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Free software screenshot replacement ideas
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:: [[WP:VOTE]] is evil. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 02:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
:: [[WP:VOTE]] is evil. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 02:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

== Free software screenshot replacement ideas ==

Ok, I am working on the [[Column (typography)]] article and I thought it would be neat to have a screen shot from MS Word of the default page layout when a user choose 3 columns. But then I got to thinking about fair use and all that jazz. So I was wondering if there was any open source document publishing software that doesn't have a non-free copyright on the software's GUI. I think there may be a fair use rationale on using MS Word because it is arguably the most commonly used application, however free is always better, right? So does anyone have any idea how I could show a screenshot of a multicolumn layout inside of a desktop publishing software interface and also make that image copyleft in some regard?-[[User:Andrew c|Andrew c]] 02:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:50, 16 June 2007

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Criterion 8 imbroglio

The two or three reversions over the past week need to be aired here to avoid an edit war—the last thing we need.

Here are the versions:

Original

Significance. Non-free content contributes significantly to an article (e.g., it identifies the subject of an article, or illustrates specific, relevant points or sections in the text); it does not serve a purely decorative purpose. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational or user interface elements is normally regarded as decorative.


The "strengthened" version. I was concerned that the tone was quite different to the non-instructional, indicative tone that was established by consensus in the major copy-edit of last month; in particular, "must" and "should" were removed from the criteria, upon my argument that a friendly, this-is-how-it-is tone is more likely to garner compliance among Wikipedians, is more in keeping with its mission, and matches similar changes to other major texts over the past year, including the featured criteria :

Significance. Non-free media must contribute significantly to an article. It must increase the reader's understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. It should be the case that if the article is lacking the image, it significantly impairs the reader's ability to understand the topic. Otherwise, such usage is decorative and is not allowed. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational or user interface elements is normally regarded as decorative.


My edit of that strengthened version. In addition to making the tone consistent with that of the other criteria, it rationalised the wording, in keeping with the need to keep the criteria as short and plain as possible.

Significance. Non-free content contributes significantly to an article. It increases the reader's understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot; without it, the reader's ability to understand the topic is significantly impaired. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries and navigational and user-interface elements is usually not significant in these terms.


My compromise edit today of the second reversion back to the "strengthened" version. I've reluctantly added three negatives. The main point is covered in two sentences, not three, and the decorative thing is covered in one sentence, not two.

Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.

I hope this is acceptable to all. Please discuss it here rather than reverting at the moment. Tony 01:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC) [reply]


Shouldn't it say something like, if an image is necessary to the understanding of the topic? (I tend to use the word vital in discussion, but some might thing that's too strong of a word). -- Ned Scott 01:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC) [reply]

I do wonder whether the wording is now too strong (restrictive); I'm not an expert on that aspect. Tony 02:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • That was in fact my goal in the strong wording. The "original" version was far too vague, giving wide variations in interpretation. This criterion needs to make it clear that we don't use non-free images just because we can or because they're only marginally related to the subject, but only when they are required in order to understand the article better. Two of my recent IFD deletions are undergoing DRV right now just because of this wide latitude in interpretation (here and here). howcheng {chat} 17:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So guys, I'm presuming that the current version is strong enough ... Please say if it's not. Tony 14:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, this version is too strong. I already previously objected to the addition of the sentence about fair use images in lists and galleries being "normally decorative" as not supported by consensus. Now the wording has been changed to indicate such use is "unacceptable", implying no exceptions, ever. I'm sorry, but just because a certain number of admins wish to push through this agenda and enforce policy in this way does not make it consensus (and thus does not make it policy, per WP:CONSENSUS). This is a major change in policy and needs wider community input before being accepted as policy. And a discussion on this talk page that is unanswered in 5 days does not constitute consensus. DHowell 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Except that image licensing policy is specifically exempted. And you know what would happen if licensing policy were put up to consensus-style polls etc -- Wikipedia would be rampant with copyright violations in a vast majority of articles. howcheng {chat} 00:00, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Except that we are not talking about allowing copyright violations. We are talking about items which are legally allowed under fair use, which makes them not copyright violations. And there is nothing in the Foundation licensing policy that says images in lists and galleries are prohibited. Therefore their use or not in aritcles is purely an editorial decision, which is a valid consensus issue. 16:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
The current version is enough. I'm assuming we are already in an area where the image is legal because fair use applies. It's silly to go further to say that Wikipedia should not use images where words alone will do. Not unless we've decided it's a text only thing. As an example, you can talk about a company without picturing its logo. So words would work. Hence the new statement would ban use of corporate logos in articles. But most websites, newspapers, etc., including WP, that can reproduce images will show the logo as a way of identifying the company. In that context reproducing the logo is fair a visual impression to go along with the article so that it is appealing and sticks in the reader's mind. Wikidemo 23:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a non-expert, but already I'm feeling that the recast version on the policy page needs to be revisited. Can we have suggestions of actual text for Criterion 8, possibly by pasting one of the blue texts above and modifying it? Tony 00:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See below for my suggestion, which is simply to remove "lists, galleries" from the current text. Per Wikidemo, who is a copyright lawyer by the way, the language "It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot" should probably be changed or removed as well. DHowell 16:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Is 80 Percent of a guy's head better than non-free content?

Loving today's main page image. Maybe, at some point in the future, the remaining 20% of his head will become free content. Shouldn't we insist on head completeness? (WP:100PERCENTOFHEAD, anybody?) Sudden thought: Maybe this is the perfect job for Wikipe-tan?  ;) Jenolen speak it! 06:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Glad you are getting used to this wild concept of freedom ;) -- ReyBrujo 18:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that guy was standing next to some cosplayer who obscured the side of his head. I thought it best to edit her out altogether.--Pharos 23:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Given that "that guy" isn't even the subject of today's featured article, it's not that big a deal. It's just odd that we illustrate "Today's Featured Article" with images of things that aren't the subject of, well, Today's Featured Article. Jenolen speak it! 23:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, find a better way to illustrate it that is free content and we'll go with that instead. --Cyde Weys 17:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's just odd that Wikipedia would "feature" content that it, uh, can't feature. It's like having Today's Featured Article on Jupiter... and showing a picture of Saturn... 'cuz, it's a planet, too. It doesn't make sense to "feature" something, then not show that thing. As for the whole "free content" thing, I think it's odd that there's one standard for Wikipedia as a whole - where copyrighted material is certainly allowed -- and another standard for the main page. Just one of the many quirks of Wikiworld, and a self-evident limitation of the project. Maybe the main page should include a "why we contain copyrighted material inside, but don't show it here" disclaimer? You know, push the mission? Make sure people understand that "free" is a more important part of our five pillars than the "encyclopedia" part? Just a thought... Jenolen speak it! 08:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Odd that I should see this here...for some reason I was at that page the other day, and I didn't even realize it was a featured article. Strange, strange... --Edwin Herdman 08:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, good news! On Today's featured article, we made it all the way to 90% of a guy's head! And he's even the subject of the article! Well done!  ;) Jenolen speak it! 06:56, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Make it 60%. That image isn't excatly, as professionals call it, sharp. :P The Merciful 09:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Policy change for logos

Many logos have been tagged for deletion because they were missing a fair use rationale, in the same way that many album covers have been. I propose that the requirement for a detailed fair use rationale for logos be eliminated to keep Wikipedia from losing even more logos originally uploaded without a detailed fair use rationale. And then I would like to see the people who tagged these logos for deletion asked to review their tagging and to restore the logos that were being used properly all along. --Eastmain 06:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Logos are almost always acceptable for use on an article about the company. But not, for example, at a high resolution. Or on other articles. Like every other unfree image on Wikipedia, logos should have a fair use rationale for every use. ShadowHalo 07:18, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed... but that rationale should be part of a template. Those few exceptions where they might be improperly used would occur no more often with a templated rationale than with a non-templated one. --tjstrf talk 07:23, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there ought to be a templated per-use standard rationale, for when per-page use falls into a standard class, eg album covers, media product covers, logos... I have requested Betacommandbot to stop, at least for images in categories where this is likely to apply, until such standard boilerplate per-use fair-use rationale templates/text are available.
When per-page use falls into a standard class, it is far preferable for templated text to be used, which is (a) standardised, and (b) can have instances aggregated by "what links here"; rather than have a multitude of different homebrew, possibly legally insufficient, texts added willy-nilly. Jheald 14:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We are discussing a similar matter with the album covers, I guess its outcome can be used as a precedent, but it is not worth doing two discussions in two different places about the same thing. Check here. -- ReyBrujo 18:51, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that logos, if only used in the article about the organization they visually represent (usu. in an infobox), are basically going to be a fair use. My concern is, however, that editors will begin to think that they simply can add the non-free image copyright tag and be done with it. That is false; non-free images also need information about the copyright holder, why our use of the image does not affect the exclusive right held by the copyright to reproduce or authorize the reproduction of the logo, etc. -- I just don't think that this kind of information could easily be represented with a mechanical tag ... but then again, I kind of doubt it is being added by the disgruntled editors who get a message saying an image they uploaded is a candidate for speedy deletion. --Iamunknown 18:57, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look, let's be honest about what's happened here: Betacommand, and the Betacommandbot, have created a cycle of work. At the end of the day - nobody is saying the album covers are being used improperly, just that they're tagged improperly, and that improper tagging was tolerated for the last, oh, ever. Same thing with logos -- they're not copyright violations, they're not trademark violations, but they are, apparently, not appropriately sourced/justified, according to formerly non-enforced Wikipedia policies.

So great. So thousands of logos and album covers get deleted. And thousands of editors re-upload them, and fill in the "unique" rationales. It's all just a huge waste of time and resources, but it does follow policy, and instead of changing policy to suit the reality (say, by using a common-sense rationale that follows both the law and Wikipedia policy on the logo boilerplate), "we" (read - a very few skilled bot writers and fair use extremists) would rather us all go through this big cycle.

Remember - at the end of the day, the same number of album covers and the same number of logos are going to be on Wikipedia. They'll just have gone through a "process cycle" of deletion, outrage, re-uploading, and tweaking to the rationale. It's all a big mess about nothing; there's no threat to the project, either legally or from a policy purity standpoint. And when the dust settles, it'll all be the same as it is now, except that Betacommand and the Betacommand bot will likely find some other part of the complex and every-changing fair use/non-free content world to attack. And they'll be another outrage. And another cycle of deleting and reuploading... And slowly, surely, as the process gets more and more gummed up, and more frustrating, Wikipedia will ... uh ... become more popular? Or more useful? Peace rules the universe, love rules the stars, and copyrighted content is finally, irrevocably shaken free from the shackles of its creation and creators?

At least, I think that's the plan. I'm not really sure.  ;) Jenolen speak it! 19:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Since there can't be a justification for the vast majority of uses, it's likely there will be significantly less fair use images on Wikipedia. Understand; some language wikipedias have NO fair use at all. A shocking thing has happened. They've managed to struggle in the face of this adversity and still produce quality work. :) --Fair use extremist 21:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Interesting! We may be "going German" after all! Or, did I miss something? I thought fair use was still permitted on the English-language Wikipedia? (Not for long, says my betting money...) And how do you reconcile the idea of eliminating fair use, with the primary mission of Wikipedia - to produce an encyclopedia of the highest quality? WP:ENC, and all.... Jenolen speak it! 22:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • The primary mission of Wikipedia is to produce a free encyclopedia. --Durin 22:35, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Which is odd, because I thought WP:ENC makes very clear, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a social movement to create free content. My understanding was, the creation of free content is the mission of the foundation; Wikipedia, though, still permits fair use and other uses of copyright material. That, though, seems to be changing... Jenolen speak it! 23:45, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • See Wikipedia:About, the first line. It says "Wikipedia...is a multilingual, web-based, free content encyclopedia project." --Durin 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Actually, there's some good reading there. The site is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation, which is largely uninvolved in daily operation and writing. Uh, or not. And secondly, the percentage of that page devoted to Wikipedia's encyclopedia mission, as opposed to Wikipedia's free content mission, is about running about 95% to 5% in favor of "encyclopedia." Given the importance of free/libre evangelism 'round these parts, you'd think the whole free content thing would rate more than a passing mention on the "about" page, but hey, what do I know? Jenolen speak it! 09:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Thomas and use of non-free images

May I open by apologising for the length of this posting, but I am feeling rather over-whelmed as a result of this enforcement of policy and need all the help I can get.)

I can understand the rationale behind the current crack-down on non-free images, but it would be good if there is a degree of tolerance applied (regarding deletion of images, modification of articles, etc) while editors catch-up with the huge workload that has now been put before us...

In particular, one of the wiki-projects in which I participate is faced with a small mountain of remedial work. Now, as the only project member who seems to be currently active and keeping an eye on the Project articles, I need some serious guidance of how best to comply with the guidelines. As I am not supposed to be editing WP as a full-time job, suddenly being confronted with this additional workload is nearly enough for me to throw-in the towel and quit WP altogether.

Background:
WikiProject Thomas was established about 18 months ago to tackle the vast number of articles associated with The Railway Series of books by the Rev. W. Awdry and the spin-off TV series Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends (aka Thomas and Friends). One of the main tasks was to reduce the number of individual articles describing characters, most of which would never exceed stub size. With that in mind, all the articles, with the exception of about 10 central characters, were gathered together in a set of grouped character pages describing major and minor characters, etc. (There are about ten of these articles too.)

After these 18 months, the pages are (or were) largely in a state appropriate for an encyclopaedia and were fairly stable, although usually requiring at least one vandal-reversion somewhere daily.

Use of images:
'Fair use' images were used extensively throughout these articles to enable the reader to quickly identify each character. 'A picture tells a thousand words' and all that, and was in line with countless other articles describing fictional characters. For the TV series characters, screenshots were used; while for the book series characters, we felt justified in using images of the book covers to identify specific characters. (Which also meant that a substantial number of the book characters had no illustration at all.) The page that grouped the books themselves included a cover image for each book -- again for identification purposes (the same cover illustrations have been used for up to 60 years).

In all cases, the number of images was kept to the absolute minimum needed to identify the characters, which is surely the need in an encyclopaedia. They were not merely decorative (whatever that means), although they did substantially improve the appearance of the pages and the ease in which specific information was to be found.

An additional problem is that the images have been uploaded by a number of users, over a long period of time, who may not now be active on WP. (I have not uploaded any of the free-use images, but feel that as a project member I have a care-taking responsibility for the images used within the Project articles, and we're probably looking at upwards of 100 images to add fair-use rationales to.)

Where to go from here?:
Q1: is it now WP policy that screenshots may not be used to 'illustrate' an article, for the purposes of identifying a character? If it is, then all the screenshots will have to go, from all articles, everywhere.

Q2: If screenshots are allowed, do they need a particular level of explanation for them to be permitted? What sort of explanation is required? Episode title? Frame number? Date of original transmission?

Q3: There is a requirement for 'critical commentary' about the image used. What does this mean? What sort of description of a picture is necessary to meet this requirement. (This particularly applies to the book cover images)

Q4: Assuming use of the images is allowed, is there any way that 'grouped character pages' may be permitted in some form? (I notice that the 'list of pages with lots of free use images' has a cut-off point of ten images on a page. Would it be permissible to have a page with 10 images present? -- it would reduce the workload if the pages could be divided into 'tens' rather than individual characters.) If split into individual pages then we start running into notability issues which we thought we had avoided

Q5: With respect to fair-use rationales, all the images will have very similar entries, with only minor detail differences. Would it be permissible to include a template to each image, initially identifying the essential common features, and eventually allowing for specific information to be applied individually?

Conclusion:
Again I apologise for the length of this submission. Hopefully the above background and questions adequately reflect my current position, but the underlying question is What is the minimum amount of work needed to preserve the 100s of hours of Project effort gone into trying to shape these as quality pages for WP and still comply with WP policies?.

EdJogg 10:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Responses:
  • Q1 Answer: Screenshots or bookcovers used to identify a character are inappropriate. If the screenshot is being used to discuss that character's role within that episode, or the bookcover is being used in an article about the book, then you're ok. For example, using an album cover that depicts an artist to illustrate the artist on that artist's article is inappropriate. Using the album cover on an article about the album can be appropriate.
  • Q2 Answer: Read a fair bit of this page above; quite a number of people disagree on what is allowable or not.
  • Q3 Answer: My response to Q1 answers this partially. Essentially, and this folds into Q2 as well, simply displaying a bookcover on a book's article may not be appropriate. Let's say there's ten editions of a book. You chose third edition's bookcover. Why? How does that particular selection contribute to the article? Is the cover discussed in the article? See answer to Q2 as well; this is debated.
  • Q4 Answer: The list of fair use overuse pages having 10 is an arbitrary cutoff. It's not a rule. The cutoff was done because the list with >4 and <9 was adding too much overheard to the page to rapidly process. Thus, I segmented out that list into User:Durin/Fair Use Overuse smaller. The general case is that an article with dozens of images depicting dozens of characters on a "list of..." type page is generally not acceptable. There may be exceptions.
  • Q5 Answer: Perhaps, but "eventually" is insufficient; images without proper rationales are subject to deletion.
  • I understand your desire to protect the efforts that went into the creation of these pages. But, please understand that we must abide by these policies. Plenty of people argue quite vociferously about our fair use policies. I've personally been verbally assaulted dozens of times over efforts by me to enforce these policies. Lots of other people have similarly been assaulted. Despite all the rancor, despite all the hatred spewed by some at people trying to enforce these policies, despite many efforts to 'reform' the policies into something more accepting of fair use, the policies have NOT changed in such a way to more liberally support fair use image use on Wikipedia.
  • Please note the Wikipedia logo in the upper left of this page. It says "Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia" Fair use images are not free. Thus, we strive to limit their use, per Foundation resolution and our policies. Note that most other language Wikipedias simply prohibit fair use PERIOD. Start with the second largest, the German Wikipedia. No fair use allowed there at all. Yet, the project succeeds. --Durin 15:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Regarding the template, it'd probably be best to avoid simply adding a template. I would recommend instead creating a template that you can subst. For example, you could make a template for album covers being used in the article about the album, which takes the title as the parameter, and simply subst for images where it applies. ShadowHalo 15:20, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • ...which is against the position that each image use has a unique description for its rationale. See multiple debates about this that boilerplate text can not supplant fair use rationales. --Durin 15:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • What I'm suggesting is that the template be used to add the rationales quicker, not that the rationales not be included at all. If several images are being used in the same manner, it's completely feasible to use fair use rationales that only have minor differences. ShadowHalo 15:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • [edit conflict] Which is exactly where I'm coming from. The reasons for wanting to use a template are:
            (i) to urgently identify the images as 'wanted', with me as a contact for queries in place of the original editor who may no longer be contactable;
            (ii) to provide a large quantity of the (common) rationale information immediately;
            (iii) from (i) and (ii), aiming to prevent deletion of the images before I've had a chance to edit each one in detail (remembering that there are many to edit); and
            (iv) to subsequently use info-box style parameters to set default values which can be over-ridden locally as required.
            Your comments would suggest that (iv) is not permissible under any circumstances. And my use of 'eventually' meant 'within a few weeks', bearing in mind that I do have a life beyond Wikipedia! (I don't think that a month's grace is unreasonable, given that the images have been around for some time and were uploaded when such conditions were not enforced.) EdJogg 16:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Many images would have exactly the same rationales. For example almost all album covers used on pages about that album and computer game box covers on articles about the game. --Apoc2400 15:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Howcheng, those two examples are perfect demonstrations of what I've been referring to. Simply displaying a fair use image on an article about that thing doesn't make it fair use. If it did, we could have every fair use image here be fair use because...well, it is! No further explanation needed. --Durin 16:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Those two are special cases. They comment on the album art specially. The vast majority of pages about albums do not. Do you mean that most pages about albums should not show the album cover? --Apoc2400 16:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • That is one stance in this debate, yes. Fair use images are, by definition, not free. Wikipedia is the free content encyclopedia. --Durin 16:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Non-free content is allowed on the English Wikipedia. The other language Wikipedias are not as large and not as prevalent in popular consciousness as the English language Wikipedia is. Having the image of the album cover increases understanding and adds significant educational value to pretty much every album article. As for articles about albums with critical commentary about the music on the album but not the cover art, I think it's 10 times more reasonable to have an image of the cover art on the page about the album than it is to upload 20-second audio clip of the album on every album page. --Strangerer (Talk) 01:14, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Why remove images from discographies?

