Wikipedia talk:Article titles

RFC: Subtitles in naming

User:JHunterJ and I are having a dispute on whether an article on a board game should have its subtitle: I contend that it should, citing precedents such as Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots, Pokémon XD: Gale of Darkness (both video games), Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan (a film), and Descent: Journeys in the Dark (a board game) as examples, and thus I have proposed to move Elasund to Elasund: The First City. However, JHunterJ disagrees, claming that "Elasund" will the the name most refer it to and how most look it up, citing precedent in book naming conventions (which omit subtitles). A uniform policy across all such media is needed, and discussion should be useful in resolving this issue. kelvSYC (talk) 04:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Users JHunterJ and dcclark disagree with KelvSYC, because of WP:COMMONNAME. "Common name" is a uniform policy across all media (of which books are also a part). -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:49, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought we'd banned proxies. :-) Waltham, The Duke of 15:40, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

For books, the issue is treated at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles.

"which omit subtitles" is however an incorrect summary of the relevant books guidance. It's not a good idea to start this discussion with an erroneous oversimplification imho.

I have no experience whether guidance comparable to the books guidance would be adjusted for fields as diverse as games, films, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:59, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked, WP:COMMONNAME is with regards to names of people. But anyways, I should make it clear that subtitles are necessary in some certain contexts such as disambiguation (eg. Fire Emblem vs Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn), so we should be focusing on the naming of things in which the intended item is unambiguous without the subtitle. And from what I have seen, articles on films or video games at least tend to have the full name, while articles on books omit it. Here are more examples:

• Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (not Dr. Strangelove)
• Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins (not Super Mario Land 2)
• Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island (not Super Mario World 2 or Yoshi's Island)
• Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 (not Wario Land or Super Mario Land 3)

kelvSYC (talk) 15:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Re. "Last time I checked, WP:COMMONNAME is with regards to names of people" – please check again, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) was split of from WP:COMMONNAME in 2005. Really, starting a discussion with an exposé of erroneous simplifications is not the most brilliant of ideas.

I've encountered a few instances of book articles not following letter & spirit of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles. Accidents will happen, and in other cases sensible reasons not spelled out in the guideline were taken into account. Hard to build a case on a few unequal exceptions imho.

Re. Dr. Strangelove: I think that film should better be at that name. It was renamed without particular reason ([1]); it is a bit funny that the long version of the film title doesn't follow the capitalization provided by the distributor (see Image:Drstrangelove1sheet-.jpg); and it is generally known under the short name without ambiguity. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I won't argue about WP:COMMONNAME then, because it needs heavy refactoring - Saying that naming conventions on people was split off doesn't reflect nicely on WP:COMMONNAME since all of its examples are on articles about people. Again, I question whether the policy on books applies for other media. Perhaps books consistently omit subtitles (Frankenstein, and so forth), but calling what is probably standard practice in the names of other media as being "unequal exceptions" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? Especially considering that in all likelihood the opposite is true in virtually every other form of media. I could prolly give a long list of CVGs for which including subtitles (where it isn't strictly necessary to establish the subject matter) is the norm, and given enough time, I could find BTGs, films, and other media for which this is also true. On a sidenote, how do you intend to resolve StarCraft: The Board Game vs Starcraft (board game)? kelvSYC (talk) 17:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I've invited three relevant WikiProjects for their opinions: WP:CVG, WP:BTG, and WP:FILM on their thoughts. Let's see what they think, since it impacts them the most. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KelvSYC (talk • contribs) 13:43, July 17, 2008 (UTC)

Re. "WP:COMMONNAME [...] all of its examples are on articles about people" – please look again (WP:NCCN#Examples), 5 out of 11 examples are not people. I'm not going to make cheap jokes about the Guinea pig and the Sea cucumber.

Re. "Again, I question whether the policy on books applies for other media" – it doesn't, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Scope and definitions.

Re. "Perhaps books consistently omit subtitles" – no, again, apart from a few exceptions (some of them simple errors or unawareness of the guideline), Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Subtitles is the guideline that is applied for book articles.

Then follow more errors and arcane interpretations. No idea where you're trying to take yourself. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Explain to me why you think I am erroneous when I cite existing practice, or where my interpretations are "arcane" - why WP:CVG has it wrong when they put the article at Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos instead of Warcraft III, or why they have it wrong when it's Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars instead of Super Mario RPG. These are clearly not books, and are outside the scope of book naming conventions. kelvSYC (talk) 18:30, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if this sounds like a repeat: I have no experience whether guidance comparable to the books guidance would be adjusted for fields as diverse as games, films, etc.

Apart from books I only commented on the Dr. Strangelove film, while it seemed pretty straightforward to me. I have no opinion regarding the games. The only thing I wanted to make clear still: if you request "a uniform policy across all [...] media", then either count books out, or adapt to the books guideline. The other media articles are currently subject to the general naming conventions guidelines, including WP:NCCN. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:45, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

As a VG project editor I do think that game subtitles are used rather gratuitously and contrary to WP:COMMONNAME. While it is sometimes practical, in the case of disambiguation, it is often completely unnecessary or even counterproductive. For example, why is the article at Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty when the article also covers Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance (the Xbox port), which is essentially the same game? Wouldn't it just make a lot more sense to drop the subtitle? I don't want to see a repeat of this for MGS4. Ham Pastrami (talk) 01:49, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

As I mentioned when the subject came up at the VG project, my preferred naming conventions are "STOP MOVING IT" and "redirects are cheap, and also your friends." Nifboy (talk) 07:31, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

My 2p (which others have stated above): consistent with practice for books and movies, 1) include the subtitle in the full article ONLY when necessary for disambiguation (either among games, like titles that are part of a series, or between game and non-game articles that would otherwise have the same title): this is the only reason why Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan has a subtitle; there is a separate article at Borat that is about the character. 2) It would of course be OK to create a redirect article with a name that includes the subtitle, pointing to the non-subtitled full article. 3) To NB's "STOPMOVINGIT" concern: consistency is important, and if that means we have to do a bunch of final moves to implement whatever we decide here, so be it (moves are cheap too). UnitedStatesian (talk) 17:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Do what we do with books, otherwise we are introducing an gross inconsistency for no reason at all. Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan should be at Borat (film). And whoever said it's permissible to make redirects from the full title to the practical article name should have said "necessary", since someone somewhere will try to find it that way. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

"Official Names"

Is there currently a convention that exists anywhere for "official names"? For example, this revision to Conservative Party (UK), admittedly by me, has the official name (Conservative and Unionist Party) at the beginning of the lead, whereas another article Penalty shootout (association football) currently has the "popular" name first (i.e. penalty shootout). Admittedly this is in the lead rather than article names; however, I wondered if there was a convention as to when an article's name (per the naming conventions) is different to the "official name" and where therefore the "official name" appears (as it should) in the lead which should come first?

I know it's not a major issue but I've been through a few articles and it looks a bit of a mess when there are varying different styles used. BigHairRef | Talk 03:42, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

On biographies, WP:MOSBIO is clear:

"While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known. Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version. For example:

• (from Fidel Castro): Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz (born 13 August 1926) …

It goes on to an illustration where the official name has changed:

In some cases, subjects have legally changed their names at some point after birth. In these cases the birth name should be given as well:

• (from Bill Clinton): William Jefferson Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III on 19 August 1946)

PamD (talk) 06:38, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I was aware of the naming conventions for people and organisations, it was more as to the order in which they should come up in the lead. As I said it's not a mojor issue it would just be something useful in terms of style if all were to follow the same conventions, i.e. assuming the article's title was not the official name of an organisation, process, thing or person then which order should the official name then the common name follow in the lead as in the two examples given. BigHairRef | Talk 09:52, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

We often start with bolding the official name; but it'a a matter of taste, depending on euphony and exactly how uncommon the official name is; Cher seems to work well as it stands, the other way. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

This is just another application of the "use the common English-language name" maxim. If the official name (Rhode Island and the Providence Plantations) is not the most-recognized name, then mention it in the article, but name the article by the most-recognized name (Rhode Island). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Sugarland (duo) vs. Sugarland (band)

A while back, I moved the page to Sugarland (duo), based on the fact that a duo is not a band. This move went uncontested for months until User:Ericorbit moved it back citing naming conventions. I don't see anywhere in naming conventions that says that a musical group's page has to end in (band) if needed — two members do not a band make. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 16:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

I based my decision on the massive sweep done months (years?) ago which made just about all musical acts with more than one person needing disambiguation to "(band)". I know that when I first started editing in WP there were many pages with all types of descriptors: "(group)" or "(girl group)" or "(dance music act)", etc. I assumed (I suppose incorrectly) that there was something concrete written about musical acts being labeled "(band)" in order to keep things uniform. One example I gave to TPH was TLC (band) — hardly a "band" per se, but that particular disambiguation description keeps it in conformity to other musical-artist-related articles. I find a bit of a flaw with the line of thinking that a "duo" is not a "band". I believe a band can most certainly have as little as two people. For example, if someone wrote a best selling novel titled The White Stripes, I would expect the disambiguation of the music article to be "The White Stripes (band)", not "The White Stripes (duo)". Anyone else have thoughts on the matter or have TPH and I missed a prior conversation about this issue? - eo (talk) 12:07, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

I have never seen a duo referred to as a band. Not Brooks & Dunn, Montgomery Gentry, Sugarland, not The Judds. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 01:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "band" sounds like more than two (in a way that "group" doesn't). The relevant section of WP:NAME, Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Album_and_song_titles_and_band_names, says "When necessary, disambiguation should be done using (band), (album), or (song) (such as Anthrax (band) or Insomniac (album))" but goes on to say "When a track is not strictly a song (in other words a composition without lyrics, or an instrumental that is not a cover of a song), disambiguation should be done using (composition) or (instrumental).". Using "(duo)" could be seen to be an extension of that logic; perhaps there needs to be a discussion about that exact point (are you happy for a trio to be a "band"?). It's important that there's a redirect from the "(band)" version. Slight complication ... I see it was a trio until 2006! Might be best to just relax and leave it at "band", with a redirect from duo, accepting "band" as a wikipedia technical term which has a specific sense of "more than one person doing music together"? PamD (talk) 07:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree with PamD that "duo" would technically make more sense, but has some practical problems. I would say we should amend the quoted section to also mention that "duo" can be used for the same reasons as "composition" or "instrumental", while in this particular case it has to be band, because it was once a three-piece, and the article is not limited to their period as a duo. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 23:41, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Redesign of this page

This page is getting very long and unreadable. Since each section has its own page where the guideline is written in details and editors usually refer to, I don't think that the summaries in this page are really useful or representative of the guideline. Did someone think about collapsing the whole page, leaving only a short one-sentence description for each specific NC? (Wikipedia:Quick directory is close to what I have in mind). 18:05, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure that this is a good idea. This page is policy and as such the other pages, as guidelines, ought to describe in detail what is said on this page. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but every section links to a more detailed page, and some sections doesn't even have a summary which makes the page very messy. Eklipse (talk) 18:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Philip is correct on this one; the problem to be fixed is to provide the missing summaries, not delete or near-delete the rest of them! — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Hyphen, en dash, colon...?

