Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

See also
Wikipedia talk:Writing better articles
Wikipedia talk:Article titles
Wikipedia talk:Quotations
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/quotation and punctuation

Possessives of proper names ending in "s"

If there is a rule in the Wikipedia guidelines for forming possessives of names ending in "s", I haven't been able to find it. I've been following the rule that if you would sound the extra "s" in speech, you use it, otherwise no. For example, it's Mr. Jones's wife, but Mr. Rogers' loafers. What say ye? --Milkbreath 03:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Most (singular) nouns in s form the possessive with "'s"; there is substantial, largely British, usage for omitting the possessive s after fully voiced syllables, like Jesus and Socrates. I have never seen Rogers trested like Jesus, and AmEn tends to have stricter rules than BrEn.

But the important thing is that MoS should not be attempting to manufacture a synthetic "standard English" at all. As long as each article is consistent, we should learn to leave things alone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 08:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

The only thing MOS can do is to point out the options. Personally, I much prefer the easy-to-remember blanket rule of adding 's to any pluralised word. But others will disagree vehemently, and there seems little purpose in prescribing only one practice. Tony 08:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Just as a point of interest, the Chicago, 15th edition, permits the abovementioned sound test "to avoid an awkward appearance". --Milkbreath 21:41, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Every style guide I've ever looked at says to use "Jones's", though one (Fowler's) makes an exception for "names from antiquity" ("Moses'", "Jesus'"), but it was written at a time when most Americans were devout Protestant Christians, reading a King James Bible that uses that convention. I would have to say that the "antiquity" exception is obsolete, religiously PoV, and confusing to boot. So: Use "'s" always, even for "Jesus's", and the MoS should certainly say so. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

PS: The problem with the "sound test" is that it introduces sometimes irresolvable ambiguity, because it is impossible in some context to determine whether the possessive referent is singular or plural. This "always use 's" point isn't "grammar fascism", but precise, encyclopedic writing that avoids confusing the readership. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It's not about religion. No one says "I like (or dislike) Starbucks's coffee", prounounced "starbucksiz". While writing can certainly differ from speech, in this case I think even writing "Starbucks's" comes across as stilted. (Of course the company ought to call itself "Starbuck's" in the first place, since it's the coffee pertaining to Starbuck rather than more than one Starbuck, but we can't do anything about that). --Trovatore 17:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There is also the issue of Greek names such as Euripides. Is there any style guide that actually recommends Euripdes's? — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Any authority? Don't know, but WP's could forge the way if there aren't. I'm in total agreement with SMcCandlish on this. The "always add 's" rule is just so easy. I don't see the point in distinguishing the phonological thing (a nicety Fowler thought he'd push, a long time ago), and the antiquity thing is just too silly and, I agree, is potentially POV. And some authorities worry themselves about words that end in s or ss. I'd strongly support a recommendation in MOS to apply "’s irrespective of the word. But to insist would involve onerous back-compatibility tasks. Tony 01:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where you get this "antiquity" thing. No one I know says "Starbucks's". (And I'm American -- someone claimed Americans are more likely to use the more regular rule, but I see no evidence for that either.) --Trovatore 01:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunate example: wouldn't you just say "Starbucks coffee sucks"? "Starbucks employees"? I guess it might come up with "Starbucks's service is better than that of its competitors". I have no visual or phonological problem where there's no extra syllable. But as I said, MOS might recommend without insisting. Don't you think it's the easiest way? Tony 02:15, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no. I think the easiest way is for the MOS simply not to mention it at all. --Trovatore 03:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and in answer to your first question: I would say "Starbucks' coffee". It would just sound like "Starbucks coffee" :-) --Trovatore 03:34, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Look at Socrates Euripides Aristophanes Xerxes Ramses etc. to see what I mean. Making possessives of these names is a perfectly standard part of English style. — Carl (CBM · talk) 02:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

To make this clearer, the articles use Socrates', Euripides', and so on. We should not impose a style on this; it would be useful to include Fowler's advice on when to use terminal s and when not, for those who edit an article which does distinguish. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:21, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Comma in Template:Age in years and days

Is there a style argument regarding the comma separator between years and days in this context? As in "Myra Nicholson, at age 129 years, 241 days is the oldest Australian currently alive."; or as used in List of living supercentenarians (for example).

The issue is being discussed at the talk page and any help would be appreciated. —Moondyne 07:53, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

English, as opposed to headline dialect, would use "at the age of 112 years and 239 days". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 08:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with the comma? Tony 08:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Excessively colloquial. Headlines use it to save one and a half characters; we're not paper. Omitting it is worse; that's ungrammatical. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

As I stated on the Talk Page ... I say keep the comma. Or consider using the word "and" in lieu of the comma. Thus, in rank order, my preferences are:

(1) John Smith's age is 28 years, 315 days old.

(2) John Smith's age is 28 years and 315 days old.

(3) John Smith's age is 28 years 315 days old. (Joseph A. Spadaro 16:43, 10 August 2007 (UTC))

The first is the most easily recognisable. The second, in some contexts, makes the reader's task a little harder where two chronological measures may conceivably apply (28 years and 315 days). The third is jarring. Tony 03:51, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Why would we ever include the number of days in the age of anyone older than, say, eight years and seventy-two days? — The Storm Surfer 18:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Because the notability claim of some articles is an age record, and sometimes the oldest person in X differs from the next oldest by days. I am not sure these are particularly useful articles; but they amuse some people. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I think that these articles are very useful, educational, and enjoyable. As much as -- or more than -- any other statistic (e.g., baseball batting averages) or record (e.g., first person to climb Mount Everest). And, to Storm Surfer, records for age (the youngest persons to do x,y,z ... or the oldest persons to do x,y,z ... usually need to be delineated by year and days, to distinguish one ranked individual from another. No different than, say, Olympic times for racing in which time is broken down by minute, second, and then even fractions of a second. (Joseph A. Spadaro 19:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC))

Then we should keep them; and if we keep them, we should specify to the day. It would be more idiomatic to use years, months, and days; but we should avoid the anomaly that 1 month and two days is less than one month and one day if the first month is February. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

What of the anomaly that seven years and two days is less than seven years and one day if the first seven years are 1897–1903 and the second are 1904–1910? Of the three choices above I prefer the one with the "and" but "John Smith is 28 years and 315 days old." not "John Smith's age is 28 years and 315 days old."—It's Smith not his age who is almost 29. Jɪmp 14:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This could probably be moved to Template talk:Age in years and days. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:04, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Or WP:MOSNUM, since this question is likely to arise again. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that omitting the comma is ungrammatical; it's simply terse and rather scientific style, and in concert with much else that WP:MOSNUM recommends. We do not write "4 ft and 2 in", but "4 ft 2 in". — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:39, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

But, how would you punctuate the following?

• John Smith is 37 years, 4 months, and 19 days old.
• John Smith is 37 years 4 months and 19 days old.

AND

• The length is 7 yards, 2 feet, and 5 inches.
• The length is 7 yards 2 feet and 5 inches.

I think that, in both circumstances, the comma is useful both grammatically and aesthetically. In the examples with no commas, the sentences are difficult to follow and aesthetically difficult to decipher readily. (Joseph A. Spadaro 02:33, 5 September 2007 (UTC))

I'd punctuate them like this.

• John Smith is 37 years, 4 months and 19 days old.

AND

• The length is 7 yards, 2 feet and 5 inches.

Jɪmp 16:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Need feedback on interpretation of MoS guidelines

This is a dispute on the History of Japan page that involves wikipedia guidelines. Specifically:

If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor.

User:PHG insists that that the first "major contributor" was an anon-IP who simply listed dates with BCE/CE. I would contend that the first m.c. would be here by User:-- April. BC/AD was also used subsequently for many years, until someone inserted text that used BCE/CE. That made the article inconsistent, as BC/AD was still in use in other parts.

Thus at the end of July I made the terms consistent with BC/AD again here. However PHG does not accept this and keeps reverting back my changes.

I would appreciate the views of the MoS community as to what the guidelines say about this. John Smith's 13:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• I am reinstating BCE/CE a the prefered date format for this article, as the first significant user (who started this article with a list of Japanese history periods) clearly marked his preferences for BCE/CE (he uses it something like 30 times). It might be arguable whether his contribution was really significant or not, but I tend to think it is, as he created this article in 2002 at a time when most Wikipedia articles were still in their infancy. His very clear choice for BCE/CE was disregarded by the immediately following user, but I tend to think this is ground enough to reinstate BCE/CE for this article, especially since it is also the best, neutral format for non-Christianity-related articles. User:John Smith's has been unduly replacing BCE/CE by BC/AD as in the Template:History of Japan. Comments welcome. PHG 13:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

  As I said, MoS does not say "significant", it says "major". Also trying to argue that the list of dates was a major contribution because of when he/she wrote it is not a credible argument - we should base our opinions on the current situation, not the low standards of what used to be.

  MoS also states that BC/AD is fine to use. A previous attempt by User:Slrubenstein to get BC/AD labelled as POV and to be replaced by BCE/CE in most cases was rejected by the wikipedia community.

  As to the template, I was merely trying to make the template consistent with the vast majority of articles it is used on. That is following MoS in my opinion. John Smith's 13:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You know very well that the MOS has not approved of your attempt to modify templates according to article content. The Template in question first used BCE/CE, and therefore, per MOS, should stay so. PHG 13:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't ask for them to approve anything - I was asking for an interpretation, which was inconclusive given few views were expressed. John Smith's 13:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

So just respect MOS rules as they are today: BCE/CE was first introduced in this Template, and therefore per MOS should remain so. PHG 13:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You're not respecting MOS rules - you're deliberately misinterpreting them to get your way on the main History of Japan article by trying to argue a list of dates and period is a "major" contribution. Practice what you preach, PHG. John Smith's 13:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I support PHG's judgement here; it seems more appropriate for a Japanese topic (is that non-stylistic reason enough?). But does it really matter that much? Tony 14:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Tony, why is it more appropriate? MoS and the rejected community proposal I outlined indicates that BC/AD is not POV and/or unacceptable to use outside of a Christian context (whatever that would be).

Also, what is your view on the meaning of MoS in regards to a major contributor in this area? John Smith's 14:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• (outdent)I guess it's more appropriate because Japan is not a christian country, and BC/AD is perceived to be overtly christian. But as I intimated, I don't care much; where MOS allows options, why get upset? I'm usually more anxious about options that MOS doesn't allow that I think it should, or vice versa. As for "first major contributor" ... um ... it's hard to arrive at a universally applicable principle; perhaps it just has to be fought out case by case among the contributors. It's a yawn, isn't it? Why does it mean so much to you, this BC/BCE thing? Tony 14:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

  Japan isn't Christian, but as I said the community has rejected the proposal that BC/AD is POV/not suitable for use in "non-Christian" articles.

  It's not easy to get a universally applicable principle? Maybe not but surely a list of dates can't apply - otherwise why bother having the reference to major contribution in the first place?

  Why does it mean anything to me? I guess you could ask the same question of PHG. I care because I don't like his POV-pushing, and I actually made the article consistent in the first place (in recent history). He then jumped in because he doesn't like BC/AD and then did his best to misinterpret MoS guidelines to suit himself. John Smith's 14:26, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds as though it has become overly personal. Who cares? Tony 14:37, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It isn't personal, I merely don't feel that PHG has a right to push his POV against a style that was established before he came along. If you don't care then why are you a part of the MoS community? Surely you care because you comment here (and on this topic). John Smith's 14:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

All I care is that one of the MOS options is chosen. Tony 14:48, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll assume that the guidance listed above is quoted correctly: If an article has been stable in a given style, it should not be converted without a style-independent reason. Where in doubt, defer to the style used by the first major contributor.

Assuming all parties agree to abide by the guidance, to settle the point the first questions to be answered are:

• When was the article last stable in a given style? (let's take "stable" as being at least three months - and before anyone asks, I don't know what the answer to this is)
• What are the arguments for changing from that style?

(Another question to answer would be, is it really worth PHG and John Smith's getting so het up about all this?) Foula 18:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

We should be clearer than we are that "first major contributor" is a fall-back position, used when an article has never been stable in a given style, which (as Foula observes) is the real question here. It is possible for a consensus to decide to change from one style to the other, as with more important matters. Perhaps when it has not been stable, or not clear it has been stable instead of When in doubt?Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

It was stable for a number of years, until someone threw in text that used BCE/CE, with the previously existing BC/AD. John Smith's 19:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Quotes from an article's subject that precedes the lead paragraph

Yay or nay? This might have already been discussed before. See Ulrich Mühe and Michael Haneke. I noticed it was a bit of a dispute on the Ulrich Mühe article, so I figured I'd ask here. Rockstar (^T/_C) 20:29, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• Why not? It's good vivid writing, and (in Ulrich Mühe's case) sums up the case for notability better than the lede. There are risks: the choice of quotation may be an original synthesis, which we avoid; consider what could be done with a quotation at the head of George W. Bush. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't care either way, I just figured I'd get some kind of third opinion before anything escalated. Thanks! :) Rockstar (^T/_C) 21:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• I don't really think it's vivid writing—I think it's gimmicky and amateurish. This sort of cutesiness is something you'd see on some ridiculous fan site. It takes one sentence of the millions that the person uttered and imbues it as the most prominent part of their biography? Plus, imagine if this spread. It'd be awful. "God Does Not Play Dice--Albert Einstein was a theoretical physicist who..." I think this would be fine at WikiQuote, a site founded on the premise that quotations possess some magical significance. I think it's painfully unencyclopedic and childish, not to mention potentially distorting, here. --JayHenry 22:30, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, that "level of amateurishness" is chracteristic of many serious collections of biographies. Eric Temple Bell comes to mind. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Jay. It's a diversion from the standardised role of the lead (standardised loosely, with strong justification IMV). Perhaps on rare occasions it might work; convince me—provide an example. Tony 01:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Although I'm not familiar with the biographies in question, I ask this: what objective criteria can we -- as a collaborative project -- possibly have for which quote is most appropriate to include? Or how do we determine which articles are allowed to lead with a quote? Surely you agree it wouldn't be desirable for every biography to begin with one. Perhaps a quote works well when one expert author is trying to drive a biography with a particular theme; I really think it falls apart in a collaborative encyclopedia where our theme is Just the Facts. --JayHenry 03:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In Ulrich Mühe, the quote is centrally related to his only claim to notability. If it were reedited to make another equal claim, the quote would be more doubtful; but we can cross that bridge when it is built. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a magazine. This is journalistic, not encyclopedic style. I don't like pull quotes in WP articles at all, but I tolerate them (i.e. I don't edit them out on sight), but before the lead? You must be kidding. If there is consensus on the article's talk page that it is vital, put it after the lead, but really, let's get serious. A quote like that simply belongs in the article prose at an appropriate point. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Christian associations of BC/AD

Somebody removed about ten days ago from the Date segment the mention about:"the overtly Christian associations of BC/AD" versus BCE/CE ("(Some writers use CE and BCE to avoid the overtly Christian associations of AD and BC.)" [1]) I believe it is a very commonsense statement, and that it is important to state that BC/AD is not neutral and does have a Christian association (just as the Hijra has a Muslim association). This mention should help us better qualify BC/AD versus the more neutral BCE/CE, and thus help us in the discussions of what is more appropriate and where. I hereby propose to reinstate the phrase regading "the Christian assocations" of BC/AD. PHG 18:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

A discussion took place at WP:MOSNUM that pertains to that edit.

• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#BC/AD and BCE/CE, again
• The diff that changed the MoS - [2]

As a note to all editors out there - it would be infinitely more helpful if a discussion to change central MoS actually took place at the Talk page of central MoS instead of a subset of central MoS. We don't all put every single MoS pages in our watchlists. And it looks like the concensus to make this particular edit only involved about three or four editors - a far less number than the number of editors who have voiced opinions on this date issue at various pages. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• I oppose reinstating the phrase. It is POV and undermines the usage of BC/AD. MOS is quite clear that BC/AD can be used - bringing it is unnecessary. PHG only wants it back because in the past he has used it to challenge the use of BC/AD in any article he sees fit. John Smith's 19:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• I would not accept restoring the phrase without the reason on the other side, such as other writers prefer to use AD/BC as more common and more widely intelligible; but it is better to omit both, and not fuel the Date Wars. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

• I'm quite happy not to see the phrase reinstated. Leave the issue alone in the wording of the manual. Tony 00:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• I'm the one who removed the passage. My reasoning was clearly explained at MOSNUM's talk page before I did it. I did it to try to make the MOS and MOSNUM as neutral as possible in respect to this issue. Leaving that statement in the MOS & MOSNUM left the reader with the impression that BC/AD should be avoided. Taking the statement out leaves the choice of what is better to use in the hands of the editors; where it should be. I also reintroduced the statement that it is inappropriate to change from one style to the other because you are trying to be as politically correct as possible or because you are on a mission from God—just kidding it didn't say exactly that, but you get my point. As for having the discussion at the MOS instead of the MOSNUM, I disagree with that. I pointed out that the change was discussed at the MOSNUM when I made the change in both places. Remember, we don't want to favor one over the other. That is all. —MJCdetroit 01:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine with this, but two weeks ago the MOS consensus was apparently for describing the "overtly Christian associations of BC/AD": it is strange to see such changes of stance in what is supposed to be our "Bible" for Wikipedia editing. Some users are now using the suppression of this phrase to claim that BC/AD is just as neutral as BCE/CE (obviously nonsense), to try to impose BC/AD in such places as Template:History of Japan, History of Nepal, Template:History of China etc... I think it will be necessary at one point to proactively state that BCE/CE can be preferable to BC/AD for non-Christianity-related articles (just as we wouldn't usually think of pushing BCE/CE in Christianity-related ones) through user consensus. Discussions so far on Asia-related pages especially have proved very largely in favour of BCE/CE for these topics (for example: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China, Talk:History of Japan). PHG 02:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The consensus was settled long ago, there has been no reason to change it, we do favor one over the other in some particular contexts, and the meaning of the terms does matter. The whole point of a MOS is that it is stable. DGG (talk) 03:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicted by DGG)...just as we wouldn't usually think of pushing BCE/CE in Christianity-related ones...Have you seen the ridiculous method that is used for the article on Jesus? Shouldn't that be the one article that doesn't use BCE/CE? But I regress...

Thank you. I do agree we should probably not push BCE/CE in a Jesus article, just as we shouldn't push BC/AD in a History of the Americas, History of Nepal, Template:History of Japan articles. Could you specify in which particular contexts "we do favor one over the other"? (any link?). PHG 04:03, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

What about your pushing of BC/AD on History of Japan? Oh, right - you don't think it should be used outside of a "Christian context" or whatever, so that doesn't matter. That rather shows what you really want by getting this term reinserted - an excuse for a style purge wherever you want it. John Smith's 09:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I do believe we should make it explicit that BC/AD is Christianity-associated and that it might not be the best choice for articles that have nothing to do with Christianity. Otherwise people like you will impose forever that BC/AD should be used on History of Japan inspite of the super majority uproar of users in favor of BCE/CE (see Talk Page). By the way, the first major contributor of that article actually used BCE/CE, so technically the return to BCE/CE is also legitimate. PHG 14:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because the statement was there for 5 whole days, doesn't make it right. It shouldn't be there at all. Let the editors decide. —MJCdetroit 03:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I second what MJC says. Tony 12:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

How are such entries monitored on the MOS? Does it mean that the mention in question was introduced in the MOS without any consensus whatsoever? PHG 14:14, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The recent overhaul of MOSNUM introduced many changes, which were by consensus. However, the sentence at issue was disputed when the new version was posted, and was subsequently withdrawn. Tony 01:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This is more of a debate for MOSNUM, but I have always sided with the pro-BCE/CE camp. As a non-Christian, I actually find the BC/AD usage to be directly offensive (though only mildly so). I can see making exceptions for New Testament-related topics (but not New Testament-era topics that don't have anything to do with the Bible; e.g. articles on excavations at Nazareth should use BCE, because they are science, not religion articles.) Just my oft-repeated 2¢. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Alignment and display size of wide images discussed in article

In certain cases images in Wikipedia should be center aligned and displayed at maximum width. This needs to be allowed for and described somewhere in the manual of style. The examples which are pertinent for me are musical images. These cases include articles whose text discusses critically or in depth the content depicted in an image of musical notation which is wider than it is tall. Hyacinth 18:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you have some examples of this? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 11:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Borderline cases for UK or US English

Recently, 86.136.175.11 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) changed the spelling in Christopher Newport, John Smith of Jamestown and John Rolfe from US to UK English. These men were all English, but all are most notable for their roles in the settlement of Jamestown, Virginia; clearly arguments can be made on both sides of this case.