This is the stupidest decision that anyone has ever made. What record company in their right mind is going to want the covers removed from discographies? I think you will find that not a single one would want to see them taken off. It is free advertising for them. So why remove it to protect them if they aren't going to care, and are actually going to want the images there. Someone hasn't got their head on straight. Get some common sense and put the images back. Nettyboo 12:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is not record companies issuing cease and desist letters. Wikipedia allows others to reuse its content, so we should not be using copyrighted media where they are not needed. ShadowHalo 12:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Who says they are not needed? The images enhance the articles. Again, the record companies won't mind, so why not have them in? The record companies won't mind if others reuse them either. Nettyboo 12:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia allows commercial reuse of its content, and I'm sure a record company would like that. And "enhancing the article" does not mean that it is necessary. It'd enhance articles if we could include video clips of copyrighted films. But we don't do that in an effort to minimize our use of unfree media. ShadowHalo 13:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We've already repeatedly hashed this out with the decision being no fair use galleries. Discographies showing album covers for every release falls well within this definition. --Durin 14:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You still aren't convicing me. As having covers in discographies doesn't upset anyone in any way and only serves to annoy people who have put lots of effort into making Wikipedia better, I think there should be a proper vote, not just a bunch of people giving their opinion and someone taking it upon himself to decide. Who's with me? Nettyboo 14:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good points about polls being evil. Judging by the amount of people who've suddenly become very upset when they discovered their discographies are being ruined, not a lot of people even knew that the matter was under consideration. I propose it goes to decision again. Nettyboo 14:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is no agreement on this matter, so please do not present it as such. Badagnani 14:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
[edit conflict] "Their discographies are being ruined" Please see WP:OWN. Anyway, discuss all you want. It's very unlikely that a list of album/single covers will be considered "narrow limits" (see this, which is not up for discussion). ShadowHalo 14:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, there clearly isn't. What there is is agreement among the small number of editors who believe the covers should not be used. Whether you believe those editors are the only ones "that count" is immaterial. Do not present that as agreement among WP editors, because as you've seen here and elsewhere, reasoned objections, from many long-time, productive, and thoughtful editors, have been raised consistently. Badagnani 14:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it so unlikely? Your link tells me that a whopping 7 people passed this thing. No doubt only 10 people even knew it was up for discussion. If you are going to make such a change to Wikipedia policies, how about letting people know about it first. Now that we do know, let's have a proper discussion. Nettyboo 14:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Those seven people are from the Wikimedia Foundation. No amount of consensus here will override their decision. ShadowHalo 14:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If you want it changed take it up with the wikimedia foundation board. —— Eagle101Need help? 14:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Those seven people are on the foundation:Board of Trustees of the Wikimedia Foundation (that runs Wikipedia). There are only seven members of the Board currently. Kotepho 14:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The link says nothing about album covers being deleted from Wikipedia. The covers cannot be replaced, and there are no C&D orders from the record companies, so they are fine to use. Badagnani 14:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The link doesn't state that we can use anything that's not replaceable and for which C&D orders aren't coming. It states, "Such EDPs must be minimal. Their use, with limited exception, should be to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works." The consensus I've seen is that discographies with album/single covers are not "narrow limits". ShadowHalo 14:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A living person can (often) be re-photographed but album covers are unique -- not replaceable. Please get back to creating great articles instead of depleting them under the misinterpretation of a Board ruling, thanks. Badagnani 14:52, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't agree more. By the way, where is this "consensus" you've seen, ShadowHalo? Nettyboo 14:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • People, as I noted this has been hashed out before. Those of you in support of having articles stuffed full of fair use pictures are fighting a battle that is not only a losing battle, it's already been lost. This was fought, very vociferously I might add, over fair use images in lists of episodes. The disagreement over that is essentially the same as the one regarding discographies. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2007-05-07/Fair use for the recent history of that dispute. ShadowHalo is correct; MINIMAL use is what is expected of us by the Wikimedia Foundation, and their voice on this IS gospel. Having an article with dozens upon dozens of fair use images in no way can be construed as minimal. This has been furiously debated before, as noted above. You aren't going to change things by attempting to convince the people who are explaining this to you. If you want this to change, contact the Wikimedia Foundation. --Durin 15:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't bring up other, unrelated issues when album covers are what is being discussed here. Your faulty interpretation of a Board policy does not a consensus make, period. Please direct your efforts to creating great content, not depleting our articles. Badagnani 15:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The issues are closely related, nearly identical. I'm sorry you disagree with these decisions. As I noted, your best course of action is to address the Wikimedia Foundation regarding your concerns and attempt to gain clarification from them as to whether it is permissible to have dozens of fair use images per article as you desire to have. Complaining to the people responding to you here will not achieve your goals. --Durin 15:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Badagnani, please stop implying that people who don't believe album covers should be used in discographies aren't also improving articles. ShadowHalo 15:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did not state that all such editors do not contribute meaningful content here at Wikipedia, but, in my experience, in carefully scrutinizing the edit histories of the most avid deleters, I see no new articles nor meaningful content created. I wish that were not so. Badagnani 17:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A fair use rationale for the inclusion of album cover thumbnails in discographies

I think album covernails are permissible in discographies, per WP:FAIR 1 to 10, provided that:

  • The band is sufficiently notable to merit a separate discography
  • The discography is a detailed survey of the band's output, such as eg The Beatles discography, with detailed track listings, release dates, chart history etc, etc -- not just a bald list of albums.

For such a case I would offer the following specific fair use statement of need:

These images are included as part of a survey of The Beatles' musical publications. Album covers represnt the primary means of visual identification of a band's work, and are an important aspect of its cultural contribution presence. These images therefore represent a significant contribution to the survey of the body of work, and contribute to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The taking is appropriately limited to that required for the purpose, and no other substitute images would be appropriate.

I would also include the following statements of no harm, emphasising the complementary rather than substitutive nature of the inclusion of the thumbnail with respect to a normal exploitation of the original work:

The inclusion of the images here is claimed as fair use because:
  • They illustrate educational articles about the band's body of work
  • The images represent the primary means of the visual identification of this work.
and for each image:
  • It is a low resolution image.
  • The image is only a small portion of the commercial product.
  • It is not replaceable with an uncopyrighted or freely copyrighted image of comparable educational value.
  • The use of the cover will not affect the value of the original work or limit the copyright holder's rights or ability to distribute the original.
  • The use of the cover illustration is in good faith, and its inclusion enhances the quality of the article without reducing the commercial value of the work from which it was drawn.

Such a usage fits in entirely with both the letter and the spirit of items 1-10 of the Policy.

@Durin: the key point of difference between a discography with a detailed survey of the band's body of work on the one hand, and a gallery of photographs, specifically a gallery of fair use images of people, on the other, is the complementary rather than substitutive nature of the usage (to use the terminology of Judge Posner in Ty Inc vs Publications International before the Seventh Circuit). A detailed encyclopedic survey of the body of work of the band serves to promote interest in the band, and potentially increase the commercial value of the original work (complementary use), rather than being a substitute for the original images (substitutive use).

On these grounds I argue that images in the Beatles discography should stay, as should images in other discographies if they meet these criteria. Jheald 16:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The images at The Beatles discography should stay. Their use falls within policy, and makes Wikipedia a better more encyclopedic resource. Jheald 16:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know you think they should stay. They won't. Please look at the upper left of the page you are currently viewing. Do you see where it says "The Free Encyclopedia"? We are free. Fair use images are not free. As such, we work to limit the use of fair use images as much as possible. This is why we have Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria item #8 and m:Resolution:Licensing policy item #3 where it says "Such EDPs must be minimal" An oft cited principal in these discussions is the concept of "free as in libre" as opposed to "free as in beer". See Gratis_versus_Libre#Free_as_in_beer_versus_free_as_in_speech for more clarification. This project is free as in libre; we're not just supplying something that is free of cost.
  • This is a highly important distinction that seems to be lost on a number of people advocating the use of fair use images under a very liberal policy permitting their use. Wikipedia is part of the Free Culture movement. We are most emphatically not providing something that is free of cost but not free of modification. People who do not understand this principle do not yet understand what our true mission here is.
  • Under this distinction, it is blatantly obvious that a fair use gallery such as that on the Beatles discography is repugnant; it is not libre. It is free as in beer only. This is directly at odds with our purpose here.
  • If you are not committed to the concepts espoused by the Free Culture movement, then you are not in the right place. I am not suggesting you leave. Rather, I'm suggesting your intentions for being here need to be modified to uphold our deepest seated principal; free as in libre. --Durin 16:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Durin, I haven't put in the hours slogging in Brussels and Strasbourg trying to stop software patents and then to defend fair use, only to see you piss it up the wall. Fair use is a freedom. With copyright material it's the only freedom we have. It's a freedom that is worth defending, and worth asserting. Because otherwise it gets taken away.
Yes, I believe in a free wikipedia. What does that mean? Not free as in beer. It means freely reusable. Our articles like the Beatles discography are freely reusable, with their thumbnail images, because downstream re-users will also be able to claim them as fair use. Our job is to produce the best freely, unconditionally reusable encyclopedia we can. Those images should stay in. Jheald 17:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Durin, how are we supposed to come to a conclusion when your argument consists of "...No." without any explanation? --tjstrf talk 16:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, scratch that. How are we supposed to come to a conclusion when your argument does nothing to address any of his points, instead only saying that there are too many images in one place and that this is therefore somehow completely unacceptable in and of itself? There is no numeric limit. --tjstrf talk 16:36, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No there isn't a numeric limit. Should we therefore permit 10,000 fair use images on an article? We've got many articles with more than a hundred (or at least did, as of a day ago). Since we have no numeric limit those are ok? Please see my above discussion regarding free as in libre. We are the free encyclopedia. If you're not committed to that, you're on the wrong project. --Durin 16:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
First off, that's a strawman argument, and secondly the answer is very much yes. Allow me to explain.
Due to the non-paper nature of Wikipedia, we subdivide articles long before they reach anything near the point you have described, but for all intents each of these sub-articles is part of our coverage of the same subject and can be counted towards the total amount of non-free content of that subject being used. It is not uncommon to have a single particularly significant pop culture subject with literally hundreds of articles on it, each of which can validly use anywhere from one to several fair use images. (I'd estimate episode articles average about two and a half, one of which is usually extraneous.) So then, we have a single subject, one set of articles, on which there are can be 500 or 1000 fair use images being used. And, surprise surprise, if there are as many significant things to talk as there are images, and each of them cannot be comprehensively covered without illustration, and each of which is irreplaceable by free graphics or text, then this hundreds of fair use images per subject is minimal use.
I agree with you that illustrating discography lists is a non-minimal use, but could you please come up with arguments that support your opinion in an applied rather than simply ideological manner? Preaching the glories of free content is not an answer to any question except the question "Why does Wikipedia not use the highest number of images it can without getting sued?", and for those of us who already know the party line, and are asking how to best apply it to the real world, it is simply frustrating. --tjstrf talk 16:59, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I appreciate your comments and examples, but you're asking me to essentially come up with limitation definitions for use. There isn't one, and barring a banning of fair use period there won't be one. I'm sorry, but I do have to refer back to our mission. We are the free content encyclopedia. It's a lofty goal, and one we should all be striving towards. Non-free content is directly against this fundamental mission. --Durin 17:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Correction: the fundamental mission is to create the best possible encyclopedia. Fair use, within reasonable limits, is permitted and many of us will not allow overly extreme interpretations of Board policies to be imposed, nor any imaginary consensus for such interpretations to be mistakenly asserted. Reasonableness should be observed at all times, in all instances. Badagnani 17:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would state that if you believe the mission of Wikipedia is not to create the best, most comprehensive English-language encyclopedia, you yourself should move elsewhere, but--apparently unlike you--that is not my style, and I would never say such a thing to a fellow editor. Nothing I said about fair use material being used where appropriate and reasonable is incorrect. Badagnani 17:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not the way the foundation appears to see it. The foundation has set strict limits on the usage of fair use images. We are free as in the user's of this encyclopaedia are free to modify it. That includes the vast majority of images. —— Eagle101Need help? 17:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of you make it sound as if Wikipedia does not even permit fair use. Free content! Free content! Sure it wants all free content in the best of worlds, but when available. In the case of album covers, you all should know there is no free alternative and that therefore the mission can never apply to them. Not ever. As far as I can see they have not disallowed the use of fair-use copyright images. Even the best of rationales does not make it free content, but for some reason this fits in line with their free content vision? It doesn't make any sense. Wikipedia is, if anything, inconsistant. While it strives to be all free content, it allows for non-free content. Again, it does permit it. Let us not forget that, for what they allow is by default part of their "mission". (Mind meal 17:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Badagnani, please see m:Mission. Please note that it says "The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop neutral educational content under a free content license or in the public domain" It does not say anything about creating the best possible encyclopedia, or indeed anything about fair use. --Durin 17:27, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, that's the mission of the foundation. And good on 'em. But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. And it allows fair use of copyrighted material. And until that changes, the debate remains "how much and where". When Wikipedia "goes German," and gets ride of fair use, we'll have another debate. But for now, the fact remains that copyrighted material is welcomed on Wikipedia provided it meets our strict guidelines. And if you disagree with that, maybe you are working on the wrong project? Jenolen speak it! 17:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Um... you know we are owned by the foundation right? —— Eagle101Need help? 17:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm sorry -- did they pass a resolution banning copyrighted material from Wikipedia? No? It's actually still permitted?? You mean, the "Free above all else" foundation actually permits Wikipedia to use copyrighted material?? How horrible you must feel about that! Don't worry -- the "German Wikipedia" no fair use solution is coming. And yes, I am now and have always been a member of the "Wikipedia shouldn't be so afraid of copyrighted material" party. But thanks for questioning my ideological purity. It helps me put things in to perspective. This is not that important to me... After all, it's only Wikipedia! Jenolen speak it! 17:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Foundation does allow for the reasonable use of Fair Use on English Wikipedia, as Jenolen states, and as you know and I know. Badagnani 17:42, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jenolen, Badagnani; you're on the wrong side of this issue. Myself and others have taken great pains to show you why this is the case. You are focused on having content that is downstream reusable. We are focused on having content that is downstream modifiable. This is a fundamental philosophical difference. There is no middle ground. Either you hold the position that you are currently holding or you agree with the position that is stated in our mission statement. Further discussion isn't particularly useful; you've been shown how you are wrong. I'm sorry you think we are not a free content encyclopedia, but your belief does not change our mission. --Durin 17:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Durin, inclusion of fair-use images empowers our authors (and our downsteream reusers) to write and arrange content to support them. It promotes the development of free content, namely the articles those fair use images sit in. Suppose you strip out all of the fair use album covers. Can one of our contributors draw their own? No, that's a copyright violation. So it doesn't help encourage freedom one iota.
On the other hand, including appropriate fair use images can give people a better article, which they can better enjoy, and modify, and freely redistribute. It generates better free content. Jheald 18:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think it can, and I think it is a possibility you should not be so closed towards considering. Jheald 18:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Foundation resolution and us

Well, we've rather strayed from the original topic of this thread, but I think we can all agree on one thing here. "The mission of the Wikimedia Foundation is to empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop neutral educational content under a free content license or in the public domain".

Now notice something about that sentence: the Wikimedia Foundation.

That's the mission of the foundation as a whole. Individual projects have their own more focused goals. Wiktionary compiles word meanings, Wikispecies builds a database of all life, and Wikipedia... is an encyclopedia. This isn't just my spin, the very purpose of the EDP exemption clause was to recognize that the goals of individual projects may to a certain extent be incompatible with purely free content, and to balance them, preventing either of the two goals from overpowering the other.

The arguments over how much fair use content we can use are of where the ideal compromise between these two foundation-recognized goals of this project lies. Not, as sometimes presented, an argument between the foundation's views and the evil evil fair use advocates.

