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May 19

Chaos Gods and Tannin (Monster)

May I ask why Tannin is listed as an Arabic chaos god? I don’t believe this is mentioned anywhere on the actual Wikipedia page for this entity. However, if Tannin was mentioned as a god somewhere within some historical text, may I have the link to it, please? Thank you!

Hello anonymous person. The place to discuss this is the Talk page of the article in question, which you haven't identified.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:02, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for informing me! I’ll go to that page right away 209.166.122.192 (talk) 08:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Also, this is the page I am referring to!

This is my first time using the reference desk and talk pages on Wikipedia so I apologize for my newbie errors. 🙇🏻 209.166.122.192 (talk) 08:29, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't mean to dispute that the article's talk page is a place to ask this question, but the article hasn't been edited in five months, and you're the first to use its talk page, and if you look at (to take a random example) Talk:The Island of Doctor Agor, you may still be waiting for a reply two years from now. Wikipedia is a bit dysfunctional in assuming that passing editors will notice things in dusty corners and react.  Card Zero  (talk) 09:20, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

In the meantime, this IS the place to ask for a reference, so here goes:

“ Sea " ( Yamm ) and “ Dragon " ( Tannin ) were symbols of chaos in Canaan and Israel.

Habel, Norman C. (1985). The Book of Job: A Commentary. Philadelphia, PA: Westminster Press. p. 162. ISBN 0-664-22218-8.

It seems to me that it would better listed be under "Canaanite" rather than "Arabic". Alansplodge (talk) 14:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

The source Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, in Tannin (monster), has it originating in Ugarit, some 80 miles north of Canaan, but then being adopted for use in the Old Testament and subsequently appearing in texts in several other languages. It is currently under the heading "Arabian", which may mean something slightly different from "Arabic".  Card Zero  (talk) 14:24, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Arabian does indeed mean something different from Arabic, though there is some overlap. Either way, I don't see how either applies to Ugarit. ColinFine (talk) 15:45, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I mean it's nearly in the Arabian Plate, except it's on the coast, which puts it the wrong side of a fault line - I thought maybe there was some lazy, old-fashioned usage of "Arabian" to include Mesopotamia and the whole general area south of Anatolia and east of Egypt. I'm just grasping for straws trying to explain the choice of heading. Previously the article organized Tannin under Mesopotamian, then Near and Middle Eastern, before settling on the current worst version. Maybe trying to organize chaos gods is just a bad idea.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:01, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

The term "Arabia" hasn't always meant just the Arabian Peninsula, or Saudi Arabia as it does today. At various times, it meant merely the Arab world, for whatever that meant at the time. Arab, Arabia, etc. have been applied to various lands and peoples which were not located on the Arabian Peninsula. Arabia Petraea, for example, or even Arabia, the Achaemenid Satrapy, neither of which included the Arabian peninsula. As noted at History of the Arabs, the term got applied to the people and lands today covered by roughly anyone from Syria, Iraq, Kuwait, the Sinai, the Levant, etc, in addition to the Arabian Peninsula. The Emesene dynasty, the Kingdom of Hatra, etc. were all considered Arabian and didn't live on the Arabian peninsula. On the "Arabic"/"Arabian" distinction, the former is generally only used to describe a language, while the latter is used to describe a people, a culture, a nation, etc. --Jayron32 17:54, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I have followed both sources and moved it down to "Canaanite" section. First actual reference in the whole article! Alansplodge (talk) 18:24, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the reference! 209.166.122.192 (talk) 19:00, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Consortium for Asian, African and Islamic studies

Besides Consortium for Asian and African Studies, California Consortium in Islamic Studies and Netherlands Interuniversity School for Islamic Studies. are there other consortia for Asian and African Studies and Islamic Studies in the world? Donmust90 (talk) 14:56, 19 May 2022 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 14:56, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Category:Asian studies, Category:African studies, and Category:Islamic studies has some ideas for you to follow. The distinction between a consortium, institute, center, etc, etc, is probably insignificant here, but those categories each contain numerous different groups that focus on the relevant studies. In general, Wikipedia categories are a good way to find additional examples of specific topics. --Jayron32 17:45, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

See also SOAS University of London (School of Oriental and African Studies) which dates from 1916. Alansplodge (talk) 18:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Also Institut national des langues et civilisations orientales in Paris and Leibniz-Zentrum Moderner Orient in Berlin. Alansplodge (talk) 18:30, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

I already read about these universities that you mentioned. That is why I am asking the mentioned question. SOAS and Institut national des langues et civilisations orientales are members of Consortium for Asian and African Studies with Columbia University and Leiden University in the Netherlands. Please read the question again and answer the question properly. Thank you. Donmust90 (talk) 02:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)Donmust90Donmust90 (talk) 02:01, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

User:Donmust90 I was only trying to help. Those institutions are not mentioned by name in your question, which I did indeed read before answering. If you can't be polite, perhaps you should ask your questions elsewhere. Alansplodge (talk) 22:25, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

May 20

I have a question about Canadian history

Were there people in Canada that spoke English in the 1690s or late 17th century? Did any of the first nations people speak English? At least, early modern English? -- Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:5262:A00:40A8:A9A5:BA88:5FBE (talk) 02:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Yes. For one thing, the Hudson's Bay Company, a company established in London, was founded in 1670 and began establishing posts in what is now Canada, so their employees, whose origins were in England, would have spoken English. Since their business involved buying furs from trappers who were First Nations people, I would assume that at least some of the First Nations people they dealt with learned to speak English too. And any First Nations people who learned to speak English then would have spoken whatever "era" of English the local English traders spoke, rather than an older or newer variant. The late 17th century is considered to be the time of the transition from Early Modern English to Modern English, although I doubt that most English-speaking people were aware of the transition at the time. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 03:27, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  The late 17th century was around the time when "thou", "thee", "thy" etc fully disappeared from ordinary spoken English, though they persisted in literary use, among Quakers, and in various dialects... AnonMoos (talk) 03:53, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• If by "Canada" the question means "what is now Canada", there is also the Newfoundland Colony and Nova Scotia. However, what was then called Canada was a much smaller area that was controlled by France at the time. --184.144.97.125 (talk) 05:48, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

