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If all of the women on this list voluntarily made public the information that they had an abortion I think it is highly specious of us to try to protect them from themselves. [[User:Geo Swan|Geo Swan]] ([[User talk:Geo Swan|talk]]) 15:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
If all of the women on this list voluntarily made public the information that they had an abortion I think it is highly specious of us to try to protect them from themselves. [[User:Geo Swan|Geo Swan]] ([[User talk:Geo Swan|talk]]) 15:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

*'''Delete'''. Abortion is still a procedure that carries considerable stigma in religious areas such as the American Bible Belt, because a large number of people equate it to murdering a baby, and the doctors who perform it and women who have it done as murderers. As long as this attitude exists, there is a potential for discrimination against the women, precisely why this topic is so controversial. This differentiates it from other medical procedures like the aforementioned kidney transplant, which fewer people would argue against, or be horrified by, if it was needed. People do not face the same judgment for the latter but certainly are discriminated against for the former. I don’t believe that every woman in this list voluntarily made the information available, (do you think all of the dead women or their families would’ve been comfortable with them being in this list?) and some who did had absolutely no intention of doing so prior to the current climate in the US due to abortion laws changing. I know that part of this argument is that the public revelation of women’s abortions to remove the stigma from them is what some feel is the whole point of having a list like this, but I do not see how it positively contributes to Wikipedia as an encyclopedia outside of being an activist campaign, I see it more as a fighting point for editors and vandals, as well as - for lack of a better way to express my thoughts - the same kind of derision as [[slut-shaming]]. I have no problem with the information being put into individual women’s articles as they choose to reveal it, I just feel that a collective list could be more damaging than positive; I can easily see the collection of names becoming part of Christian online magazines or extremist websites which could be used as a blacklist or even cause physical harm to the people on the list, or possibly affect employment. I also agree with ToniBallioni’s various points. For the record, I’ll state that I’m a pro-choice non-denominational Christian, so please don’t make assumptions or accusations about anyone’s vote. [[User:LovelyLillith|LovelyLillith]] ([[User talk:LovelyLillith|talk]]) 20:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Revision as of 20:55, 27 May 2019

