Talk:Murder of Annie Le

Creation

Felt that given the likelihood that she was murdered, she warranted a page in Wikipedia. Began a rudimentary article on the subject. GG The Fly (talk) 03:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

This should probably be moved to something like Disappearance of Annie Le since the artcile documents a crime, and is not actually a biography of the person. ArcAngel (talk) 03:48, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

When she's confirmed dead, I agree that we should move it to Murder of Annie Le GG The Fly (talk) 04:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, Miss Le's death has been confirmed, and the remains have been identified as hers. See Suspect Eyed in Yale Killing, Report Says. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 14 September 2009)

Tense

Will keep in the present tense until remains are identified. GG The Fly (talk) 03:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, Miss Le's death has been confirmed, and the remains have been identified as hers. See Suspect Eyed in Yale Killing, Report Says. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 14 September 2009)

University alumni

Are you a Yale Alumni if you die before graduating? Just curious. GG The Fly (talk) 23:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes. See alumnus. It states: An alumnus (pl. alumni) according to the American Heritage Dictionary is "a graduate or former student of a school, college, or university." In addition, an alumna (pl. alumnae) is "a female graduate or former student of a school, college, or university." Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 15 September 2009)

Useful

Was helpful in getting a background and summary on this current event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.58.215.102 (talk) 15:18, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

The question of deletion of the article was discussed at WP:Articles for deletion/Annie Le. The result was to keep the article. Please do not add further to any discussion of article deletion on this talk page.

Let's leave this page up for now

I considered creating a page on Annie Le the other day. I'm seeing a pattern among a number of young women of 24 years old being murdered so, for now, let's leave the page up as it isn't hurting anything right now.--MurderWatcher1 (talk) 18:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I personally agree ... but see this: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Annie Le. Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro, 14 September 2009)

This article must not be deleted. Annie Le has Supermodel looks and murder of supermodels is really climactic and important. (unsigned entry)

I think they need a trivia tag for such articles. That's how it will be regarded in a few months, even though it is all over the newspapers these days. However, it should remain in Wikipedia to be linked from a higher level article about bias and sensationalism in MSM reporting. The problem is that topic would require higher level statistics, and that work can't be done as original work within Wikipedia.Shanen (talk) 04:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Recommend deleting the page

In deference to the family of Annie Le and families of other murder victims, I recommend that the page be deleted. Until you've had a loved one murdered you cannot know the pain that comes to mind each time you read of another murder. You cannot know how invasive the news media is on your grief. Wikipedia needs to set a policy for reporting these kinds of events. Contrary to the prior opinion the page is hurting the family and creating more grief. I know I have been there. 146.6.200.54 (talk) 05:52, 15 September 2009 (UTC) jedishrfu

If that is how you feel, you would also feel that the press should not report on these murders. Yes, the press is overly agressive, but we still need them. Had this been a missing person case, the press would be invaluable. In addition, the people need to know of these types of crimes to stay safe. Nothing knocks safety home like a murder. 76.112.192.64 (talk) 11:48, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

C'mon, man. Wikipedia's job is to provide information. If you have seen the page on the 2009 Collier Township shooting (I live there, and I knew the son of one of the victims), the page was created just after the shooting reached national attention. Did it get deleted? No! Besides, why would the family be on Wikipedia while they're grieving? --Greatrobo76 (talk) 19:06, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear about the shooting. How did it affect you? Did you become ill? Did you know your friends mother? How is your friend handling the aftermath? Is he angry? I'm willing to bet that he was deeply affected so much so that he is hiding most of the anger from you. You learn to hide it because your friends and coworkers will avoid you once you show it. You lose many friends. News organizations routinely place the victim's picture together with the killers like they were friends inviting people to ask why did this happen. The basic problem is that society in its insensitive curiosity into criminal events do not allow the families of murder victims to grieve, to heal or to find peace. Take care of your friend, stay as his friend, he has a long road to travel. Please Wikipedians follow your policies, to do right thing and remove this article. Jedishrfu (talk) 04:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC) jedishrfu

