This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
Sometimes I can't believe the crap I spend my time on. Oh well, beats workin'. - montréalais (talk) 06:41, 20 August 2002 (UTC)
Contrived
Can someone find a source that proves the town's name was contrived to be the longest in the country? If not, I think the sentence should be NPOV'ed based on verifiability. Mgm (talk) 19:38, 23 September 2004 (UTC)
A small village on an island in the very North of Wales, the island is called Ynys Mon (Uh-niece Moan) and it might be hard for some of you to get your tounge around it but here it is for you...
Amazing what some people consider to constitute an encyclopaedia article. — Trilobite (Talk) 13:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
song
Llanfair PG is the final line of an amusing little song from "The Mad Show" by Mary Rodgers and Stephen Sondheim about a woman pining over her strangely effeminate beach buddy:
TALL AND TENDER, LIKE AN APOLLO,
HE GOES WALKING BY, AND I HAVE TO FOLLOW HIM,
THE BOY FROM TACAREMBO LA TUMBE DEL FUEGO SANTA MALIPAS ZATATECAS LA JUNTA DEL SOL Y CRUZ. ("crooth")
WHEN WE MEET, I FEEL I'M ON FIRE
AND I'M BREATHLESS EVERYTIME I ENQUIRE,
"HOW ARE THINGS IN TACAREMBO LA TUMBE DEL FUEGO SANTA MALIPAS ZATATECAS LA JUNTA DEL SOL Y CRUZ." ("crooth")
WHY, WHEN I SPEAK, DOES HE VANISH?
OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO.
WHY IS HE ACTING SO CLANNISH?
OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO.
I WISH I UNDERSTOOD SPANISH.
WHEN I TELL HIM I THINK HE'S THE END,
HE GIGGLES A LOT WITH HIS FRIEND.
TALL AND SLENDER, MOVES LIKE A DANCER,
BUT I NEVER SEEM TO GET ANY ANSWER
FROM THE BOY FROM TACAREMBO LA TUMBE DEL FUEGO SANTA MALIPAS ZATATECAS LA JUNTA DEL SOL Y CRUZ. ("crooth")
I GOT THE BLUETH.
WHY ARE HIS TROUSERS VERMILLION?
HIS TROUSERS ARE VERMILLION.
WHY DOES HE CLAIM HE'S CASTILIAN?
HE THAYTH THAT HE'TH CATHTILIAN.
WHY DO HIS FRIENDS CALL HIM LILLIAN?
AND I HEAR AT THE END OF THE WEEK
HE'S LEAVING TO START A BOUTIQUE.
THOUGH I SMILE, I'M ONLY PRETENDING
'CAUSE I KNOW TODAY'S THE LAST I'LL BE SPENDING
WITH THE BOY FROM TACAREMBO LA TUMBE DEL FUEGO SANTA MALIPAS ZATATECAS LA JUNTA DEL SOL Y CRUZ. ("crooth")
TOMORROW HE SAILS.
HE'S MOVING TO WALES,
TO LIVE IN LLANFAIRPWLLGWYNGYLLGOGERYCHWYR NDROBULLLLANDYSILIOGOGOGOCH.*
The picture showing the family, however cute, barely shows the sign. So i took that picture, got the sign out, enlarged, and sharpened. Not a real pro job, but it gets the job done. If you think it should be in the article, go ahead and paste it in. The image link is here. I'll be putting it in myself in a couple days if there's no objections. Copysan 07:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Proof that the Welsh are insane and have a rubbish language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.177.56 (talk)
Hoax?
24.146.17.23 (talk·contribs) added a hoax label to this article. What nonsense. Of course Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is a real place. It's been given in plenty of reliable sources. And moreover, I've been there.
If OTOH there is some specific information in the article that you think may be a hoax, then please tell us what. Without knowing, any hoax label is useless, to put it mildly. -- Smjg 14:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Llanfairpwllgwyngyll long predates the longer form which was made up by someone purposely to become the longest place name.
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is by far the least common name for the village. No one calls it that except tourists amused by the length of the name.
The official name of the community for local government purposes (and as used in parliamentary legislation) is and always has been Llanfairpwllgwyngyll.
All signposts and maps refer to it as Llanfairpwll(gwyngyll).
Even someone under the mistaken impression that Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is the name, is going to look up the abbreviated form (unless they want RSI).
The only major thing which actually officially has the long name is the station, but, ironically, that is at Llanfairpwll railway station.
I suggest reverting the move, as the most common namein English is IMO Llanfair PG, which is where this article was originally though the official name would be fine too.
BTW, here are the Google test results (but I wouldn't read too much into these):
I have reverted the move as it took place without discussion and was from a common to an uncommon name. Joe Llywelyn Griffith Blakesleytalkcontrib 22:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Longest domain name?
This
past official village website, which had the longest Internetdomain name when it was set up (archived version from the Wayback Machine, the real site is now defunct)
I definitely remember coming across some even longer ones since this one was set up. But I can't remember any of them OTTOMH. What evidence is there that all of these, and any others that may have cropped up, have since expired? -- Smjg 10:05, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
Hard to say, unless you can remember what these domain names were. Until you have some evidence yourself, it seems a bit steep to label this claim "disputed". How about toning it down to something like "claimed to be the longest"? Flapdragon 13:21, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
If I knew of one that was still registered, I would have corrected the statement there and then. But since someone decided to alter the original statement, I figured it might be best to bring it here before an edit war breaks out. -- Smjg 13:37, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
No doubt there will be others constructed to use the maximum permissible number of characters (does it really matter?) but according to llanfairpwll[...].co.uk theirs is listed in the 2002 Gunness Book of Records as the longest. This seems like an objective enough claim to me, so have changed the text to reflect that. Flapdragon 16:26, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
The 2002 copy of the Guinness Book of World Records definitely lists this as the longest domain name. But then again, thats only the 2002 copy, there could be longer ones by now.
Yeah, their site actually notes that they themselves own another, longer, domain name, that points back to the same site. --Delirium 00:04, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
Quote: the longest name of a railway station in Great Britain
But (as I read it) it's not even on Great Britain, but on Anglesey.
