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November 12

About phrase "pulled over your eyes" in The Matrix

Morpheus says to Neo about the Matrix:

Morpheus: You can feel it when you go to work...when you go to church......when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes...to blind you from the truth.

Is the phrase "the wool" omitted before "over your" here? Rizosome (talk) 00:27, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, it sounds like he's making a play on words between "wool" and "world". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:01, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As Bugs said. "that has been pulled the wool over your eyes" would not be coherent syntax. —Tamfang (talk) 02:33, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a vowel harmony in any Indo-European language?

Is there a vowel harmony in any Indo-European language, like in Finnish and Hungarian? --40bus (talk) 14:59, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article vowel harmony mentions:

Italo-Romance languages: several Swiss Italian dialects (including total vowel harmony systems).

Iberian languages

Astur-Leonese

Galician and Portuguese dialects

Catalan/Valencian

Eastern Andalusian Spanish

Murcian Spanish

-- Q Chris (talk) 16:18, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That article also mentions Assamese, Bengali and a dialect of Scots. --Theurgist (talk) 11:13, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

~~Also, Finnish and Hungarian are not Indo-European languages, despite being spoken in Europe. They are Uralic languages. --Jayron 32 13:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)~~[reply]
I think you are confused. The original question didn't say anything about Finnish and Hungarian being Indo-European. It was using them as examples of languages with vowel harmony and asking if any Indo-European languages had that characteristic.--Khajidha (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. I read the question as using Finnish and Hungarian as examples of Indo-European languages, not as examples of vocal harmony. Mea culpa. --Jayron 32 15:53, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a word for this 2D signage-related concept?

I'm looking for a word that is related to an illustration technique used to resolve issues of depth or overlap in a two-dimensional image; in particular, which of two elements is in front of the other. One sees this technique consistently used in iconic, flat illustrations destined for wordless signage to indicate overlapping image elements in 2D, such as a walking man, to show which leg is in front of the other. This technique uses a thin white border around a part of the foreground element, to identify it as the foreground image with respect to another element that is "behind" it. The border matches the contours of the foreground element and may be straight or curved, and matches the background color (usually white) around the foreground element.

What is this technique called, and is there a name for the thin, contoured gap? (The gaps in the examples may not be easily visible at this resolution; click through to see full images where the gaps will be apparent.) Backstory here. Mathglot (talk) 21:38, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Outline? Maybe not. ± Wakuran (talk) 21:54, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Mathglot -- I think the visual technique was used for interlacing or knotwork before it appeared on signage. AnonMoos (talk) 03:23, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@AnonMoos:, good find; something like that even sounds vaguely familiar, maybe from Scouting? Makes me wonder how far back the technique goes, maybe antiquity? Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 10:39, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Celtic knotwork and Interlace (art) for possible pointers. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.31 (talk) 17:10, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[1] calls it 21⁄2D and seems to refer to those segments as thickened curves. A bit heavy for me, but someone else might make lighter reading of it and come up with an answer. Bazza (talk) 10:51, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Bazza 7, nice; I learned crossings and visual break from that interesting paper. The latter term seems pretty close to what I'm describing; not sure if it's the exact same thing. Mathglot (talk) 09:35, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can also see this, for example, in woodcuts. Here it is IMO not an issue of resolving depth or overlap, but rather of making sure that shapes representing distinct things do not merge into one unrecognizable shape. This illustration is from 1919, but I bet a diligent search can find much older examples. --Lambiam 14:31, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Initially, I would have considered something like "layering", but it seems that the term mostly would be used with other meanings, and might be ambiguous... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:57, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I immediately thought of fimbriation, but alas it does not appear to be used in this sense. --ColinFine (talk) 13:33, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea though! —Tamfang (talk) 17:49, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ColinFine, Wow, excellent thought! 15th c. < late L. fimbria, "fringe". "Hey, Joe: gimme a bit more fimbriation around the top leg, there." —"Okay; maybe we should fim another 2px." Can you just see it? Mathglot (talk) 18:24, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Solved, then. Fimbriated visual break crossing. (Until someone comes up with the real answer.) Bazza (talk) 20:30, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I need to specifically call out Lambiam, who created commons:File:Interlocked fimbriated rings.png just for this discussion. Big 'thank you' for that; really nice job illustrating this point. I encourage anyone in this discussion to add categories or keywords to it (I'm not entirely sure how search success happens best on Commons) so we can find it again; I'm sure fimbriation is in my short-term memory until around Thursday or Friday, and then it'll be gone the way of the sock the dryer ate. Mathglot (talk) 23:32, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Why didn't spelling of words keep track of pronunciation changes during the great vowel shift?

