFICO talk 21:49, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually there are different issues that people may assume under the title "affirmative action", which move up a scale from recruiting to setting targets to inviting participation to more complicated projects. Regarding whether women choose to identify as women, that really depends on the progress we make in creating a friendlier environment here and dealing with the trolls. The more women there are, speaking up for each other, the easier it gets.

• Actively recruiting women, which the Wikimedia Foundation has committed to through lots of media publicity, Gender Gap at Wikimedia and WikiWomen's Collaborative.

Including having projects like this that help women deal with the various issues women face once they start editing and raising consciousness across the board on how Wikipedia culture discourages women from editing and encouraging the rational males to join females in dealing with the overly combative culture and the minority of guys who go out of their way to give women a hard time.

• Setting targets for numbers of new women (recognizing that not all will choose initially to identify as women). (Added later: Under Sue Gardner, the Foundation already set a target with a specific number by a specific date; don't remember numbers off hand. When I find it in my researches will add it to the main page.)
• Setting up programs that even more actively invite women's participation. One way the wikimedia foundation does this is through setting aside a certain amount of grant money to study the issue.
• More complicated projects. A couple possibilities have been mentioned here which I don't remember off hand. But personally I think we have to work on the above first. Only when there are enough women circulating to make any further action possible is it worth really promoting any further affirmative actions - and by then they might not be needed. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:55, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I feel like one thing that might tie into it is that every single time somebody calls a female editor "he" they get corrected by somebody or other. I dunno, I never care and seldom know what the sex of an editor is, it rarely makes any difference. I don't know, but I would guess that the women who edit must get mighty tired of seeing people leap in the middle of a regular conversation to make sure everyone knows they're really female. I wish we could adopt one of the many schemes to remove sex from English pronouns, or invent a new one (Personally I would be partial to replace he/his/him with xe, xes, xer with xe pronounced like "ge" in "gerente"; but with potential to vary the vowel among several options according to the role of the person named to permit pronouns for multiple people like you can do with "she saw it was his". But I digress...) Wnt (talk) 00:50, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I went through a period of calling everyone s/he if I didn't know their gender. Usually only guys object. Then got lazy (his/her being too long), and "he/his" is shorter and percentage wise more likely. Maybe I should start again. As for alternate words maybe "pers" for person or "indy" for individual. :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:04, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Note: I did have some problems with this section as needing more work and didn't realize that was what this original thread addressed. So just stuck a link at the top of the thread. Anyway, still a work in progress. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:39, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the idea of affirmative action for individual editors is impractical because this would lead to various forms of sock-puppetry with editors who are not female identifying as female to get affirmative action. It would look like female participation had increased when it hadn't. I think the goal of increasing women admins is better idea because by the time someone is considered for admin they are better known on talk pages and such and this could be better verified. Other goals I think we should look into to increase women's participation involve civility rules/policies regarding blatant sexism on talk pages and cracking down on wikihounding and stalking which appears to disproportionately affect female editors. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force&diff=619044452&oldid=619044038

At this diff] I did clean up this section, moving Sue Gardner material to top, removing excess verbiage and tightening up other sections. Scope probably needs more work, but another job for another day. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 23:14, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• This is a joke, right? Women getting "protecting from reversion" is a real proposal? Ignoring verification for the moment , this is the most asinine thing I've ever heard suggested on Wikipedia. Wow. Two kinds of pork (talk) 06:40, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Civility board

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:Administrators' noticeboard#Where and how to request a Civility board, in case anyone wants to join in. There's some talk about the gender gap and civility, particularly in the subsections "If Wikipedia wants more editors" and "A trout for all the sexist pigs who run this site". SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I've been procrastinating about drafting an essay, but I just left a long new section contribution there at this diff that gave me some good material to work with. Interesting times... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 06:15, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A Thought

As a side effect of the discussion at WP:AN, I am about to post an RFC. Some issues really do have to do with systemic gender bias. However, some misunderstandings have to do with differences between regional uses of words. In specific, the word "cunt" apparently is vaguely humorous in Australian English,and maybe in British English. In American English, it is deeply offensive when applied to a person, because it degrades a woman as a sex object. The solution is simple if surprising. It is to specify the use of Standard written English, which is cross-cultural, and is standard across the Anglophone portions of the world, except for trivial differences that are mutually understood and do not affect connotation. The words that are humorous in the Commonwealth and offensive in the United States, like words that are humorous in the United States and offensive in the Commonwealth (e.g., "bloody"), are not standard written English but slang. Specifying the use of standard written English will not be a double standard, and will not be affirmative action. It will just be a reasonable way to avoid misunderstandings. I will be posting an RFC at WT:TPG; see my preliminary comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Of course, the differences also are within national cultural subgroups. I won't even list some of the words that are considered highly offensive if used by people outside a group, as opposed to those inside it who may use it in a friendly way about themselves or others. It's important to say that people should just avoid language which is likely to cause far more trouble than it's worth using. That might even include WP:Dontbeadick, as much fun as that might be to use! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to add 'bitch' to list. The U.S. version of Hell's Kitchen was shown in the U.K. on one of the digital channels and I was shocked by the aggression shown by the men to the women and the constant referring to them as bitches. It is a really extreme word to use and yet it peppered their conversations. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 18:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

It is strange, especially since I am pretty convinced sure most bitches are men. However, imposing a "Standard English" is just a different form of discrimination, which should not be encouraged. I think that in today's interconnected world we should all feel free to use any word from any part of the world we want, mixing and matching freely. So far as I'm concerned there's only one language English. There's no Valley Girl English, Hacker English, Football Preacher English, and the differences between countries seem smaller than that. I don't know why people expect me to learn idiocies like "twerking" but not enjoy the description of a traffic light as a "robot" like the South Africans. A gentle note clarifying harmless intent should be enough, and with Wikilinks that is particularly useful and easy to do. There is nothing intrinsically bad or hostile about the four letters themselves, or the sound, or indeed the organ it most literally refers to; so why should we think it has to be bad when used in conversation? Wnt (talk) 01:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The purpose of an article talk page is to discuss the improvement of the article, which is in Standard written English of the appropriate regional variety. The purpose of a policy talk page is either to discuss improvements to the policy or to ask questions about the policy, and the policy is in standard written English. I see no reason that these comments cannot also be in standard written English. Since all of our editors should know standard written English, under the competency requirement, and cannot be required to know local non-standard English, what is the point to editing the talk pages other than in standard written English? Robert McClenon (talk) 12:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

There may be the perception that a talk page is a conversation, in conversational English. That is a perception, and is not really accurate. It is really a written historical discussion, and can be in language like the article or policy page being discussed. Robert McClenon (talk) 12:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I oppose the idea of a civility board. I've worked on several very difficult articles and in my experience the editors that I have found most difficult are just as nice and cheerful as can be, and as often as not say "please" and "thank you" and sign themselves off with "Cheers". They patiently try and try to explain to me why I am wrong by saying things like, "as I've already tried to explain" and such. Or, for instance, as at the To Kill a Mockingbird article where I pointed out the irony of calling my remarks "immature carping, fussing, griping, grumbling, bickering, protesting, agitating, and finger-wagging" while asking me, "May we please keep this on an unemotional level without unkind personal implications?", the editor responded saying, "When I commented on the tone of your postings and the nature of your words, I strictly limited my characterizations to your public verbal behavior – your behavior alone; at no time have I said anything about you as a person.  Again: I've described your behavior but not you as a person. And then, as usual, signed his post with "As always, smiles and best wishes,". Gandydancer (talk) 13:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Very true, but one has to try writing articles to realise the truth of what you say. So many of those complaining about incivility seem to feel that actually writing content is a menial job for those lesser beings they want to police. Eric Corbett 14:08, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I didn't expect that from you Eric. Even though my contributions are pretty puny compared to what you do here, I am very capable of understanding the "truth" of what I said. Gandydancer (talk) 15:13, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

God, everyone's so touchy around here! I used the word "you" in a generic sense, I wasn't talking about you. Eric Corbett 15:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Well Eric, that's why I was so surprised - I know very well that you are anything but a misogynist. That's one reason that so many women hang out at your page. It was a kneejerk reaction on my part and thinking further I realized what you were saying. I'm a woman, and a "feminist" too, but I am so comfortable with it all that I'm not hypersensitive and don't imagine that innocent remarks are a putdown of women. But my work here is a little different in that I do sometimes feel that some people feel that one must have created a lot of articles to be taken seriously. So, the sensitivity... Gandydancer (talk) 18:59, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I understand, everyone seems to be very touchy recently. But I haven't created all that many articles myself as it happens. Eric Corbett 19:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

There's no doubt that the seemingly polite people can be disruptive and infuriating and even lead to others getting in trouble for losing their tempers with them and getting in trouble for incivility. (It's happened to me a couple times, for sure.) To me it's an absolutely last gasp alternative; I prefer just getting more women in making rational arguments and making it clear that those who are being jerks, whatever their modus operandi, are just being jerks... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Request for diff

Can someone please provide me (on my talk page is fine) with the diff for Eric's most recent use or uses of the "c" word? Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:20, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Corbett is not the person to be going after. He needs to moderate his language, but he's kind of a special case and we all know it. He also likes to just poke at people, equal opportunity offense. I'm not saying he's right, I'm just saying that it ain't worth the drama of going after him because he's an odd duck and is bullied as much as he gets bullied. You want to go after someone, try the real trolls like the one a while back (now blocked, I think) who said something to me like "shut up, woman." Or deal with creepy weirdos like this guy (old case, now done, just as an example) Montanabw^(talk) 23:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I actually searched the "C" word on WP:ANI and there were lots of returns. Enough for a research project in itself! Or maybe an essay for fun, if done from a women's perspective of course, IMHO. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:42, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

For Robert McClenon's benefit, how many of them were from me? Eric Corbett 18:18, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm curious why you would want to find it. I ask, because I get the sense that some think he was blocked for his use of the word. That isn't the case, or at least, the reality is more complicated.. If you want it for some other purpose fine, but I'd like to nip, if no longer in the bud, the urban legend in the making.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:13, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Don't be such a killjoy Montanabw. You know how much pleasure so many seem to derive from going after me. I've begun to think that I'm offering a service to the public really. Eric Corbett 18:12, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Okay then, goodbye.

Well, if he won't leave, and if we're supposed to be observing some interaction ban. (I didn't agree to it, but he says we have one.) I guess I'll say goodbye then. Sorry to have caused the project trouble. Have fun, Scal. Lightbreather (talk) 22:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I will not endorse you leaving but given it's of your own volition, I cannot personally stop you I bid you good. Tutelary (talk) 22:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I am working to address obvious disruption of this project, even if it takes WP:General Sanctions. So please be patient. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 23:22, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I implore you to file this with the arbitration committee and include any diffs or evidence of disruption. However, I don't see any current sanctions which directly deal with this page. (other than MRM but Bbb23 seems adamant about only edits and discussions related to MRM, not anything else) Tutelary (talk) 23:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Carolmooredc I agree that sanctions directly related to this page and to the gender gap in general on Wikipedia seem needed. Bbb23 has been very helpful, but the problem unfortunately seems to go beyond what MRM sanctions can always cover. How do we proceed with this? --BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

If MRM people are causing a problem here, this page is ipso facto covered by the sanctions, I believe, and If a woman (Lightbreather) has left because of it, that's kind of the opposite of a safe space! Pinging Bbb23. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:47, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Why do I always get involved in these things when I've had no sleep? Help me out, SlimVirgin. First, what are "MRM people"? Second, what in particlar is going on here that relates to MRM? Please be specific. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• I haven't followed everything that has happened here, but this is just to appeal to people who may have arrived for reasons other than the stated purpose of the page. It's hard enough starting a project like this, but when there's hostility on the talk page, the very people we want to attract are discouraged by it, and won't join. That makes it immediately self-defeating. Please give it a chance to develop. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Agreed.

