|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Pedagogy article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|Pedagogy has been listed as a level-5 vital article in Society. If you can improve it, please do. This article has been rated as Start-Class.|
|WikiProject Psychology||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
|WikiProject Education||(Rated Start-class, Top-importance)|
|To-do list for Pedagogy:|
- 1 Misplaced or misnamed?
- 2 Doubt
- 3 Usage
- 4 stray content
- 5 Reference to Greek tradition
- 6 Lojban
- 7 Merge/redirect?
- 8 Incorrect Greek translation
- 9 Just for fun: a new term : Onodagogy !
- 10 Where's Psychopedagogy?
- 11 Teaching
- 12 Criticism of the concept of pedagogy
- 13 didactic transformation
- 14 verb sense correction
- 15 Alternative (pejorative) meaning of "pedagogue"
- 16 Learning theory
- 17 Proposed merger from Pedagog
- 18 Different in different countries?
- 19 Pedagogy is not the study to be a teacher in many countries like Mexico and Argentina.
- 20 The first paragraphs should be changed
- 21 Critical pedagogy
- 22 Pedagogy in the digital age
- 23 Possible copyright problem
- 24 Proposal of "List of fields and levels pedagogy is looking at / studying"
- 25 Key concepts suggestions
- 26 History incomplete
Misplaced or misnamed?
Shouldn't this fall under subtopic: Academic Degree, "In Denmark all pedagogues are trained at a series of national institutes for social educators located in all major cities. The programme is a 3.5-year academic course, giving the student the title of a Bachelor in Social Education (Danish: Professionsbachelor som pædagog).
It is also possible to earn a master's degree in pedagogy/educational science from the University of Copenhagen. This BA and MA program has a more theoretical focus compared to the above mentioned Bachelor in Social Education."? 22.214.171.124 (talk) 14:55, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
"But a pedagogue can occupy various kinds of jobs, e.g. in retirement homes, prisons, orphanages, and human resource management. These are often recognised as social pedagogues as they perform on behalf of society." With reference to English or all the world specifically? 126.96.36.199 (talk) 14:49, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Run a what links here. and one for Organizational learning, self-organization. We'll see what shows up. That might build enough context to create plenary context. I personally do not think average people like the word pedagogy because it reminds them of being put to sleep in class. But I don't see how academia can discuss scientific topics without this term or one like it. Definately this article has plenty of headroom. Quinobi 8 July 2005 15:25 (UTC)
It's interesting that this word has just come into existance. It appears that it was not used before 2000 when it suddenly started appearing in textbook reviews and was added to the American Heritage dictionary. I'll do some more research to see what I can find and return.
- It's been in widely accepted use at least since 1970 in Paulo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed. On-line American Heritage Dictionary suggests "pedagogue - A schoolteacher; an educator" was in use as an Old English word, and a quick search on Amazon showed it used by Booker T. Washington in the late 1800's (http://amazon.com/gp/reader/0252005295/ref=sib_books_ref/002-6052067-9864849?ie=UTF8&keywords=pedagogy&v=search-inside) 188.8.131.52 01:59, 9 March 2007 (UTC)GW
I doubt on the definition given here. Pedagogy is a more broad term, not for just teaching but also for education and child upbringing and the social conditions in which. See also the german, French and Dutch interwiki's. The term is more common in those languages. My English is not good enough to correct it. --Joep Zander 21:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- I believe this is, in fact, a significant difference in meaning between English and the other languages you list, especially German. (In fact, the French article looks close to the English meaning, and is a better-developed version of roughly the article I think should be here). In English, the word "pedagogy" definitely and distinctly means "teaching." Take a look at Britannica or dictionary.com. In fact, I've doubted in the past the need for a separate article here and one on education. This is a short and stubby article compared to that one, but it's definitely on the right subject, teaching as opposed to child development more broadly. -- Rbellin|Talk 21:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
Definitely Pedagogy is not the same as "education"; being the latter the subject matter of the former. At the moment, I am working in expanding this article adding a more precise definition of pedagogy that clarifies the boundaries between pedagogy and other disciplines. Unfortunatelly, as I do not have much time this may take a month or so to be finish. This expansion is being made in my pedagogy sandbox. Feel free to check it and make any suggestions or comments. Gabo Xandre (talk) 18:18, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