List of celebrities who have had an abortion

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List of celebrities who have had an abortion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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This is basically trivia and I can't imagine many entries on here will be significant enough that it should be included in their article much less an entire list and is just a massive BLP vio waiting to happen. Praxidicae (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that was fast. This list is highly relevant to an important social issue. You may have missed it but celebrities are engaged in a campaign to publicize their abortions and the impact they have had on their life. Many of them describe their abortions as the best or most important decision they ever made. That seems significant enough to include in their own Wiki pages, and to categorize into a list.Scribestress (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how this is WP:DEFINING for most people on this list for the same reason I don't think saying Minka Kelly is of Irish descent because her third great grandmother was Irish would be relevant (that's not actually the case in her article but elsewhere.) I think your statement about "relevant to an important social issue" is also a violation of WP:NPOV as Wikipedia isn't a WP:SOAPBOX. I respect that it's a contentious issue but ultimately, Wikipedia and specifically WP:BLP's are meant to be neutral and it's not a defining characteristic of most of these people and "celebrities" is completely arbitrary. This also sums it up well. Praxidicae (talk) 15:46, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Scribestress, in addition to the issues Praxidicae laid out, there’s the fact that this page is basically an invitation for libel (ex. anti-abortion movie star gets added to the list with no reliable source and it doesn’t get caught for months) and pretty big invasions of privacy of living persons. I’m not commenting on the deletion per se, but you have to see that this list poses a ton of ethical issues considering Google will index it and we’re the fifth largest website in the world. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:58, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TonyBallioni you say we have to see this article "poses a ton of ethical issues". Sorry, I don't see that, at all. A malicious vandal can try to sabotage any of our several million articles, without regard to whether or not we keep this one. Have there been occasions when we had to delete an article, on a completely notable topic, because we were unable to prevent it from being vandalized? I dunno. Surely semi-protection, or full-protection, should have been tried first. I don't think have ever heard of us deleting an article on a notable topic because someone claimed it MIGHT be vandalized. Geo Swan (talk) 04:21, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've replied to you below your comment so it is more likely to be read. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:37, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that someone had an abortion is simply a fact about them, like being Irish or living in Canada. And creating a list is neutral -- it is simply listing people who share a common trait, full stop. I don't see an invasion of privacy concern or any libel liability here because each of these celebrities have openly stated the fact that they had an abortion. Truth is a complete defense to a claim of libel.Scribestress (talk) 16:18, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And you've just explained exactly why it's unencylopedic. For the same reason we wouldn't write about when someone had their first pap smear even if they tweeted about it. It's trivial and WP:NOTDEFINING. Praxidicae (talk) 16:23, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Scribestress, yes, but this is an open wiki, which means that anyone, not just you, can edit the list and add anything they like to it and there’s very little we can do technically to stop them. The fact that you haven’t libeled anyone or invaded their privacy doesn’t change the fact that the list itself is basically an invitation to all the malcontents of the world to do exactly that. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:27, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Praxidicae I'm still baffled as to why this is WP:NOTDEFINING. When someone says "this changed my life," it is discussed in national news media (NYT, NPR, Forbes, etc.), and included in briefs before the US Supreme Court (see Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt), how can it be WP:NOTDEFINING?Scribestress (talk) 03:57, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 17:01, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see an issue with merging the list into either of the pages mentioned by 9H48F. It seems best to do this while the article is still small. What's the best way to do it? Scribestress (talk) 17:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly oppose this as it's given undue weight and all celebrities aren't American and "celebrities who had abortions" is a pretty trivial topic. Praxidicae (talk) 17:47, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree and would re-frame this article from "celebrities who had abortions" to "publicizing an individuals abortions" or something along those lines. The context as to why celebrities and regular individuals are publicizing their abortions is missing and just creating a list of celebrities who have had abortions is encyclopedic (as mentioned by others) but this could support information within the Abortion debate. 9H48F (talk) 18:06, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Again, a single tweet with no other significance is giving too much WP:WEIGHT in even a generic or broad article. Unless the "celebrity" is somehow notable for their activism I don't see why we would include this anymore than we should include "this celebrity tweeted they had their first pap smear at 21!" Praxidicae (talk) 18:12, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Tweets and any other citations from social media should be removed. There are some reliable sources on the page that could be used 9H48F (talk) 18:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Can you point me to the standard for triviality? Thanks.Scribestress (talk) 17:54, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You can start with the links in my nomination as well as subsequent comments about defining characteristics, which also apply to lists and WP:WEIGHT. I strongly advise you to stop canvassing. And while we're at it WP:INDENT. Praxidicae (talk) 18:00, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is a related page that goes into the context others have asked for, You Know Me movement. Propose a merger with that page.Scribestress (talk) 18:29, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are really missing the point Scribestress. There's nothing to merge, the fact that a dozen notable people tweeted they had an abortion while interesting is not inherently encyclopedic and just adding it on the basis that they said it is giving it undue weight, not to mention the massive WP:BLP and WP:NPOV issues. Praxidicae (talk) 18:32, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Respectfully you're missing the point Praxidicae. It's more than a dozen notable people on Twitter. There are over a hundred women on the list. Many of them made a public declaration in the 1970s, either in Ms. magazine or the Manifesto of the 343 published in France. These were not flippant declarations or intended to be taken lightly. They are part of history. At the time they were taken seriously ... it's too bad that in 2019 they are being dismissed as "trivial."Scribestress (talk) 05:13, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I just...what? How does that make any sense? Praxidicae (talk) 19:05, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to know how you even came to this conclusion. --Ⓩⓟⓟⓘⓧ Talk 19:19, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know how to explain that there are many WP:BLP problems with the current article. My proposed redirect target includes only those women who decided to put it into a song, rendering BLP concerns moot. wumbolo ^^^ 20:55, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
uh. No. That’s a list of songs about abortion and doesn’t mean that anyone on it had one. I don’t think anyone on this list is even on that one. Praxidicae (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
According to that list, many of them had an abortion. And these are the only two lists of abortions currently on Wikipedia. wumbolo ^^^ 21:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can't tell if you're being serious or not but that isn't remotely true and just a glance of the list tells you that. The bulk of the entries are about men or majority male groups and probably half are about pro-life stances. Praxidicae (talk) 13:44, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have lost any patience here, and I don't care that much about a single redirect. Everything I have said is supported by the articles, but if everyone disagrees without reading the articles in question, I do not care. wumbolo ^^^ 14:42, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep After following the conversation, I realized how much more notable creating a list on this topic being that individuals announcing their abortions spans decades (almost 50 years!). In reorganizing the table, it's also apparent that having an abortion does affect the person and is not just a medical procedure. Individuals who have had an abortion often use the experience to engage in activism - both for and against abortion - AND/OR it affects their career (re: if they became a parent, they would likely not be notable) which is WP:DEFINING. It is also notable in the illegality of the procedure and signers of the Manifesto 343 and the Ms. campaign both risked being charged (as well as those who had an abortion prior to legalization). The lead here could be better written to reflect the notability of the list. The title, of course, needs to be more appropriate as discussed. Scribestress, I would recommend making use of draftspace or your sandbox in the future so flags aren't thrown on the onset and you can create a comprehensive article without unnecessary scrutiny. 9H48F (talk)
@Reywas92: I'm interested in what you think of recent changes, e.g. to the title and adding categories. Other ideas on improvement welcome.Scribestress (talk) 01:00, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's obvious you're new to Wikipedia - no other article in the project begins with "List of famous" and I don't know why you didn't use the name I suggested that is consistent with other articles ("List of women" would work too; limiting the list to those with articles implies only WP:NOTABLE people are included). It's unfortunate that "celebrity" has poisoned the waters as many others are seeing this as a tabloid and it appears too late to turn it around. But I thank you for your good faith contributions to the project and I encourage you to continue editing, perhaps by including some names in the related articles that have been mentioned. Discussion in a talk page could let you perhaps continue the list in the userspace after this is over. Cheers, Reywas92Talk 01:19, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reywas92 Definitely new. Loving the warm Wikipedia welcome. There are a number of lists of celebrities actually (search "list of celebrities ..." and you'll find them), and the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people is limited to "notable" people, so I don't see why that alone would be problematic. What am I missing? I take the comments here actually to point to a different problem with listing famous people -- privacy. We may be able to address that by protecting the page. Still, I'm happy to move the page again to remove "famous" from the title and simplify things. Can you tell me what you have in mind about "continue[ing] the list in the userspace?" Thanks.Scribestress (talk) 02:13, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete – this would be inappropriate as a category per WP:DEFINING. As a list, it is both unencyclopedic and a potential BLP violation. Basically, I can't imagine how this information could be informative or put to good use, but I can think of lots of reasons why it is a Very Bad Idea. – bradv🍁 19:36, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kill it with fire and salt especially in light of the recent abortion controversy. Yikes! – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 21:49, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    A slightly more nuanced view: it is unfortunate that society attaches such a stigma towards abortion, but Wikipedia is not here to right great wrongs of the world. Even if such a list is in theory encyclopedic, verifiable, and notable as a list, the potential risks and BLP disasters that would be in tandem with it make it more trouble than it's worth. A good comparison would be to infamous internet figure Christine Weston Chandler, who almost certainly passes WP:GNG at this point but whose article on here would attract too many trolls for it to be worthwhile and is therefore rightfully salted.