FYI. I went to Bbb23's talk page today and he's got two threads going on this topic. He doesn't think Men's rights may apply to everyone. (I guess we'd have to research each non-constructive posting editor.) (Later note: looks like there was an edit conflict between me and Bbb23 so didn't see his message when wrote this.)

Also, today I put postings on the talk page of the main project and on Editor Retention asking for help in dealing with the issue.

Meanwhile, I haven't seen many constructive comments on the threads that are about such topics. That certainly would be evidence an individual was sincerely interested. Or reports of constructive activity to help advance the project. Let us not be discouraged. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 23:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Maybe we should just try to let the heat out of the situation. I hope people will pay attention to the appeal. Bbb23, thanks for arriving. I don't know the details either, except that the same names keep cropping up. But for now, perhaps it's best just to stop posting about it, and maybe things will die down. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

My understanding is the MRM sanctions would probably only cover this page when the content of the disruption relates to men's rights (which it did during the disruption surrounding the name change request because an editor was citing men's rights arguments/scholars to oppose the name change). Call me pessimistic, but I suspect disruptions are likely to recur, and they won't always be related to MRM, which is why I think we should considering going through whatever formal process is needed to get this page/project covered by its own discretionary sanctions. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

It would require a trip to ArbCom, but could perhaps be done as an amendment to an existing provision. Admins do have the right to block for general disruption, so you don't need ArbCom for sanctions, but it's true that admins feel more able to act when there are discretionary sanctions in place. A topic ban can also be imposed by the community, but that would require more drama at AN or AN/I. It might be a good idea to see if people are willing to respond to the request I made above. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully things will just calm down and we can continue with our work. Right now I'm trying to go through all three years of Gender Gap mailing list for best links to articles, other projects, etc. Also finding some interesting past proposals. Just a matter of encouraging people from that list to come over here. I haven't started inviting people yet but have started a data base to keep track of who I or others invite (i.e., they report getting an invite here already or when I get there I find there was one). Yes, it's all that secretarial type work one must do in any project. :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:27, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Behavior guidelines box on top

I want to thank Lightbreather for closing the thread going after me above. I knew it was just a matter of time before those hounding me started here. And I'm obviously not the only women with that problem. (I actually got suspicious and found that thread before Lightbreather posted it.) However, I think both these threads are examples of how women have to watch each other's backs - even the backs of those of us who don't act like perfect little ladies all the time (the horror). Two specific proposals:

• Disruptive threads, including those that look like they originate in some sort of wikihounding, should be quickly closed and archived as not to impede progress. (Also irrelevant ones and those successfully dealt with, no more work needs doing. Tidy-ness good...;-)
• Behavior guidelines on the top of this talk page [later note, similar to what is there now], perhaps like the Wikimedia Foundation Gender Gap email list rules which currently read:

Since this is a sensitive topic, the mailing list has a simple code of conduct. The basic gist is: please be considerate and constructive. That means ...

• No personal attacks
  
• Try to stay on topic and take other things off-list
  
• Try to turn fighting into constructive discussion, or disengage/take it off-list
  
• Help guide discussion toward concrete action
  
• Be aware that using an aggressive or argumentative tone (or even just posting too much) can discourage people from participating.

Thoughts? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:21, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Who gets to decide what is a 'disruptive thread', what is 'offtopic', what is 'fighting', or an 'argumentative tone'. That all seems very vague and as a result, seems very difficult to enforce fairly or even enforce at all. Tutelary (talk) 22:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you can't moderate a Task force page the way you do a mailing list. So maybe there need to be clearer guidelines than what is currently in the box at the top of this talk page. And then we'll just have to use our best judgement and decide what to do about various questionable postings. I think the most important point is, the more women there are asserting that others are being disruptive, whatever the reason, the more likely social pressure alone will work.

Editors with a lot of "Men's Rights" editing already are on warning here. But otherwise, there isn't a wikiquette board any more for repeated annoying behaviors and it's doubtful the current community will endorse a civility board. Still this can be a safe place for us to share problems we are having that pretty clearly are gender-based (often it's guys busting a woman's chops for behavior they'd tolerate or deal with less nastily if it was a guy). On the other hand, since there always will be lurkers looking to harass women in a way a little too polite to call "uncivil", it probably is best done by reporting trips to ANI or any other relevant notice board here and then getting involved in those discussions. It's a long term consciousness raising project with a lot of these guys. late sign: July 28, 2014‎ Carolmooredc

I endorse this. We should use ordinary-course channels to deal with gender bias issues, making clear that these issues relate to observance of WP policy, not special exceptions. Of course, we'll have to be mindful of WP policy on canvassing. SPECIFICO talk 12:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Proposal

So let's think how we can tweak the above and put it into a box at the top of the page. For example a box with a more dramatic/relevant graphic (like the "Be civil" one below) that starts with what's already at the top of the page but details what that means:

Note that the "uncivil messages will be deleted" statement is on several "Be Civil" type templates, so we aren't alone in that statement. Thoughts? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:47, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

You know uncivil text can be redacted by any editor at any time. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:14, 2 August 2014 (UTC).

True. Reminders don't hurt if there's a problem (and some women would feel they need "permission".) But things have calmed down from couple weeks ago, so hopefully what's up there now in the top box will be sufficient. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 11:27, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Let's archive off topic comments now

I really have a problem with Neotarf hatting my proposal on how to deal with the disruptive threads. He also left part of one conversation and replied to it while hatting the rest. I intend to put everything back as was but into archives unless there is some rational reason not to. The record needs to stand as it was, especially for evidentiary purposes should disruption continue. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:21, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Respect - if this is not a value here, is it time to fork a "Women welcome and respected Wikipedia"?

The comments of Powers and John raise the possibility that it is time to fork a "Women welcome and respected Wikipedia". Any suggestions on the practical aspects of making this happen much appreciated.

"Real men treat women with dignity and give them the respect they deserve." -- Prince Harry -- Djembayz (talk) 12:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I was a little confused as to exactly what you are proposing so would love to hear more details. Later: OK, I see from a comment elsewhere it is a rhetorical question, and differences in how one might punctuate it threw me off... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:47, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Eh? It seems that despite all your contributions on Wikipedia, you still do not have a clue how to use talk pages. What's with the "later"? It makes no sense - you should have added that as a subsequent message. This is not a reflection on your gender but rather your complete inability to follow norms, as has been demonstrated on umpteen other noticeboards. - Sitush (talk) 23:58, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

And how is your comment any better? It's even more off topic and less civil to boot. You should probably just retract it as it has nothing to do with anything being discussed here and just comes across as a content-free shot at a fellow editor.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

It is an aside - hence the small font. I never said her message was off-topic and I didn't comment about civility. Hm, is there anything else that you've misunderstood? This person continually abuses process and it needs to stop. Since she seems to be at the heart of this misguided project, she needs to get her act in order. But, yes, I'll consider starting a RfC/U or something if she doesn't. If you'll excuse the wordplay, a standard-bearer with poor standards is no good to anyone. - Sitush (talk) 06:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Unpleasant. This seems to have nothing to do with this WikiProject and everything to do with whatever grudge you're carrying. I don't know why you felt the need to drop in some ad hominem attacks here, but it's disruptive. Whatever your problem, settle it somewhere else.__ E L A Q U E A T E 07:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

"I didn't comment about civility" - No, you were just uncivil. If you feel a tapping on the back of your skull it will be your manners trying to get back in. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 14:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with Sitush having taken a moment to inform you about a site-wide problem of which you were not previously aware. His brief message was direct and constructive, and it spoke to the needs and norms of this Project. The behavior to which he referred (which you can see documented in great detail at Arbcom and Noticeboards over the past 6 years) disrupts orderly and collaborative process. Sitush has been around the block. Please don't be quick to dismiss his considered judgment. SPECIFICO talk 14:10, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Sitush and SPECIFICO. The purpose of this talk page is to discuss issues related to the gender gap on Wikipedia. However, it appears the two of you are here to insult Carolomooredc and drag some grudge from elsewhere over here which seems disruptive. Please consider that if this "site-wide problem" with Carolmooredc needs pointing out by you in order for others to notice, then possibly it's not Carolmooredc who has the problem. Seriously, if she's not collaborative, that will be apparent to others without you guys following her around and telling them. SPECIFICO, please also consider that you've previously been warned by Bbb23 that MRM sanctions may apply to this talk page [[1]]. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Whatever problem you believe applies to my post or Sitush's applies at least equally as much to yours. Take your concerns to user talk pages. SPECIFICO talk 16:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Let me note that I was involved in a year long content dispute with SPECIFICO, and Sitush repeatedly jumped in to tell me his view of my proper behavior and got angry that I didn’t follow to a tee his every directive. Both have been banned from my talk page for harassment. And SPECIFICO was blocked for (only) 48 hours for forwarding an off wiki death wish against me and my family at WP:ANI. (See 1) Separate ANI complaint and 2) block.) Just a couple of many reasons I want to see women having more support against incivility and harassment on Wikipedia. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:26, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Sitush and Specifico, you're not adding anything constructive to this page. Please go away. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 16:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Lightbreather, I've reverted your close of this due to there not being a clear reason for it. Additionally, telling editors to simply 'go away' I think is bordering on WP:BATTLEGROUND wording and behavior. This is a collaborative encyclopedia, isn't it? Tutelary (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

What extraordinary nonsense. Please do not post messages without at least glancing at the context. Johnuniq (talk) 22:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

I never adhered to or implied that what was said was not out of line, but the close message 'Basta!' offered no reason why the discussion should be closed. Tutelary (talk) 22:39, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Reclosing. Whatever prior grudge the editors in question have with Carolmooredc can be better addressed elsewhere. This talk page is to discuss the gender gap. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Where is the LtPowers comment that is being objected to? I see the one by User:John (diff here), "Anyone who feels this site is too rude or too male-dominated has the freedom to leave, or the freedom to fork." (Also, might want to check out the EEOC definition of harassment.) —Neotarf (talk) 04:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

As a side note, the editor who made the "freedom to leave" comment, also made this block against a female editor because he objected to her linking to the term "circle jerk". She had been editing for three years and had a clean block log in spite of editing in the contentious area of women's soccer, but immediately left the project. Some diffs at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Editor Retention/Archive 15#Vanished user llkdfkj4isw4. This could be an interesting sideline for your project group, to track the female editors who leave, and their reasons. —Neotarf (talk) 13:48, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I see that Neotarf removed some comments here and left his own. Some was off topic and some was not. (Perhaps in hatting you got confused. I think something even might have been deleted, but a bit too confusing to figure out at the moment.) I made a proposal below we just archive all the unnecessary material, as it was. Please observe Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#Others.27_comments. Thanks.

Also, making a listing of questionable sanctions like the above has been discussed on another page and needs to be added to the do list. Thanks for that great example. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:25, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

What's the difference between Wikipedia and academia?