Incidentally, why does Wikiquote accept quote galleries on copyrighted works, where all of them are usable only under fair use but none of them can possibly be justified on the standards Wikipedia uses? --tjstrf talk 17:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wikiquote is not using fair use to have those quotes. —— Eagle101Need help? 17:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So, they're going with "stealing", then?  ;) Jenolen speak it! 18:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whoops! But note: though Wikiquote content is licensed under the GFDL, much of the content on Wikiquote is derivative of copyrighted material and is used under the "fair use" clause of U.S. copyright law. -- From [1]. Jenolen speak it! 18:05, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mmmm... ok, I was under the impression that it was related to how we do inline citations. —— Eagle101Need help? 18:07, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Critical commentary on album covers

Text under discussion, proposed by Jossi for addition into the project page:

Examples of unacceptable use
  • A CD cover, album cover, or book cover used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not include critical commentary of the cover art
(added by Jheald 17:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC), for clarity).[reply]

I've reverted this edit by Jossi. The Foundation's licensing policy allows use of copyrighted images "to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works". Critical commentary on the image itself strengthens our fair use claim, but is not necessary and is often not applicable (for example, what's there to say at Enta Da Stage). ShadowHalo 15:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After edit conflict, I had the following to say about essentially the same issue:

What is the logic in saying that logos can be used solely for identification but cover art must include critical commentary? In most cases they serve functionally the same purpose in the real world, i.e. to visually identify a particular group/product. So I don't see why they are treated differently here. Personally, I'd think identification ought to be a valid use in both cases. Dragons flight 15:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Completely agree. Neither should require critical commentary of the image itself, so long as there is extensive critical commentary, survey or review of the work or object to which it relates. Jheald 16:16, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Using an albumcover for identification may be permissable, but only in an actual article about the album itself (and I mean an actual article, not just list tracks and a infobox), just like logos are permissable for identification only in articles about the company or organization itself. That does not mean it's automaticaly also ok to use dozens (or even hundredts for the more prolific artists) albumcovers in a discography list, just like it's not ok to use dozens of logos in articles about championships or lists of companies and whatever. So the issue here is theyr ussage in lists or galleries where each album is just an item in a list rater than the main subject of the article, and where there is not any "in depth" commentary on spesific albums. --Sherool (talk) 16:22, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ops... I seem to have gotten a little confused here, I thougt we where still talking about discography lists... --Sherool (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • (ec) I realize the timing is confusing given the above discussion, but I'm not actually talking about discographies. Jossi's edit, highlighted above, and other existing text on the page (i.e. "*Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification and critical commentary (not for identification without critical commentary)"), both seem to take the position that even in articles about a specific album/book/etc. the editor would be required to provide critical commentary specific to the cover art. That seems inconsistent both with the way logos are treated and with the way articles on albums/books are usually handled in practice. If identification is considered a sufficient use of cover art in an article about the object itself, then perhaps this should be clarified. Dragons flight 16:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This only shows the lack of consensus on this issue. The edit I made was expressing the prevailing understanding behind massive tagging and massive deletion of images recently. We need to get clear on this ASAP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the sense of the reverted edit. If one includes cover art, either it's just decoration (in which case free decoration would take its place--or even no decoration at all--without lessening the informational content) or it's there for informational purposes. If the latter, its relevance should be discussed. This could be as simple as, in the case of the Surf's Up album, explaining that the cover is a rendition in oils of a famous sculpture called "End of the trail". The image of a dried river bed of the inner songsheet also suggests and ending, a petering-out, of inspiration. Secondary sources have commented on the iconography so it's a good subject. --Tony Sidaway 17:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is fatuous. The cover art imagery is the most visible aspect of the work, and therefore significant to the article on the album, with or without comment. Jheald 17:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An album cover in an article about the album serves to identify it, and hence provides the same sort of information that a logo does. Again, I don't understand the explicit dichotomy that this sets up where cover art is considered intrinsically different from logos. Dragons flight 17:46, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think jossi was stating that album covers and logos are different. He was just providing album covers as an example (since he added it to a list of examples). ShadowHalo 18:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is nonsense. First, the rule Sidaway is proposing proposed above would only encourage editors to insert trivial comments about images or add their own original research. It is a bad idea. Second, anyone who has spent any time with an album or book knows that the sight of the cover image can invoke one's memory of the content. Sometimes I can't think of the name of an artist or album, or author or title, but I can picture the cover. Identification of an album/book/corporation with an image is an important use worth defending. In cases where images uses are obvious and reasonable we should be encouraging clear fair use rationale in a way that does not threaten prompt deletion and reversal of other editors good faith efforts to build the 'pedia. -MrFizyx 18:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Don't the name and track list provide all necessary identifying information? Moreover, if someone shows me the US cover of Nicely Out of Tune it's unlikely to be of much use in identifying the album to me. Similarly the Josh Kirby book covers for UK editions of early Terry Pratchett novels are unlikely to be of much use to an American reader, as far as identification goes. This isn't to say that the Josh Kirby artwork isn't worth writing about. And if it is, it should be illustrated. --Tony Sidaway 19:28, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't a person be identified by name, adress, DOB? Why should anyone ever need to see a photo ID? Certianly some covers provide a less useful visual than others. I'm sure we could come up with good and bad examples. My point is that identification has a visual component. As a side note for the self-proclaimed "expouser of nonsense" above. Please remember that in addition to free content, notions of consensus and civility are still held in high regard on this project. -MrFizyx 20:02, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indeed, which is PRECISELY why I signed that way. You refer to the counter arguments against you as nonsense. Fine. I'm an espouser of nonsense. If you want to preach to me about violations of civility, please look in the mirror when doing so. --An espouser of nonsense 21:04 5 June 2007 (UTC)
OK, you're right. I should do better than throw around words like "nonsense", and you can probably do better than one liners and "If you honestly believe...then we have nothing to discuss," (as you told to an editor above who was expressing an opinion I happen to share). None of these things build consensus nor promote civility. I wasn't concerned about your new signature. "Nonsense" was of course my opinion about the proposal, and I followed it with two reasons for my objections. You disagree with me and that is fine. You seem to disagree with a lot of editors on this page.
Tell me, is this a fair summary of your argument above with other editors? (Please forgive any sarcasm that I've failed to filter out):
Wikipedia should only contain free content and nothing else. You feel your opinion is entirely supported by m:Mission. Anyone who disagrees with you or interprets the mission differently should keep in mind that,
  1. he or she is just plain wrong and you are right, and
  2. important people have already decided so complaining is useless.
Does that about cover it? I don't see much room in there for civil discussion or compromise. You are having fun, embracing terms like "fair use extremist", and taunting other editors a bit, and I suppose it is all well and good. Perhaps it is your vision of wikipedia that will eventually be realized. At the moment, however, I see very few on this page who agree with all of your positions so you might try to play a bit more nicely with others. As for me, I always have room to improve. Regards, -MrFizyx 22:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, that agrees with my position <cough> (and yes you can call that taunting you if you like). I've taken pains to point out to you and others that Wikipedia is about free content. Several people, including yourself, do not seem to be interested in Wikipedia having as little fair use as possible. Do I think Wikipedia could survive just fine without fair use? Absolutely. The second largest language project (indeed, almost all other language projects) do not permit fair use and they seem to get along just fine. I concur with Jimbo, when he said that fair use should be strictly limited to a very small set of images such as highly significant historical events.
  • There's a philosophical divide here, and within it there is no middle ground. Either you're in favor of free content, or you are not. There's not much room to compromise on that.
  • People here have been arguing very, very, very vociferously that we absolutely MUST have album covers on album articles. Why? There's no substantiative reason why this is absolutely necessary. If we're so limited in our abilities to discuss Bad (album) that we must have an album cover in order for the article to be complete, then we might as well turn in our editing tools. Note that the German version has no album cover. de:Bad (Album). Amazingly enough, that article is quite useful without the cover. You don't *have* to have a cover to make the article complete. If the cover were somehow unique, that might be interesting; if the article discusses why the cover is unique, it might be useful to see the cover. As is, any reader here is well capable of going to amazon.com and seeing what the cover of this album looks like [2]. The presence of the album's image adds virtually nothing to the article.
  • Despite this, several people here keep fighting like mad to have this category of usage allowed. It's not free content. It's not even close to free content. There's no way that it can be interpreted to be free content. Yet, according to these proponents we must have this. --Durin 22:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile, you continue to sit here and repeat yourself, hoping that if you give your free content spiel long enough we'll all quit and go away, while ignoring all the foundation statements that disagree with your particular POV. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. --tjstrf talk 22:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Despite having a different perspective a few days back, I now agree with Durin and Tony's viewpoint on this, after understanding the rational behind it. No book cover, no CD covers and no "fair use" content unless absolutely necessary as per the wording in WP:FUC policy: Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:55, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, the inclusion of non-free content such as cover art should be the exception and not the rule.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
So you (that's plural) ARE saying that pages about albums, games and books should not include the cover image other than in exception cases. At least that's an understandable opinion, even though I may not agree. I only wish you would have said that from the beginning instead of making a bot go around tagging thousands of images. There is no consensus for your opinion at the moment. Some wikiproject guidelines even directly contradict it. So I think you should bring this up as a proper discussion at the Village Pump and relevant Wikiprojects. Even if you think the opinions of other editors and wikiprojects don't matter, you should at least inform them before you go enforce your opinion with a bot. --Apoc2400 02:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding consensus, there doesn't seem to be much consensus on this talk page. Those who don't have a problem with the limited inclusion of fair use images are probably less compelled to leave comments here than those who do. In other words, consensus might be simply a consensus of squeaky wheels, so to speak. Perhaps this is why the Foundation's decision trumps everything, even consensus. For what it's worth I always thought the {{albumcover}} template was a sufficient fair use rationale as long as the image was used in an article about the album. I could never understand how a discography gallery could ever fall under fair use, particularly given our free content mission. Chiming in, -- Gyrofrog (talk) 02:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right with you, Gyrofrog . I'd also tend to agree that including album cover images in discographies or chronologies is over the top and probably taking advantage of fair use - they're after all just glorified lists. However in an article devoted to that album or to a song on that album, I think it's more a matter of arguing why that's not fair use than why it is, particularly with the existing album cover template (though admittedly I've succumbed to adding additional fair use rationales to images threatened with deletion in spite of the template's inbuilt rationale which served for so long). A popular music album is a work made up of a number of components, primarily audio but also visual, and you can make a good case that such an album's cover art is a more intrinsic and identifying part of the overall package than a book cover or a film poster. While the album cover does occasionally change for reissues, that's far less common than a book cover changing. So the identification argument holds more water when it comes to album or single covers. Does that mean the covers themselves need commentary to qualify for fair use? As ShadowHalo said earlier, that might bolster the argument but is not essential. Cheers, Ian Rose 12:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
[Reply to Durin] Yes, I suppose it is possible to create useful articles with only free images or no images whatsoever. On the other hand, readers of the Even Worse article might appreciate quick access to the cover of Bad. The image is sufficiently iconic to to have been parodied, and thus is certianly helpful for identification. Since it is not replacable with a free image, having it will not limit our ability to provide free content any more than not having it. I think you are partly correct regarding the philosophical differences. However, even many of us that favor the album covers promote replacing fair use images with free ones where possible. -MrFizyx 16:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an exemption policy under general Foundation non-free use policy. That means that stuff that doesn't match the standards we give here isn't allowed.

There has been controversy over the CD covers counter-example (intended to illustrate the kind of stuff that almost certainly isn't acceptable).

I have edited the examples in the guideline today to add this new wording:

16. A CD cover, album cover, or boom cover used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art. The mere fact that a picture has been placed on the cover of an album to sell it is not enough.

The reasoning here is that sticking any old picture into an article is purely decorative, and that isn't acceptable because of criterion 8 of this guideline:

Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.

Having some old picture in an article doesn't increase understanding unless the picture means something in the context of the product. The Led Zeppelin IV cover and liner notes graphics, for instance, are of high iconographic significance because they came to represent the group, as the Surf's Up cover with its ominous dark rendition of End of the Trail or the Sergeant Pepper cover with its cultural references. Most of the Yes covers show different phases of Roger Dean's work with the band, which included not only album covers but on-stage props used in their tours.

At the lower end of the scale we have items like the Beatles' White album, with its deliberately anonymous cover, or Lindisfarne's Nicely Out of Tune, the UK cover of which was deliberately laden with anachronisms and joky references to their parochial Tyneside origins. These things should be part of the article, or else they're just pictures used for decoration. --Tony Sidaway 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is exactly the issue at hand. There is unambiguous policy in place in this regard, which differs from its application. The gap needs to be closed: either the policy or its application need to be changed. I am for the latter. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jheald has reverted the edit[3], with the edit summary "that's not what the policy requires. If you think it should be, get consensus on the talk page."

Well that was a bold edit by me and an equally bold reversal by Jheald. But I don't see any comment here by Jheald. Could we have some kind of discussion over whether this interpretation of policy is correct? My point is that criterion 8 of this guideline requires something more than merely using an album cover as decoration. The criterion seems to be pretty plain in saying:

Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot.

If I've misunderstood it, I can be enlightened, and maybe we'll all learn from the discussion. But first we need to hold the discussion. Blind reverts like this aren't useful. --Tony Sidaway 01:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps if you look at this edit you would find my comment -- before someone erased it. [4] Jheald 01:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now, if the principle on this talk page is that new sections shouldn't be opened on matters already under discussion - as would seem to have been established above - then I propose to (again) close the discussion here, and copy the text to the section where the matter is already under discussion. Jheald 01:51, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

So, here is the comment, which (I presume accidentally) got deleted:

Disputed, and reverted. You can't simply make whatever changes you like to the policy without establishing and demonstrating consensus first.
The point about album cover images is they achieve a high iconographic significance in the context of the album because they come to represent the album -- the White album is one of the clearest examples of that of all. Jheald 01:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't dispute that album cover images and the like may achieve high iconographic significance. Sometimes. If they don't they won't be discussed in the article and their use would therefore be purely decorative (as in indeed their usual function on the cover in the first place). The example I give merely illustrates in a list called "Examples of unacceptable use" an example of unacceptable use. The wording is chosen carefully: used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art. The mere fact that a picture has been placed on the cover of an album to sell it is not enough.
If there is some significance about the image, it will be a legitimate subject of discussion in the article about the album. It takes a few second to upload an image and stick it into an article. While you're uploading the image you could be writing a sentence or two about the iconography. If you can't find anything to write about, I suggest that you have failed to comply with criterion 8:
Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.
Don't just treat these things as pretty pictures. Because if you do, you're failing to comply with foundation policy.
And again, I counsel you: don't treat this illustration as a change to policy, for it surely is not. It is simply an illustration of what does not comply with policy. And a mere picture does not comply with policy. It must add to the meaning of the article. You must show that or the item will be deleted. --Tony Sidaway 02:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, I think it is clear that different people have different opinions about what is "significant" versus what is "decorative". For me, I think in virtually all articles about a thing that showing what the thing looks like contributes significantly, as it conveys information about the appearance that is rarely (if ever) captured by the text. I would agree with you that showing the same image in other articles (such as about the composer, or in a discography) would usually be decorative. Let me say it again, in my opinion, if an article is about X then showing what X looks like is almost always a significant contribution to the article. Dragons flight 03:36, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Old quality/freedom issue. Have you noticed that album covers are not removed from articles about the album itself unless the image lacks source, license or rationale? The problem are always discographies. People want them to look like a catalog and not a list. How can you justify an album cover when the entry only shows the album name, release date and sold units? It is not different from using gifs as list items instead of * or # -- ReyBrujo 03:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But removing these images is likely to be the next step in this crusade. I completely disagree with the claim that using cover in the article about the product it illustrates is "decorative". In many cases, this is the only way to illustrate the article. See what Jimbo said about the matter once at Wikipedia talk:Publicity photos#This page is dangerous: My own view, which is at the extreme end of the spectrum I know, and therefore not (yet) formal policy in every case, is that we ought to have almost no fair use, outside of a very narrow class of images that are of unique historical importance. The cover of an album is the best and only sensible illustration of an article about that album, for example. Jogers (talk) 13:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that only some album covers have "iconographic significance" is ridiculous. They all do. The primary definition of icon is simply "a picture, image, or other representation" of something; the representation need not be "important and enduring" or subject to "great attention and devotion." An album cover is a representation of an album—the "best and only sensible" representation, according to Jimbo Wales—so an album cover is an icon. Album covers should therefore be treated no differently than icons. Punctured Bicycle 06:23, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Logo use

User:Larry Dunn has removed Image:Rangers.png from the Rangers F.C. article. While I am not an expert in these things, it seems to me that the image and this specific use would fall well inside our current policies. Comments? --John 21:03, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Per current policy:
  • Team and corporate logos: For identification.
So looks fine to me (though BetacommandBot will come after you, unless you add a fair use rationale for each usage of it...)
This policy isn't unanimously supported though, and might be narrowed to require some critical commentary of the logo itself, its relevance and its significance, if consensus is to narrow acceptable uses for cover art in this sort of way, as is being discussed futher up this page. Jheald 21:29, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, that's what I thought. The image seems to have an adequate fair use rationale so I will restore it to the article. --John 21:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A few other similar edits may need reverted. WATP  (talk) • (contribs) 21:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One thing I should maybe add: In the fair use rationale, you should probably specify at the top what the image is, and exactly which pages that it is being used on your rationale applies to. You might also think of adding something like "The image has widespread availability elsewhere on the internet" and "Use of the image will not affect the value of the original work or limit the copyright holder's rights or ability to carry on a normal exploitation of the original" -- to emphasise that nobody is going to impoverish Rangers' coffers by printing their own illicit T-shirts from this image, because of its reduced resolution. Jheald 22:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If someone were to make t-shirts from this logo, Rangers F.C. would be well within their rights to sue the maker. --Durin 22:17, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the point was that it would make a lousy t-shirt and someone making a counterfeit t-shirt could easily find a better source any number of places on the internet. I suppose that does sum up your vision nicely though, a "t-shirt legal wikipedia". Admirable perhaps, but I'm not ready to sign on. -MrFizyx 22:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    The image is of low enough resolution that it would not be feasible to use it on a t-shirt. Regarding the issue that the entire work is being used, that really doesn't matter. The four points that Larry Dunn listed are not a checklist. Use does not have to meet all four in order to comply with U.S. fair use laws. Rather, they are the four things taken into consideration when deciding whether or not the use is fair, with special emphasis on the impact on the market role of the original work. ShadowHalo 22:41, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I could very easily use it on a t-shirt as an embroidered logo on a pocket. It's well above resolution necessary for that. I'm not disputing it's presence on the article, just it's usability on a t-shirt and that it should never be used in that way and can not be under any legitimate fair use claim. --Durin 22:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I misunderstood what you had written. My apologies. ShadowHalo 23:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:::::*Point 3 of the licensing policy resolution of the Wikimedia Foundation, the resolution that our policy page should be modelled after, specifically allows using FU images of logos to illustrate an article as long as it has a fair use rationale. Durin, this isn't meant as a personal offense, but you aren't a lawyer (neither am I) and I strongly doubt that the WMF would have any responsibility in your example. As you mention yourself, RFC would be right to sue the maker, not the one of hundreds of possible sources where the "maker" happened to download the image from. Malc82 17:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Please read above where I state that I am not commenting on the presence of the logo in the article before making statements about what I said. Thank you. --Durin 13:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale

I would like to know why all non-free Wikipedia images must be accompanied by a specific fair use rationale for each case. This is not required by United States copyright law. The relevant section of the law, verbatim, is as follows:

§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —

  1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
  2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
  3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
  4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