    However, even neglecting all of that, a celebrity getting an abortion is either a) none of anybody's business, or b) announced by the celebrity herself, in which case it should be covered briefly on that celebrity's article and not anywhere else. Either way, it's not WP:DEFINING and thus isn't a good list topic. (NOTE:If this article is kept, it should be at least semi-protected to mitigate what Nate rightfully called a "BLP minefield.") – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 17:57, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@John M Wolfson: I understand the concern about how the page could be used nefariously, e.g. if someone were added to the list who had not had an abortion or who had but didn't want to be outed. Guessing similar concerns apply to the List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people, List of intersex people, and the many lists of people by medical condition (bulimia, anorexia, ovarian cancer, etc.). How can we go about protecting the page to avoid this?Scribestress (talk) 01:00, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The LGB list is already semi-protected, though not the Intersex list. From what I understand protection should generally not be preemptive (I don't necessarily agree with that, but that's neither here nor there). An issue IMO is that abortion is not generally WP:DEFINING and is an operation rather than a condition. Having this list is much like having a "List of celebrities who are circumcised", it usually doesn't matter,Not that I care much for circumcision, but that's again neither here nor there and to the extent that it does it matters in the wrong way (i.e., tabloid stuff). Perhaps the content could be incorporated into any recent social media movement emphasizing the importance of abortions in light of the recent bans, but this title should not redirect to that and should instead be deleted and salted to prevent nefariousness and mishaps. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 01:16, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
John M Wolfson Thanks for the quick response. Maybe we can get preemptive protection in light of the concerns expressed on this page. I'm still a little lost on the "tabloid stuff" point. Consider that in the 2016 SCOTUS case Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt 100+ lawyers signed an amicus brief stating "To the world, I am an attorney who had an abortion, and, to myself, I am an attorney because I had an abortion." The brief was discussed in the New York Times. In Wikipedia, there is a List of youngest birth fathers, a List of youngest birth mothers, a List of oldest fathers, a List of male underwear models, and a List of male performers in gay porn films. I would place having an abortion closer to the List of breast cancer patients by survival status. But if becoming a father at age 11 is WP:DEFINING yet not "tabloid stuff," why isn't having an abortion? I trust you have read through the list of citations on the page (not suggesting you haven't). The news media thinks this is noteworthy. It's being discussed before the Supreme Court. I don't get why it's too trivial (or sensationalist?) for Wikipedia.Scribestress (talk) 03:57, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The attorneys signing the brief aren't usually notable enough for Wikipedia, and if they are it's for different things. Youngest birth fathers and mothers are important because that's the cause of their notability within Wikipedia, and the list of underwear models and porn performers are defining because that's their occupation. Abortion is a very commonplace procedure and per WP:MILL anyone getting one doesn't automatically qualify for an article. Anyone on the list with an article is on Wikipedia due to other factors, so the abortion list is just adding WP:UNDUE weight towards a fairly minor characteristic, (As said earlier in the thread, it wouldn't make a good category.) and it is such undue weight that gives the list a sort of perceived tabloid feel to it. I appreciate your good-faith efforts to salvage this article, but in the end I just don't think it's worthy of Wikipedia. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 04:10, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Appreciate you continuing the conversation. Have you taken a look at the many lists of people by medical condition? I don't see how this is distinct from the List of organ transplant donors and recipients and the List of baseball players who underwent Tommy John surgery. Are those lists not addressed to a "minor characteristic"? Scribestress (talk) 05:29, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Mrschimpf: I see the concern. Perhaps we can pre-empt the issue by requesting protection for the page to avoid this issue. Thanks for your thoughts.Scribestress (talk) 01:00, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete Strongest. My God... this is a new low on the quest to turn Wikipedia into tabloid toilet paper.... Next it's gonna be "celebrities who have eaten at In-N-Out Burger", "celebrities who pseudonyms at hotels", and "celebrities who wear glasses as a fashion statement yet otherwise have fine eyesight". I mean who really gives a damn? This is absurd. Stop trying to turn momentary controversies into click bait! Abortion is one of the most common procedures in the world. Millions get it. What makes a celebrity different? Next it's gonna be "celebrities promoting diarrhea-inducing "Flat Tummy Tea". Trillfendi (talk) 22:51, 22 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Trillfendi: Gentle reminder that Wikipedia policies discourage attacking other editors. Let's also assume we're both acting in good faith. I get that you think this is either unimportant, sensationalist, or both. Time, Fortune, the BBC, and The New York Times think it is news. It is also, apparently, of interest to the U.S. Supreme Court (see Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt.Scribestress (talk) 02:16, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Scribestress: But did I lie? Wikipedia is not a BuzzFeed listicle–but lately that’s the direction people want it to go (see the so-called Tati Westbrook “controversy”). This randomly assorted list was created as a knee-jerk reaction. This isn’t of Wikipedia quality. If anything this is WP:GOSSIP. And just because a publication covers it doesn’t make it worthy of a Wikipedia article. Trillfendi (talk) 04:29, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 13:57, 23 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Epiphyllumlover I see the concern. Another editor suggested addressing the vandalism concern by protecting the page, which as been done with other articles. What do you think about this approach? Scribestress (talk) 02:18, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I just assumed it was already protected due to it being about abortion... but then I checked and there is no talk page. I would encourage you to go about fixing this ASAP, even though I still think in favor of "Delete," it may change other people's minds in your favor. Page protections on Wikipedia are more about preventing edit wars than preventing subtle, slanderous hoaxes from being added. Wikipedia:List of hoaxes on Wikipedia is incomplete, and I expect there are others still waiting to be found. In theory a page like this could possibly be policed for libel if there were more people constantly working on it, but quickly checking the edit history, it seems like it is pretty much just you. Trying not to be creepy, I checked your edit history to see how active you are, and it seems like you were pretty active in 2019, but not in the past. This might be splitting hairs, but what I expect is that in a few years, this article will be dormant and open to abuse. I double checked for other controversial "Lists of people" topics. We have some on mental health, but they are not limited to say, ethnic/national groups. Abortion is one of the topics Wikipedia fights the most about.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 03:50, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Epiphyllumlover Appreciate the advice. I created a talk page. The policy on requesting protection discourages making a request "as a method for continuing an argument from elsewhere." Everyone on this page who has weighed in on the issue seems in favor of the article needing protection, there's no argument. Then again, the "argument from elsewhere" could be whether to outright delete this page. Thoughts? Scribestress (talk) 04:17, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you violated the "continuing an argument" provision.