"Great Britain" means "the lump of land which contains most of England, Scotland and Wales, plus all the little islands off the coast of it". Therefore, Angelsey is part of GB. --Camembert
I thought that was "British Isles". I'm really confused now. Someone needs to update Great Britain with "little island" info. ( 16:03 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
Yes, I didn't realise the GB page was as unclear as it is, and I'm going to try and clear it up now. "British Isles" means Great Britain plus Ireland (though some people now prefer Islands of the North Atlantic, so as to avoid the suggest all of Ireland belongs to Britain). --Camembert
Camembert is correct. Great Britain is the island on which England, Scotland and Wales are. So the reference is correct. It would have been incorrect if it had said England
Contradiction: "Great Britain is the island". Anglesey is a Welsh island, but is it part of Great Britain? If so, what is the large island called? Just "mainland of Great Britain"? ( 16:18 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
Anglesea is part of Wales. Wales is part of GB. Therefore it is treated as part of GB. The phrase 'mainland' is nonsense though (even though often repeated.) It is usually used by people who think Northern Ireland is part of GB, with GB minus NI = mainland. JTD 16:22 Feb 16, 2003 (UTC)
The use of "mainland Great Britain" can be fine depending on context: for instance, the Scottish island of Skye is connected to the mainland of Great Britain by a road bridge. But yes, most uses which involve Ireland in some way are based on a misconception. --
No, Northern Ireland is not part of Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom, however, which is officially styled "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland." 71.131.230.164 05:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's get this straight now:
Britain definition
- 1) Britain (geography) is the name of the island currently inhabited by the English, Welsh, and Scottish.
- 2) Great Britain (politics) is the name of the sovereign state created by the 1707 union of the kingdoms of England (which, sad but true, included Wales) and Scotland. It is often shortened to just "Britain" in casual use.
So it is perfectly correct to state that Anglesey is in Great Britain (that is the sovereign state to which it belongs) and perfectly acceptable, too, in everyday parlance to say that it is in "Britain" (= Great Britain).
Geographically, of course, it is separate from the island of Britain, so that it is appropriate to say things like "two bridges connect Anglesey to the mainland of Britain / to the British mainland".
The huge discrepancy in size between the island of Britain and the other English, Welsh, and Scottish islands nevertheless makes naming the chief island redundant in almost all cases. It would be thought absurd for a person leaving Anglesey, the Isle of Wight, Lundy, etc. for the mainland ever to say "Bye now. I'm off to Britain"!
Only "wrong" if you accept all of the premises of those articles, several of which are disputed – especially that which attaches a geographical meaning to the term "Great Britain". -- Picapica 11:41, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we just agree to use United Kingdom; Northern Ireland doesn't have any towns with names so long, so it is still correct. smurrayinchester(User), (Talk) 16:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
An excellent suggestion, S. I have converted the remaining "GB" to "the UK". -- Picapica 22:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but it is Great Britain. If you live in Angelsea then you have a UK passport. The passport reads "United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and Northern Ireland" Therefore, it is Great Britain. Angelsea is Wales, Wales is Great Britain, Angelsea is not a country in its own right, just as Orkney is not a COUNTRY. Wales is a country, Great Britain is not. But Great Britain is perfectly correct!!!
Yes but that really doesn't count! It's not even a place, and they just named it that to rival Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.
Userbox
For all who want it, I have created a userbox that tells that you know what Llanflair PG means.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 20:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Llanfair PG → Llanfairpwllgwyngyll — As Joe points out above, Llanfairpwllgwyngyll is the official full name; Llanfair PG may be in widespread use, but it's a colloquial abbreviation. I couldn't see any other encyclopedia using it as an article title, any more than LA or Brum would be acceptable article titles for those cities. There's a case for using Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll (two words), which is the form used on OS maps, but Llanfairpwllgwyngyll gets 10 times as many Google hits ([1][2]), and a smaller, but still significant, majority of .gov.uk hits. ([3][4].) Blisco 10:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Survey
Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
Support as nominator. --Blisco 13:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Weak support because I think there's a case for having this article at any one of four titles. However, Llanfairpwllgwyngyll is apparently the official name of the town and it's also signposted as such, so I think this should be the most favourable option. PC78 15:58, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose There is a pretty clear reason why the abbreviation is used so widespread and commonly--namely the difficulties in typing the full name. This is not a case of abbreviating for the sake of abbreviating but rather favoring the title that most people use. 205.157.110.11 01:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment - this is a move request from one abbreviation to another, not to the lengthly full version. So far as I can tell Llanfair PG doesn't have any more (or less) useage than other versions of the name. PC78 02:01, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment I see. Looking at the one's below, I'm still partial to typographical "path of least resistance" in favoring the shorter version-the current title or LlanfairPG, though the later seems to have more MOS issues. This situations seems similar to the naming consideration of Lake Chaubunagungamaug. I would LOVE to see that moved to Lake Webster but given the 49 letter alternative, its status quo is liveable. 205.157.110.11 03:27, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment Llanfairpwllgwyngyll is not an abbreviation, it's the original and official name. Read the article, or see below for further explanation. --Blisco 17:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Support. Reasons above are rather decent, Llanfairpwllgwyngyll is the winner given Wikipedia:Naming conventions as they currently stand (I do often disagree with "common names" but it's still the law of the land) and the current PG abbreviation is rather unsightly given my personal aesthetics for titles. (and before getting smacked by someone for applying personal taste...I'd remind you De gustibus non est disputandem) —ExplorerCDT 17:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Support Llanfair PG is a non-official abbreviation of the official short version, Llanfairpwllgwyngyll. If it were to be moved, Llanfair PG should redirect to the new given name. I don't mind the full name or just "Llanfairpwllgwyngyll"; Llanfair PG is an abbreviation used by my English relatives! Marbles 17:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Oppose I'd only support "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch". That's the official name and the reason why the place is known in the first place. An abbreviation isn't a good choice.--Húsönd 01:30, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
For the last time, Llanfair...gogogoch isn't the official name, and Llanfairpwllgwyngyll isn't an abbreviation. I'm not going through the history of it again, so please read the article and comments elsewhere on this talk page. --Blisco 17:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
All the sources I've visited state "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" as the main name of the place, including the article's references.--Húsönd 19:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Which sources have you visited apart from the article's references? Any website with a touristic focus, or which is aimed at the casual reader, will obviously use the long name as that is what the place is famous for. But this is a living, working village, most of whose 3,040 inhabitants don't work in the tourist trade. I'll reiterate the fact that for most of the village's history it was called Llanfair( )pwllgwyngyll, the long name was invented in the 19th century to pull in the tourists, and the original name remains the full name used by such "official" bodies as the Ordnance Survey, the Office for National Statistics and the Royal Mail. See #Revert move? above, where Joe makes the point as well as I could. We have Los Angeles, California, not "LA" or "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula". --Blisco 22:06, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Your argument is sound. Changed to neutral.--Húsönd 22:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Support The article should have the real name, with only a redirect on the common name. | AndonicOTalk · Sign Here 23:32, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Somehow, I think the most common name is Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch. That's also the reason it's famous (having That as a name). JorcogaYell! 12:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
See above for further discussion of this. Admittedly Joe Blakesley's Google test didn't include "Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll", but "Llanfairpwllgwyngyll" was apparently the most common term back in August 2006.