Source: Official US Copyright Office Website

Nowhere in the law does it say that a specific rationale needs to accompany each use. So can anyone say why this policy was introduced here in the first place? This policy cannot be changed as of now without wider community input and (most likely) foundation approval, but if we can kill this proposal now with a specific reason it will save us a lot of trouble. —METS501 (talk) 01:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True the US law doesnt require it, but many many people dont understand Fair use, and abuse fair use images. What rationales do is clearly define where, how, and why a copyrighted image must be used on wikipedia. The idea behind rationales is simple. clearly state why we should display copyrighted images. Doing so allows us do define proper use of said image under copyright law. Example: A user is a star wars fan. they want to include images into star wars pages. (such images are copyright) to avoid overuse and use not covered by fair use the foundation asks that every use of a copyright image be given an explanation of why that page needs to include said image. Just because an article is about the US government that doesnt mean that the use of the seal of the United States can be used on every page. since the image is copyrighted use of the image should be limited to the articles directly related to the image. Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 03:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can understand that, but shouldn't templated messages be OK? —METS501 (talk) 03:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would have thought so. There seems a certain punitive component to the idea that each occasion of fair use should have a hand-crafted fair use rationale. The wordings of some of the messages (and especially the edit summaries) don't help either. Everything Betacommand mentions above could be incorporated into the {{fairusein}} template, no? --John 04:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
These warnings will just make people add something that looks like a fair use rationale to images whether it's a valid rationale or not. We need clear guidelines on where we can have fair use images and where we cannot. Now, most users will add a rationale that just repeats what's already said in the template. You will will have to run an other tagging round in a few months about bad rationales. Most users don't know the details of fair use law and never will. That's why we need proper guidelines and templates instead of just telling people to write their own rationale. We especially need guidelines and templates for the most common cases such as an album cover on the page about that album where there is no textual commentary of the cover itself. --Apoc2400 05:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think all of you missed the part above where it says "the purpose and character of the use". That's asking for rationale. Without that rationale, we are not adhereing to fair use law. Regardless, Wikipedia policies on this are a superset of fair use law. Please see Wikipedia:About. We are a free content encyclopedia. Copyrighted images used under fair use do not fit that definition. --Durin 05:18, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In most cases the purpose is "to show what it looks like". About your second point, fair use is not currently banned on the English Wikipedia. If you want to change that, then start a proper discussion about it. --Apoc2400 05:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You are correct. It isn't banned. It is, however, strongly limited. --Durin 05:32, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the question is how strongly limited. I think we need proper policies and guidelines for this, rather than just create a lot of hoops the editors have to jump through. --Apoc2400 05:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not about jumping through hoops. There are some who feel this bot is creating needless work because it tags, people add rationales, and we're back to square one. This is not the case. Fair use images must be justified for their inclusion. If the fair use rationale is inadequate, and a reasonable justification can not be made (for example, for a living person) then the image should be deleted. This bot is helping to progress things towards this state. This isn't some trick to see how high people can jump, and how many tricks they can do. It's about fair use law, and it is about free content. We are not the fair use encyclopedia. We are a free content encyclopedia. --Durin 05:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is no legal reason against using standardised rationale templates for standard cases. --Apoc2400 06:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What I have a problem with here is that if you want to remove a large class of fair use images, then you should spell it out clearly instead of asking for detailed rationales. If you ask people for rationales they will add rationales, whether they are appropriate or not. If you look at some of the rationales people are adding today, you will see that most of them don't add any information at all. Betacommand is already talking about running the bot again against images with rationales that aren't good enough. If we had a policy or guideline saying "no fair use images in discographies" it would be a lot more easy to make people understand. I could support such a policy/guideline too. For a single picture, I think fair use is ok though. --Apoc2400 06:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Without that rationale, we are not adhereing to fair use law."
You don't have to type out a rationale for it to exist - indeed as has been pointed out, they are often quite obvious. ¦ Reisio 05:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If only that were so... --Durin 05:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's hard to take such a seemingly glib comment seriously. That is so - that's why people are disputing over it (obviously). ¦ Reisio 06:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think that this is ridiculous - all it does is create needless hoops. Is anyone really arguing against the notion that all fair use rationales for using (for example) movie posters will be pretty much the same? Wikipedia should make things easier for editors by providing templates for such very common fair use rationales, which the uploader can change if needed. In fact, such templates already exist, only someone somehow decided that they're not enough (perhaps all of these templates should be deleted, then? Why do they exist nowadays, anyway?). Writing out completely unique fair use rationales for thousands of nearly identical cases is nothing more than an utter waste of time. Esn 06:46, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, it is so. A good portion of the fair use templates contain reasons that, on their own, are sufficient for fair use. I could go nominate them all for deletion as redundant, since their only use is to give fair use reasons, but unlike some others, I don't engage in WP:POINT. --Powerlord 08:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Our policy require fair use rationales, but let's not get confused with law here, the copyright law only require the use of an image to meet scertain conditions, you don't have to spell anyting out, and no amount of written fair use rationales will prevent anyone from suing if that's what they want. Wheter or not the use of a work actualy qualify as fair use can only be deterined by a judge in a court of law. So our fair use rationales are purely a Wikipedia policy construct, they serve two purposes. Firstly it explains why we believe the image can be legaly used, this is as I mentioned not required by law, but it helps to explain to other users (and re-users of our content) why we believe the use is defensable within the law (and help us identify and weed out uses that may not be defensable). The second reason is that since we are a free content ensyclopedia the use of non-free material is an exception to the general rule, and we require people to carefully explain why they believe each such exception is justified and nessesary per our exception policy in each instance. --Sherool (talk) 08:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
With all due respect, as a copyright lawyer I think the policy/guideline requiring hand-written fair use rationales is rubbish. In most situations there is no legitimate question about whether an image is fair use or not and a template is more than adequate. Why force people to game the system to avoid having their image being deleted? It's an arcane field of law. Laypeople don't have the tools to make an individualized argument. That will result in less cogent rationales that are impossible to automate. Or else they'll do the next best thing, cut and paste a rational from somewhere else, which is also more than adequate. Either way it is a waste of time. It serves no purpose, makes Wikipedia harder to use, and discourages rather than encourages constructive participation. It also flies in the face of standard accepted Internet copyright practices. There are plenty of websites that host user-submitted fair use images, and they do not require individualized legal arguments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs)
Amen. Punctured Bicycle 06:59, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You do understand its not our image right? I would hope so. Its not their image either. —— Eagle101Need help? 13:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How required fair use rationales became part of this policy

  1. Uncle G's 'bot, presumably at Uncle G's behest, creates Help:Image page under the pretense "TRANSWIKI: Copied from Meta:Help:Image page.". This page includes directives to include rationales in addition to copyright tag templates; such directives did not exist, however, on the aforementioned Meta:Help:Image page.
  2. Gareth Aus redirects Wikipedia:Image description page to the aforementioned Help:Image page.
  3. Sherool performs a simple redirect circumvention here on the policy page.

Voilà!; a policy is amended by a simple maintenance edit, a redirect for unknown reasons, and directives created by a single user.

To me this is not consensus, and barring these apparent facts being invalidated because histories have been altered or some other compelling reason, I think this requirement of rationales in addition to copyright tag templates should be struck from this policy.

If there is support for its inclusion, a true consensus should be achieved for it to be included again. ¦ Reisio 05:09, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To be honest, I'm far too angry about what is going on to comment with a cool head. What is happening now is one of the worst violations of WP:POINT that I have ever seen. Maybe I should wait a bit - but then again, if I wait much longer, most images in wikipedia will probably be deleted and a great many articles will be left broken. I don't know what to do. I wish someone would stop this bot and revert all of its edits. If someone is trying to make things as difficult as possible for wikipedia editors, while at the same time refusing to give them any help with the gargantuan task which lies ahead (to be completed in no more than one week), they're doing a heckuva job. Editors are left with a choice between altruism (if I don't do this, many articles will be ruined), and common sense (why the hell should I do this, anyway? Don't I have a life to live instead of doing this tedious twaddle). Esn 07:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm pretty sure there is more to it that that. Can't honestrly say where it first came from, but the fact that it's been part of the pollicy without challenge since (at least) 2005 alone should speak volumes about it's support. During that time literaly thousands of users have read and accepted it without challange and it's now an intrinsic part of our copyright policy to the point where the Wikimedia foundation board of trustees adopted it as an absolute requirement in theyr project wide copyright policy resolution (see point #4)[5]. --Sherool (talk) 09:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to my investigation, it has not "been part of the pollicy without challenge since (at least) 2005".

It was not until Gareth Aus' redirect on 20060415 that it actually changed, silently, from this...

Fair use rationale

There are a number of tags that are appropriate for fair use images. See Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags#Fair_use for a list.

Not all inclusions of fair use material may violate the GFDL; if there is a significant reason to include the image and no permission can be obtained it may still be allowable under the GFDL — a justification may be necessary.…

...to this...

Fair use rationale

When a non-free image is used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use, a justification for its usage, called a fair use rationale, must be presented in the Image description page. A separate rationale must be provided for each use of the image. If you are claiming fair use, you must include two things on the image description page:

  1. An appropriate fair use license tag. See Wikipedia:Image copyright tags/Non-free content for a list.
  2. A detailed fair use rationale.

This justification will help other users determine if the "fair use" could apply to a wide variety of uses or a narrow range of uses. It will also help determine if the given claim of fair use is appropriate for Wikipedia in the first place.

Non-free images that do not include both a fair use tag and a detailed fair use rationale will be deleted!…

...all without this actual policy page changing at all. It was not until your edit of 20061230 ( 8+ months later) that this drastic change was reflected here.

Given the stealth and time spans, it does not seem particularly odd to me that we're only now ( 6+ months later ) getting the sort of clashing that we are. ¦ Reisio 09:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The "drastic change" actualy happened over at WP:CSD I believe, changes here merely reflected that AFAIK. As I said I've not kept close track on where exactly everyting has been discussed, much of it is practicaly before my time. Anyway I asume WP:CSD#I6 did not materialise out of thin air, and I've never seen any serious challenges of that policy either. --Sherool (talk) 10:51, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid you are once again wrong. WP:CSD#I6 did not even exist until 20060504[6], and didn't require rationales à la WP:FURG until much later, when people started altering it to reflect this policy page. ¦ Reisio 02:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Read what durin wrote in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/FURG. I think it clarifies the matter quite nicely. Warning, he wrote a bunch. —— Eagle101Need help? 13:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

...Durin? Please... Anyways, none of that addresses this. ¦ Reisio 20:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone who thinks that the transwikification was a pretense has not looked at the wikitext. I suggest learning about transclusion and actually reading what is written at the bottom of the help page. Uncle G 10:44, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not particularly important what the process was for that edit, the change would still have been made to this policy by a redirect and simple redirect circumvention edit. It wasn't a policy change by consensus either way. ¦ Reisio 17:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of non-free images without time to add fair-use rationale.

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Originally posted at Wikipedia:Media copyright questions as invited by a 'this image will be deleted, please comment here' notification, but have been advised that that was the wrong place to ask. Thought I'd get some views here before the WP:VP.

Hi,

While I applaud the necessity to remove non-free or inappropriate images, serving notice to delete them (inviting the addition of Fair Use Rationale), but deleting the image only 2 hours later seems incredibly unfair.

I refer to one specific instance, the Rebus (TV series) had a screenshot of one of the actors, Ken Stott - Rebus has been played by more than one actor. The request for fair use rationale was given here: diff, (and asking for comments on this page, which is what I am doing), but the image was deleted approx. two hours later - in the middle of the night in the UK, where the series is aired). diff.

I am not necessarily questioning the deletion of this image, it is not my picture, and may not have qualified as fair use anyway, but I would have thought if Fair use rationale is being requested, some time should be given to produce that. It seems a violation of WP:FAITH, a) to question the good faith that somebody who uploaded the image thought it was fair use (the guidelines are quite complicated), and also b) the good faith required to allow some hard working editors (who also need to sleep) to carry out the FUR request, in order to attempt to improve the encyclopedia (by using appropriate fair-use images to enhance the quality of articles). As indeed Wikipedia:Featured article criteria rule3 suggests that It has images and other media where they are appropriate to the subject, this becomes even more difficult to find in some instances, as maybe there are no images that meet the criteria for inclusion of non-free content and be labeled accordingly. Obviously non-free images should not be used if they don't meet the criterion, but if they can't be found will the article not pass FAC? Catch-22.

As this image-removal drive seems to be working faster than 'human' editors can supply requests, are they expected to check every image used in their watchlist and supply the fair use rationale before an 'automated' bot beats them to it? This can be very time consuming, and also very demoralising, if articles that have had lots of work are ruined because the deletion of the images destroy the page. (c.f. this and that for discussions about another WikiProject I have spent a lot of work in.)

Am I entitled to suggest that a period of 5 days be granted to supply requested fair-use rationale before deletion of an image (in a similar manner to a prod)? This doesn't seem unreasonable...

Thanks, –MDCollins (talk) 10:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Deletions usualy don't happen that fast, but in this particular case the image was deleted by the uploader himself (who happened to be an admin), presumably because he agreed that the image was not fair usable. --Sherool (talk) 12:01, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, that was me. When I uploaded the image I thought it qualified for fair use. Perhaps a case could still be made that it does. However I am now less inclined than before to jump through hoops merely to satisfy this week's new bot directive. My new policy will be to prioritise, and if a few images are lost, so be it. Perhaps someone will take a free photo of Ken Stott, although it is unlikely to be as good as the one that I deleted, or as apposite to the Rebus (TV) article. I know that is the ultimate goal, to remove non-free images from articles and let the vacuum created tempt people to take and upload images with a freer licence. I even agree with it. If a few articles have to be without pictures for a while, I suppose that's a price we can pay. --John 14:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Finally, a description of the Betacommandbot we can all get behind. If its job is to "create a vacuum", I think you'll find a lot of people willing to say it's definitely taken the first step... It certainly sucks!  ;) (Play on words only -- no harm intended!)  ;) Jenolen speak it! 16:08, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Please continue this discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/FURG#Deletion of non-free images without time to add fair-use rationale. (all the information posted here has been pasted there). Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 03:29, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Urgent proposal to temporarily suspend CSD-I6

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

What happened to the 'Rebus' image is particularly shocking. I have just put up the following proposal at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion. I suggest people following this page add comments.


Bearing in mind

  1. The enormous sudden number of "missing fair use rationale" notifications that have been put out by BetacommandBot in the last few days,
  2. open division and debate here on talk WP:FAIR as to what the appropriate (and even the current) standards for book covers, media covers etc actually are,
  3. urgent - but far from complete - efforts at talk WP:FURG to develop model rationales for standard use cases (eg album covers on album articles, logos on logo articles, screenshots),
  4. the widespread confusion on this issue, and just what the bot is asking for, evidenced at WP:VP and othe talk pages for the bot and its owner,
  5. the legal importance of high-quality rationales, preferably based on legally checked models, because low-quality rationales will br pilloried by anti-commons zealots like the so-called Progress and Freedom Foundation, and could even constitute criminal incitement to copyright infringement,
  6. the wide level of anxiety amongst ordinary wikiusers right across en wikipedia that this is causing,

I propose that it would be appropriate to suspend CSD-I6 (Speedy deletion of images without fair use rationales) temporarily, at least until items (2) and (3) above have become more resolved.

Cases like this one [screenshot from "Rebus"], where an image was deleted two hours after the bot slapped a tag on it, are particularly inappropriate at this time; and arguably not appropriate for Speedy on this timescale at all.

CSD procedures are supposed to be non-controversial. In the current circumstances, CSD-I6 does not fit that brief.Jheald 11:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also now flagged up at WP Administrators noticeboard. Jheald 12:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Um, admins just need to wait the appropriate amount of time, no reason to suspend the criteria. (H) 15:59, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Suspending I6 isn't an option. We have to maintain compliance with foundation policy. We could suspend the exemptions, if you'd prefer... --Tony Sidaway 02:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Where's this policy outlined? ¦ Reisio 02:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here: Media used under EDPs are subject to deletion if they lack an applicable rationale. and As of March 23, 2007, all new media uploaded under unacceptable licenses (as defined above) and lacking an exemption rationale should be deleted, and existing media under such licenses should go through a discussion process where it is determined whether such a rationale exists; if not, they should be deleted as well. -- ReyBrujo 03:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Suspending deletions and deletion warnings for a few days while we clarify what sort of standard usages are acceptable, and can be referenced with standard justifications, is entirely appropriate. Anyhow, the principal locus for this discussion has moved to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/FURG, so if you've got a view, that is now the appropriate place you should raise it. Jheald 02:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Evidently there is no serious problem with the guidelines as they stand. And moving the discussion of a guideline off the talk page of a guideline isn't the way to get consensus to change it. --Tony Sidaway 03:22, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Let's discuss at a single place, otherwise this is a mess. Please do new additions at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/FURG#Urgent proposal to temporarily suspend CSD-I6, thanks. -- ReyBrujo 03:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Time to call off BetacommandBot

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

In view of points 1-6 above, I believe it is also time to call off BetacommandBot for the time being, at least until points (2) and (3) can be more resolved. It's put this issue on the agenda with a vengeance, but particularly until the question of standard model rationales can be resolved, for the time being it should be put on hold. Jheald 12:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, it is doing a job that needs to be done. (H) 15:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Please continue this discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/FURG#Reviewing the BetacommandBot issue and fair use policy. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 03:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This new "Deletion" section

I've just copy-edited this, but there are still problems.

________

The following two types of content can be deleted on the basis of the speedy deletion policy.

  1. Unused non-free copyrighted images. Images and other media that are neither used under a free license nor are in the public domain, that are not used in any article, and that have been tagged with a template that places them in a dated subcategory of Category:Orphaned fairuse images for more than seven days. Reasonable exceptions may be made for images uploaded for an upcoming article. Use {{subst:orfud}} to tag images for forthcoming deletion.
  2. Missing fair use rationale. Images and other media without a fair use rationale may be deleted from seven days after they were uploaded. Boilerplate fair use templates do not constitute a fair use rationale. Images and other media uploaded before May 4, 2006 should not be deleted immediately; instead, the uploader should be notified that a fair use rationale is needed. Images and other media uploaded after May 4, 2006 can be tagged with {{subst:nrd}}, and the uploader notified with {{subst:missing rationale|Image:image name}}. Such images can be found in the dated subcategories of Category:Images with no fair use rationale.

________

No. 1, just to clarify: all three conditions must be met? It would be better to bullet them.

No. 2: "... images may be deleted seven days after they were uploaded.... should not be deleted immediately;...". Why is immediate deletion even mention just after it's announced that you have to wait seven days? It's confusing. Then there's no minimum temporal interval after notification of the uploader; what is intended here? If the notification occurs on Day 8 after uploading, it can be deleted immediately after notifying the uploader?

Huh? After working this out, someone should go back and fix the original at the speedy deletion policy page. Tony 13:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to make any changes to that you ought to do it at WP:CSD and not here, as this page only copies what is there. Reverted. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now that's what I call really lazy and unhelpful. You revert, yet you add nothing here to further resolve my questions. Tony 22:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, I'm removing the "Deletion" section until it actually means something coherent, instead of being a mess that creates more fuzz. Tony 22:38, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No you cannot. That portion is part of WP:CSD that is policy. If you are not happy with that wording, please take it to the talk page of WP:CSD. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And btw, any further nasty comments in my talk page will be mercilessly deleted and not replied to. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:48, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't call "Please don't ..." nasty. No, YOU, take it to the source. YOU are the one who wants to post this rubbishy language on this page, so YOU fix it up first. This is most unsatisfactory, and cannot be allowed to remain on this page in its present form. I'll be posting a Dispute tag soon. Tony 00:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's very sloppy to just throw them in there like that, especially considering it's an incomplete copy of our CSD about images. I see what you're trying to do, but we can do this in a better way. We don't have to quote policy about other policy to get the point across in a helpful way. -- Ned Scott 23:54, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. That's what hyperlinks are for. howcheng {chat} 00:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Added. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Jossi. But now, what about addressing the problems in the hyperlinked text? It's unclear, and that makes the job of policing NFC harder. I've done my bit by copy-editing it and posing questions. Is it reasonable to paste it into the talk page over there? If you have answers to my queries, it would be better to address them first. Tony 00:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Sidaway's new paragraph

User:Tony Sidaway added the following paragraph to the article under "Examples of unacceptable use" without consensus:

  1. A CD cover, album cover, or boom cover used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art. The mere fact that a picture has been placed on the cover of an album to sell it is not enough.