According to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report for 2008, there were 14,180 murders in the USA in 2008. Now, can you imagine if Wikipedia entries were posted for just 1 percent of these. Even if it is allowed under the premise that Wikipedia is intended to be a "storehouse of facts and a systematic survey of all departments of knowledge" by expert authorities, what are to be the criteria for selecting the X percent of murders to be published? Is there 'really' any difference between the murder of a Yale graduate student and the murder of a vagabond? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kdarwish (talk • contribs) 08:07, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Most of them don't get 8,000+ news articles (source: [1] (time sensitive; Google News as of 2009/09/16) ). This is a major news event in the English speaking world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.64.21.117 (talk) 15:23, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be a rule that a page like this cannot be created prior to the family's approval. People heal over time and when or if they're ready that would be the best time anyway. Robtj966 (talk) 19:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Page should be deleted. Invasion of privacy.-J0hn

I don't see how it's an invasion of privacy if the article relies on public sources, as it should. I also don't see why the family should have any veto (or censorship) power over Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia's job is to provide information. As long as the information is factual there is no reason to contest the article. This article is also much more conservative and minimalistic in its content than most of the reputable news media reports, let alone the tabloid reports. Ketone16 (talk) 22:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Against "jumanitarian" censorship

So, the position of 146.6.200.54 is that Wikipedia should not have an article about any murder. No article on the JFK assassination (don't want to hurt the Kennedys!), none about 9/11 (let's think about the families of the victims!), none about the Bhutto assassination (ditto)... No one is forcing anyone to read this article. I guess CNN and the Boston Herald should not cover it, either. I would prefer that young women be aware of the very real dangers in this contemporary society. Do not delete article. Writtenright (talk) 14:04, 15 September 2009 (UTC)writtenright

On further reflection: Wikipedia policy WP:BLP1E, "Articles about people notable only for one event", states that "Wikipedia is not a newspaper." Annie Le is famous only because of the circumstances of her unfortunate demise. That's not enough reason for an encyclopedia article. Delete article.Writtenright (talk) 14:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)Writtenright

By your argument, the vast majority of the thousands of articles in would have to be deleted as well. I disagree strongly. Sufficient notability for Wikipedia inclusion is conferred once a murder becomes a major (say, nation-wide) media/news event. —Lowellian (reply) 04:09, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

How is the media sensationalizing something sufficient reason for an article.?

Should the Judge Crater entry be deleted too? He was really only notable because he disappeared. 98.222.58.54 (talk)Eric Ferguson —Preceding undated comment added 17:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC).

Is she holding a baby in that security camera picture?

Looks like it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.137.18.50 (talk) 18:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I was wondering about that too. I wish someone who saw her that day could advise on what she was holding in that photo. Alanasings (talk) 13:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

It does look like it, but it is very unlikely. If the baby was found in the building, the police would have focused their efforts here for this reason, rather than because she was not seen exiting on CCTV footage. Also Annie was not a parent, as per her mothers comments "I will never hold my grandchildren." 124.148.149.177 (talk) 03:39, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

Article not a biography

Thus, an event infobox is what is called for the top of the page. Nevertheless, a bio infobox should be included as well because there is no biography for Annie Le on Wikipedia (see WP:PRESERVE concerning preserving sourced information on Wikipedia). The fact of the matter is, many articles within Wikipedia have infoboxes within sections (such as for a particular work in the biography of that work's creator, when the work itself would not be deemed notable enough to receive its own article). See infobox wrt terms of address used for President Barack Obama within a section of the biography Barack Obama -- along with many, many other precedents for biographical sections within parent articles having their distinct infoboxes. ↜Just M E here , now 23:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Connection to Jaycee Dugard

Just a weird coincidence that two ugly incidents currently in the national news both have El Dorado County, California connections. Both victims were at one time residents of the county. Corsair1944 (talk) 17:55, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Media coverage often incorrect

9/17/09

I regularly check the various news agencies for relevant and current information. Of late I have been appalled at the coverage of this murder. I want the facts and it seems that the news media can only rehash the fact that her body was found on the day she was to be married. Obviously this is their perception of a human interest hook. It would be useful if the reporting agencies would drop the bull and stick with the journalistic facts...Entries like this one are useful in that they simply and concisely report the facts.

