Talk:Pakistani Taliban

Infobox

Should be exchange Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammad to Islamic state Khorasan group and Jundallah ‘s location in infobox, The latter two are part of the Islamic State and the former are not. Designated as a terrorist group by should add UNSC (https://www.securitycouncilreport.org/atf/cf/%7B65BFCF9B-6D27-4E9C-8CD3-CF6E4FF96FF9%7D/S_2021_655_E.pdf) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 45.137.148.244 (talk) 07:57, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. —Sirdog (talk) 04:58, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

the Infobox has much mistakes, it should edit like this

Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan (Pakistani Taliban Movement)
تحریک طالبان پاکستان
Flags used by the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan
Also known as	Pakistani Taliban (پاکستانی طالبان)
Leaders	Baitullah Mehsud † (2007–09) Hakimullah Mehsud † (2009–13) Fazal Hayat † (2013–18) Noor Wali Mehsud (since 2018)
Dates of operation	December 2007 – present
Allegiance	Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (self-declared, publicly rejected by IEA)
Headquarters	Eastern Afghanistan
Ideology	Wahhabism Islamic Fundamentalism Pashtunwali Sectarianism Separatism
Size	25,000 in 2014 3,000–5,000 in Afghanistan in 2019 (according to U.S. Department of Defense) 3,000-5,500 in Afghanistan in 2022 (UN intelligence estimates)
Allies	Afghan Taliban (denied by the Afghan Taliban) Islamic State Khorasan province Jundallah Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi Al-Qaeda Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan Lashkar-e-Jhangvi Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan
Opponents	China Pakistan United Kingdom United States
Battles and wars	Insurgency in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, War in Afghanistan (2001–2021), Global War on Terrorism
Designated as a terrorist group by	Canada United Kingdom United States UNSC

This is the real status. Thanks a lot 161.8.184.61 (talk) 07:13, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

References

Archive

Please move Talk:Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan/Archive 1 to Talk:Pakistani Taliban/Archive 1. Archive 1 at the top of this page is a red link at the moment and therefore almost inaccessible. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:70A2:93D3:6407:CD5D (talk) 10:30, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Now done. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:7556:FC67:98CF:2346 (talk) 09:34, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Grammar error

In the beginning of the article, where it says “The Pakistani Taliban share a common idealogy with the Afghan Taliban and have assisted them in the 2001–2021 war, but the two groups have separate operation and command structures”, “idealogy” is spelled wrong, and should be “ideology”. Tankpiggy18 (talk) 02:06, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing it out. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:05, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 July 2022

This terrorist group is Designated as a terrorist group in Pakistan by the government I request to mention it in infobox and also include this category in the article "(Category:Organisations designated as terrorist by Pakistan)" in article. 103.141.159.230 (talk) 11:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Got a more recent source that 2012? 10 years is a lot of time, those lists change frequently. I will gladly add it, just would like a more recent cite. FrederalBacon (talk) 18:11, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@FrederalBacon: Here is the official list from the Pakistan's National Counter Terrorism Authority Click on "Proscribed Organizations List". 103.141.159.230 (talk) 18:36, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for the new ref, added! FrederalBacon (talk) 20:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@FrederalBacon: Thanks and please include this category (Category:Organisations designated as terrorist by Pakistan) in article. 103.141.159.230 (talk) 03:43, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 11 October 2022

Pakistani Taliban → Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan – All five criteria under WP:TITLE should be referred to when choosing to name articles appropriately. WP:COMMONNAME notes that Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. "Pakistani Taliban" isn't really the name of any organisation, but is rather just informal shorthand for the group known as Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan. More significantly, the Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan themselves don't refer to themselves as such, and neither do the vast majority of Pakistani sources including the Urdu press. If we look at the previous move request then you can see that the user used WP:GOOGLEHITS as an argument to change the name which is not good enough to warrant the name change, because going by the same argument, a search for "Pakistani Taliban" in Urdu (پاکستانی طالبان) returns 14,600 results whereas the name "Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan" (تحریک طالبان پاکستان) returns a staggering 547,000 results in comparison. To imply that it is way off the mark would be an understatement! 103.244.173.68 (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:15, 27 October 2022 (UTC) — Relisted. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 03:02, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support It should be changed 37.111.136.28 (talk) 02:17, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:OFFICIAL.
  Also, this is not the Urdu Wikipedia, so it should not matter what the common name in Urdu language is.
  Also per WP:COMMONNAME (see #Requested_move_6_May_2022), and WP:CONCISE. Khestwol (talk) 06:08, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nominator. TTP is both official and common name, since lately some western media reports referred them as Pakistani Taliban, that doesn't warrant a name change on Wikipedia. Redirects are for that purpose. It should be changed back to its official and common name. USaamo ^(t@lk) 20:34, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support: common name begin used is TTP, which refers to the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan. War Wounded (talk) 13:03, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Khestwol. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 20:20, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support: Every person uses this name, TTP, or Tehreek-e-Taliban, not Pakistani Taliban. ImprovetheArabicUnicode (talk) 16:05, 6 November 2022 (UTC) sock strike Girth Summit _(blether) 19:17, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support per USaamo — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.111.136.217 (talk) 02:01, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