Beware of confusing common, official, and encyclopedic names. Letchworth and Retford may be "officially" known as Letchworth Garden City and East Retford respectively, and marked as such on most maps, but it would seem perfectly normal for the short form of either town to be used in a government publication or academic book. Conversely, neither "Llanfair PG" nor "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" would be expected in any serious publication unless it was to comment on the name itself. Most citizens of Los Angeles probably refer to the city as "LA" in common speech, but you'd look up the full name, not the abbreviation, in an encyclopedia or gazetteer. --Blisco 13:34, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
For whatever it's worth, I've done a new google search for each variant of the town's name. The results were:
I've added the proportion of unique articles to the above stats. Simply south 15:15, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
I've removed those stats because I don't see how they're useful. LlanfairPG may have the highest proportion of unique results to total results, but it doesn't change the fact that it's also one of the least common variants. PC78 15:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Don't forget that the hits for Llanfairpwllgwyngyll are going to include ones for Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch as well. JorcogaYell! 01:12, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm sure most hits for all of those searches are likely to include more than one variant. PC78 01:57, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
To reply more fully to PC78's suggestion above that "this is a move request from one abbreviation to another": the long name has never had any kind of official status and you won't find it in any map or in any government publication; it was made up in the 19th century to attract tourists, and that remains its sole purpose. Llanfairpwllgwyngyll or Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll was the village's original name, and it remains the name used for all official purposes, including by the Office for National Statistics, the Royal Mail and the Ordnance Survey. Of course we should use common names, providing they're common in all contexts. Llanfair PG is common in informal speech and writing, but as far as I know is uncommon in formal writing (including encyclopedias). Droitwich Spa and Blandford Forum are similarly uncommon names in informal speech, but the short form still redirects to the long form on Wikipedia.
In other cases where there are multiple possible versions of a name, the Ordnance Survey spelling is often considered definitive on Wikipedia. Given that, and also given the National Statistics spelling, I'd like to revise my initial move request and suggest that Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll is the least controversial title. --Blisco 17:37, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
So far as I can tell, it's debatable whether Llanfairpwllgwyngyll or Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll is the official name for the town. Given the significantly greater number of Google hits for the former (in the searches both you and I have done) I would have to oppose using Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll since it apparently isn't the more common of the two. PC78 16:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Google is a notoriously unreliable tool for determining the most common usage. If, as you say, it's genuinely debatable, it would make sense to go with the OS spelling. --Blisco 18:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I say it's debatable because I don't see any definitive evidence one way or the other. Is there any particular guideline that says we should follow OS?
As it stands my preference is still for a move to Llanfairpwllgwyngyll; if you're going to change your move request now then this whole discussion probably needs to start over. PC78 16:13, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
There's no guideline I know of that says we should follow OS (but see Talk:Carnedd Llewelyn for a discussion in which the OS is repeatedly invoked). However, it comes under the general heading of Reliable sources - and the OS and National Statistics were the most reliable sources I could find, restricted as I was to the web. I'd be interested to know what similarly reliable print publications use. However, as no one else seems interested, for the sake of consensus I'm happy to go with Llanfairpwllgwyngyll. --Blisco 17:37, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Cocos
I remember being told that the name was invented by the poet Cocos—a kind of Welsh McGonagall famous among other things for his poem inspired by the Britannia Bridge (Pedwar llew tew/Heb ddim blew,/Dau 'rochr yma/A dau 'rochr drew.). Has anyone else heard this and is there any evidence to suggest that this is the case? He was at least from Anglesey. garik 21:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Question
From the lead:
The name means: "St Mary's church in the hollow of the white hazel near to the rapid whirlpool and the church of St Tysilio of the red cave".
In what language? --125.23.111.201 06:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Welsh, of course. -- Arwel (talk) 08:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Wav file
I've removed the link to a wav file at the village website. Like the highly peculiar English-spelling version with -queern- for -chwyrn- and -llandus-ilio- for -llantysilio-, it's misleading and likely to confuse anyone who compares it with the IPA rendering on this page: as I note above, [go.ˌgɛ:.ri.ˌʃvin-ˌdro.bo] (or thereabouts) is a very odd realisation of /ɡo.ˌɡɛr.ə.ˌχwərn.ˌdro.buɬ/. I admit that I'm not well acquainted with the local accent in Welsh—and someone who is may wish to correct me—but I'd be very surprised if the wav file represents a good local pronunciation by native Welsh speakers. garik 15:55, 5 February 2007 (UTC)Modified by garik 23:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Etymology
The village was originally known as Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll "St Mary's church in the hollow of the white hazel", and there was a nearby hamlet called Llantysilio Gogogoch "the church of St Tysilio of the red cave". The names were linked by an in-between feature, the chwyrn drobwll, or rapid whirlpool.
Any source for this? Flapdragon 10:48, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think anyone disputes the etymology as it is pretty obvious what it means given the words are mostly still in use today and they haven't been changed much to form the name. (Although, maybe it would be more accurate to translate llan as parish not church.) Maybe, you are questioning the name being made from the town's original name (indeed what still is its de facto and de jure full name) and that of a nearby hamlet; I have heard that often too. I'm sure there are loads of websites you could reference, and I have read this exact etymology in several off-line sources, but unfortunately don't think I have one to hand ATM if you wanted a more reputable source.