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 04:21, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Ugg. I just had the most horrible thought. Sometimes I think of articles and speculate, what would be another name for that article from the other POV, and would also be a POV fork if created... the non-existent POV-fork counterpart for this article is List of aborted celebrity fetuses.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 04:25, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, not great. This reminds me that I moved the page so that it is now called "List of women who have had an abortion." Pretty sure most people are not looking at the page itself, just this AfD page. Can I just change the title at the top of this page to conform to the current title of the page? That would make it accurate, and maybe people would get past the sensationalism issue. Scribestress (talk) 04:54, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Epiphyllumlover Not a bad idea. I'll have to think about what details could be added (age, maybe?)Scribestress (talk) 04:54, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Number of abortions, age during abortions, age, size, and weight of fetus, identity of father and his relationship to the mother, age of father, method used to abort, whether there were multiple fetuses or not, location or facility where the abortion was performed, legal aspects (rape, incest, instances of coercion of abortion, whether the abortion was legally performed or not), any medical complications, and whether the mother or father approved of the abortion or later expressed remorse or mixed feelings. I suspect that if the article contained these things some of the medical/legally interested editors would be coming here and voting "keep" and people would be less likely to view this article as tabloid material because it would appear serious.Epiphyllumlover (talk) 00:42, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bradv I saw that you moved the page back to its old title, which the group finds problematic. What's the deal? Looking for a solution and operating in good faith. Thanks. Scribestress (talk) 06:02, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Scribestress, moving a page while it is at AfD should not be done, as it changes the question that this discussion is supposed to answer. Wait for the AfD to close first. – bradv🍁 06:10, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bradv Interesting. I think the policy says that you can edit a page while it's AfD. No one participating in this discussion advocates keeping "celebrities" in the title, so it was not a controversial move.Scribestress (talk) 06:22, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Trivia, unencyclopedic and in very poor taste. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep This is not just about the You Know Me movement, and is not just a list of women who have said in 2019 that they had an abortion. WP:LISTN states that "a list topic is considered notable is if it has been discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources". On Wikipedia we already have several articles about movements of women stating publicly that they have had an abortion, eg: Silent No More, founded in 2003 in the US (women (and men) who regret their abortions); Manifesto of the 343, a French petition calling for the legalization of abortion, published in a weekly magazine in 1971; ShoutYourAbortion, started in the US in 2015 "for the purpose of “destigmatization, normalization, and putting an end to shame"; You Know Me movement, US, 2019. There are other projects in other countries in which women have also made public the fact that they have had an abortion, eg The X-ile Project in Ireland ('Reviewed Work: The X-ile Project', Review by: Katherine Side, The Canadian Journal of Irish Studies, Vol. 40, 2017). There are reliable sources discussing these movements/petitions of women publicly naming themselves as having had an abortion, and many of these sources also name and discuss some of the women.
I also searched within Wikipedia articles for "had an abortion". Among other women who have WP articles of whom it is noted that they had abortions, but who are not already in this list, are Mary Hamilton (lady in waiting) (d. 1719); Els von Eystett (15th C); Susana, Lady Walton (d. 2010); British MP Heidi Allen; Alix Kates Shulman; Suze Rotolo (d. 2011); Christine Keeler (d. 2017); Katharine, Duchess of Kent; Hazel Hawke, wife of a former Australian PM (d. 2013); and many others. In these biographies, the abortions were considered significant enough to be discussed by the sources and to be included in the article, and thus the list can easily be expanded by finding them and adding them.
I think that those editors who consider this topic unencyclopedic or trivial, comparable to stating when notable women had their first pap smear, who has a mole on their nose, etc, are missing a major point (whether deliberately or through ignorance): abortion has been or is illegal in many states/countries/situations. Some women for whom an abortion is a notable fact in their lives were charged with obtaining one (and sometimes named in newspapers etc in relation to the charge and/or sentence), or risked being charged by publicly stating that they had had one. So abortion is/has indeed been WP:DEFINING. (I have to say that many of the Delete !votes appear to be strong cases of WP:IDONTLIKEIT.)
I agree that the name of the article should not include the word 'celebrities' - I think just 'women' would be appropriate (and following WP:LISTPEOPLE, "A person is typically included in a list of people only if all the following requirements are met: The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources".) RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:06, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The articles you mentioned generally have relevance to the person having an abortion. Your standard BLP does not, just by virtue of having had an abortion. Also wrt legality, pot is illegal in many places, but we don't have an article about People who got high or People who once smoked pot. Giving an abortion more weight just because someone had one is an extreme violation of NPOV for the same reason including a tweet from Celine Dion saying "I smoked pot in college once" would be irrelevant and contradictory to the purpose of Wikipedia. (And I hope this doesn't need to be said, I was just giving an example, I don't know or care if CD ever smoked pot.) tl;dr we don't need every factoid about someone who is notable just because it's verifiable.Praxidicae (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Praxidicae It's super interesting that to me that there are two competing concerns emerging from this discussion: one, that the fact of having an abortion is so provocative it creates a risk of vandalism or abuse, requiring pre-emptive page protection before any vandalism has occurred; and two, the fact of having an abortion is so uninteresting, trivial, and irrelevant that it doesn't merit a Wikipedia entry. You can't have it both ways, and the contradiction suggests what RebeccaGreen said may be true, i.e. the delete votes may really be cases of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Scribestress (talk) 16:37, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