I've started a discussion on what national variety of English these articles should use at Talk:Christopher Newport#US or UK spelling?. Anyone who has an opinion is invited to join and help us work towards a consensus. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

No probs - I've left some comments. John Smith's 19:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The rule is very simple--the predominant spelling should not be changed. If there was a consistent spelling in any of the individual articles, whoever tampered with it is wrong. DGG (talk) 03:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not quite true. Spelling can be changed if there's good reason, even if spelling was consistent. What is a more credible argument is that because this it's not easy to decide whether US/UK English is more appropriate, the consistent spelling should stay. John Smith's 11:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with John; there was no need to change it in the

American topic, American English; the fact that they were technically British in their lifetimes seems irrelevant to me; their role in British history is totally negligible. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Y not?

Is there consensus on whether to use a historical spelling that is technically incorrect? On this page, we've got a debate (which I started...) over using "Grizzlys" (which is technically correct) over "Grizzlies" (which is historical). Comment? Trekphiler 16:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

How is it that "Grizzlys" is said to be technically correct? We don't write "pantys". If they "ys" (including the "s") is part of a proper name, different story (e.g. "Willys" in the military context). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

More trouble at MOSNUM about autoformatting

The folks at MOSNUM talk have uncovered yet another inadequacy in the autoformatting system—this time concerning the rendering of US-formatted dates with the final comma. The original discussion is here; I recommend that interested users go to the end of that rather long discourse to get the gist of it. Here, I've set out a list of problems with the software, which in my experience are unlikely to be fixed soon, even if another concerted push is made at Bugzilla (usually a brick wall).

Some users would be pleased to see the phrase at MOSNUM "Full dates, and days and months, are normally autoformatted, ..." softened to give people a clear option not to autoformat. This would merely put date formatting on the same footing as the way we tolerate British and American (and other) varieties of spelling in WP, as long as they're consistent within an article. Other users feel that autoformatting should be mandatory, despite the disadvantages.

I now actively discourage the use of autoformatting, for all of the reasons outlined at MOSNUM talk. Your comments and feedback there are welcome. Tony 03:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Will MOSNUM itself actively discourage autoformatting? — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd love it to, but people seem strangely attached to this dysfunctional system, and it's hard to gain consensus for what appears to me to be a practical solution: don't make it mandatory, or don't encourage its use, until the multitude of technical issues are resolved. I see one or two FACs going through with unautoformatted dates. Well and good. Tony 02:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Quotations: Preservation of spelling

A curious issue arises when I examine the Chicago Manual of Style and the American Psychological Association's Publication Manual. These two sources disagree over the preservation of typographical errors in quotations. The Chicago manual allows for the correction of "obvious typographic errors" without informing the reader, although writers must note modernizations. The APA manual allows no typograhical corrections, but permits the presence of sic in brackets after the preserved error. Wikipedia's manual of style gets close to addressing this:

Minimal change

Wherever it is reasonable to do so, the style that was used in the original text is preserved. Where there is a good reason not to preserve the original style, the changes are supported by the insertion of an editorial explanation, usually within square brackets (e.g., [for example]).

I am thinking of including spelling alongside the style reference, so that the MOS fragment appears as this:

Minimal change

Wherever it is reasonable to do so, the style and spelling that was used in the original text is preserved. Where there is a good reason not to preserve the original style or spelling, the changes are supported by the insertion of an editorial explanation, usually within square brackets (e.g., [for example]).

Thoughts? —Kanodin 08:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Why on earth would we even consider allowing spelling changes? The MoS should instead clearly advise adding {{sic}} (looks like [sic]) after the typo or archaism. I'd like the MoS text in question to also recommend superscripting of the "[for example]" that it mentions now; we should really have a {{sic}}-like template for this, perhaps {{editorial|for example}}.

Allowing editors to change spellings and just append an editorial note is very, very dangerous, as it would permit US/UK spelling "warriors" to change quotations at whim, and even permit the modernization of quotations from Shakespeare, etc. Gahhh! Furthermore, we have "don't mess with quotations" advice already embedded elsewhere in the MoS, such as forbidding of wikilinking inside quotations. Allowing editors to change-but-annotate spelling in quotations will lead to a direct MoS conflict of advice and rationale.

— SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 17:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that spelling shouldn't be changed in quotations. Wikilinking inside quotations is only forbidden "unless there is a good reason to do so," which isn't a prohibition at all. Unless the link is done to add a particular POV to the quotation, it seems hard to argue it changes the meaning of the quote. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:18, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Carl & SMcCandlish. Quotes should be left as they are. Jɪmp 16:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Directions

The directions and regions section states that composite directions such as south-west may or may not be hyphenated. I am unsure whether an en dash could be used or not – my quandary being whether south-west may infer 'south and west' (together), hence an en dash could be used as per WP:MOSDASH "as a substitute for some uses of and, to or versus for marking a relationship involving independent elements". Could someone please clarify this? Rossenglish 16:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not an en dash, which stands for "to" or is used for ranges and relationships. Hyphenate, or merge into one word, whichever you like, as long as it's consistent within the article (I've heard of US/British preferences here, but I think there's considerable overlap). Tony 01:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Rossenglish 11:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

If you are worried, consider "southwest". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

It is compounded when it refers to a region ("the American Southwest"; you will NEVER see that hyphenated, I assure you!), and hyphenated when it refers to a compass direction, as in "we are headed north-west" (this is probably because more specific directions would be near unreadable otherwise: "eastsoutheast", "northnorthwest".) It is also compounded when referring to some noun that has something to do with a direction, such as a wind or storm ("Boy, that's a really strong northwester!", though such things are often contracted, e.g. "nor'easter", "sou'wester", especially in nautical usage.) References to areas in general are compounded as well ("southeast Bhutan", though -ern is often applied: "southeastern Bhutan"). I don't have the CMoS on hand right this minute, I'm just going by the writing I've absorbed over the last 30 years. My gut feeling is that if it is used adjectivally or to refer to anything other than a compass direction as a noun, it is compounded, unless it is a more specific direction, in which case the hyphenation is necessary for readability ("east-south-east Bhutan", in which case an -ern suffix should be avoided, as it would, I think, grammatically force compounding). I honestly don't think it's a US/UK distinction. But yes, definitely not an en-dash. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't take me as calling you wrong, SMcCandlish, but the likes of "south-southwest" would avoid (some of) the readability problem (though might create others of its own). Of course, this is just hypothetical; I'm certainly not suggesting that such be mentioned on the page. Jɪmp 16:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization of seasons

I have a dissenting opinion on lowercasing the names of seasons when used to refer to time periods. We capitalize months, eras, and other proper nouns for time frames, such as "This happened in July" or "During the Renaissance"; why not season names? While months could be argued as always being capitalized, the latter are usually lowercased when used as adjectives such as "The renaissance concept". I think it would be consistent to capitalize the names of seasons when they are used by themselves to explicitly denote a time period such as "Their situation improved little in Autumn" while using it as an adjective such as in "The winter months" or to refer to the seasonal atmosphere, like "During the summer, oranges are easier to grow" should be kept lowercase. Again, it could just be an opinion, but for the sake of logic, any one want to contribute any thoughts or criticisms? If not on Wiki, it may my influence my own writing, and perhaps others'. All are appreciated, thanks. ~ Atul 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

It's standard English to lowercase seasons, I believe. It is not a convention of this MOS. And by the way, would you mind adding new topics to the bottom of pages? It helps us when discussing, we know what are the newest topics. Thanks! i ^said 21:03, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

MOS clearly says to use lower case. Tony 01:28, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

He knows that; he wants other people's opinion on this convention. 01:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by I (talk • contribs).

Atul/Ephiphanic's proposal makes no sense. The only time seasons are regularly capitalized in written English is when they are personified (usually in the context of poetry or certain styles of fiction). Sounds like he may be an inexperienced or non-native writer of English. --Coolcaesar 21:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that his posting is very clear and uses great grammar, punctuation, and spelling. I see no reason to suppose that he is a non-native speaker.

I also think he raises a good point to compare "This happened in Autumn." to "This happened during the Renaissance". Is the latter appropriate capitalization? If so, then the rule does seem to be inconsistent.

However, if this is the prevailing custom outside of Wikipedia then it is really not a question for this Talk page, it is really a question for the Wikipedia:Reference desk. Johntex\^talk 06:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm uncomfortable in using non-native speakers as a reference point in the first place. The use of lower-case initials for seasons is by convention; there's no particular logic to it, which is fine. Tony 10:43, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Did I miss some declaration of what this person's native language is? I don't see any reason to believe their native language is not English. Your assumption seems prejudicial to me. Johntex\^talk 14:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Lower-casing of seasons (except as noted in certain poetic usages), so we go with that in the MoS. Sure, it's not particularly logical, but usage is usage; you'd need to change a lot of minds at the Oxford English Dictionary, Chicago Manual of Style, etc. :-) Also, "Renaissance" is not generally lower-cased when adjectivized ("The Renaissance concept of human rights"); it is lower-cased when used metaphorically ("That's a really renaissance concept, Jane", "Silcon Valley could see a new economic renaissance by 2012"). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Latin alphabets

The paragraph here on use of diacritics is being quoted as though it were a naming convention. It is not; so clarification is in order. It also seemed useful to clarify, with examples, that this is neither a prohibition of diacritics nor a mandate for them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Will you, then, propose a different wording here? Tony 02:50, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I find the present wording largely acceptable; although it may be stronger than consensus will bear. There is a strong movement for native spellings, and we may have to make allowance for it.

Details: The either in "For terms in common usage, use either anglicized spellings;" seems redundant; the reference to standard English usage is redundant: English has no Academy, and usage is its only standard. Formal English usage may be useful, but is off-topic here; encyclopedic formality without stuffiness needs a guideline of its own. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Numbers question

In a sports article, I wrote this sentence: "The Longhorns finished the season as the only unbeaten team in NCAA Division I-A football, with 13 wins and zero losses overall." I chose to write out the one-digit number and use numerals for the two-digit number. Was this the right decision, or should I choose one way for both numbers?

Also, if I switch them, would one style be preferred over the other? In my experience, writings about sporting events tend to use numerals more than spelled-out words. Thanks in advance for comments. Johntex\^talk 03:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I recon it would be better to sidestep the issue by writing "... and no losses ..." in this case. If the single digit number was non-zero this form of numbers would be in accordance with a respected US style manual. GilesW 06:38, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Giles on avoiding the issue with that wording. 0 stuck in the middle of a clause is a problem. MOS says to spell out all or use digits for all of a group of numbers, normally (I think it's the cats and dogs example). But I have no problem personally with "11 losses and seven wins"; but for scores, both should definitely be numbers, with an en dash (7–3). Tony 11:15, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The numbers 10 to 20 all have one-word names in english, doesn't this make the rule ambigious for them? Roger 19:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Demurrer. General English rules notwithstanding, it is accepted practice and has been since at least the mid 19th c. to use numerals for all sports stats (probably earlier, but the earliest sports stats I've looked at were from around 1860 or 1870). So, I'd probably say "13...and 0...", though I agree that "...and no..." works just fine here. In this particular case I don't find "zero" too off-base, since it really isn't quite reportage of sports stats but more a commentary on sports stats. So, if I'd encountered the "zero" version I would not have edited it to "0". By contrast if I saw "...won 13 to zero" I would definitely correct it to "...won 13 to 0" or more likely "won 13–0". — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:27, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

• Thank you all for your helpful replies. I appreciate your time and thoughtfulness. Johntex\^talk 14:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

"Ellipses" section, "Square brackets" para

The para headed "Square brackets..." does not appear to belong in the Ellipses section. There is a previous section on brackets. Not sure what to suggest.GilesW 06:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's there because square brackets are closely related to the use of ellipses. Tony 14:31, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

How so? At least on first thought, I am agreeing with GilesW here... — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Indicate variety of English?

I know that perhaps it should be obvious to most people, but perhaps an explicit indication of the variety of English used on a page (and the reason) would help to insure that folks follow the correct rules. The guidelines make perfect sense (to me) but that doesn't necessarily mean that I would necessarily know the correct way to apply them - it may not be obvious, for example, that a given author is British and so articles about that person and their works should use British spellings. Dfmclean 20:55, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

One time I cobbled together a note for Talk:Fermat's last theorem. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

It's open to anyone to post an invisible editors' comment at the top, stating the variety. I've done that a few times. Tony 23:36, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

That's an ok solution, but if someone is editing a specific section of an article (say, "Indicate Variety of English?") then they won't see the top. It's too bad there isn't a property that could be set for each page giving the variety. The reason could be given in an editors comment if necessary. In any case, I think that the practice of somehow marking the pages should be encouraged by making it part of the guideline. Dfmclean 13:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

A talk-page template would be a good solution. If you make some, please note them at WP:TEMPLATES. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

That's not a bad idea: can I suggest that it be used only where there's a danger of unreasonable changes, or evidence of them? Some talk pages do become cluttered with templates. The JS Bach article could do with a template: phantom zedders would come along every second day. Tony 05:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The only way I'd be in support of any notion like this is a) it goes on the talk page, and b) it is very, very tiny, like the lock icons that appear top-right on some protected templates, such as {{Resolved}}. It could have a US or UK flag (or some other, for that matter - there's nothing wrong with writing an article in .ca or .au English, after all), using {{Flagicon}}. It should emphatically not be on the article page, as it could mislead readers (not editors) into thinking it is a UK/US version of an article, or written only by or for UK/US people. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

How about ...

File:Flag of the Commonwealth of Nations.svg

This article uses Commonwealth English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Jɪmp 17:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

As a somewhat related question, I've seen a couple instances where a British or Commonwealth usage was decried because it's not the most common word in English. Should we add something about this to National Varieties of English? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:37, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd support such an addition. Jɪmp 17:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

What is this notion of Commonwealth English? India is in the British Commonwealth; so is New Zealand. The term should not be used. Tony 17:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Commonwealth English is pretty useless if you're refering to accent ... but we're not. In terms of written English you'd be hard pressed to tell a Kiwi from an Aussie (until they write something like esky or jandals) nor would either of them write all that differently to a British or Irish person ... even the writing of an Indian would be similar. Canadians tend to share more in common with Americans when it comes to vocabulary but spelling generally conforms to the standards of other Commonwealth countries.

I've just hit [Random article] (actually I hit it a few times until I came to a subject without national ties) and landed on Riverstone Pebble Tiles. The article contains the spellings coloured and aesthetically so it's not US English ... does that automatically mean that it's British English; can I go and raise the Aussie flag on the talk page (we spell like that); should I try hunting User:AndreaC73, the article's creator, down; do we hold our breath until someone gets the chance to write something like "Chuck a couple of slabs of Riverstone Pebble Tiles in your ute and she'll be right, mate." ...?

Jɪmp 00:14, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It's still inaccurate to talk of this mythical C English, whether in written or oral mode. There are dictionaries for each variety, and even differences in grammar. At the same time, I want to strongly discourage the use of flags in any template. This concerns language, not nationality: the types of English spoken within national borders vary; and we don't want to encourage yet more tribalism by linking nationality with variety. Flags make me puke. Perhaps there's a "V" for variety icon that can be used for all. Tony 00:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with the flagging of the type of English, predominantly as I still believe we should be working as far as possible towards using common words (which there are for 9 out of 10 instances). This debate just keeps rolling, and i think the only way out at the end may be to adopt an official dictionary for all article (Oxford springs to mind as it uses many typically 'American' spellings, but overall strives to use the varietal which is most correct in terms of the original root). I think tagging each article is largely pointless, and most editors will not look at the talk page before editing anyway. Owain.davies 06:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'd have to agree, it is largely inaccurate, though more accurate when talking of written rather than spoken modes. However, the problem I point out is still real: not US ≠ UK. You're right, dialect doesn't obey political borders. Perhaps something like "This article uses ~our as in colour and ae as in aesthetic" rather than "This article uses such & such a dialect".

The attempt at adoption of any official dictionary would more likely add more fuel to the fire. Tagging might not be the best solution but I don't believe that it would be pointless: you don't have to have all editors check the talk page first. All that's needed is for some editor to come along from time to time an compare the tag to the text.

Anyhow, if these tags in whatever shape or form they take were ever to become the norm, I doubt that they'd stop spelling wars. I'd only imagine their taking the wars to a new level with spelling soldiers marching around talk pages erecting their flags (or their "V" for variety icons) often without even setting foot in the article only to have insurgents tear them down followed by lengthly debate about what tag should have been put there in the first place. Jɪmp 07:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Punctuation and quotation marks

The Quotation marks section is inconsistent with the Chicago manual of style's recommendation of American English grammar. The Chicago MOS says to put all commas and periods inside the quotation marks and colons and semicolons outside (example: correct: “sentence.” incorrect: “sentence”.). While I realize British English usage requires all commas, periods, and semicolons go on the outside of quotes, this is not true for American English usage. The WP:MOS recommendation fails to mention American English grammar and recommends against proper grammar usage; this results in users changing the punctuation on American related articles to the style recommended on WP:MOS, even though it is inconsistent with proper grammar usage of American English. Does anyone object to re-wording part of this section to explain American English usage, or have any input, comments, or suggestions to how to address this. My main concern is that proper grammar is not being followed, which makes the article seem less encyclopedic. Thanks. —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 01:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

The section seems correct to me. The way to quote described there is how I always learned it. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (quotes and quote marks),[3],[4], [5], and Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_archive_(quotes_and_quote_marks_2). i ^said 01:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

This has been a long-standing reequirement. Many people think that Chicago should get real and use the so-called logical system. It's not a grammatical issue, BTW. Tony 14:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

But we should allow both; not to do so would be Anglo-American warring, which is contrary to policy. When we differ on something, we should say so. The alternative is to mark the entire section disputed. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur with Septentrionalis.--Coolcaesar 03:23, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

As others have pointed out previously on this page (archived, too), it's not about throwing cream buns across the Atlantic; this cuts across the varieties: all English-speakers, for example, use the "non-logical" format at the end of direct quotes, particularly in works of fiction. Many North Americans retain the distinction between punctuation that logically belongs in the underlying sentence, and punctuation that is in the quoted source. It's WP's strong desire not to touch original quotes that won the day here. Tony 05:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Some Americans punctuate logically, but most do not, and are taught not to. To present arguments for both is reasonable; to forbid one is not. The CMS does in fact allow both, but warns against logical punctuation, on the grounds that it requires extraordinary care and some judgment on the part of the proofreader; this may be more care and judgment than Wikipedia may be exprected to supply. As Tony said, this is not a grammatical issue; and insofar as it is an accuracy issue, it is trivial. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a recommendation to use blockquotes in those rare cases where the terminal punctuation on quoted matter could affect the meaning? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:47, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason to change the current rule. Tony 16:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The one on blockquotes? If so, fine - the suggestion was made to meet your objection. The insistence on logical quotation? Others do. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:56, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

And others don't, too. Tony 02:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I find it not only illogical but unaesthetic e.g. to treat commas as part of book titles, thus: "The Wind in the Willows," "Alice in Wonderland," "Tarzan of the Apes," and "The Secret Garden." Lima 08:05, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