-S

This often happens in news stories. A few facts get reported wrong and the other news agencies will just repeat the mistakes without checking. Wikipedia can provide a good counterbalance to this, particular when someone close to the story checks the article. In response to concerns above, I've found wikipedia editors to be very diligent in sticking to the facts on stories concerning ordinary people. This article is meant to be a dispassionate summary of the basic facts, and by definition of wikipedia, will contain nothing not already found in other professional articles.--Louiedog (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I've heard several times that her body was found in "several pieces", i.e., cut up, and stuffed behind the wall. Should this be included in the article? -- Masamunecyrus^(talk)_(contribs) 06:48, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

• It's not stated directly in any of the news sources. In fact, one says "It has not been released by police whether or not Annie Le had been dismembered...", which is a clear indication to me that the article can wait for a few days until a source reports on this. As for the blood-stained clothing found in the drop ceiling, we have not been told how much blood, nor whose blood. Abductive (reasoning) 07:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Arrest of suspect??

I don't see the name of the suspect, is there some reason for not releasing what has already been released by the press? Bachcell (talk) 16:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Suspect's name is in news articles. The name may have been kept out of this article intentionally, out of protection for him. He hasn't been convicted of anything. Anyway, the name is easily found.--Louiedog (talk) 19:56, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The name of the suspect should be in the article. Wikipedia does not censor information that has already gone out on thousands of news articles. —Lowellian (reply) 14:58, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Extremely difficult?

Due to high security measures in the building, authorities and Yale officials maintain that it would be extremely difficult for someone without a Yale identification card to enter the basement laboratory where Le's body was discovered, leading them to focus their investigation on Yale employees and students.

I'm not sure it is "extremely" difficult. Sometimes, you can get into a building when someone holds open the door. Students are often friendly and it's not like they do nuclear weapons research in that building.

On the other hand, I don't want to nitpick over one word. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 21:53, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

• The idea is that you have to penetrate security at an outside door, and then get into the lab itself, in what is typically the most secure building on a university campus; the animal building. And you have to do this without being recorded doing so on the (actually working) cameras. Abductive (reasoning) 22:10, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Procedural Q

(An English Wikipedia-wide question but nevertheless I'll post it here): Wouldn't topics of this type be worded more encyclopedically precisely as "Homicide of -----" -- to be moved to "Murder of -----" only after a verdict indicating this to be the case? ↜Just M E here , now 19:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a good point. I'll actually just move it to "death of", as that covers any possibility.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I have made the move. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 22:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

This is not French Wikipedia

Over the photo in the infobox, it says "Le murder case". That looks French, like Le Wikipedia, Le murder case, Le Car, Le Cat in le shoe, etc. Change to Annie Le homocide case? Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 22:19, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

What a silly (and insensitive) comment about someone's name. Perhaps we should change "Finland" because it sounds like the name of an aquarium ("Fin Land"). WWGB (talk) 02:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

 Done ↜Just M E here , now 01:14, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Move protection

Since there has been a spate of moves of this article, with little discussion and no consensus, I have fully move-protected it indefinitely. Work out a consensus on the talk page, and then request unprotection (either on my talk page, or at WP:RFPP.) Horologium (talk) 22:33, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Murder vs. Homicide

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to Murder of Annie Le. --RegentsPark (sticks and stones) 22:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Homicide of Annie Le → Murder of Annie Le or Death of Annie Le — This article was protected after a spate of undiscussed moves. I have created a Wikipedia:Requested move discussion to receive more feedback from the community. I agree with Xoloz (talk · contribs)'s comments below and support this move. Cunard (talk) 06:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Per the below comments, I have added Death of Annie Le to the header of the template above this discussion. I am swayed by Cuchullain (talk · contribs) and TJRC (talk · contribs)'s comments about WP:BLP and would support a move to Death of Annie Le, instead of a move to Murder of Annie Le. Cunard (talk) 20:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