At the Wikipedia: WikiProject Olympics, there is a doubt on which way we should name articles about Olympic events that are part of a specific sport. For every Olympic sport (e.g. athletics, basketball, judo, etc.) there is a main-level page which is standardly named <Sport> at the <Year> <Season> Olympics (e.g. Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics). Then, we have articles for each medal-awarding event that is related to a specific Olympic sport, and these pages were named <Sport> at the <Year> <Season> Olympics - <Gender> <event> (e.g. Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Women's 200 metre backstroke).

We didn't pay attention to this detail until know and although we searched the MoS to answer our question, we haven't found a clear guideline. The issue is: what kind of character should we use for the event page titles, where we want to link the event name with the parent sport? We've always used an hyphen, but as per WP:DASH, they don't serve that purpose; we've thought about replacing them with unspaced en-dashes, but the guideline concerning use of "En dashes in page names" doesn't mention the case where a hyphen was used as a linker. The closest thing found here, where a colon is recommended, but I don't think these articles are considered long lists.

What do you recommend? Parutakupiu (talk) 18:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

My recommendation is to use spaced en dashes. The MoS may not be clear about this specific case, but

1. hyphens should not be used in this fashion and I have yet to hear of any appropriate usage of em dashes in titles; and
2. WP:DASH says that spaced en dashes are used in lists to separate points; if you put all these article titles together, they do make such a list.

This is to use the wording closest to the occasion, but it really is the only plausible option anyway—the colon one is irrelevant, as these articles are indeed not components of long alphabetical lists.

I therefore suggest using titles like Swimming at the 2004 Summer Olympics – Women's 200 metre backstroke. There should also be a hyphenated version for each article, so that readers typing the hyphen in the title will be redirected to the correct page. As most (or all?) articles are in the version with the hyphen, the moves will create the redirects, so as far as this side of the issue is concerned, you probably only have to worry about future cases.

Thank you for using the Wikipedia Help System. Waltham, The Duke of 21:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Concur on the general principle (en-dashes when used should have hyphen redirs to en-dash articles), but have to observe that these names are excessively longwinded, and don't follow WP:NCLL, which calls for a colon as the preferred separator. Women's 200 metre backstroke at the 2004 Summer Olympics or 2004 Summer Olympics: Women's 200 metre backstroke would probably be better, assuming that this level of micro-topicality is really needed, an assumption I'm highly skeptical of. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Good to know that your recommendation goes in favor of the general consensus back at the WikiProject. We've had a user who offered to write a bot that will replace all the hundreds of pages that display such title structure. Its approval is still pending, so once it's approved and the 2008 Olympics (and with it the edit-frenzy on Olympics-related articles), massive moves will be made, with the hyphen-containing pages becoming redirects as you recommend.

Thank you! Parutakupiu (talk) 22:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (long lists) (which is the closest MOS article I could find that might apply to our scheme for WP:Summary style on Olympic articles) makes no mention of en dashes and explicitely calls out a hyphen as an acceptable alternative to the preferred colon. It ought to be updated, I guess, if this is the new consensus. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:01, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I note, in response, that WP:NCLL was a real mess, and has since been overhauled, including on this point, to better agree with MOS as a whole. NCLL does prefer a colon. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:39, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

MoS is pretty clear in preferring a spaced en dash. It looks much better and is more easily recognisable than a hyphen. On a computer monitor, many browsers and fonts render hyphens rather ungenerously (is it a fly spot?). Tony (talk) 00:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Right. However, any em-dashed article name should also have a hyphen version existing as a redirect to it, because the average reader doesn't know the difference, not being a pack of style guide nerds, and will type the hyphen when searching or when guessing at an article name in their URL bar. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

As I was watching some running just now, I noticed that spaced en dashes are used in the score cards for phrases like Result – Semifinal 1. I couldn't find any hyphens to make a comparison, but I'm certain that I saw en dashes. Clearly, this example should be followed. ;-)

And yes, I agree that the page needs to be updated. Waltham, The Duke of 11:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Which is to say, Tony and a handful of others dislike hyphens and have revert-warred against them. As often, do what seems best, after seeing what your sources do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Not worth replying to. Tony (talk) 05:23, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd say it is, simply by reversing it and adding clarification: Which is to say PMAnderson/Septentrionalis and a handful of others dislike en-dashes and em-dashes, no matter what non-WP style guidelines with incredible amounts of buy-in from professional writers and editors say, and have revert-warred against them. As often, do what seems best, after seeing what reliable sources on English language prose style do. I.e., use hyphens, en-dashes, em-dashes and minus signs where appropriate for the function of the particular "dash" character, rather than always using a hyphen because it is conveniently located on your keyboard. This is not some chintzy blog or chat forum. We have standards to live up to. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 09:07, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Page name grammar

I notice that a lot of categories get renamed from "fooian foos" to "foos in/from foo" (i.e., an adjective gets replaced with a preposition and noun). Is there an equivalent practice/guideline for naming articles? The reason I ask is that I've proposed renaming List of musical intervals to List of intervals in music. Thanks! SharkD (talk) 18:04, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

As a general principle, I think this is a good idea, and is clearly reflected in majority practice (i.e., it really is a guideline, that just hasn't been written down yet). There are numerous cases in which exceptions are warrented, however. See also the #Naming conventions for lists thread below, which is directly relevant. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:31, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Radio station article naming conventions

Resolved

 – Just an FYI about an uncontroversial edit.

I've added Australia in with Central and South America as one of the places where a mix of call signs and station names are used with respect to radio stations. This is for clarity, because it is already the existing practice to name Australian radio station articles in line with the station's name unless their call-sign is particularly well-known (like in the case of 2UE or 4MMM). Australian stations have no requirement to identify themselves on-air by their call-sign, so in many cases, particularly in FM radio, the call-sign is completely unknown to the listening audience. - Mark 07:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a reasonable clarification to me. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:28, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Countries take precedence

I would like to propose the notion that countries/nations should take precedence over any sub-national regions or cities in naming of articles. This may seem like a screaming obviousity but there are possible conflicts that can arise out of lack of having this policy, eg. the current debate at Talk:Georgia. The current vote has taken up 97kb so far, and that is not counting the five previous debates on exactly the same issue. Since the debate is currently lingering on the notion that there is a lack of a specific policy which would make Georgia (country) the primary article over Georgia (US state), I thought I would ask and get the general feeling around introducing such a policy to the naming conventions. Such a policy would not only exist for the case of Georgia, but would apply to any possible future conflicts over possible new (or old) nations. Before you reply, I would like to note such a rule would not affect the current status of Macedonia, which exists as a disambiguation page because of long-standing stable consensus over a real-life naming dispute (in contrast with the entirely Wikipedia-specific dispute over Georgia). So, what are your thoughts and ideas on such a convention? +Hexagon1 ^(t) 05:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

• Seems sensible to me. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
• I cannot civilly express how much I detest this proposal. English calls two entities Georgia, and our readers will want to know about both of them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• No strong feelings. If I type in Georgia, I don't mind which I get, as long as, if it's an entry and not a disambiguation, there's a For other uses link at the top. (I haven't looked at the Talk:Georgia discussion) Mcewan (talk) 20:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• I think if the nation is the primary topic for its name, it should be at the base name. If a sub-national geographic entity or even a non-geographic entity is the primary topic for a name that it shares with a nation, the nation should not be at the base name. I see no reason to implement a special subclause on WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for nations or states. -- JHunterJ (talk) 22:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• Of course we should prioritise independent and recognised states (this should not apply to the Greek region Macedonia, the region takes presedence over a non-recognised state name). And when I say recognised, I mean recognised by the United Nations. We should use the names used by the UN. NerdyNSK (talk) 23:59, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
• See also Aragon and Chitral for other examples of countries (Kingdom of Aragon, Chitral (princely state)) that do not get the base name, but rather the base name goes to a subdivision. There will be others, and the country should not be default (or by policy) get the base name. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• No, there is no reason to prioritize countries where there is clear evidence that the common usage of the term is divided. older ≠ wiser 12:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• Sensible to me. Priority to free independent recognized states. Vvolodymyr (talk) 09:46, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
• Concur with Bkonrad, JHunterJ, PMAnderson, Mcewan. I.e. not Hexagon1's proposal. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:27, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Naming convention for country names

This has probably come up previously, but shouldn't WP have a naming convention for country names? The ongoing messy and embarrassing series of arguments over naming Burma vs. Myanmar prompted me to ask this. Is that ongoing embarrassment the reason that there is no naming convention, or is the fact that there is no naming convention the reason for the ongoing embarrassment? -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

It does appear there should be a specific policy addressing the issues facing country naming on Wikipedia, I agree. Talk:Burma/Myanmar (a page devoted solely to the discussion of where the article should be placed) alone is 368kb already, that's ridiculous. Such a policy would also help clarify issues such as the one I discussed in the heading right above this one, about Georgia. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 02:48, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

• And nobody mention Republic of China, Republic of China (Taiwan), Republic of China (Taiwan), Taiwan, Taiwan (Republic of China), Taiwan (Republic of China), -- oops. Sardanaphalus (talk) 18:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

And Chinese Taipei. Heh. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

• We must use the names as recognised by the United Nations. For example, we should say FYROM and not what we say now, because that's what the UN uses. All of our articles should follow UN usage, and if the current policy (common names etc) is not compatible with it then it should be made to be. NerdyNSK (talk) 23:53, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
  • No, we should not. We do not use WP:Official names; we are writing in colloquial English. (In the case of the Republic of Macedonia, official usage is of course divided, as well.) We do have a policy on this; it's called WP:SOAPBOX. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
• We should have a clear convention. On one side a strong rule can be oppressive, on the other side lack of rules breed chaos, and in chaos - questionable structures usually grow. In my strong opinion - the preference should be given to self-determination. In other words if a country has named itself such - and announced to the world (through proper legal channels) this name (of course in English, since that's the language used for inter-country communications) - than that name should be give a preference over the habitual nickname. This i think reflects the free spirit of the free online encyclopedia (not to be confused with chaotic). Vvolodymyr (talk) 09:54, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
• Concur very strongly with PMAnderson. Otherwise we're going to have really pointless article names that most readers will be confused by. Try United States of Mexico and Rhode Island and the Providence Plantations and The Commonwealth of Massachusetts. It's perfectly fine that redirects exist from these, and that these official names exist in the articles, but they totally suck as actual article titles. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Ukrainian names

By the way the change was just done by one administrator disregarding all ethics. Vvolodymyr (talk) 20:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Although the section on Ukrainian names starts mentioning "With the general naming conventions above in mind ", the fact that the core principle of "prefer[ing] what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize" was not repeated afterwards when dealing with geographic names in Ukraine led to unnecessary confusion. This is an attempt to fix this "loophole".