• (Outdent) This has been the subject of substantial debate on a number of occasions, the last one only a month or two ago. Please research those debates and give enough time for people here to notice this section and respond before you plunge in unilaterally to change the policy text. Manderson, you never learn, do you. It's not that your expertise is not respected or that we believe you have nothing to offer: it's a matter of complying with the consensus-generating culture on WP. In many cases, you change policy unilaterally and prematurely in a controversial way; in some cases, you introduce sloppy language to the policy text. Please cooperate and collaborate, as you've been asked to do on more than one occasion. I note that this behaviour was at issue in your RfA last ... January, was it? Tony 08:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

And this is emphatically not a UK vs. US English issue. Interior punctuation is already on its way out in the US, and all technical publications in the US use logical quoting. It is called logical quoting for a reason: Interior punctuation adds factual errors, including misquotation, the inclusion of characters that do not belong in the literal string being quoted (very, very serious issue for things like computer code), implying that a statement may be partially quoted when it was not, etc., etc. The punctuation goes on the inside only if it was part of the original. Wikipedia is not a magazine or newspaper, it is a precise publication that cannot afford to use irrational journalistic style preferences that are based on 1700s typesetting needs, just because they happen to still be traditionally preferred by imprecise publications in one country. Undisclaimer: I am an American, so I have no UK bias in this matter whatsoever. This as a trawl through the archives shows that this issue has been hashed over more times that anyone would bother counting, I'm taking the liberty of marking this topic "Resolved". — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

There's no need to be so emphatic. The risk of misquotation is, as far as I can tell, almost completely hypothetical, unless "misquotation" is stretched to the farthest limits of interpretation. As far as I can tell there is no strong argument either way, which is why both continue to exist. — Carl (CBM · talk) 16:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a slippery slope, misquotation. Treat a final comma as part of the quotation and it's easier to start tampering, unnoticed, with other aspects within the quote marks. Same for linking within a quote. Tony 01:04, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't see how anyone can misquote someone because of the use of punctuation. Also, SMcCandlish states "Wikipedia is not a magazine or newspaper, it is a precise publication that cannot afford to use irrational journalistic style preferences that are based on 1700s typesetting needs"; however, popular encyclopedias such as Encarta and Britannica also use this punctuation, so it is not only "journalistic style." Why are American oriented Wikipedia articles not following the same punctuation as American encyclopedias? Wikipedia says to use American English for American oriented articles and I believe we should do that. This guideline fails to address this issue and makes articles seem less encyclopedic by using style guidelines in contrary to the Chicago MOS and other encyclopedias. Some users seem determined not to address this issue, even stating this issues has been "resolved by consensus," when not all parties agree. Just to remind editors, "consensus" is "a neutral point of view which everybody can agree upon." (WP:CON) —Christopher Mann McKay^talk 05:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

While I can't deny that the majority of American publications do use the "illogical" style (and while I think the point about "misquotation" is a bit hyperbolic), I think I'm one of quite a large fraction of Americans who prefer the "logical" style. Almost anyone who is or has been a programmer will prefer this style, I think, and that's a big chunk of American Wikipedians right there. I don't know if we need rigid prescription in the MOS, but I think the rough de facto consensus is for the "logical" style, and I hope it continues to be so. (It's a double-edged sword, though -- the rough de facto consensus also seems to be for the spelling aluminium, which makes my skin crawl.) --Trovatore 07:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Christopher—no, WP doesn't say to use American English; it's American spelling that must be used for US-related articles, and for non-country-related articles that were started in AmEng. Other aspects of AmEng are fine, unless proscribed by MOS. In any case, internal punctuation cuts across the varieties: everyone uses it for direct quotations in fictional prose; and, as pointed out above, many Americans don't favour it elsewhere. WP's decision is largely swayed by its principle of not touching quotations, rather than internecine rivalry. Tony 10:03, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is plainly not resolved; the majority here clearly prefers to permit both, as is our general practice; the late tag, with its disruptive denial that WP:Consensus can change is mistaken. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I see absolutely no consensus to change the existing long-standing policy, which is derived from WP's overarching policy on leavning quoted material untouched. Tony 01:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I see a consensus of everybody but Tony. A majority of this discussion disputes this; so you know what I will have to do. I also see no coherent argument against mentioning that many editors do not use logical punctuation; it is, after all, true. Since this is fundamentally all I want, I'll go as strong as normally for now, and see what happens in three months. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:15, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Not even. The thing is that most of us simply don't bother to respond to this tired old topic any longer. Every 4-8 months someone who just loves the wildly irrational and dying out "American system" rekindles some variant of this thread, and it gets very eye-roll and yawn inducing. The issue was settled long, long ago, and no one objects other than 2-4 people who come and complain about it periodically at WP:MOS. I think that's quite remarkable (and quite remarkably clear that there is absolutely, positively no consensus to change something that basic or we'd be seeing dozens of complainants per week). Making a change like that would have utterly awful results, with people editwarring constantly over what is or isn't "right", more US vs. UK English fights, innumerable instances of user confusion over whether a quoted passage actually did or did not contain the punctuation we say it did, code samples wrecked by editors insisting that punctuation must go inside, etc., etc., etc. Having one rule and sticking to it avoids all of that mess, at no cost other than minor annoyance of some prescriptive grammarians who think that their archaic regional punctuation variant is "correct" despite all the problems it leads to. WP does not have to follow the CMS. While it is pretty good, it has its flaws, and it is hardly the only style guide on the planet, just probably the most long-winded one. As with any prescriptive (i.e. faith and righteous belief) work about something that can really only be understood descriptively (i.e. science), like language, following any style guide blindly will lead one off a cliff eventually. This periodic rancor over wanting "this," instead of "this", for no explicable reason other than "I like it", and in the face of actually rational reasons to absolutely not go there, really gets to be tedious. The funny thing is, the only reason (some but by no means all) Americans use "this," is because it was a typesetting convention from the 1700s, intended to protect "." and "," (the smallest and most fragile pieces of type - " is twice as thick). That's the complete and full extent of the "logic" behind inside puctuation in quotations by default. Logical quotation is called that for very good reasons. PS: The perrenial argument that this is just UK imperialism over US English is nonsense because the convention really only exists in the US in mainstream journalism (which is very traditionalist and conservative in its adoption of language change) and in school rooms run by US-centric prescriptivists. If you turn in a university term paper or thesis, in any dept. other than English or some other hidebound liberal artsy course, with interior quoting you'll get it back with red all over it. The practice has been utterly unacceptable in ever discipline that requires accuracy and precision, for many years now (i.e. all disciplines but liberal artsy stuff like Survey of Modern Irish Literature or Topics in German Philosophers). So, one and all, please stop kicking this tired old dog. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 04:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Converting metrics in scientific articles

I'm seeking consensus at MOSNUM talk for a change in the wording to allow contributors, by consensus only, to use unconverted metrics in scientific articles. Tony 02:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Gender usage

Is "Congresspeople" a preferred term for gender neutrality, or should Congressmen be used except when referring to all-female groups of office holders, when Congresswomen/Congresswoman would be more appropriate?Mbisanz 03:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

"Congresspeople" is a hedgehog word, isn't it. As a proponent of gender-neutral language, I'd go for "Congressional representative". We are referring to members of the House, not the Senate, aren't we? Tony 03:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

IIRC, Tony is British, so he may be unaware that it's totally standard practice in modern American journalism to use "Congresspeople" (actually it is sometimes rendered "Congresspersons", though less frequently) and "Congressperson" when speaking in the generic, "Congressman/men" when the subject is known male, and "Congresswoman/women" when known female. Oh, and "Congresspersons"/"Congresspeople" can refer to only members of the House or sometimes both House and Senate, depending upon the context. It is usually the former. But a statement like "I think all Congresspeople are corrupt jerks" would almost certainly include Senators. Anyway, I can't speak for similar usage of -people/-persons/-person elsewhere than the US, and I disagree strongly with spreading the practice randomly ("policepeople"; use "police" generically, "policeman/woman" specifically). There are other cases where the -person suffix has gained currency ("the invite-only conference was attended by dozens of Fortune 500 chairpersons" [conversely to the above, "chairpeople" is rare]), but they are rather limited in number. PS to Mbisanz: In today's world it would definitely be inappropriate to refer to all of Congress as "Congressmen". — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I can see your point about the need for a gender neutral term. I think that Congressional Representatives or Congresspersons is a better usage than Congresspeople, only because people is such a general term. And of course, when the gender of the group or persons in question is known, then a gender specific title can be used.Mbisanz 17:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It should be (and usually is) "congresspersons" (with the minuscule c, BTW). The plural of "person" is "persons". "People" is a separate word with a similar meaning but extra baggage that we don't want (it has overtones of community, even nationhood).

(But I say "should be" only in the sense that it's better than "congresspeople". Really I prefer "members of congress", which I think is the more usual usage anyway.) --Trovatore 18:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem with 'congresspersons' is that it seems to be the least common of the three options in real life - at least from the Google Test, which gives about 110k hits for that, 140k for 'congresspeople', and 3.5m for 'congressmen'. If we wish to avoid the gender-specific terms, I agree that 'members of congress' seems best (not least because it gets 2.5m Google hits, far more than the other gender-neutral terms). Searching just within .gov, 'members of congress' wins, though 'congressmen' is an easy second, including in contexts where women are clearly included. TSP 18:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with TSP. I don't recall ever having heard or read "Congresspersons", though I have definitely heard "representatives of Congress", "Congressional representatives", and "Congressmen and women". Stanselmdoc 20:24, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not British. Tony 01:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

In a bio article about an individual one, we should use whatever term that person uses as a self-referent.DGG (talk) 08:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Italics

When displaying the actual award citation for military awards, specifically the Medal of Honor or equivalent I believe it is appropriate to italicize the entire citation. Since this isn't specifically identified in the Manual of Style I am requesting Clarification. I have been italicizing the citatons and I was informed that this was inappropriate based on the MOS.--Kumioko 19:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Can you give an example? I've never that I can recall ever seen something like "Sir John Smith, recipient of the Victoria's Cross in 1987...", but maybe that isn't what you mean. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:50, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

For an example of one in italics see Jason Dunham. For an example of one not in italics see Gary Gordon. I think it looks better in italics and I think for the purpose of this the text within the citation should not be wikilinked as it is in Gary's article.--Kumioko 01:48, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Knave!

Are we really going to recommend the spelling naive? — The Storm Surfer 04:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

As opposed to what? If you mean "naïve", let's just not. We (English speakers in general I mean) drop diacritics from words that become fully absorbed into English (thus "role" not "rôle" since some time around I would guess the 1950s). — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I think The Storm Surfer mistakenly thought that naive was an accepted spelling for the word "knave", per the heading on the talk page. However, if an article exists where the word "knave" is misspelled "naive", then it should be changed, because they are two different words. Stanselmdoc 20:29, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

The last time I saw this, it was explicitly opposed to naïf, which we certainly should not use outside a quotation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:21, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I think they were more likely implying that, without the diaeresis, the two words would be homophones. Except that, well, English spelling and pronunciation isn't exactly regular anyway (ghoti, anyone?), so I hardly think one more exception, saying that "naive" is pronounced [nah-eev] rather than [neyv] even without diacritics, will bring the whole thing crumbling down. After all, nobody writes about "coördinates" these days, do they? —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 01:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There probably are a few who do but for the majority of us that extra dot on the i is little more than decoration. Diacritics have no special function in English other than making the word pretty and hinting that it's foreign. Jɪmp 06:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Identities

Regarding this section: "Also note: The term Arab refers to people and things of ethnic Arab origin. The term Arabic refers to the Arabic language or writing system (and related concepts). For example, 'Not all Arab people write or converse in Arabic, but nearly all are familiar with Arabic numerals.'"

There is no ambiguity at all when you pluralize the word "Arab" or another such word such as "European." I think we're adding a needless level of complexity to Wikipedia style by insisting that we must specificy we're talking about people instead of, say, artwork. There is no example of a standard use of "Europeans" or "Arabs" where people are not meant. So I would greatly like to see this guideline dropped. It does make articles read in a more pompous, scholarly fashion, but it doesn't add clarity and encourages people to multiply words for the sake of mood rather than meaning. -- Preston McConkie 18:16, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:PRECON

I'm considering to compose a draft for what could become a new supplementary guideline to MOS. Initially, I thought about something like "writing as a fan", but it's probably even more interesting to have a guideline on all sorts of "writing with a preconception", be it as a fan, or as a [what's the word for "opposite of a fan"?], hence the WP:PRECON moniker. I imagine the guideline to relate to WP:COI, but with strong emphasis on stylistic aspects. But before wasting hours of my life on this, I wanted to make the round and ask for general opinions (ideally in the form of encouragement). —AldeBaer 13:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We don't need another guideline in this area. If you find WP:COI and much more to the point WP:NPOV deficient in some way, work for consensus to improve them instead of writing a new overlapping projectpage, I would say. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 15:45, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Please read my reply to a similar comment at WP:VPP. —AldeBaer 17:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, nevermind. Judging from the input I collected here, community consensus appears to be against such a guideline page. A shame, in my opinion, but so what. —AldeBaer 14:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

'Hanged' and 'hung'

Is there a consensus on the correct use of these (and if so, where?)? My mother tongue is British English, and I was taught that meat is hung and people are hanged. I learned, in recent discussion, that 'hung' for people is not wrong in American English. Fine, but if the article is not about a specifically American subject (it wasn't), and 'hung' is wrong in British English, isn't 'hanged' to be preferred? Or is the rule the default one of "don't change it without good reason"? Philip Trueman 12:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm also a British English speaker from birth, and just want to confirm that your distinction in use between "hanged" and "hung" corresponds to that which I was taught. As for the other matters you raise, I don't have anything to say at the moment.  DDStretch  (talk) 13:10, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The distinction between hanged and hung is also maintained by many American style guides and the American media. See for example [6]. I think it's more an issue that the usage is becoming uncommon enough that the grammar is regularizing itself. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:28, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The only way a person can be "hung" is as a picture. Bodies are hanged. American English user. Mahalo. --Ali'i 18:45, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I've a mix of AmEng and BrEng, but I was taught in the US the same usage that Philip Trueman (and everyone else, it seems) was. CRGreathouse (t | c) 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The OED (hang, v. 3) says that in the context you are referring to, hung is used by some speakers, esp. in the south of England. (Personally (not a native speaker), I think it should be hanged, but if the editor who wrote this originally prefers hung we should probably not change it.) Stefán 20:11, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. One of the unexpected things about English is how the relationship between weak and strong past tenses have been, and still is, in a state of flux. Dived --> dove is a late 20th-century innovation in North America, and there are others I can't think of at the moment, moving in either direction. Tony 22:57, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I remember the word used on Alex Trebek's U.S. quiz show Jeopardy many years ago. Alex said "hanged". "Hanged" is a glaring exception, and I suspect "hung" is on the rise because of the increasing scarcity of hangings and the subsequent unfamiliarity with the verb. —Kanodin 00:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I speak AmE, and I use both hanged and hung, in their respective correct positions. However, despite my vehemently correxting anyone who makes a mistake, I suspect that usage of "hanged" is declining, due probably to its seeming incorrect, as Kanodin pointed out. ¿SFGiДnts! ^{¿Complain! ¿Analyze! ¿Review!} 23:41, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Although I'm a British English speaker, I seem to remember Jessica Fletcher (Angela Lansbury) on Murder, She Wrote correcting a child's grammar by reminding him that "drakes are hung, people are hanged". And although Lansbury is British, the show was an American production. Walton^One 16:51, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Erm, people being killed by strangulation (or a broken neck) at the end of a rope are hanged, clothes are hung. In my experience, when someone says a person is hung, it is coarse idiom for a very specific physical adeptness. Gwen Gale 17:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Standard for the and a preceding acronyms

I don't know if there's a standard on Wiki for the pronouns "a" and "an" that precede acronyms. I've looked and haven't been able to find one. I have always been taught that when the acronym begins with a "vowel-sounded consonant" (such as n, s, r, l, f, m) that when spoken aloud creates a vowel sound first, that the pronoun before it should be "an", so it would be grammatically correct. For example, "NAACP representative" would be written as "an NAACP representative", but "NASA representative" would be written as "a NASA representative", because they are pronounced differently. One sounds like "EN" and the other like "NA".

Is there a WP standard for this? Do other countries do it differently? Like I said, all I know is what I've been taught, and I can't find anything on it on the pages I've looked. Thanks, Stanselmdoc 16:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

What about acronyms of inconsistent pronunciation - SQL or FAQ, for example? --Random832 01:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

• Interesting issue (pleased to hear what others think). NAACP is an initialism (can't be pronounced as a word), whereas NASA is a true acronym (think nym/name). The latter, AFAIK, doesn't take a preceding the; a NASA representative is different, because NASA is now an epithet, qualifying the head, representative (What kind of representative?). NAACP probably does take "the"; but organisations have their own preferences, and usually, but not always, their website shows the way. (Some deictics must even be capitalised, such as The Beatles, apparently, because that was the branding.) Tony 03:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation should be the guide for both acronyms and initialisms, I think. A SQL server; an SEC spokesman; an FAQ; a FEMA representative. Barnabypage 09:35, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Although, as noted, several of those have multiple pronunciations. The official pronunciation of SQL is in fact 'ess queue ell', according to ANSI; whereas FAQ is frequently 'fak'. I expect you could find devotees of 'sek' and 'eff ee em a' if you looked hard enough. TSP 09:53, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Many of these can go either way, and it's an unsatisfactory little nook of the language, second-guessing whether your reader's little silent voice will spell out the letters, pronounce them as a word, or go for the whole name (something in me makes me say "frequently asked questions" when I see FAQ). Tony 10:36, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Perhaps this is a case, then, where trying to establish a standard is futile, and editors should simply go with their preference. After all, while an inappropriate indefinite article might be jarring, it doesn't impede understanding. Barnabypage 10:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't impede understanding, but it sure does put a crick in the neck of a grammar policeman like me hahahaha. I agree with the arguments, but I still don't see why a more common pronunciation shouldn't be given precedence (like "an L.A. Times contributor" as opposed to "a L.A. Times contributor"). I guess I'll just refrain from altering too many articles I deem incorrect. Stanselmdoc 14:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

contractions such as (wo)men as a substitute for "both women and men"

Should this be addressed in the style guidelines, if so where? I've always been inclined to disfavor this kind of writing, but I cannot remember seeing it addressed. Thanks in advance for any comment and feedback. dr.ef.tymac 11:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Um ... you mean, like this? Tony 12:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Not really. I mean something even more general than that. I mean the use of parenthesis to indicate a "compound word" [e.g., (foo)bar ] where the compound word is a substitute for two separate words that would otherwise be indicated using "both X and Y" [e.g., both foobar and bar]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dreftymac (talk • contribs) 16:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

That sort of creative parenthesis use falls under general poor practice. I'm not opposed to including something in the MOS about it, but I don't think it's really necessary. Strad 00:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

O.k., sounds reasonable -- just checking to verify whether it is generally disfavored practice. Thanks for the reply. dr.ef.tymac 03:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

That seems good for articles. On a talkpage, the usage item(s) as shorter than "one or more items" could be OK.Newbyguesses - Talk 01:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Proposal for guidelines on gender-neutral language

I seek consensus for the addition of a new subsection on "Gender-neutral language" to the "Usage" section of MOS. This has now become a typical part of in-house manuals of style, from those of newspapers to book publishers to scholarly journals. It's high time that WP had its own guidelines in this area to suit its particular circumstances.

Please peruse the draft and add your comments here. Tony 16:17, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. I cannot support this draft; some of the examples are already clumsy and imprecise. I would support adding the key sentence: Consider using gender-neutral language where this can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording and without loss of precision.