The extraordinarily low participation of women in Wikipedia, if it's really true, seems hard to understand vis-a-vis the very successful integration of women into academia over the past decades, to the point where they are a majority and tend to do better. Wikipedia and academia are both online, both involve immature and emotional people mostly drawn from the U.S. and Europe, both have their share of conflict and politics... so why would one go a different way than the other? Wnt (talk) 01:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Check out some of the resources listed here and more at the Wikimedia Foundation Gender Gap list. We're still working on getting our own materials on that topic together. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Wnt, it's a good question. Wikipedia is very unlike academia, in all the ways we see on this page, for example. There are fewer shared ideals on WP. Also, I think lots of women are less willing to accept the "build, destroy" culture when it comes to writing. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Hmmm, I'm not understanding all of that. I'd think WP should have more shared ideals than college, and I don't understand what you mean by "build, destroy" (unless you mean deletionism, but that turns off everybody) Wnt (talk) 01:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Good question, Wnt! I believe that much of the answer lies in the fact that in real life, women in the United States are protected by laws such as the Equal Educational Opportunities Act of 1974. "It prohibits discrimination against faculty, staff, and students, including racial segregation of students, and requires school districts to take action to overcome barriers to students' equal participation,". Does Wikipedia have any equivalent policy requiring administrators to "to take action to overcome barriers to equal participation"? -- Djembayz (talk) 02:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Jayen466 wrote (or words to this effect) that editing WP was like trying to create art in the sand on the beach, with other people just walking through it whenever they felt like it. If you manage to create a decent article, against all the odds, you have to keep on devoting time to maintaining it. It's actually a crazy thing to get involved in, and I think women are less inclined to do it for something that might be completely ephemeral. I have no evidence I can show you for that; it's just a hunch. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:00, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Better watch out, you're reminding me about one of the reasons I use to talk myself out of editing. I mean my own web articles on some of these topics, promoted correctly, could come up higher in returns than wikipedia and reach more people. I guess it's that higher level video game-type addiction. (Or else people are purposely pushing an agenda.) I'm trying to keep it down to an hour a day and with last few days I'm way over budget! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:18, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Statistically, women seem to prefer to have more control over their online environment, and desire other things from it than men. I posted the following elsewhere the other day:

From The Handbook of Language, Gender, and Sexuality:

Recently, women have come to outnumber men in some social media domains. They use social network sites such as Facebook more often and more actively than men (Brenner 2012), and female users predominate on the microblogging site Twitter, the consumer review site Yelp, and the online pinboard Pinterest. More males, in contrast, frequent music-sharing sites such as last.fm, as well as Reddit, a social news website known for its sometimes misogynistic content (HuffPost Women 2012; Williams 2012); contributors to Wikipedia are also overwhelmingly male (Lam et al. 2011). Moreover, the professional social network site LinkedIn has attracted almost twice as many males as females. LinkedIn representatives claim that this is because men are better at professional networking than women, at least in some industries (Berkow 2011), whereas women have traditionally focused on maintaining relationships (Fallows 2005; cf. Tannen 1990). Women's greater concerns about privacy and identity disclosure on social network sites (Fogel and Nehmad 2009) may also predispose them to interact with individuals they already know and trust (Muscanell and Guadagno 2012), which Facebook and other social network site facilitate through features such as "friending."

Crocco, Cramer, and Meier (2008) argue that the move toward web-based computing has had an equalizing effect on gendered technology use. If equality is defined as equal in principle access, women in the United States have caught up with men. At the same time, the web is becoming increasingly specialized by gender. Although many sites are male-dominated, women today have more choices of online environments than they did in the past, including social media sites in which they can exercise a degree of control over who reads and comments on their contributions. As discussed further below, users of these social media sites tend to be less anonymous than in earlier text-based forums.

Summarising, women online place more importance than men on spending time with people congenial to them, and prefer to avoid people who are not. They also like to form more meaningful personal relationships than men.

Wikipedia is quite hostile to all of these concepts. Forming relationships (beyond the Iron Law of Oligarchy that establishes the ruling class) is actively discouraged in some ways (cf. rules against canvassing, meatpuppeting). Anonymity is a paramount value.

And like a waterhole, Wikipedia articles attract species of editors with opposing agendas who have to somehow coexist, despite the tension between them, in order to access the social resource that Wikipedia represents to them.

In short, despite initiatives like edit-a-thons that emphasise the communal aspects of editing by like-minded people acting without the cover of anonymity, the deck is stacked against equal gender participation on Wikipedia. Andreas JN466 09:29, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Speaking only for myself, one thing I've seen is an unwillingness of many (not all) women editors to stand up for one another and fight together. Though I have two or three staunch women wiki-allies that I can usually count on for backup, I frankly get exhausted taking point most of the time. (So do they, I think) In fact, sometimes people I thought were my allies wound up being the first to say, "gee maybe you are both in the wrong" when I was in the right. I've been dragged to ANI more times by women editors than male ones. I win, but the cost is really a drag. (Full disclosure: I've edited for eight years, and still have a clean block log and have never been sanctioned beyond a trout slap). The people who have been the most hateful to the point I've wanted to quit have mostly been women (by about a 2:1 margin) I don't know if it's just me that attracts the crazies or what, but when it comes to women allies, most just turn tail and leave me holding the bag. If I need troops, it's usually the guys who show up. So if there is one way to help women feel more accepted, perhaps it would be a supportive community? Oh wait, wikipedia is just like the real world. Women seldom support each other there either, queen bee syndrome or tall poppy syndrome rages everywhere. :-P Montanabw^(talk) 04:48, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

You sure have been taken to ANI a lot for reasons people can judge for themselves. Though you have avoided any blocks. Perhaps you need to take all participants comments more seriously if it keeps happening. A comparison of what females get blocked for as opposed to what males do not get blocked for definitely is a worthy part of any project research project on differential treatment of women on wikipedia. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:19, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

See? You just proved my point: Women don't support other women, but instead, when a woman stands up for herself against bullies, other women turn on us and tell us how we are to blame! You just did it! You didn't even skim the list or you would note that close to half of those were ones I brought due to the behavior of others. You might also note that I "won" almost every case brought against me and many of them boomeranged back on the accuser. One person (sadly, a woman) brought about three ANIs against me for calling her on her OR and FRINGE nonsense until she was finally blocked. Another individual who tried to get me was busted as the mass sockpuppet ItsLassieTime. If we can be judged by our opponents, then I am the opposite of trolls, bullies and fanatics - and proud of it. Montanabw^(talk) 06:40, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

[Insert:Sorry, I didn't know you were a woman. Your language was a bit ambiguous so I read your whole post as criticism by a guy who was putting down women for not sticking together. After having a lot of other nonsense going on last couple days by known males, you can see why I might be a bit sensitive. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

This is of course one of the tricky things, what do you do when someone you have collaborated with extensively, or who has leapt to your defence does something you disagree with? The way I see the wiki-ideal, you have to simply say "You are, in this case, wrong." Of course it needs to be a collegial discussion. But the idea that we should back each other up in substantive matters because of our gender, nationality or membership of a WikiProject is anathema. We should support each other morally, of course, regardless of theses things. But the key to a good working environment is avoidance of personalities in conflict, and willingness to follow standard procedure on content disputes. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:28, 2 August 2014 (UTC).

Carolmooredc there is research on gender and blocking. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 03:28, 2 August 2014 (UTC).

• Anyone read this? http://iwantedwings.wordpress.com/2014/07/21/a-response-to-women-against-feminism/ Thought it well-written. Montanabw^(talk) 06:40, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Excellent article, thanks for posting it! SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:24, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I helped to bring the 2012 Delhi gang rape to a GA and I am now working on the 2014 Badaun gang rape article. Gandydancer (talk) 14:50, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Here's a new German Wikipedia Diversity Study which of course focuses a lot of gender gap/women. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. Personally, I wouldn't look to Europe for any wisdom on gender-related issues. The study is full of its own weird stuff, e.g. "women are tending the kiddies at night" etc. SPECIFICO talk 13:07, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Relevant discussion on talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias

I made a Proposal to remove non-demographic ideological/etc. listings from Open Tasks you might want to comment on. I did notice that several of the irrelevant categories nevertheless had a large number of women's articles to be created or beefed up (plus a whole nuther women's section I entirely missed!) Moving them to the women's section will make it the biggest, for sure!! But there's a lot of other stuff, much outdated, that just doesn't belong there and no one bothered to remove it that just detracts from the CSB central mission. (In fact the CSB central mission seems to have been lost a bit on the main page as well.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:13, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Departed member explains, in her own words, with DIFFS

I was invited to join this project,[2] took up the invitation,[3] and left the project [4] within a span of less than 48 hours. Another member went to my talk page to "explain" the problem.[5] He apparently misunderstood why I left - which I have corrected, at least in part, there[6] - so I am posting this here just in case anyone else misunderstands.

Yes, I left the project because another editor joined it. The other editor happens to be a man, and I happen to be a woman. But I did not leave the project because the other editor is a man, or because he happens to be a man who edits WP porn pages. Here is what I originally said:

FWIW: I do NOT think this man is here for the reasons he says he is. And it's not because he's a man... it's because he's the man who just posted this stuff on another editor's talk page:[7]. Also, he's a member of the porn project and a regular contributor to porn pages. That's not an attack... one only needs to look at his edit history to see it's just a simple fact.

When a male member of the project asked what this other male editor's editing of porn pages has to do with whether or not he should be a member of the Gender Gap project, I answered:

Taken out of context of discussions re: to civility in the past few days, and of his conduct toward me in the past six days? Nothing. Put into context of those things, being a woman, it's a very uncomfortable position to be in. However, he has apparently pledged not to interact with me, so maybe he'll volunteer to remove his name from the membership list.

To which two other members of the project replied in defense of keeping the new male member. So I decided to leave.

As I said above, I was invited to and joined the project (on 26 July). Two days after joining (28 July), I invited three other women editors who I am acquainted with and respect.[8][9][10] This other, male editor whose intentions I questioned? He joined within 48 hours of my joining,[11] without an invitation that I can see (though it's not an invitation-only project) and within one hour of my invitation to the others.