The edit in question:

Original ambiguous text:

For geographic names in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National system is used. For historic reasons, many names are also presented in Russian, Polish, etc.

In green, the clarification added by PMAnderson & slightly amended by Erachima:

For geographic names in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National system is used when no common English name exists; see further Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). For historic reasons many names are also presented in Russian, Polish, etc.

Can we get a clear consensus for this edit ? - Regards, Ev (talk) 22:33, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

• I support the change, it's a trivial and obvious clarification that prevents potential Wikilawyering and confusion. Based on the edit summaries of User:Vvolodymyr above, I'd assume it's currently causing actual Wikilawying or confusion as well, though I haven't investigated myself. --erachima talk 22:37, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Actual confusion currently taking place at Talk:Kiev/naming#Request to move to official name :-) Regards, Ev (talk) 22:42, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

This seems an obvious clarification. older ≠ wiser 12:33, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Concur. If necessary, #Ukrainian should be edited to remove "official names", if this clarification is inadequate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the clarification. I don't see any evidence that it is actually causing confusion or wikilawyering; rather I see a bunch of editwarring flamers who cannot get over the issue they've become entrenched in, using anything they can to bash the other side and keep the fire going. It really doesn't matter what any guideline says, they'll find some way to screw it up because they are not seeing the forest for the trees and too heavily invested to just STFU and calm down. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it shouldn't even be about the Ukraine at all, but just a general statement about all placenames. The main article on Rome should be Rome not Roma, etc. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Reject

1) "conventional english name" is vague 2) such act could potentially deny the usage of announced self-determined name.

If someone announces the name to you - you could 1) ignore it and use a nickname that somebody else made up. 2) respect the right of the party to name itself.

What are you going to do in real life? Tell me to my face that you will calling something else regardless of what I already announced to you? In my face? Because you're used to calling me something else?

That is wrong on so many levels. Vvolodymyr (talk) 09:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The above is so off-base on so many levels. "Conventional English name" is not vague, except in the rare cases of ongoing transition (like "Beijing" about 20 years ago; most English speakers were still calling it "Peking" and weren't immediately sure where "Beijing" was; we're not confused about that any longer). Kiev is not undergoing such a transition to Kyiv in general English usage, no matter how much you wished it were. Contrast "Belarus", which has transitioned out of "Byelorussia" or "Belorussia" in my lifetime, just as Beijing/Peking has. And compare "Burma". Almost all English speakers still know it as "Burma", and have no idea where "Mynamar" is or what it is, no matter how much the Myanmar regime wish this were not the case, and even fund "Visit Myanmar" tourism advertisements.

Using the conventional English name does nothing whatsoever to "deny the usage of announced self-determined name", since the article in question would naturally have that right up at the top as well.

Kiev, like Vienna, Prague, Rome, etc., is not "a nickname that somebody else made up", it's the name of a place in a particular language other than that of the natives of that place, just as Inglaterra is the name of England in Spanish. The name of the Spanish Wikipedia article on England is, naturally, es:Inglaterra.

This has nothing to do with "respect[ing] the right of the party to name itself", since their own name would be given in the article as well.

This has nothing to do with anyone doing anything in anyone's face, since this is a website not a face-to-face conversation.

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:10, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Revert by Stifle

Stifle, regarding your revert of the edits in question, using the edit summary "rv to before this started; it's poor form to modify a guideline so that it suits you in a dispute. Mark the section as contradictory, then discuss. See WP:BRD." :

First of all, in his edit PMAnderson did not modify the naming conventions, but limited himself to clarify the language to avoid possible misunderstandings. He did not change the meaning of the guideline, but merely clarified a sentence that could be misinterpreted by those who read it in isolation, without properly placing it in the wider context of the general naming conventions and the specific clarifications explained in other guidelines (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)). — It's the difference between adding or removing mere text and adding or removing actual substance. — His edit was valid, and in my view necessary. — See above for further detail.

Second, the section is not contradictory, but merely potentially confusing for those reading its sentences in isolation. It's the act of marking it as contradictory that would constitute a proposal to modify the naming conventions, to change their meaning, their substance. — Again, see above for further detail.

Lastly, but most importantly, PMAnderson did most definitively not "modify a guideline so that it suits [him] in a dispute." That is a gross assumption of bad faith, and directed at an editor whose constant participation in the drafting of our naming conventions should shield him from such absurd accusations. — Please, at the very least do a null edit to the naming conventions adding an edit summary retracting this accusation, for clarity. - Ev (talk) 14:48, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:NC, which said that the Ukrainian national system should be used, had a different guideline from WP:NCGN on Ukrainian names, which says "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it". That meant that the two guidelines contradicted each other. As far as I can see, neither one should officially take precedence over the other

As far as I can see, the change was made in the context of a discussion at Talk:Kiev/naming, where PMAnderson supports the use of the name "Kiev", while Vvolodymyr supports "Kyiv". As such, PMAnderson's edit to this policy was an edit modifying a policy, and the new version does support his position in the dispute. It may well be what the consensus supports, I don't think it was done in bad faith, and under most circumstances it wouldn't be controversial. However, it's no different than if I modified WP:CSD to allow images larger than 2MB to be speedied, and proceeded to delete a couple dozen of them. As such I decline to retract the statement in my edit summary at this time.

For the record, I came to this dispute after Vvolodymyr twice reported PMAnderson's edit to the guideline at WP:AIV. I removed it as not appropriate each time, and Vvolodymyr requested my help on my talk (which conversation you can see). I have no opinion on the dispute itself. Stifle (talk) 15:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh, dear God! Stilfe, you're providing a textbook example of why this simple clarificatory edit is badly needed given the current state of Wikipedia: you're reading that single sentence in splendid isolation, without considering it in the light of either the general naming conventions or common Wikipedia practices. You're reading the letter of a single isolated sentence, oblivious of the spirit, intention or basic common sense behind our general policies & guidelines. You're placing a single isolated sentence at the same level of the naming convention's core principle. — And this despite the section on Ukrainian names clearly putting things in perspective by stating "With the general naming conventions above in mind[...] ".

Of course, the end result of this mentality is a more clogged Wikipedia in which wikilawyerish innuendo based on isolated portions of text and a moronically bureaucratic approach to every single process gets in the way of the site's true purpose & original objective, with the consequent waste of everyone's time, energy & good will.

Amid such amazing lack of understanding and common sense, I will attribute your statement to a simple impaired comprehension ability, and let it be.</rant> - Ev (talk) 16:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps less controversially, I did not appeal to the changed guideline. I assert, instead, that the state of Talk:Kiev/naming is good evidence that the consensus of Wikipedians is indeed that Ukrainian National spelling should not be applied to the capital city until English as a whole accepts it (which may take a while; we're still using Prague.)

Vvolodymyr would draw the opposite conclusion from the old language, which was silent on the matter. This inference is rejected by consensus, and it is contrary to the general section Wikipedia:Naming_conventions#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:02, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

This policy is one of the oldest on Wikipedia and has always had a clear that common English names are to be used (see 03:48, 24 November 2001.) Additions to this policy over the years have refined this, but have not not deviated from that premise. That there is a dispute over the addition of a phrase to clarify this in the Ukrainian names section is proof that it is needed for that section. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 22:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Have to concur with PMAnderson. Until Kyiv is as accepted in English over Kiev as Beijing and Mumbai have become over Peking and Bombay respectively, we should stick with Kiev, and note that Kyiv is how those in Kiev/Kyiv would transliterate it into our alphabet.

PS: PMAnderson being active in NC/MOS space does not magically shield him from criticism of his actions or suspicion about his motives. Some editors consider him outright disruptive at times, and pushing personal agendas. The exact same thing can be said of me, Tony1, Francis Schonken, Noetica, and all the rest of the MOS/NC regulars; it is impossible to keep everyone happy all the time, and we all have our editing questioned, sometimes by cluebags and sometimes by people with legitimate issues to raise, and we provide responses. No one need leap to our defense, especially on the basis that we are somehow unassailable.

PPS: Ev, calling other editors stupid (no matter how longwindedly you word it) constitutes personal attacks and can get you blocked.

PPPS: Everyone doing so, please stop referring to NC (and MOS, etc.) as policies; they are guidelines. The frequent hyperbolic panic over someone "daring" to modify policy is getting very frakking tiresome.