But some of the language of the draft is inaccurate: The meaning of The Ascent of Man is not males, but human beings; to claim otherwise is a confusion, now all too common. There is no harm in the substitution when it can be done, as often, without harming cadence; but we should not misstate the grounds for it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You just don't get it, do you. Tony 01:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Please reconsider that personal attack, which demonstrates suggests that the proposed page is POV and unacceptable on those grounds. For my part, I prefer to deal with issues than pretend that politically correct language will solve real problems. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Look further home PMAnderson, especially when it comes to personal attacks. You've tried pulling similar stunts at changing guidelines at WIAFA, and at GAC. Furthermore, you tried disrupting one of my FAC's because you didn't like being told the truth. In other words, shut up lecturing others on personal attacks. LuciferMorgan 19:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Excuse my intrusion, but since the proposed policy suggests that "man" meaning human beings is unacceptable usage, then it ought to be substituted except where it is in a quote or title. (probably by humanity or (marginally) mankind. So I do see a failure to comprehend on the part of Pmanderson, although Tony did state that rather crudely. And yes, I support the proposed policy provided that we can avoid constructions that are too clumsy. dramatic 23:12, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

• Please add; long overdue for a Project the size of Wikipedia, it's logical that we should have this, it's helpful to have tips on how to use gender-neutral language, and this is a well-written (as usual for Tony1) summary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• I support it and agree it's long overdue. ←Ben^B4 22:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support, I think the use, especially when it is excessive of catering to both genders with constructs such as -persons disrupts the natural flow of language. This practice adds unneccesary political correctness, which can be thought of as a very light form of censorship or newspeak. However I would like to see the policy consider what to do if an article contains a mixture of the two usages, or whether an article should be edited purely for gender-neutrality. User A1 23:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The "person"-construction is often unnecessary when accurate names are used. A "mailman" is a letter carrier and a "manhole" is a street access hole (certainly not a "person hole"). "Spokesperson" seems to be in wide use, and no longer seems stilted.--Curtis Clark 23:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This is up to individual editors and the generation of consensus around gender-neutral usage in each article in which it's at issue. I'm adding comments from two people below that were posted on the discussion page of the draft. Tony 01:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

"Manhole" is actually a red herring, the "man" part comes from french "main" (or possible a latin root, I forget), and it just means that the cover is hand-operated. Same root as "manual", which is, I would assume, obviously not sexist. And now I'll get back on topic, or something... SamBC(talk) 01:11, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

It looks good to me. Sexist language is a huge problem on Wikipedia, and modern English needs to rely heavily on neutral wording. The sexes are equal in the modern world, so sexist language is as archaic as "ye" and "whilst". — Deckiller 21:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Seems reasonably, as long as no-one starts objecting to words because of folk etymologies, like the oft-heard (off wikipedia, anyway) objection to "manhole". SamBC(talk) 22:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

• I've accepted most, but not all of Hoary's edits to the draft. In particular, I felt that the example of how cumbersome "his or her" can be was unnecessary; and I do wonder about "the impersonal you and one" as a way of avoiding gender-specific pronouns. Can we discuss examples here? Tony 10:44, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, instead of "The player may move his pawn one space forward, or two if it is the first move", say, "You may move your pawn one space &hellp;". First thought that came into my head. I use impersonal you, or more correctly "one", in conversation quite often. "One" is technically in the same gramatical "person" as he/she/it, although the semantic distinction means that it can't be directly substituted in phrases. SamBC(talk) 12:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
    • There will be a clash with this and this in the same section (Usage); what are your thoughts on that? Tony 12:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
      • It would seem that that puts "you" right out, which TBH I was uncomfortable about anyway, but "one" is explicitly allowed in the sense we're talking about (that is, meaning anyone, the purer grammatical meaning of the term). SamBC(talk) 13:19, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm still concerned about one. Can you give an example of how it might be used to avoid the generic male pronoun? "A computer user should consider not turning off his machine." --> "One should consider not turning off one's computer."? Hmmm. Sounds old-fashioned, and in some contexts the slight loss of meaning might be a disadvantage. Tony 13:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, in that example, I'd tend to use the (technically incorrect) signular their, and comparing the two seems to be a case of modern-but-technically-wrong vs. "archaic"-but-technically-right. If people are going to argue about not using one thing because it's wrong, and not using another because it sounds archaic, then it just gets silly. Singular their is generally tolerated, AIUI, and I'm sure that one could be as well. As a completely off-the-top-of-my-head made-up example, consider "on entering the building, one should remove one's hat". I'll probably think of a better one later. The point is that the proposed MOS guideline isn't telling people they must (or even should) use each example, merely that they are acceptable alternatives. SamBC(talk) 14:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

This is why we should not mandate the stylistic choice. If we do, we will get a rash of singular theys "because MOS says so". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

• I support this, although I'm not keen on the singular "they" (people can always avoid this if they think about it). To User A1's question above about editing purely for gender-neutrality - including this in the MOS makes it an FA criteria. BTW - does anyone else find it amusing that the MOS doesn't comply with itself? -- Rick Block (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Perhaps we should reconsider having every sentence of MOS automatically an FA criterion. Much of it is good advice, in general, but with exceptions, sometimes recondite exceptions. (For example, there is a discussion on unit conversion in the Mos on units. We should make a recommendation in general; but the same practice is not suitable for high astrophysics and naval history.) If it weren't, this page would be far less controversial; and far more sensible. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:37, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

On the substance, I much prefer the approach at the Village Pump; editing solely to remove or insert gender-neutral language is disruptive, like other stylistic preferences. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:45, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is this disruptive? It seems no less disruptive to me than cleaning up punctuation, grammar, or formatting. ←Ben^B4 05:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Because, like some points of punctuation and spelling, there is no consensus on what writers should do. As this discussion should make clear, there are strong feelings on both sides; the result, as with AD/CE, will be revert wars. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Tony’s formulation, with the “Please consider …” approach to be essentially a fine one; however, I agree with Septentrionalis’ that such a substantive addition to MOS needs to go to the community at large for consensus. We need to keep in mind that some people consider “gender-neutral” to be “political correctness” and thus POV, regardless of what popular writing style guides propose. For instance, stilted phrases like “his or her” may have found their way into style guides, but have not widely penetrated the common vernacular. In particular, the assertion that “man” must always be deemed to refer to males and not males and females collectively is indeed POV; the context is the point (and WP:AGF guides us to assume the best). I find “one” to be preferable to the impersonal “you” has generally been deprecated in this MOS as too informal. However, a better solution to SamBC’s example would be “The player may move a pawn one space forward, ….” I find the “impersonal” their to be a better natural-language fit. Askari Mark (Talk) 17:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

My comment was addressed to the former phrasing: "Wikipedia recommends", which would a disaster at FAC. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Why? Tony 04:13, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• I can dig it. I support the general notion. If an editor has a sensible objection to a detail, they can bring this up on the talk page. -- Hoary 07:37, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• I support this, but I would like to see changes regarding wording like "both sexes". How about, in the first instance, to a generic person, and otherwise use something like male and female pronouns or something along those lines? I just don't like the idea of a binary being used in gender-neutrality guidelines. Kolindigo 22:55, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language 1: Responses thus far from Tony

• I didn't write the "Please consider ...". It was "Wikipedia recommends ...", which I've now reinstated.
• Askari's feeling that this should be put to the whole community, I think, is redundant: that is exactly what is happening here. The recommendations fit squarely within MOS, and this is where MOS changes are discussed. It's open to anyone to post links to this discussion (as Manderson has done at the Village Pump). I encourage this.
• The proposal is far too mild for some editors: I've purposely framed it as a set of recommendations, not as rules, partly because the methods of avoiding generic expressions all have their own disadvantages and, like many options writers are faced with in producing prose, must be weighed up against each other. Thus, I felt that the recommendation should assist in this respect, perhaps more than in most parts of MOS. The potential pitfalls of each option are explicated in the same bullet point, except for the "otherwise reword" option.
• Accordingly, it is pointed out that the singular they has its detractors. No one is forcing it as an alternative, and Manderson, your point that MOS is endorsing its use by mentioning it as an option has a reverse side: MOS is also providing a reason to object to its use. All things in balance. While in many contexts, the singular they grates with me, and it would be the last option I'd choose; but it was good enough for Shakespeare, Austen and many other greats, and is endorsed by The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. I've seen it in government documents, where I'd have passed over it smoothly had it not become an issue here. See this and this for technical discussions: some in linguistic authority feel that it's not technically wrong.
• Manderson's broader agenda, that MOS should be meek and let people do their own thing, doesn't ride with me. MOS, to me, must balance freedom and cohesion, and does so quite well at the moment. If he takes my comment as a personal attack, I'm sorry, it wasn't intended that way: man used to be understood as including both genders; this is largely not the case now. That's what I meant by "you don't get it": it's about our readers' perceptions, not our own ideological views. It doesn't matter whether the man in chairman has nothing to do with the word man: it is perceived as such by many readers.
• My personal preference is not to mention one as an alternative—well, not until someone presents a good example. It does still seem to be at odds with MOS's Usage section, and my impression is that its use would change the tone of a passage significantly more than the use of the other options.
• Overall, the edits to my proposal have improved it—thank you all. Where I've reverted these edits, I've tried to justify my actions here, and will continue to do so in cases where I don't retain changes made by others.

Tony 04:00, 4 September 2007 (UTC) I thank DGG and Radiant for their comments, but I believe that for the most part they are either unclear or not legitimate objections to the proposal. My responses are interpolated below in green:

• objections to particular examples: man-made and artificial are not synonyms. I dont think there is an exact synonym or alternative for man-made in all contexts; smilarly 'manned' is not necessarily replaceable by 'operated' or "staffed."-- and so one for the otherssimilar uses. "Actress" can be gender neutral--it means someone who portrays female roles.
  • The text does say can sometimes be avoided; are you taking this critical wording into account? It's exactly because these substitutions do not always work that the wording is such. I agree about artificial—it's usually a problem; I'm willing to remove that example. Manned can be perfectly well replaced by operated or staffed in some contexts, so I think it's a good example; some readers object strongly to manned. Your point about actress—this is surely not intended to be a proper objection (do we really have to debate it in terms of drag?).
• other creative alternatives "People must" or "People should" or some similar construction ; Humans or human in special contexts
  • Are you suggesting an additional point here?
• singular they not only should this not be suggested, it should be depreciated. As for as i'm concerned, I'd go further and say its forbidden, but not all will agree.
  • I don't like the singular they, but as I've pointed out above, there are authorities who not only accept it, but argue for it. See the ABC link above (Hoary's and mine). It appears last, and those who object to particular usage on WP are armed with an explicit rider. If it's a deal-breaker, I'll remove it; but I'd like to retain it in the draft for longer to guage further opinion.
• policy as a whole Tony, some of our readers will perceive avoiding gender specific forms as sexist--others may perceive it when it sounds artificial as deferring to the ignorant.This especially applies to compound forms. Congressperson or chairperson to me indicates PC in the worst implications of the term, just a much as herstory. I think it particular it needs to be absolutely stated that disrupting an extensive established article to change forms is wrong at least if it is objected to, and that it is wrong to use terminology not in harmony with the surrounding sections if it looks obtrusive. Further, what sounds right in news stories is not the same as in describing historical events. In writing about WW II, for example, the terminology of the era should be used. DGG (talk) 08:51, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The policy is, frankly, the very mildest you could imagine. It explicitly says that gender-neutral alternatives should be used only "where this can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording and without loss of precision"; what stronger caveat could you want? Anyone who uses gender-neutral language can, by this policy, be asked to justify each usage on this basis. Editors can debate the evils or otherwise of congressperson et al. on talk pages, as well they might now.
  • The section brings WP finally into the 21st century on this count, behind many, many publishing houses, broadcasters and governments—in some cases, including the most rightwing/conservative. I can't determine what your attitude is to the policy as a whole: are you declaring that your attitude is neutral?
• This is as unenforceable as the perennial proposals to "always use British (or American) English" and the AD vs CE debate. I think it's a bad idea to make a prescription for it. >Radiant< 09:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
  • No, it has absolutely nothing to do with "always use British or American English", wherever that bumkum has been put about. The guidelines for which variety should be used have evolved to be, as far as I can see, precise. There may occasionally be borderline cases, and they are dealt with at the talk page by consensus, like everything else. The same is true for AD/CE, which are both allowed; there may be arguments, but so what? I contend that this objection has no validity unless Radiant can provide a logical, cohesive framework for it. These supposed analogies make no sense. Tony 12:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
    • It makes perfect sense: this is unenforceable. Some people think we should use AD rather than CE (or the other way around) but we don't do that. Some people think we should use PC terms for gender, but we don't do that for the same reason. >Radiant< 12:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Why are you talking in terms of forcing (unenforceable)? It is cast in terms of a recommendation. Please address the issues in those terms. Tony 12:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

How sad that guidelines for good writing are so easily disparaged with the "PC" label, and by the same people who wholeheartedly support correcting poor grammar. Poor grammar never discouraged a young lady or girl. This kind of nonchalant disposal of editorial standards accepted as basic the world over is shameful. Can't our standards even aspire to those of a small-town newspaper? ←Ben^B4 12:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, giving something the "PC label" is done to stifle debate, often but not always with intent. It's almost the Godwin's Law of writing style. I have yet to see a clear counterexample.--Curtis Clark 13:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Whatever you want to propose, it should certainly not encourage writing "he or she", which always sounds clumsy. I would prefer an even weaker preference. Using "he" and "his" in a sex neutral way has been standard English usage for centuries. There is hardly any reasion to start replacing this throughout. −Woodstone 13:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Methinks that clumsiness is sometimes in the eye of the beholder. Think that if you want, but using he to stand for all people is now quite unacceptable in all but the fusty halls of gentlemen's clubs and the like. Look around you. The evidence in publishing is overwhelming that gender-neutral language is the norm. It's embarrassing that WP has not even a recommendation, and that a few people here are doing all they can to subvert what is a non-mandatory recommendation, not a confining rule. No one has to use he or she, certainly not where it might sound clumsy or need to be repeated. There are four or five options for avoiding sexist language, and using them skilfully is now expected of modern writers. Tony 13:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• Got any sources for that allegation? You sound precisely like the people who want to push CE or British English as the sole standard. >Radiant< 14:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• I did actually read something mentioning that very recently, can't recall where, but it was linked from a discussion of singular "they"... I'll find it and repost the link in a bit, if no-one else does. I've certainly seen it in guidance from my uni for academic writing. Avoiding gender-neutral "he", that is. SamBC(talk) 14:15, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Could it be this edit by Tony? I would like to believe it wasn't meant seriously... Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Woodstone, clumsiness issue aside, I would point out that "it's been this way for centuries" isn't a good argument for anything - for centuries it was held that dark-skinned people were obviously and inherently inferior, for centuries it was held that women couldn't be academics, and for centuries it was held as common knowledge that jews couldn't be trusted. Centuries end. That said, I'm in two minds as to whether I mind gender-neutral masculine or not — it doesn't bother me personally, but I understand why it's considered objectionable. I personally will react to it badly in some circumstances, and not others. SamBC(talk) 14:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The issue has nothing to do with whether women are considered inferior or not. It just happens to be that the English language uses the word "he" in two different senses. It may mean "a human being" or "a male being". There are many words with several meanings. It is usually not a problem and it is up to the reader to determine which is meant in a specific case. −Woodstone 15:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised to have to debate this in 2007. Not any more is he understood in the first sense, at least not by a significant proportion of English-speakers. Sorry, you'll just have to face up to that change. We're no longer living in the 1950s. That is why most style guides now recommend (some insist) on respecting modern perceptions. Your perceptions don't appear to be modern, that's all. Tony 15:26, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I see that Tony has replaced "Wikipedia recommends". I strongly oppose this; I will dispute any effort to add it to the policy. The MOS is not a means for some editors to browbeat others into their stylistic preferences. For the record, if there is indeed a modern consensus on these usages, reminding editors to consider the matter will be more effective, as well as more civil, in promoting the use of such language. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• I've changed it to "Please consider ...", as Manderson requests; I've removed the point about the singular they, since I can see that it's just too contentious: some will be unhappy at this removal, but I'm keen to gain consensus. Tony 01:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Support Slrubenstein | Talk 13:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language 2: Discussion break

The course of this discussion is actually a good example of why this issue should be placed before the community as a whole with a link from here, rather than vice versa. Those who frequent this page are a tiny and non-representative fraction of the broader Wikipedia community, and a debate on this issue deserves a greater diversity of thought. I’m surprised that some here espouse “gender-neutral” wording as broadly accepted by all but the “fusty” few. Anyone believing that needs to get out more – and travel in broader circles. As someone who is widely read and comfortable in many social circles, I can honestly say that it is the dominant mode only in a small, albeit influential, circle of society – which just happens to include those who write style guides. In actuality, most of society eschews it except in certain formal, public situations. While age-old usage of masculine forms as gender-plural may no longer be held as commendable by some, they do have the advantage of common understanding, depending on the context of their usage. Moreover, recent fashion does not necessarily confer lasting value or even long endurance. “Modern” fads come and go, and I’ve noticed in recent years that even among those I know who espouse gender-neutral formulations, it has been slipping from conversational usage, so it’s possibly a fading form.

Accordingly, I can support Tony’s proposed wording with the “Please consider …” approach, but not the one reading “Wikipedia recommends …”. We few here are not “Wikipedia”, and before we make such a statement, the more diverse population of Wikipedians should have their say. The latter formulation just begs edit wars, with the intimation that Wikipedia advocates one POV over another. We should encourage editors to be aware of how their wordings may offend a small part of the population, and encourage them to take some pains to consider alternatives that are more gender-neutral. Askari Mark (Talk) 17:49, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

While I don't actually agree with most of this reasoning, I'm not going to debate it, because I think your conclusion actually hits the nail on the head. SamBC(talk) 18:34, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

We can certainly “agree to disagree,” Sam, but you’re at risk of succumbing to the “paleoliberal” perspective that social attitudes toward gender roles haven’t changed since the 1950s. The fact is that since they have, along with racial attitudes, and in a major way. I suspect that this factor, along with the artificiality of much “gender-neutral” formulations, is a main reason that its usage has passed its peak. (In fact, it would be an interesting cultural survey that investigated just what percentage of the population actually has embraced it – as well as what percentage disparages it as “political correctness.”) Yes, it remains a staple in academia, the arts, certain political circles, and corporate HR departments that want their lawyers to sleep well at night, but it has never caught on among most segments of the native English-speaking population. Why? Perhaps because for most people it’s no longer really necessary or at least not worth the effort. I expect it will endure in job titles and legalese, but otherwise is going the way of thee and thou – quaint archaisms that 22nd-century “moderns” will shake their heads over. Askari Mark (Talk) 16:12, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that Tony's proposal is a rather shrewd one, and should meet appraisal. Personally, when I read an article which uses an assumption such as "he", then I find it rather offensive. So yeah, Tony gets my support and I think of all whom support gender equality should lend him our backing. LuciferMorgan 20:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• By "shrewd", I think Lucifer is not implying that it's deceptive. It's not. Tony 01:09, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I like this proposal. I don't particularly like the reasoning above that we should not aim for consistency in style because we won't achieve it, or because it would be inflexible. It needn't be inflexible, and whether we achieve it isn't the point; the point is that we agree, because we are reasonable people, that wordings that would seem to create an unnecessary gender discrepancy should be avoided. "Actress" is a very good example of a word that is prevalent in this encyclopedia and shouldn't be. I don't much like the singular "they" either, but I don't think that's really what we're talking about. Chick Bowen 23:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

• As PMA said, "The MOS is not a means for some editors to browbeat others into their stylistic preferences." So far this effort is based on the wild allegation that "other" language is "wildly unacceptable", a claim which people have been unwilling to substantiate so far. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. >Radiant< 08:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
  • "In the minds of students of both sexes, use of the word 'man' evoked, to a statistically significant degree, images of males only -- filtering out recognition of women's participation in ... major areas of life."[7] Is that effect acceptable in any way, shape, or form? I don't think so. I am just astonished that this is even at issue. What exactly is the benefit of sexist language? That it may be more familiar to some people? That's about it, isn't it? That there are people willing to disenfranchise an entire gender for a little familiarity is disgusting, plain and simple. Shame! ←Ben^B4 09:11, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Appeals to emotion really don't help. It's really a straw man - it's not that Wikipedia wants to tolerate sexism; the problem is that while this is a temper-raising issue, there is no agreed-upon solution, and this cannot be mandated for Wikipedia articles. Some people use "he or she" everywhere, other prefer "s/he", some invoke "singular they" or make up terms like "xyr", and yet others think this is not nearly as big a deal as proper grammar. If the real world had a consensual solution for this, we would use it in Wikipedia. But it does not. It is noble to want to change the world, but since an encyclopedia reflects the world, it is not the place to start>Radiant< 09:58, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Peer-reviewed results showing that sexist language alters the perceptions of readers to the disadvantage of women are not an appeal to emotion. That I am appalled by your nonchalance is certainly an emotional reaction, but it's based on the scientific facts. Every single part of the Manual of Style recommends exactly this sort of choice of alternatives. Your use of the word "mandate" is fallacious given the language of the proposal. The world contains a lot of bad grammar and incomplete sentences. Do you contend that we should "reflect" those, too? ←Ben^B4 10:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
        • When you highlight the word “man” in isolation or a polemical construct (e.g., that silly “Well, duh!” study’s “Political Man”), of course it solicits an interpretation of “maleness”; if it didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place. At issue is whether its use should be eschewed even when in a context that has traditionally been taken as generic. What Tony has been striving to achieve, as I understand it (or hope it to be), is to develop a formulation that encourages, but doesn’t force, the greater awareness of and use of gender-neutral language. Forcing the style upon everyone (and insulting those who disagree as neanderthals) – quite obviously – is as divisive and disruptive as banning its use at all (say, as "stilted, 'politically correct'" prose). Askari Mark (Talk) 15:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

A brief analysis of Radiant's strategies in the previous posting:

There are, at a glance, three ploys at play here.