• Also, it seems likely that at least some first nations people who had contacted English speakers would have spoken English. The English were well known for kidnaping and enslaving such people from coastal regions for many years before they even started colonizing the region. They also fished and set up temporary settlements, and traded with locals, and many of them learned English in that way. An instructive example from nearby to Canada, and from almost a century before the OP is asking about, is Squanto (Tisquantum), who had an amazing life story, which included being captured, enslaved, and liberated back to North America. We know of him because he's well documented in works like Mourt's Relation and Of Plymouth Plantation. He, and other members of the Wampanoag confederation, knew English, which shocked the settlers of Plymouth Colony, especially when Samoset walked into their settlement and said "Welcome, Englishmen!" in English. It seems likely from those examples that First Nations people in what is now Canada would have had similar experiences, especially since the OP is asking about the 1690s, and those examples are from the 1620s. Certainly, contact in the intervening decades would have only increased. --Jayron32 11:54, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
• All this said… at the time in question, I think it is more likely that more First Nation peoples living in Canada would have spoken French rather than English. There would have been little need to learn English. English companies such as the HBC hired French speaking voyageurs to travel into the interior to trade. And almost all Englishmen the First Nations would have had contact with would have spoken French as a second language. Blueboar (talk) 13:38, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

  While true, that is also a bridge too far to presume that literally zero First Nations persons spoke English. The OP didn't ask about trends or general principles, they asked if ANY First Nations people living in (what I presume they mean Today's country of) Canada would have spoken English. It seems unlikely that literally no one did, given the ample history of contact between the English and indigenous people in the area. Certainly, some fisherman setting up temporary camps and trading with coastal peoples (something we know was happening in this area literally for decades) would have had the opportunity to teach English to, and to learn native languages from, such indigenous people. It's not just speculation, we have examples from only a few hundred miles away. --Jayron32 13:55, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Why do school kids bully each other almost every day

I think school children bully each other because they lack confidence in themselves, and they come from different families with different discipline and morals, they need to be groomed to accept who they are and where the come from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.114.83.150 (talk) 06:28, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

We have an article on Bullying. HiLo48 (talk) 06:37, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Gas price trends for various countries over time

A ton of people here in the States are complaining of gas prices. No surprise there. Often people will come up with arguments like "You should see prices in <insert foreign country>!" But that's such an apples to oranges comparison due to differences in taxes, if they produce petroleum, etc. And those prices also the only data I can find.

What I'm looking for is data about trends in various countries. Is that information freely available anywhere? I found a site that would happily take my money for such data but nothing free. And my curiosity isn't so strong to want to pay for answers. :) I'd opt If you can help me find trend data, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks, †dismas†|^(talk) 17:52, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Presumably we're talking about gasoline and not natural gas which is a bigger issue in Europe at the moment. Alansplodge (talk) 18:21, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, if you want data from other countries, this is a time when Americans have to recognise that their version of English is different from most of the rest of the world. Where I live, gas does not mean the stuff I fuel my car with. Well it can, but then I would be talking about liquefied petroleum gas. Then there's the fact that most people in my country would not have a clue how big a gallon is. I don't think you really have any interest in gas prices in my country. I pay for that at the rate of 2.65 cents per megajoule. HiLo48 (talk) 23:25, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I think you would be able to get information up to 2020 free of charge here if you are willing to create a (free) IEA account. Matt's talk 18:37, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Another option, you could use the wayback machine to compare current and previous data published at www.globalpetrolprices.com. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 18:46, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

For example, if you look at the five countries with the cheapest and most expensive petrol today, and check in at your timeline points of six months ago, one year ago and five years ago, you get prices per litre in US$ like this:70.67.193.176 (talk) 19:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Venezuela. Today 0.022. Nov 2021 0.000. May 2021 0.020. May 2017 0.01.

Libya. Today 0.031. Nov 2021 (no data). May 2021 (no data). May 2017 (no data)

Iran. Today 0.053. Nov 2021 0.060. May 2021 0.068. May 2017 0.37.

Syria. Today 0.286. Nov 2021 0.231. May 2021 1.456. May 2017 1.05.

Algeria. Today 0.314. Nov 2021 0.332. May 2021 0.344. May 2017 0.32.

Monaco. Today 2.361. Nov 2021 1.978. May 2021 1.909. May 2017 1.68.

Central African Rep. Today 2.386. Nov 2021 2.094. May 2021 2.034. May 2017 1.44.

Denmark. Today 2.463. Nov 2021 2.150. May 2021 1.970. May 2017 1.62.

Norway. Today 2.547. Nov 2021 2.205. May 2021 2.068. May 2017 1.79.

Hong Kong. Today 2.897. Nov 2021 2.631. May 2021 2.497. May 2017 1.90.