I'm not sure what you mean in this case by the etymology. It's obvious what the elements of the name are supposed to mean, and I think it's fairly well-known that it was invented by a tailor in the early 19th century. What I was asking for was a source for this idea that there were two nearby villages linked by a reference to a whirlpool. Anyway this is what Adrian Room's Oxford Concise Dictionary of Modern Place-Names in Britain and Northern Ireland has to say (excuse the deathless prose): "Doubtless prompted by the already existing lengthy name of the village (Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll) [...] the tailor took the name of a nearby parish, Llandysilio, altered this to the name of another place in Cardiganshire, Llandysiliogogo (thus combining the names of two nearby parishes, Llandysilio, 'St Tysil's church', and Gogo, 'the cave') and then added a middle section and a final, meaningless '-goch'. The middle section does not exist as an independent name, but seems [sic] to allude to a swirling pool called the Pwll Ceris in the narrow section of the Menai Strait near the village: goger y chwyrn drobwll, 'near the fierce whirlpool'." So the nearby hamlet was in fact the other end of Wales — but why would the famous tailor go so far for inspiration for his invented name? It's a shame the book doesn't say where this info comes from, and I'm not sure how reliable it may be (or about the logic of the argument either), but it's a start. Flapdragon 00:11, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
I've corrected the entry. "There was a nearby hamlet called Llantysilio Gogogoch" etc.? There still is a small village/parish called Llandysilio but it never has been called 'Llantysilio Gogogoch'. Further on the name, see my note (I think an English edition of Atlas Môn was published as well, but I'm not sure). I also cut down the ridiculous 'Llanfair...etc...-uchaf/isaf' (strongly tempted to remove it completely). There is a lower and upper village but 'pentra isa' and 'pentra ucha' would be the names used by the inhabitants of Llanfairpwll; but nobody outside the village would be likely to use such a local distinction for such a small place and I'm 100% positive that nobody would dream of using the ludicrous super-long forms and doubt if they have ever existed. Enaidmawr 00:28, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, well done, I was thinking that bit had the ring of something introduced to stretch the joke (and the name) even further for comic effect. How people can believe, as they seem to, that such an absurd name would ever be in actual practical use is beyond me. Flapdragon 00:35, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Just a question.
Does anyone have a reference to who named Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch as it is. It would be nice to add it to the article. 211.31.55.220 05:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't want to edit the main page, but someone might want to add that there is an amusing song about the town by the Mrs Ackrtoyd Band in which they spell out the name every time it is used.
216.36.132.66 (talk) 21:45, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Nonsense tag
Just saw this edit flagged up as "Tag: nonsense characters". Ah Welsh... -mattbuck (Talk) 22:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
(sub)urban myth?
The village is split into two, smaller, villages, Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch-isaf (Lower Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch) and Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch-uchaf (Upper Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch).
It's a "good story", as they say, but I seriously doubt its genuineness! -- Picapica 22:05, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not convinced. Loads of Welsh villages (most even?) have a pentre uchaf and a pentre isaf. Doesn't mean that anyone has ever seriously used those "full monty" names – especially since no-one in Llanfairpwll unconnected with the tourist industry ever uses the full-blown version of the name even sans isaf and uchaf... I think it belongs in the box marked "A wag has suggested that even longer versions of the name exist in "Ll...-uchaf" and "Ll...-isaf" to refer to the upper and lower portions of the village". -- Picapica 00:11, 11 March 2006 (UTC)
I live in Llanfairpwll, and there is no such thing as the village splitting in two!--86.142.92.126 21:33, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I also live in Llanfairpwll and when we moved from pentre isaf to pentre uchaf our next door neighbours - that rare thing an old Llanfair family - thought we were really moving up in the world. Locals talk of there being two football teams at one time one for each half! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.100.216 (talk) 14:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
Longest Place Names
This article should refer to longest place names, not longest words. Please stop changing it back. Maztec (talk) 19:09, 3 October 2010 (UTC)
Llanfair at Donald Duck
As far as I can remember right, Llanfair was site of a Donald-Duck-Comic, maybe this is also interesting as a point of using in modern media.87.173.190.95 (talk) 15:03, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Not unles you have a source for this; even then, not every reference to LlanfairPG in "modern culture" needs to be mentioned in the article, lest it gets swamped in trivia. BencherliteTalk 15:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
alternate picture of Llanfair PG sign
If anyone is interested, I created a sharpened version of the Llanfair PG sign using Illustrator. Here is a link to the file:
I changed the symbol for the high central vowel in the pronunciation guide. I don't object to the symbol used before on phonetic grounds. It's just that I think we should avoid symbols not included here, so as to make this as user-friendly as possible. 69.86.203.66 (talk) 23:32, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
Pronounciation of "ll"
Hi. For English speakers, why don't we just simplicify the pronounciation of "ll" as the English "sh"? I've heard videos of its pronounciation on Youtube. For English speakers, the pronounciation is somewhat close to "SHAAN-weiir-PUULSH-geenn-GEELSH-goh-GAAREHH-winn-DJWAB-ushaan-ti-SEELIO-guh-guh-guohh". Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 23:56, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
For English speakers, no, it's really not. That's even worse than the "approximation" on the sign at the station in the photo. Flapdragon (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Quite agree with Flapdragon, the pronunciation of "ll" is NOTHING like "sh", and if the rest of AH1's approximation has appeared on YouTube then the speaker had a speech impediment. -- Arwel Parry(talk) 02:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi. How about puulsh-GINGISH instead of PUULSH-geenn-GEELSH, and "hlsh" instead of "sh"? Or is this pronounciation still off? For examples of the videos, see [5][6][7]. Thanks. ~AH1(TCU) 18:02, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
You should stop discussing the pronunciation of it, you have no clue what you're on about. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.218.227 (talk) 01:54, 28 August 2011 (UTC)
Indeed. As you can see from the date, they stopped discussing it in March 2009. garik (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
Mary?
I see nothing in the placename that resembles "Mary". I gather that "Fair" is the Welsh name for Mary, but does this literally mean "virgin", or does it come from the English word "fair", or what? Some tiny expansion of the etymology section could be useful. Thanks. LordAmeth (talk) 10:35, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
I don't understand your answer. If Mary is Mair, then what part of Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll means "Mary" or "St. Mary('s)"? In addition, the article explains what Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll means but not what its parts mean. More importantly, it's missing the explanation of the original medieval name:
"The village was originally known as 'Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll' "St Mary's church in the hollow of the white hazel." 'Pwllgwyngyll' was the name of the original medieval township where the village stands today." --Espoo (talk) 07:38, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
The "fair" bit. Welsh has this funny thing called consonant mutation. That this is an example is my inkling, anyway. -- Smjg (talk) 10:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Precisely. Mair is the Welsh form of Mary. In the Celtic languages, the first consonant of a word often changes as a result of various morphosyntactic triggers. One of the cases where the consonant usually changes is when the word forms the second part of a compound. Llanfair is a compound of this sort. The first part is llan, which means "church". The second part is Mair ("Mary"), which undergoes mutation to fair (pronounced /vair/). And no, the form is entirely unrelated to English "Fair", and does not mean virgin. The usual modern word for virgin is gwyryf; the one normally used in the context of Mary is morwyn (as in y Forwyn Fair—note the two cases of mutation here; the first for a different reason from the second), which usually means "maid" in modern Welsh (cf. Maid Marian). I hope that helps. garik (talk) 13:04, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, that's part of what i asked, but please fix the article. As explained above, the article explains what Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll as a whole means but not what its parts mean. More importantly, it's missing the explanation of the original medieval name (Pwllgwyngyll). --Espoo (talk) 22:29, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
That do you? garik (talk) 09:16, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
Two years gone by now, and I am a new reader who also wondered how you got church/st MARY out of "llanfair". above explanation is clear enuf (mair -> fair mutation); please tweak article to match!!!!