One is to muddy the argument by introducing fanciful notions with the vague undercurrent that his opponents are responsible for them—for example, who is making up "xyr", and why is it relevant to this debate?

Another ploy is to introduce questionable concepts without clear relevance to the issue—just what is "proper grammar", and where does this novel boundary lie? The hidden text is that gender-neutral solutions are somehow not "proper grammar". If you were a politician trying to deceive an ignorant electorate, sure, you'd use these ploys; but they won't work here.

Yet a third strategy is to mix bold unsupported pronouncements with statements that people will readily accept, in the hope that folks won't question the unsupported ones ("the real world [has no] solution for [sexist language]", and "[this proposal is an attempt] to change the world") mixed up with the widely accepted "an encyclopedia reflects the world [and doesn't try to change it]"). A lot of people here have been pointing out that the issue of sexist language does have solutions out there in the world, and that they're widely accepted and implemented. Above Radiant's most recent post, Ben has provided just one weblink to supporting material, of thousands of sources that are staring us in the face. That's why this long overdue proposal has been made.

Now Radiant, I'm tempted to suggest that you work for a politician; but that would be unfair to assume such a thing without further evidence. At the very least, your postings make an interesting study in political/linguistic deception. Tony 10:38, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Another, rather obvious, ploy is to misquote people, for example to remove the word "consensual" from "the real world [has no] solution for [sexist language]". Talking about muddying the argument: the claim that the concept of "proper grammar" is "novel" is astounding. See for example Panini (grammarian). I am surprised that you think such ploys work here. Thehalfone 10:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• • • • BenB4 - do you have sources for that? Because our articles on e.g. Gender-neutral language do not show a consensus about your statement, and state that using GNL remains controversial. >Radiant< 10:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
        • Yes, the study I described above: Schneider, J.W., and Hacker, S.L. (1973) "Sex role imagery and use of the generic 'man' in introductory texts" American Sociologist 8, pp. 12-18. I can't find a direct URL but here is another peer-reviewed study citing and apparently confirming the effect described. Our Gender-neutral language is disputed and cites no peer-reviewed studies. ←Ben^B4 11:36, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) ...using GNL remains controversial. Wha? At the margins perhaps, but the central principle—do not sub masculine pronouns where gender is indeterminate—is completely time of day in formal registers in 2007. The UN adopted gender neutral language 20 years ago (led by Canada and the Scandinavians, bless them).[8] News organizations began adopting the usage in the 1970s. If you can get a hold of this excellent resource you'll find stats on how rapid and complete the conversion was. I can imagine governments lagging somewhat because amending a state constitution can be a cumbersome process. And in certain quarters in the U.S. I can imagine opposition on ideological grounds. But really, all Wiki is doing here is catching up. And this guideline is incredibly mild (I'd make it stronger: 'Please use' rather than 'Please consider using'). And let's save the appeal to tradition—for younger editors I doubt it's of much relevance. Marskell 13:47, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

My only big worry with this is a "freeping creeperism" of sloppy or over-written rules (never helpful). By all means editors should (in my humble opinion) avoid gender specific pronouns when subjects and objects are not gender specific. Quotes should never, ever be changed, nor should the formal titles of specific organizations, or historical titles. Generic professional titles are a bit harder to cope with since some aren't yet in wide use (like actor instead of actress) and can cause distractions which affect readability. I'd say keep any new "policy" down to a couple of sentences in length and let editor consensus do the rest. I do agree with a comment above which hints that this is all rather meaningless for most editors born like, after 1970. Gwen Gale 15:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

This may be somewhat an age related bias. Those over a certain age consider use "gender neutral" language to be anything but neutral, they consider it highly driven by point of view. I am in that age group, and thus consider this proposal to be an attack on WP:NPOV. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, we should lag the general usage of language. There probably are specific examples where a gender neutral word has become the generally used term, but there are plenty more where gender specific terms are still standard. No aspect of Wikipedia's mission, nor of the Foundation's mission generally, is advanced by this proposal.

That age must be greater than 56. I find it astonishing that gender-neutral language is so controversial when there was hardly any ruckus raised over is comprised of. Tony wrote me privately for clarification of whether I support the proposal. Frankly, I don't care. I will continue to write accurate, gender-neutral prose on Wikipedia (although I do sometimes use the generic "she", which would go against the proposal), and I will continue to copyedit the most egregious examples of unsupported gender-specific language (and I will continue to replace "is comprised of" with one or another alternative) whether or not it is in MoS.--Curtis Clark 13:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

The right answer is that adopted for national varieties of English on topics not tied to a specific nation - Wikipedia does not prefer any particular usage. I've seen too much time wasted on silly (or even wrong, as in "fixing" the title of a reference or a word in a quotation) MoS related AWB contributions that could far more usefully have been spent on researching references and improving article content. I would prefer that every editor spent his time on content improving edits than on this silly blather. GRBerry 17:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I would support the addition of Do not be disruptive in removing or adding such language.; this will do something to curb the self-righteous on both sides of the issue. We are likely to disagree on whether specific occasions are disruptive or not, but that's not new; surely we can agree on the principle. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:01, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Possibly, but I find it hard to conceive of a wording that will do it effectively. To Manderson and Gwen, mass changes can be done now, but I don't see them. I really think that a mere recommendation that includes caveats (thereby arming the status quo with reasons to object/revert), will not bring the GNL zealots out onto the streets. Quite likely, it will be a subtle and minor change. Tony 15:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I would agree. This is what I meant by "...can cause distractions which affect readability." Although I'd hope older editors and users could understand that gender non-neutral language is a kind of learned PoV which can and does lead to wholly unintentional fuzzy thinking and outright bias, some will nonetheless be distracted or even emotionally stirred up when they encounter language usages to which they are either not accustomed or simply cannot cope with for whatever reason, which is why I would keep any policy on this very short, much shorter than the proposed draft, caution editors to be unobtrusive about it (no sweeping campaigns to clumsily do a mass "fix" on thousands of core articles please) and let editor consensus have its sway on stuff other than the easy generic nouns and pronouns. Gwen Gale 19:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language 3: More discussion

I entirely support this draft. A gender-neutral proposal is long overdue -- thanks, Tony. I made two minor changes to wording ([9].) Two further comments: first, I'm afraid I don't see the utility of the first bullet point, he, his, she and her to refer to both sexes. I would omit that entirely unless it can be clarified. Second, I support Sambc's singular they addition ([10]). Even this is a bit too anti-they for my taste, but it is at least quite fair. bikeable (talk) 04:30, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

• I oppose this draft. It seems, to me, to be more focused on condemning the English language than proposing a reasonable change in style policy. The language may have sexist origins, but common usage is not the vehicle of sexism, and both editors and readers understand this. Wikipedia should promote a neutral point of view, but the manner of expressing that point of view (within reason) should be consistent with common and familiar usage. Thus, even though some words may be derived from sexist roots, sexually-linked, or otherwise not sex-neutral, they are the manner of expression for most English speakers and are not as such meant to be sexist, and therefore not often interpreted as such. That said, I do support some of its suggestions, such as the consistent use of plural forms instead of singular forms when meaning and clarity are not affected. We, as editors, have a responsibility to see that a topic is conveyed in the most accessible manner. The most accessible manner is that which is most familiar and most recognized. This draft as such proscribes not select portions of the language that can "easily be avoided" but rather the language itself.—Kbolino 05:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Response to Kbolino. I note your partial support, and wish to bring you around to a position of not opposing the gist. Here are my rejoinders:

• • • The text proscribes nothing; it is merely a recommendation.
    • I put it to you that gender-neutral language has become "the most familiar and most recognized" manner in the real world; you appear to be saying that the opposite is true. There is ample evidence of the widespread use of gender-neutral language, all around us, as some contributors have pointed to above. But I'm unsure I agree with your thesis here: the misuse of apostrophes (both omission and commission) is now widespread and more familiar in some registers than their proper use. Do you mean that the misuse of apostrophes is OK?
    • "This draft ... proscribes ... the language itself". Can you explain?
    • As announced in the first sentence, the GNL guideline concerns readers' perceptions rather than writers' ideologies. Whether gender-specific language is "meant" to be sexist (by the writer/speaker) is not the point.
    • "Common usage is not the vehicle of sexism"—I think a lot of people will disagree with the notion that common language has no potential to shape our world view.

I invite you to respond and, if you feel you can, be more supportive in the light of my rejoinders. Tony 06:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

You asked if I could support as revised, and I cannot, because I think it wrong in principle to be prescriptive about this. We should use language appropriate to the subject of the article that is natural in terms of other writing on the topic. For many political or modern cultural topics I would of course say to always use gender neutral language, and even change articles accordingly. Otherwise I think it altogether wrong to go to the trouble of changing existing text. There are much more important things to work on, like accuracy. In the final sentence, you admit the political motivation of shaping a world view. Now, I agree with your world view in this. If you'll look at anything I myself write, I think I automatically and smoothly avoid sexist language in discussions on WP, or in any nontechnical context unless there's no smooth way to do so. That's my style. I don't impose it on others. But I do not think we will convince each other on this. DGG (talk) 07:25, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It is wrong, in principle, to be prescriptive on this. I can support, and have supported, a text of about three sentences: Please consider the use of gender-neutral language where this can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording and without loss of precision. Gender-neutral language is not concerned with editors’ beliefs, but with avoiding language that might be interpreted by some readers as an unnecessary reinforcement of traditional stereotypes. Do not be disruptive in removing or inserting such language.. Including examples is asking for trouble; there is a comment above that complains that the present draft assumes that gender is binary, and it has a point. The real problem with man and wife is not the absence of parallellism, but the assumption that only a man can have a wife, which is ceasing to be true. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't said anything on this page for a while, and I'm supposedly "inactive", but I might briefly drop in a couple of cents here. I have read parts of the discussion (43 kb of talk is a lot to get through), so I beg your forgiveness if I've missed something somewhere.

My concern isn't about whether this is right or wrong. I just want to very, very strongly discourage the use of weak "recommendations but not binding" here. I'll explain why. Everything in this manual of style and all its subpages are "recommendations". Nothing here is compulsory for editors; no editor should be reprimanded for failing to follow it unless that are deliberately acting in contradiction to it. These guidelines, however, are compulsory for articles. Their purpose is to give clear and consistent guidelines for style of writing, to prescribe standards for articles. Therefore, to encourage but not demand defeats its purpose. If we hint at something, but aren't clear that articles are expected to do so, then we may as well not have the guideline at all.

Personally, I'm not too fussed about gender-neutral language, though I think most people would agree that it's still a developing or rapidly evolving concept, with many different ways of going about it and so on. Or perhaps it is possible for us to give a definitive set of guidelines, like an order of preference or something. Frankly, I don't know what's workable or what's right. But in any case, I would be disheartened to see this manual take the "think about it if you want" line. Neonumbers 09:18, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Um ... no. MOS is mandatory for all FAs. Thus, the recommendations in MOS are a functional distinction. Thus, for FAs, MOS is essentially divided into: (1) you must or must not do this, (2) you must do one of the following, and (3) we recommend doing this (including "this is normally done"). For all other articles, MOS "should normally be followed", and exceptions can be made, but would need to be justified on a talk page. This is not my fancy; it springs directly from the text of the style-guide template and the FA criteria.

If you look closely, MOS is full of carefully crafted gradations of must. Looking at random, my eyes fell on these points concerning the wording of article titles (I've bolded the critical bits)

• links are never used, in favor of linking the first occurrence of the item in the section text;
• the wording tends to be short (more than 10 words may defeat the purpose);
• articles (a, an, the) and pronouns (you, they) are typically avoided unless part of a formal name; and
• the wording is, where possible, not identical to that of any other heading or subheading in the article.

The first point is a must. The others allow slight latitude—the last of a different type to the middle two. My point is that it seems quite reasonable for a section of MOS to be expressed in terms of a recommendation (not a must). The Manual is riven with this already, for good purpose. Tony 11:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a note; featured articles are supposed to comply with MoS in its role as a guideline. There is no extra level of compliance required. The manual is only a guideline precisely because we expect exceptions; and these exceptions are as likely to occur in FAs as anywhere else. Christopher Parham (talk) 11:19, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you're right; however, an exception needs to be justified. I'm sure that in some cases, this is successfully done. Tony 13:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

No; the present state of FAC is abusive. Reviewers should remember what some of them have not realized: MOS is a guideline, and should not be employed mechanically. Tony himself uses the regrettable phrasing of MOS breach; the MOS cannot be broken, it did not descend from Sinai. Something which deviates from the text of MOS may well be a case that MOS is not intended to cover; the burden rests on the reviewer, not the article, and simply citing MOS is insufficient. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:49, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

We should all be concerned at the now-obvious push by Manderson to reduce the status of MOS. Tony 00:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony, MOS is, and always has been, a guideline; please read WP:POL. No handful of editors can make it more. It may be possible for them to attempt to do too much with it, and make it into a laughingstock, generally ignored. This would be a loss; I am attempting to avoid that. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:32, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• If this proposal becomes a part of any guideline, I give up on Wikipedia altogether. People who take issue with whether or not language can imply one gender or the other, have WAY bigger problems than just language. It is utterly ridiculous to ask editors to avoid a properly grammatical language that some have become so accustomed to using in intellectual settings (which is what I thought an encyclopedia - even one like WP - was supposed to be). Despite what Tony asserts, the use of the third person singular pronoun "he" as a universal term is still widely used, and more importantly it is still accepted. Authors who choose to use it are not shoved back to the drawing board to remove all instances of it, and neither should the editors here on Wiki be. While it's nice to say this proposal would be only a recommendation to users, I can only view it as a way to foment edit wars and more arguments on talk pages. There are people on both sides here that find language to be offensive. One side finds anything other than GNL offensive, and another side, like me, finds GNL to be nothing but offensive. Wikipedia should NOT take, promote, or "recommend" either side. Stanselmdoc 13:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Still widely used by the odd sexist male. Sure. But if you hadn't noticed, most styleguides and institutions disapprove of sexist language, and many of our readers will naturally find it offensive: that is the point of the guideline. People can edit war about anything, but there are rules about that. An argument that a change to the MOS will cause edit wars could be used against any change, and I believe that most people here won't buy it. If you want to leave WP, your'e welcome; but I hope you don't. Tony 13:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep. It's widely described. Language shifts and blows like the snow and the etymology of words can sometimes have meaningful sway upon our thoughts, which is what writing is all about and I think most editors here know it deep down (so to speak), whatever they may say about this. My only worry is editors with too much time on their hands might tear off on a bulk "fix" of thousands of articles, clumsily chaveling the readability of helpful text and citing WP:MOS while they upset folks. As someone who wontedly tries to wear her grrlishness on her sleeve I'm all for nudging a swatch of writing into something we'd call "gender neutral" but it takes more than hitting the "replace" button in a text editor and meanwhile I'd rather read something fetchingly written with a hint of gender bias (or whatever) either way than a "politically correct" hack any day. Cheers! :) Gwen Gale 13:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Still widely used by the odd sexist male? You're assuming far too much, Tony. First, you believe that GNL represents "non-sexism" in language. In fact, you accuse anyone who disagrees with it of being "sexist", which is ridiculous, when 1. there are a greater number of people who take issue with it than you think (and you shouldn't call them all sexist), and 2. some of us don't believe it is an appropriate response to sexism, nor do we read so much into language that we accuse it of having sexism. Also, you act as if no woman EVER uses non-GNL. In fact, many women, including myself, happen to believe more strongly in the integrity of the English language than in the so-called "non-sexist" language. Anyone mildly intelligent with no bones to pick toward men would understand that words like "mailman" are not purposefully trying to debase women. The feminist movement isn't about language, it's about attitudes. And respect for women doesn't come about from changing language, but from changing attitudes. (In fact, I believe GNL has actually done the opposite - angering many people who previously had no problem with women.) In the meantime, the English language comes off the worse for it. And you completely disregarded my point that Wikipedia shouldn't promote or recommend a GNL when both sides of the issue can find it extremely offensive. This issue should be limited to individual talk pages. Stanselmdoc 14:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I do consider them sexist, although I willing to be persuaded that some of them support it in ignorance of real-world usage and out of some kind of blanket resistance to linguistic change, in which case they're sexist in effect, not intent. Tony 00:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And re-reading Stanselmdoc's posting: wow, so you're saying that gender-neutral language has made some males angry with women? ("who previously had no problem with women"). Let me digest that. Tony 09:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

YES, believe it or not, "gender-neutral" language has made men angry with some women in the feminism movement because of they're disregard for proper English. I'M angry with the feminist movement, and men like you, who seem to think that my feelings need to be protected from the big bad "he" word, like I'm too stupid to understand grammar and how it works and what phrases actually mean as opposed to what I interpret them to mean with my angry-at-men agenda. The real anti-woman movement IS gender-neutral language, because it somehow presupposes that women's feelings will be hurt if you use correct grammar - grammar that's been correct for centuries! Like all of a sudden, because I have the "freedom" to express my feelings, I'm supposed to get angry and interpret motives of authors. Oh yes, CLEARLY everything in the world written with the universal "man" and "he" were meant only for men. Give me a break. And guess what, even if they were, the sentences shouldn't have to change, the interpretation of them does! My God, it's like all women are too unintelligent to understand the real meanings of writings, so we'll protect them by changing all of the words to "reflect" that they're included too. I'm included - I get it. And if I want to write with the universal "man" and "he", I should be allowed to, which is why this whole "recommendation" is ridiculous.