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:58, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, NC is policy. I'm not sure why; presumably the basic naming conventions, and the summary sentences here, are strong consensus. But if so, we should move most of the Ukrainian stuff, and other large sections, out of here into subpages. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:42, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

NC needs to be policy because otherwise the administrators over at WP:RM would be faced with the situation where a controversial requested move that had a local consensus to move to a name that contravenes this page, could not be vetoed (or at least not without a cat fight) as WP:CONSENSUS is a policy. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 04:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have said that while WP:NC itself is policy, WP:NC*, like WP:MOS and WP:MOS* are just guidelines. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 12:02, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Propose removing or seriously weakening "Use standard English for titles even if trademarks encourage otherwise"

This simply doesn't happen when editors decide it is over-ridden by other considerations, e.g. the cases of OpenServing, ABN AMRO, ego trip's The (White) Rapper Show, PricewaterhouseCoopers etc. etc. Still, editors are using the fact of an article title following capitalization that happens to reflect a trademark to move articles, leading to unnecessary contention. This is an example of a guideline written essentially by very few people creeping into policy and then being used against local consensus with predictable results. 86.44.29.211 (talk) 12:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

CamelCaps and initialisms are exceptions, per WP:MOS-TM, so the cases you're mentioning are not in violation of the rule. (Well, except that reality show, but its name is a fricking mess anyway and there's no practical way around it.) Did you read that page? --erachima talk 13:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

ABN AMRO isn't CamelCaps and neither strictly speaking is PricewaterhouseCoopers, and ego trip's The (White) Rapper Show as you say. I'm sure there are numerous other examples, so the point remains. I scanned that page; I don't particularly care for it. 86.44.29.211 (talk) 19:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Having exceptions for CamelCase and article names like iPod rather undermines the whole endeavour in any case. 86.44.29.211 (talk) 19:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

On what do you base "This is an example of a guideline written essentially by very few people creeping into policy" and by what do you mean "then being used against local consensus with predictable results"? What does "Having exceptions for CamelCase and article names like iPod rather undermines the whole endeavour in any case" mean? Thanks for the clarification. Alan smithee (talk) 21:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Not a lot of people wrote WP:MOS-TM, and fewer are invested in it. More people wrote, or edited in such a way as to have retained, any one of the titles already referred to above. WP:MOS-TM seems to be included in WP:NAME purely for completeness, just because it exists. WP:NAME details conventions, then goes further to call the TM convention a convention explicitly in a page about conventions, yet people are still going to articles and creating a problem where before none existed, because this part of WP:NAME exists, since WP:Name purports to be policy.

Any logic there can be behind enforcing a style on capitalization that follows a trademark seems to me to be undermined by the existence of somewhat broad but specifically outlined exceptions.

The talk page of MOS-TM is a good read, taking in things like ABN AMRO and iPod Shuffle and whatnot. Doesn't make a great deal of sense, and shouldn't be included here. 86.44.27.45 (talk) 01:14, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

MoS-TM is a guideline, it just states a general rule, and is expected to have some exceptions. The basic point of the guideline, which is well-supported by consensus, is that we do not put arbitrary embellishments into page names. The exceptions are there because in some cases we have decided that the embellishments are not arbitrary but rather necessary to show the pronunciation of the word (e.g. "eBay" or "IBM"), and they do nothing to undermine the general principle. If you disagree with the application of the rule in a specific case, you should discuss it with other editors of that page. If you disagree with the principle, then you should discuss it with other editors on WT:MOS-TM. Either way, this is not the appropriate venue to challenge the guideline. --erachima talk 12:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Definitely. This isn't the right talk page. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:17, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Buh? This is the page that gives the guideline the force of policy. 86.44.27.95 (talk) 21:35, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions for lists

About a month ago it was raised at WT:FLC#Laziness/repetition_in_names that the titles of list pages were all over the place. FLC has had nominations from Nashville Sounds seasons, List of The Neptunes awards, List of Denver Nuggets head coaches, List of Governors of Alaska, and List of Liverpool F.C. statistics and records. The question asked was shouldn't the titles be List of seasons of the Nashville Sounds, List of awards and nominations received by The Neptunes, List of head coaches of the Denver Nuggets, etc, with the reasoning that pages should be titled "List of x of y", instead of "List of y's xes" or, even worse, simply "y's xes". I've looked at Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (long lists) but they don't seem to address the problem. What is the correct way to title these pages? Thanks, Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 21:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I posted this here instead of at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (long lists) and Wikipedia talk:Lists (stand-alone lists), so as to not have two separate threads, and because this place probably gets more attention. I have left notes there pointing people to this discussion though. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 21:59, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Yesm, just looking at the FL page and you'll see how many different title formats are used. In my opinion there should be some consistency through WP and a NC policy should be created similar to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories). Most of the pages dealing with lists are outdated and useless. Eklipse (talk) 21:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Since the people who work with cats have fairly consistent names for them, they'd be the people I'd go to first for help. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 00:16, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

It may or may not help, but see WP:NCC#Lists for one WikiProject's solution.

And yes, list names have little standard usage, as bold creators typically don't check guidelines (even if they existed) for how such lists should be named.

Some fairly common formats are:

• List of <noun phrase> - List of cars
• List of <noun phrase> <prepositional phrase> - List of cars on the highway
• List of <noun phrase> who/which/that <verb phrase> - List of cars that fly
• List of <noun phrase> who/which/that <verb phrase> <noun phrase> - List of cars that are green
• List of <noun phrase> who/which/that <verb phrase> <prepositional phrase> - List of cars that fly in the rain

etc.

(A common addition is an adverb - List of cars that fly very fast - List of cars that fly only in the rain.)

Needless to say, these list examples would rather likely be deleted : )

I hope this helps. - jc37 08:02, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Also don't forget that many lists don't even have the list term in their title (Regions of Peru), and lists that begin with Timeline, Table. Yes, it's quite a mess. Eklipse (talk) 15:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

A bunch of comments:

1. I don't see any rationale for adding "list of" to the front of names of article that really can't be anything but lists, especially if they have been or could be expanded to not be simple lists, but blocks of paragraphs (bulleted or otherwise) of at least summary information. Regions of Peru and Nashville Sounds seasons seem like good examples. I'm not saying there cannot be a rationale, only that one hasn't been provided.
2. "List of x of y" is a good default (and is the default, as can be seen by simple observation of extant list articles), but insisting upon it without exception seems extreme. There "should be some consistency", yes, but not necessarily uniformity. "One size does not fit all" is a common MOS/NC mantra, and even applies in many cases to categories, which have the strictest naming conventions on WP.
3. It is especially clear that "List of x by y" is a common (and arguably needed) variant (a "List of songs by Van Halen" for example would not be the same as a "List of songs of Van Halen", because the band has done cover versions of some song, so these are not songs "of" them but "of" the original artist or "of" the songwriter, depending upon intrepretation.
4. Categories are not a particularly good comparison, as their needs are specialized and frankly the number of people devoted to bickering over categorization nitpicks is rather large, requiring an ever more detailed category naming convention to keep the fighting down to a manageable level.
5. I would say the same about mandatorily using the longest possible form of the title, e.g. List of head coaches of the Denver Nuggets vs. List of Denver Nuggets head coaches. The longer form is clearly preferable in some cases (List of Governors of Alaska works well, and List of The Neptunes awards certainly does not), but doesn't work so well in other cases like the head coaches example, which just comes off as longwindedness.
6. The fact that we have various means of being more specific (List of noun phrase who/which/that verb phrase prepositional phrase, and so on) isn't troubling to me. It simply indicates that we're flexible enough to make list names make sense.
7. There's nothing wrong with specialized lists beginning with different labels, such as "Glossary of", "Timeline of" or "Table of", as long as the descriptors actually match the contents. Being specific like this helpful to readers. Up to a point – we don't need people busting their brains trying to think up new ones just to avoid using "List of".
8. WP:NCC#Lists seems to me to be a rather misguided approach, as it is not sustainable (articles will have to be continuously renamed and/or characters moved from one list to another, e.g. every time a formerly comic-book-only character newly appears in a cartoon or movie, and so on.
9. Versions of names without the "List of" (etc.) should be redirects to the version with it, e.g. Baseball terms as a redir to Glossary of baseball terms, because the versions sans "List of" are at least fairly likely targets of URL guessing. I.e., think of the reader first.
10. Versions of names that do not quite follow the "List of x of y default, e.g., List of Denver Nuggets head coaches, should have redirs to them from the longwinded form (List of head coaches of the Denver Nuggets), because some readers will become aware of the default preference and expect it.
11. Versions of names that are likely guesses that readers will make should also redirect to the real list article name: List of Alaska Governors ⇒ List of Governors of Alaska
12. Versions of names in which readers may be uncertain of the capitalization should also redir to the real thing: List of Alaska governors and List of governors of Alaska ⇒ List of Governors of Alaska
13. I agree that "List of x's y" is generally too sloppy, and that the version without the "'s" will be usually (cf. the awards case; that phrase is so ambiguous I thought that "The Neptunes" were the awards!), but not always (cf. the head coaches example).

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 21:36, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Excellent points throughout. I'd be happy to shift this onto NCLL right now (obviously reworded from discussion-style to guideline-style. There is one other I'd like to add. Rachel Stevens discography, Nirvana discography et al should probably be Discography of Rachel Stevens and Discography of Nirvana, et al. I'll raise this point at WP:DISCOG and ask for their thoughts. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 05:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Related materials

Resolved

 – Just some pointers.

See also the #Page name grammar thread above, which is directly relevant. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

See also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (long lists)#Basic naming which advises on (some) cases where "List of" is not preferred. This was a clarification I added a week or two ago, based on observation of actual practice, and it has remained stable. WP:NCLL maybe should simply be made into WP:NCL, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (lists), with some points from WP:SAL, a style guideline, merged into it where they are actually about naming not about list style. I will propose that over at WT:NCLL. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:52, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move and merge

Resolved

 – Just a pointer to another discussion; merge proposal discussions are centralized at merge target's talk page.