- This is English Wikipedia. It shouldn't make any difference to this article what the various cognates of pedagogy mean in other languages. This article should cover what pedagogy is in English-speaking countries, not what the respective cognate means in another country. Pädagogik and Pédagogie are not necessarily pedagogy, and a pædagog or pedagógus is not necessarily a pedagogue, any more than a warenhuis is a warehouse or a preservativo is a preservative. Contributors from countries where the relevant cognate has a different meaning from that of English pedagogy should write separate articles about education or child-rearing or whatever in those countries, not try to expand the meaning of the English word. J. D. Crutchfield | Talk 20:30, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
- Whatever people say, "pedagogy" and its derived words simply don't sound natural in English. If I come across its equivalents in other languages and have to translate them, I invariably look for some other term. The lack of consensus on the pronunciation is to me sufficient proof that the word means very little to most English-speakers. A shortcoming of English, perhaps, but it's a fact of life.184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2016 (UTC)
this: "Dave Weiss' definition- The art or science of teaching(.)" was in the article, doesn't belong there, but perhaps someone knows what it refers to? Brassratgirl 04:53, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Reference to Greek tradition
A claim, that "paidagogos" was bringing slave children to school is possibly not correct. If some interpreters say that he brought slave children to school, this should be refferred to. I have information that it was just an old slave who carried child's things (musical instruments etc) on the way to school and looked for him/her, because he didn't do for other work any more, but this child has not to be slave at all. --220.127.116.11 13:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the whole section on the Greek tradition, since it was entirely wrong. Jefkakk 22:31, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I noticed someone keeps removing the language reference to Lojban. Although I know nothing about it, it does point to a legitimate page and although there are a ridiculously tiny group of speakers it seems a legitimate link. Please discuss here before deleting it again! Thanks! Alex Jackl 05:59, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The article indicates that pedagogy means roughly the same as education. The education theory section of education forwards to pedagogy as its main article; this seems strange, considering the lack of meaningful content on this page so far.
- Pedagogy and education are not the same... Can you point out where in the article it indicates that? Pedagogy is rather the art or science of educating- it is the framework that defines the instructional methods being used. If you use a different pedagogy you might educate differently, take different actions, teach different facts, use different processes, and measure different things in the process of education. Pedagogy certainly deserves its own article! Alex Jackl 04:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
- In terms of language at the practical level, virtually the same. It's a very different academic field, though. Pedagogy is the study of teaching itself. Generally, it overlaps with philosophy dep't at the university setting —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 03:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Incorrect Greek translation
In the third line of the first paragraph, when the Ancient Greek etymology is given and then dissected, there is an inconsistency between the Greek and the English transliteration. The dissection of the Greek word παιδαγωγέω is shown as παίς + άγω. παίς is transliterated correctly as país, but άγω is transliterated as ági.
If the Greek is correct, then the English should read ágo, but if the English is correct (that is, the Greek word for the verb 'to lead' is ági), then the Greek should read άγι. I don't remember much of my Greek vocabulary, but from what I do remember, the dictionary form of most verbs ended in ω, meaning the English transliteration should be changed.
Can someone please confirm this? If the Ancient Greek verb 'to lead' is άγω, can we please change the English transliteration? I would do it, but again, I don't remember enough of my Greek grammar and vocab to be certain on this. Thanks. Jclu (talk) 19:08, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The correct transliteration is, indeed, "ago". The reason for this mistake presumably lies in the fact that modern Greek pronounce the Greek letter omega as "i". 22.214.171.124 (talk) 13:48, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
No, omega is pronounced "o" in modern Greek, or rather like the o in the English word "more". Maybe the mistake stems from the fact that omikron+iota is pronounced "i" (like the double e in the English word "eel"). The error is corrected anyway. But why is μικρό παιδί explained twice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 13:57, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
Just for fun: a new term : Onodagogy !
Surely there are times in every teachers career when your students drive you crazy. But, you must keep your head above the water and preserve your calmness. Now, here is this new quasi Ancient Greek word nobody ever heard that matches your thoughts well. Just think of it, and smile mysteriously...
Q: How would we name art or science of being a teacher to very hard learners?