In the English language, words are written according to the way they were pronounced before the great vowel shift. Take e.g. the sentence: "I came from my house, now I'm here". If we pronounce this according the sounds of the letters in the words, then we get close to the correct pronunciation in the year 1400.Or take the word "nightingale", which in the 1400s used to be pronounced as written. So, why didn't the spelling change with these gradual changes in pronunciation during the great vowel shift? Count Iblis (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Count Iblis, please re-write the following words according to how they should be spelled based on your idea that the GVS should have changed the spellings of words:
1. mate
2. meet
3. mite
4. boat
5. boot
6. about

Georgia guy (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

meet
miet
myt
boot
boet
abaut

Count Iblis (talk) 23:01, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Count_Iblis -- the basic answer is that if spelling X is identified with pronunciation A, and then sound A shifts to sound B, then spelling X will be naturally now be identified with sound B, with no conscious change to orthography habits required. A phonetic orthography would also break connections between related words, such as "sane" / "sanity" etc. AnonMoos (talk) 23:28, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that the most interesting part of this fact is that whereas the Great Vowel Shift didn't change the spellings, Grimm's Law (which changed consonant sounds) did change spellings. (If I were to guess a reason, I would guess it is because the GVS is a relatively modern sound change and Grimm's Law is a not-so-modern sound change.) But, suppose Grimm's Law (like the GVS) didn't change spellings. What spellings would English have??

P would have the f sound.
B would have the p sound.
Greek phi would have the b sound.
T would have the (voiceless) th sound.
D would have the t sound.
Greek theta would have the d sound.
K would have the h sound.
G would have the k sound.
Greek psi (not chi; in the Western Greek alphabet that the Latin alphabet arose from psi was the aspirated k sound) would have the g sound.)
QU would have the wh sound.
GU would have the qu sound.

(I'm omitting the gu sound because in English the gwh initial sound of PIE merged with the bh; both gave rise to English b.) The l, m, n, r, s, w, and y sounds would be spelled the same. The sh sound would be spelled sk. I don't know about the ng, v, voiced th, and z sounds. (Please note that this is simply information about a difference between Grimm's Law and the GVS; it answers the question "How would English consonant sounds be spelled if Grimm's Law didn't have this difference; that is, the old spellings are preserved??") Georgia guy (talk) 00:04, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Georgia_guy -- Grimm's Law predates any form of Germanic writing, so that there were no "old spellings" to preserve, and your post is a counterfactual hypothetical. However, apparently the same letters of the Armenian alphabet which write the sounds [p], [t], and [k] in Eastern Armenian are pronounced [b], [d], and [g] in Western Armenian (see Western Armenian#Differences from Classical Armenian). AnonMoos (talk) 03:18, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This, by the way, has the curious effect that Armenian surnames may be spelled differently in Armenian publications appearing in Turkey and in Armenia. For example, Agos spells the name Hrant Dink as Հրանդ Տինք, which in Armenia is pronounced more like "Hrand Tink". An Armenian newspaper will therefore use the spelling Հրանտ Դինք,^[2] which a Turkish Armenian will now read as "Hrand Tink"! --Lambiam 14:53, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The alphabetic orthography of any language is a balance – not necessarily a well-designed and consistent one – between the extremes of a purely phonemic orthography and a purely conservative etymology-cum-morphology-based orthography. A purely phonemic orthography has three problems. A major one is that the phonemic representation of a given word may vary, both for a single speaker depending on things like prosody, and between different speakers, often reflecting regional differences. A standardized pronunciation-based spelling has to make a choice, which will often reflect the pronunciation of a privileged class. Another serious problem is then that when the standard pronunciation changes, the spelling needs to be changed – phonemic orthography is by nature non-conservative. And, finally, as observed above, it may obscure the relatedness of cognate terms with diverging pronunciations. If the spelling of English had followed the way the pronunciation changed in the course of time, older written records would quickly have become incomprehensible. --Lambiam 15:19, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. How would Mary spell marry, merry, cot, caught, etc? Bazza (talk) 15:55, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the erudite linguistic discussions above, consider also the effects on English spelling evolution of the introduction of printing, mentioned for example here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.225.31 (talk) 17:17, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Article translation Fre/Eng