I propose moving Wikipedia:Naming conventions (long lists), WP:NCLL, to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (lists), WP:NCLIST, and merging in the naming-related material from WP:SAL, since that is a style guideline. There is already a section at WP:NCLL on lists in general, so that is where this material would go. WP:NCLL and its longer name would redirect to the new name. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 22:55, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with that. It's time we gather and centralize all guidelines regarding lists into one page, or at most two pages (one dealing with naming convention, and one dealing with content and layout). Eklipse (talk) 11:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Resolved

Please do not use the {{Resolved}} template on this talk page , as nothing is ever resolved. There is either a current consensus to do something or there is not and that may change at an time. Editors are able to read the section and make up their own minds if the issue is resolved, (they do not need a template with a large tick in it to tell them if it is) and if they do not think it is resolved, they are free to add a comment at the end of a section without having to edit another editor's edit by removing the {{Resolved}} template --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:18, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

POV vs common usage

This question is mainly due to the very long discussion about naming over at Talk:2008 South Ossetia war. The discussion there has been inconclusive, mainly due to one fact: There is a title that is clearly the most common used one, but it is also claimed to be POV. Set aside for a second the special case and asume that title would indeed be POV and there exists another one, NPOV but rarely used. So the question is:

If the most commonly used English name for an article is POV, because the English speaking media as a whole is not neutral, and there exists a NPOV title that is not commonly used, which title should be used: The uncommon NPOV or the common POV one? --Xeeron (talk) 19:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

NPOV and accurate would seem to be the best choice. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

In terms of naming "accurate" is almost the same as "good", so that renders the question a bit irrelevant. Assume that none of the 2 titles is a particularly accurate summary of the article. --Xeeron (talk) 14:41, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Used WikiCleaner, please do not revert

Used WikiCleaner software to repair disambiguation links. Please do not revert back to the old links, see: Wikipedia:Disambiguation pages with links/Maintenance for more info. See also: Template:Main/doc for explanation to why the summary style was updated, as the format previously used was incorrect. From MOS/Context: Do not use a piped link to avoid otherwise legitimate redirect targets that fit well within the scope of the text. This assists in determining when a significant number of references to redirected links warrant more detailed articles. Funandtrvl (talk) 15:11, 7 October 2008 (UTC) Sections from "Name construction" on down still need to be updated. See the main MOS page for how to use the summary style. Also, the "Russian" and "Korean" sections, etc., should be combined with country-specific info or under the "people" section. Funandtrvl (talk) 15:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on naming - Crystal Palace transmitter or Crystal Palace transmitting station

A discussion has opened on the more appropriate naming of articles in Category:Transmitter sites in the United Kingdom. The discussion has been moved to Category talk:Transmitter sites in the United Kingdom. The essence of the discussion, is that:

• a) the term Crystal Palace transmitter or Foo transmitter is used more commonly than Crystal Palace transmitting station or Foo transmitting station and so fits with the advice of Wikipedia:Name#Use_the_most_easily_recognized_name.
• b) the term Crystal Palace transmitting station or Foo transmitting station is more technically accurate as the term Transmitter has a specific use which does not and should not be applied to the station as a whole. As this is a technical term, the naming policy does not apply.

The relevant wording of the advice from the Wikipedia:Naming conventions is:

Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

This is justified by the following principle:

The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists.

Wikipedia determines the recognizability of a name by seeing what verifiable reliable sources in English call the subject.

Reliable sources use both transmitter and transmitting station.

Input to the discussion is sought. SilkTork *^YES! 16:43, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

All I can suggest is using whichever gets the most Google hits (not very scientific, I know), and create a redirect using the alternative. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 06:00, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

naming convention question

Ragarding naming conventions as per WP:NAME,

Does prevalence of a name have higher priority than the official correct version of the name?

Example: Arkansas's state assembly has officially stated that "arkensaw" is the correct pronunciation, and specifically that the pronounciation "ar-kanzas" is incorrect. Now if someone made an article for Arkansas in some foreign wiki langauage, and literally named the article with the spelling that would give the pronunciation arkanzas (instead of the correct spelling that would give the pronunciation Arkensaw), citing prevalence as their reason, wouldnt they be incorrect? Does not being correct over-ride the prevalence criterion for naming convention?

Any takers?--129.111.69.67 (talk) 20:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.111.69.67 (talk)

That would be something the other wiki would have to deal with. Is there an example you can offer on the English pedia? --Golbez (talk) 21:42, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about pronunciation but this debate occurs all the time over at WP:RM, either to do with new spellings, or should names have modified letters. The Naming conventions cover this in detail. Use the name and spelling as used in reliable English language sources. Some examples (not all of which follow the naming conventions): Zürich, Kiev, Renaming of cities in India, Côte d'Ivoire, Burma --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Subpages

Please see Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (common names)#Subpages --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 10:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:Update

See WP:Update for the September changes to all the Category:Wikipedia content policy pages (including this one) and also the most generally-used style guidelines (called, unsurprisingly, Category:General style guidelines). If anyone wants to take on the job of updating monthly content policy at WP:Update, please reply at WT:Update. Obviously, since this page is in WP-space, anyone can make any edit at any time, but regular updaters would be nice. - Dan Dank55 (send/receive) 18:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Weird Al?

Per Wikipedia:NAME#Album and song titles and band names, and looking at the history at Whatever You Like ("Weird Al" Yankovic song), where should that article be found? Have I misinterpreted something? — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 06:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If your point is that the thing we're disambiguating from is also a song, then I see what you're getting at. I do read that section, however, as "if there is any need to disambiguate a song, then use (song) plus any extra words as necessary". Also, on a more personal level, I prefer to have parenthetical disambiguation, when possible, a description of what the subject is; it's a "Weird Al" Yankovic song, but it's not a "Weird Al" Yankovic. There are lots of exceptions to that out there, though. -- Jao (talk) 14:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Egyptian names

Why isn't Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Ancient Egyptian) listed on the article page? Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 12:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Ancient Egyptian) certainly should be! It's never been raised in the appropriate discussion forums, apparently. See Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Ancient Egyptian), and/or we can discuss it here. But I think The Pump is the place. Andrewa (talk) 13:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Why The Pump and not here? Doug Weller (talk) 14:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Either would do. I think we need to to post both eventually if this guideline is to become official. And it's been semi-official for a year now, so it's probably time it was decided.

And it's best to centralise discussion at one place IMO. But people don't always follow my advice. If for example we get a consensus here and no comments at The Pump (which has been known to happen) then no problem. Andrewa (talk) 19:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

And we have no response at all yet at The Pump. Patience...! Andrewa (talk) 19:07, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, we do now. Whew... Andrewa (talk) 12:08, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Mentioning "Wikipedia:Articles with slashes in title"

I propose that the project page have a linked mention of Wikipedia:Articles with slashes in title, with some kind of wording to advise editors to avoid creating new pages with slashes in their titles, except where they meet the same criteria that are already met by the ones listed on that page.

-- Wavelength (talk) 04:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

preemptiveness

I can't find any SOP for dissuading the preemptive disambiguation for titles, although I could swear we had one. Can anybody help me out here? — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 21:23, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Weird, I don't find it either (but of course, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:NC(CN) both point in that direction). There are some cases where specific naming guidelines actually mandate preemptive disambiguation for consistency reasons, such as Kennebunkport, Maine (as opposed to which Kennebunkport?) and Gustav III of Sweden (as opposed to Gustav III of what?), in which cases the "ambiguous" names redirect to the preemptively disambiguated ones. But I've always assumed these to be exceptions, and would have expected to find the general rule explicitly stated here. -- Jao (talk) 23:40, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It's probably incorrect to describe naming conventions as "preemptive disambiguation". In most cases they are simply guidelines for determining the proper name for a topic. Just because there is only one "Obama" doesn't mean that calling the article "Barack Obama" is preemptive disambiguation. Likewise for "Toyota Prius", etc. Naming conventions help ensure that article appear with logical, appropriate, and consistent names rather than whatever appears at the top of the Ghits pile on a particular day. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:48, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

It depends on the naming convention and the context. In your example, whether the article is at Obama or Barack Obama depends on what is the most common name used to refer to the topic, and that suggests Barack Obama. In many cases group-specific naming conventions are indeed "preemtive disambiguation" because they often require naming articles that conflict with the most common name used to refer to the subject of the article in question. In that case preemptive disambiguation only succeeds in ensuring articles are named after some arbitrary standard for some niche within Wikipedia, rather than consistent with the rest of Wikipedia (according to the most common used for the subject in question). And characterizing the most common name as "whatever appears at the top of the Ghits pile on a particular day" is not fair. Now, when the most common name is not clear, or it is ambiguous, then there is a need for naming convention. But not when the most common name is known and unavailable. --Serge (talk) 00:12, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I think you are correct. If you consider the naming convention to be part of the style sheet for the encyclopedia, the naming conventions then provide a consistent format for certain article types. This improves the look and quality of the encyclopedia and makes it look professional with a specific structure and not article names that appear to be random creations. One example is US radio stations where there name can be WWXX, WWXX-FM or WWXX (FM) depending on what is in the FCC data base and the need for disambiguation. Style considerations are not pre disambiguation. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:38, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Specifically I'm referring to TV episodes; the House WikiProject is moving the House episodes to titles all disambiguated with "(House)" regardless of the need. For example, the episode "Not Cancer" is actually located at Not Cancer (House) with the former being a redirect, despite nothing else corresponding with "Not Cancer" from which to disambiguate.

I thought this was counter-... well, counter-what-you're-supposed-to-do, but couldn't find any corroboration. Hence, I'm here. — pd_THOR ^{| =/\=} | 02:21, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, we went through this with the Lost episode articles, and the people who wanted to predisambiguate lost. Thankfully, the naming guidelines for TV episodes are consistent with WP:UCN, and clearly state the following: "For an article created about a single episode, add the series name in parentheses only if there are other articles by the same name" --Serge (talk) 03:06, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It happens with some rail stations and lines, like Lucien-L'Allier (AMT) (where there isn't even a redirect from the undisambiguated form). I raised it at [Trains WikiProject], but no-one replied. I should perhaps have raised it here instead! PamD (talk) 06:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Pam, your example, Blainville-Saint-Jérôme Line (AMT), with no redirect from Blainville-Saint-Jérôme Line, illustrates splendidly one problem (among many others) with naming conventions that predisambiguate. Articles are created in accordance with the predisambiguated name that conforms to the naming convention without taking care of the issues associated with the name that should be the title of the article (the name most commonly used to refer to the subject of the article). In this case the redirect at [[Commonname]] (i.e., Blainville-Saint-Jérôme Line) was not created. In another case there might be a dab page at [[Commonname]], but it's not updated with a reference to the article at the predisambiguated name. In yet another case another article might be at [[Commonname]] which should itself be moved to a disambiguated name to make room for a new dab page at [[Commonname]].

An example of the latter case is Plymouth. Because most U.S. cities are predisambiguated at [[Cityname, Statename]] and automobile brands are predisambiguated as [[Brandname (automobile)]] there appear to be no conflicts with Plymouth and so a small English city with that name is at Plymouth. I am trying to get that fixed at Talk:Plymouth (disambiguation), by the way (please contribute), but the real problem is all the predisambiguation that creates the environment in which stuff like your example and mine illustrate easily happens.