While it is admirable that some commenters wish to avoid imputing any guilt upon any accused persons involved in Ms. Le's death, the term "murder" is more widely used in article titles in Wikipedia, even in cases where guilt has not been determined. In considering this use, it is important to remember that "murder" has a dictionary difinition besides that one appertaining specifically to law. To murder also means "to kill inhumanely." While no one has yet determined guilt conclusively in Ms. Le's death, the cause of death released by the corner (strangulation) does, I think, allow us to conclude that Ms. Le was killed inhumanely. The more widely-used style is, thus, perfectly reasonable, literally true, and can be employed without the fear of implying guilt. If my comment goes unchallenged for seven days, I will move the article accordingly. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 06:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

"Murder" has a specific legal definition, and as such using it isn't appropriate regarding a legal case that may or may not be murder. It's a matter of accuracy and of protecting the rights of a living person, who has not been convicted of anything at this time. "Death of Annie Le" would be better until a ruling is made, but the sources do pretty exclusively treat the case as a homicide.--Cúchullain ^t/c 12:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Cuchullain, I believe you missed the point of my comment. There are meanings of the word "murder" which do apply to this case, without any legal taint. Such meanings are used in common speech. Xoloz (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I suppose I wasn't clear: Yes, "murder" can be used in common speech to mean any killing. But it also has a legal definition which becomes relevant here, as the article is on a legal case. Now that we're including the suspect's name, this is a BLP issue and we must proceed with extreme caution. As such we should avoid any title that binds a person's name to a crime he hasn't been convicted of.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:59, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Obviously, this matter is academic, and not worth quibbling too much over. Having said that, do you feel there is any reasonable chance that this killing was not a murder, in either the legal or the common sense? While I understand and share concern regarding the presumed innocent suspect (indeed, I removed his name from the article myself), I do not think that calling an event a murder attaches the any stain of guilty to any one particular suspect. Even if the killer of Ms. Le is still free, and the man now standing accused is totally innocent, I doubt even the accused would dispute that a killing of this kind is an obvious murder, at least in the common sense. Indeed, in cases where the killer remains unknown, as with Suzanne Jovin, there is often no dispute that a murder has occurred. To my mind, "murder" as term should only be avoided if it is reasonable to believe a killing was not a murder (if the killing was lawful, accidental, or mitigated by other valid legal factors.) No one seriously disputes that this is a murder, however much doubt there may be as to the identity of the murderer. Xoloz (talk) 03:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe it matters very much, but as far as I can tell it looks very unlikely that this was anything but a killing by another person. But that doesn't mean it's legally murder necessarily - it could be manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide that was later covered up; I don't know much about Massachusetts law. That's my concern - since this is a legal case, we should avoid a word that carries a specific legal meaning if we're going to include a suspect's name. Plenty of other Wikipedia articles use Death of... so I don't conceive of that being an issue.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia in general, and this article in particular, are not legal documents. Although there are technical degrees of labeling homicides in the context of legal proceedings, i.e. degrees of murder, voluntary manslaughter, manslaughter, etc/, this is not that context. In the ordinary usage, of which this article is part, this event clearly meets the dictionary definition of "murder," regardless of whether that term is used in the charge against the suspect or whether he or anyone else is convicted. Note that the general press uses the term "murder," as well, e.e., [2] (CBS), [3] (Slate).