And don't call me, even indirectly, ignorant or sexist. The idea that I have to use "real-world" usage is the ignorant statement - like I'm too dumb to know how to write intelligently, versus how the "real-world" writes. Plus, I don't know where you're coming from, but in my life, I've known far more people who are concerned with writing correctly than with writing to make sure we don't offend anyone. Nor do I, or have I ever stated, that I have a "blanket resistance" to linguistic change. I have no problem with linguistic changes, when they're made for the right reasons and not for agendas. Like I said before, the real reason this suggestion shouldn't be in Wikipedia is because it can be a hot-button issue (hell I'm shaking with anger having to write this), whether you see it or not, Tony, and WP shouldn't promote or make decisions on anything. It would be like WP writing a "recommendation" to change to all instances of the words "freedom fighters" to "terrorists". It's a matter each discussion page should have, not a policy.Stanselmdoc 13:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

We're missing the point here. It doesn't concern your anger, or any other gut or idealogical reaction you may have, or your view of what "proper English" is; nor does it concern mine. It does concern our readers' reactions, no less'. Not all readers object to the generic he, but a sizeable proportion do. A GNL "Please consider using ..." is aimed only at pointing out that there are opportunities to avoid the generic male pronoun without clumsiness or a reduction in precision. It doesn't represent "Wikipedia making decisions", and it certainly doesn't mandate mass retro-conversions. No one will be forced to do anything. What are you worried about? Tony 14:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Stanselmdoc writes: believe it or not, "gender-neutral" language has made men angry with some women in the feminism movement because of they're disregard for proper English. I'm most willing to believe it, if I see convincing evidence for it. My own guess (and it's no more than that) is that pressure for GNL has provided a handy target for some men who are offended by feminism in general; and additionally that certain elements of GNL irritate many people of either sex for stylistic reasons (but then any change to language seems to irritate many people). If the "freedom fighter" versus "terrorist" decision is one for the talk page of every article, fair enough, and for rather obvious reasons that don't have to be belabored here. But it seems to me that the putative sexism of a sentence such as An engineer typically includes a factor of safety in his design to reduce the risk of unexpected failure (adopted but gender-loaded from the inoffensive article Engineering) is satisfactorily discussed in one place. -- Hoary 06:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused - it concerns the readers' reactions, but not our own? That makes no sense. First, I'm a reader of Wikipedia too, so therefore I fall into the category of it concerning me. And I'm not going to write in a language that offends me, and I shouldn't be "guided" to write in a language that offends me, regardless of whether or not my language could "offend" others. I'm not out to offend others by writing the way I do, and if readers don't see that, that is THEIR problem, not mine. I am not going to bend the way I write to what is less correct in order to walk on eggshells around others. And the "putative sexism" in the sentence, "An engineer typically includes a factor of safety in his design to reduce the risk of unexpected failure," is a matter of interpretation. Yes, some see it as sexism. Others understand the intelligence and integrity of the statement, and don't assume that the writer was trying to say that all engineers are men. Granted, the sentence could be rewritten like this: "Engineers typically include a factor of safety in their design to reduce the risk of unexpected failure," which is fine with me. But I'm not going to write: "An engineer typically includes a factor of safety in his or her design to reduce the risk...". Stanselmdoc 12:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

(1) No, it concerns the reactions of a sizeable proportion of readers, not your reactions as a reader. (2) No one is going to force you to write anything. What part of "Please consider using ..." don't you understand? (3) You provide a solution that is presumable acceptable to you (pluralised), so what on earth is eating you? Tony 13:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The whole issue of GNL eats me. I figured you would've deduced that from my anger in my above posts. And I don't recall ever saying I would be "forced" to use it (because I wouldn't do it anyway)- for me, it's actually a matter of principle. I don't think it should be endorsed or guided to or policy or anything at all. What part of the fact that WP shouldn't take sides of this don't you understand? "Gender-neutral language is concerned not with editors’ beliefs, but with avoiding language that might be interpreted by some readers as an unnecessary reinforcement of traditional stereotypes." Okay, this first sentence of your draft already implies, in fact openly states, that non-GNL is "reinforcement of traditional stereotypes" when it's not that at all! And just because someone can interpret it to mean that doesn't give him the right to change something. Making this a WP guideline allows editors to say "I'm offended by this, and I'm going to change it to reflect GNL because this guideline allows me to." But then his edit offends other editors! Either way it's offensive! WP stating "Please consider using..." or "Please avoid these" is tantamount to WP stating it prefers GNL. Stanselmdoc 16:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

You know, just forget it. I can't sit here and argue this discussion anymore. If I'm in the minority, it's not going to do anything but piss me off even more anyway. I think I'm just ready to give up on what I thought was the integrity of Wikipedia. How naive of me. Do whatever you want. Stanselmdoc 16:50, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language 4: Even more discussion

• Oppose the draft - Contrary to assertions made here, gender neutral language is not the norm and is often more cumbersome that what it tries to replace. If gender neutral language was truly the norm, then we would be able to tell that by looking at the widespread usage of gender neutral language on Wikipedia. I do think in some cases gender neutral language can be used with no ill effects. Therefore, I would support a single sentence from the draft, "Please consider the use of gender-neutral language where this can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording and without loss of precision." - Johntex\^talk 14:14, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Gender neutral language is controversial. Full stop. Here's the rub: most people agree that it's a noble end, but there is virtually no agreement on the means of how best to write gender-neutral language. Adding this to the Manual of Style means in practice that we are dictating (not recommending) that all featured article candidates comply. I really think that's premature. The language has not yet evolved to have an accepted standard on this issue. --JayHenry 17:02, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Well, it's not controversial out there, if you hadn't noticed. What part of the word recommendation don't you understand? Tony 00:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I do still think no more than a couple of sentences in the MOS about keeping simple nouns and pronouns neutral would be enough for now, though I do support the pith of what (I believe) Tony is getting at. Gwen Gale 22:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Please understand that I'm not trying to be combative. I'm sorry if my previous statement was unclear. If this is truly a recommendation, I will withhold my objection. In the past, however, I've noticed that Manual of Style recommendations quickly become dictates of the Featured Article process. I believe there is a perhaps subtle, but important, distinction here. I am fine with this as a suggestive recommendation; I am opposed to this as peremptory command. If you assure me you are talking about the former, I do support this proposal. --JayHenry 08:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Jay: Yes, I'd have it much more than a recommendation, but this is a process at arriving at a compromise. MOS is full of gradations, as I've illustrated above WRT the wording of article titles (see bullets above). A "Please consider" is rather on the weak side of MOS statements. It says what it says, and is in marked contrast to wording such as "... is never ...", "en dashes are used for ranges", and "... do not ...". The wording is followed at face value in the FAC and FAR/C rooms. Thus, you may rest easy that this will be treated as a recommendation, not an imperative.

Gwen: in view of the overwhelming majority view approving of the fuller text, this will come down to an assessment of consensus when the time is appropriate. Tony 08:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm only hopin' to throw into the backs of folks' minds a notion that short 'n sweet's more easily swallowed by stirred up volunteer editors who don't like readin' WP:ABCD policy stuff to begin with. I think JayHenry's worry it'll become "law" or whatever for FAs is spot on. Mind, I'd say the hoped-for outcome is more than helpful, it's how this public wiki gets there, how much friction and needless loops of bickering editors are sent through, that I'm thinking of. Cheers to everyone! :) Gwen Gale 14:02, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• Overwhelming majority? Where? In any case, this is not a vote, this is a search for consensus, which may be within reach with a guarded short form. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, perhaps what I should clarify what I meant by "guidelines are compulsory". Like all guidelines, they are treated with common sense and the occasional exception. However, it is not acceptable to deviate from the guideline because I feel like it. Wordings like, "never", "tend to be", "typically avoided" give an indication of how likely an exception is to occur. Something that "tends to be" short probably just means shorter is better, so don't get carried away with extraneous details (not "use more than 10 words if you want, but please don't want"). Links being "never" used probably means that, it's really not nice to look at and there's always a workaround, so use it. Something that "typically" happens is something that is normally best, but not always. "Nevers" and "always" typically reflect a consistency effort; "typicallys" reflect what is easier to read. Elasticity is allowed, not deviation. To reason an exception is to apply the manual too.

To link this back to the topic, the "recommendations" we talk about are ones that are desirable traits, but like all guidelines, not applied as law. The common thread amond the "recommendations" group is that you can't judge their adherence objectively, they're about how you write, not what. They are still firm recommendations that are mandatory for articles. It's "it's better, so follow it", not "follow it, but you don't have to". Neonumbers 13:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Neonumbers, for this clear exegesis. There is one user here who would have the whole of MOS regarded as a flat, bland ignore-it-if-you-please document. In that case, we may as well post a speedy-delete tag right now. Exceptions there may be, although that person has failed to come up with examples when asked for them; exceptions still need to be justified if other users at a talk page request it. What is so hard about that? Tony 14:39, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, exceptions need to be justified if so requested. I guess I just want us to be aware that, in principle, if this proposal is successful, it will mandate gender-neutral language. There is no "maybe" about it, articles will have to follow it unless they can justify otherwise. Keen editors will make edits to fulfil the requirements, but no editor will be allowed to make an edit to the contrary. It would be there to help us write good articles, so for the purposes of its inclusion or exclusion, it is compulsory for articles. That's the approach that has to be taken for it to be successful.

Personally, I'm not a proponent of gender-neutral language, but I don't consider that to be relevant. I guess I just want to be confident that these guidelines can give firm, clear advice that I (being someone that doesn't think about gender-neutral language) can easily understand and follow. Remember it's a lot easier for someone who already has experience with its workability. I think it's fair to say it's still a reasonably controversial issue (I think some style guides do have it, and some don't). I appreciate your efforts, Tony. Neonumbers 01:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, no. There's too much loud opposition to a strong expression of the guideline, I suspect; and in any case, "Please consider" is on the very weak side of the shades of persuasive strength in MOS. No one will be forced to use it, nor to justify not using it if challenged. All they have to do is to "consider" using it. It's that or nothing, I think, but I'm willing to be corrected if my reading of the discussion is faulty. Tony 02:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Using Tony's explanation of "please consider", I think worded that way, perhaps, as "please consider in appropriate cases" such a policy might be appropriate. I think its worth including as an explanation for those cases where editors want to follow it. It would have some merit if only to say that (wo)men is never acceptable English. DGG (talk) 03:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

That's the point I'm trying to make. "Please consider" is in effect a "follow it, but you don't have to" approach, which doesn't help me as an editor understand the expectations of the manual, so the guideline's pretty much useless. The recommendation either has to be firm and clear, or not there at all. Let's forget about "forcing" editors for a moment. This manual does not exist to persuade editors, simply because you cannot expect any editor to be familiar with entire manual. It exists to prescribe standards for articles, and a weak "please consider" will do more harm to that purpose than good. Never mind what I am and aren't "allowed" to do, my following of this manual is because I want this to be a professional work. How would this help me understand the Wikipedian style of writing? It wouldn't. It'd just confuse me.

If this was less controversial, then I would support making the guideline firm and clear, even though my personal views don't coincide with it. Maybe a time will come where there is a strong consensus it's the right thing to do, but looking at the discussion, I don't think it's yet. Neonumbers 11:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It is worth noting that the Manual of Style is treated as hard, exceptionless policy with respect to featured articles. Whether or not that is desirable is not the issue here. The point is that any "soft recommendations" in this page will be forced upon people. And per the many objections in the above sections, editors do not think that GNL is worth forcing upon Wikipedia. >Radiant< 12:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

This is simply incorrect; there is full understanding at WP:FAC that MOS is a guideline, I've never seen an FA-worthy article fail strictly on MOS concerns, and I've seen many article pass with exceptions to MOS. The easiest example to track down is the number of articles that exceed the 50KB readable prose guideline at WP:SIZE. We have many featured articles above 60KB, several at 70KB and even one at 80KB, all passing FAC or FAR as exceptions to the Manual of Style guidelines. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, you assert that they'll be forced on people. What part of "Please consider using ..." don't you understand? Tony 12:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• Actually, you are attempting to have them forced upon people, as evidenced by your edits here, here and here. You're the one who keeps asserting the MOS may not be broken, and you are the one that tries to add your POV on this matter to the MOS here... the intended consequence is very obvious. >Radiant< 13:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Again, any revert that you do is apparently fine, but any that I do is forcing things down people's gullets. The only assertion I've made on that count is that exceptions need to be justified if queried by other editors on the talk page. Don't twist my words. Tony 13:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• WP:KETTLE, WP:NPA. Come back once you're interested in discussing the issues at hand, rather than the people commenting on them. As I recall you were given several personal attack warnings last week by a variety of editors; perhaps it's time that you take the hint. >Radiant< 13:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• Inappropriate; should this be reopened at AN/I for further examination and a reminder that you were also counseled to cool off and review WP:CIVIL and WP:POINT? Please try to help this discussion stay focused on GNL and not personal issues. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • You mean the thread you started where you were solidly trounced by independent editors who agreed with me that your complaints, weasel wording and wikilawyering were spurious, that calling people Nazis really is a bad thing, and that reminding people of civility isn't a threat? Please don't try to spin doctor your way out of that, your modus operandi of calling for sanctions on people who disagree with you isn't helping anyone, least of all yourself. >Radiant< 15:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I haven't got time to waste on this type of discourse, and your kettle and npa things, whatever they are ... well .... Tony 13:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Another gender-neutral proposal

• I agree with the concept of the draft, where in certain cases gender-neutral wording can be substituted without detriment. However, I think providing specific guidelines for employing gender-neutral language is too much, at least at this point in time. Perhaps something simpler, with specific examples of when not to employ gender-neutral wording, would suffice:

In some cases gender-neutral language can be utilized without compromising the linguistic quality of the article. Please consider applying gender-neutral wording if appropriate.
There are specific instances when gender-neutral language should not be applied:

• The titles of works, e.g. A Man on the Moon.
• Direct quotations, e.g. "That's one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind."
• Where all referents are of one gender, e.g. "Apollo 11 was manned by three astronauts."
• When translating text from a language that expresses grammatical gender, such as the French and German languages.

That last point is possibly questionable, and those who are better versed in grammar and translation could decide if that is appropriate.

--Dan East 15:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The last point is a can of worms (for example, when translating a phrase of French referring to a bed, we should keep the literal translation using "he" to refer to the bed - and I hope I remembered the gender of "lit" correctly there...). The rest of it is okay, but leans more heavily than I believe necessary towards the "don't bother" angle. SamBC(talk) 19:57, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding this can of worms, gender in many languages is a property of the word (not the object the word is used to describe) therefore, a good translation will give the translated word the appropriate English gender of the object. Examples (from German): "Das Mädchen holt seine Mutter ab" word for word translation "the girl picks its mother up", better "the girl picks her mother up". "Der Beutel. Gib mir den!" - w-f-w "The bag. Give him to me!" - better "The bag. Give it to me!" What one should do, is try to reflect the style of the original text, this would include reflecting whether the author has tried to use gender neutral language or not. Thehalfone 11:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• A Man on the Moon is a better example for titles than The Descent of Man. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language 5: Jimbo supports

(from WT:JIMBO [11])

Gender-neutral language

User:Tony1 is a professional copy editor who does such great work on featured article candidates that his advice is essentially required reading for FAC nominators. Tony has put together a proposal for adding gender-neutral language to the Manual of Style. His proposal is very mild, it does not require anything of editors, stating only, "Please consider the use of gender-neutral language where this can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording and without loss of precision."

There are very good reasons for using gender-neutral language beyond the fact that the vast majority of newspapers, newswires, and non-fiction publishers already make it their practice. Using the word "man" to refer to a person of either gender evokes images of males only in the minds of both sexes, "filtering out recognition of women's participation in ... major areas of life." (Schneider, J.W., and Hacker, S.L. (1973) "Sex role imagery and use of the generic 'man' in introductory texts" American Sociologist 8, pp. 12-18; a study confirmed e.g. here)

This issue is being discussed at WT:MOS#Proposal for guidelines on gender-neutral language. Sadly, it looks like there will be no consensus for inclusion or excluson of Tony's recommendations. This seems to me like the kind of issue where it would be appropriate for you to step in. If you disagree, I apologize, but I hope you agree and will ask that the recommendations be included in the Manual of Style. Thank you. ←Ben^B4 07:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I support the sentence you have outlined above. I generally keep my own writing completely gender neutral, though I fail on rare occasions. I think the best approach to gender neutrality is a mild and evolutionary approach rather than awkward new constructions, and I also think that the awkward constructions are not necessary. Of course my writing may give hives to people who can't tolerate the singular "they".  :-) --Jimbo Wales 21:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I also concur with that single sentence, and invite those who disagree with it to outline their objections here. This edit contained two other qualifications which drew some support and no oppostion; I still think they would be useful. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Are you objecting to including the examples and suggestions included in Tony's proposal? ←Ben^B4 17:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I am principally observing that others do; although I think they have some good points.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It's become clear that attempting to deal with specifics is going to go nowhere, so the short version is the best way forward; the qualifications are fine. I would like to add "In particular, avoid using masculine pronouns where gender is indeterminate" but I suspect this will be too much for people. Marskell 16:36, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Making any direct demand is going to be too much for people. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• And a ban on indeterminate he does not appeal to me. All of the methods of supplying the lack of a truly generic third-person singular promoun have disadvantages; the choice between them should be up to editorial discretion. One of the landmarks of those broad sunlit uplands from which sexism is as perverse as anti-Semitism will be that indeterminate he and indeterminate she will have the same status; my crystal ball does not tell me whether both will be obsolete or they will both be used alternando. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I do not like the current wording, as recently added to the MOS. It is clumsy and inaccurate. For example, "The use of gender-neutral language should not assert editors’ beliefs" which literally means "if you personally believe in gender-neutral language, then you should not use gender-neutral language". Obviously an editor would believe in gender-neutral language for them to use it in the first place. I have a belief that words should be spelled correctly in articles, thus I am asserting my beliefs whenever I correct misspellings. Furthermore, I feel that the situations in which gender-neutral language is not appropriate should to be specified in the MOS. Has anyone looked at my proposal a few paragraphs above? --Dan East 19:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Clearly there is an ambiguity; I do not read "does not assert editors' beliefs" as equal to "asserts things editors do not believe"; but Dan East does. I deny that assert means "act in accordance with". Rewording is welcome. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see why any reference to the beliefs of the editor is necessary at all. I can see only two reasons for inclusion:

• To discourage individuals with an agenda (feminists, etc) from wielding this guideline as a weapon in their quest to propagate their beliefs.
• As a disclaimer, so even though an editor may be sexist, they can use neutral wording because "it is the right thing to do within WP" without asserting that as their belief.

Either way, what is the point? If this sort of silliness is to be included, then it is far more applicable to other areas of the MOS. What about capitalizing the names of deities? Why doesn't it require some sort of belief disclaimer, so I can, with a clear conscience, capitalize the name of a deity I do not believe in? I removed the belief wording completely, but Marskell reverted back to his original version (without participating in the discussion of the issues I'm raising). --Dan East 22:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Marskell's version is my adaption of Tony's proposal. Both of Dan's reasons for inclusion seem sound to me, although the second one begs the question of whether opposition to GNL is inherently sexist. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't endorse either of the two reasons for inclusion as legitimate or necessary. In fact, I don't think either (or both together) justifies the wording. The point I'm trying to make is that these concerns are applicable to practically everything in the MOS. The first point is covered under NPOV in general. The second by the Being Bold mantra. I just don't see why gender neutrality requires the explicit, redundant inclusion of statements regarding the beliefs (or mood, or whim, or agenda) of the editor. An edit should be judged independently of the editor that made it (or at least it should be). --Dan East 22:48, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• It's not very good wording. It basically says "use GNL" wrapped in enough weasel clauses so as to placate the people who disagree with the concept (of which there are several, on this talk page above). It is easily read as "use GNL, since this always can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording, and if you remove it you're being disruptive". >Radiant< 08:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• That's a fairly creative reading, as far as I can tell. It says to add it if it's reasonable, I'm not sure how it implies that it's always reasonable, and it implies that adding or removing it can be disrupting, and if it would be, don't do it. SamBC(talk) 09:07, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The power of language

(Yes, why not name the section break something meaningful?) I support having a section on gender-neutral language, certainly, and congratulate Tony on keeping his temper so well (on the whole) through the spirals of discussion here. The argument that language is a superficial wrapping of thought, so that it doesn't matter if "he" is used for the general case (which is merely "grammatically correct" (?)) won't fly with linguists or philosophers, of course. And the power of language over thought and over social processes is illustrated on this page itself, by the emotional appeals above against gender-neutral language. Why would a proposal to even consider using gender-neutral phrasing matter so much as to have people shaking with anger and waving the "PC" banner (classic substitute for reasoning), if gender in language didn't really matter? It does. That's why we need language that doesn't favor maleness. Or the very very least, as the modest proposal of the moment puts it, we need to please consider moving slightly closer to not favouring maleness quite so much. Bishonen | talk 09:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC).

• Wow, the section got removed all over again already. I've reinserted a version without the weaselly sentence in the middle. No "some people", please. Short is beautiful. Bishonen | talk 09:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC).