Hi, I've translated the bulk of an article from French to English. It's not perfect, need to brush it up a bit, but my question is - how do I quote when all the citations are in French? And, how do I reuse the picture and info box used in the original article? The article I'm writing is on the actor Axel Auriant, translating from the original. Ah yes, how do you make a link to a draft or a wiki in another page an internal link? I don't know what the preface is, so I just have to write the URL as if it were an external article. Many thanks EcheveriaJ (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To quickly answer some of your questions (I have to run): For the infobox, you have to use an appropriate one on this WP ({{Infobox actor}}, maybe), filling in whatever info you can. Since the image is on Commons, you would just enter "Marche des fiertés de Paris 2019-3.jpg" in the infobox's "image" field. Deor (talk) 23:27, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I formatted your links for you. Note that to link to another Wikipedia requires an extra ':'; else it would create a link in the "Languages" sidebar. (Similarly a link to a Category would otherwise put the page into that Category.) --Tamfang (talk) 02:31, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Draft talk:Axel Auriant for some suggestions on reffing etc. >MinorProphet (talk) 05:56, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@EcheveriaJ: I fixed some red links turning them blue. Please be aware of template {{interlanguage link}} (or {{ill}} ) when an article exists in French, but not yet in English. Left you some tips on sectioning; see the page history. If you need any help with translation issues or questions, please contact me on my Talk page. Good luck! Mathglot (talk) 19:19, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you everyone ever so much! This is great help. EcheveriaJ (talk) 19:54, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 14

Latin transation

I want to have a special plaque made for our school secretary and I am hoping to have it engraved with her name and then below "If she can't fix it, then no one can" or something similar. I have a reference question (talk) 02:40, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An attempt: Si aliquid illa reficere non potest, nemo potest. --Lambiam 11:35, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To simplify, one could drop aliquid without really losing meaning, possibly also reficire. --T*U (talk) 14:01, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you drop reficĕre, the meaning broadens to "If she can't do it, no one can", which would include performing such feats as long-jumping 20 feet. The word "it" in the English version has no referent, making the statement slightly ambiguous: the word might refer to some specific problem, known to the intended audience. The same ambiguity exists in Latin if aliquid is dropped. --Lambiam 15:37, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also if you're going to keep aliquid, remember to drop the ali- part. "After si, nisi, num, and ne, all the alis drop away!" Adam Bishop (talk) 23:58, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Questions of this sort frequently come up, and get a variety of suggestions, on Latin Stack Exchange, I have a reference question. --ColinFine (talk) 13:39, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone! I have a reference question (talk) 18:32, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 16