The page was protected a minute later, but be aware that the current version is not official policy, but Tony Sidaway's version. --Apoc2400 05:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, the current page should not be recognized as policy. The last several edits to this talk page have been by various editors objecting precisely to this statement. The "pre-edit war" page should be the starting point for discussion. -MrFizyx 06:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good grief ... I have no doubt that eventually, we will get to the point where that is policy, but to just add it in without discussion is ... umm ... well ... not a good thing. --BigDT 06:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
BigDT, you know me better than that. I don't alter policy without discussion. I added a new section about it but another editor moved it up to the middle of another discussion, so you may have missed it. Search for "boom" from the top of the page and you should find the discussion.
That person objected and it was then protected. But the policy (which is transcluded from Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria) remains the same, particularly criterion 8:
Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.
The example I gave, which is of something that would not pass the policy, is of a CD cover or similar artwork that didn't "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot". A pretty picture is just a pretty picture. The inner cover of Close to the Edge with a discussion of the role Roger Dean's science fiction-tinged iconography, the specially designed Yes logo, and so on, would do so. So the example is just there to help people to understand that merely uploading ripped off CD covers isn't enough.
So in a way it's policy, in that it's implied by the policy. In another way, it's subject to editing here. We just have to find a way of putting that counter-example that doesn't trip somebody's nasty-button. --Tony Sidaway 06:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That is just your quite unusual interpretation of the policy. I think many editors feel that an image of the album cover DOES "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot", because it 1) visually identifies the the topic of the article, and 2) shows what the album looks like. Words cannot do either of those. --Apoc2400 06:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tony, you're applying your interpretation of a very nebulous bit of writing. I would agree with Apoc2400 that the cover of an album does significantly increase the reader's understanding of the work. Albums such (and these are very obvious examples) as Dark Side of the Moon, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Electric Ladyland are known not just for their music but for their covers, and their artwork is a part of the album. The artwork is almost always an intrinsic part of what an album is, and the example you've chosen is a poor one. Neil ╦ 08:58, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Things that a minority of Wikipedians think are implied by a policy are just that. Unless the policy clearly says this it shouldn't be added to the policy article, except in context. The use of images and logos in Infoboxes to identify the article's subject is extremely common on WP (and everywhere else) so I guess if the foundation had a problem with this specific use they would just have said so. I agree with Apoc2400, it does add significantly both to the understanding and overall impression of the article. Is it our goal to make WP look as unappealing as possible? Malc82 10:26, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with the majority of editors in this section. To reiterate one of my earlier postings, for popular music albums in particular, the cover art is, as a rule, a more fundamental and identifying part of the overall package than say a book cover, which the paragraph that started this off seems to lump with CD or album covers. While a rock album cover does occasionally change for reissues, that's far less common than a book cover changing. So the identification argument (i.e. not merely 'decoration') holds more water when it comes to album or single covers than it might for some other images and is quite appropriate for use in the relevant album or song articles. Cheers, Ian Rose 11:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree. The paragraph added by Tony Sidaway should be removed. It's only an interpretation of the policy. Jogers (talk) 16:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm leaning towards agreeing with Tony on this, but I think the language is a little tight. I'd like to see something which allows cover art to illustrate points made within the article. I also think we should make allowances for captions to assert critical points. A lot of scholarly works, text books and the like work that way. I think there's also got to be some consideration of iconic works, for example an image of the cover of Lady Chatterley's Lover at the time it got banned would better illustrate the article than any other image of the cover art, since it relates to an important aspect of the work itself, and helps to illustrate and inform the reader. The image in that sense will add context, something which can't easily be evoked in a rigid policy but which can exist and does make Wikipedia a better encyclopedia. I get where Tony is coming from, but I worry over interpretations of the text as it stands. Steve block Talk 11:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh, and regarding albums such as Dark Side of the Moon, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band and Electric Ladyland. You ask me, if our articles aren't already discussing the cover art, then we'd be better served fixing that rather than sitting here discussing why they should be excepted. Those covers are the reason why we need some guidance along these lines. People see them in an article and think they can then add the cover to Stevie & The Blowjobs Do Brass Monkeys. Steve block Talk 11:33, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do think this is a pretty clear standard. If there's nothing to be said about the album cover, it's nothing more than a pretty picture and its use in the article is primarily decorative (this is especially true where the album cover is different according to market, or if the album has been released under several different covers). This degrades the fair use case and thus cannot be ignored just because we don't like it, because foundation policy states that we will comply with the laws of Florida and the United States at a minimum.
On the other hand, if it's the first Electric Ladyland cover or Surf's Up, or some other album whose cover has iconographic value, the cover will be discussed in the article. And we will need to illustrate that. --Tony Sidaway 18:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Very confused about this page's relationship to WP:FURG

This page is policy. This page directs editors to WP:FURG, meaning that it's policy to follow WP:FURG.

However, WP:FURG isn't policy. It's a guideline.

How can it be official policy to do something that is not official policy?

This needs clarification. Dybryd 12:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, this page is a guideline that transcludes Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria, which is the only policy we have regarding fair use. -- ReyBrujo 12:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That isn't clear at all, in the policy as written or in the guideline as written or in they way they are being applied.
Dybryd 12:30, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The non-free content criteria (old fair use criteria) determines when a fair use image can be used and when it cannot. The guideline gives example about its usage, and wraps around the idea of why we restrict use of fair use items. I don't see what is unclear. -- ReyBrujo 12:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But why is this page the Exemption Doctrine Policy rather than Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria? It can't be a Wikimedia policy and a Wikipedia guideline, that makes a mockery of the Wikimedia foundation. It can't be both a policy and a guideline, can it? Steve block Talk 12:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, now I understand. Yes, the policy should be the EDP, with the guidelines being the surrounding core. I guess they did not want to point to the Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria directly because it was not useful without a context. -- ReyBrujo 13:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What this is all about: Shall we use fair-use images in these standard cases?

After participating in this whole debate for two days now, I think the main issue is that we have to collectively answer these questions:

  1. Shall we, in general, have a logotype in an article about a company, to visually identify the company and show what the logo looks like?
  2. Shall we, in general, have an image of the album cover in an article about a music album, for visual identification and to show what the product looks like?
  3. ... cover art in an article about a book?
  4. ... box art in an article about a video game?
  5. ... a screen shot in an article about a video game to show the general look and feel of the game? How many?

Not the phrase "in general" in all of the above questions. That is because I mean in the most common case,or for the majority if articles. Usage such as infoboxes. If there are free images of course we should have them. There are also many special cases where the image is necessary for the commentary in the article text. I am not referring to those cases, but to when the image is used for the reasons above only.

A few more questions have also been discussed, but there seems to be a consensus that the answers to there are no:

6. Shall we, in general, have an image of each album cover in a discography?
7 ... a still image of each episode of a TV series in an episode listing?

So, what are your opinions on each of these questions? I think that if we can come to a decision on these issues, many of the other disagreements would disappear. --Apoc2400 12:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • My answer, somewhat glib, is that you can have the first five if you can write a good rationale that satisfies a consensus of what a good rationale is. It's pretty much a case by case basis. I don't think every article on an album requires an image, but then I think we may well have too many articles on albums anyway. I'm not convinced that just because we have an article on a band, it follows we have an article for every album. You can't have the last two, because our policy states that As little non-free content as possible is used in an article. Steve block Talk 12:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    We can't just go with "satisfies a consensus of what a good rationale is". We actually have to comply with the law. --Tony Sidaway 18:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope. We can't comply with the law on this issue outside a courtroom, since that's the only place a fair use defence becomes legally valid. What we have to satisfy around here is ourselves. The Foundation and the legal people will pretty much suit themselves when complaints come in and deal with the situation through office actions. Fair use is a defence against a suit for breach of copyright. We can't know what makes a good fair use argument. We can just make our best stab at it. And we do that through discussion and consensus. Steve block Talk 19:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see your point about too many articles about albums. About rationales: If there can be a good rationale or not often depends on how we choose to interpret "minimal use" and "significant contribution to the article". That is what I hope this discussion can help clarify. --Apoc2400 13:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think it can. I think only a good rationale can make those arguments case by case. If you just want to stick an image in an article, no can do. You have to justify it. That's the policy. Steve block Talk 13:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fine if and only if you discuss whats important about the image in the text. Whats the style? Who made the cover art. Whats unique about how the game looks visually? Whats unique about the cover art? Those are all interesting questions, and if discussed clearly makes the images not decorative. 6 and 7 above are clearly decorative uses. —— Eagle101Need help? 13:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually meant the case where the text does not discuss the image much. Most shorter articles about companies for examples don't have much reason do discuss the logo. Still, I feel that a logo in the info box improves the article much. It helps readers tell if it's they found the article about the right company. Also, simply showing what the logo looks like is useful. It's [not --Apoc's edit] just decoration. Do others agree? The other cases are not as strong as for logos, but the reasoning can be similar. --Apoc2400 13:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You said it for me, its just decoration :). Now I would find the logos acceptable if we talked about the history of the logo. I have exams soon, but when I'm done I'll pick a company article, and write up what I think is suitable commentary. Even the logos have to have some history behind them, who made it? Why that design. I'd be happy with just the former, though some logos do have a rather interesting history behind them, and or have symbolic meaning that can be explained. —— Eagle101Need help? 13:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please tell me when you have had time for your logo research. I'm interested! Microsoft is an interesting one. There is a section about the logo and it's evolution, which has a few examples of old and current logos. But what about the logo in the infobox? That will be scolled off the screen when the reader got down to the logo section. --Apoc2400 14:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah as a matter of writing I'd certainly move the logo. But even if it is in the infobox I would not shed tears. Microsoft is exactly what I'm getting at. :) (even though I hate them and refuse to use their product :P ) —— Eagle101Need help? 14:15, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
At least something we can agree on then :-) </off-topic> --Apoc2400 14:43, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes to the first four, as long as they have a correct fair use rationale. A screenshot is fine, but you will usually find many of them in articles, because some players like this character, this scene or this weapon. No to the TV episode and discographies. Of course, the discographies and list of episodes are usually quarreled because fans want their lists to look like catalogs. However, we cannot have 100 screenshots in an article just because a series has 100 episodes. Check also Wikipedia:Fair use/Fair use images in lists. -- ReyBrujo 13:12, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Short answer: yes to the first five and no to the last two. In each of the first five cases, I would (generally) permit one image, say in an infobox, that relies only on a generic rationale and not on discussion in the text; if you wanted more than one image in the article, you'd need to justify with text commentary on the image. That to me is a reasonable balance. Cheers, Ian Rose 13:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That to me is decorative use. Lets make all our articles look good! If you can't be bothered to talk about something that is not yours in the first place, I don't see why we need to have them. They really don't add very significantly to the articles. Heck at one point I had the infoboxes disabled in my browser. (using greasemonkey). —— Eagle101Need help? 13:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think there may be issues over decorative and illustrative. Decorate makes an article look good, whilst illustrate enhances the information. Maybe that's the nub of the argument. Does using an image of the cover art help to illustrate any particular points made in the article? That's what has to be demonstrated in the rationale. I don't think we should be permitting one image per infobox just because. We have to make the case. How does the cover art help illustrate the article, how does it help impart information. If it is because it allows the reader to see the cover art, to create a visual impression of a multi-media product, then make that case. You can't just slap an image in an article, our policies don't allow that. Steve block Talk 13:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we agree pretty closely, at the very least some commentary on the album is good. I don't see these things justifiable on some of our stub albums with just a track listing for example. Please understand I'm not saying kill all fair use. :) When I'm done with exams I'll work on researching some of our logos so we have good reason to keep them. There is actually pretty interesting information. The same thing holds true for the coverart :) Then again I'm deaf, so the music does not interest me but the images do :) —— Eagle101Need help? 13:41, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(2x edit conflict) I'm fully with Eagle 101. A good percentage of our fair use images (ie: movie posts, CD covers, video game screenshots) are not needed. They are being decorative. Steve Block is correct in the distinction between decorative and illustrative, and good majority of our fair use images are in fact the former. I mean, really, do you need a screenshot of the title screen of a video game to understand what it's talking about? Perhaps a crucial plot point, but not the fairuse galleries we so often see for each game. It's just fancruft that has crept into unfree images. ^demon[omg plz] 13:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Given that rationale, demon, we could say, "I Mean, really, do you need to know that John Doe the singer once did this or that". You are making, ironically, a "boilerplate" assumption that most images in the mold we are discussing are there for nothing more than decoration. On what basis can you even determine that? Is critical commentary this long, or that long? How many words are sufficient to describe the image, if any? I mean really, we are complicating this far too much. (Mind meal 17:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • A general no to #3. An article about a book that doesn't even mention the name of the cover artist clearly doesn't need to be illustrated by an image of the cover. As there are typically many editions with different covers, the cover isn't a very good thing for identification purposes and will be of a mostly decorative nature (of course, the cover can be used if it is discussed in the article, but that's in special cases, not for all books). Kusma (talk) 13:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree re. the book covers and in fact probably all the others except album covers, having brought up a similar point in an earlier discussion about the intrinsic vs. merely decorative value of cover art in relation to pop music albums (under the Tony Sidaway's new paragraph section). In any case this doesn't negate a requirement for a rationale. Cheers, Ian Rose 14:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If there is value in the album, and there is something worthwhile about it, explain it. Most images have a story behind them. —— Eagle101Need help? 14:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a few specific examples can help the discussion. Do you think the following image uses are acceptable, assuming the images are scaled properly and rationales on the image pages are written?
  • The logo in the infobox at IKEA. The logo design is not discussed in the article.
  • The album cover in the article on War U2 album. The cover art design is not discussed further.
  • The box art in at Command & Conquer (computer game) The box design is not discussed in the text.
--Apoc2400 13:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, again to be glib, you're going to have to make a case. If all of these images had no fair use rationale, it doesn't matter, does it? So what is the fair use rationale? If there isn't one, it gets deleted in seven days, that simple. It's all well and good getting hypothetical, but the policy is quite clear. No rationale, no image. So if you can't write a rationale, you don't get the image. Can I write a rationale? Yes. Would I strengthen that rationale by editing the article to add context? Yes. Steve block Talk 13:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think what I meant is: Can a good fair use rationale be written for these cases? Do I understand you right that a good rationale can be written for their current use? On a side: Wouldn't it be a bit dishonest of us to change are articles to motivate fair use for an image that we actually want for other reasons? --Apoc2400 14:08, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, to all. I don't think there needs to be discussion of the cover art, and describing them as merely "decorative" without discussion within the text is incorrect. The covers serve a purpose - they illustrate (and I don't mean that in a decorative manner) the topic, without any text being needed within the meat of the article. Multiple screenshots for no purpose, I agree, are decorative. But covers are fine. And corporate logos are particularly linked up with corporate identity; getting rid of those would be particularly insane. Neil ╦ 14:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please tell me how the logo illistrates anything. Its just there for show. I'd understand it if there was some history or the designer's name around there some place, but the purpose of the image could be done with text. —— Eagle101Need help? 14:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mmm well:
  • The logo is very generic, but if there is a history behind it and or a designer he/she should get mentioned. Otherise it really does not serve much purpose.
  • The album is basically a picture of the singer. If there are any interesting design elements in it, keep it, otherwise it does not do very much. At the very least find the name of the person that took that image. Perhaps discus why she looks that way.
  • I've actually played that game, if I had to pick an image for use as fair use on that article I would not pick the cover box. I would instead take a screenshot of the game in action as that is much more interesting. If the box art is kept, at the least explain what the image is on the box art, and who designed it.

I would like to expand a big on the phrase visual identification. I used it in the questions above and it's been used by others before in this discussion. A little while ago I was looking for an old game I played many years ago, but really couldn't remember the name of. So I went clicking through out list of RTS games. When I got to Z (computer game), I could immediately tell from the box art and screenshot that this was the game I was looking for. If there were no box arts or screenshots I would have had to read a lot of text in a lot of articles before I found it. This is why I think visual identification is a significant contribution to an article. --Apoc2400 14:16, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats where we don't agree. I don't see it justifiable to have it just for that. Most images have a story. I'm sure that game has a story, otherwise it would be a dull game indeed! I don't think its asking much (and I'm willing to put time to this this weekend) to put a little blurb about the story behind the image. It would improve our articles. —— Eagle101Need help? 14:20, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In the test case, The Beatles discography, several of the albums in the articles have a story behind the cover art. Beatles for Sale, Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, The Beatles (album) and Abbey Road (album) are examples I recall. Steelbeard1 14:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right and those are interesting. The only place I would contest would be having them all in the discography. Thats just decorative use. A simple text would suffice. The discography is not about the albums, its about the set of albums and the work. A more appropriate image to have would be a picture of the band itself. —— Eagle101Need help? 14:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This has to be the most asinine conversation. My head is spinning from the absurdities proposed. One is not required to create a story about the image of an album cover to justify the use of the image in an article specifically about it! That is pure lunacy. The relevance of having the image present is obvious, as it quickly provides readers essential visual information directly pertaining to the article. You realize you will have people adding useless information in articles about the album cover in an attempt to satisfy this bogus and outright false standard. I can easily imagine things like, "The album cover is blue, with a yellow frog jumping in a pond on the cover" in addition to the actual image. I realize you do not intend for such usage, but that is what you will get. Imagine a commercial website doing that. Consumers would be wondering what the company was on when they decided to give the backstory to something as insignificant as the story behind an album cover! There is no story. Its an album cover! The story is the album itself. I don't understand how anyone believes using an image of an album cover in its corresponding article is somehow not good enough. Calm down a bit. We aren't even a commercial wesbite. Were a site to use Wikipedia content in a malicious way then they alone would be liable; not us. That would be like suing Amazon.com because someone copied an image from their site and ripped someone off. What is everyone so frightened about? (Mind meal 14:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]
I think there are concerns about commercial re-users of Wikipedia content. I think there are fears that some of those re-users may get sued, and the concern may be how that impacts on us. I won't pretend to know the answers to that question, but at a guess, making a hypothesis, there could be public relations issues, as well as financial problems for the foundation.

Company logos, and even more sports logos, are intended to be used as a part of the owners public image, so are CD and book covers. No law says they shouldn't be used on the net, there are websites dedicated exclusively to showing thousands of logos [7] and, what's most infuriating about this whole insanity, there's no problem whatsoever. Do you really think that anybody would ever sue WP for using a logo that the owner created for promotion? Did you ever imagine that: the New York Yankees complaining that the WP-article shouldn't use their logo because someone could copy this very image it and make some T-shirts?