  You have already voted once. You can't vote 2nd time. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 18:45, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per WP:COMMONNAME. "Pakistani Taliban" clearly has more reliable sources than "Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan" does. --1990'sguy (talk) 05:32, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Citing searches in Urdu language is irrelevant to the discussion as this is primarily English Wikipedia and we are primarily concerned with English sources. A reasonable English speaker would be searching in English anyway. Searching for Pakistani Taliban in English in Google News shows 269,000 results while Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan has 14,4000 results. A cursory look at several search pages of both terms indicates that both terms are used in reliable sources, and interchangbly (i.e. "Org X, also known as Y", etc). Furthermore, Google Trends reveals that there is a significant amount of interest on "Pakistani Taliban" as the search term, over "Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan". Unless there is another organisation that claims to be or being reliably reported as "Pakistani Taliban", I don't see how this term is not the common name of the organisation in English. – robertsky (talk) 08:38, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

The Taliban itself has operated inside Pakistan for much of its existence, and even when it didn't, it still has a large number of Pakistani militants. "Pakistani Taliban" can refer to Pakistanis in Taliban, which is different from this article's topic. Aside from that some other Taliban-like groups in Pakistan have been called "Pakistani Taliban" even though their command structure is separate from the TTP.VR _talk 14:21, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Changing to Support on the strengths of points made by Vice regent below. – robertsky (talk) 16:01, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support as per UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL and almost all other linked wiki pages title should be Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.--Ameen Akbar (talk) 14:31, 19 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support per above. Ainty Painty (talk) 16:58, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Evidence of which name is more common remains disputed. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 16:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. I checked up on the data, and here are my conclusions:

"pakistani taliban" as a phrase has 4,91,000 results [1], compared to 73,600 results for "tehrik-i-taliban pakistan" taken as a phrase[2]. In this scenario, for a general google search, Pakistani Taliban is the much more common name, with a ratio higher than 6:1.

A criteria better preferred by editors, however, is google news - where "tehrik-i-taliban pakistan" as a phrase has 4,600 results [3], compaared to "pakistani taliban" which as a phrase has 28,900 results [4]. Here, Pakistani Taliban is again more common, achieving a ratio of over 6:1 as well.

Further, the arguments stated in favour of the move by several editors are considered invalid per Wikipedia policy - Atleast 3, and possibly 4 editors who voted here used the fact that it was an official name to support this move - This is not recognised under Wikipedia, as explained in WP:OFFICIAL. The argument by the filing editor wrongfully cites a policy meant for deletion discussions here, to discredit google search results, which are in fact quite often used to determine the common name. The arguments about Urdu search is moot since this is not the Urdu Wikipedia and will therefore rely on english sources. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:36, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I'm not able to reproduce your results. For example, you say ""pakistani taliban" which as a phrase has 28,900 results[5]". But when I click on that link it gives 15,000, not 28,900. Further, the actual number of results is much lower. There are 10 results per page, but when I click on page 17 of the results it says "Your search - "pakistani taliban" - did not match any news results", meaning there are no more than 170 results. Try visiting "https://www.google.com/search?q=%22pakistani+taliban%22&tbm=nws&start=170" (notice the "start=170"). This is a known phenomenon that is talked about at WP:HITS: "In the case of Google (and other search engines such as Bing and Yahoo!), the hit count at the top of the page is unreliable and should usually not be reported." VR _talk 15:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support the name change. Google search results are NOT a determining factor in outfit's name popularity. Any search result having a mention of Pakistan and let's say Afghan Taliban or any other Taliban faction (which are separate from TTP) will also come in results of Pakistani Taliban. Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan may have lower search results but it comes with precise results and represents official and common name of the outfit. WP:PRECISION Muneebll (talk) 16:03, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