- I second the word! dude1818 (talk) 23:45, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Just a quick FYI note - I changed the redirect on Teaching to point to this article. It was pointed at Teacher, and a user had expressed some concern that they're really two separate subjects; Teaching is about what is done, and Teacher is about who does it. The user had suggested Education. I agreed with him/her that a change should be made, but felt Education was a bit broad, covering both the teaching and the learning sides of the coin, so I picked this article instead. I also added links in this article to both Education and Teacher, to kind of make sure everyone gets to the right place. Applejuicefool (talk) 14:50, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Criticism of the concept of pedagogy
This section seems to be almost entirely an explanation of the Sudbury model of education, and its inclusion seems inappropriate, especially as it is far longer than the actual explanation of pedagogy. Surely such an explanation should be on the Sudbury model page, rather than here. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 11:42, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
After consideration, have deleted this entire section and its associated links as it is neither on the subject of pedagogy, nor does it actually make specfic criticisms of pedagogy. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 08:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
verb sense correction
Afaik, this needs to be clarified in the copy: παιδαγωγέιν (paidagōgein) is "to lead [a child]" ≠ "I lead [a child]". "I lead" a child is παιδαγωγέω (paidagōgeō) – αγωγέω: I lead. Afaik I [verb] is standard Greek practice in listing verbs. The infinitive (to ...) is English at least. 220.127.116.11 (talk) 13:40, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Alternative (pejorative) meaning of "pedagogue"
I could be coming at this from a British angle, but I feel that in British English, the word "pedagogue" has a negative connotation, meaning a "pedantic, dogmatic, and formal" person, to quote dictionary.com. In fact, the online Oxford English Dictionary has this as its first definition of pedagogue. (I remember being very intrigued when I moved to North America from the UK and heard the word used in a neutral sense!)
I once had a Czeck friend who was studying and always used the word pedagogy (as the english word), I used to stare at her blankly as this word has no meaning for me! Perhaps it is just my ignorance, but I should say that I have a teaching degree! Not once - as far as I recall - did the word pedagogy get mentioned during my training. I suspect, as others in this talk section have indicated, that "pedagogy" is used very differently in different countries, and perhaps this different usage (or frequency of use) needs to be better reflected in the article. Certainly in British English it is a rarely used and cumbersome word.
- Can I resurrect this point? The article may be about pedagogy, but a whole subsection is about "pedagogue" and I think it would only be fair to warn readers that unlike in other languages, the English word pedagogue is often negatively connotated, for which reason I personally would always avoid it when talking about a modern profession, and would instead say "educationalist", which seems to me to be identical. (If it's not identical, the article needs to go into that too.) --Doric Loon (talk) 13:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- The article does mention this already in the etymology section, at "Negative connotations (in which the word is sometimes associated with pedantry) have existed at least from the time of Samuel Pepys (1650s)." But maybe that section ("pedagogue") should mention it too. Quercus solaris (talk) 23:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
- Agreed. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 19:11, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Different in different countries?
A few users have been making edits such as this, that say "In Mexico, Argentina, Spain, Germany and more countries, Pedagogy is not the study to be a teacher or the process of teaching. In these countries, Pedagogy is the Science of Education." I'm not sure that the term is different in different countries - this is probably just a problem with vague wording, not a problem with the definition actually being different. Is there a good source for these countries having such a radically different approach? All the best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 17:29, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Pedagogy is not the study to be a teacher in many countries like Mexico and Argentina.
My name is Jonathan García, I've studied Pedagogy at the National University of Mexico (Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México - UNAM) and I am a Pedagogue cum laude and I'm gonna receive the Gabino Barreda Medal, so I can talk about the meaning of the term Pedagogy.
1. Pedagogy, in Mexico and many countries of LatinAmerica and Europe, is not the study to be a teacher, because the study to be a techer is different. It is also called "normalismo" in the spanish language and the school for teachers are differente from the school for pedagogues. Pedagogue is not a teacher.
2. In this case, Pedagogy is the science of education. The ]pedagogy is the science of education and works with other sciences like Sociology, Psichology, Philosophy, and others, to understand what is edcation and do it something to improve that. A pedagogue is not a teacher. A pedagogue is a professional who works whit a lot of resuorces to understand the education phenomen. So, a pedagogue can work in curriculum development, curriculum evaluation, training, educational research and more. A pedagogue could be a teacher if take the spetialization course for that or become a teacher about Pedagogy, but cannot be a teachor for child or youngsters without the course of specialization.
3. The meaning of the term Pedagogy is different in USA, Uk and other countries like Mexico or France or Chile. In Mexico (I am from Mexico) is the Science of education. I am a Pedagogue and I am not a teacher, I am a educational researcher. But, in Chile Pedagogy is the study to be a teacher and we can found some persons that study Pedagogy because they want to become a teacher in spanish, english, math, geography, etc.
4. This is the real meaning of Pedagogy in other countries. So the latest paragraphs (edited by an IP adress) were correct. Is correct that they said. All is correct. I want to know why you delete that because is true what they say. I wanna know too if anyone of you are a Pedagogue, because if you arent a Pedagogue you dont have the authority to edit or talk about Pedagogy cause you don't know whta is Pedagogy.