The worst-case-scenario is that someday the copyright owner could contact the foundation and demand that they remove the image - which would take seconds. This whole mess is nothing than the biggest violation of WP:POINT I've ever seen. Malc82 15:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't think it is a violation of Point, since it has become Wikipedia policy. And great, people are happy for us to advertise their logos, but is Wikipedia about advertising. All any of us want is to make a better encyclopedia. Let's ratchet down the hyperbole a little and work out what's the best way to do that. The policies we have currently require images to have fair use rationales. Rather than argue about hypothetical can I use this, why not concentrate on writing the rationales. Consensus has determined that's what will make us a better encyclopedia. Steve block Talk 15:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't question the FUR part. Actually I've already added about 50-60 of them during the last 3 days, but what's the use in writing them if people here are already questioning if the images are allowed to be used anyway? By the way, adding a logo to e.g. a team about some hockey team has not so much to do with advertising, the logo is as well a part of the team's basic information as the arena they play in. Malc82 16:48, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, in my neck of the woods we call sports logos crests, so I associate logos with companies, hence the advertising train of thought. I'm not questioning the use of such images so much as I'm questioning the assumption that you can just slap one into an article and it's job done. I think the problem here is that these sorts of issues aren't created by the people who end up discussing them, but by the irregular user who just uploads a million images and then disappears. There probably is a problem with a number of our images, and that problem needs to be sorted, if only from a foundation viewpoint, so yeah, I agree, we shouldn't really waste so much time sitting here discussing it. Well, I shouldn't. You're actually being way more constructive. I've written two rationales since this started, I think. Steve block Talk 17:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd give a strong yes to 1 & 2. These are almost universal illustrations of the article's subject and are not replaceable with free alternatives. The image is significant to the reader with or without commentary. I would say yes in general to 3 & 4. These, however are somewhat less universal. If the covers a particular book or video game box vary widely, then the image should include some description and if possible commentary. (e.g. "cover of the first American edition of Harry Potter...") I see no need for a universal acceptance of 5, 6 & 7. There may be special cases where these would be "significant", but I would not assume this to be generally true. -MrFizyx 15:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We should never decide this question on a blanket basis. The answer to any question of "Is a fair use image of IMAGETYPE acceptable in ARTICLETYPE?" is "Sometimes. It depends which image, which article, whether the image itself is discussed in the article, whether it's replaceable (and don't just presume it's always not! I just took the fair-use logo out of the article on Creative Audio because someone had uploaded free images of their corporate HQ and one of their stores. Those photos happened to include the logo, but only incidentally, and not prominently enough to themselves fall under the logo's copyright.), and so on and so on. The idea of requiring a rationale is to get this point across-"You must justify the use of this image in that article, you can't try to justify the use of all images of this type in all articles of that type." So cut-and-paste rationales don't work, it requires actual thought and justification on a case-by-case basis. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should say "My answer to the question is..." not "The answer to the question is..." --Apoc2400 16:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure that the photographer isn't already employing "fair use" by posting Image:Creativelabs.jpg and I'm not entirely sure that it is a good replacement for the logo itself. Certainly a picture of a random person in the act reading the liner notes is not a good replacement for the album cover image--what are you suggesting there? I agree that we need better rationales, but I think there are a few general cases to be made. In these cases, uniformity of language might actually be a good thing. Such a default could always (and should) be adapted to special and unique uses. -MrFizyx 16:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why a boilerplate rationale cannot be applied to dvds and album covers when featured in articles that give the most basic of information pertaining to them. As many have pointed out in the past, the license itself actually provides a fair use rationale. Logic brings one to realize that if the uploader believes they have met the requirements the license itself gives examples for, that they could create a generic rationale that blatantly meets those requirements. If we must go down this road, we should force users on Special:upload to provide a rationale for each upload that is not free. If they select a license that is not free—and attempt an upload—the upload will fail and prompt them to create a rationale in some area designed for it. That will at least get the rationale on pages, regardless of whether it is legit or not. I must say that many of the ideas expressed here do not qualify as being bold on this website. The interpretations seem antithetical to the mission of Wikipedia, which is I do hope to inform people. Withholding essential and pertinant information from readers, such as visual information, seems very backward thinking to me. It does nothing to advance this site. I keep hearing "BLOODY WOLF!" cried out here, when in fact we are dealing with a kitten. How is the following:
  • This image of an album cover, by nature, has no free alternative.
  • The use of this image is intended to demonstrate to readers something which words alone will not and can never convey. It is one of a kind.
  • The use does not inhibit the copyright holder's ability to sell their product in any way.
  • This image shall be removed if controversial information on the album is included which is unsourced. (Mind meal 16:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • A boiler plate rationale wouldn't help because it can't contextualise, and it would simply breed new arguments. Our policy states that we keep fair use images to a minimum in an article. A boiler plate rationale would create the impression that this is not the case. It is also not the case that adding an image to an article instantly demonstrates to readers something which words alone will not and can never convey, nor does it make it one of a kind. I get what you are suggesting, but it is flawed. We already have some templates which you can fill in to create a rationale. We need some input as to which articles this applies to, for instance. Steve block Talk 17:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well I strongly support the usage in album articles. Good points, btw. In my opinion, the requirements for standard rationale in the case of albums could be as a simple as any that have used an album template in the article. Such templates (when properly filled) contain what musicians appear, a track listing, and typically a lead that briefly or deeply describes the album. So a boilerplate rationale could be used when all of those are included in the article, imo. That is, a lead; track info; sidemen; producer info....et cetera. This would seem to be critical commentary in my eyes, which is the most important requirement if you ask me. Nobody can really define critical commentary, though. I believe Wikipedia provides in articles on albums far more information than even a commercial website does, and they almost always accompany their listing with the image. Not to mention a commercial website actually has the potential of not delivering on a purchase and harming someone! We do not. We are not selling anything here and our purpose is information alone. Dot ORG! (Mind meal 17:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

Yes to 1-2-3 (for comics at least)-4, not certain about 5 (if the graphics or other visual elements are not further discussed, at most 1 screenshot, but preferable an image of the box art). I disagree quitestrongly with Eagle101: these aren't (only) decorative but (primarily) used for identification. For many people, an image of a cover will give a direct clue as to what the article is about, and even makes them e.g. remember that they have read the comic or heard the album, in a way that a text never can. Of course it needs a rationale, but I don't see why in many cases it can't be a boilerplate one either ("this image of the cover of album X is used to identify it visually in the article on album X"). The image on The Blue Lotus directly identifies the album even when the title doesn't immediately ring a bell, a problem many people have. What is that album with the Warhol banana cover called? I put a restriction on 3, since while most comics are published with only one cover image (even internationally), many books have different covers per edition, making them less useful as a means of identification. Fram 08:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you very much for bringing that up. Seems like the Deletionists have swayed the debate so much that Jimbo now finds himself on the other end of the spectrum. As far as I see, he says (or said) that e.g. album covers should be allowed, even when not discussed in the article. Malc82 19:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes to all. I'm mainly into music, I edit/read a lot of album/artist articles and I think album covers are a very informative, just like album titles and track titles. Album covers tend to say something about an artist/a band, about their genre, their style, their music. In general death metal album covers look very different from trance album covers, cover art is never merely "decoration". F.e. a Cannibal Corpse album cover gives anyone a quick impression of the music they play. A boiler plate rationale for album cover would be a good idea (is copy pasting rationales a better idea? No). Emmaneul (Talk) 20:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Another real example (book cover)

Another example: the article Christopher Meyer, recent UK Ambassador to the USA, includes a cover shot of his autobiography. The article notes he was "criticised for an 'unacceptable' breach of trust by the UK Government for releasing the book" (it really did kick up quite a storm), and links to a very hostile review on that point by a recent UK Government minister.

The cover of the book is bland, even generic, and there is no attempt to discuss it in artistic terms. Is its inclusion merely decorative? Is it permissible? Is it "illustrating the article when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art"? Does showing it "contribute significantly to the article"? (bearing in mind this was the book that made him, as an ex-ambassador, intensely controversial).

The cover of the book also includes a little picture of Sir Christopher in the top right hand corner.

What do people think? Useful? Not useful? Allowed? Not allowed? Jheald 17:11, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rationale added. (I wasn't the uploader, I hadn't noticed it hadn't got one). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jheald (talk • contribs)
  • Steve: It is still interesting to discuss if a fair use claim can be made. If not, then the image should be removed instead of writing a rationale. My gut feeling is that we can not claim fair use in that case. The article just barely mentions the book. MrFizyx is right that it's not really related to the rest of the discussion. --Apoc2400 17:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, it doesn't matter. It does not comply with our policies. Write the rationale or don't, butr let's not dicker over whether it should stay or go when it is quite clear in it's current state it should go. I'm of a mind that seeing as Jheald can write an eloquent rationale directly below my comment here, someone is merely setting up a logical trap. I'm not interested in playing games here or jumping through people's hoops. Riddle me this: if an article on a living subject contained the statement "He once masturbated on live telly", and someone said, if I can source it can it stay, would you spend time discussing that, or would you remove it and say, you source it first per our policy. Steve block Talk 17:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let me explain this is one I strongly think should be included, certainly satisfying the test in the non-free book template "t is believed that the use of low-resolution images of book covers ... to illustrate an article discussing the book in question ... qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law"; and on exactly the same criteria as the Lady Chatterley example and the album cover examples above: the primary means of visual identification of the subject or topic.
This book propelled Sir Christopher out of obscurity to being a household name in the UK. Former public servants in the UK just do not write memoirs this candid and this revealing. UK politicians do; but traditionally it has gone right against the code for public servants. If you would read the linked comments by Denis McShane they really spell out how controversial this book was. -- Jheald 17:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A proposal for an alternative text change

Instead of Tony S's proposal, which is causing such difficulties above on the question of what is decorative/illustrative/"merely" illustrative etc, I would like to propose the following textual alteration to the policy instead:

Change

  • Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification and critical commentary (not for identification without critical commentary).

to

  • Cover art: Cover art from various items, for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary).

I submit that this is actually the acid test for when we do and when we don't want cover art to be used. Jheald 17:32, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(And just to be absolutely clear, by "that item" I mean "the underlying item", not the cover image). Jheald 19:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


  • Support (proposer) Jheald 19:35, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the proposed change and the removal of example #16. I suspect, however, that consensus on this will be hard to reach, in which case we should move back to the page's status before the dispute arose (I'm not sure what that was). Also, the locked version has a typo in #16 ("boom cover"). -MrFizyx 17:49, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's not the text which constitutes Tony's changes, from what I can see. That text has been in the policy at least four months. I don't think your change really changes much at all, either. What we're disputing here is what constitutes critical commentary. It appears to me that everyone agrees that identification and critical commentary is the bar. Steve block Talk 17:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) No, it's a text which thinks Tony's changes are entirely wrong-headed. The question is: do you have to provide critical commentary of the image itself, or of the object with which it is associated? Jheald 18:05, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's tricky. The image needs to illustrate a point in the article. If that point is that the album was well received, then sure, I don't have a real issue. If the point being illustrated is that the album exists, then no, I'm of the opinion that that isn't good enough. Steve block Talk 19:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We maybe also need to beef up what guidance the policy gives on "critical commentary". The comment by ShadowHalo above in the section What IS Critical Commentary ? seems on the right track to me. Jheald 19:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have a hard time telling who Steve is responding to when he says "you"... I think it is fair to say that there is disagreement over whether the requirement is critical commentary of some visual aspect of the image itself or critical commentary of the item uniquely identified by the image. That is the dispute that Sidaway ignored when adding #16 and that Jheald is attempting to resolve with this proposal. -MrFizyx 18:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, these edit conflicts get in the way a bit. I've modified the formatting to clarify. To be honest, I think the problem is it's a know it when you see it. Steve block Talk 19:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • General support: The wording in the current version is obviously worthy of improvement, and one of the above suggestions might do, or even another version. Something along these lines must be included. --Durin 18:28, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • jheald I agree with this change, I will help this weekend on making some of our logos meet this. We can delay deletions of the already tagged images to allow time to do this work. It is important, and will improve wikipedia. —— Eagle101Need help? 18:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Eagle, my apologies for bolding your 'agree'. Won't do it again. Per Steve block above, one other thing we probably need to be looking at closely is what guidance the policy gives on "critical commentary". If, as well, we were to add wording along the lines of "If the artist, design company or photographer that created or designed the image is known, they should be clearly indicated in the article; if the image has a particular relevance to the underlying work, this should also be discussed" - ie giving people strong encouragement to expand articles in this way, but not going so far as to make it a prerequisite, would that be enough to match your instincts of how to encourage such development? Jheald 21:25, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, I just don't care for !voting all that much :). These things get resolved by chatting it out. —— Eagle101Need help? 23:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I see the point in making any changes. We shouldn't react to people freaking out about learning the rules. They freak out and go, zomg, we want a way that allows us to be exempt from the rules. I don't care how many discussions are started, how many polls are made, how many times someone says "this is horrible, an outrage", this is just a reaction from people who don't know what's going on. -- Ned Scott 04:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It really disturbs be how you and several others in "your team" don't care about other editors. Is that why that bot was started? You are angry at people who don't follow the rules, and want to give them a slap? The whole conflict has been filled with that attitude from your side. "We are right, you are wrong, stop complaining." You all need to learn some sense of community. Everything from how nobody checked if the relevant guidelines are any helpful before starting the bot, to how the related wikiprojects weren't even notified before, to how you ignore all criticism just screams from "from above" attitude. I don't know how much of this applies to you, or just to others behind this. --Apoc2400 06:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When this stuff started happening I set up an image help page for WP:DIGI to help them correct over 1,000 images (WikiProject Digimon/Images). I'm all about helping people fix the problem, and in no way do I see this as "punishment". I think we should help people to update their images, and to help them better understand what needs to be done. I am one of those users who made the mistakes of not having a rationale. Click my username, you'll see a large list of ones I still need to update.
I'm saying we shouldn't be changing policy because people are freaking out, not that we shouldn't be helping out. I'm sorry that I didn't make that clear. We are human, and we are not perfect. We worked hard on things like WP:FURG, because we wanted to help people fix the problem, only to have people like you come along and say "oh great, what is this piece of shit. Someone make the rationale for me and let me copy that, I don't want to do it myself".
We have some very important requirements, and it's even stated on Special:Upload itself. Many of us have worked very hard to help out our fellow editors. And what do you say to that? That we're not helping enough? That we're not making up for other people's mistakes enough? -- Ned Scott 07:31, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ned, this is actually a great clarification. It makes things understandable. I don't think its making these any easier to use, but simply making it obvious whats expected. This is a huge problem. We have some 20,000 images tagged, and an unknown number more. Lets not rush. Take our time, make it clear to the folks that upload non-free images that they must justify it with commentary or other unique justification. Delaying for 2-3 weeks of deleting the images does not hurt. We just need time to teach everyone how to do this right, and this is a large task because of the sheer number of people affected. —— Eagle101Need help? 19:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like the new wording that is suggested. Support. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Critical commentary

  • I just want to agree with those stating this is a debate over what critical commentary is and whether the critical commentary must target the actual image itself or what the image was intended to depict; in this case media covers. If you are in favor of either of these uses, please state support at the start of your post in this section. If you are in favor of images apprearing in only articles that explicitly comment on the image, please state no support or something similar. I will go first and state I Support the use of either method, as I feel both are valid forms of critical commentary as relates to the image. (Mind meal 20:01, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • I will just add that maybe we should seek out the literal meaning of "critical" "commentary" to discover what, in fact, it is. The word critical has two uses, the first would be to find fault in something. The use we are driving at is not this, and we are instead looking at "discriminating or precise", perhaps. In our current discussion commentary might mean "careful consideration, careful demonstration", in which case critical commentary could be said to mean a "discriminating or precise careful demonstration". We really must develop a criteria for what does and does not constitute critical commentary, otherwise this will be a recurring theme over and over again. To some careful demonstration may just mean track listing, a brief summary and a list of musicians and label information. For some it must be much more. Either way, this must get solved.(Mind meal 20:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Okay, how about: Fnord. Seriously, a poll on the matter is worthless. See Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/FURG#On_the_subject_of_the_character_of_use_of_fair_use_in_articles: that, not whatever is decided in this poll, is what we are aiming for. Whether or not the appearance of album covers in infoboxes or discographies is considered "transformative" ... well, we don't know, there isn't any case law about it. But this poll will be a worthless waste of time that will change nothing. --Iamunknown 20:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well Iamunknown, most of these discussions and polls period aren't going anywhere anyway. Even the link you provided gives no real direction or hope. This was just something that seemed fairly straightforward that would at least get everyone neatly on the record, as opposed to all this chaos. (Mind meal 20:37, 7 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]
    • I do agree that this is currently choas, I just don't think a poll will do anything other than add more chaos ;). As you can see, however, in the section above ("A proposal for an alternative text change"), it appears that editors with vastly different opinions (think, Durin, Eagle, and everyone else), are coming to a compromise! So we are making some progress (just slowly). --Iamunknown 20:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Way forward