Help with Dutch language source

I need some help with a Dutch-language reference - https://www.delpher.nl/. I know it is similar to Newspapers.com but the main thing is I don't understand Dutch. The previous (now blocked) editor who found these references didn't translate the titles or the content of the articles. If someone with the technical & Dutch-language know-how could take a look at User:Shearonink/Gerard van Beek and translate the blurbs or articles (including the titles) and then adjust Refs 2/3/4 & 6 to Wikipedia Cite web standards, and then explain what they did over on my user talk I would be ever so grateful. If all that is too much - I know this is a big ask - maybe you could translate all the needed bits on my user talk and I could take over the Cite web clean-up. The article needs to have its references adjusted before I transfer it to mainspace. I am stumped on how to best craft the references since I'm not even sure what the titles of the articles are or what the names of the newspapers are or what the articles/blurbs state. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 20:10, 16 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My Dutch is pretty rusty, and partly just guesstimating from similar words in German, English or Scandinavian, but if I understand the source [3] correctly, Gerard van Beek did indeed compete in the 1948 Tour De France. (If you could copy the text, you could probably get the gist through web translation, though.) 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 02:59, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But are actual titles really meant to be translated on Wikipedia, by the way? Shouldn't they be cited as they are? 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 03:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the wonderful native Dutch speaking and very active editor Drmies might have something to say about this. I know only about seven words of Dutch, six of which he taught me. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:09, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cullen328. That newspaper article from De Zaanlander--well, de Zaanstreek is the area where I grew up. On that page, right column, is the cheesiest of poems, about how one can spend a nice vacation or a summer day, and the poet's favorite is to drive a little boat through the Westzijderveld--there is no article for that, but Zaanse Schans is on the edge of it. The poet talks about the windmills that brought wealth and fame to the area, that you can still see the foundations of some of them, etc.--and of course that's the same place where I once rowed around with a certain other young person, in a little boat, with a bottle of champagne, and then made out in her father's windmill. Yes sir. Drmies (talk) 04:16, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That reminds me, Drmies, of the rock festivals of the greater Detroit area in the very late 1960s and the very early 1970s, when things seemed simple and gorgeous. Then, I came to Northern California where things were more complex since I was growing up. And here I remain, after 49 years. Lazy, I guess. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 07:48, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 17

Sidi in place names

Our article Sidi discusses that term's use an an honorific in Arabic, but it also seems to be common in place names, specifically city names. Our lists of cities in Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia reveal a good number of cities called "Sidi..." something or other, and there are a few in Libya and Egypt as well. Is that the same sidi that's used as an honorific title, or is it a different word? (I assume the similarity to the English word city, especially in its American pronunciation, is a coincidence.) —Mahāgaja · talk 10:50, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The connection is quite simple. The place names are usually named after persons with the honorific used in their name, just like Saint Louis, Saint Paul, Saint Helena, just to mention the first that spring to my mind in English. From other languages I could add Santiago (Saint James), San Marino, Sveti Petar (Saint Peter) and any number of place names in Greece starting with Agios (Άγιος) (masc.), Agia (Αγία) (fem.), Agioi (Άγιοι) (plural). --T*U (talk) 13:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. I had looked up a few of the Sidis but the ones I looked up didn't say anything about the etymology of the name. —Mahāgaja · talk 13:31, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps the best known to British people will be Sidi Barrani, where our article says it is "Named after Sidi es-Saadi el Barrani, a Senussi sheikh who was a head of its Zawiya...". DuncanHill (talk) 13:41, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have a vague memory of hearing once that some major city in the Arabic world is known as Sidi something-or-other in Arabic but goes by a different name in English. For the life of me, I can't remember which city that was, or even if this memory is real. —Mahāgaja · talk 23:47, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps listed here (redirects are in italics). The only major Arab city with an English name significantly different from its native name that I can think of is Al-Quds al-Sharif. Beirut, Cairo, Mecca, Medina, Damascus, Baghdad, etc. all have names that differ, as far as I know, only in the values of vowels or consonants. DuncanHill (talk) 00:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not forget the Big Apple: New York Sidi. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC) [reply]

Casablanca is known as Dar al-Beyda in Arabic, which means the same thing but sounds significantly different. A number of its suburbs are Sidi something or other (e.g. Sidi Belyout), usually named after a local saint's shrine (zawiya in Arabic). Xuxl (talk) 14:09, 18 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 19

LanguageHTHe Aramic language

How can I learn the Aramic language -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:3425:F300:2873:F3AD:5A3C:528F (talk) 00:28, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First, it's called "Aramaic", and there have been many versions and varieties of it attested in the last 2,800 years or so. "Aramaic" is a language group, not a single language. The version with the most written literature available is probably Syriac, but that's now a liturgical language (not a living language), and is pronounced very differently in the Eastern Syriac and Western Syriac traditions... AnonMoos (talk) 00:44, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