also, is "llan" CHURCH or SAINT, actually? comments above state that it is church (and that "saint" is just ASSUMED, i guess?), but article implies the reverse. i left thinking that "llan" was saint and that CHURCH was the part assumed (similar to "St. Mary's" in English). 66.105.218.27 (talk) 06:23, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
No, the saint part is assumed. I've added some square brackets to make such things clearer. I'm not sure this article is the place to explain how we got "Mary's Church" out of Llanfair. It can't be indicated very easily in passing without raising all sorts of other questions (just as noting that Llanfair means "Mary's Church" has raised this question). We'd have to note that Llan is a form that means "church" in placenames (though not now outside proper names), that the Welsh form for Mary is Mair, that the normal way to indicate possession is to place the possessor after the possessed without mutation (with a zero article for the possessed), but that in proper names the two words are often compounded, which does trigger mutation. Then of course we'd have to explain the elements of the compounds gwyngyll, chwyrndrobwll, and Llantysilio. Or what elements in the Welsh correspond to an indefinite article in the translation (the answer is none of them). Do we then go on to explain mutation? To be specific, this is a case of soft mutation, which is one of three (arguably four) mutation patterns in Welsh. Essentially it involves voicing voiceless stops and fricating voiced ones (although /g/, which was fricated at an earlier stage, is now reduced to zero).
Surely it's enough in an article of this sort that we tell a reader what the elements mean, not how they mean it? If we go down that route, then why not explain the relationship between the spelling and the pronunciation?
What I'm trying to say is this: I understand that you, like other commenters, don't see how we get from Llanfair to "Mary's Church", but I could just as easily imagine someone who didn't see how we get from llanfair to [ɬanvair]. This article isn't the place to answer these questions. If you're really interested in knowing, why not learn Welsh (or at least enough that you get a feel for how Llanfair can means "Mary's Church")? garik (talk) 15:31, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm not sure how much to explain about mutation; I was bothered more by the lack of consistency on the use of "church" and "saint". It's better now, but could still use some final tweaking, such as using "[St] Tysilio's Church (Llantysilio)" instead of "the church of [St] Tysilio (llantysilio)". Just some parallelism with the Mary part.
Which begs the question...why is Mary's "translated" on that sign, but Llantysilio left in Welsh?! That would bug me forever!
Nothing you can do to fix that, I suppose, but next time I'm in the area I'm taking a can of spray paint and FIXING that sucker!!!! 66.105.218.33 (talk) 05:04, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
new audio file
Native Welsh speaker from North Wales here, I just recorded a new audio file for this article. I feel that it's a more accurate representation of how the name would be said natively. Please comment if you notice any part of the recording that is unclear or inaccurate. RWyn (talk) 20:23, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
I agree, It isn't exactly as the locals pronounce it but it is a lot nearer than the previous version. VelellaVelella Talk 15:44, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
I have played it over and over ... but cannot quite hear the *chwyrn* just before drobwll. Is there a reason for that? 21st CENTURY GREENSTUFF 16:23, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
On my end it sounds as I intended it to. Here's a slowed down version, is it any clearer? I can rerecord if there's still a problem. RWyn (talk) 17:21, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Translation of Gorsafawddacha'idraigodanheddogleddollônpenrhynareurdraethceredigion
Anyone like to comment on the translation of Gorsafawddacha'idraigodanheddogleddollônpenrhynareurdraethceredigion. "a'idraigodanhedd" seems an odd way to say "and its dragon teeth" in Welsh (please comment here). garik (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Count of characters
The name is 58 characters long, but does not include 58 letters. The name is a Welsh one, using letters from the Welsh alphabet. Each letter represents a different sound and some letters ('ch', 'ng', 'll') are digraphs - two characters representing one sound and combined as one letter. The name is therefore 51 letters in length. To count the length as any more than 51 letters, as the article currently does, is to regard some or all the letters as letters from another language, which of course they are not.
Cymrodor (talk) 13:10, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Reduce first word
Could the title Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch be slightly reduced in font size to prevent it from appearing under the taxobox? If I reduce it by only 1.58%, it will fit. Intelligentsium 02:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree it looks horrible, but most people won't notice the problem - maximising my browser window gets rid of it. Some optional hyphens would do the trick, but I can't work out how to insert them using wikicode (not even sure it's possible - in TeX it would be \-). Modest Geniustalk 21:06, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
Maximising the browser isn't a solution; we need to accommodate users with different systems, screen sizes and limitations (within reason). Reducing the font size is irregular and would create accessibility issues. Inserting optional hyphens might be desirable (if technically feasible), although this might create the mistaken impression that the name is actually hyphenated when it actually is not. I thought another option might be to drop the infobox below the first couple of lines, but I'm not sure whether this can be done other than by moving it below the entire first paragraph, and this would be inconsistent with the placement of all other infoboxes. Quite a conundrum. —sroc💬 15:14, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Opening sentence
Why does the opening sentence say "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is a large village..." when previous discussions, reflected in the article, make it clear that the correct official name of the village is Llanfairpwllgwyngyll? Tourist promotion activities, whether in the 19th century or currently, should not determine the content of this article. Per WP:BEGIN, the opening sentence should give the correct village name, as set out in the article title, not the promotional version. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
How the lede looks A separate but related issue regards the positioning of the infobox. I noticed that if the browser width is too narrow, the first word in the article doesn't fit and the entire lead section gets pushed below the infobox (see image at right and discussion at "Reduce first word" above). I tried moving the infobox below the first sentence which neatly avoided the problem, but this has been reverted by Keith D, presumably for conformity because infoboxes are usually at the very top. This is rather an unusual case.