When editors create new articles that belong to a class of articles that are predisambiguated by convention, they are likely to simply and naturally create each article at [[Commonname (disambiguation qualifer)]] or [[Commonname, disambiguation qualifier]] (depending on how the class is disambiguated) and not even bother to deal with the Commonname issues. In fact, this is exactly why many editors prefer these predisambiguating conventions - they feel it makes their jobs easier. What most of them seem to not realize is that it makes it easier for them to fail at their jobs. In contrast, a class of articles in which the common name is used if possible, and the disambiguate form only used when required, the editor must always first check to see if [[Commonname]] is available, if it is another article (that possibly will need to be renamed, or have a hat note added to it, etc.), if it is a dab page, or what, and deal with it accordingly. In fact, I bet the guy who recently went through and disambiguated all the House episode articles hopes that new articles can simply be created as [[EpisodeName (House)]] without dealing with [[EpisodeName]] at all. I mean, maybe he'll check to see if it doesn't exist at all and create a redirect from [[EpisodeName]] to [[EpisodeName (House)]] (which the editor in your example failed to do), but odds are if [[EpisodeName]] already exists nothing else will be done (which the editors of the various Plymouth articles did - ignored Plymouth).

With respect to what's good and bad for Wikipedia, naming conventions that predisambiguate are evil. I hope enough editors realize this and take appropriate action, sooner rather than later. --Serge (talk) 07:33, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Evil? You're taking this way too seriously. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:48, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Not at all. I clearly specified the context: With respect to what's good and bad for Wikipedia. That is, to the extent that anything can be evil in Wikipedia, naming conventions that predisambiguate are evil. An analogous use of my intended meaning comes from an example from my dictionary: harmful or tending to harm: the evil effects of high taxes. --Serge (talk) 18:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not "predisambiguation is evil", I'm sure that "creating an article at "Foo (disamb)" or "Foo, placename" which is not linked from "Foo" should be strongly deprecated"! When stub-sorting, I tend to look for new stubs with a "(disamb)", and check to see that they're linked (by dab or hatnote) from the base heading - a worrying amount are not (until I fix them). That means that the reader typing "Foo" and clicking "Go" can't find them, and nor can the editor who's about to create a duplicate article at that title. PamD (talk) 11:56, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. My point is that the paradigm that goes with using and supporting predisambiguated naming conventions inherently ignores the common name issues, and thus exacerbates them. Please, go check out what's happening at Talk:Plymouth (disambiguation) right now. That is, even if the article you're creating or editing is in a class of names that are predisambiguated, you still have to determine the most common name for the subject of your article and make sure the subject of your article is appropriately managed through it. That's what gets overlooked and missed. That's why a relatively obscure (outside of the UK) city ends up being at Plymouth, and it's a huge effort to get it fixed, if it's possible at all. That's why predisambiguation is evil (in the sense that some believe taxes are evil). --Serge (talk) 18:10, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Calling the city "obscure (outside of the UK)" and this a situation that needs to be "fixed" is both unsubstantiated and makes this a non-neutral invitation to that debate. If you want to keep asking people here to participate, keep it completely neutral. Otherwise, please leave your comments for the correct venue where they are seen and scrutinised by all parties. Knepflerle (talk) 18:32, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

When a name is shared by an entity that is disambiguated (e.g., due to the predisambiguating naming convention of its class) with one in a class that does not predisambiguate, then the latter naturally and understandably tends to receive undue priority over the former. The examples of this are both subtle and countless, but the current debate at Talk:Plymouth (disambiguation) happens to be an excellent example of how the evil of predisambiguated naming conventions manifests and entrenches itself. English city names are not predisambiguated, but almost all U.S. cities are, as are most automobile manufacturers. This is a neutral page about naming conventions, and anyone reading this and invited to participate is just as likely to be biased one way as the other on these controversial subjects. --Serge (talk) 19:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No. The problem isn't where you were asking people to participate, or who you were asking, it was how you were asking - putting only one side of the argument forward in an unflagged discussion where it would not be seen, scrutinised or challenged - even if it is in a neutral venue. That is not on and explicitly discouraged at WP:CANVASS in terms of neutrality and transparency. Please do not do it again. Knepflerle (talk) 22:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

If "predisambiguation" is evil are all naming conventions evil too? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

No, only the ones that mandate predisambiguation are evil. I mentioned above the TV episode naming convention that specifies a convention for disambiguating (add name of TV series in parenthesis), but explicitly states it to be used only when there is a conflict for the name of the episode. That's a good naming convention. So are the ones used for most city names in the world... (the ones that allow disambiguating only when there is a conflict at [[Cityname]]). --Serge (talk) 19:19, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

It may be that some Naming conventions need to be displayed more clearly: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) includes the statement "Remember that the disambiguator should be added only if multiple articles would normally have the same name.", but only in the first paragraph where it's easy to miss if you jump straight to one of the sections on how to disambiguate specific entities (eg TV series), which don't mention the possibility of not disambiguating because it's included above! I moved La Fama (TV series) to La Fama earlier today, but then looked at its history and saw that someone had moved it in the other direction earlier citing "naming convention". Ah well. We'll never get all editors to follow all the rules/guidelines! PamD (talk) 15:32, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason we will never get all editors to follow all the rules/guidelines is because there are far too many rules and guidelines. This is why I am beginning to favor replacing all naming conventions and rules with the following, along with retaining the definitions of common name and primary usage:

The most common name used to refer to the subject of the article should be the title of the article. In addition, if the subject does not have primary usage of the name, then disambiguating information in parenthesis after the common name distinguishes the particular usage from the other uses of the name.

Examples: if the subject of a given article is the primary usage for its name then do not disambiguate it, as in Paris. If it is not the primary usage, but, for example, is the only city among all the uses, then use Name (city), as in Cork (city). If it's the only use that is a product brand, then use Name (brand). If there are several brands but this is the only automobile brand, then use Name (automobile brand). If it's a city, not the only city, but the only city in England, the U.S. or Vermont, then use Name (England city), Name (United States city), or Name (Vermont city) respectively.

I contend that this guideline already reflects how most articles are named, except for those classes of articles where predisambiguation is mandated, and for those in which names are disambiguated without parenthesis (with either a more precise name, with the comma convention, etc.).

Now, adoption this guideline would mean reviewing and possibly changing some or even all of the articles titles that share a given common name every time a new article is created with that name, but that naming review process should be gone though by the editor-creator of a new article anyway, and it's a good thing if a naming convention encourages editors to do what they are supposed to do. The notion that naming conventions that predisambiguate simplify things and reduce work is wrong - predismabugation only creates that illusion and discourages editors from doing the work they should be doing.

Think about it. The above two-sentence (not counting the examples) naming convention, or something very similar to it, could replace the entire complicated myriad of existing naming conventions that are becoming more and more impossible to comply with. --Serge (talk) 17:22, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

"Charlie" Gasparino

The article on the CNBC journalist goes by his nickname "Charlie." Shouldn't it be "Charles" and, if so, how does one fix? Thanks, --JohnnyB256 (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily. I'll answer at Talk:Charlie Gasparino. --Serge (talk) 15:25, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Serge. I've responded there. Thanks for the link to the more applicable naming page.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 15:36, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

National varieties of English

I suggest that we move the section Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#National varieties of English from the WP:UE guideline up into this policy under the section "General conventions" --PBS (talk) 13:16, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Concur. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:38, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Done --PBS (talk) 10:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

WP:Romanization

This may well be a useful list; and we should certainly check to see that all the individual language conventions are listed in one place. But do we need it, or should it be merged? Conversely, can the task of listing language conventions be dumped there? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:37, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Naming conventions redirects

See Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions/Archive 11#Naming conventions redirects and Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (common_names)#Naming conventions redirects --PBS (talk) 12:38, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Done. --PBS (talk) 09:55, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to reduce naming conflicts - avoid preemptive disambiguation

The current wording in the section on common names, Use common names of persons and things, is at the root of much conflict over article names. It currently states:

Convention: Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things; use the naming conflict guideline when there is a conflict. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded and must not carry POV implications.

Rationale and specifics: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)

The first clause, "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication", is at the root of most naming conflicts and arguments. For a category of names in which "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things" is generally difficult if not impossible to determine (names of royalty is a good example), other conventions are useful in providing naming guidance. But those cases are not exceptions to the common name convention, since "the most common name of a person or thing" is not determined and so cannot be used. Those are cases where the use-the-common-name guideline is insufficient, and more guidance is required.

But in those cases where the most common name is blatantly obvious, it should be used as the title of the article, period. That would eliminate all the back and forth arguing between those in favor of using the more common name and those in favor of using the more precise title per some predisambiguating format/convention.

Also, conventions that call for naming articles according to a particular preemptive disambiguation format instead of the most common name create situations where editors of articles with another use of that name are tempted to improperly claim primary usage for their article since the other article is at some other predisambiguated title. This problem surfaces time and time again, and would be eliminated if editors would look to the most common name for all articles as their default, and only resorted to the more detailed conventions and guidelines when disambiguation was required per the "when necessary" clause of WP:PRECISION: "Be precise when necessary".

As such, I propose changing the current wording with regard to common names to the following:

Convention: Whenever the most common name of an article topic is known, and it does not conflict with the names of other article topics, use it as the name of the article. When the most common name cannot be determined, or it conflicts with other notable uses of that name, other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions should provide appropriate guidance; use the naming conflict guideline when there is a conflict. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded and must not carry POV implications.

Rationale and specifics: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names)

Note that I am also proposing we replace the "person or thing" wording with the more general "article topic" term.

There is always resistance to change, but it is worth it when it reduces work and conflict in the long run. This approach has been proven to reduce conflict on a smaller scale (such as for TV episode article names which explicitly states that editors "should avoid preemptive disambiguation"). With that proven success, what I'm proposing here is essentially uniformly applying that simple rule, "avoid preemptive disambiguation", for all articles in Wikipedia.

Of course, corresponding changes to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names) and other affected convention pages to be in compliance with this policy change are implied.

Comments? --Born2cycle (talk) 20:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It's a bad idea, Serge, even if "person or thing" is replaced by "article topic".

It has not significantly reduced edit wars on TV episodes, as the major wars on those are not the name, but whether an episode article should be summarily merged into the article on the season (US)/series (UK) or series (US)/programme (UK). That war has resumed, in spite of 3 RfAr's. (The question of whether EpName may better refer to EpName (Show1) than EpName (Show 2) even if EpName (Show1) redirects to Show1 (season 2) also would be a cause of edit wars....)