Depending on measures and time frames, here's a source: [[1]], Hong Kong is US$2.90/liter, or $10.97/gallon. DOR (HK) (talk) 18:50, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, everyone, I'm referring to gas/fuel/petrol that you would put in your car. †dismas†|^(talk) 23:29, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

I repeat, I might put something we call gas IN MY CAR here in Australia, but then I would be talking about liquefied petroleum gas, which isn't petrol, or gasoline. When Americans say "gas" on an international platform, they really do need to ALWAYS clarify. HiLo48 (talk) 05:54, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm very sorry, HiLo48 (talk · contribs), it was not my intention to be such an uncaring ass. I'll see myself out. †dismas†|^(talk) 09:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I just want Americans to realise that their version of English is in many ways very different from that used in other parts of the world, and in some cases, like this one, very confusingly so. I've seen Americans writing online as if gas pipelines in eastern Europe, impacted by wars such as that currently in Ukraine, carry the stuff they put in their cars. They don't. HiLo48 (talk) 10:31, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

• I suggest that it is not helpful to imagine that variations in English usage are something that should be blamed specifically on Ameicans. --174.95.161.143 (talk) 02:56, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Those same people perhaps think that Colorado Interstate Gas distributes gas for use on interstate highways in Colorado, and who knows how they interpret Peoples Gas? I mean, these are ambiguous uses of "gas" in America, so any Americans getting mixed up are just suffering from ignorance, not a language problem.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:01, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

For cheap gas eat beans. DuncanHill (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Why are no large cities on Canada's Atlantic coast?

I am guessing this may be explained by the ability of large container ships to go upstream all the way to Montreal. Can that be considered a reasonable explanation? Michael Hardy (talk) 23:57, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Halifax? Or is that not large enough? Blueboar (talk) 00:45, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Halifax is small compared to Montreal or Toronto (ships that cross the Atlantic can reach Toronto too, but I think few of them do, and I surmise that that's because that's more expensive than going to Montreal). Vancouver, BC is part of a conurbation that is fairly big even though the part that is strictly within the city limits of Vancouver is just a small part of that. I suppose there's a question of how much freight imported to or exported from Canada goes through Halifax, and I don't know the answer to that. Michael Hardy (talk) 05:06, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

If you mean a coastal urban area of 1 million or more, then there are none north of Boston. I don't think that containerization started to have a big economic impact until the 1970s, which seems a little late to explain Canada's pattern of major cities. AnonMoos (talk) 03:34, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Since the Saint Lawrence is navigable up to Montreal, that was a logical place for a major city, far more accessible o the continental interior than anything farther south and east than maybe Albany. Acroterion (talk) 04:02, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: So what? Before container ships there were other large ships carrying freight. They were able to go upstream all the way to Montreal. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

But you were the one seeking to explain the settlement pattern in terms of, specifically, container ships.  --Lambiam 07:12, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

The 5 Largest Major Ports in Canada has 1. Vancouver (on the west coast), 2. Montreal, 3. Prince Rupert, British Columbia, 4. Halifax NS, 5. Saint John, New Brunswick.

Note that a modern large port does not equate with a large city; the UK's busiest port is located next to the sleepy seaside town of Felixtowe, population 141,000. Alansplodge (talk) 08:48, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Pretty certain that figure is wrong. The local District Council (East Suffolk) places the population at circa 24,000. (Felixstowe Town profile) The source for the 141,000 figure won't load for me so I can't check it.--Phil Holmes (talk) 12:25, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

@Phil Holmes: Felixstowe is a few miles from Ipswich, population 133,384. 2A02:C7C:365E:E700:497A:B97C:8087:CCF8 (talk) 12:36, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I volunteer in Felixstowe and worked in Ipswich, so know both quite well.--Phil Holmes (talk) 14:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

It was changed from 23,699 by a mobile edit on 6 March 2022. Possible vandalism. I have replaced it with the 2017 figure quoted above. Alansplodge (talk) 14:01, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Québec used to be the main port on Canada's Atlantic coast (as one would expect) and that's why it's a large city, but, as noted above, in modern days the correlation between the size of a port and the size of its host city isn't very strong. The lack of large cities on Canada's Atlantic coast may have more to do with the unfriendly climate and poor conditions for agriculture. It's pretty cold for its latitude. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:12, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: Milford Haven is the UK's fourth busiest port - I've not researched the locations of nos. 2 and 3. 2A02:C7C:365E:E700:497A:B97C:8087:CCF8 (talk) 11:44, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Second is Port of Southampton and third is the Port of Tilbury, the sad remnant of the London Docks, once the busiest in the world. Alansplodge (talk) 11:57, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Milford Haven is specialised in oil and LNG, liquids coming in very large ships. That allows for a huge tonnage compared to the number of jobs. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:43, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

• To get us back to Canada… a big issue is simple geography: the Maritime provinces have few sizable natural harbors. Most of the coast consists of small, rocky inlets… fine for a fishing village, but a navigational hazard for bulk cargo ships. Meanwhile, the St. Laurence River is one giant harbor. This moved trade inland, which limited growth on the coast. Blueboar (talk) 15:32, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

I note that OP says: (...) the ability of large container ships to go upstream all the way to Montreal. According to our article on container ships, they come in 7 size categories: small feeder, feeder, feedermax, Panamax, Post-Panamax, New Panamax and ultra-large. The largest container ships that can reach Montréal are of the feedermax category, so they are medium-sized, not large. They are mostly for the shorter distances, but may occasionally cross the ocean.