In addition, he joined this project within two hours of my reporting him to an admin for stalking (IMO).[12]

(About 10 hours later, having received no feedback on my complaint, I decided to simply take it to ANI.[13] That was closed within 15 minutes,[14] so I appealed to another admin, Drmies, on his talk page.[15] Soon after this, the editor in question told Drmies that he had taken me off his watchlist and announced a self-imposed interaction ban on his talk page.[16])

Anyway, soon after, discussion about this was hatted as "Off-topic." (Here is a relevant, related discussion, including the question, "Who decides what is "off-topic"?[17]) I'll just stay away for now because his being there makes me nervous, and the way I was treated there (here) did not make me feel safe or even particularly welcome. And that is what happened, in my words. --Lightbreather (talk) 20:25, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I forgot to add, three days before he came here, he gave an attaboy to a fellow editor who made an uncivil reply to a question I asked at wt:an.[18] I could add more, but I'll just leave it to the stuff from the past week. Lightbreather (talk) 00:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of wikihounding, this is a quote by Lightbreather from a discussion on Drmies Talk page in reference to the Interaction Ban I proposed, "I cannot promise to stay off his, because I check it once a week or so to see if he's talking about me." [19] --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 15:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

When was the last time I went to your talk page and, observing that you deleted something from it - part of a conversation you were not a part of - restored it, complete with judgmental edit summaries? When was the last time that I joined a project within 48 hours of your joining it? I normally avoid interacting with you (a self-imposed interaction ban, if you will) unless you revert my edits for no good reason, or if I discover (as I do from time to time) that you're talking about me. Stop trying to throw this back on me. The only thing I've done wrong is to be harassed, and having the ovaries to complain about it. How much gender-gap editing have you done in the last four days? I've done a fair bit, even though I am no longer a formal member of the group. Lightbreather (talk) 18:00, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I too believe I have been wikihounded here (I can produce copious evidence if necessary). But I think as a group we can rely on support from admins to stop this kind of behavior. If this project is shut down by overt hounding by specific male editors, and people complain enough around Wikipedia, something tells me those details will get around to the media and might make the New York Times given the media's obsession with Wikipedia. (After all, they rely on it for so much of their research.) Definitely take a break til you feel we've got a handle on things, but don't quit forever. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:35, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

That is weird. And creepy. Montanabw^(talk) 06:46, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Yup, a lot of weird creepy things can happen to women on Wikipedia. I got a 1000 death threats via wiki email from one well known sockpuppet/nut in CA before the Foundation finally figured out how to shut him down. (Knock wood.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 11:35, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that these events were gender-related. SPECIFICO talk 13:47, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Specifico, was that reply to me or CM? Lightbreather (talk) 14:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi -- to the narrative in this thread, so all of the above. SPECIFICO talk 15:04, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

OK. Well I started this discussion to present evidence of what I saw, and still see, as harassment - hounding/stalking, to be exact. The details are given. I was delighted to be invited to join this project. I enjoyed the thought of participating so much that I invited other editors whom I trust to join. Then Scal - who was topic-banned for edit warring with me (we both were), who trolled my talk page and accused me of managing it with bad intent, who crowed for another editor who dropped the "c" word into a reply to me in a discussion about civility - joins this project within 48 hours of my joining.

The wikihounding policy says: Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.... The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason.

So, let's drop gender for the moment (though I think in this instance, at this venue, it may very well be a component) - even dropping gender: What is your analysis of the situation? Lightbreather (talk) 15:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Frankly, with all the evidence presented, I think further demands for explanations just becomes disruptive. SPECIFICO already has seen all my complaints against him at talk pages, ANIs, to Admins, at Arbitration, so I need not detail them here. If he and other males reject my or our interpretations, so be it.

Let's focus on getting more women involved and finding ways to deal with specific instances that both address women's needs without allowing guys to come here and disruptive with all their questions and denials and explanations.Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:54, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, Tutelary, GRuban, since I have presented more detailed evidence here (that at least two of you called for in the now hatted "New member" discussion), I would especially appreciate your feedback. Thanks. Lightbreather (talk) 15:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Okay. First, there was a mention of an interaction ban. There has been no interaction ban logged against either Lightbreather or Scalhotrod. There may have been a suggestion that an interaction ban was appropriate. There is no interaction ban. (If two editors were both topic-banned for edit-warring, that is not an interaction ban. Was Scalhotrod topic-banned from gun control?) Second, Lightbreather's statement that she was leaving this project because Scalhotrod was entering seemed either arbitrary or a case of casting aspersions without evidence, which annoyed some of us. If she can present documented evidence that Scalhotrod has been stalking or hounding her, she should do that at WP:AN or WP:ANI, rather than just running from him. Either present the evidence, or leave alone, or depart quietly, without saying that are you leaving because of Scalhotrod. (The timing of his entry to this project is weird, unless he was hounding.) If you are willing to go to WP:ANI or WP:AN with evidence of stalking or hounding, I will support you. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:08, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Is no-one following the diffs - any of them? Scal said he was self-imposing an interaction ban.[20] I didn't agree to it on my end, because he provided no evidence that I was hounding him. There are also diffs above for evidence of his hounding me, which I took to ANI, which was quickly closed by admin Drmies. So I appealed at his talk page. It was during that conversation, when Drmies gave Scal a warning, that Scal proposed an interaction ban. The diffs are all given above. Lightbreather (talk) 16:37, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I did see that Scalhotrod proposed an interaction ban that Lightbreather did not accept. However, then Lightbreather referred to it as if it existed.

Very sad. Personally, I'm in the "better to light a candle than curse the darkness" camp, so I strongly urged (heck, still urge!) you to move on, and do good things, for example, by cooperating with Scalhotrod on a new article. Hashing over who was right, and who was wrong, and just how right, and just how wrong, is very nice, but doesn't build an encyclopedia. Which is what we are all here for, right? In case that has gotten forgotten? This isn't a weird chat room, or a political forum, or a court of justice, you know? Writing an article will at least get that article written, and, strangely enough, will almost certainly get the two of you to be able to work together on other things. Please. Lay down the stick. Whether or not you're right. Go ahead and consider yourself right if you like, it doesn't matter. But please do go write an article; it does matter. --GRuban (talk) 16:15, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I am sure that GRuban means well in suggesting that Lightbreather and Scalhotrod collaborate on an article. I think that is a terrible if well-meant idea. These are two editors who do not like each other. Wikipedia is big enough that they can both make constructive contributions without the precondition of first learning to collaborate with each other. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I am paving a road with good intentions. :-) If you can write articles separately, that works too. But please do go write articles. --GRuban (talk) 19:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I am curious what Scalhotrod intends to work on regarding systemic bias. Kaldari (talk) 21:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

@Kaldari, I make the effort to edit outside of my comfort zone and work on articles where I feel I don't have a distinct personal interest and/or specific knowledge on the subject. As a result the edits tend to be smaller and less comprehensive and it take me longer to research content, but I do what I can nonetheless. I don't remember the first article, but it was for a middle eastern political figure that is female that I first edited several months ago. Another writer and I colaborated on the formatting of the content and what constituted WP:RS. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 15:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

And then there were two...

[21][22] Please pardon the expression, but I can't help but think that the phrase, "Neener, neener, neener" with someone sticking their tongue out and possibly thumbing their nose at me should be associated with this... I guess Porn isn't so bad to LB after all. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 19:27, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I've thought that about you before (the neener-neener thing), but I always kept it to myself, because it seemed like the civil thing to do. Lightbreather (talk) 23:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Porno. Another turn off on Wikipedia to some women. Lightbreather's articles about organizations "Stop Porn Culture" and "National Feminist Anti-Pornography Movement" would be of interest to many women. Feminist wikiproject probably would be more supportive, of course. Pornography addiction is certainly a fascinating article which evokes sympathy for its victims. Anyway, I'll end my somewhat on-topic comments to this rather unnecessary subtopic. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:07, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Separate “Proposals” page

While thinking about archiving and looking at the various proposals that have been made inside many of these threads, it was clear there are a number that are generally agreed upon but need more fleshing out and/or an editor willing to take them on as projects. Why not have a “proposals” subpage that has not overly long (say 2500 word max) sections that:

• detail proposals that are generally approved of at talk, but need further work and/or are too complicated to list under to do and need someone to take them on. (Includes a link to the relevant discussion.)
• flesh out current “to do” list items where necessary.
• Editors cumulatively could add brief suggestions to it in a constructive manner. However, there’d be a note advising editors to post possibly controversial and critical comments on the main talk page (or possibly other editors might move it there?).
• The proposal page itself will have a “Message box” on the top of the main Gender Gap page and also be linked right under the “To do” list caption.

Reading through the above, I put together a list of various proposals, merging thoughts and quotes where relevant:

• Essays on problems women face and solutions to those problems; how women can use all wiki dispute resolution processes; how men and women can work together more successfully in community, etc., considering some concepts in this geekfeminism article; etc.
• Specific new affirmative action proposals (several below probably are in that category).
• Specific policy proposals under Wikipedia:Civility (Civility Board?), Wikipedia:No personal attacks, Wikipedia:Harassment, Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, etc. (Also editors can just propose smaller tweaks at the policy pages and announce them at this talk page if necessary.)
• Research on how policies on neutrality, notability and reliability may systematically disenfranchise women and people of colour's knowledge and experience on this site; offer specific policy proposals. Especially to make Wikipedia policies more inclusionist so overzealous, rule-obsessed editors don’t have an excuse to delete everything they don’t like on gender issues.
• "Plain English" proposal.
• Noticeboard research project: data base of women taking men to or being taken to WP:ANI and Arbitrations and outcomes; compare with males in similar situations; do analysis to see if there is systemic bias vs. women editors that might lead to stricter sanctions than against males in similar situations. And are there things females much more readily are blocked for than males? (Say, swearing.) (big project)
• Research other gender gap projects’ success: what are they doing right? (For example the Indian WikiprojectI read on gender gap email list the Serb women are the most active editors).
• AfD analysis project: to see if there is a pattern of articles about women; are there certain editors chronically involved we might discuss the issue with on their talk page?
• Should efforts to disrupt the project continue, look into the possibility of Community or Arbitration sanctions on women-related articles and behavior issues. (If someone can be blocked for repeatedly calling a transgender a “he” who prefers “she” (see Chelsea Manning arbitration), certainly we might consider blocking someone for throwing around vulgar words and phrases about women that allegedly aren’t direct personal attacks.)
• User:BoboMeowCat wrote: "Creating a sub-page for discussion of specific issues and/or specific concerns that seem related to the gender gap. Sort of discussion forum for specific instances which seem related to the gap." Perhaps she could detail this more fully in a separate post; I'm not sure how different from this talk page, when it is correctly used.

I was actually thinking of something along the lines of a “gender gap noticeboard”. Someplace where editors could raise concerns and get guidance from more experienced editors on issues that impede participation of women on Wikipedia and also a place to raise concerns regarding systemic bias due to the gender gap affecting the content of specific articles.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 15:25, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I got it. Would be delightful, but given that the Wikiquette Assistance board was given the death blow and the Civility Board would be fought tooth and nail, I don't think it's likely. Sometimes good old fashioned nagging and criticism by groups of women goes further than official "boards". And ANI is good for getting the whole community involved when editors really are being WP:Dontbeadick. Double standards still are too frequent there, but the more we complain, the more they gotta listen. It can be fun to be a squeaky wheel! In any case, we have to figure out how to deal with issues that aren't quite ANI here, without invoking the wrath of specific editors. Not naming names or providing diffs might help, just quoting in general terms what is going on. We may have to play it by ear. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:58, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Thoughts? Did I miss anything? Going to archive completed items and off topic threads today; after people have chance to look through the productive discussions will archive them in date order. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 13:05, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Archiving discussion

Note: comment after I archived a couple things and talked about archiving others. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Please do -not- archive anything else, especially for what you deem 'offtopic' others will view as directly on the point. If needed, adjust the automated archival time but please do not manually archive things, especially recent things. Tutelary (talk) 15:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Just noticed this. As I thought I inferred, but should have been more explicity, at this point I only was looking to archive threads that are 90% about frustration, attack, defense. Not more substantive discussions. If not, they only should be hatted by participants because the last hatting removed relevant material, moved things around and made a mess. And then we can move to a one week archiving to get rid of the nonsense. It is a total turn off to the individuals, especially women, we want to get involved. And there are a lot on the Gender Gap email list. If they came here during the last week I'm sure most ran for the hills... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to hear it from somebody other than you and Lightbreather, and then I will back down on this, it's just incredibly frustrating for discussions to be hidden from view or just stopped entirely due to some person having a contention on this. Tutelary (talk) 16:49, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

From what I've noticed, she's only archived off-topic discussions that were not even currently active. Tutelary, perhaps it would help if you gave a dif for something that was archived by Carolmooredc that frustrated you.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

How about first we unhat the conversations that someone else hatted? That in itself made the actual issue unclear... I see lightbreather agrees in the post below. Maybe others will jump in. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:51, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I personally did not think all those conversations needed to be hatted but agreed with the closing of the one discussions that seemed mostly personal attacks and wikihounding. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 17:03, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we should let Carol archive or unarchive as she chooses. Someone needs to look after the page to make sure it stays on-topic, so let's allow her to get on with it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 00:28, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a wise choice for what amounts to a Moderator role. What about one of the Admins here (assuming we go in that direction at all). Personally, I favor liberty and personal freedom. SPECIFICO talk 00:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

As I wrote here you are jumping to conclusions that we want one person to make all the decisions or be the "Moderator". Much better to have several strong voices dealing with disruptive issues. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Abuse of edit summaries

I started to post this on Neotarf's talk page, but cancelled that and came here. Although I am no longer a member of the project, I am following it right now because I have an open discussion here. A previous discussion I was in, along with one or two others (plus part? of one?), were hatted as "offtopic." It caught my attention at the time, but I had since let it go. Then the whole question of what is off topic came up again, so I was stepping through the page's edit history when these caught my eye: [23][24][25][26][27].