  @Muneebll: Educate me please, what other Taliban factions are there operating in Pakistan and have English Wikipedia articles? – robertsky (talk) 16:12, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

  The article has a mention of various breakaway and allied factions with TTP but the issue I raised with the current name is that Taliban when used internationally is understood to be Afghan Taliban but same when used in context of Pakistan may refer to the any of militants group operating in Pakistan adhering to Salafi-Deobandi ideology. Even as per layman understanding in the country, Taliban applies to all these militant groups. So having the suggested title will precisely refer to the intended outfit. Muneebll (talk) 12:50, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Theres nothing wrong with the search results, your objections are incorrect - Ref my post below.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 21:00, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support It clearly has a title. When people search for "Pakistani Taliban" they are actually searching for Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.Cheel (talk) 23:11, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support the move as search result data given above is useless when there are multiple spellings used for the group's name. The article should be renamed to Tehreek-e-Taliban or Tehrik-e-Taliban. Oriental Aristocrat (talk) 00:38, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: A late suggestion to drop the "Pakistan" entirely in the suggested target just appeared. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 23:15, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

• Comment Muneeb does not seem to have understood what my google search data suggests - When using quotations, searches are limited to exact phrases . Therefore, the results are not for articles with "Pakistan" and "taliban" in them - They are for articles with "Pakistani Taliban", rendering his objection moot. The data analysis is completely valid, and as the search data suggests, the title should not be changed.

Note for closer - WP:NOTAVOTE is extremely necessary here, due to a complete lack of policy or data based arguments by those arguing for the title to be changed. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 21:00, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Note for CapnJackSp and any others thinking that way... the closer is unlikely to be unaware of the closing instructions, nor of their duty to assess consensus independently of the views of involved editors such as our ourselves. Andrewa (talk) 23:41, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

I know :) . Left that note just in case the closer overlooked, as sometimes (though rarely) does happen. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 02:12, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I in my vote above gave valid reasons in support of suggested move. Numerical data of Google search results is not determining factor here because it's not precise and also the most of the results mention the official title either in headlines, intro or body to identify the exact outfit being talked about so why not have that title instead on Wikipedia.