I think it all comes down to two points:

• Places that were important ports around 100 years ago were likely to become large cities. The limit of navigation for both windjammers and Panamax ships is Québec (which became a large city), so there was no need to build large ports further east – and it would have been hard anyway. Nowadays, the large ships go to Halifax, but thanks to containerisation we no longer need a large city to support a large port.
• Some coastal cities get large without having an important port, but they need something else, like tourism or agriculture. The climate on Canada's Atlantic coast rules that out. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:43, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

The limit of navigation was LAchine Rapids in Montreal - and the locations of these cities were set hundreds of years before the 1920s and long before any large ships anyways. It mostly depends on the beavers. Rmhermen (talk) 01:57, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

• In the east of the U.S. most of the earliest "large cities" were somewhat-to-significantly inland; and developed on well-protected natural harbors, usually at a point which were the furthest upriver where a large ship could reach; think like London. None of these cities had significant beachfront property. You don't stand in, say Manhattan, and walk to the Atlantic Ocean itself. Even Boston, when you zoom in on it, is well protected, there are several levels of protective land before you get to the Shawmut Peninsula. New York (historically Manhattan) also developed similarly due to a supremely well-protected harbor; it is several miles from the open seas before you get to Manhattan. Moving down the coast, you see similarly well-inland cities like Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, D.C., Norfolk, Wilmington, Charleston, Savannah, Jacksonville, Miami. If you look at every one of these cities, you don't find a city lying on the open beach, indeed they are all lying somewhat inland along a navigable inland waterway of some sort, usually as far as ships could reach. Some are closer to the coast than others, but they all have that in common. Look along eastern Canada for similar Geography. As noted, the St. Lawrence River as far as Montreal, meets this requirement. The position of Montreal, Philadelphia, and Baltimore are all essentially the same relative to their neighboring waterway, it's just that the St. Lawrence remains navigable much farther inland than any other east coast waterway. The only other similarly protected harbors are at St. John and Halifax; as noted above these are among Canada's top 5 largest ports. --Jayron32 12:16, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

May 22

Color change

On American road signs what advantage does fluorescent yellow green (a color that looks wet) have over yellow (which looks dry)?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:06, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Apparently the fluorescent yellow-green is more visible and easier to spot at further distances because it reflects more light back than plain yellow.[2][3] Zzyzx11 (talk) 03:00, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

In daytime at least. Fluorescence makes the sign brighter under blue and UV light, so it works best in sunny conditions. It's not retroreflective, making it useless at night. But school zone signs are only really needed in daytime (well, in winter school may start just before sunrise). Furthermore, yellow is a common colour in built-up areas: billboards, parked cars, clothing, waste containers. Fluorescent yellow green is only really used for warning signs. PiusImpavidus (talk) 10:59, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

While some states have violated the rule, fluorescent yellow-green is actually ONLY supposed to be used for pedestrian, bicycle, and school crossing signs, according to the MUTCD. See [4] The color known as "standard yellow" is used for other warning signs. The idea is to have a unique visual cue for pedestrian crossings, given the unique squishiness of pedestrians. AFAIK, this was an optional color change made in the 1980s, and at some point since has been made mandatory. Generally, if places in the U.S. are using fluorescent yellow-green for other signs, such as intersection warnings and the like, that is contraindicated by the MUTCD. --Jayron32 12:22, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

May 23

What did Weymouth do to deserve the Bronze Star?

On the 14th of February 1944 the King was pleased to grant unrestricted permission for Major the Viscount Weymouth, Royal Wilts Yeomanry, to wear the Bronze Star. Do we know what he did to deserve it? Thanks. DuncanHill (talk) 00:23, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Page 194 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8682667 Nanonic (talk) 02:32, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Pages 195 and 196 give a little more info too. Nanonic (talk) 02:34, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@Nanonic: Many thanks - that made me laugh! Seems pretty much what one would have thought. DuncanHill (talk) 02:48, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time finding anything more than the basic details in the archives link. What's so funny? Clarityfiend (talk) 06:47, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Click 'preview this image' to see the actual records. Nanonic (talk) 08:19, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Of his later adventures in Normandy, Anthony Beevor says:

Corlett’s XIX Corps headquarters was made more colourful by its British liaison officer, Viscount Weymouth (soon to become the 6th Marquess of Bath), ‘a tall Britisher who had gained a reputation for eccentricity because of some of his trips through the German lines and his habit of leading two ducks around on a leash’. [5]

Alansplodge (talk) 11:41, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

His 1992 obituary in The Independant says:

During the Second World War, he rejoined his regiment, the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, and served at Alamein, where he was wounded. After his convalescence he served as British Liaison Officer to the American 19th Corps, who called him 'Hank the Yank'. [6]

Alansplodge (talk) 12:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

How ridiculous, not at all the sort of thing the 7th Marquess of Bath might do.  Card Zero  (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@Clarityfiend: The Bronze Star for was for his work as a liaison officer in Wiltshire. It shouldn't have been awarded, but it was allowed to stand so as not to hurt the Americans' feelings. DuncanHill (talk) 14:33, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Penzance-Aberdeen express in the 1920's

According to our article Hypocrites' Club, members of the related Railway Club "dined in black-tie aboard of the Penzance-Aberdeen express between Oxford and Leicester". What was the route of this train at the time? Even better, do we have an example timetable? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 02:05, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Scant info in https://www.penwithlocalhistorygroup.co.uk/on-this-day/?id=236 Nanonic (talk) 02:39, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@Nanonic: Thanks - that gives Plymouth, Exeter, Taunton, Swindon, Oxford, Banbury, Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh and Dundee as the principal stops. DuncanHill (talk) 14:38, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Bradshaw's Guide for March 1961 gives clues as to what the other intermediate stops might have been. A typical main line train calls at Truro (1h 3m), Liskeard (2h 20m), Plymouth (3h 15m), Newton Abbot (4h 23m), Exeter (St David's) (4h 57m) and Taunton (5h 37m). Main line services from Taunton typically call at Westbury (6h 30m), while services from Westbury typically call at Trowbridge (6h 39m) and Chippenham (7h 03m). Services from Chippenham typically call at Swindon (7h 33m). A through train to York on Saturday night/Sunday morning departing Swindon 22:25 (on weekdays it leaves at 21:40) calls:

Oxford arr 23:15 (8h 23m)

Oxford dep 23:35 (8h 43m)

Banbury General arr 00:09 (9h 17m)

Banbury General dep 00:20 (9h 28m)

Rugby (Central) dep 01:07 (10h 15m)

Leicester (Central) dep 01:39 (10h 47m)

Loughborough (Central) dep 01:56 (11h 04m)

Nottingham (Victoria) dep 02:30 (11h 38m)

Sheffield (Victoria) dep 04:12 (13h 20m)

York arr 05:24 (14h 32m)

Between Nottingham (Victoria) and Sheffield (Victoria) trains travel via Chesterfield (Central). Between Sheffield (Victoria) and York they travel via Rotherham (Central) and Doncaster. Main line services from York typically call at Darlington (15h 29m), Newcastle (16h 14m) and Edinburgh (Waverley) (18h 25m). Main line services from Edinburgh (Waverley) typically call at Dundee (Tay Bridge) (19h 49m), Arbroath (20h 10m) and Aberdeen (21h 25m). The sector lengths are: Penzance to Taunton 162 1/4 miles, Taunton to Oxford 114 1/4 miles, Oxford to Banbury 22 3/4 miles, Banbury to Woodford Halse 11 miles, Woodford Halse to Sheffield (Victoria) 95 1/2 miles, Sheffield (Victoria) to Edinburgh (Waverley) 250 1/4 miles, and Edinburgh (Waverley) to Aberdeen 130 1/2 miles. Total mileage 786 1/2. I don't know what the mileage from Penzance to Aberdeen would be today: Woodford Halse railway station, Rugby Central railway station, Leicester Central railway station, Nottingham Victoria railway station, Chesterfield Central railway station and Sheffield Victoria railway station have all been closed. 2A02:C7C:365E:E700:18D:B732:4EE4:44CB (talk) 11:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Confirming year and city of the protest

In 1980s Pakistan women were protesting discriminatory laws implemented by then military regime of Gen. Zia. At least in one protest protesters burned their outer layer modesty garment called Dupatta / Chaadar due to state's attempt to impose the garment on women (and not leaving it as individuals choice).

I do have one detail enough academic ref of Ayesha Khan · 2018 ISBN: 9781786735232 giving year 1987 and city Lahore. Since another credible Pakistani news paper reference mentions year 1981 and city of protest Karachi, I will prefer a credible corroboration from some source, (preferably from previous decades). Requesting help, thanks.

Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 14:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

I found an interview with Lala Rukh, with a photo at the bottom of the WAF burning their chadaars in 1983. If you read the text, the photo can only reasonably be assumed have been taken in Lahore, because that's where Lala Rukh (activist) was living and active (activating?), and I hope this is some help, even though it's from 1983 not 1987. This is from Zubaan Books, and I can reach the main page of their site, but this specific page with the interview won't load for me ("The site is experiencing technical difficulties"), so I have linked to the archived version.  Card Zero  (talk) 15:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Is there an article that lists the dates of religious festivals within a year?

Lots of religious festivals, Easter, Ramadan, Passover, etc. have different dates each year. Is there a single article that lists such things? JeffUK (talk) 15:27, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Not as such, no. There are a few for individual religions, such as List of movable Western Christian observances, but there is no master list of all of them for all possible religions. Category:Lists of observances may be a good place for you to start your research. --Jayron32 15:56, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Passover always starts on Nisan 15th, and Ramadan always starts on Ramadan 1st. Easter is different in that it's a moveable feast, which is to say, it's calculated using a lunisolar calendar the same as Passover, but within a culture that wants the answer translated into a day of the Gregorian year. So no, I don't think there's a single article, but Jewish and Israeli holidays 2000-2050 gives dates for Passover (Pesach) and there's this handy but slightly incorrect table from the Ramadan article. There's also Category:Holidays based on the date of Easter and Paschal cycle to consider, if those are in the scope of your question.  Card Zero  (talk) 16:02, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

By the way, the Islamic calendar can't be predicted exactly in advance, since the beginning of each month depends on observations of the thin lunar crescent (almost-new moon) right after sunset (and such observations may only apply regionally). There are some precalculated calendar variants, for use by businesses, or for determining approximate future date equivalences, but many Muslims would object to a precalculated calendar being used to set the dates of important Islamic observances. AnonMoos (talk) 07:39, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Names and pronunciations

Hi,

In the articles about Greek philosophers or dialogues, there are their original names in Greek language and in the following the same names are written in normal latin letters. For example in the article Cratylus:

Cratylus (/ˈkrætɪləs/ KRAT-il-əs; Ancient Greek: Κρατύλος, Kratylos)

What is "Kratylos" here? Is it a pronunciation? If it is, in what language? It doesn't look like a phonetic alphabet.