Thanks for your attention and I hope you add this specifications about Pedagogy in the Wikipedia page, cause its important that the people knows the meaning of Pedagogy out the english-language countries.
- Hi Jonathan, and thanks for posting here. It's really good to see people who are experts in their field contribute to Wikipedia, and I'm sorry that your first experience with Wikipedia has been a negative one. Now, even though I reverted your edits, I don't necessarily think that you're wrong. It's just that the standard for including material in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth - we can't just accept what editors say is true, but rather we can only accept what is written in reliable, third-party sources. (Have a look at Wikipedia's policy of verifiability for more details.) Do you have a source that says the meaning of pedagogy in the countries you list, as opposed to English-speaking countries? If you do, then I will be happy to put your claims in the article. Also, have you considered getting an account? There are many good reasons for doing so. All the best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 05:00, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, it's me, again (Jonathan García)
Well, thank you for yor answer, I think about the option to create an account in Wikipedia, but it cuold be later.
Hmm, I have many links that describes the meaning of Pedagogy in the latinamerican context. For example (all in spanish):
These links are only a examples about the complex of the meaning of Pedagogy in the latinamerican Academy. Tehere are more articles, books and resources but not in the Internet yet. But, for this moment, the links that I give you are really good for understand the theory of Pedagogy in other countries.
See you soon and good luck.
- Hmm, I see what you mean, but the danger of using foreign-language sources to describe an English word is that it's not always a one-to-one correspondence, as I'm sure you're aware. The words might be false friends, or they might be related but not quite the same. Setting aside the foreign language issue, I see that even the English-language sources do not all agree on a definition of pedagogy. If we look at dictionaries, we get the following:
- Mirriam-Webster: "the art, science, or profession of teaching"
- Cambridge dictionaries: "the study of the methods and activities of teaching"
- Webster's New World College Dictionary: "1) the profession or function of a teacher; teaching. 2) the art or science of teaching; esp., instruction in teaching methods"
- Chambers: "the science, principles or work of teaching"
- Britannica: "study of teaching methods, including the aims of education and the ways in which such goals may be achieved"
- From these I think it is clear the term is somewhat ambiguous and can be used to refer both to the profession of teaching and to the science of education. I think the question is how we express this in the article. What's your opinion on this? Regards — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 12:37, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
Hi, is me, Jonathan García, again.
Ok. My opinion is:
1. You are not a Pedagogue. Im so sorry for that because you only use the dictionary to describe a word like Pedagogy and you don't know nothing about Pedagogy (in the english or spanish language).
2. When people who don't know nothing about a specific science, talk about that science, only make mistakes and say falses sentences. This is too bad for the other people and it makes Wikipedia a very false site, with false information and a lot of mistakes. For that, Wikipedia cannot be a real resource for students and researchers.
3. the people who comes to Wikipedia to learn about something like Pedagogy (in this case) only read an incomplete idea of the term and cannot understand the meaning of the term (not at least a beat).
4. Don't answer or add something more, cause I don't gonna continue this "conversation". You are not a Pedagogue and you cannot understand what is Pedagogy (in englisgh or spanish).
But I have a question Why you talk about pedagogy if you don't know what is that? Why you do it if you aren't a pedagogue? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 01:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ouch! Sorry if I've managed to upset you. I only came to this article due to a request posted on WikiProject Education, and my involvement isn't really any deeper than that. So no, I probably don't count as a pedagogue by your standards. But that isn't really the important point here. The point is that on Wikipedia you will need to produce some sources that back up the claims you are making. Did you read the policy of verifiability that I linked to before? It's precisely because anyone can edit Wikipedia that it relies on this rule - we can't just trust advice from our editors. The Encyclopaedia Britannica can trust the advice of their editors because they are experts in their fields, but that obviously won't work on Wikipedia.
I know that you did provide sources, but I'm afraid that I don't read Spanish, so I can't cross-check them. I can ask one of our Spanish-speaking editors to check them if you like, but if there really is such a big divide between Latin American and Europe versus English-speaking countries, then I think it must be documented in English somewhere as well. I'll try and have a search for sources, but as I am not a pedagogue I obviously won't know where to look as well as you do. If you can help I would greatly appreciate it. All the best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 07:45, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
The first paragraphs should be changed
1. There is not a sufficient source supporting the definition
2. The definition is so vague that many world argue it is wrong
3. The correct definition is far more complex than the one stated.
In the UK there is a very low academic level of pedagogy compared to other Western countries (especially Scandinavia and Germany). Many countries are trying to adapt the Scandinavian level of pedagogy and thus changing the meaning of the word.