If the concern is for precise legal terminology and assuring that the title does not reflect a crime for which a suspect has not been convicted, "homicide," is just as wrong as "murder." "Homicide" is the umbrella term for criminal killings, such as murder and manslaughter. Any objection you have to "murder" applies to "homicide" as well. TJRC (talk) 14:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the article should call it a "homicide" either, it should use "death". If we're going by usage in sources alone, "death" returns far more Google hits than "murder" (as many of the sources referring to the "murder" must necessarily discuss her death).--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like death is more precise. Later, murder should be the article name, but not now. Suomi Finland 2009 (talk) 15:26, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Support: Change to Murder of Annie Le. It doesn't matter if a suspect has been convicted; there is no question she was murdered. -- Noj r (talk) 02:25, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

• Support Murder of Annie Le. There is mixup here between the form of death and the accusations of who caused that death. The form of death here is murder (found to be an asphyxiation). That is not in dispute by anyone is it? We say nothing about who committed her murder by naming it so, or using an inaccurate euphemism. What would be a problem is to state that X murdered Annie Le before that has been determined. Naming her murder a murder doesn't even implicate the issue of any particular person's culpability.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:41, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Re: Media coverage

I'm not sure what this section is trying to say...that all homicides should be treated equally? In that case, every gang-related homicide should also receive front page CNN coverage, which is simply ridiculous. Obviously, the media have to sort homicides based on their news-worthiness, which would include factors that were present initially in the case, such as suspect-still-at-large and that it happened in a supposedly safe environment.

While the statements made in this section are sourced correctly, the idea that this case received major attention because it was due to a Yale student is not supported by any evidence. there are many other possibilities as to why it's received extended coverage, including the fact that 1) it occurred on campus, 2) it occured in a supposedly secure location implicating someone at the university, 3) she was to be married soon, 4) when the story first broke, she was still missing and thus could have benefited from such coverage, etc. etc. The fact that some pundits are saying she received coverage only because she went to an Ivy league schooling is insulting. As an example of such coverage of someone not from an Ivy league school, I present the tragic case of Eve Carson. -- Bubbachuck (talk) 22:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think including one comment from a blogger at a local alt-weekly doesn't do much to balance it out. The real solution would be to trim down what's there, and not just give random quotes complaining about the coverage.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Agreed that its not the best source, it's simply the first source that popped up on a quick google search for Annie Le media coverage on Google. I also agree that it should be trimmed down...one or two quotes from each side is probably enough. In either case, that section seems extremely biased and it needs to be toned down -- Bubbachuck (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Other name(s) in case

Hello, what is normally done for other people who are connected to a murder case, in this case, Mr. Clark? Is the suspect's name normally made into a redirect to the pertinent article or is that not done because of WP:BLP? Thank you. LovesMacs (talk) 23:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia already has articles on several Raymond Clarks. The suspect in this case is Raymond J. Clark III. Although a redirect from that name to this article is at least debatably reasonable, the presence of other Raymond Clarks renders the question rather academic: any encyclopedia readers informed enough to search for Raymond J. Clark III will probably be wise enough to search for Annie Le first, and find their way here. Given this circumstance, together with BLP concerns, I don't think a redirect is necessary at this time. Best wishes, Xoloz (talk) 03:16, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

This article was very short

this article was very short ,can someone make it longer Crawling turtle (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you do it, asshole?

Can someone make this article better and longer please.

Can someone make this article better and longer please. I need a better and longer version to translate into vietnamese and update the article about homicide of Annie Le on vi.wikipedia.Crawling turtle (talk) 04:04, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I feel your pain, but I don't know how to make it better and/or longer. What type of information do you think is lacking? Abductive (reasoning) 21:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The motive might be of interest, whether the victim knew the perp, stuff like that. Lycurgus (talk) 17:54, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

It does not mention the sexual assault or other circumstances of the murder. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8257336/Yale-University-lab-slayer-sentenced-44-years 124.148.149.177 (talk) 03:31, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

(Adjusted your indentation.) Yes the indictment/conviction make clear that sexual assault was the motive. Lycurgus (talk) 22:09, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

This article need a photo in Annie Le infobox.

This article need a photo in Annie Le Personal life infobox. This photo is most common photo of her . [4] But i don't known how to upload photo on Wikimedia.Crawling turtle (talk) 03:34, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

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