I don't have a specific proposal at the moment, but I suggest that it be made clear that project-specific protocols be specifically allowed to override the anti-disambiguation clause of WP:NC(CN). As an extreme case, we used to have articles for "Highway 23 (King's highway, Ontario)", or something like that. It's now "Highway 23 (Ontario)", but it could just as easily be "Highway 23 (King's highway)" under your guideline, as there might be no other Wikipedia article on a "King's Highway" which is route 23.

I suggest, at a minimum, that the convention be changed to:

Convention: Whenever

1. the most common name of an article topic is known,
2. the article topic is the most common use of that name,
3. and the name does not conflict with the names of other article topics,

use it as the name of the article, unless a specific protocol specifies otherwise. When conditions 1, 2, and 3 are not all met, other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions should provide appropriate guidance; use the naming conflict guideline when there is a conflict. Where articles have descriptive names, the given name must be neutrally worded and must not carry POV implications.

Commentary on this proposal: It explicitly allows other guidelines to override WP:CN(NC). Clause 2 specifies not only is the topic known by the name, but someone seeing the name would expect to see the topic. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:16, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Preemptive disambiguation is not the cause of this problem. In fact if preemptive disambiguation was the rule there would be almost no problems. Disambiguation does place articles that were not disambiguated in a position of power and gives them the ability to resist moving to a disambiguated name even when other guidelines call for this to happen. If we are going to change any wording, that change needs to make clear that disambiguated pages must be considered as rightful candidate for the main name space. The article at the main name space does not enjoy any special privilege by currently being at the main name space. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:27, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I should have requested a clarification of the current guidelines to add clause 2. Vegaswikian has a proposal for a completely different part of WP:NC, which I also agree with. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Arthur, of course my proposed change is not a panacea that would eliminate all edit wars. It wouldn't even eliminate all debate over naming (the issue of whether a given usage is primary, for example, would still have to be resolved the same regardless of whether we go ahead with this change or leave it the way it is, or go with your suggestion). But, in cases where there are no conflicts with the most common name of a given topic, it should eliminate debate over whether the article's title should be it's common name or follow some predisambiguated format. Again, I point to the TV episodes for where exactly that has occurred. Since your proposal includes the clause, "unless a specific protocol specifies otherwise", it perpetuates all problems caused by predisambiguation.

Vegaswikian, you say predisambiguation is not the cause of "the problem". What do you mean by "the problem"? The problem of debates over whether an article's title should be it's common name or follow some predisambiguated format is certainly caused by the practice of predisambiguation. You recognize the problem of predisambiguated articles being at a "power" (your word) disadvantage compared to topics with the same name that are not predisambiguated, which is why you contend that if predisambiguation would be the rule then there would be almost no problems. How so? Say one use of A is predisambiguated to A (B) and so is at a disadvantage to any other use of A which is not predisambiguated. The other uses of A, even if the A at A, B is more common or even the primary usage, will try to be at A. You contend that if the other uses were predisambiguated too, say at A, C and A, D, then there would be no problem. Again, I ask, how so? The issue of which one, if any, is primary use still has to be dealt with. Should A be a dab page, or redirect to one of the disambiguated As? All predisambiguation does is obscure these issues and make them much less likely to be noticed and managed correctly. What only disambiguate when necessary accomplishes is that it forces editors to deal with, and resolve, these issues, one way or another. Partial predisambiguation creates the obscuring problem, and universal predisambiguation (assuming it were even practically possible, which it is not) would only make it worse.

You suggest that the wording state clearly "that disambiguated pages must be considered as rightful candidate for the main name space", which would be useful and helpful assuming the problem is noticed. But only if the rule is only disambiguate when necessary will many of these cases even be noticed. Look at how many years went by before anyone noticed the conflict with the city in England being at Plymouth. Sure, once it was noticed maybe the wording you suggest would have helped our position, but if the U.S. cities were not automatically predisambiguated this problem (and a myriad of others) could and would have been nipped in the bud. That's one of the problem with predisambiguation. It obscures naming conflicts. The other problem is it creates unnecessary debate. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Copy and past from Wikipedia_talk:Naming conventions (common_names)#Proposal to change nutshell wording:

Whenever the most common name of a person or thing is known, and it does not conflict with the names of other notable people or things, use it as the name of the article would mean that the article William I of England would be move to William the Conqueror. It would negate many other conventions and guidelines to the conventions. If that is to be contemplated it should be done on the policy page and very widely advertised. --PBS (talk) 18:41, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, this page is a convention page, but not a policy page like WP:NC. But I'll take the proposal up there. And yes, I do think it's a mistake to have William the Conqueror at William I of England, though the problem of defaulting to something other than the most common name is not as evident in some classes of names (like names of royalty) as it is in others, but it does establish precedent that often leads to conflict. Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll add that in addition to obscuring naming conflicts and creating unnecessary debate, a third problem created by predisambiguation is that the practice makes Wikipedia titles much less reliable for readers to determine the most common names of topics. If only disambiguate when necessary was the rule, then Wikipedia article titles could be relied on to convey the most common name of the given topic to the reader. Not only that, but all titles would instantly convey whether the given topic is the primary use of that name or not (if it's not disambiguated then it is the primary use, if it's disambiguated then there is at least one other usage significant enough to make this one not primary). That is currently the case with TV episode names. For example, simply because the House episode 97 Seconds is not disambiguated, we know that not only is 97 Seconds its most common name (if not its only name), but that this topic is the primary use of that name. There is no notable restaurant, bar or hotel named 97 Seconds, no film, book, play or computer game, with that name, nothing else. We know all that simply because TV episode names follow the disambiguate only when necessary rule. If House episodes were predisambiguated, so that this article was at 97 Seconds (House), we could not tell from the title alone anything about any other potential uses of 97 Seconds. For a name within a category that predisambiguates, like royalty names, we just don't know. To use Philip's example from above, the article title William I of England tells us nothing about the most common name for that ruler (which happens to be William the Conqueror, much less whether this article has primary use of that name. All that information about common names and primary use that is easily and implicitly automatically conveyed in articles titles when we have only disambiguate when necessary, is lost because of the practice of predisambiguation. And this is not only potentially valuable information to the reader, but any editor creating an article whose common name may already be used benefits from clarity in naming in this area.

And a fourth problem with predisambiguation is that the practice creates orphans - disambiguated articles without proper links from the common name. For example, if House articles were predisambiguated, 97 Seconds (House) might easily exist without even a redirect or dab link from 97 Seconds, which is the case for countless articles that belong to classes of names that are predisambiguated.

And a fifth problem is the one pointed out by Vegaswikian - predisambiguation of one class of articles gives undue priority to alternate uses of that name for an article that does not predisambiguate.

So there you have the five problems of predisambiguation, all explained in detail above:

1. creating countless unnecessary debates over whether the most common name should be used for a given article, or the predisambiguated name according to some convention for a class of articles to which that article belongs.
2. obscuring naming conflicts
3. makes Wikipedia titles much less reliable for readers and editors to determine the most common names of topics
4. creates "orphans" - articles at predisambiguated titles without appropriate links/references from the undisambiguated name.
5. gives undue priority for claiming primary usage for names by topics that don't belong to a class that is predisambiguated.

All these problems can be easily resolved by universally adopting the simple rule of disambiguate only when necessary (and wouldn't exist if that rule would have been adopted universally in Wikipedia from the beginning). To resolve all these problems, I urge everyone to give serious thought to adopting the policy change I'm proposing at the top of this section. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:26, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, your attempt to implement this in WP:PLACES is exactly what is causing the edit wars. If you hadn't started it, then US cities would be located at City, State and there wouldn't have been a problem. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:45, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, please. As if I'm the only one proposing and supporting the movement of U.S. cities which have primary usage for their names to [[Cityname]]. I was mostly dormant on that issue for over a year during which time there were quite a number of attempts to have various cities moved, some of which recently succeeded, until finally someone proposed moving the entire so-called AP list. That would have all happened without me (it did happen without me); you can't seriously believe one Wikipedian could have so much influence, that without my efforts over there there wouldn't have been an issue. That's ridiculous. Yes, I defend my positions with consensus-supported assumptions, logic and reason (because that's how I form my opinions, including the one behind this proposal), but, if anything, my overbearing style probably backfires with respect to persuading others. But the fact that all those moves were proposed -- how many times did people propose moving just Los Angeles, California to Los Angeles? Four? Five? -- and debated, is evidence that supports point #1 in the list of problems created by predisambiguation I listed above. And that's evidence from just one subcategory of names. Similar examples can be found in just about any category that predisambiguates, and will continue to be produced (along with causing the other problems in the list above) as long as we continue to have naming conventions that disambiguate preemptively. Note that categories of names that do not predisambiguate do not have these recurring debates. Anyway, this isn't about me. Please stop with the ad hominem attacks and address the proposal and supporting argument I have presented above. Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:52, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I would gladly support this proposal if it applied only to parenthetical disambiguation. I would assume when seeing 97 Seconds (House) that there's another 97 Seconds. I can't say I have a real problem with Kennebunkport, Maine and Gustav V of Sweden though. -- Jao (talk) 12:42, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Why the distinction with parenthetical disambiguation? If a given topic has a clear and obvious most common name, then either its article title is that, or it is disambiguated. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose - Also, as someone wise once noted: redirects are cheap. So (to use an example above) place the article at Los Angeles, California (as is the - wait for it - common convention for cities in the U.S.), and have any number of redirects, as appropriate. - jc37 12:53, 8 November 2008 (UTC)
  • It is true that redirects are cheap and they solve search problems - when and if editors remember and bother to create the appropriate redirects (and/or dab page references). Problem #2 in the list is that preemptive disambiguation obscures naming conflicts. In fact, one of the appeals of preemptive disambiguation is the misconception that predisambiguation allows the new article creator to avoid the hassles of dealing with naming conflicts because he can use a predetermined/reserved/unique name that almost certainly has no conflicts. This is a fallacy that the wise editors of TV episodes recognized. Predabbing saves you nothing. You still have to check and see if the most common name for the topic is available, and, if it is, create a redirect there. If it's already being used, then you still have to deal with the conflicts, starting with determining which use, if any, is primary, and create all the appropriate dabs/references to the relevant pages. That predisambiguation saves the creator from any of this work is not only a myth, but the notion is detrimental to Wikipedia since it inhibits editors from doing this necessary work by allowing them to easily create articles without doing it. Dealing with the conflicts becomes drudgery and a low priority. In contrast, the practice of disambiguate only when necessary forces the article creator to deal with the potential naming conflict issues before creating the article - it makes it a priority. That's what I mean by preemptive disambiguation obscuring naming conflicts, and one of the reasons why editors of TV episodes dispensed with the practice. --Born2cycle (talk) 15:12, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