The term is not the be confused with social pedagogy, where the society (represented by social pedagogues) holds a larger part of the responsibility of the child's upbringing. http://eprints.ioe.ac.uk/58/1/may_18_09_Ped_BRIEFING__PAPER_JB_PP_.pdf
Pedagogy in Denmark
- Go ahead and update the definition - I'm sure it can be improved. At the same time, you should bear in mind the discussions above. But they don't mean that you can't be bold in your updates. There is still a lot to be done on educational topics in Wikipedia, and we could do with your help. Best — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 20:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- Also, you should feel free to update this article with your content from the pedagogue page. I've redirected the page here again, as we don't have to have an article for every single word there is. (Have a look at Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary for the principles involved here.) Let's keep our attention focused on making a great article here. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 20:28, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
- I think I might challenge it, when I have the time to put a coherent argument together. :) I was curious, so I had a look at a book on the subject, and it looks like there are several different definitions of "pedagogy". What you have added to the article appears to be the standard definition in Scandinavia, and the version we had before appears to be closer to the standard definition in the UK. At Wikipedia we can't judge which of these is "right" - we have to include them both and say that there is a disagreement. (See Wikipedia:Neutral point of view for the policy.) What this means is that we will have to change your wording at some point, although it won't be a straight reversion to the previous version. It will be a combination of your text and the previous text, and maybe other definitions of pedagogy too. Our next step is to identify the major definitions of pedagogy that appear in the scholarly literature - but of course, this takes time, so it might be a while before I get round to it. Let me know if you have any questions about the principles involved here, and I'll be happy to explain. — Mr. Stradivarius ♫ 18:34, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
The article should include more information about Critical pedagogy, for example: 1. Critical pedagogy is philosophy of education aimed at developing an awareness of freedom, ability to recognize authoritarian tendencies, and use their knowledge and power to take constructive action to correct those tendencies 2. The idea of critical pedagogy draws on ideas used in feminism, anarchism, radical democracy, and other social movements. 3. Critical pedagogy draws on students ability to critically think about their educational situation, which allows them to recognize similarities between their problems and experiences to the social contexts in which society the student is embedded. 4.Upon realizing these issues, the student can then reflect on them in an effort to find ways to correct the issues.Huai Jiang (talk) 17:16, 3 December 2012 (UTC) This is part of college course project
Pedagogy in the digital age
this article is addressing Pedagogy as directly related with teaching, but what about pedagogy of social learning? or pedagogy of autonomous learning environments? or shouldn't we talk about pedagogy when describing the design of technology enhanced learning? (VaniaGuer (talk) 20:56, 4 February 2015 (UTC))
Possible copyright problem
This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:50, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Proposal of "List of fields and levels pedagogy is looking at / studying"
I was looking to educate myself on techniques / the study to help kids quicker overcome hurdles they struggle with and focus upon. I was looking for the right word/speciality studying everything related to developing emotional skills / interaction, like iso hitting a class mate, more intelligent ways to interact. I was very impressed by a group specialising in introducing massage based techniques in classes. Anyway, so I thought to start at the article of pedagogy and find it as one of the chapters/fields in the article on pedagogy. But there's nothing. I understand such a list would form automatically as the article expands into more topics and the auto-index feature would start creating such a list. But nevertheless and as there is nothing. Shouldn't there we start such a list? Herewith an assist. Thy and if anybody can point me to links on how to facilitate kids overcome hurdles in the emotional/touching, I'd be very appreciative. --SvenAERTS (talk) 11:56, 19 June 2014 (UTC)
- Critical pedagogy
- education policy
- Educational theory
- formal education
- non formal education
- learning curve
- learning by experience
- learning theory
- Learning modalities
- Mind uploading
- Other educational forms
- Open Source, Open Hardware and Open Community Education Projects
- the Sudbury model of education
Key concepts suggestions
- Anti-oppressive education and Anti-bias curriculum are both part of/aspects of Critical pedagogy. Only Critical pedagogy should be listed.
- Suggest adding Social constructivism and Constructivism to key concepts - they are both widely accepted learning theories and central in pedagogy studies in universities in Northern Europe and particularly Scandinavia.
The section about history only deals with Herbart. Pedagogy didn't start with Herbart, even though his work was very important. I suggest that we should follow the book "History of Pedagogy" (1892) by Gabriel Compayré. It's a very good book and its copyright has expired. Here's the link: "History of Pedagogy" (1892) by Gabriel Compayré