Ok this is the course of action I suggest. 1) we start work on correcting the currently tagged images. Be that leave them be and let them get deleted (some may have to go this route), fix up the images that are being used correctly, or add some critical commentary about it, and then fix up the rational. I would suggest that if we take this course of action that a proposal be made (or effort go to supporting a current proposal if there is one), to hold off deleting the currently tagged images for 2-3 weeks. By that I mean extend the tag's time period from what it is now to 14-21 days. After this timeperiod ends and the image backlog returns to normal (admins get a chance to review all of these) we turn betacommandbot back on. The bot would be to run at tagging 300 images a day. Thats managable. (as opposed to the literally thousands tagged daily). I will start work on some corporate logos tonight. Lets get moving folks :) —— Eagle101Need help? 21:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I would support that, if we can agree closure on the text above on what the requirements are to justify cover art (4 voices are a start, but not enough). For new incoming images, tagging should continue perhaps? Jheald 21:40, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well we can get started now, no point in sitting around. The longer we sit around the more likely the current crop will get deleted. Keep in mind its technically getting near the time that admins can start deleting. So if this is to go through, we need to propose as well to the speedy policy to delay I6 temporarily. By that I mean move back 14-21 days, and after 17-24 days scale back to whatever the current time is. As a result, I'd suggest waiting about another 12-24 hours, then just be bold and insert it into the policy. We can hold off the bot tagging till this current backlog goes down a bit. I think about 300-500 images is reasonable a day. It will take time of course for the bot to finish, but bots are tireless. :) —— Eagle101Need help? 22:13, 7 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Another editor commented that 300 a day was too low. I agree. Also, this way forward suggestion makes no provision for inactivity in fixing these problems. As you note, "till this current backlog goes down a bit". There needs to be another metric. For example, turn the bot back on July 1st, making it a firm deadline. --Durin 00:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only reason I can see for not turning the bot back on right now is that we're all tired of people bitching about it. -- Ned Scott 08:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, I suggest we turn to bot loose again at maxumum possible speed (using some apropriately custum boilplate message) untill it's gone though all non-free images currently in existence with no rationale. We set aside all the dated categories created during this run and say that images in them are subject to deletion after 2-3 (or whatever) weeks after the tagging date rater than the standard 7 days if they still don't have any rationale. Just ammend the speedy criteria to say that special rules apply to images in categories dated X though Y (and add big red blinking notices to those categories to avoid any mishaps by overzealous admins), and remove it again once they are finaly cleared out). Dated categories created after this "big run" should then only contain newly uploaded images and these should be subject to the standard rules. --Sherool (talk) 09:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you want to crack down on incorrect fair use (which is about time) you should try to build up some understanding and support. Also design the process to that it will anger people as little as possible, not the reverse. I would suggest the following steps:
  1. Go to the the wikiprojects that will have many articles affected and say that you are cracking down on bad fair use, and tell them to look of their non-free image usage and check their guidelines. WP:ALBUM is one example.
  2. Change the bot message to be more friendly in general. Specifically:
  1. Can you make the bot post only one comment on each talk page, with a list of images in the comment? I know it's more difficult to code, but it would be a lot more friendly.
  2. Avoid using too much of the color red. We don't want to make new users feel like they did something terribly wrong. It's just a reminder that they forgot something important on their images.
  3. Make the template say that if
  1. Change the big red template on the bot's talk page to something friendlier. Now it basically looks like "I know you are here to complain. I don't care. Go away idiot!".
  2. Make sure WP:FURG is actually helpful. A lot of editors are used to learning by example rather than reading lengthy texts.
  3. Many editors have uploaded a lot of non-free images for the same kind of use. Logos of each sports teams in a series, album covers for each album by an artist, etc. Saying "each rationale must be unique" just won't make any sense to them. Many uses of non-free images are identical in nature, and we have to recognise that. Some people have uploaded a lot of non-free images for the same article. We should tell them to delete the images instead of writing rationales.
  4. We have to decide if visual identification satisfies the significance/important contribution/increases understanding requirement in our fair use policies. Then communicate this.
  5. Many users will look at the copyright template that is already there, see that it already looks like a good fair use rationale, and wonder what more they are supposed to add. WP:FURG doesn't explain this very well. Once thing thing that has to be added is what article fair use is claimed for, but what more?
  6. Actually listen to peoples comments and complaints, assume good faith, and modify the bot message and guidelines to be as helpful and non-alienating as possible.
  7. Keep messages and guidelines short, simple and to the point. Try not to come off as bureaucratic snobs.
That's what I can think of for now. --Apoc2400 10:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reason not to turn the bot back on now is that if it says "otherwise the image will be deleted in 10 days", that should be realistic. Otherwise it brings warnings like that into disrepute. I think there is broad agreement that we don't want to cause unnecessary collateral damage to wikipedia, and unnecessary bruising to users, by deleting images if it is patently clear that they are fair use. That is why there seems to be broad support for a stay of execution while we work through the tag mountain that BCbot has already created. After that time, BCbot should be run at a rate which matches what we can reasonably process. We will get there in the end.
Some people have said we need the bot to identify the scale of the problem. I can see that point. Can I suggest in the short term it might be helpful to modify the bot to count and list the pages, but not edit them -- i.e. identify them, but not tag them. Such lists could be very useful to AWB crews trying to clear up the problem. Jheald 10:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I tend to agree with Apoc2400 on a few points. We've gopt to remember that Wikipedia is a collaboration. That means getting out there and selling this idea. So I think before the bot gets turned on again, let's get out there and inform the relevant projects, get some reasonable guidance and some examples together, sort out a timescale, and then go with it. If we could get all that done over the next few days, then I think Durin's suggestion of turning the bot back on from July 1st, and resuming speedy deletions on the same date allows a reasonable period. People want to workshop a message for Wikiprojects below? Steve block Talk 10:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I fully support the idea of holding off on all images tagged by the bot for deletion until July 1st. There are a massive number of images, there is no immediate danger, and we want to promote good rationales written with thought and care, rather than tons of them slapped on haphazardly and rapidly. July 1st seems like a reasonable deadline for the current number of articles tagged, but I do not have a way to measure how many more the bot still needs to tag. What is the best way to put this into effect? --Strangerer (Talk) 11:13, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well as I said above I think we should just let the bot tag them all ASAP (with a modified message not indicating imminent deletion and some "anti-flood" feature). Having it create a list is probably not workable since the list might simply be too big for a MediaWiki page, categories scale a lot better. Once that's done we see how many images there are and descide what kind of timeframe is apropriate for allowing rationale writing. Once the to-be-descided deadline have passed images that still don't have rationales can be (manualy!) deleted. --Sherool (talk) 11:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See also proposals by Betacommand at WP:AN#BetacommandBot and Fair use -- essentially he suggests a timetable for running the bot at full tilt from July 1. Jheald 12:19, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Workshopping a notice for WikiProjects

Based on Wikipedia's non-free content criteria, all non-free images and other media are required to have a fair use rationale describing how the use of the image in each article is in line with Wikipedia's policy and fair use law. This means the image must illustrate an item or point under critical commentary within the article—it cannot be used simply to decorate the article. It is proposed that a bot will run from July 1st (a partial run of the bot was recently conducted) and from that date images will be deleted under speedy deletion Criterion I6, which states that "Any image or media without a fair use rationale may be deleted seven days after it is uploaded. Boilerplate fair use templates do not constitute a fair use rationale".

Each image requires a fair use rationale for each article it is used in. At {{Non-free media rationale}}, you'll find a template that will output a suitable rationale when correctly filled in. Some examples of non-template formatted rationales are at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale examples. The expectation is that most image description pages will be edited to comply with the fair use crieteria, and that thus the disturbance to Wikipedia will be minimal. Thanks for your collaboration in this process, which is a major step towards ensuring that Wikipedia's legal obligations and its mission are fulfilled.

Seems pretty reasonable - made some very minor mods. Cheers, Ian Rose 12:12, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a go at it. But what bothers me is that Criterion 16 is very poorly worded and, in a few respects, is unclear. Is that what I copy-edited recently? (Was shoved into the policy page raw, and of course the old version persists at Speedy Deletion.) Tony 12:40, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Modified a bit making it clear the rationale have to explain how it meet Wikipedia policy, not just fair use law. --Sherool (talk) 12:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly is the purpose of this notice? It seems like it's just restating some of the stuff at this page and talk page without explaining why it's relevant to any WikiProjects. ShadowHalo 12:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
See the section above. It was suggested we add a notice on the talk pages of relevant wikiprojects to give them a heads up. If you don't feel it does justice to its purpose, please edit. I was looking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Directory/Culture, and I think maybe a bot might be useful in adding the notice to WikiProjects. There's a lot that would be affected if you ask me. Steve block Talk 18:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to say this, I like what you guys have come up with :D. My suggestion is to hold off the bot. We can turn it back on once we have these images under control. When we do turn it back on, it will tag only 300-500 images daily. Thats a manageable amount. The critical part here is that we make sure that we make use of what fair use images we do justify. Use them in commentary. I would love to help out, but I have to move out of my college dorm. But as July 1 appraoches I will be assisting in justifying and making use of them for critical commentary. Most if not all of these images have a story behind them. Tell us what it is. I was just helping someone on IRC with this, its doable for the vast majority of our albums. Someone had to create the image, who is that? Whats the story behind the design? If the album cover is really not special (just a picture of the band with text on it saying that its XXX band), then I'd suggest perhaps using a small portion of the music. something like 10 seconds, if you can justify it. Folks, lets use this to improve our coverage, we have the ability. —— Eagle101Need help? 19:44, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I must be misunderstanding something here. If the album cover doesn't have critical commentary, we're going to use a music sample in the infobox instead? ShadowHalo 23:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If there is nothing to comment on the album, and there is something to comment on the music its a possibility. But you would have to justify it. Also please keep in mind that music does not help the deaf ;), same as images don't help the blind. So in both cases you should have a description explaining the style etc of the image. I'm not advocating using music, just mentioning it as a possibility, if it were done for an article with non-free music there had better be some serious justification for it. But really same thing for images :). Use the image with commentary. Its not hard :) —— Eagle101Need help? 23:18, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I6

It looks like we have some decent amount of support for this action, I think its drawing near time where we need to start moving on something, otherwise the images that are currently tagged are going to be in danger of deletion. I'm going to suggest that we go ahead and modify the fair use criteria as suggested above. From there we need to go ahead and start tagging to delay the deletion of the images until July 1. Find the categories they are in, and make a note of it on those pages. (should be the ones with a bunch of images in them). Also leave a note on Category:Candidates for speedy deletion about the delay. I must get back to packing up to move back home, but I hope someone takes this and runs with this. Otherwise we risk the images getting deleted. —— Eagle101Need help? 20:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about it, but I've edited Template:CSD/Subcategories to put up a note to this effect. I'm going to be away from the 'net for the weekend though, so it would be good if somebody could watch this, in case it gets reverted or automatically regenerated or something. Jheald 21:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Jheald I would also add your wording change as well. I will wait a bit, then I will make the change. —— Eagle101Need help? 21:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good, the page is protected from me still :-) Jheald 21:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Tags added to the top of CAT:DFUI and CAT:NR. Also WP:CSD I6 commented out, and replaced with note. Jheald 11:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

User:Thebainer has reversed out the change to CSD I6, and told me in talk:

If you want to alter the criteria for speedy deletion, you ought to propose any change at Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion; many editors who are concerned with the business of deletion will have that page on their watchlists and expect to see proposals suggested there. If you really want to propose a change, I suggest you do one that is confined in operation to the images that BetacommandBot has been tagging. --bainer (talk) 11:23, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

I cannot be on the net any more this weekend. Please, can somebody else take this up. Jheald 11:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Currency images

I want to comply with current policy, and have been trying to keep up with the debate, but I am really lost. I work on currency articles. US currency is mostly PD, but for many other countries, the status is unknown. Can anyone tell me if I'm okay with this: Image:East Africa 1 cent (KM22).jpg? I uploaded some other images of coins from the same region, with exactly the same rationale. I'd like to make it a template, but understand some would have a problem with that, making me think that my rationale may not be acceptable. I've been waiting to let the debate run its course, but thought another specific example might help. Ingrid 01:00, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • That image is licensed under GFDL (making it freely licensed) and confirmed as such with m:OTRS. That image is in the clear. No worries. --Durin 01:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, the scan is PD, but the underlying image on the coin has unknown copyright status. That's why there are 2 licensing tags. Ingrid 01:26, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • And it was cleared by OTRS. I think it's fine. --Durin 01:49, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • One of us is confused, and I freely admit it could be me. IANAL and have just been trying to understand what to do based on what I've read on wikipedia. As I understand it, since a coin is 3D, a scan or picture of it is a derivative work. Thus, the person who designed the coin (or the government that commissioned it) owns the copyright of the design, AND the person who scanned or photographed it owns a copyright on the scan/photo. {{WorldCoinGallery}} is asserting that the owner of the scan/photograph is releasing the scan/photo to the public domain. BUT, that person has no rights over the image on the coin, and thus cannot release it (and that's what the {{non-free currency}} tag refers to). Ingrid 02:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • You're not confused. In fact, you're refreshingly accurate in your summary. I'm just making a presumption (false?) that based on the OTRS ticket, it's under GFDL and the older fair use tag is obsolete. I could very well be wrong. I think we'd need to see the OTRS ticket to be clear. --Durin 02:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Okay, I get it now. I haven't seen the OTRS ticket, but I think I can safely say that it only relates to the scan/photo. I was the one who updated the WorldCoinGallery tag to include the OTRS ticket number, and I'm also familiar with the website the scans/photos come from. It's a collection of images of coins from all over the world, and the site does not mention any licensing (as far as I can see). Someone requested that the images be released, and thus the OTRS ticket. Each country has its own laws relating to currency, so we have multiple tags at Category:Currency copyright tags. For countries where we don't know, we use the generic non-free currency tag. The numismatics project has no clear policy on how to tag images, and we have many that are improperly tagged, and many that have been deleted recently (I don't know how many are a result of BetacommandBot's tagging). I think we need to double tag all coin images (one for the source of the scan, and one for the country). Banknote images should only need a tag for the country, since they're 2D already, and I created {{PD-banknote}} to make this clear (since many websites claim copyright on their scans, even though under US law, they shouldn't). I want to write up a policy, but still don't understand fair use rationale well enough.
            • So, if we assume I'm correct and we need 2 tags, is my fair use rationale good enough? Can I make it a template (actually a series of templates, since the example I gave above is specific to coins from countries/unions which no longer exist)? Ingrid 15:07, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The image is not obviously free. It is an image of something that may be copyrighted. We have a number of freely licensed photographs of copyrighted objects (check {{Statue}} or I think it is {{Non-free 3D art}} now, example: Image:SBC sculpture daytime.jpg). Such images are not considered free and must comply with our non-free policies. (I have no idea if these coins are copyrighted still, but when we are not sure we err on the side of something not being free instead of assuming it isn't copyrighted.) Kotepho 14:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is why I provided a fair use rationale. I still wonder (and hope my questions don't get lost in the middle of the page):
Is my fair use rationale adequate?
  • If yes, can I make a template for it, since I've been copy/pasting the rationale to all images for that article, or why would that not be okay?
  • If no, what do I need to change/add to it?
Ingrid 02:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

3O

Some comments over here would be useful. Perhaps policy needs to be clarified over when it's acceptable to use a fair use image. Matthew 13:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Images claimed to be free

What should be done with images that the uploader claims they are free and give it a "free" license (not a fair use one), but it can be proven that they are not, and does not feet Fair Use rationale either? For example, if I find a "PD-Self" photo of an actress, wich is actually a photo used at the cover of a magazine... Do I modify it to fair use and then apply fair use rationale to request delete, or do I use some other way? Perón 15:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You can correct the license if you're sure it's more correct. Be bold would apply there. If it's an image that must be used under fair use, use a non-free tag and give a rationale if you want. For images that would fail the fair use criteria, you can list for deletion/discussion using {{PUIdisputed}} and explaining why. If it's a clear copyright violation, you can use {{db-copyvio}}. It's not always clear when to use which approach, so just make your best judgment and go that route. MECU≈talk 18:43, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if the if you think the license tag is wrong, then tag it with {{PUIdisputed}} or {{db-copyvio}}. I don't think you should ask for a fair use rationale unless fair use has been claimed. --Apoc2400 04:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Images in lists and galleries

The following change needs to be made:

8. Significance. Non-free media is not used unless it contributes significantly to an article. It needs to significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic in a way that words alone cannot. The use of non-free media in lists, galleries, and navigational and user-interface elements is normally regarded as merely decorative, and is thus unacceptable.

The above discussions make it patently obvious that there is no consensus for the premise that images in lists and galleries are always unacceptable. An image which significant contributes to an article does not lose its signficance simply because it is in a list or gallery. In some cases, lists or galleries do significantly contribute to an article. If 25 images each contribute a unique significance to the understanding of the article's topic, then those images should be allowed, whether they are in the body of the text, in a list, or in a gallery. The criterion should be about what each image contributes, not whether it is in a list or gallery. I believe there is consensus that using images in navigational or user-interface elements is merely decorative, so I'll concede that part should remain. DHowell 20:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually no. Fair use gallaries are not useful unless there is critical commentary. The number is not important, but if there is nothing discussiong what is in the image, then its decorative. The only case where the number of images really matters is keeping in mind that most of the world is on Dialup', which is another real reason to keep the number of images on a page down, free or non free. —— Eagle101Need help? 21:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Eagle here. I think it is quite clear from the discussion above that fair use galleries are usually not acceptable. Discographies should not show each album cover in a list for example. --Apoc2400 04:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Fair use galleries are not useful unless there is critical commentary." Huh? How is the usefulness of a gallery determined by the copyright status of its components? Or is it your contention that "all" galleries (fair use or free) are not useful unless there is "critical commentary"? Is this image, for example, useless in the article about Albaninan currency unless there is "critical commentary" about each coin and its image and design? And what is wrong with a gallery if the commentary is entirely incoprorated into the image captions in the gallery?
Also, it is not "quite clear" from the discussion above that fair use galleries are usually not acceptable. What is clear is that there is fair number of people who won't accept fair use galleries under any circumstances, but they have failed to convince me or many other people that their use should be prohibited. Therefore there is no consensus, and no valid policy to prohibit them outright. DHowell 21:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is not an isolated instance of policy, but a statement summarizing policies found elsewhere. Non-free images can only be used when they are accompanied by critical commentary. This commentary is not provided in lists and galleries. That's why that wording is there. (ESkog)(Talk) 03:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no. There is no policy which requires "critical commentary" to accompany all non-free images. There is clear consensus that non-free images of corporate logos can used for identification of the subject of an article, for example. And the long-standing fair-use policy has been that the image must contribute significantly to the article, not that there must be "critical commentary". Images can contribute significantly to an article without there being any textual commentary at all. There has even been U.S. case law that has effectively said that a gallery of images itself could constitute "critical commentary" of the subject of a work, and thus be fair use. DHowell 10:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use is not a consensus issue

Having read the debate on boilerplates and image deletion for several days, I just realized why we're going so far afield on this. The problem is that we're applying Wikipedia's consensus model to answering a legal question. Alas, copyright issues are decided by judges and not Wikipedians.

What I'm getting at is that a question like "should we allow album cover art on discographies" or "do we need individualized rationales for use of corporate logos" or "is critical commentary about the image required for it to be used" are really two questions in one. First, is it legal, and second, should it be permitted on WP.

I don't think it's appropriate to use our system of discussion, consensus, debate, proposal, etc., for deciding something is legal. That is a question for copyright lawyers, or laypeople reading the opinions of judges and lawyers. I don't care of the opinion is 10-1 or 1-10, or if it's a longstanding guideline or an issue already decided, if it's legal it's legal. If not, it's not. If anyone gets sued the defense is fair use, not "we all had a discussion and agreed to it by consensus." Of course if it's illegal or the legality is subject to serious question, it should not be here, period.

If something is legal there is still a question of whether it should be permitted on Wikipedia. Generally, yes. But User:durin raises a serious if debatable point about free content. We should not allow something here if the use, as copied, distributed, and modified is going to be illegal (setting aside the question of things legal in one country being illegal in another, a different issue entirely). That issue is indeed subject to our consensus approach.

I strongly urge that we try to get some senior administrators or Wikipedia staff interested in this issue so they can tell us what they want to do, from a corporate point of view, about satisfying themselves as to the legality of different kind of articles. That's how every other organization other than Wikipedia decides its copyright policy -- they ask their company lawyer. And they will come back to us with a decision -- yes, you can use album cover art on discographies if you think it's appropriate for wikipedia or no, you cannot. If the lawyer's answer is yes, we create a template for that and move on. Or we can as a consensus decision decide that despite being legal we don't want that here, create a policy or guideline about that, and move on.