I didn't know what WP:DENY is, so I went to look at it. It is an essay about how to treat (ignore) trolls/vandals. Some of Neotarf's edits above seem to be directed toward my posts, some toward CM's. I don't know either editor well enough to have strong feelings about either, but those edits of NT's seem to me good examples of edit summary abuse. I am very surprised and disappointed to see them on this page of all places. Not that this is a civility board, per se, but certainly... Oh, I think y'all should get this.

I would love read some feedback on this, and not just from Neotarf. Here's a direct question, if that helps. Is it a consensus on this project that CM and I are trolls and/or vandals? Lightbreather (talk) 16:26, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I think we are still working our way through what to post and not post here and how to deal with off topic/or worse posts. We have had problems with personal attacks brought here which we weren't quite ready to deal with and which two of us felt we had to deal with. And we've had some stuff hatted in a rather sloppy way, including material that probably should not have been. I've already proposed just putting all such discussions back in their place and archiving them and heard no dissent. At this point I think it's more productive to discuss general guidelines so we more easily deal with these problems in the future. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Don't know if my vote counts, since I'm an outsider looking in, but unhatting what was hatted as WP:DENY seems perfectly reasonable. Those discussions weren't about baking or football. They were very much related to this project. Lightbreather (talk) 16:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I think Neotarf was just trying to help keep the page moving along. Perhaps in future it would be better to close discussions without collapsing them. That would allow them to be read, and would allow the search function to work. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:22, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree that, when an environment or situation is as contentious as this is, hatting an off-topic discussion is a less-than-right answer to a less-than-right post. It appears to be a cover-up. (Hatting of disruptive posts can be disruptive itself.) Archiving an off-topic discussion, which leaves it in plain view so that no one thinks it is being covered up, and so that it is obvious what any after-flaming is about, is a better idea. Please don't hat off-topic posts. Archive them. If they are really completely off-the-point and new, they can be deleted. If they are RD2 or RD3, they can be redacted. These off-topic posts are not candidates for deletion or redaction, and can be archived. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Agree, especially when hatting actually moves comments out of their original context. But what is the feeling about just archiving them more quickly too? And an extended behavior guidelines box on the top of the page like I suggested to at least discourage some people from off topic/attack postings and remind them about the guidelines if they err.

So should we at the very least close the discussions that have gone most off track: New member; Respect - if this is not a value here, is it time to fork a "Women welcome and respected Wikipedia"?; and if Lightbreather feels the discussion is done, Departed member explains, in her own words, with DIFFS; Abuse of edit summaries. ?? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Toolbox better than a drama board

Just a comment that sometimes we have trolls on wikipedia who are simply jerks to everyone and it's not a gender issue. We also have people on-wiki who are utterly clueless about systemic bias - and that includes some women editors. I for one oppose the idea of a civility board because it's a great place for bullies and trolls to go crying to mommy when people (like me) call them on their crap. I also dislike assumptions that "women" are some sort of uniform set of personalities that all dislike conflict or can't dive in there and hold their own in a dogfight. I think articles like WP:BAIT and WP:NPA are better tools to use where there is a problem. I think a useful thing here might be to create a "toolbox" of links to useful guidelines and policies for the most common situations, sort of like a FAQ. (Example: Q: What do I do when an article about a notable woman is put up for AfD? A: Use Policy A, subsection X, Guideline B, subsection Y and Guidline C, subsection Z to establish notability, as was successfully done for Foo Afd and Foobar AfD.) Montanabw^(talk) 18:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Something is occurring that is keeping WP approximately 90% male. To increase retention of women, I honestly think it would helpful if we avoided referring to discussion of issues that drive women editors away as "drama". Whether or not we need a specific board is a valid issue but I think phrases like "crying to mommy" are not particularly helpful if we are serious about reducing the gender gap. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 19:14, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I was not clear: per my comment below, "drama" is all the crap that's all over the place - ANI, etc. The wall of tl;dr tendentious arguments where everyone is talking past each other and no one is listening. The issue that I see driving women away (at least the stuff that tempts me to quit) are, in short, bullying and abuse. The best way to combat that is to not let them win. Pick your battles, but then find allies, hold your ground and dig in. As another example of a way to find tools to help retention, we need to address Guidelines: for example, look at some revisions to WP:CANVASS so that it isn't used as a bludgeon to keep people from responsible organizing - the trolls ally all the time but then are the first to slap at others for coordinating their efforts. Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Montana, the toolbox is a great idea. Re: Bobo's point about language. It's not that people can't hold their own in a fight. It's that they don't want to, so they leave WP rather than risk it (not just women, men too). If someone comes online to write, they don't want to spend that precious free time dealing with idiocy. So it would be good to avoid language that implies weakness or emotional responses. It does seem obvious that women are more likely to be deterred by personal attacks and locker-room stuff, but men are deterred by that atmosphere too. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I think that troll-whacking is needed on wiki and bullying is a huge problem. But, as an example, the spat at the Birds project (which only got on my radar after it was over) was a good example of how the trolls and bullies run in packs, tend to never give up unless they overstep and get blocked, and without strength in numbers, and a tenacity that's greater than theirs, it's tough to prevail. People have to learn how to stick together. I'm personally tired of being The Little Red Hen and Taking Point all the time. Allies are nice to find and working collaboratively with others is very cool. Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

And, basically, it's a big bad world out there. If people don't want to hold their own, they just leave people like me to do twice the work. If people want to reduce the systemic bias and sexism issues on WP, then it's a fight. It's no different than women going to West Point or women becoming programmers and engineers. At first you are excluded, then you are grudgingly admitted, then you are barely tolerated, and, eventually, if you stick together and stand up for one another, you get to a critical mass and it becomes like (for example) Vet school, which was once a male-dominated field but is now overwhelmingly female. Anyone here read or remember this poem by Marge Piercy? Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more about sticking together and critical mass. But the issue of burnout and lack of time is always there because we're volunteers. And so much of what's going on is incredibly childish. It feels horrible to waste a day arguing about these things. Yes, in ten years' time, things will have changed because we all wasted those days (i.e. they weren't wasted), but it's really hard to feel that way when you're in the thick of it. Plus, you make yourself a target in this very publc venue. It's a lot to ask of people. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 23:55, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

If you'll notice what has been added to the main page so far and the listing of proposals, most are related to specific tasks people can accomplish inside and outside the project, including researching the gender gap, something which the Foundation is already funding. In fact most of theses issues already have come up in one way or another at WikiFoundation or its Gender Gap email list.

There is a resources section which includes making HELP pages more user friendly, especially if it's some editing area women have problems with. We shouldn't have to duplicate tit for tat that huge project here, if that's what you mean by Toolbox or FAQ.

It would help to say which of several specific proposals you dislike about the gender gap members giving aid and advice to women who need it on gender gap-related issues.

Finally, if this has been a drama board so far it is because specific individuals have come in either repeatedly pushing an agenda rejected by others or bringing outside issues with editors here. I think either should be considered disruption, not drama. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 22:19, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Carol, you seem to consistently misunderstand everything I say. I've been a feminist for decades, recognize when someone is on your side, for pete's sake! The "drama boards" are places like ANI, Jimbo's talk page, Arbcom, AN, 3O, etc... the places where there are stupid, endless fights that rarely accomplish anything. I didn't even know this project it existed - until invited by Lightbreather. I have occasionally posted at WP Feminism, but not a lot. So I come here, take a glance at things, I make some comments based on my impressions, and all you can do is basically try to shut me down and tell me to follow the rules. I'm sorry if I am somehow unwelcome here, but this reception from you feels no different from much of the rest of wiki other than Queen Bee syndrome seems to be alive and well. Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

As for tasks, the front page of this project is the usual yada, yada, yada welcome to our project page - sure, we all want to write more biographies of women, that's a fine start. May I point out that I created and am lead editor for Kathy Ritvo, Sheila Varian, and Bazy Tankersley, all GA-class articles? I also took the Rosie Napravnik article (which was originally pretty poor quality) to GA. I can do that any time I want. I'm more interested in ending stupid fights like Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Rather than making editing somehow easier (it isn't any harder to learn to edit wiki than, for example, to master some new database software at a job), I think focusing on guidelines and policy is the way to address a bias issue: I think that people here SHOULD band together to fight stupid AfDs which is the biggest threat to article creation. (Note to all, if you haven't already get yourselves autopatrolled rights ASAP and skip the AfC process). Montanabw^(talk) 23:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Again, sorry I didn't realize you were a woman. I thought you were a guy lecturing women on how to behave and what to do, which obviously I might have a problem with, especially here. Being part of the "fighting Irish" I enjoy a good fight, sometimes anyway... However, I know that many other women, and guys, shun a fight.

The problem on Wikipedia is the problem in the world: a certain small number of macho, high testosterone guys form gangs, grab territory and beat the heck out of anyone who doesn't kiss their butts. Some times I feel just like you do about women working together and fighting the power, and obviously I do now or I would not be putting so much energy into this project the last couple weeks.

Other times I agree with some lesbian separatists I know, but I won't detail their views or all hell would break lose.

Note that I just noticed in the last few minutes that there has been quite a battle raging on Jimmy Wales page on just these issues. I was aware of some recent things on ANI from Lightbreather's links. (I'm thinking of listing a few of these separately since they are of interest and more solutions may be offered.) So anyway now I know what you were talking about drama wise.