RebeccaGreen Appreciate you chiming in. Your comment that this is about more than just the current moment is exactly on point, and it goes to whether the list is encyclopedic or not. Also goes to weight. The list is a collection of historical, noteworthy facts about notable women, no more no less. Also I wasn't aware of the Silent No More movement, the Irish project, or the other women you named. I'll add them in. Scribestress (talk) 16:37, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Praxidicae, we do have List of United States politicians who have acknowledged cannabis use and List of British politicians who have acknowledged cannabis use. Reywas92Talk 19:26, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If you read biographers and journalists who talk about political figures who have been well known to have scandalous political lives, they sometimes state that "they don't find the affairs interesting" with the exception of affairs that may have changed them politically. The "not interesting" votes are coming from people who lack prurient interest, or are virtue-signaling that they lack such interest, but maybe are still struggling with it. In our modern day, the women who have the most to lose by vandalism are those who are either pro-life/anti-abortion, or whose supporters tend to be religious or conservative. People worried about vandalism either are people who 1. worry about Wikipedia's reputation 2. have dealt with hoaxes in the past and/or 3. are concerned about preventing scandal to the sort of women I mentioned above. There may be some overlap between not liking the content and being concerned about scandal, but not liking it doesn't make the concerns irrational or illegitimate. As I suggested above, the article could be improved so that the non-prurient interest types find it interesting. However, the editors who are worried about vandalism probably will not be brought around. But this isn't necessary to win a delete fight like this.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 00:55, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Non-encyclopaedic trivia and a potential time sink for editors and admins alike trying to keep BLP violations out of it. Sometimes, an article is just a bad idea and this is one of those. Neiltonks (talk) 14:17, 24 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Went ahead and reorganized content, added tables. Removed references to tweets and instagram. Added in the information about the individual's abortion that I could find, but doesn't have the level of detail that Epiphyllumlover suggests although a column for legal aspects would be fairly easy to add. 9H48F (talk) 01:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The reorg looks great. Since legality is tied in with what makes this list encyclopedic and the procedure itself defining for some, I'll go ahead and add in a column for it.Scribestress (talk) 18:48, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Per several comments above. This is a non-defining characteristic. Listing people who happened to have had a medical procedure is beyond banal and entirely not worth noting as a distinct list. In some, rare, cases I could see mentioning it in an article, but there's no way an arbitrary medical procedure bears building a list around.--Jayron32 04:28, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment 9H48F, thank you for reorganising this list into tables. (Do you still maintain your Delete !vote, even after reorganising it and adding lots of information?) I have added some of the names I linked to in my !vote above, and will continue adding more. RebeccaGreen (talk) 05:09, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, changed above. 9H48F (talk) 12:40, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Not sure we're being encouraged to talk about (or avoid talking about) celebrities or about abortions here. So presumably both. And either way, facts are more useful in a mission to inform than inherited mantras, and if a celeb comes out and says she's had an abortion, that's a potentially powerful fact. (Even if she's lying ....) Abortion has been a live political issue for decades and - maybe slightly oddly - it still - or again - is. We (almost) all have opinions on abortion, and some of us have very strong views. The passions unleashed above bear testimony to that. It's also intriguing that so many "celebrities" feel moved to speak about their own personal experiences of what you might have thought a private matter between those directly involved. And the way the laws criminalising abortion, and interpretations of them have flipped back and forth over the last hundred years or so in our different countries makes it hard to argue that people aren't interested. I guess you can argue that we shouldn't really be that interested in celebrities in the first place, on the ground that it only encourages them. But clearly we are interested in celebs. They even elected a movie actor as president of the United States a few years back, and some folks seem to think he didn't do such a terrible job. And celebrity's one of the things that keeps the media and several other bits of the economy ticking over, like it or not. Charles01 (talk) 18:29, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Famous people get ample coverage for talking about this. It easily passes the general notability guidelines. Everything on the list is referenced. The list should only be those who have spoken about their abortions, otherwise its an invasion of privacy and should not be on this list. Dream Focus 18:59, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am continuing to add names to the list that I have found by searching Wikipedia articles for "had an abortion" - ie, biographies where the fact of a woman having an abortion is significant enough to her life story that sources have discussed it and it has been included in the article. I am nowhere near finished going through the search results. (There are also plenty of articles about fictional characters who have had abortions - it would be easy to create another list for them.)
Scribestress, are you aware that you can also !vote, by placing Keep or Delete or whatever as the first word in a comment, in bold (either use the B key in the editing toolbar, or place three inverted commas at each side of the word)? I think it would be quite clear to a closing editor that you support keeping this article, but it doesn't hurt to make your position clear - and including references to supporting Wikipedia policies helps too. RebeccaGreen (talk) 19:11, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I don't understand why there has been all this focus on WP:DEFINING because, in Wikispeak, "defining" is relevant to categories, not lists. The WP:DEFINING information page says "In cases where a particular attribute about a topic is verifiable and notable but not defining, or where doubt exists, creation of a list article is often the preferred alternative." (that is, preferred to having a category). Likewise, the WP:NOTDEFINING guideline relates to categories. So, what is relevant for a list article is not whether anything is "defining" but whether WP:VERIFIABILITY and WP:NOTABILITY are met. Thincat (talk) 19:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It looks to me that WP:Verifiability and WP:Notability are met (or at least editing could readily produce this situation) but I really don't like having this article here at all. However, WP:N and WP:NOTCENSORED expect me think up which policy is being broken. The best I could find was WP:BLPCAT which arguably prevents "lists ... (referring to living persons within any Wikipedia page) that ... suggest that any living person has a poor reputation". Because of time or jurisdiction some of these people may have been breaking the law and so there could arise the more general suggestion of a poor reputation. No, I don't find this too convincing but it is the best I can think up. Thincat (talk) 20:44, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Solidly sourced list women sharing a noteworthy element of their life history. PamD 23:34, 25 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Whilst I personally think it doesn't merit a Wikipedia entry, obviously there are those who strongly support keeping it. It has been brought up above about possible future BLP and vandalism issues. I have seen previous AfDs where editors have passionately fought to keep an article, then done nothing to maintain it. I would suggest if the article is kept, then it is without prejudice to renomination if the article is not maintained. --John B123 (talk) 08:59, 26 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Undecided - This is a difficult one, for sure, so I'll share my thoughts and will probably come back as the discussion continues. First of all, how is half of this page dedicated to a guideline that's only about categories in the Wikipedia sense (WP:DEFINING)? A list article doesn't have to be based on a defining characteristic. More to my own opinion, though: My initial reaction to this was in line with the delete !voters: "no, obviously no." There's clearly huge potential for BLP problems here. Also how do you set an inclusion criteria based on "celebrities"? Thinking about it more, however, I'm coming to some of the same notions that RebeccaGreen articulated above. Most importantly, that there have been several movements involving women coming forward and making a point about wanting it known that they had an abortion. There's no BLP issue at all there. My sense is that if kept, the inclusion criteria should involve, in some way, a restriction to just these women, and not literally every notable woman who someone has said had an abortion at one time or another. ...But then if we do that, maybe we might as well include them in the various articles like You Know Me movement rather than have a stand-alone list. Tough one indeed. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:48, 26 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and rename as List of women who have had an abortion. My initial reaction to the idea of such a list was one of scepticism, concerned perhaps about some sort of "abortion shaming" agenda somewhere in the background. And the use of "celebrities" in the title rather than "women" may have contributed to my concerns. Having read the debate and the article, and seeing how many notable women have come forward to self-identify, such a list could contribute to the destigmatization and normalisation of what has been something of a taboo subject for far too long. Edwardx (talk) 01:19, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete - Oh, this is like Nixon's Enemies List, except this one is targeting women. This smacks of political agenda. Is there a companion article "List of celebrities who have had a vasectomy"? How about "List of male celebrities who have had penis enlargement"? For many things listed at WP:NOT. If it's important to mention about the individual, then include it and source it in their Wikipedia article. Given the political divide in the United States right now, this could easily be viewed as a political hit list, a check to blacklist, a list for political purposes at rallies. Lists can be useful, but they can also be a handy print off at rallies targeting public individuals. This list is not encyclopedic. Either direction, this list has an agenda for existing.— Maile (talk) 02:16, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep First, I am not in any doubt that this is a notable topic, and the list seems well-documented.
In response to all those who assert that BLP requires deletion, I suggest BLP cuts both ways. Claiming that BLP requires deletion to protect privacy actually achieve the opposite when individuals chose to sacrifice their privacy because of strong personal beliefs.
Are there women who had abortions, later regretted it, and subsequently went public to offer their example, their regret, as a cautionary tale to those considering having an abortion? I am pretty sure there have been some. Any individual who is already notable, who has offered their abortion as a cautionary tale, also merits an entry in this list.
The wikipedia is not supposed to be used for advocacy. I don't believe it is being used for advocacy. It seems that most of the women named on this list voluntarily chose to make public that they had an abortion.
BLP has special provisions to protect the privacy of previously unknown people, who got unwanted coverage, by accident. However, none of the women on this list is a previously unknown person. So, the protections we offer to previously unknown people don't apply here. Geo Swan (talk) 03:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Geo Swan, yes, there are some women included in the list who talk about having an abortion to discourage other women from having one, or to campaign for more restrictive abortion laws, eg Jennifer O'Neill, Alveda King and Molly White. There are others who have said they regretted having an abortion, though they may not actively campaign against it, such as Sharon Osbourne and Jennifer Roback Morse. I have included those 5 in the list, with whatever position is stated in their WP article or their sources. If there are other notable women who have spoken about regrets or against abortion, having had one, they should certainly be included. RebeccaGreen (talk) 08:37, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Geo Swan, I'm at a loss for words over your waving away the major ethical issues involving actual living human beings, and if I addressed that I'd likely say something I regret. I will address your misunderstanding of our policies around deletion, however, and argue for them in this case. Thank you for motivating me to cast an actual !vote.
    Notability is not a policy. It is a guideline. We routinely delete notable things. In fact, not being notable is only 1 of 14 reasons we delete things according to the actual deletion policy. Reason number 9 on that list is the BLP policy. Since notability is not the reason being advocated for deletion, the closer should ignore arguments based on notability since they do not address the very substantive policy reasons for deletion.
    In terms of other measures, I am 100% confident that even with extended confirmed protection deletion would likely be necessary, and in cases where the very probable issues cannot possibly be removed, deletion followed by discussion about whether or not to allow recreation is the norm (see WP:BLPDELETE).
    That is to say, while deletion is still a last resort, when there is an argument that it is needed and other measure will not suffice, the burden of proof under existing policy shifts to those who want an article to achieve consensus to create it. Notability doesn't matter one iota
    In this case, we have an article that is all but certain for all other technical measures to fail. It's creation and subsequent sourcing to Tweets is a BLP violation by an autoconfirmed user. Anyone will be able to tell you that we have plenty of 500-900 edit accounts that have no clue how the BLP policy works. The only option under current policy is for an administrator to delete this article and for creation to be disallowed pending affirmative consensus. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:37, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    It seems those who want to delete this article are anti-abortion. You shouldn't let your personal feelings influence you in this. Anyone can check references to make certain the person spoke about it. There is no reason why anyone would add someone's name who hadn't had one, and if someone did vandalize the article it could easily be reverted just like any other article. The information about their abortion is already in their main articles also. Dream Focus 05:10, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Dream Focus, It seems those who want to delete this article are anti-abortion. This is a completely inappropriate comment. Please retract it. – bradv🍁 05:15, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Read the first sentence of what the editor I replied to just said. Read through all the other comments people have made. It seems to be that some of those who wish to delete this are doing it for personal bias. Dream Focus 05:23, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Dream Focus, I think you misread what I wrote. I do not think I have once revealed my personal views on abortion on Wikipedia, and I do not ever plan to. My first sentence was referencing the very real ethical issues of Google indexing this and having a list of D-list celebrities who most people will likely have forgotten in 10 years have the fact that they had an abortion show up as the second Google search result. The ethics of abortion has nothing to do with this. The ethics of Wikipedia and how it interacts with the subjects we cover because of the existence of Google very much does. TonyBallioni (talk) 05:34, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    TonyBallioni, have you actually read the article? The sources include Time, The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Guardian, BBC News, and books published by the NYU Press, Hachette, Penguin, Simon and Schuster, etc. There is ONE source which is a tweet. As for BLP violations - nearly half of the women are dead. And as another editor has already explained, the WP articles about these women already include their abortions (or if the articles are stubs, their names are already in the articles about the public statement they signed about having an abortion). In other words, this information is already on Wikipedia. (As for D-list celebrities - I have no idea who is D-list, Z-list or anything else. Do they have an article on Wikipedia? Yes? Then they're notable. The use of the word 'celebrity' was unfortunate, and the creator agrees, but it can't be changed during the AfD.) RebeccaGreen (talk) 08:27, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, I did. Both under the new and old versions this is how it originally looked. You did good work cleaning it up, but when it isn’t under intense scrutiny it is all but guaranteed to return to that state for many entries. This is a walking BLP nightmare. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for pointing this out! Wow, my hats off to those who expanded the article!