Please correct and forgive me if any of this has already been said or done. As I said, this is just from reading a few days worth of the discussion, not from a deep understanding of Wikipedia governance or history. 23:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree. this debate can ultimately only be solved at the top level, meaning we need clearer policies from the foundation. Malc82 23:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikimedia Foundation has already issued its statement. Most of the quibbling here is how to interpret it and whether or not we should be more restrictive in some respects than the Foundation's licensing policy requires. ShadowHalo 23:34, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Our fair use policies as is are substantially stricter than legal requirements- legal issues aren't really that pertinent in discussing our fair use policy. The reason we have such strict free use requirements is because the foundation's aim is to produce a high-quality free-content encyclopedia. Thus the conflict is, in broad terms between those who feel that Wikipedia should produce as high-quality an encyclopedia as possible, disregarding the "free-content" goal, and those who feel that wikipedia should hold on to its principles of free content. In summary, no, you are mistaken. The extent of our nonfree content policies is not a legal question. Borisblue 23:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The WMF is certainly interested in copyright on the projects they support. However, A) they are presently without a general counsel (since Brad resigned some months ago) and are unlikely to give any legal advice until new counsel is found. B) The WMF has always maintained that they are entitled to safe harbor status under the provisions of the DMCA. As a result, it is the WMF position that they are not liable for any user's action that results in copyright infringment. As a consequence of this, the WMF rarely engages in any copyright disputes unless first contacted by the copyright holder (choosing to take a more active role could actually cause them to lose safe harbor status and put them at greater risk). Hence it has generally been the de facto position of the WMF that deciding how to use materials legally is the user's responsibility and the user would be the liable party in the event of infringment. Most WMF pronouncments on copyright are actually of the "free content" type you identify above, i.e. setting policies that are in addition to any applicable legal requirments. Dragons flight 23:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There may be some quite good legal reasons that the WMF doesn't want to make itself legally liable by issuing legal advice. Instead, perhaps the best people to approach to give us the really expert assessment we need on what is absolutely reliably safe would be the Fair Use Project at Stanford. This seems to be exactly what they were set up for. Jheald 12:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would interprete the contributions above to say: "essentially it's the uploaders business. As long as (s)he doesn't violate any laws and there is a fair use rationale, there's no WMF policy to delete these images". For example, the current resolution clearly allows logos to be used for identification without being discussed in the article (Point 3). I think that some users are just exploiting the situation to push their own free-license agenda. NB: It may or may not be that the WMF ultimately wants to have a free-license only Wikipedia, but their current position is that fair use is allowed. Malc82 18:14, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use is a consensus issue, because the Foundation leaves it up to each project. See Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/FURG#The_Foundation.27s_Resolution:Licensing_policy_argument. ¦ Reisio 19:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The legalities are not up for decision here because they depend on the copyright and fair use law in the United States as interpreted by courts, not by Wikipedians (or in other countries, the applicable laws using whatever means they have to decide). However, as the discussion so far makes clear Wikipedia management and wikipedians want a tighter standard: to be appropriate an image must be legal and it must also satisfy some further guideline and policy limits having to do with free use content. -- anon
The law isn't spelled out explicitly enough for it to be relevant. What's relevant is our consensus, something we've never had on this issue. ¦ Reisio 01:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Paris Hilton Mugshot - copyright FU vio?

Please see this: [8]. People keep readding a copyrighting mugshot photo. Since two other free ones are there, I believe it's a FU vio to use the mugshot. Is re-adding it against copyright/FU rules? People will not stop there and I don't want to get blocked for helping enforce FU. I think I used my 3rr already. Can someone help? Cornea 23:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

For additional context, there is discussion regarding the inclusion of the image on the talk page, here. I have participated in the discussion, but not in the actual mugshot reversion. --Dreaded Walrus t c 23:55, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have amended it per CSC 6250 and 6252 (g). Here is a copy --
Per GOVERNMENT CODE SECTION 6250-6270, 6250 states,

In enacting this chapter, the Legislature, mindful of the right of individuals to privacy, finds and declares that access to information concerning the conduct of the people's business is a fundamental and necessary right of every person in this state.

6252 (g) states,

"Writing" means any handwriting, typewriting, printing, photostating, photographing, photocopying, transmitting by electronic mail or facsimile, and every other means of recording upon any tangible thing any form of communication or representation, including letters, words, pictures, sounds, or symbols, or combinations thereof, and any record thereby created, regardless of the manner in which the record has been stored.

Seicer (talk) (contribs) 00:33, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Accessing does not mean free. We need to be able to adapt/modify the work. ShadowHalo 00:36, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a non-free image of a living person. Perhaps if she were shown behind bars in a jail cell then you could claim that it's a "unique historical image" or some such. As it is, though, this image should be deleted. nadav (talk) 08:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC) It seems that the photo is actually in the public domain: someone called the Sheriff's Dept. a while ago about the Mel Gibson photo to check this. I have updated the image description page accordingly. nadav (talk) 10:07, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Fair use images in discographies -test case

Please see Talk:The_Beatles_discography#Poll_on_the_use_of_fair-use_images_on_this_page_and_the_interpretation_of_policy which is acting as a test case in this matter. Jooler 09:39, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Led Zeppelin

There are several screenshots from Led Zeppelin concert DVDs that have been uploaded for fair use on articles about the DVD. They seem to have turned into fair game and have been used in several other articles without any fair use rationale provided. I have taken many of them down, which I think is the right thing to do. For example, the Royal Albert Hall article. I do want Wikipdia to have quality images for the articles, but isn't inappropriate use of images creating some legal jeapordy? I took all the photos down from the Led Zeppelin article as well, leaving it looking a little barren. —Gaff ταλκ 06:03, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Images need to have a rationale for each article they are used in, so it's entierly apropriate to remove images from articles when there is no rationale present to justify theyr use in that article. The actual legal jeapordy is probably not something we should loose too much sleep over, I'm not a big fan of the whole "it's the law!" style of argument in these cases (as long as the ORTS or foundation office respond to legal takedown notices in a timely fashon the use of any one image is very unlikely to become a real legal issue). It's rater a matter of core project policies, we are a free content project, so seperate written justification is reqiured to explain why each image is nessesary, and otherwise meet all of our criteria for each use. --Sherool (talk) 09:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Relevant Signpost Article

Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-06-04/Dutch_government is a nice example of how we can get free use images simply by asking the relevant body. Borisblue 06:19, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As well, it's an example we can cite when making those requests. --Dhartung | Talk 00:57, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok The Twin Towers are gone, but we can still remember them. World Trade Center in popular culture page is a long long list of the Twin's in movies, cartoons, music videos, etc.

I want to add several images of the Twin Towers in Cartoons or TV Shows. They are only meant to show the Twin Towers in Cartoons or TV Shows, that it. The page would be much more intresting, and dont you think the Average Joe would be more intrested in looking a pictures than reading about it?

The problem is they are TV Screens. From Copyrighted Shows, etc.

Is it ok to post these pictures? Shouldnt I say, When the Picture was Made, say 1998. Who owns the Show, say Viacom. What channel the Show is own, say the CW. What is the show, say Friends. Wouldnt that be ok?

They wouldnt be used on any other picture, just on this one page for several people to view.

These pictures, would be an excellent way for people two remember the World Trade Center.

Please help! I really want for these pictures to be included, due to my wierd obsession with the Twin Towers ;)

Is it not reasonable to find a free image of the towers though? Before they fell? —— Eagle101Need help? 21:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not what I meant. I dont need pics of the Twin's Standing, I have pics of the Twins in Movies and Cartoons, and they would be great in the Pop Culture section.

The question you have to answer is not, do they make the article look good, but does the article need the images? Without the images, is the reader's understanding of the topic compromised? If the answer is yes, then that satisfies WP:NFCC #8. I'm going to guess that in this case, they're not necessary for the article. Feel free to argue your case, however. howcheng {chat} 22:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well the pictures (DONT HAVE TO) be there. But it would let the reader know what they are reading about. For example:

"In Madonna's 1998 hit, Ray of Light, The Twin Towers where shown, breifely, 4 times in the Koyaanisqatsi inspired music video, two from street level and two aerial dusk shots."

I'm sure the reader would like to see a picture of that. It would be much more intresting to see images that go along with the subject they are reading.

Now if I'm allowed to put the pics up (which I still havent gotten a firm YES or NO awnser) I wouldnt clutter up the page, just show 3 or 4 per sighting, for example TV, Music Videos, Cartoons, and those couple of images would only be the most prominent one. Not every sighting would have a picture.

The pictures, yes, would decorate the page, but also show the reader the sighting, while they read about it.

What you need to do is go through the Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. Non-free images that you want to include in an article have to meet all ten of them in order for them to OK. The hardest one to meet is usually #8, which requires that the image increase the reader's understanding in a way that words alone cannot. If the reader can understand the text without the image, then it's not necessary to the article and can't be used. Some good examples are the baseball card in Billy Ripken, the Pepsi ad in Edward F. Boyd, and the magazine cover in Demi Moore. Just "looking nice" is not acceptable. Hope that helps. howcheng {chat} 02:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes or No? I just need an awnser, the pictures, they seem to meet all requierments, and as Number 8, the pics would help the reader see the World Trade Center sighting, instead of just reading it they can also see an image of it.
If the the point is only to to lillusrate stuff like "in such and such movie the WTC is seen for 3 seconds as the camera pans across the skyline" it'd say no. The towers where landmarks and a prominent part of the NYC skyline and so they obviously appear in the background in a LOT of movies and stuff set in that area, I'd question the need to even mention brief background apperances, let alone illustrage them with non-free images. --Sherool (talk) 07:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image Policy

See Matoran and Toa. The images that are being removed have been on the article for god knows how long. Why are they suddenly in violation of the policy? Nothing was done before, why not? It seems like a blatant attack to me. Oh, and somebody other than those removing the images answer this. I'm not going to listen to them cuz they won't listen to me. ElectricTurahk 21:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's keep this discussion in one place. There are already a few good explanations at the proper section of Talk:Toa. This page is more for general commentary on the policy, not specific violations of it. (ESkog)(Talk) 21:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, then allow me to attempt to make a generalized comment in regards to the comment that more than just those who are opposed to me and are watching the Toa page will see. Why does it appear as if there is a sudden increase in finding loopholes with which to enforce this rule? Several of the Toa images, due note I use these solely as examplse, have been on Wikipedia for over a year, and no use of them has been restricted up until now. Why the change? That is what I want to know. ElectricTurahk 21:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Simple, its easier to find the pages that use many fair use images now. Due to a bot I ran, and User:Durin's parsing of the output, we have a current uptodate snapshot of what images are in what articles. Some images turn out to be ok, but it has to be clearly justified on how the usage of the image is not just for If the image is part of some critical commentary they are fine. Some of the images on that page have critical commentary, and should be fine, if you figure out which ones they are, then feel free to add them in. Also please make sure the rational on the images is up to par. (See the rational guideline for that. —— Eagle101Need help? 21:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, okay, I'll work on that... Now, another, unrelated, example, just to make sure that I'll be able to work this out - would all of the images on the various Gym Leader pages and Elite Four members also be breaking this policy? ElectricTurahk 21:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Elite Four, yes, the others I'm not sure. We really don't need an image of every member. —— Eagle101Need help? 22:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Were the article more thorough, I think it could be justified. But there's an issue, for example, with Glacia, who only has four sentences of text. ShadowHalo 22:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why not just one image with them all in it, I'm sure there is something like that floating around. —— Eagle101Need help? 22:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
[outdent] That's actually less likely than one would expect. Google doesn't appear to be turning much up (though I'm amused that Ashley Tisdale turns up). The four members are never really shown to be a group, per se, and from what I can tell they all appear in separate episodes on the TV series. ShadowHalo 22:32, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus then Guideline

Given that A CD cover, album cover, or boom cover used to illustrate an article about the CD, album, or book, when the article does not justify this by reference to attributes of the cover art. The mere fact that a picture has been placed on the cover of an album to sell it is not enough. is disputed, and a recent change in the guideline, and not required by the foundational licensing agreement, I'm removing it from the guideline page unless a consensus can be developed for it. Given that Jimbo specifically gives that as an example of appropriate fair use

My own view, which is at the extreme end of the spectrum I know, and therefore not (yet) formal policy in every case, is that we ought to have almost no fair use, outside of a very narrow class of images that are of unique historical importance. The cover of an album is the best and only sensible illustration of an article about that album, for example.

— Jimbo Wales

here, it shouldn't be added without a real consensus that we want to be stricter than we need to be, and than we've been in the past. WilyD 13:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

agree (to keep this prohibition out of the guideline) until and unless there's a formal policy banning album covers. It's not just the albums, the same argument would go for almost any use of a product label, corporate logo, photo of a copyrighted product or building, etc., to identify the subject. Humans are visual creatures and we need icons and symbols to understand things fully. Everybody else does it, nearly every other source I've seen uses fair use images to identify the subject they're talking about, whether it's a news broadcast or article, a TV commercial, a nonfiction book, or a website. Unless we want to drive Wikipedia back into the stone age we should allow graphics for readers to quickly identify the subject matter. Imposing a new ban now would mean deleting thousands of album covers, and if the same logic is adopted elsewhere tens of thousands of images, perhaps most of all the imagery on Wikipedia. If free content is the issue we should tag the images and use them in such a way that downstream users can take or leave the images without severe harm to the article.Wikidemo 14:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Nearly every other source I've seen uses fair use images to identify the subject" — have you read an encyclopedia recently? --Cyde Weys 14:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a recent encyclopedia? As far as I know they're all dead. Wikidemo 14:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, so not only have you not read an encyclopedia recently, you don't even know that there are any ones still alive. Brilliant. And we're supposed to trust you about fair use images why? --Cyde Weys 15:01, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You can trust me because I don't engage in ridiculous sparring or ad-hominem attacks on other Wikipedians. I stand by my statement. We are not living in a text only world. A Wikipedia without images to illustrate the subject it covers would be an anachronism Wikidemo 15:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A question to the rest of you: Would you take driving advice from someone who's never even seen a car? And an assignment for Wikidemo: go to your local library today and look in the Reference section. You'll be amazed. --Cyde Weys 15:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is almost impossible to work out. Britannica uses a copyrighted photo of the Beatles in the lead for identification - [9] - which of course doesn't indicate in the slightest whether they have permission. I suspect this'll be the case with almost everything Wikidemo finds - can't tell whether it's "fair use" or "use with permission, though fair use would cover you". WilyD 15:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I respectfully request that anyone in this discussion follow the Wikipedia:Etiquette guideline rather than attacking other Wikipedians' credibility to score points over matters subject to reasonable disagreement.Wikidemo 16:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's clear that apart from what laws or WMF policies dictate, Wikipedia policies and guidelines should be created through a consensus-finding process (I really think this is a no-brainer). So of course I support the removal of that statement. As for Cyde Weys: please try to stay civil and on topic. Malc82 16:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

[edit conflict] Why are we comparing ourselves to paper encyclopedias? We're looking to surpass Britannica in our breadth and depth, not mimick it. ShadowHalo 16:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mmmm, I support that language, we are the free encyclopedia. You need to justify why you need to use a fair use image, and it should be there for more then just "this is what they sold it with". If I gave you a list of 100 album covers, you would be lucky to identify 20 out of 100 based on the cover alone. —— Eagle101Need help? 17:07, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree, but that's not the question here. We're the "free encyclopedia" because everyone on the net can use it for free, it's not the "free-content only, be bold but use fair-use images as sparsely as possible encyclopedia". We'll have to agree to disagree on our "ideal wikipedia" imaginations, but as long as only a small minority of Wikipedians shares your view, it shouldn't be on the policy page. Malc82 18:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're incorrect about the meaning of "free encyclopedia". See, for example, Wikipedia:About where it links to Free content in the first sentence. See Wikipedia:Copyrights where it explains what the policy (not just guideline or essay) says can be used. Do you have any evidence at all for the claim that "only a small minority of Wikipedians shares (Eagle 101's) view"? I believe Eagle 101 was referring to one of the founding principles of Wikipedia, for which consensus can fairly be claimed among WP editors who haven't left and gone to work on Citizendium or other projects. This specific point, about not using unfree images without an article-specific fair-use rationale (that word has an "e" on the end) meeting the ten-point fair-use requirements, fits WP core policy which has consensus. It would be reasonable to argue about how much specific reference the article needs to have, or about how much fair-use tagging is required rather than advised, or to argue about which classes of image (album cover, box picture, TV screenshot, whatever) should have tougher or easier requirements; but it's not reasonable to claim that this is some new requirement or some sort of attack. People are simply trying to bring the content up to our published standards where the collaborative process hasn't yet met them. Barno 20:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, the discussion us (or should be) if a fair use image used solely for identification (not for decoration, but also without critical commentary about the image) is acceptable or not (assuming it has a rationale, isn't replaceable by a free image, etcetera). I think it is sufficient, and I see nothing in the copyright laws (but IANAL) or the Foundation statements contradicting this, but only a group of editors pushing for a much stricter interpretation of the fair use rules. Of course, when they would have a consensus for this, then it should be followed (there is no reason that we can't have stricter rules), but without this consensus, there is no reason that we must follow these stricter rules. As for comparing with other encyclopedias: apples and oranges... They do use copyrighted images, but probably do so by paying to use them (they aren't free either). These possibilities aren't available for Wikipedia. Fram 20:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To Barno: I don't know how often I will have to state that in these debates: I don't question the fair use rationale part, it is a WMP policy and thus there's no point in questioning it here. You're completely misrepresenting my statement. Please read the first sentence of this section (or my first edit) to see what I was referring to. Currently, the WMP policy doesn't ban the usage of fair-use images. Discussing if it is a "small" minority is moot, since very obviously it is far from consensus. Btw, I always wrote it with "e", why are you bringing that up? Malc82 21:05, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

what are we voting on?

Are we just talking or is this a request for consensus? If so, on what subject and how broad is the scope of the question? I'm a little new to these things. As I understand it the question is "do you agree or disagree with adding as an example for this guideline article that non-free use album cover art may not be used in an article unless the article contains critical commentary about the cover art itself? Is that the proposal? If so please make your vote clear, in addition to any debate on the matter.

to make clear, I disagree with that proposal for reasons stated above (I said above that I agreed with deleting the example) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs)
I also disagree with this example (and thus agree with its removal), per Jimbo's comment, per consensus, per U.S. fair use law, and per what ought to be common sense. DHowell 15:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We're not voting. All discussion on Wikipedia is supposed to be aimed at reaching consensus. --Tony Sidaway 00:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:VOTE is evil. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:32, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Free software screenshot replacement ideas

Ok, I am working on the Column (typography) article and I thought it would be neat to have a screen shot from MS Word of the default page layout when a user choose 3 columns. But then I got to thinking about fair use and all that jazz. So I was wondering if there was any open source document publishing software that doesn't have a non-free copyright on the software's GUI. I think there may be a fair use rationale on using MS Word because it is arguably the most commonly used application, however free is always better, right? So does anyone have any idea how I could show a screenshot of a multicolumn layout inside of a desktop publishing software interface and also make that image copyleft in some regard?-Andrew c 02:50, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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