Cengiz Cebi Philosophy graduate student — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.173.78.209 (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

That's a transliteration of Κρατύλος. (I made each letter into a link.) The accented letter ύ is Upsilon with a "high pitch", make what you will of that, but apparently y is close enough.  Card Zero  (talk) 20:07, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Ancient Greek υ was pronounced like German ü (umlauted u) during Hellenistic times. The Romans used the Latin letter "y" for Greek upsilon, so we're kind of stuck with "y" now. Ancient Greek had a "pitch accent" system (using tones, but very different from a Chinese-type tonal system). The differences between -os and -us are due to Greek vs. Latin noun declensions. AnonMoos (talk) 23:03, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

That vowel is now /y/ in the International Phonetic Alphabet. —Tamfang (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

For Wikipedia's transliteration convention for Ancient Greek names, see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Greek) § Transliteration.  --Lambiam 22:42, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

May 24

Was there ever a place called "Mirenburg"?

In a couple of Michael Moorcock's semi-realistic novels (e.g.), one milieu is the fictitious city of 'Mirenburg' in the fictitious Germanic state of 'Waldenstein' (the latter not intended to be one of the real places of that name).

I would have assumed that the city's name was merely a plausible invention by Moorcock, but a search on "pages containing" reveals a couple of real people with the family name Mirenburg, which has the appearance of a Toponymic surname.

Does anyone have evidence that this name was ever that of a real place (presumably in a sometime-German speaking part of Europe), or if there was a placename in another language that might have been rendered into German as "Mirenburg"? If not, what is its origin as a surname? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.209.235.54 (talk) 01:42, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

There is a Merenberg in Hesse, Germany. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:03, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The surname is found as Миренбург in Russia^[7] (and for the co-owner of a sawmill in 1919 in Belarus as Мірэнбург.^[8]). The Russian site suggests it is an alteration of "Merenburg", said to be a community of the Hesse district of Limburg-Weilburg. This refers presumably to the same community as Merenberg, so this toponymical theory requires two vowel alterations. The surname "Merenburg" is also found, in particular in the Netherlands.^[9] This is also the name of a former country house near Amsterdam,^[10] but a country house is not a likely toponymical origin for a surname.  --Lambiam 09:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

There is also an ancient family name "von Mehrenburg".^[11]  --Lambiam 09:39, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Also of note is that there is a problem with the distinction between -berg (hill) and -burg (fortification) which, while sounding different in German, often get confused in other languages due to the often fluid nature of vowels and especially in English, where most dialects would make those two sound identical. Which is to say that just because some doubly transliterated term has been taken from the Latin alphabet, into the Cyrillic alphabet, and back into the Latin alphabet; we should be saying that two words don't refer to the same place because the vowels are not exactly identical. SOme allowances should be made for those sorts of things. --Jayron32 16:32, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

In Russian, though, we find clearly distinct vowels, /burk/ versus /bʲɪrk/.  --Lambiam 19:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't speak nor read Russian, but I do know that orthography is always a complicating factor when considering linguistics. --Jayron32 12:43, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Last major naval fleet battle in the history of warfare?

Question as topic. Talking about multiple warship on warship combat, specifically. Which was the last one (so far)?

Was it during the Falklands War? Though I don't think that was a particular large one, compared to the past - and it was mostly ships being attacked via planes and missiles anyway. --146.200.128.101 (talk) 02:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

A quick Google search sugggests the Battle of Leyte Gulf, but doubtless there are other contenders depending on how you define navel battle. Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:17, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The Battle of Surigao Strait (a sub-battle of Leyte Gulf) was apparently the last "classic" ca. 1900 style battleship duel, without airplanes significantly involved... AnonMoos (talk) 10:34, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

See List of naval battles. Depends on how you define major. Destroyers and larger ships? Missile boats? Clarityfiend (talk) 09:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

A fleet engagement in the Falklands War was avoided by the sinking of ARA General Belgrano by a British submarine, wherepon the Argentinian fleet retired to port. Prior to that, there was the sinking of the Indian frigate INS Khukri by a Pakistani submarine in 1971, the Israeli frigate INS Eilat by missile boats in 1967 and the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964 when USS Maddox was sunk by Vietnamese motor torpedo boats, none of which can really be called "fleet engagements". Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

The Maddox was not "sunk" - see USS Maddox (DD-731)#Gulf of Tonkin incident. MarnetteD|Talk 22:14, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, I stand corrected. The damage amounted to a single bullet hole. Alansplodge (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Was the Roman Empire socialist?

Did the Roman Empire become "socialist" after the end of the Republic, which eventually led to its fall? For example, one could argue that it became a "welfare state" in a sense, becoming weaker and weaker with limited incentives, limited business innovation, the citizens became dependent on the government, etc. I've read things like Augustus giving monetary handouts to Roman children coming-of-age, the state controlling entire industries such as brick-making, etc. These seem like socialist practices, would I be wrong? I'm confused about the economy as well. It was largely agricultural, I know, but what percentage of the output came from free citizens, versus slaves/via state controlled means? Deedman22 (talk) 21:39, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Mainly the Roman city mob got the handouts. If you were a peasant outside Italy, then you were much more likely to face an extreme tax burden, rather than receive any handouts. Over time, the Roman Empire evolved in a direction similar to feudalism, rather than anything that could be called "socialism". AnonMoos (talk) 21:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

There have been debates by historians, engineers etc. about the Roman Empire's overall curious lack of technological inventiveness, compared to some other periods of European/Mediterranean history. One factor is that the use of slave labor discouraged the invention of labor-saving gadgets, but that's probably not the only factor. AnonMoos (talk) 21:58, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Hmmm... 16 Historical Roman Inventions That Helped Shape the Modern World. Alansplodge (talk) 22:32, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