I had not realised that you had specifically moved the infobox on the article, I just moved it to the normal location at the top of the article. Keith D (talk) 23:21, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I had explained it in my edit summary (it was the last edit) and on the talk page. What do you think we should do here? —sroc💬 23:26, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, this was fine until 2011 when the long name was added to the infobox, expanding the infobox's width and narrowing the space for the lede text, and it's been a problem ever since. —sroc💬 23:34, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I think there is no real answer here as this is user specific as it depends on their screen width and font size that the user has set. It may be best not to mention the long name in the lead to avoid the problem for all users. Keith D (talk) 23:47, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
One option could be to use one or more soft hyphens­, e.g.: Llanfairpwllgwyngyll­gogerychwyrndrobwll­llantysiliogogogoch gives Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch (resize your browser window to see how it works). -- Dr Greg talk 00:06, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Perfect! Assuming there are no compatibility issues with this, I think that's the best idea. It should work gracefully for those who need it and be hidden for those who don't. —sroc💬 06:12, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Hyphens should only appear between syllables, though, and the soft hyphens should be inserted between each syllable since we cannot predict where the line will break in every situation. Assuming there are no objections, could someone familiar with Welsh syllables please insert the soft hyphens between them, both in the word and the corresponding punctuation? Thanks everyone! —sroc💬 06:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I think I figured it out from the syllable markers in the pronunciation. —sroc💬 23:24, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
As the hidden text says, the long name in the infobox is "not really the "local" name but the unofficial name". So, why is it in the infobox at all? No-one has yet answered the question with which I started this thread. Why do we, as an encyclopedia, persist in giving such credibility to a publicity initiative? Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:38, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
Although I came here from hearing and seeing the name Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch in an episode of Only Connect, an Ngram shows that Llanfairpwll is the most common term in recent corpus (and historically throughout most of the 1900s) whereas the long form is not found at all. —sroc💬 12:35, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
On this basis, I would agree that Llanfairpwll should be the first name first in the first sentence, although the long form should be included in the lede as a notable alternative name that will be why many readers come to the article out of interest. —sroc💬 12:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
It does seem that both Llanfairpwll and Llanfairpwllgwyngyll are used both officially and locally, and some more thought might need to be given to which form is the principal version. But, if we are agreed that the promotional long version is not used officially and locally, we should minimise the extent to which it is used here, and start some rewording of the lead and the infobox. I've had a first attempt. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:51, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
citation needed WHY?
Let us all have a bit more common snese than this. I am US english american. Forgive me. But even I can see from the listen that this is no average , near average, no somewhere My langauge devolved from this.. that thats welsh. They are welsch...... Who asks for citation and why? Their is no need to step on there toes... They will correct it if that is wrong... The citation needed Kneeds to drop. 4 real. 99.137.241.158 (talk) 02:36, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
This should be a texas based IP range as I am texan.. maybe the locas have an issue.. in witch I would say oo both translations would be better but otherwise// What smart alec minority is being misrepreented ofver the majority... Let them be welsh If the locals claim welsh... Honor the natives DUH! 99.137.241.158 (talk) 02:42, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Marquis's Column & Plas Newydd
There is a brief mention of the Marquis's column under the photograph accompanying the article. I really do think this information should also be included in the text. After all it is the most prominent feature of the village. It might also be worth adding the construction date. Mention might also be made of Plas Newydd, which was formerly the seat of the Marquis of Anglesey and is the most noteworthy building in the area. Students of post-war Britain might also like to know that Llanfair P.G. was the home of two presea training establishments in the post-war period: HMS Conway and TS IndefatigableEverybody got to be somewhere! (talk) 23:18, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Gentilic (demonym)
What is the gentilic or demonym of people in Llanfair PG? I do not find in the dictionary or Google translator. Nina (talk) 12:33, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
It uses soft hyphens to enable the word to be broken up by visitors' browsers at whatever place is the best fit for the width of the page. But what if we simply remove the hyphens, forcing the entire word to appear on the same line? I think it would have a more "significant" appearance: right now, one could imagine that it's a compound word broken by a hyphen, and the length is highlighted better when the whole word appears on one line. Nyttend (talk) 23:08, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Then you'd get display problems - see a few threads above where this was all discussed last year. BencherliteTalk 23:18, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
Look at this old version in various narrow windows and see how untidy it looks, with huge empty spaces. -- Dr Greg talk 00:01, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
Requested move 2 November 2015
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Withdrawn by Nominator:
I withdraw this nomination given the disappointing, constant failure to address the legitimate points I have made regarding article naming and my use of statistics. This process has shown Wikipedia at its worst, sadly. I will seek to revisit this matter at a later date.
Oppose. The long name is not its official name, and the shorter form (various shorter forms, in fact) is used both officially and locally. The long name is essentially an old joke, and not to be used as the title of an encyclopedia article about a real place. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Firstly, the page says it is the official name. Secondly, you ignored WP:COMMONNAMEAusLondonder (talk) 16:01, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
"The long form of the name is the longest officially recognised place name in the United Kingdom and one of the longest in the world" AusLondonder (talk) 16:03, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
"Officially recognised" was unsourced, so I've removed those words. Find a source for its official use and we can put them back. The official name of the railway station - the original source of the joke long name - is simply Llanfairpwll. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Acording to the article, the place's usual name before the railway-related joke long version, is Llanfairpwllgwyngyll or Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll (or formerly also Llanfair ym Mhwllgwyngyll) = "the church of St.Mary [in the township named] White Hazel Pool". One list says that the longest genuine Welsh placename is Llanfihangel ym Mechaint. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:55, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Strong oppose (1) I think you mean Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch not Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch - your version has hidden hyphens in it, which is why it is showing up red. (2) The only signs in the village that say Llanfairpwll...gogogoch are at the railway station (so that tourists can have their picture taken there - as noted, the station is not called that within the railway network), the pub opposite the railway station, the large shop by the railway station and the car dealership. All the road signs to the village, and the official signs within the village, say Llanfairpwll or Llanfairpwllgwyngyll. Nobody local says Llanfairpwll...gogogoch unless showing off to a non-Welsh speaker. The village's Community Council is Llanfairpwllgwyngyll Community Council. The church is St Mary's Llanfairpwll. The local newspapers will never call it Llanfair...gogogoch when writing about news from the village, unless of course it's a story about the longest name. All of these are pretty good clues that the village is not officially or commonly called by the made-up-for-tourists version of the name. BencherliteTalk 23:14, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Oppose. Geonames gives the current title as "approved" (meaning official). (See this guideline.) The longer form is given as a "variant." Fernando Safety (talk) 09:55, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
This guideline generally applies to the US. It also states "However, if colloquial usage does differ, we should prefer actual American usage to the official name". Why do we use Moscow instead of Moskva? AusLondonder (talk) 11:11, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
"Moscow" is BGN "conventional," which corresponds to "common name" in Wikipedia terminology. This is explained in the link I gave. Several non-US examples are given. I don't where you got the idea that the site is US specific. Fernando Safety (talk) 12:43, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Oppose Ditto reasons above. Hogyn Lleol (talk) 10:30, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Couple of points being ignored by all editors:
WP:COMMONNAME. Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch is the common name. This is apparent in basic search engine numbers. 3,420,000 vs 367,000 for Llanfairpwllgwyngyll.