Support: both the edit and the reasoning. It is a modest proposal; incredibly modest. In three months when people realize the sky hasn't fallen, we can come back and decide whether to fill it out slightly. That the emotional reaction of opposers actually underscores the relevance of the issue is observant—I believe that's why the term "reactionary" was coined. Marskell 10:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, Bishonen, language is powerful. That's why I want to protect its integrity. Do not imply that my reactions aren't tied to reason - it's a completely different frame of thought than yours, but it's still reason. Your thought process about GNL = GNL is good because it prevents maleness from being favored. My thought process about GNL = GNL is bad because maleness isn't favored to begin with, so there is no need for an unnecessary "language correction". Tony's thought process about GNL = non-GNL is sexist. My thought process on GNL = GNL is a hypercorrection to language which should be avoided because people mistakenly read motives into writings. And I find your claim that linguists and philosophers wouldn't support the universal "he" obvious. Of course there are some that don't support it. Just like there are some who DO support it. Hence, my POINT from the beginning.

I also feel the need to defend my emotions. You chose to use my "emotional reaction" to GNL as a reason to endorse GNL. (And perhaps, juuust perhaps, I was getting mad because of comments like yours and Tony's, which ignore my point and immediately delve into me "waving the PC banner". In fact, Tony's very first reply to someone who happened to disagree with his proposal was "You just don't get it, do you." (a personal attack, if you ask me) Also, Tony's first response to me was "Still widely used by the odd sexist male" - so I'm a sexist male now? 1.a personal attack and 2.I'm not sexist NOR a male) Someone has an emotional reaction and therefore his argument has no reason and no point? Sure, someone has an emotional reaction against the War in Iraq, clearly that underscores how important it is to keep the war going. Please consider re-reading what my first response said: "Despite what Tony asserts, the use of the third person singular pronoun "he" as a universal term is still widely used, and more importantly it is still accepted. Authors who choose to use it are not shoved back to the drawing board to remove all instances of it, and neither should the editors here on Wiki be. While it's nice to say this proposal would be only a recommendation to users, I can only view it as a way to foment edit wars and more arguments on talk pages. There are people on both sides here that find language to be offensive. One side finds anything other than GNL offensive, and another side, like me, finds GNL to be nothing but offensive. Wikipedia should NOT take, promote, or "recommend" either side." My point was that WP should not encourage something that can cause problems. I have no idea why certain editors can't get my point through their heads. But like I said above, I give up on this whole issue. I keep forgetting that Wikipedia has very little integrity, hence I get into arguments like this. The only reason I'm responding here is because I felt the need to defend my point and my emotions. Stanselmdoc 12:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• First, this needs to warn people against introducting grammatical problems (as with singular they) and neologisms (as with spivaks). Second, we do need to address the issue of people using the MOS as hard exceptionless policy, otherwise this is creating needless conflict. >Radiant< 10:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Your first point is fraught with problems - a big one being there is no consensus to either encourage or forbid singular "they", and no-one has even suggested spivaks in this debate - they've been brought up by you every time I've seen them in this discussion.
    • I'm simply looking at ways the wording can be interpreted. Proponents of singular they will read this as endorsing singular they; if that isn't the purpose, it should be reworded. >Radiant< 10:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Your second point doesn't actually bind specifically to this discussion, and should be a seperate discussion - it's not as if it only affects/is affected by GNL. SamBC(talk) 10:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    • The reason I'm bringing that up is because the main proponents of GNL are precisely the people who wish the MOS to be hard policy. It should be an unrelated matter, but unfortunately it isn't. >Radiant< 10:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
      • No, they're not necessarily the same people. Take me: yesterday I posted in support of PMAnderson about treating WP:MOS as the guideline it is, and of his edit of the FAC criteria to that effect.[12] Yet today I just reinserted the GNL recommendation here on MOS.[13]. The two aren't connected, to my mind. Bishonen | talk 12:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC).

I think, in her post here, that Radiant is referring to me. I wish that people would keep to the substance of the project rather than shifting discourse onto a political, personal level. Just what she means by "hard policy" is difficult to know. This room is full of users who probably just want a MOS that adds cohesion to the project (beyond what a google search will yield), and that users feel they should follow unless there's a good reason not to; and that where it's not followed, it's reasonable to expect a justification when it comes up on a talk page. Is that hard policy? Who knows? But I don't believe it's worth having a MOS unless it has such a role.

Bishonen, as usual, has produced an elegant version that is pared back to the essential meanings. I like it. Thank you! Tony 11:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of someone whose main contribution here is attacking the people who do not agree with him, and sucking up to those who do. I suspect that a meaningful consensus is not possible as long as this unfortunate badgering behavior from just a handful of users continues. You don't make guidelines by attacking people. >Radiant< 13:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Radiant, you've been around a long time, as have I. I think I was the first to welcome you back a year ago—digging—yep, I was.[14] I've always been impressed by your style. The wide range, the way you summarize things, the authority that comes from your smarts, that kind of thing. And you choose to appear as an ordinary fomentor of strife here? A stirrer-up, a thrower of spitballs. Just another quarrelsome motherfucker. Shit. I'm depressed. Bishonen | talk 15:43, 11 September 2007 (UTC).

Anyone's belief as to the bindingness of MoS is irrelevant in this discussion. Please discuss the contribution, not the contributor. As to attacking, Radiant, I think a lot of people have been incivil during this discussion, I expect I have, and I know that you have, so can we all just calm down? Tony, that goes for you too. SamBC(talk) 13:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

No, the predictable practical effects of MOS are most relevant; indeed, they are the only reason to have MOS at all. As for me, if anybody ever says "MOS breach, use gender-neutral language" at FAC, and [the objection] is not immediately smacked down, I will conclude that the wording is fatally ambiguous, and amend or dispute it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• I'd like a halt to the use of violent imagery here, such as that a user should be "immediately smacked down", and accusations that some people are "beating others over the brow" with MOS, which have been levelled more than once. Tony 15:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, I'd like a halt to abusive edit summaries, but I'm not likely to get that either. English is a metaphorical language, and these metaphors do, or should, convey meaning (what is smacked down should be the objection, not the objector, however; I'll fix that). I do not believe in sympathetic magic, and I object to the practice of browbeating, which is all too common, not the word. Now, does Tony have anything to say on the substance? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    • I seem to recall that, a little while ago, someone mentioned that Tony is involved in copyediting in real life. I would like to ask him if this proposal is based largely (or at least significantly) on experience with the "real world" style guides he's used. If this is a common feature of style guides for any sort of comparable work, then that's a good argument in itself for the inclusion of a mild encouragement of GNL, at least. SamBC(talk) 17:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm closely acquainted with only the styleguides I have to use, many of which have statements of varying strength concerning the need to avoid overtly gender-specific language. My impression, more broadly, is that the generic male pronoun is assiduously avoided in text designed to sell products or services (with the possible exception of a few, highly male-oriented products—unsure), and in (both right- and left-wingish) government documents, political promotions and advertising, where it is vital to be inclusive of voters of both genders and not to irritate the sizeable proportion of readers who would be irritated—whether consciously or unconsciously—by the construction. Inviting WPs to maintain an inclusive tenor in their language is behind the move here. As someone else pointed out, it's no big deal and should have been done a long time ago. Tony 01:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
        • We are an encyclopedia. We do not exist to sell products or services; we are not a government or political document; and we are not under the constraints of an advertising agency. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

No, you completely missed the point I was making, which is that where writers are most obviously aware of the need to avoid offending a proportion of their readership by using gender-specific language, they tend to avoid it. Tony 09:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• Aside from the blatant appeal to authority here, you have established quite well that you are entirely incapable of avoiding offending people. Making Wikipedia follow your example seems like a bad idea. >Radiant< 14:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• • • • If memory serves (it doesn't always), both Tony and Marskell addressed that at User talk:Tony1/Gender-neutral language (draft). If we enact this, Wiki will be playing catch up with standard practice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
        • I pointed you to the wrong page; that discussion was actually on this page, here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
• I wonder how many people have, like me, been following this entire discussion but have been reluctant to jump in for fear of getting caught up in the heatedness. FWIW, I would have preferred Tony's longer version, essentially for the reasons that BenB4 and Marskell have expressed so well already (and Jimbo—let's not forget his opinion on this one!) ... But I am also very happy with Bishonen's more concise version. To put it another way: Support. --Paul Erik 17:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Exceptions to GNL

Can we reach an agreement on exceptions to the application of GNL? These are objective and straightforward, and apply universally. I would think that both proponents and opponents of GNL would agree to at least the first two.

There are specific instances when gender-neutral language should not be applied:

• The titles of works, e.g. A Man on the Moon.
• Direct quotations, e.g. "That's one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind."
• Where all referents are of one gender, e.g. "Apollo 11 was manned by three astronauts."

--Dan East 11:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• If the word "manned" can be considered contrary to GNL, what about such words as "actor"? Or even "history"? >Radiant< 13:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, "actor" is a point of contention, but is generally understood to apply to anyone who acts regardless of gender of the thesp or the role; actress traditionally actually refers to the gender of the role. "History" is a straw man, as the claim that it comes from "his" "story" is actually a folk etymology. It actually comes from ancient greek histor, one who knows or sees, was imported wholesale by latin, and thence to middle english to modern english.[15] SamBC(talk) 13:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    • The claim about "actress" is a-historic, as any history of Restoration drama would tell you; I have no idea whether it has now come to be true. The line between "actor" and "actress", when it came into existence, was player, not part: Margaret Hughes was an actress; Willie Hughes (if he existed) was not.
    • Many of the objections by "some readers" are as devoid of etymological support as "history" and "manhole". If we are to avoid offending the weaker brethren, we will have to consider the argument that the present form of the word has patriarchal effect. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
• I would disagree with the instance 'Where all referents are of one gender, e.g. "Apollo 11 was manned by three astronauts."' as this is forcing non-gender neutrality where it does not belong - 'manned' is a gender neutral term, and using it purely and solely in instances where operators/staff/persons are male is an incorrect usage. In addition, and on a separate point, some people value gender distinctions - e.g. "I'm not a pilot, I'm an aviatrix!". Forcing so-called gender neutral language into use, however gently, is actually forcing a particular viewpoint on how language should be used onto people - a viewpoint that is commonly associated with (radical) feminism, but obviously adopted by other groups. Just as all women are not feminists, and all men are not misogynists or chauvinists, not all people agree that 'gender neutral language' is a good thing. The Manual of Style should give guidance about choosing between equally valid options and avoiding 'mechanical' language errors in areas such spelling and grammar. I do not believe the Manual of Style should be adopting political positions, no matter how worthy the cause seems to some people. WLD^talk|edits 15:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I recognize both your points. A better example for groups is required. Regarding the second portion, which is addressing GNL in the MOS in general, I have a comment. My personal interpretation as to why the MOS exists in the first place is this: WP is an inefficient consumer of volunteer resources, wasting vast amounts of time in reversion, decision making, and the overwriting or discarding of contributions. The MOS provides a centralized place where the decisions required to maintain quality (which includes many things like formatting consistency, grammar, NPOV) can be made without so much redundancy. If it weren't for the MOS then discussion, debate and voting would have to take place over and over within individual articles. The issue of GNL is being and will continue to be addressed within WP one way or the other. Personally, I want it taken care of here so the MOS can address it properly, whatever the outcome, to help make WP a slightly better steward of the massive volunteer resources it enjoys. So whether or not the issue of GNL is politicized, we need to debate and decide on it here so the MOS can address it. One further point is that your examples are of a personal nature - a female aviator may refer to herself as she chooses. However WP is not that individual's private mouthpiece. --Dan East 15:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Thank-you for your reply. While I appreciate the point that it is more efficient to make a decision in a single central place like the MoS, this is an instance where I think it is necessary not to do so. I think the quotation is "When is is not necessary to make a decision, it is necessary not to make a decision". In my opinion 'Gender Neutral Language' is politicised, whether we like it or not, and taking a political stand is not a role for the MoS. I think the best we can hope for is to adopt a Neutral Point Of View and not adopt one side of the debate over the other. The MoS should resolutely not take any position at all on GNL - it should be supremely indifferent.WLD^talk|edits 16:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

What we are now discussing

Please consider the use of gender-neutral language where this can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording and without loss of precision. Gender-neutral language should not be used to assert a point of view, but to avoid language that some readers may interpret as unnecessary reinforcement of traditional stereotypes. Do not be disruptive in removing or inserting such language.

Bishonen removed the second sentence in restoring this the last time. It's Tony's, not mine; I think it usefully limits and justifies things, but I don't insist on it.

Would Radiant's objections be met by some form of "This is a suggestion, not a FAC criterion"? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that's good, for now at least (we can see if the world ends). Perhaps replacing the beginning with something like "suggests but does not require"? SamBC(talk) 17:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we just copy the first three paragraphs of the MOS and paste it into the GNL section? If redundancy is required then we should at least be thorough. The clauses about asserting POV, being disruptive, and FAC criteria are totally redundant. The editors that would voluntarily adhere to such guidelines would likely be aware of them already. --Dan East 18:08, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I support this, but I have a question about the examples and guidance in Tony's lengthier proposal. As far as I can tell there are only objections to two of them ("man-made" and "manned") and surely noncontroversial examples can replace those. Are there any objections in principle to provide detailed advice and examples for those who may not know how to write with GNL very well? ←Ben^B4 19:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Given the objections to the specifics, it might be worth starting with an essay for that, and linking it. Then it really just has to be "not too bad" for people to not object to the linkage, as the link doesn't entirely bestow authority on the essay. SamBC(talk) 20:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have moved Tony's proposal to Wikipedia:Gender-neutral language so that it can be worked on there. ←Ben^B4 03:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I would arguee about several of them, and you will find a comment by someone else on Tony's proposal being binary somewhere above, which would affect man and wife. In short, I think any list of specifics will make the proposal more controversial. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:27, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Why do we need to specifically reference FAC here? Marskell 10:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Because this started out as a way to force it upon featured articles. But of course it applies to the page as a whole. >Radiant< 14:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the history before it was proposed. But I atrongly object to any effort to make GNL a FA criterion; one reason I supported this version was that I thought the language could not be used to make one, but I see that both Marskell and Radiant disagree. Therefore, I propose the following expansion of the last sentence: Stylistic choices should be changed by consensus; we deprecate disruption in removing or inserting gender-neutral language and any effort to treat its presence or absence as a featured article criterion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Deprecate is a very poor verb for this. It conveys that the object is now outmoded or obsolete; "disruption" is not something that was ever condoned, so it is not being deprecated. I'm changing it to simply "discouraged". --Dan East 02:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and extended the text to explicitly define GNL as "a purely stylistic preference". Perhaps that will alleviate some concerns on both sides. Since the clause was extended to require consensus, does that alleviate FAC concerns since the article's GNL (or lack of) is the result of discussion specific to that article? --Dan East 03:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait a second, are there any other stylistic criterion which are exempted for FACs? I don't think so. There is no consensus here to treat this any differently. If someone objects to a FAC because it has gender-specific language, that's the perfect opportunity to correct it. And people object to gender-specific language in FACs as it is now -- this is creating a specific exemption which did not exist before when FAC reviewers chose to raise GNL issues on their own. The insertion of this new loophole was not discussed and I am reverting it. ←Ben^B4 02:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the following, with the addition of "automatic": Thus it should not be construed as an automatic criterion for featured article candidacy. --Dan East 03:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No part of WP:WIAFA is automatic; promotion is all based on consensus, ad there are many examples of articles being promoted even when guidelines aren't upheld. The entire issue is a red herring. There need be no mention of FAC in GNL. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Then you have no ground to object to the present purely negative text. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I would be content with "This suggestion does not authorize..." If editors oppose on this ground on their own say-so, it should be treated as their reasoning deserves. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• I think it is problematic that people object to the specifics, because that implies that people disagree on the specifics. The problem with this wording is that it is vague. It does not explain what it means by GNL, and I'm not really sure what is meant by "asserting a point of view [with GNL]". The point is that every vaguely-worded guideline on Wikipedia will be interpreted differently by some people than what the author intended. >Radiant< 14:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

It would be helpful if Radiant would propose a text, or an argument that no text is safe. It would also be helpful if Marskell would attempt to discuss this at all, and in a calm tone. I am unconvinced by the edit summary good god, there certainly IS consensus. there's one person shouting and two dozen who don't have a problem - it seems self-refuting. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:26, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This business of excluding FA criteria is silliness; people requested gender neutral language in FACs before this proposal, and will continue to do so after this proposal. Creating an exception in MOS is awkward, and won't affect practice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not intended to prevent people from discussing it; if they can get consensus, fine. It is intended, merely and quite simply, to prevent people from citing MOS in demanding GNL; while MOS said nothing about it, that form of disruption was clearly non-actionable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm getting the impression you don't understand WP:FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk)\

Thank you for the support. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• I edit conflicted with Ben's addition of examples. I did not stop to include them in solving the edit conflict; but it is probably better to let them be worked on in the essay before inclusion here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not consistent. The first sentence ask people to "consider" using gender neutral terms, whilst the second implicitly states that: Gender-neutral language should be used to avoid language that some readers may interpret as unnecessary reinforcement of traditional stereotypes. Thehalfone 11:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is gender-neutrality not mandatory?

I'm just stumbling into this. I was going to change "Please consider using" to "Use" as a matter of helpful wikignoming, and was astonished to find here that the English Wikipedia is not officially gender-neutral, doubly so that people are actually debating the point in this day and age. We're trying to be a serious reference work here, and every other one I can think of is resolutely gender-neutral. Encountering masculine (or worse, feminine to show you're open minded) in nonfiction prose is somewhere between quaint and cringe-worthy embarrassing. Using the indefinite "they" only shows you're being informal or haven't figured out how to do it right. I don't agree that this is political, or hard to enforce, or anything else. Nearly every reputable encyclopedia, newspaper, textbook, journal, etc., has a gender-neutral policy.

We're supposed to be out in front of things here on Wikipedia, not rounding up the laggards. This is one of those places where if the press got wind we're discussing the issue we would become a laughing stock again. In practice nearly every article here is gender-neutral. One would have to hunt to find articles that are not. It is easy to be just as precise and clear in gender-neutral language, and after a little practice it becomes second nature. If an editor learned English a long while ago when this was not the norm we can be patient, but converting an article to gender-neutral form is a good thing we should encourage. There are a very few cases, well-defined and understood, where gender-specific words are better. We can deal with those. But promoting an article to FA or allowing any other article to be unnecessarily gender-specific demonstrates that we are behind the times. I think we already have policy-wide consensus on the issue and can say so in the manual of style. If not, and if this isn't something we can decide over here, we should take the gender-neutral section out, suspend the discussion pending our resolving the matter on the policy pages, and come back only when we have a mandate. Wikidemo 11:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Wikidemo. Here's the online styleguide of the respected UK Guardian on the subject; its journalists are required to follow it, and I don't think it's out of line with most in-house styleguides:

gender issues

• Our use of language should reflect not only changes in society but the newspaper's values. Phrases such as career girl or career woman, for example, are outdated (more women have careers than men) and patronising (there is no male equivalent): never use them

• actor, comedian: covers men and women; not actress, comedienne (but waiter and waitress are acceptable - at least for the moment)

• firefighter, not fireman; PC, not WPC (most police forces have abandoned the distinction)

• businessmen, housewives, "male nurse", "woman pilot", "woman (lady!) doctor": do not use terms such as these, which reinforce outdated stereotypes. If you need to use an adjective, it is female and not "woman" in such phrases as female president, female MPs

• Use humankind or humanity rather than mankind, a word that, as one of our readers points out, "alienates half the population from their own history"

• Never say "his" to cover men and women: use his or her, or a different construction; in sentences such as "a teacher who beats his/her pupils is not fit to do the job", there is usually a way round the problem - in this case, "teachers who beat their pupils ..."