      So, Tony, do you think we should ping everyone who voiced a delete opinion prior to the expansion, to see if they still hold a delete opinion? Geo Swan (talk) 15:18, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • TonyBallioni, in your first comment you asserted "...this page is basically an invitation for libel..." I asked you to explain this. Am I missing something?
    • In 2005, when I was a newbie, who had never seen an AFD before an apparently widely admired contributor s said something like "The wikipedia shouldn't provide any coverage of Guantanamo, because it is an inherently biased topic, which will only serve as a platform for POV America-bashing."

      I gave this comment some thought, and asked her if there really could be "inherently biased topic".

      Neither the topics of Guantanamo, or abortion, or flat-earth, or anti-vaxxers, is inherently biased. Any topic, that has valid references, can be covered here, using a neutral voice, if good faith contributors work together to follow our policies and guidelines, that tell us how to write from a neutral point of view.

      Neither you, TonyBallioni, or anyone else, has pointed to a single sentence in this article that lapsed from neutrality. Even if a vandal swooped in, and added an unreferenced claim that Jane Doe, or the Queen of England, had said they had an abortion, our normal vandal fighting robots and quality control volunteers would had excised that claim.

    • I am going to repeat myself, TonyBallioni, can you name a single other well referenced new article that was deleted because it MIGHT be vandalized? Geo Swan (talk) 15:11, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I’m aware of several. We typically don’t publicize them for the reasons that they involve privacy issues, just like this one, so I won’t be listing them because that would defeat the entire point of having them deleted. And no, you shouldn’t engage in a disruptive mass ping. The BLP policy and the deletion policy are 100% clear on what the outcome should be here. TonyBallioni (talk) 15:33, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
TonyBallioni We? Who is this we?