Many other cities and places on Wikipedia use their common name, such as Rome for Roma or Hamburg instead of Freie und Hansestadt Hamburg or Free and Hanseatic City of Hamburg
If that is indeed what the Oxford Dictionary says (impossible to tell from a snippet), it's wrong. Both Llanfair and Llanfair PG are abbreviations of Llanfairpwllgwyngyll, not the joke long name. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:14, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
So you are genuinely so arrogant as to believe you are smarter than Oxford Reference whilst simultaneously and conveniently ignoring all the other evidence? AusLondonder (talk) 16:20, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
Actually, it does User:Some Gadget Geek, it is Taumata (as stated in the article, which you have evidently not read. By the way, have you read WP:COMMONNAME either? AusLondonder (talk) 16:21, 3 November 2015 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Soundfile
Any chance of a Welsh tongued Wikipedian uploading a soundfile (ogg) for this? {Ⓐℕάℛℹℴɴ} 08:38, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
No, but the village homepage at the bottom of the article has a bunch of soundfiles... --IvanP 01:01, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
There's something really weird about that guy's accent though. His "ll" is very weak, as is his "ch" in places, and the way he pronounces "gogerychwyrndrobwll" is just bizarre, a bit like "gogereeshvindrobo". And he seems to be pronouncing "tysilio" as if it's spelt "tisilio". garik 21:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
That is not how you say it!--86.142.92.126 21:32, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Agreed - that is very definitely *not* a "South Welsh Accent"! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.1.40 (talk) 16:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
I tried uploading this
Pronunciation of Llanfairpwll
but was not allowed to upload it because a voice-clip already exists on the page, however the existing voice-clip is really off, sounds more middle-eastern or English learner feel to it where as the soundclip I tried to add is from a North Welsh speaker, if anyone wants to dispute it and add the clip above instead, it's up to them, I'm not going to fight. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hogyncymru (talk • contribs) 01:44, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
BBC news
Although perhaps 35 years ago now, wasn't there a news reader who became fired because she couldn't pronounce "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" ?
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Boeing720 (talk • contribs) 02:55, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
"ich" and "Bach"
The "ch" in the Welsh pronunciation is a voiceless uvular fricative[χ] as in the pronunciation for "Bach" ([baχ] in German. The pronunciation for "ich" ([ɪç]) is different in most varieties of German, although they are pronunciations of the same underlying phoneme /x/ (See ich-Laut and ach-Laut). So you cannot simply substitute "ich" for "Bach". --Iceager 11:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
To be fussy, it's not normally a uvular fricative in German but a velar one. Flapdragon 12:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Then someone should mention that at the German phonology article, which says that the phoneme /x/ is pronounced as a uvular [χ] after [a,aː]. I don't speak German, so I wouldn't know whether it's normally a [χ] or a [x] for most German speakers (though I'm sure there's a lot of regional variation), but I was basing the pronunciation [baχ] on that article as well as my pronunciation dictionary, which also gives the fricative as [χ] in the word "Bach". --Iceager 19:29, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
Flapdragon is totally wrong. The German sound is definitely uvular, although often described as a velar one due to /x/ being easier to type. The velar sound is wrong in all German contexts. There is a big difference between the German sound and the Russian sound, which is a real velar one. --94.134.89.220 (talk) 19:15, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
Fix the IPA
The IPA file of the full name being read out loud has missing syllable breaks! Can this be fixed? IPA editor (talk) 16:24, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Long name in opening sentence
On 11 June 2019, Kekpot changed the opening paragraph to read as follows:
That change was not challenged at the time - but, it should have been, per earlier discussions on this page. The long version of the name is neither the WP:COMMONNAME nor accurate. I've now - belatedly - reverted that change, to the previous version:
Llanfairpwllgwyngyll or Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll (pronounced [ɬanˌvairpuɬˈɡwɨ̞nɡɨ̞ɬ]) is a large village and local government community on the island of Anglesey in Wales. It is situated on the Menai Strait next to the Britannia Bridge and across the strait from Bangor. Both shortened (Llanfairpwll or Llanfair PG) and lengthened (Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch) forms of the placename are used in various contexts.
. Further discussion here, please. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:08, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
@Ghmyrtle: Thank you for mentioning me. The above discussions are about moving the page to the longer name, not about how the article's opening paragraph should be written. WP:COMMONNAME only dictates what the article name should be; the very first example stated in that very policy, Bill Clinton, opens with William Jefferson Clinton, invalidating your point. The reason why I changed the opening paragraph in the first place is to make this article more consistent with the other articles in Wikipedia, and I have no interest in further debating this issue. --Kekpot (talk) 14:22, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
OK. But the point is the long name is only used in promotional material and as a joke - not in official use, or by residents - and therefore should not lead the opening sentence. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:41, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
I agree - it's Llanfair Pwllgwyngyll for most legal purposes and in normal use; this should come first.Svejk74 (talk) 15:02, 19 March 2020 (UTC)
The image of the full name in #19th_century_renaming doesn't fit on mobile view, us there a way to fix this? RobotGoggles (talk) 18:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
Pronunciation issues
The pronunciation "guide" is not satisfactory.
At least the following things come to mind:
1) Different substitutions are made for the same sound: /ll/ is given as "cl", "lth", and "th"; /ch/ as "ck" and "gch"
2) There is an extraneous 'r' in "gor" (for -go-)
3) What is the reason for "tay"?