While I haven't read the article yet, I was glad to see there is one on Task-oriented and relationship-oriented leadership. Both types of strategies are important and should be available as options. Sometimes one type of strategy is more relevant, sometimes another. But excluding either is a recipe for failure. I hope you agree. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:29, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, well watch your own assumptions, eh? (do you remember "CLICK") Or am I not a "real" woman because I'm not all pink ponies and fuzzy, magic rainbow unicorns? Really, one would not think we'd see stereotyping here. We would not want to fall into the thing that drove me nuts about second wave feminism, which was a rigidity about the proper way to view things, with a dogmatic attitude, combined with the older feminists treating young women like dirt because we "late Boomers" weren't quite old enough to have faced tear gas in the 1960s. Please. Montanabw^(talk) 22:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

In our lives, we can reject and/or contest the mainstream view. On WP our mandate is to represent the mainstream, even when we feel it is biased, bigoted, or whatever. We can't reject the mainstream as illegitimate while we're wearing our WP editing hats. SPECIFICO talk 03:23, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you talking about this article? "Government-Funded Study: Why Is Wikipedia Sexist?" What could be more mainstream than the US govt. :-) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:53, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree, Specifico; we don't "represent the mainstream." We observe WP:NPOV, which includes nearly ALL viewpoints, though with WP:DUE and [{WP:UNDUE]] weight. I personally call it "teaching the controversy." In particular, who decides what "mainstream" is? Not us, that would be WP:OR or WP:SYNTH. We create content to increase the world's knowledge, neither to kowtow or to overthrow it. Montanabw^(talk) 22:12, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Well said. I didn't have the energy, so just mentioned a "mainstream" study... Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I did not mean to suggest that WP presents only mainstream viewpoints. However we cannot set an agenda to give undue weight to dissenting viewpoints here. The study about WP being "sexist" does not represent a mainstream view of WP merely because it receives partial funding from a government source. Governmental entities in the USA have funded millions of projects without endorsing the views they express or the results of their research. SPECIFICO talk 02:05, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

One of my projects is to list WP:RS (and not so WP:RS) articles on this topic, perhaps for a separate resources page, to make the point that millions of people have been clued into Wikipedia's "little problem." The purpose of this project is to close the gap. It seems to me arguing with us about whatever you think isn't mainstream about this project isn't very helpful. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

NPOV isn't a synonym for "mainstream". That's an unhelpful way of thinking about it. Things like horoscopes are mainstream but they don't represent the views of better scholarly or scientific research. If all we were doing was reflecting the most common views of any type, then we wouldn't have a requirement to use reliable sources; we'd allow all sources across the board, ranked by popularity over any other consideration. We can set an agenda to give due weight to underrepresented viewpoints from better reliable sources. I think any assumption that everything's currently fine in all articles and that they couldn't be improved with better sources would be a bit naive and pointlessly discouraging at this point, honestly. That sounds like you would assume women currently have too much attention from Wikipedia, which is neither the mainstream or scholarly view. I think a list of better reliable sourced articles is a good project.__ E L A Q U E A T E 03:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello. I was not referring to NPOV but to our mandate to give due weight to views according to their incidence in RS references. In this context, I don't understand what you mean by "underrepresented viewpoints" -- do you mean RS views which WP does not present according to their incidence, or do you mean views which are not sufficiently voiced in RS? SPECIFICO talk 13:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I said underrepresented viewpoints from better reliable sources. That doesn't sound like a call to ignore whether the views are sufficiently found in RS.__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:29, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I understand, but could you please address the question I asked above? Does the "underrepresented" refer to their incidence on WP or in the world literature among RS? Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 14:50, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

We're only working on Wikipedia here, and not issuing demands that scholars produce material in the "world literature". My reference to underrepresented viewpoints from better reliable sources could only be to their secondary expression in Wikipedia discussions or articles. If there's a discussion about the gender gap, and it's filled with anecdotal "I don't think it's a problem" from random editors, then the viewpoints of better reliable sources are arguably underrepresented in the arguments of that discussion, not in the "world literature". Beyond that, if the scholarly literature generally agrees that an imbalance of editors causes undue weight to be systemically given to the concerns and interests of those editors as compared to what is predominantly found in better reliable sources.....well, that's also a situation where reliable sources could be underrepresented compared to their prevalence in the "world literature". This project could help identify articles and topics where the views of reliable sources are not being adequately reflected.__ E L A Q U E A T E 17:24, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Added late: OK, the Post above later explained the issue a bit better. Anyway, the list of copious refs on the whole topic are being worked on :-) I'm lost, what's the topic that mainstream RS are supposed to be commenting on? And again, if it's that there is no such thing as a Gender Gap on Wikipedia, maybe any individuals claiming that should let those of us organizing copious evidence from RS on a resources page just get to it? Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Are there some examples that could be cited to demonstrate that predominant mainstream RS views are being neglected due to a disproportionate number of male editors on WP? SPECIFICO talk 17:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Are there examples that prove the WikiProject should exist, you mean? What a fascinating question. I'm sure that the refs Carol is working on might point out some specific examples, and maybe we can discuss them. You're basically asking if there is any work for the project to look at, as Carol is saying she's gathering some of that material. Maybe you could do some research of your own in the meantime, if you're interested.__ E L A Q U E A T E 18:14, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

It's important to gather any such evidence. Because in general we don't know the gender of our fellow editors, it's not clear to me how we can establish a record of the facts. Moreover, no editor is obliged to work on any particular article or to work on any particular content or references therein. What pattern of facts are we looking for? If I'm able to understand what to research, I will be glad to help out. SPECIFICO talk 18:58, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

There is a report from 2011 on Gender Differences in Wikipedia Editing which is useful. Perhaps the most significant finding is that male editors tend to make an edit followed by revisions to that edit, whereas women tend to make single, larger edits and less revisions (perhaps suggesting they work on the edit elsewhere and add it when it is ready). Note: the report is based on 437 editors (500 minus 63 where the data was unavailable), table 1 is made up of 131 editors who made 1 or 2 edits, table 2 is made up of 124 editors who made 4+ edits, I think the 'missing' 182 editors must be the editors who made 0 edits. So the 'bottom' 75% of editors in table 1 is made up of 131 (editors with 1 or 2 edits) + 182 (editors with 0 edits) which actually = 313 editors. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 01:34, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. Does it speak to the question of whether there are gender-determined differences between editors with respect to content, for example any systematic bias? SPECIFICO talk 02:46, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

No, but it wasn't interviewing the editors, it was just surveying the stats of the first three weeks of new accounts and the authors state: "...it is difficult to observe a consistent pattern, especially because of the relatively small number of revisions in several categories. Only 9% of revisions were made by editors in the bottom 75% of our sample. As a result of the small sample and wide variation, no differences achieved statistical significance among the bottom 75%." Having said that, based on the results they did have they said: "We did not see evidence that men and women are attracted to different types of editing work. Of course, such differences may not exist. Alternatively, users may take time to gravitate towards specific types of work. If this were the case, we might not observe gender differences in an editor's first three weeks of participation. However, the analysis of revision size is another indication of gender differences in editing behavior. Notably, two areas of work in which women made significantly larger revisions involved creative production, synthesis, and reorganization of text." I don't know if anyone kept a list of the user accounts that made up the 500 accounts or it it is possible to do a follow up and see what the retention figures look like. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 11:56, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Hatting vs. closing vs. immediate archiving vs. indexing on subpages

OK, this discussion has now happened on four or five threads, with all sorts of opinions and User:Neotarf just sent me an email about it, so it would help if we all could decide what we want to do about off topic/disruptive postings. How about a sense of the group? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 23:01, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

1. 1 Hat them under a little line so people have to open to read
2. 2 Close them in a blue box so everyone can see
3. 3 Archive them immediately or asap
4. 4 Index discussions on their own specific topic page.

Poll

• I vote #2, soon moving to #3.
  1. 2. #3 is a slight improvement over #1, since it is an invisible cover-up rather than an apparent cover-up that doesn't hide anything from the curious. I take it that by archiving, you mean moving to an archive folder, while #2 is also referred to, loosely, as archiving, because it uses the {{archivetop}} and {{archivebottom}} markers. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:17, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• I vote #4. Best, Jim Jim-Siduri (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
• Depending on the nature of the post and its totally disruptive and non-constructive, I vote #5 Remove, otherwise if its simply off topic or qualifies for WP:NOTAFORUM, then #1. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 17:08, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

5 None of the above. Simply ignore disruptive remarks. SPECIFICO talk 19:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• Per my comment below, I have added and hereby advocate #5, "just say no" don't reply. SPECIFICO talk 19:54, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Discussion

Just disregard my old comment and archive them, it's obvious that you guys are all leaning towards that direction. We aren't a bureaucracy and don't need to be forced to do procedure when it's not necessary, though I do appreciate the thought in trying to get people's opinions for it. Tutelary (talk) 23:06, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

When I originally said to archive them rather than hatting them, I meant to use {{archivetop}} and {{archivebottom}} to box them. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Hi, some suggestions we may want to take into consideration:

Some of us suggest we consider a new approach to Wiki-discussions.

Some of us suggest, if possible, we consider making a novel "always open" Wiki-discussion system where the material/thread is moved to independent non-archived "discussion pages" for that topic and subpages are opened for any new topics that emerge (plus link to subpage on the parent page). This would: 1) keep material open, 2) searchable and 3) allow visitors to effectively find and contribute to the relevant thread, without having to plow through pages of text. Topic titles on the linking index page(s) would need to be clearly written and standardized, such as "Topic: Discussion regarding gender gap", "Topic: Discussion regarding Civility board", "Topic: Discussion regarding the Civility Wikiproject", "Topic: Discussion regarding how to recruit and retain members", "Topic: Discussions not related to WP Civility/off topic" etc.

Some of us suggest the "watch this page" feature should be highlighted to members as a way of keeping track of the topic discussions, now and into the future.

Some of us suggest the feature for making new sub-pages be made very clear to the new member and a civility reminder be placed at the top of every page.

Jim-Siduri (talk) 5:25 pm, Today (UTC−6)

Just watching threads on the same page can be confusing; this sounds worse. Would have to see a working example. Plus I'd like to think we are focusing on problem solving, not discussing ad nauseam, and thus once the problem actually is solved, you archive. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:36, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Which threads? I don't even know what discussion we are discussing. (Unless it's Corbett, in which case they shut that one down fast because otherwise it would just escalate into a months-long rodeo that generates more heat than light like it has the previous 10,000 times he's pissed off someone. ) Montanabw^(talk) 23:47, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

As I wrote above, at the very least close the discussions that have gone most off track: New member; Respect - if this is not a value here, is it time to fork a "Women welcome and respected Wikipedia"?; and if Lightbreather feels the discussion is done, Departed member explains, in her own words, with DIFFS; Abuse of edit summaries. However, I think #s 1-6 have been incorporated into the project or into later threads, like my one on proposals page, so they shouldn't hang around much longer. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• Carol, I think you should go ahead and do what you want. If it were me, I would close off-topic discussions using one of the templates that doesn't collapse them (not only so they're visible now, but also searchable in the archive later). Then after a few days I would move to the archive. If there is something actually abusive or threatening, I would archive it immediately, or just remove it if it's very bad. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:58, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Will wait til see how things shake out. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• Comment Disruptive comments or threads should simply be ignored. They will then die out or be confined in a voluntary and neutral manner. All the proposals here are based on the premise that one wise editor passes judgment, declares a thread to be disruptive, and then squelches it. Of course Admins may from time to time do that, but for editors in general to do that is only likely to prolong the disruption and contentious debate. SPECIFICO talk 18:01, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

This is not your average article or project page. There definitely may be individuals out to disrupt the project or individual members; others may unintentionally disrupt through pushing a questionable agenda or other means. A project can get bogged down for weeks and months with such nonsense, making it difficult to find and deal with project-oriented threads. This is happening here already. And there are Gender Gap email lists members, Wiki Foundation people, admins, academics, women activists and journalists keeping an eye on what's happening here. So why give them junk that turns them off or gives them something to complain about or "expose" to the general public? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:10, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Why? To ensure we don't let one person's opinion determine what is disruptive and encourage peremptory action to close a thread. SPECIFICO talk 20:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