comment on All predisambiguation does is obscure these issues and make them much less likely to be noticed and managed correctly. The only place were I know we defininately predisambiguate as a rule is numerical divisions and royal names. The reason for this is that if I put in the 240th Division and it is a red link, then when someone gets around to writing the article the link may or may not point to the correct article. Having a determined disambiguation format (see for example 10th Division) helps the editor, who knows the rule from Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Style guide#Naming conventions to link to the correct article, if the article exists or if it is created in the future. Similar considerations are true for the naming of kings and queens, the rules help people to navigate more quickly once they know the rule and redirects take care of the rest. An exception is made for "If a monarch or prince is overwhelmingly known, in English, by a cognomen, it may be used, and there is then no need to disambiguate by adding Country." (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)). User:Born2cycle you, have highlighted some of the general problems of predisambiguation, and perhaps we need a sentence about it in the section "Be precise when necessary" or in one of the guidelines linked to that section. --PBS (talk) 15:16, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Philip, with my proposed change the first clause would be, Whenever the most common name of an article topic is known, .... With numbered divisions and almost all royalty names the most common name of the topic is not known, certainly not widely known, and so other guidance would be sought. Same with highways and any other class of names for which the most common name is not clear and obvious. But topics that have actual well known primary distinctive names, like famous people, books, films, most places, etc., they would go by their most common name, unless there was a conflict with other uses of that name to work out. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, royalty, some place names (most of the US, almost all of Canada and Australia), and highways are predisambiguated, that I know of. (In regard highways, if we, at the moment, only have one route 7105, doesn't mean that another one won't appear.) It's not done using our usual Wikipedia disambiguation conventions, but using WikiProject Highways conventions, but it's still preemtive disambiguation. Perhaps disambiguate when likely to become ambiguous in a predictable manner would be a better general guideline than disambiguate only when necessary. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

So if there was only one route 7105, you'd insist that the title be route 7105 rather than Texas state route 7105? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:40, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

If there was consensus that the most common name used to refer to the highway was Route 7105 then I would argue that the article about it should be at Route 7105, unless there was a conflict over that name with other uses and there was consensus that this highway 7105 was not the primary use. If the most common name was Route 7105 but it was at Texas state route 7105 with a redirect from Route 7105, then if some other article whose topic name is Route 7105 is created, it would be tempting for the editors of that article to note that Route 7105 is merely a redirect to Texas state route 7105 (thus implying that Route 7105 is a considered to be a name of secondary priority to the Texas highway), and to replace it with an article about the new South African highway. That's the problem with predisambiguation; this kind of thing happens time and time again because of it. If you don't see this pattern at WP:RM, you're just not paying attention.

What would be much better is if initially the article was at Route 7105 with a redirect from Texas state route 7105. Then, if and only if another topic whose name is Route 7105 (could be a movie, book, or whatever, as well as another highway) becomes sufficiently notable to warrant a Wikipedia article, the editors seeking to create that article will naturally look at Route 7105 and initiate a discussion about whether the existing article should be moved to Texas state route 7105, or whether the Texas highway has primary use and so the new usage should be referenced via a hat note at Route 7105. That's a necessary discussion and it's good if the naming conventions force necessary discussions to occur (which is exactly what disambiguate only when necessary accomplishes). What we want to avoid is naming conventions that obscure conflicts and create inconsistent/unresolved situations, which is what the practice of disambiguate when merely likely to become ambiguous causes). --Born2cycle (talk) 06:50, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

To completely answer your question, Arthur, if consensus was that Route 7105 was not the most common name used to refer to the one and only topic ever referred to as Route 7105 (and I agreed with that consensus), then I would not argue that Route 7105 should be the title. If no distinctive common name could be agreed upon, that would be a case where "other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions should provide appropriate guidance" (wording from my proposed change to this common name policy), and I would favor Texas state route 7105 or whatever title the appropriate convention indicated. --Born2cycle (talk) 16:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguate when likely to become ambiguous is pre-emptive (i.e., unnecessary) disambiguation and creates the very list of five problems I'm trying to address/resolve with this proposal. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:13, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. I ask other editors to see whether the hypothetical route 7105 discussion above shows that Serge's (umm, Born2cycle's) proposal supports edit wars, and, perhaps more importantly, incorrect links. If Utah state route 7105 were to exist but not be considered notable, and an article on Utah referred to route 7105, it would be better for all if it (the article route 7105) were a red link or a 1-item disambiguation page, rather than a redirect. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Arthur, I did not understand you were suggesting in your hypothetical that route 7105 remain a red link or become a 1-item dab page. So, how would you keep editors from "fixing" the red link by creating the "missing" redirect, or from "improving" the 1-item dab page into a redirect? Relying on red links to remain red, and for 1-item dab pages to not be converted to redirects, seem like unnatural and unenforceable practices, even if some others agreed that they had merits. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:21, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a problem; the redirect should be deleted and possibly salted as being intrinsicly misleading except as a dab page, and 1-item dab pages should be explictly allowed. But that's a proposal for modifying other guidelines, and not really appropriate for discussion here. The bot-assisted disambiguation-link-removal process would gradually fix the links to [[route 7105]] to [[Texas state route 7105|route 7105]] or redlinks as appropriate, if it remained a 1-item dab. Your proposal wouldn't help. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

My proposal wouldn't help what? With the red link and 1-item dab page problems created by your proposal? You're right, but with my proposal they would not exist. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This seems like a proposal for increasing naming conflicts, not for reducing them. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:49, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I've explained in detail why the proposal would decrease naming conflicts. Please explain why you think they would be increased. Remember that putting an article at a predabbed name does not reduce by one iota any conflicts the most common name for that topic has with other topics; if it does anything predabbing only obscures these problems. So you're right, it may seem like this proposal would increase naming conflicts, but that's because the conflicts would no longer be obscured by the predabbing. But it wouldn't actually increase the conflicts. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

It's a solution in search of a problem. Give me a holler if this ever comes to a vote. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to accept that you (Serge) believe that your proposal would reduce disputes, but I see no evidence for it, and have seen evidence against in the US settlement area. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:52, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

And I'm willing to accept that you believe that this proposal would not reduce disputes, but I see plenty of evidence for it (and not just in the US settlement area), and am not aware of any evidence against. Hopefully we can at least agree that both of us can't be right about this. For the US settlement area, look no further than archives of the following discussion pages for plenty of evidence caused by predisambiguation of US cities: Talk:Los Angeles, Talk:Miami, Talk:Chicago, Talk: New Orleans, Talk:Boston, Talk: San Francisco, Talk:Seattle... need I go on? Not quite as obvious, but perhaps even more damaging, is that the preemptive disambiguation of U.S. cities is arguably a significant contributory cause for problems such as that illuminated by the recent naming dispute at Talk:Plymouth, where the naming conflicts with the city in England were obscured and missed for many years due to preemptive disambiguation of all U.S. settlements, including those named Plymouth, and the editors of the city in England have essentially homesteaded Plymouth as a result. Can you cite the evidence that you believe shows that my proposal would not reduce disputes in the long run? (granted they are likely to increase in the short run until the consistency of uses the most common name; don't disambiguate unless necessary is understood and appreciated by a plurality of editors). --Born2cycle (talk) 04:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Will, a solution in search of a problem? I've listed, numbered and explained the five problems of disambiguation above that this proposal would solve. --Born2cycle (talk) 04:53, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• Comment User:Born2cycle a point I think we need to consider is cultural (and which is currently reflected in the settlements guideline). The U.S. has a tradition of naming cities by city and state (apart from a few well known ones as highlighted by the current settlements guideline. In Britain and Ireland, this is not the case. Most British people would never write York, Yorkshire, or an Irish person Limerick,Limerick. In a similar way cities such as Hastings, New Zealand are named after the country, (see WP:NC (New Zealand)) but the WP:NC (settlements) explicitly says for the U.S. "United States city's article should never be titled "city, country"" (why not unless it is because Americans think it looks odd?) To insist that Plymouth and Limerick, are moved seems to me to have problems which clash with national varieties of English and I think is reflected in the recent move debate. This is not to say that there is a hard and fast rule over this and common sense has to be applied. For example few if any editors are likely to want to move Boston, Lincolnshire to Boston because an unqualified use of the word Boston anywhere in the English speaking world including England would refer to the US city. Just in passing I hear on US films people referring to "Jersey" when they mean "New Jersey" does anyone ever refer to "York" when they mean New York or is York well enough known to Americans who live in NY to cause confusion? --PBS (talk) 10:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• The cultural differences with respect to disambiguating/qualifying city names are very real and I certainly do not mean to imply there aren't any, or they aren't very important. Of course they are. But these differences should only be relevant when disambiguation/qualification is necessary (per WP:PRECISION). This is why, for example, the city in Ireland is not at Cork, Ireland or Cork, County Cork or Cork, Munster, but at Cork (city). But regardless of the culture the most common name used to refer to any city anywhere is, well, the name of the city. So when disambiguation/qualification/precision is not necessary, and the name of a given city has primary use for that name, then, to be consistent with widespread Wikipedia naming conventions and guidelines, the title of that article should be the name of that city, without qualification. That's just applying the more general rule to city names, the more general rule being: when disambiguation/qualification/precision is not necessary, and the topic of a given article has primary use for the name most commonly used to refer to it, then the title of that article should be that name, without qualification. If, instead, we use preemptive disambiguation that adds precision when not necessary to the most common name not only contrary to the basic notion of this policy, but also in violation of WP:PRECISION, the we foster the creation and perpetuation of the five problems of predisambiguation (see above). --Born2cycle (talk) 17:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• It would be more impressive if someone agreed with you in this thread. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 18:10, 10 November 2008 (UTC)