It's conspicuous that all of the "inventions" on that list are administrative/architectural/military, not one of them is a labor-saving gadget, while some of them are of very dubious value (e.g. Roman numerals), some of them are very dubiously "Roman" (such as the Julian calendar, which was based on the knowledge of the Egyptian astronomer Sosigenes), and some of them were luxury toys for elites which were abandoned after the decline of the Roman Empire, and so did not survive as a basis for further technical advancements (e.g. hypocausts). AnonMoos (talk) 00:51, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

P.S. It's also a little odd that the "codex" manuscript form (as opposed to traditional scrolls) was used far more by despised and persecuted Christians than by the ruling/elite classes of the pagan era of the Roman Empire ("principate"). AnonMoos (talk) 01:00, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

A monarchy giving alms to the poor or maintaining control of certain industries isn't socialism. (Of course, the Roman Empire wasn't a monarchy, no siree. You can tell, because the guy at the top was calling himself "Commander" (Imperator) rather than "King" (Rex). Which is totally different). Iapetus (talk) 09:10, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Many causes have been proposed for the fall of the (Western) Roman Empire, but socialism is not one of them. The practices of early Christian communities have been described as a form of communism, and the spread of Christianity is on the list, but seeing Christian practices as a contributing factor is a long shot. (Additionally, I don't get why socialism is seen as weakening a society. The Northern European "welfare states" are faring well.) My money is on this proposed contributing factor, given in the section Fall of the Western Roman Empire § Military, financial, and political ineffectiveness: the process of failure: "Corruption, in this context the diversion of finance from the needs of the army, may have contributed greatly to the Fall."  --Lambiam 09:38, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• Socialism is a economic theory developed and implemented specifically in response to the early-to-mid 19th century conditions that depended on the specific type of industrial economies that were happening in the West at that time. To say that anything prior to that was "socialist", explicitly, is anachronistic. Certainly, ideas that would later be incorporated into socialism, such as common ownership of the means and/or results of production, had existed in some form since time immemorial, to say that some group or society or time period prior to the 19th century was "socialist" is just not correct. --Jayron32 12:41, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

coat of arms of Diego de Vargas (Q96657581)

I'm curious why there seems to be two variants: one appearing in Crusaders of the Río Grande (Q112123057) and thence Kiva, Cross, and Crown (Q112123304) (and perhaps also Don Diego de Vargas Zapata Luján Ponce de León, El Marques de la Nava de Barcinas (Q96631042)) which is significantly different from that in portrait of Diego de Vargas (copy) (Q96639516). Did his arms change over his lifetime, or did one of the sources get it wrong?

I made a sloppy attempt at vectorisations of each in the hopes of more clearly comparing them, and they can be viewed here (or if that loads sluggishly for you, try these PNG links: painting & books/sculpture). Arlo James Barnes 23:05, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

This is a cutout of the coat of arms from (a fuzzy image of) the painting. The image from Crusaders as it appears in Kiva, Cross, and Crown can be seen here. A sharper version appears side-by-side with an even fuzzier painting here.  --Lambiam 09:10, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi Arlo James Barnes, this article explains (page 310-315) that the painting was later copied with a different version of the coat of arms, and the two were described in the scholarly literature at different times, so yes there are two versions circulating in the sources. In fact, page 314 shows both your versions side by side. This article also explains the four elements (which appear in both versions, though in different order): the waves are for the Vargas family and represent a miracle of a spring. The boots are the Zapata Lujan family. What the walls represent is not known. The lion quarter is also obscure, but may be for the Ponce de Leon family. Spanish_heraldry explains how the Spanish coats of arms eventually came to represent ancestry but the "modern" format with the four grandparents in designated quarters was just coming in during Diego de Vargas's time so I think that's why the article couldn't say clearly which families were represented on this particular device. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

May 25

Eucharistic forum shopping

Let's say you are an RCC member and you live in California and work in Washington DC. You go to the California RCC branch for communion but the priest says "die, heretic!" (or whatever the formal liturgical equivalent is) and doesn't give it to you.[12] But the priest at the Washington DC branch is ok with it, sort of like a circuit split in the secular legal system. Can you just get it in Washgington, decide for yourself that it "counts", and leave any further judgment up to God? Or will the Church authorities somehow hassle you over what you are doing? The person in this predicament (not me) is too well known to do this type of thing quietly or anonymously. Thanks. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:738F (talk)

See [13] [14]. Nil Einne (talk) 05:35, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

The Pope has already said they shouldn't deny communion to politicians based on their opinions, so we'll just see who the real "heretic" turns out to be. --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:08, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks both. Nil Einne's first link (religionnews) clarified the matter pretty well, the dioceses have only local jurisdiction and you can get communion anywhere. The question of whether the Washington communion "counts" in California didn't come up, but I'd be surprised if there is doctrine about that. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:738F (talk) 06:28, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

There is a procedure Excommunication (Catholic Church) which has not been set in motion here. 2A02:C7C:365E:E700:18D:B732:4EE4:44CB (talk) 10:20, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

• There's two separate issues here; priests are (AFAIK) generally proscribed from giving communion to people they know to be unqualified to receive it, and individuals are similarly proscribed from receiving communion if they themselves are not qualified to so receive it. Many missalettes or orders of worship will contain explicit instructions for worshippers on who is or is not qualified to receive communion (for example, non-Catholic christians are generally proscribed from receiving communion even if they are believers; this may be different for other Christian denominations). The deal is, if the priest doesn't know if the receiver is supposed to receive the communion they will generally just give it; it is generally between the receiver and God to know if the receiver is getting it "against the rules" as it were. If it is someone the priest 'actually knows' to be unqualified, they may refuse to grant communion, but your scenario presumes the person in question is unknown to the priest. In that case, the priest will give communion and is not under any interdict not to; nothing bad happens to the priest. Whether anything bad happens to the person receiving said communion depends on your own personal theology and belief in the afterlife, which is outside of the scope of this venue. --Jayron32 13:45, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  The scenario actually presumes the person to be well known, like certain 79-year old officials that regularly appear on TV.  --Lambiam 15:54, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