No one is saying one person's opinion decides what gets quickly hatted/closed/archived. In fact the original hatting was done by one person. Others objected. There was discussion and closing the three oldest seemed sensible. More than one person would be involved in such decisions. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

In that case, it sounds as if a second-order contentious discussion will erupt, so that there is still at least one disruptive thread and possibly two. They could multiply like bunnyrabbits. I really think that the spirit of WP is to allow open discussion and ultimately to hold editors accountable to the entire Community, per due process, for their actions. SPECIFICO talk 21:01, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Automatic archiving

Carol, ought we to add the bot for automatic archiving? We can still maintain subject archives, but we would also have the automatic chronological one. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:45, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind if I move this here. I'm all for it and was thinking of adding it but just didn't have energy to figure out how. I'd say 30 days would be good. If something desperate needs to be brought back, it can be. However, I do think we need to get rid of disruptive comments quickly since there is no doubt some people will be out to disrupt the project; others may do it unintentionally. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:04, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

We can have 30-day automatic archiving, and we can change that if there are a lot of posts. We can change it on a daily basis if need be during busy periods. We can also archive single threads manually or using "one-click archiving". I don't know whether you have that enabled. And we can separate categorization threads if you want to maintain that separate subject archive. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:16, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Maybe more one more "task" vs. one more "relationship" type archives. Something to think about. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I've set up the basic bot archiving, and one topic archive, as it was before (categories). We can then copy threads into separate subject archives if we want to, though it's better to let all the threads be archived in the chronological ones too; if you only have threads in subject archives, it gets hard to find things after a while. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Great. Though the gray box does seem to take up a lot of space. What is the advantage? More a Wikiproject box?

Of course, it takes up less if we add some of the suggested language from the box below it or even my "behavior guidelines box".Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:48, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

If you mean lots of space in edit mode, I'm going to move it to its own template page, so then it will just be a link here. Or did you mean lots of space in read mode? The reason it's taking so long is I'm trying to work out how to include the archive and search box (with the topic archive) inside the gray box. There is a way to do it, but I haven't got there yet. When that's done we can remove the separate archive box. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:57, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I've moved the divbox to its own template, which means there is less clutter at the top. I still can't see how to add the subject-archive link to the divbox, so for now we have two boxes that refer to archives. I've seen other projects incorporate subject-archive links, so I'll try to figure it out. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:39, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

By the way, Carol, I meant to say earlier that you've done a great job with the task force page, with the boxes across the top. It looks really good. Thank you! SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually The Vintage Feminist did the boxes across the top of main page. [28] Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 01:45, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

In that case, thank you, The Vintage Feminist! SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:47, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Of course as I was thinking about how to fit in a Resources or Proposals page, I looked at the HTML and realized what is there now just automatically turns existing page sections into headers. What we'll need to do is create a separate header page linked by html. Like Wikipedia:WikiProject_Israel/header or Wikipedia:WikiProject_Palestine/Tabs to name first two with those formats that came to mind. They have different color schemes and shapes of boxes; I'm sure there are lots more options. We could just look through a few to find the one with color and shape we like the best and substitute our own sections. Of course, the html can just be at the top of the page, like at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Feminism. But it can be more confusing to new users and risks getting disrupted more easily. But something to sleep on for a few days. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 07:40, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

I've been looking at what bots might be able to take some of the load and found the popular pages bot, I requested it a few weeks ago, it takes about a month from the request to the page being set up, but it is here now so I've put a link in the navigation box. Since we are talking automatic things & bots I noticed that Hooters is listed as being of 'top importance' to the gender studies wikiproject. When I looked at the edit history to find out when it had been put there in 2007, a couple of weeks after the article appeared, by MadmanBot. I don't even think Hooters should be in the GS Wikiproject at all, let alone have it as being of 'top importance'. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 11:50, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

The article is full of gender equality employment issues, and I would have thought the premise of the chain would make it very relevant to gender studies. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:01, 3 August 2014 (UTC).

In the project as a poster child for sexism, but in the grand scope of women's issues, low importance. Montanabw^(talk) 16:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little confused about the topic of the last three postings. So Vintage Feminist was not talking about archiving? Is she talking about bots that collect list of articles and put them on the main page? Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:06, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I was talking about any bot that would assist in the workload such as these. I put in a request for one which means that gender studies now has a list of popular pages which is generated automatically each month. I had a look at the list it produced and was surprised to see Hooters, not only is it listed under gender studies but it is of "top importance". I went looking to see who had assessed it and realized it had been assessed by a bot in the early days of the project. For me it's a bit like saying that an ashtray is of "top importance" in the study of carcinogens. --The Vintage Feminist (talk) 00:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I got it. I don't know if this project will have a lot of articles under it, besides maybe essays and very topic specific ones. What more did you have in mind? And we'd need a template to stick on the articles, right? Will the bot's box automatically be stuck someplace on main task force page or can we choose where? I know the main page still has formatting and other issues but I'm still slugging through old gender gap emails and finding a lot of really good stuff which hopefully will end the "prove it" challenges. (sigh) Plus dealing with various small wiki fires here and there, not to mention Life! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 04:23, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Example (AfDs)

At AfD right now: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Suzanne Marie Olsson. Montanabw^(talk) 23:38, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Is this really an example of SB? The subject is an editor; there are multiple previously deleted versions of the article; contributors to the current article want it deleted. At the very least it's not a typical gender gap issue. – SJ + 01:51, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Just alerting the wikiproject, not debating the topic. There is a problem that articles about women in general tend to be held to a higher standard of notabiity than many about men (my classic example is cricket players in Sri Lanka, who appear to get an article if they play one season of professional ball). This is an article about a woman, it's up for AfD. Members here can assess the situation on its own merits. If the topic is not notable, people here have the ability to discern that and recommend deletion. I'm just posting. Montanabw^(talk) 04:18, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

More examples (not listing all articles on women, only a sampling). I am taking no position on whether these articles pass WP:GNG, people can make up their own minds. I voted on one, but not the rest. Montanabw^(talk) 04:33, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mary Deese
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mary K. Greer
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/María Benítez
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sister Ernestine Declercq
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susan Gilbert (2nd nomination)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sara Powell
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dr. Anna Frisch
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elinor Gadon
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Elizabeth Morgan (actress)
• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ellenor Bland

Found all but one deserved articles and said so, even if I did have to pull out the systemic bias card a couple times. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:46, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I just can't see where a vote to Keep with comments such as "Actors like this can become very notable over night so why make someone go through the work of having to rewrite it? I'm sure we can find lots of white male actors with far less impressive resumes and maybe one more ref who are kept without question. Let's not practice systemic bias here, please." are going to help our female editors seem intelligent and fair-minded. As a matter of fact, that actor had no refs other than a movie database link. How do you know if the article contained libelous material? Let's not attempt to improve the image of women editors by insisting that if the other editors on a page are not voting to keep a particular female bio they must be biased. Carol, that is no joke to say you had "to pull out the systemic bias card a couple times". You did exactly that and it is not in the best interest of Wikipedia. Gandydancer (talk) 20:26, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually it was a naughty joke. As an inclusionist in general I've always used the "what if" argument and lots of other less than perfect ones. I did take a quick look at the articles just in case they looked squirrly, but you are right about BLP problems. Will be more careful. Actually after today's round decided I should make myself a little "data base" of good arguments so I don't get lazy and rely on subprime ones. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm torn about creating BLPs nowadays. We do need more women – I've lost count of the number of times I link an academic's name, only to find the men are blue and the women red. On the other hand, we don't know whether the subjects will welcome them; having a BLP isn't necessarily a blessing. Writing to each subject to ask whether they mind is the best thing, but it's extra work. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 20:35, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Good point. I was happy to see mine go even though it probably had more mainstream RS than all but two of the ones I voted for. I guess I'm just a "more the merrier" type of person. But will also keep that in mind. (The most obvious example is the British woman politician best know for an allegedly racist remark, which was well documented; though by now I should know in such matters to look at the sources more carefully for RS and accuracy.) Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 20:47, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised by the fight to Keep Anna Frisch, otherwise I'm trying to provide reasons for Keeping all of them. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (Talk) 21:57, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Under Article improvement on main page I add links to two more "articles alerts" pages (which often include AfD alerts) and the AfD page for those who want to keep on top of article issues. In addition to any listings here.

OOPs, forgot to mention in edit summary I remove the "infobox" info; they are for both sexes and may be outdated. Feel free to add as separate section if it's more important than I realized. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 03:20, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

I am surprised by the discussion about whether notable women would mind an article on Wikipedia. I was unaware that this was a criteria for adding an article. Am I missing something? —Anne Delong (talk) 17:00, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Civility, sexism, gender gap discussion at Jimbo Wales talk page

A few good proposals ("light") in the middle of the "heat" on the talk page that we might look at in the future. Editors who care about closing the gender gap might want to read some of the better sub-threads and even join in. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:08, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

WP article on Amanda Filipacchi

The section regarding Amanda Filipacchi's op-ed on sexism was recently tagged as containing excessive quotes. I’m not actually convinced the section contains excessive quotes, as I communicated on the talk page, but it could probably be improved and perhaps the improvement would alleviate need for quotes to explain issue. This section is in regards to the controversy regarding Women's categories which has been discussed by task force so I thought task force members might be interested and knowledgeable enough to review it for potential improvements. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 22:44, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Relevant workshops at Wikimania 2014

Wikimania 2014 in London has five workshops related to the gender gap during the August 8-10 programme. Not too late to sign up!