Secondly current title is vague and can refer to any of Salafi-Deobandi militant group operating in the country so for that too we need a precise title and the title in suggested move happens to be official, common and precise title of the outfit. WP:PRECISE Muneebll (talk) 16:55, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. There is nothing ambiguous or inaccurate about the current title. Andrewa (talk) 02:28, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
• Relist comment. Almost closed this, and if I had, my decision would have been "no consensus". Per the policy and the closing instructions that would have meant returning this article to its long-term, stable title, Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (since 2008), as proposed. That title was only changed in May of this year to the current name, so consensus for the current title is not in my opinion strong enough to warrant keeping it, but I could be wrong. Decided to relist for a not-unprecedented third time, and to pass this closure to another editor, preferably a trusted and experienced admin. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 03:16, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:USEENGLISH. Johnbod (talk) 22:51, 8 November 2022 (UTC)
• Support. WP:COMMONNAME would have been a solid argument for a name, except in this case "Pakistani Taliban" s ambiguous. Our policy says "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." The term "Pakistani Taliban" doesn't always refer to "Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan" (TTP).
  • "Pakistani Taliban" can refer to Pakistani members of the Taliban. For example, this report by Human Rights Watch uses the term "Pakistani Taliban" fighters to refer to Pakistanis being recruited into the Taliban. Or this article in The New Yorker uses the term "non-Pakistani Taliban" to refer to non-Pakistani citizens inside the Taliban. Or, from International Journal of Middle East Studies[6], "Pakistani presence among the Taliban is crucial to the identity of the Taliban, Matinuddin does not tell us how many of the Taliban fighters are Pakistani Taliban".
  • "Pakistani Taliban" can also refer to various Taliban-like groups in Pakistan either individually or collectively.
    • Individually there are many groups that have been called "Pakistani Taliban". This journal article points out that "Harkat activists are known as the Pakistani Taliban" (referring to Harkat-ul-Mujahideen). This article in The Diplomat has a byline of "Why are the Pakistani Taliban are targeting these specific groups?" to refer to attacks by the Jamaat-ul-Ahrar (the article was published in 2016, at the time the organization was still separate from TTP).
    • An example of collective referral is this source by Stanford University that states "The Tehrik-i-Taliban is the largest militant organization in Pakistan that operates under the larger umbrella of the Pakistani Taliban."VR _talk 14:12, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
• I also want to caution against using google search results to determine WP:COMMONNAME for a few reasons. First, see caveats at WP:GOOGLETEST (I explained above how a page that reported 15,000 hits had no more than 170 links, also see WP:HITS). Second, most sites on google aren't RS. Third, hits for "Pakistani Taliban" aren't necessarily referring to the topic of this article. In fact, they might not be referring to any topic at all. For example, "Pakistani-Taliban relations" 1,700 hits is used to refer to relations between Pakistan and the Taliban.VR _talk 15:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)
• Comment: I note that the article lead currently reads Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (Urdu/Pashto: تحریکِ طالبان پاکستان, lit. 'Student Movement of Pakistan', abbr. TTP), commonly known as the Pakistani Taliban (پاکستانی طالبان) which seems out of process. According to the MOS it should match the current title, which is Pakistani Taliban until and unless this move proceeds. I haven't checked to see when this was done. Andrewa (talk) 15:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:OFFICIAL and WP:COMMONNAME. We rely on the coverage provided by reliable sources in English language. What happens in a non-English Wikipedia site is clearly not relevant here. Segaton (talk) 19:35, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The policy requisitions the use of commonly recognizable names for article titles as determined by usage in reliable English-language sources (the IP cite the "Urdu press" but they may not meet our standards for determining common usage), and a web based search overwhelmingly illustrates the magnitude of usage of the term "Pakistani Taliban" in reliable English-language sources for the conglomerate called the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (for instance [7]; this being a topic of academic interest and frequently making the news, the sources are largely news based or scholarly in nature and thus reliable). IP's reasoning for name change that "Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan themselves don't refer to themselves as such" is thus misguided and emanates from a lack of appreciation of how titles are decided on Wikipedia. Also corroborating the results from web are more tailored results on Google News from news sources ([8] vs [9]). They clearly crystallize the disproportionate difference between the two search terms. A search on Google books likewise yields a laundry list of books that advert to the conglomerate as "Pakistani Taliban".[10] JSTOR search similarly returns over a thousand results for Pakistani Taliban, whereas barely over a hundred for TTP. These scholarly journals and books (e.g., [11][12][13][14][15]) all advert to the conglomerate as Pakistani Taliban in their titles, and their use as such is emphatic, unambiguous and incontrovertible. MBlaze Lightning (talk) 20:34, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Two of the sources you provided actually show that "Pakistani Taliban" is not always synonymous for "Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan".

This source you provided says "Tehri-i-Taliban Pakistan, the banned umbrella group of the Pakistani Taliban, offered peace negotiations..."

This source you provided says "several militant groups calling themselves the Pakistani Taliban began to carry out attacks within Pakistan. In late 2007, these groups coalesced into one entity, the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, and claimed allegiance with the Taliban organization."

WP:COMMONNAME tells us to avoid ambiguous names "even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources".VR _talk 22:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

What to do with the redirect

Question to those proposing or supporting this move... what do you propose for the destination of Pakistani Taliban? If that term is ambiguous and the current article is not the Primary Topic (about which I am not convinced), should it be a DAB? Andrewa (talk) 15:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

If moved, maybe a DAB with all Taliban-affliated Pakistan-based groups, and also as what @Vice regent had indicated, list of Pakistani members of the Taliban. – robertsky (talk) 16:28, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

If made into a dab page, here's a gentle reminder that all entries should begin with the page title, "Pakistani Taliban", either linked to a section or appropriate redirect, or with one blue link to an explanatory article that uses the phrase. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 16:50, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

or set index? – robertsky (talk) 21:08, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

• "Pakistani Taliban" can redirect to this article, with a hatnote pointing readers to Pakistani Taliban (disambiguation). This is similar to how heart attack redirects to Myocardial infarction (heart attack is by the WP:COMMONNAME but it is ambiguous) but we also have Heart attack (disambiguation). And the dab page also redirects readers to other pages that don't begin "heart attack", such as cardiac arrest.VR _talk 22:20, 12 November 2022 (UTC)