  • Yeah by "consequences for the receiver" of receiving communion while not qualified, I meant both 1) earthly consequences such as your archbishop sending Cardinal Fang & associates to your house (unexpectedly of course) to put you in the comfy chair and poke you with a soft pillow; and 2) heavenly consequences as held in RCC doctrine, whether or not one believes the doctrine. I had particularly wondered whether the person could be considered saved in Washington but damned in California. In this case the person is famous enough to necessarily be known to both priests, although maybe that could be defeated by a disguise. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:738F (talk) 15:20, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
    • The archbishop isn't sending anyone to your house to do anything. --Jayron32 17:13, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

This was a reference to The Spanish Inquisition (Monty Python). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:11, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm quite aware. I've seen the sketch in question. Many times. --Jayron32 17:35, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Name of Japanese man in Manchuria

I'm looking for the article on a Japanese man (either a Diplomat or Military officer) who was in Japan during the interwar period and WW2. He held positive views on the Chinese people until an incident where he was beaten up on the street, after that he adopted anti-chinese views. His page was featured in the "Did you know ..." section. I have already tried the search function and detailed search functions in the "Did you know ..." archives and for all articles and I just can't find the specific article I am looking for. I apologize if this is not the right place for such a question but I don't know where else to look. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.223.36.24 (talk) 12:14, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Sasaki Tōichi 59.102.44.51 (talk) 14:44, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you ~~81.223.36.24 2001:4BB8:2C1:7174:ED1D:A7E8:1DA0:7E61 (talk) 21:50, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

US mortgage question

1. What are the exact steps for paying the down payment for a mortgage?

For cash purchase of a home, my understanding of the process is:

Step 1. the escrow agent will provide me with the account number of the escrow account

Step 2. I will go to my bank, provide them this account number, and initiate a wire transfer for the purchase amount

Step 3. later in the day the escrow agent will inform me that the payment has been received

(This is just my understanding. I have never done this before. Any correction will be greatly appreciated.)

What about the process when I'm taking out a mortgage with a bank? Is it the same as the above, but replace "escrow agent" with "bank employee"?

2. The Federal Housing Administration has fixed mortgage limits assigned for each US county. I'm not sure what exactly this means. Let's say there's a $900,000 house in an county with a FHA mortgage limit of $500,000. The borrower is putting down a down payment of $500,000 and plans to get a mortgage with a loan amount of $400,000. Does this situation qualify for a FHA mortgage?

The loan amount ($400,000) is below the FHA mortgage limit of $500,000, but the house value ($900,000) isn't.

Thanks in advance.Mũeller (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Federal Housing Administration uses two different terms: "mortgage limit"[15] and "loan limit"[16]. I'm not sure whether these two terms refer to the same thing or not. In the hypothetical situation above, my understanding is that $400,000 is being loaned, and thus it needs to be below the "loan limit". Mũeller (talk) 20:15, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Is there any reason you are asking us rather than the mortgage company handling the details of your loan, or the lawyers that are managing the transaction? It seems like people who deal with such transactions as their entire career would be better positioned to answer these questions, and presumably you have access to them if you are in the process of obtaining the loan in question? Random people on the internet are usually less likely to know the details of a job than are the people actually doing that job. --Jayron32 17:34, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

May 26

Infamous "Latin America" gaffe

I know it's frequently attributed to Dan Quayle, and he didn't really say that - but who was it who actually said something about how he'd been on a trip to Latin America and after seeing the place and it's people, it made him wish that he could speak Latin? Seen it claimed that Al Gore and George W. Bush said it too. What is the origin of that? --146.200.128.101 (talk) 04:43, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

How do you know it wasn't Quayle? --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:44, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

OK, it turns out that it started as a joke by Claudine Schneider, and evolved into a truism. Kind of like Buddy Hackett's joke about Neil Armstrong saying "Good luck, Mr. Gorsky!" --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:51, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

For a reference, see A Dan Quayle Joke from The Washington Post. Alansplodge (talk) 10:39, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that report was parroted in quite a few other newspapers within a few days of its publication. But apparently it didn't help! --←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:31, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

The pre-WW2 version of this joke was claiming that Ma Ferguson said that "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me"... AnonMoos (talk) 14:25, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Motionless with patient lust

In the episode "Advice & Consent" of the popular television series All Creatures Great and Small Tristan says of another character "He’s like a big glossy spider hanging after that girl" and Siegfried replies "'Motionless with patient lust at the centre of his web',’ who wrote that?". So, who did write that? The episode was filmed in 1977, and is set in the 30s. Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 16:57, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Possibly a riff on this line from the Memoirs of Sherlock Holmes? "He is the Napoleon of crime, Watson. He is the organizer of half that is evil and of nearly all that is undetected in this great city. He is a genius, a philosopher, an abstract thinker. He has a brain of the first order. He sits motionless, like a spider in the centre of its web, but that web has a thousand radiations, and he knows well every quiver of each of them." 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:29, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Is there any reason to suspect it is someone other than the credited screenwriters? --Jayron32 17:31, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I assume that it's because the character himself suggests that it's a quote from elsewhere? It could be original, of course, but the show is literally inviting listeners to provide the proper source for the quote. 64.235.97.146 (talk) 18:02, 26 May 2022 (UTC)