• Creative_Ways_to_Alienate_Women_Online:_A_How-to_Guide_for_Wikipedians
• Systemic Bias Workshop Development
• Internet Skills and the Gender gap
• Diversity Workshop: Gender gap strategy into action
• Gender and Beyond: Building diversity in the digital space
• And if you are a woman, sign up for the Wikiwomen's lunch
  

I went in 2012 and it was a lot of fun. Quick, get those passports out! Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 02:34, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

History, philosophy and analysis of the "gender gap" issue

Would it be acceptable for some of us to create a list of articles here that pertain to the history, philosophy and analysis of the "gender gap" issue? Best, Jim

For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protofeminism — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim-Siduri (talk • contribs) 16:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

There are one or two relevant links in Wikipedia articles about that Wikipedia gender gap and there is a Gender gap disambiguation I just added this Task force to :-) However, anything that doesn't specifically mention "gender gap" just gets into a lot of off-topic theories on women/feminism/etc. that are better dealt with elsewhere. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 11:19, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Carol, thank you for uniting this movement. Your dedication, passion and hard work is very much appreciated. Some of us will find other ways to affect the necessary change on Wikipedia. Jim-Siduri (talk) 22:33, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Gender bias on Wikipedia article

The article on Gender bias on Wikipedia was recently tagged as needing attn due to non-NPOV. Points of contention appear to be proper wording to neutrally present the National Science Foundation study on gender bias on WP and whether or not to include men’s right’s organization assertions regarding sexism against men on WP.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

WP:RSN on Transadvocate use in BLP

Regarding article Radical feminism and comments about women. Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Transadvocate_use_in_BLP.2C_etc. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

You've went to multiple different Wikiprojects and other pages for this, and you still haven't demonstrated what BLP it's going to be used for. Tutelary (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I mentioned it here and Wikiproject feminism and the article talk page and upon request gave more details at WP:RSN which anyone can clearly read. BLP is not the only issue of course. A poor source is not used for anything on Wikipedia. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 16:10, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

This is starting to look like WP:FORUMSHOPPING because you don't like the discussion you had about a particular source. You understand that this type of proposal could lead to the invalidation of all feminist-identified sources from being used on any topic to do with women, right? 'Off our backs is used as a citation in many Wikipedia articles, and what you're pushing for would eliminate it as well. Sources with some identified bias are sometimes used for some citations as long as they are considered reliable in other ways, in context. I have to say that I think using the Countering systemic bias/Gender gap task force to find support for removing a source about trans women to be deeply problematic. This effort seems like it's promoting the gender gap, not working to reduce it. __ E L A Q U E A T E 16:39, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

The relevant policy here is WP:CANVASS and I'm well within policy. Forum shopping is bringing a whole big issue thread to a whole nuther noticeboard, talk page etc., which I have not done. It can be ok to do so (or to leave a note about another discussion at a relevant board) if there is little or no response in one place or if it's a BLP issue. In fact, you just reminded me re the latter point. I should leave a note for people to join the discussion there if they chose. Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie)

Posting links to project-related discussions on WikiProjects is pretty standard practices afaik. Don't see a WP:CANVASS issue here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 17:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

This is clearly forum shopping. SPECIFICO talk 03:12, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO Read FORUMSHOPPING again. It's for when issues are posted on multiple forums, not when you notify multiple groups neutrally about an ongoing discussion and providing a link to it. See WP:CANVASS. It is common practice to alert relevant projects about AfD, CfD, RfC, and such. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:29, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Hello, @EvergreenFir:, if one notifies interested edtiors or groups of editors neutrally at the time of posting a thread, that falls within policy. Policy is not intended to grant editors the option to post on a designated policy Noticeboard, wait and see which way the wind blows, and then if it's not favoring OP's view to post on a Noticeboard regarding a different policy issue. That is forumshopping, and it's not constructive. SPECIFICO talk 14:29, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

SPECIFICO, Carol added this notice before anyone replied to the RSN. There were not winds blowing. You are assuming bad faith without looking at the details. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 15:59, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

No, I have not commented on anybody's motivations or intentions. I am making objective comments about policy and stating my opinion that policy was violated in this case. I have not spoken as to whether the action was done with knowledge, premeditation, good faith, or error. Anyway, your response doesn't address the issue at hand, which is not me. Thanks. SPECIFICO talk 16:48, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I should say that at the time, I wasn't talking about the notifications to related wikiprojects, some of which were perfectly appropriate. I was looking at the initiation of an RS noticeboard discussion and a separate discussion to change the relevant rule in Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources at the same time. As far as this talk page goes, there are two issues:

1) In order to get rid of one trans advocacy source she doesn't like, Carolmooredc was suggesting to change the guideline to consider all groups that involve any advocacy as questionable sources. This is singularly unhelpful with regard to this project. It would mean that groups that admitted any advocacy of anything like Feminism (or any groups that didn't mention Feminism but just said they advocated for women in any way) would be considered questionable whether they had a good reputation for accuracy or not. That kind of recommendation is directly counter to anything that would be helpful to this project.

2) A second issue is why this project was notified of the discussion. I can't see an argument that removing access to this website has anything to do with reducing the gender gap or its underlying causes. I could see an argument that removing sources that involve trans women could be a symptom of systemic bias against women, but Carolemooredc was the one suggesting that removal so I don't understand her motivations here. It all seems regressive to the project's implied aims.

Any work that actually reduces any project-wide undue weight caused by the gender gap and systemic bias is welcome, whoever helps with that. I'm not down with work that looks like it would only increase a particular systemic bias, or systemic bias in general. __ E L A Q U E A T E 16:51, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

If anyone thinks there has been forum shopping or cavassing, take it to WP:ANI. (Last year at WP:ANI an admin held that SPECIFICO posting to 10 Wikiprojects, 4 or 5 of them irrelevant, was merely "excessive".

Otherwise, this is just disruptive. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 17:08, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I checked the link to that old ANI. I see that, contrary to what you state here, no Admin called 4 or 5 of my notifications to Project pages, not Noticeboards "irrelevant." As a matter of fact, for anyone who cares to review the ANI link, it actually provides useful context regarding Carolmooredc's behavior with respect to this policy. For my part, I have nothing further to say about it on this page. SPECIFICO talk 17:29, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have clarified "(4 or 5 of them which I considered irrelevant)". (Or as another editor wrote: "The requirement is that the projects be directly related to the topic. In the case at hand, such a relation is tenuous indeed, and raising a concern is reasonable." Followed by other editors discussing which were and were not "relevant" (without actually using that word.)Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 18:42, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

My concerns about this aren't ANI-worthy, but the options aren't "ANI or shut up", either. (My concerns weren't about how many notifications about RSN you made, either. They were about the separate discussions and your involvement of this project.) No one has explained what discouraging use of the Transadvocate has to do with this project. You're not obliged to answer my concerns (and you haven't tried), but in the future this project should focus on addressing systemic bias, not whatever was going on here.__ E L A Q U E A T E 18:50, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

For note, Carol also posted to WP:XX which is more relevant, and I posted to WP:LGBT a day or two ago as it's relevant there. I was going to suggest that this be taken to ANI if there's truly a problem. Frankly I don't see one and I'm the one advocating for the use of TransAdvocate as a source. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:30, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I was never concerned about the fact there were notifications about the RSN discussion beyond asking what made it relevant to this one. I was more concerned that it wasn't the only discussion started by Carolmooredc around the same time about this issue. If her suggestion in the second, non-RSN discussion had been taken up, we would have faced a lot of new challenges to all sources that could be argued were advocating for women. It's the kind of suggestion to avoid if we want to find ways to counter systemic bias and I'm happy that it doesn't look like it's being taken up. So I don't see a situation to be resolved at this point, but I'm also hoping we don't see that advocating in those directions is a particularly useful strategy for this project in the future.__ E L A Q U E A T E 22:45, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

A) Be more specific about what other discussions besides on the talk page of the article were started? and B) if there was a problem why not bring it to my talk page where things can be clarified rather than bringing it here and causing a long disruptive thread? If women are going to be attacked every time they post here, this project might as well close itself down now. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:17, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

A) I see no one attacking anyone else, and B) it reasons to follow if there are no attacks, there no attacks against women or men. Your last sentence is polluting the well a bit.Two kinds of pork (talk) 15:01, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

If you look at the history of this page there are problems with wikihounding and casting aspersions against members of the project. Since User:Elqueate chose to complain here instead of the more relevant WP:RSN posting or my talk page, it was easy to assume more of the same.

Looking more closely above, I assume User:Elaqueate was complaining about my general complaint at WP:RS guideline talk page that conflict of interest and advocacy needs to be mentioned more explicitly so one doesn't have such a hard time convincing people it's relevant. This was not about changing policy but clarifying guidelines detailing existing policy. I did it since it was on my mind and that's when one tends to act.

From now on perhaps we should just ask others to move inherently disruptive comments like that to the relevant talk page rather than allowing the disruption, even if it's merely accidental. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 23:05, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

That is a personal attack on Elqueate. I believe her concern was justified and appropriately articulated. SPECIFICO talk 00:18, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Describing my concern as "inherently disruptive" is not helpful. And if you're admitting you didn't even really read them at first, it's hard to take that judgement seriously. My comments were specific to "systemic bias" concerns, which is why I placed them here, so they were arguably more relevant to this page than your discussion about removing a source you didn't like. I didn't post at the other notifications because I had no objections to those, just, why is that discussion specifically relevant to this problem? Is too much trans advocacy increasing the gender gap? It seems unlikely. (I had asked a number of times what removing a trans-related source had to do with this project, without any response.) I had moved on many comments ago, but my comments kept being misframed as opposition to neutral discussion notices (that I have made myself quite often). There was no need to go from that to "take it to ANI" or insinuating that talking about focussing this project on systemic bias concerns is disruptive. If you don't want to discuss those concerns, then go on to more constructive things, but please don't frame a specific voiced concern as an attack.__ E L A Q U E A T E 00:52, 12 August 2014 (UTC).

This is a belated rationale. The only relevant discussion now is how to deal with threads like this. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:10, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

You could consider not starting them in the first place if you don't want to address project-specific concerns they raise.__ E L A Q U E A T E 14:21, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

But I've already advised moving on. You are entitled to your own opinion of what "the only relevant discussion" is. I was one of the first editors here to ask people to not bring outside squabbles that have little to nothing to do with the project. I would apply that to you as well, if you can't justify why a discussion you're bringing to the project has relevance to the project, then your addition was problematic even if it was, in your words, "merely accidental". __ E L A Q U E A T E 14:33, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

If this was your real concern you should have asked it. My leaving a message about "why" at the time would have brought accusations of "non-nuetral posting." In short, I don't like the use of non-RS sources to trash women on wikipedia (be it in full biographies or in mere mentions, per WP:BLP). I think that's a concern of this group. Otherwise the reliable source discussion belongs at either Radical feminism talk page or WP:RSN, not here. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 15:15, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

If this was your real concern you should have asked it. I'll assume that's sarcasm offered in good faith. I'm happy at this point to leave it to others to decide how many times I did.__ E L A Q U E A T E 16:13, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I've disputed closure of this section due to the fact that Pork both participated in the discussion at RSN and cannot reasonably and unbiased-ly close this discussion. However, I will not contest a closure based on no decision by the closer; where it's simple closed without comment/minor comment indicating no consensus of sorts. Tutelary (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Which section, here on this page or WP:RSN? If that one, please bring the issue there. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 21:05, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

On this talk page. Tutelary (talk) 21:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

I took the bold action of closing this section; The sniping is getting out of hand and serving no further purpose. My assessment of the thread at RSN that TA is not a RS is of course, my opinion. An un-involved party would likely (also IMO) come to the same conclusion. I've no problem with you un-doing my closure. I understand this is an emotionally charged topic area.Two kinds of pork (talk) 22:27, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

Study of "WP Gender gap coverage in media and blogs"

I found a summary of this interesting article at Wikimedia blog: “(Re)triggering Backlash: Responses to News About Wikipedia’s Gender Gap”. Journal of Communication Inquiry 37 (4): 284. doi:10.1177/0196859913505618 2013.

Anyone have access and want to improve summary below? Last sentence seems a bit ambiguous. "Gender gap coverage in media and blogs" section summary of article:

"studies how Wikipedia’s gender gap concern has been treated in the news, based on a qualitative analysis of 42 articles from US news media and blogs, and 1,336 comments from online readers. The authors argue that this discussion can be seen as an example of a “broader backlash against women, and particularly feminism” in the U.S. news media and blogs. Reading the article, it appears that the views of this gap in the media represent the variety of views about feminism, from the most concerned and documented to the most stupid and misogynist. However, the synthesis of these opinions and the discussions the authors had with some leaders at Wikipedia/Wikimedia Foundation (among them Sue Gardner) let them argue that this problem has not yet been properly addressed, because of its complexity, but also because of a clear political decision from the management of the project to tackle it."

Thanks. Carolmooredc (Talkie-Talkie) 14:08, 12 August 2014 (UTC)