I know the WMF reserves the authority to make the very occasional secret unaccountable action, but is only supposed to do so in very exceptional circumstances. When the NYTimes asked Jimbo Wales to suppress from the wikipedia any coverage of the kidnapping of David Rodhe he formed a team of a dozen trusted administrators to police that article. The justification for this action was that Wales was convinced Rodhe's life was at stake, and that his life would be even more at risk if his kidnappers saw his capture was the subject of news coverage, that the NYTimes convinced him that every major news organization had already agreed to a blackout on reporting Rodhe's capture.

This is what I think of when I think of the WMF clandestinely taking unaccountable action. It had the justification that those involved honestly believed someone's life was at risk.

So, are you a trusted senior WMF staff member, or member of the WMF board? Are you a past or present member of the ARB committee? If not could you please expand on why you think these other deletions should be kept withheld from those of us weighing in here?
You wrote above "The BLP policy and the deletion policy are 100% clear on what the outcome should be here." If that was really true then it would be a trivial matter for you to quickly link to and summarize the relevant passages. Why haven't you tried to do so?
I see you linked to WP:BLPDELETE - as if that justified a delete opinion today - ignoring that the 2nd paragraph of that section says
"Page deletion is normally a last resort...

and

"...deletion is appropriate when the page contains unsourced negative material or is written non-neutrally, and when this cannot readily be rewritten or restored to an earlier version of an acceptable standard..."
It seems to me you are telling us we should skip all the collaborative discussions, on Talk:List_of_celebrities_who_have_had_an_abortion, where good faith discussions of which RS were of value, which wording was neutral, and go right to the position where we decided that good faith contributors failed to produce a truly neutral version? Aren't you telling us we should jump right to this decision in the face of the very respectable efforts to produce a well referenced neutrally written version, today? Geo Swan (talk) 19:50, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming a use of the BLP policy "protects" individuals, when its use really damages them

Some of our contributors make extensive use of the clauses in the BLP policy, intended to protect individuals in a way that actually damages them. I first encountered this phenomenon in the case of Mrs A, a grandmother in Georgia, who found herself subject to Georgia's draconian sex offender laws, due to a Kafka-esque nightmare. Her crime was letting the father of her future grandchild move into her home, so he could save money to marry her daughter. Her daughter was under the legal age of consent, and, under Georgia's laws, letting him continue to have sexual relations with her, made Mrs A a sex offender. No, I am not making this up. BLP advocates claimed that BLP rules required the article on Mrs A to be deleted, because it was damaging to her for the wikipedia to repeat that she was on the sex offender list.

Wow! This BLP claim was extremely insulting to Mrs A. Unlike all the other people on the list, who weren't actual sex offenders, for any reasonable definition of sex offender, Mrs A sacrificed her right to privacy, went public as an advocate for reforming Georgia's sex offender laws, and used the details of her case, and how it affected her as an argument for reform. She'd been doing so for a decade, and had appeared on national TV and in international news magazines.

Why were people claiming BLP required "protecting" Mrs A by deleting her article? I'm sorry, but I am afraid I couldn't help concluding that some of those claims of protection were a smokescreen. I am afraid some contributors wanted to continue to see Mrs A suffer in silence under the old law, not because they thought she was a genuine sex offender, but because they thought she was a sinner, for encouraging sex prior to marraige.

Is something similar happening here?

Are people who want to silence those who advocate a women's right to an abortion, using specious claims that they are protecting the privacy of the women on this list as a way to covertly push an anti-abortion POV?

When someone chooses to sacrifice their privacy, to make a point, using BLP's privacy provisions to keep them from making their point is highly disrespectful and, I believe, a violation of NPOV.

If all of the women on this list voluntarily made public the information that they had an abortion I think it is highly specious of us to try to protect them from themselves. Geo Swan (talk) 15:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Abortion is still a procedure that carries considerable stigma in religious areas such as the American Bible Belt, because a large number of people equate it to murdering a baby, and the doctors who perform it and women who have it done as murderers. As long as this attitude exists, there is a potential for discrimination against the women, precisely why this topic is so controversial. This differentiates it from other medical procedures like the aforementioned kidney transplant, which fewer people would argue against, or be horrified by, if it was needed. People do not face the same judgment for the latter but certainly are discriminated against for the former. I don’t believe that every woman in this list voluntarily made the information available, (do you think all of the dead women or their families would’ve been comfortable with them being in this list?) and some who did had absolutely no intention of doing so prior to the current climate in the US due to abortion laws changing. I know that part of this argument is that the public revelation of women’s abortions to remove the stigma from them is what some feel is the whole point of having a list like this, but I do not see how it positively contributes to Wikipedia as an encyclopedia outside of being an activist campaign, I see it more as a fighting point for editors and vandals, as well as - for lack of a better way to express my thoughts - the same kind of derision as slut-shaming. I have no problem with the information being put into individual women’s articles as they choose to reveal it, I just feel that a collective list could be more damaging than positive; I can easily see the collection of names becoming part of Christian online magazines or extremist websites which could be used as a blacklist or even cause physical harm to the people on the list, or possibly affect employment. I also agree with ToniBallioni’s various points. For the record, I’ll state that I’m a pro-choice non-denominational Christian, so please don’t make assumptions or accusations about anyone’s vote. LovelyLillith (talk) 20:53, 27 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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