4) To call /ch/ a "glottal h" sound is very strange: a) 'h' [h] is a glottal sound; b) 'ch' [x] (ach-laut; loch, Bach) is velar
Anyhow, an IPA transcription would be much nicer, if it can be arranged.
Also, there is a sound file at the town's official page (linked).
- LRC
it would be excellent to have an adiofile with someone saying the whole name! ... i mean someone who is able to do so ;) ...Sicherlich 19:59, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I think I can pronounce it near enough but it needs a Welsh speaker to give us a sound file. The pronunciation paragraph is really terrible so I've commented the whole lot out for now. I don't feel confident in adding IPA because I'm not sure about the realisation of some of those Welsh vowels (and because I really don't know enough about the IPA to transcribe much, only read other people's transcriptions). I reckon it's very approximately /ɬænvaɪəpəɬgwɪngɪɬgɒgəɹɪxwɪ:ndɹɒbəɬæntɪsɪliogɒgɒgɒx/ but I wouldn't like to see that crude attempt in the article. We need input for the IPA from Angr or someone I think, and perhaps a sound sample from Arwel Parry who's a native speaker and recorded Welsh language for Spoken Wikipedia. — Trilobite (Talk) 13:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I added the IPA in using the grapheme-phoneme distribution from Welsh language#Orthography, the sound file, and my ears. A couple of the vowels might be a little off, but I'm confident in all the consonants and most of the vowels. It's perhaps not perfect, but it's certainly better than the iffy non-standard English-but-not-any-particular-English-with-a-little-bit-of-Hebrew-thrown-in-for-good-measure guide that was there before. If User:Angr has a better ear than I, then he should perhaps have been the one to transcribe it, and he's welcome to correct or whatnot, but it's been 5 months since he was suggested, so I figured I'd give it the old college try.
The current IPA pronunciation guide seems wrong, but I don't know enough about IPA transcription (not to mention zero knowledge of Welsh) so I just changed the most obviously wrong part (ŋ -> ng). Can someone more knowledgeable give the definitive guide? If not, I'm wondering if the current info should be deleted, since a wrong pronunciation guide introduces just more confusion. I'm coming here because a whole sandstorm of confusion has been kicked up at the Korean Wikipedia regarding the correct transcription of the name in the Korean alphabet. --Iceager 14:06, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Various bits could be improved (such as the little marks under the barred i's which are hardly necessary if this is meant to be a phonemic transcription as indicated the use of slashes rather than square brackets), but the obvious mistake is that in the sequence ...gogerychwyrndrobwll... the second y should be represented by schwa rather than the high central vowel. (As you can see I'm writing this without benefit of funny characters.) Also there's no reason not to use /w/ when (just as in English) the letter w is semiconsonantal, rather than vocalic. Flapdragon 16:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I finally found a reference that has the IPA trancription of this place name. It is Longman Pronunciation Dictionary by J C Wells, originally published 1990, the 2nd ed. published 2000. According to that dictionary, the pronunciation is [ˌɬan.vair.puɬ.ˌɡwɪ̈n.ɡɪ̈ɬ.ɡo.ˌɡer.ə.ˌχwərn.ˌdro.buɬ.ˌɬan.də.ˌsil.jo.ˌɡo.ɡo.ˈɡoːχ]; I've given it in the article exactly as it appears there (I wasn't sure whether to cite in the article; does one cite pronunciation guides?). Hopefully that's authoritative enough, but then again, the pronunciations given for the Ukrainian place names in the dictionary are plain wrong. --Iceager 08:22, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Pronunciation revisited
The IPA transcription now in the article is pretty good. However, the "approximate pronunciation in English orthography", whether or not it's given at the station, is rather misleading. "queern" is a simply bizarre way to represent [χwərn], and I'm surprised to see "llandus" rather than "llantus" - although I can quite imagine a Welsh speaker pronouncing it that way, this wouldn't be standard, and I think is somewhat confusing for non-Welsh speakers - it's a bit like explaining to non-English speakers that "all right" is pronounced "awite". Furthermore (as I said above) the pronunciation on the sound file is very odd. -gogerychwyrndrobwll- ([ɡo.ˌɡer.ə.ˌχwərn.ˌdro.buɬ]) sounds like "gogereeshvindrobo" ([ɡo.ˌɡer.i.ˌʃvin.ˌdro.bo]). I really don't know why this should be. If anyone can provide a better soundfile, that would be great. I'd do it myself, but, like Lenin, I can't pronounce my [r]s! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Garik (talk • contribs) 14:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC).
Actually as a Welsh speaker myself I would say that the officeial name contains a small error. the word Llan literally meaning enclosure is always followed by a welsh grammatical feature called a soft mutation. Therefore it SHOULD have been llanDysilio not Llantysilio. A native speaker would tend to make this change automatically. Neilj (talk) 09:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I have added a sound file of myself pronouncing the name. I am a resident of South Wales though, so even though I know how to pronounce it, I do so with a South Wales accent, and not the North wales accent that would be expected for someone who lives there (and the two accent families are quite different). It would be preferable for a native Welsh speaker from North Wales (if possible, one from Anglesey), to add their own sound recording.
TarquinWJ 21:41, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
That's a good contribution – though I agree that ideally we want a north Walian. One thing though: when I tried to play it, it seemed to cut off the end. garik 23:59, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Downloading the file works, but playing it in the WP Java player seems to give it the cut off ending. Don't know what's at fault here, but I would guess the player. It does say it's still in beta. GreyWyvern 00:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Certainly not good enough to use as a Wikipedia article reference (chwyrndrobwll is mispronounced as chwyndrobill, and all "ll"s are pronounced the South Wales way, not the North Wales way - there's also a not-insignificant Australian accent in it). TarquinWJ (talk) 14:56, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Ll pronunciation comment
In the "Pronunciation" section, there's a bit that talks about the voiceless lateral fricative saying it "has never occurred in English or any Germanic language," but the linked page for the consonant has examples of the sound in Icelandic, Faroese, and Norwegian (or at least a dialect group within it); all North Germanic languages. Would it be better to narrow the scope of a phrase a bit, like "has never occurred in English or any other West Germanic language"? Or perhaps adjusted to just comment on the sound's existence in English without commentary on other Germanic languages? (forgot to tilde sign earlier, idk when the first comment was.) 2601:1C0:8800:FEA0:A0D7:1A5B:17CA:2C65 (talk) 20:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
Llanfair PG sign
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