W in the NATO phonetic alphabet

The purpose of the NATO phonetic alphabet is to give each letter a special name. BEE and DEE can easily be misheard as the other name; BRAVO and DELTA resolve this. But why does W still need a special name?? DOUBLE YOO already sounds dis-similar and cannot be misheard. Georgia guy (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know it can't be mis-heard? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:43, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Each of the names starts with the letter it denotes. Would kinda break the system a little. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇} 05:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably they wanted a consistent approach when they set up a phonetic alphabet. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, "double yoo" is only the way W sounds in English. In German it's like "vay", in French like "doo-bluh vay", and so on. The phonetic alphabet is for speakers of all the languages used in NATO. --184.144.99.241 (talk) 07:48, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

French -> Arabic -> English?

Can anyone help me turn the following archaic French transliterations of the names of Muslim kings of al-Andalus into (I hope) live wikilinks? I'm working on Prise d'Orange after reading about a fascinating discovery of a fragment of the text.

The names come from the long footnote continued at page 366 of volume 3 of Les épopées françaises by Léon Gautier. The names are as follows, rendered exactly as Gautier spells them. Thanks much in advance. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 01:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Abd-el-Vahid-Ben-Mougeith
Abdallah-Ben-Abd-el-Mélik
El Hakem (who I think is Al-Hakam I)
Bahloul
Aboutahir
Foteis-Ben Soliman
Zaïdoun

I don't think we have articles about most of them...some of them are listed in the Battle of Las Babias but they're still redlinks. Al-Hakam I is the appropriate Cordoban emir but I guess the rest of them are just generals or other aristocrats. Bahloul could be Bahlul Ibn Marzuq? Right time period at least, but not necessarily the right Bahlul. I would spell the others Abd al-Wahid ibn Mugayth, Abdallah ibn Abd al-Malik, Abu Tahir, Futays ibn Sulayman, and Zaydun. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh actually it should be Mughith but there were two brothers with that name - there's an article about one of them in Spanish (and Catalan, and Arabic, and Basque) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:47, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Adam Bishop, thanks a lot. Perhaps an article-creating opportunity! An area of history I know nothing about but would be useful background information for the poem. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 05:42, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese question

At the bottom of the recruitment page for the Finnish sushi restaurant chain Hanko Sushi there is a picture of a red circular seal (you might have to wait a bit for it to appear) with Japanese characters in the middle. What does it say? Does it say "hanko" or "sushi" or something? JIP | Talk 03:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese name order in translations

I don't know if anyone knows this, but: Japanese names are giving in reverse order from English: lastname, firstname. My question is, when a Japanese source (like a newspaper) translates one its articles for its English-language edition, is it common practice to "translate" the name order too, to make it firstname, lastname? Or do they just transliterate the name and keep the Japanese order? You'd think there'd be a generally common practice (maybe not), but I don't know what it is. Herostratus (talk) 07:36, 19 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 180: / Line 180: @@
 :Each of the names starts with the letter it denotes. Would kinda break the system a little. [[User:Jpgordon|--jpgordon]]<sup><small>[[User talk:Jpgordon|&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107;]]</small></sup> 05:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 ::Presumably they wanted a consistent approach when they set up a phonetic alphabet. ←[[User:Baseball Bugs|Baseball Bugs]] <sup>''[[User talk:Baseball Bugs|What's up, Doc?]]''</sup> [[Special:Contributions/Baseball_Bugs|carrots]]→ 05:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
+:::Also, "double yoo" is only the way W sounds in English.  In German it's like "vay", in French like "doo-bluh vay", and so on.  The phonetic alphabet is for speakers of all the languages used in NATO. --[[Special:Contributions/184.144.99.241|184.144.99.241]] ([[User talk:184.144.99.241|talk]]) 07:48, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 == French -> Arabic -> English? ==