Tony 12:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Ahem. The "Grauniad" is not respected by everyone. If anything, it has a reputation of being somewhat left-wing and over serious on what can be described as 'politically correct' issues. Citing it as an example to follow would expose you to ridicule from, say Daily Telegraph readers. I wonder what the style guide for The Sun says. It certainly has a larger circulation than that of the Guardian. The Sun's circulation figures are about 3 million per day, the Guardian about 350,000. This is not to say size is everything, but if we are addressing the widest possible readership for Wikipedia, following the Guardian's lead may not be the obvious way. WLD^talk|edits 20:25, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

And those who do respect dear old Grauniad agree it has a point of view (and rather more reason than we have to appease the scruples of every fraction of its potential paying readership). Do let us know if you find a style guide for the Sun; its guides for headlines should offer a whole new light for our naming conventions. </irony> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Summary of consensus on the gender-neutral language text

Dear fellow editors—I'm posting the summary (now updated) that I'd already prepared for your consideration last week before things became really heated. I've sincerely tried to be NPOV in categorising the participants according to their support or opposition, and in summarising their views in as few words as possible by direct quotation or paraphrase. It may be possible to pore over the list and take issue, and perhaps there are one or two borderline cases. I'm sorry in advance if I've misrepresented anyone (please edit my entry for you if that is the case, but keep as short as possible); however, I don't think the overall picture will change. Of 35 participants, 31 either support or do not express straight opposition to what the debate has come down to: the shortened version. Here are the details:

• 23 support, of whom many support the original, full version, and quite a few would be more comfortable with stronger wording.
• 6 are unclear, of whom 4, in my reading, might well support the current shortened version if asked now; the remaining 2 are not clearly in opposition, at least to the shortened version.
• 4 oppose, all of them expressing extremely strong views—two of them repeatedly.

That there is overwhelming support for the shortened version is staring us in the face. Unanimity would have been preferable, but I believe that almost all Wikipedians, from Jimbo Wales down, would be comfortable in the notion that there is consensus for that version. I believe that it should be inserted, as Bishonen and PManderson have already done (albeit slightly different wordings), and that we should all move on from this debate. Tony 10:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Support

• BenB4 (long overdue; cited two peer-reviewed studies suggesting that sexist language alters the perceptions of readers to the disadvantage of women)
• SandyGeorgia (long overdue, logical; helpful tips)
• A1 (query potential of “person” etc to disrupt the flow; query retro-editing of articles for GNL alone)
• Jimbo Wales (supports a shortened version. “I generally keep my own writing completely gender neutral,…”; uses the singular they.)
• dramatic (provided clumsy constructions are avoided)
• Tony1 (long overdue, reflecting language in the real world; recommendation only, not proscriptive, but proposal too mild)
• SamBC (but no objections to words suchs as “manhole” please)
• Deckiller (sexist language a huge problem on WP)
• Rick Block (but not keen on singular they)
• Mark Askari (a “fine” proposal; proposed edits that were partly implemented)
• Kolindigo (proposed new wording - accepted)
• Hoary (if an editor objects to a specific GNL usage, they can bring it up on a talk page; strong support for singular they)
• LuciferMorgan (finds generic male pronoun offensive)
• Curtis Clark (A little hard to categorise, because says "Frankly, I don't care", possibly due to unease about the specific points in the full version. "I will continue to write accurate, gender-neutral prose on Wikipedia (although I do sometimes use the generic "she", which would go against the proposal), and I will continue to copyedit the most egregious examples of unsupported gender-specific language") Support, although it's unfortunate that it has allowed a lot of unrelated bitterness to surface.--Curtis Clark 13:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
• Chick Bowen (but doesn’t like singular they much)
• Marskell (proposal is “incredibly” mild; strong support for singular they)
• Gwen Gale (but would prefer just a couple of sentences of policy; concerned about readability and the use of generic professional titles; has since confirmed her support to me)
• bikeable (strong support, long overdue; strong support for singular they)
• PManderson (supports short version, and inserted it into MOS; opposes specific points)
• Slrubenstein
• Dan East (agrees with a shortened version plus list of exceptions, but not with the specification of ways of avoiding, nor reference to beliefs of the editor) Correct, although I prefer the GNL clause to match the style and tone of the rest of the MOS. --Dan East 10:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
• Bishonen (“we need language that doesn't favor maleness”; mentioned the power of language over thought; inserted shortened version)
• Paul Erik (preferred full version, but also supports Bishonen’s shorter one)
• Donald McLean (strongly support, it is a perfectly reasonable style guideline) Dfmclean 15:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
• Wikidemo (strong support below)

Slightly uneasy, but appear not to oppose

• Johntex (opposes the full draft; GNL not the norm; often cumbersome; but “I would support a single sentence from the draft, "Please consider the use of gender-neutral language where this can be achieved in reasonably tidy wording and without loss of precision.")
• JayHenry (“most people agree that it's a noble end, but there is virtually no agreement on the means of how best to write gender-neutral language”; feels that it’s premature. However, ‘If this is truly a recommendation, I will withhold my objection.”)
• DGG (concerned about specific prescriptions and mass conversions, but “For many political or modern cultural topics I would of course say to always use gender neutral language, and even change articles accordingly.”)
• Neonumbers (appears not to oppose; unhappy about the meekness of the “Please consider …”. Comments that “perhaps it is possible for us to give a definitive set of guidelines, like an order of preference or something”; not personally a proponent of GNL)

Unclear; may not oppose the short version, but hard to tell

• Woodstone (not “he or she”; and no mass conversions)
• Kbolino (opposed to what was the full draft, although “I do support some of its suggestions”, e.g., for pluralising)

Definitely oppose

• GRBerry (this is “silly blather”; WP should “lag the general usage of language”)
• Radiant (perceives an underhand political agenda; not WP’s role to change the world; strongly voiced objection; concerns about grammar and neologisms)
• Stanselmdoc (extremely strong opposition, and expressed anger: damaging to the language; GNL is not “non-sexist”; WP should not prescribe such things; will be divisive)
• West London Dweller believes the MoS should not have a policy on GNL - it should be "supremely indifferent", as GNL is politicised and the MoS should not be taking political positions.

Really, Tony is just about the last person who should be writing this. He is simply misrepresenting people's opinions to skew the debate in his favor. This is most blatant in the appeals to emotion and appeals to ridicule he uses to describe the people disagreeing with him. This is such an obvious straw man approach that it's not even funny - and aside from that, it is based upon the fallacy that policy is created through vote count. >Radiant< 14:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• Can you please provide an example of an "opinion he has misrepresented to skew the debate in his favor"? Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
• My opinion was condensed quite accurately, however this process has been too convoluted and confusing. The current iteration of the clause needs to be clearly stated here so a fresh vote can commence. Then interpretation will not be required. If an initial clause is approved we can consider further refinements, such as the exclusions I've been suggesting. --Dan East 14:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Point about GNL in MOS, and its relationship to FAC reviews. I need to clear up a misconception that is being put about, either directly or by innuendo: that I proposed this text so that I can use it in the FAC room to somehow force nominators to change generic male pronouns and the like in their FACs. This is not the case. First, I've been objecting to the use of generic male pronouns in FACs for a long time through recourse to other parts of the criteria, although it is not precisely mentioned there. I've only once encountered resistance; nominators are usually OK about adopting GNL when asked to do so. I will continue this practice. Second, I certainly won't be using this section to support my requests; if anything, this weakens my ability to place pressure on nominators in this respect, since it frames GNL explicitly as "Please consider ...". It will not be ammunition for reviewers in the FAC room as has been asserted. Tony 16:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, Radiant! needs to provide examples in accusing Tony of summarizing in bad faith. All it confirms to me is what I felt as the discussion unfolded: at 6-to-1 or better, people support this. We need to contact them all again to confirm in a second "vote"? That doesn't seem sensible. Marskell 16:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This now misstates my position; although that is not bad faith. More seriously, it certainly misstates Jimbo's, who supported only the key sentence; Woodstone's; and Gwen Gale's, who does not support the longer version at all. I consider using FA to impose this, or any other, stylistic choice (including suggesting it in an oppose) to be disruptive mischief. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh, Pma, the one sentence Jimbo supports is the only one that's in there, along with the 'Do not be disruptive' caveat. This is also exactly what Glen advocated. It's also exactly what you advocated. The central sentence, short and sweet. My God. Marskell 19:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

And you and Radiant have persuaded me, between you, that this text will not accomplish what I want most out of this discussion: to keep demands on GNL out of FAC, and, in general, out of editors' faces. Let us see if explicit wording to that effect will satisfy Radiant, which it may. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

• The count seems inadequate in representing support for the short form, only, as "support", simpliciter. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Do 4 opposes (out of 35 opinions) warrant a disputed tag? I'm not sure how disputed tags work, but it they aren't subject to consensus, we can probably dispute most of what's written on Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This increasingly feels like a 19th-century discussion in the 21 century. Many people find it unbelievable that this imbroglio is occurring, and that two or three antagonists can hold us all to ransom with their loud shouting. Now I see that PMAnderson has slapped his usual dispute tag on it. I do hope that people will band together to ensure that this tactic does not remain a fixture on the policy page for long. It appears to be an unreasonable, almost petulant refusal to acknowledge the overwhelming weight of opinion for some kind of GNL. I'm also tiring of this endles bellowing about the supposed use of this very mild—optional—GNL addition as some kind of weapon by FA reviewers. I see that the debate is being pushed and pulled to encompass the whole relationship between MOS and FAC. This is a diversionary tactic, pure and simple, to muddy the waters. Perhaps the aim is that the length and complexity of this debate will bolster the claim of these few antagonists that there is no consensus. I hope we all stand fast against it. Tony 15:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony's count involves counting everyone who has not specifically objected to the short version as in favor of it. This is misleading; until she reverted, I expected Radiant to support it herself. That's one reason I take her dissent so seriously; I don't know who else objects, and is still being quiet. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

FA criterion?

The question now at issue is short and simple: Should the text on GNL make an FA oppose actionable if the ground for it is whether an article uses such language? Tony says above that he would not make such an oppose; I would urge that it is not actionable; and strongly oppose any effort to make it so.

Radiant is convinced that Bishonen's text does make GNL required; I thought she was overreacting (having, after all, written it) until I got this message from Marskell, which seems clearly to bear that interpretation. I observe his good faith in saying so; but I think it a drastic overreading of the criterion: "follow the style guidelines", when they say "please consider". This is overly subtle, and I cannot blame Radiant for considering it disingenuous.

Does anyone else actually support making this an FA requirement? I hope not; I think doing so is an effort to impose a policy which would never receive general consent. If we do not mean that, let us please say so; there is no harm in it - and it may produce real consensus rather than the usual bully-the-minority version. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I have objected to gender-specific language in FAC reviews, and I have seen others do so. I am steadfastly opposed to creating a new exemption which will prevent anyone from doing so in the future. I note that a special exemption for FAC criteria was not discussed in advance, and so certainly there is no consensus for this loophole. Accordingly, I have removed the exception language. ←Ben^B4 03:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Please supply an example. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I was asked to comment on the GNL proposal. I oppose any move to require gender neutral language either as part of the manual of style or the FA criteria. "He" is the correct English language word for the third-person gender neutral or undefined pronoun. That's what I was taught in school, and that's what they still teach in school. Until the English language gets a replacement for it, I see no reason to require people to use clumsy work-arounds. Raul654 04:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not required by the wording here, so why are you pushing the myth that it is?Sorry, I've read more closely and see that Raul was referring to the proposal to insert a GNL requirement into the FA Criteria, not the use of what is mere recommendation in MOS to oppose nominations in the FAC room. Tony 05:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

OMG, there are many parts of MOS that are expressed in ways that make them recommendations: these cannot be used by reviewers as a basis for opposing FAs. For example, em dashes are not "normally" spaced (not "Do not space em dashes"). It is perfectly open to a nominator to rebut a complaint by saying "well I like them, I'm used to them, they're used in other publications, so I want to keep them spaced". As a reviewer, I merely cite the phrase from MOS and encourage, but I'd never oppose because of spaces around em dashes; it wouldn't hold water. I'd be irritated if hyphens remained as range separators after a request to follow MOS on this, but I would never oppose solely on that basis (there are almost always more major issues to complain about). The GNL clause here cannot be used to insist on GNL in a candidate. All we can insist on is that the nominator consider it. That's the wording. I'll continue to object on the basis of "not our best work". It's usually no big deal. Tony 05:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of supplying examples, we really do need an example of an FAC oppose based only on gender neutral language. Without that, this is a diversion based on a hypothetical.

Raul's position is surprising—I was being taught GNL, in general terms, by the first year of high school. I have written to Pma that this could be a cultural artifact but I don't think so. I'd be very curious to see the syllabi still advancing "he" without qualification. Marskell 08:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I find it very odd indeed. Which school teaches the generic male pronoun as a matter of correctness? Which modern textbook? Love to know. Tony 11:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's not exactly fair to think that just because you haven't encountered it taught, means it's not taught. I was taught the generic male pronoun and non-GNL literally my entire educational career, from grade school through college. So technically it still is taught, if not by textbooks, certainly by teachers. And in my career now (I edit law publications), there is no standard for GNL, rather, the decision to include it or not lies in the individual law-making departments (at least for the U.S. state that I work for). Which is why I was so diametrically opposed to a statement becoming a recommendation on MoS, since I don't think it's fair to impose it on individuals who disagree with it. BUT all that aside, I have to say I agree with Tony that I don't see (at least I hope) this issue becoming a problem for FACs. GNL can not be the one sole reason an editor does not like an article - if he claims that it is, I'm guessing there is probably something else about it that is bothering him. (haha NON-GNL!) And I have solid faith in other editors that they would say, "You can't use this as the only criterion for opposing FA status. Is there something else with which you disagree about this article?" Stanselmdoc 12:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm a practicing lawyer, and I rarely encounter gender-specific language in any recently-written contract, brief, treatise, law, regulation, judicial opinion, journal, newspaper, or anywhere else I can think. Sometimes an older professor or scholar will write in gender-specific language, and we tolerate it as quirky ivory tower behavior, but that would never be appropriate in the more business-oriented side of the profession. Law firms insist their associates learn gender-neutral writing if they don't know already. It does happen on occasion and it always stands out and in many contexts it sets the writer apart as uninformed, a distinction you really do not want if you are a lawyer. I'm not much interested in FA but if I did review an otherwise perfect candidate that used some of the worse examples of gender-specific language ("comedienne", "male nurse", "his or her" everywhere, using male or female pronouns to illustrate an example, etc) I would definitely send it back for revision. Does anyone have an example? I can tell you how awkward it looks. Wikidemo 14:23, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

This does not surprise me; legal language tolerates almost indefinite prolixity in order to dispense with any conceivable ambiguity, and the indefinite he could conceivably be ambiguous, especially if a client with an audacious attorney found it profitable to argue that she was not covered by it. The net effect of this general acceptance of redundancy is to make legalese almost unreadable; it is not a good model for us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention that I wasn't talking about "what is encountered", but about "what is endorsed and allowed" by entire departments and states. Not about what individual law firms require, but about what is allowed and tolerated by who writes the laws. But Pmanderson is correct that law isn't a good model anyway, because the language of law is often very different from an encyclopedic language. Stanselmdoc 14:55, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No, not prolix. Good writing. And one of many models. But I was simply refuting Stanselmdoc's attempt, above, to use law as a counter-example. As with other fields gender-laden terms are neither endorsed nor encountered, in most areas of law. Wikidemo 15:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Good writing for its purpose, which is not ours. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Counter-example to what? I was merely giving an example of my encounter with non-GNL in law publications, in response to Tony's perhaps rhetorical question as to where it is still seen. It wasn't a "counter-example" - it was an "example". You can't counter something that wasn't there in the first place. And again, the first sentence of my response was: "Well, it's not exactly fair to think that just because you haven't encountered it taught, means it's not taught." Soooo like I've said from the start, just because someone hasn't encountered it, doesn't mean it's not there. Because all I've been saying is that I read law all day every day, and I have encountered it, and it's accepted. So maybe I shouldn't have bothered answering Tony's question in the first place, when really I only meant it as an anecdote, and had no intention of "countering" anything. Sorry if it came across that way. Stanselmdoc 17:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Former tag

I see this has lost both the FA comment and the request not to be disruptive, presumably on the grounds that they are advice to editors. So is the request to consider. Without these elements, I must dispute inclusion of the sentence at all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Give us an example of an FAC that has been seriously disputed, let alone failed, on this basis alone. Of course it gets mentioned from time-to-time but we don't need a caveat on that basis. And let us suppose this still unproven problem actually exists: why do we need to insert a caveat into this one section? Marskell 15:17, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Ben suggests that he has; but his FA comments seem to be much sparser than his language would imply. Since Marskell assures me that he did not mean what I read him to say, and Tony concurs that suggestions should not used as requirements at FAC, I will stand with the non-disruption until I see an example.

It might be useful to make some general remarks, along the lines of Tony's below, to discourage reading MOS as stronger than it is; this could be either here or at WIAFA. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it would not be useful at all. Don't twist my words: cannot, not should not be used. This is a spurious argument that is becoming ridiculous. How can a Please consider ..." be mandatory. I'm sick of this, and you should desist. Tony 16:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm simply agreeing, and recommending that we say, that there are such differences as For example, em dashes are not "normally" spaced (not "Do not space em dashes"). Some FAC reviewers lack all sensitivity to these distinctions. This FAC comment (made yesterday, considered today) makes that into "no spaced em-dashes on Wiki". It is this sort of exaggeration that Radiant was talking about; and it is a far wider problem than GNL. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• (outdent) No one is perfect, and reviewers sometimes get it wrong, me included. All that was required was a polite rebuttal on the "normally" issue. No need for dispute mode or throwing out the baby with the b w. Tony 01:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

PM: yes, exactly, it is a far wider problem than GNL! Therefore, it might be an idea to have a special MOS section—MOSFAC—on the infamous "MOS breach" objections on FAC. What do people think of that? With the emphasis on the fact that MOS is a guideline? But putting in those piddling subclauses about WP:FAC here and there, as here or here, in some, or all, the MOS sections is... well.. don't you really see how undesirable and messy that is, PMA? What a lot of edit-war-inviting little battlegrounds it'll be, all over MOS? Please consider my alternative suggestion. Bishonen | talk 16:58, 13 September 2007 (UTC).

Both the objections at the top of this section have been met, one of them by Tony and Marskell's comments since. I do not now dispute the present text. As for the new section, that seems reasonable; a paragraph, I think, not a page, and using emdashes (not this) as an example. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

References and notes relative to sentence punctuation

The MOS needs to specify the placement of references and notes relative to punctuation. Specifically, if a reference follows a sentence, should it be placed before or after the period? I thought I read that it should be after the period, but when checking to MOS to verify I see it is not specified. I see both forms throughout Wikipedia, and worse, both forms within the same article. The same formatting should apply to references relative to commas as well. --Dan East 23:50, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

See WP:FN. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I knew I had read that somewhere. --Dan East 23:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

A widely contested recommendation. Do what seems best to you. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, Manderson contests it, but that doesn't mean it's widely contested. Manderson's agenda—let's not forget—is to reduce the authority of MOS. One of his strategies is to overemphasise individual freedom against the cohesion of the project (which MOS needs to balance carefully). Tony 02:45, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't describe the guideline as widely contested given that the vast majority of editors don't care about the manual of style. But based on the talk page discussion there's certainly no consensus for it. Christopher Parham (talk) 02:52, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

So the implication is that there's a default of no consensus unless it's explicitly generated over every point of MOS, here? First I'd heard of that. If you disagree, it's up to you to generate consensus for a change. Otherwise, I don't go with your claim that there's no consensus for the status quo. Tony 03:18, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion on the two relevant talk pages over the past couple months, involving a significant number of editors, is pretty much evenly split on whether to mandate after punctuation or to allow either style. One of the relevant pages is currently protected due to the dispute and the other is marked as disputed. Given this I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether consensus exists to support the guideline. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:50, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Manual of Style or Manual of style?

Shouldn't this be named Manual of style with a lowercased "s"?--Silver Edge 02:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, to be consistent with the "Capitalization" guidelines. Happy to see it changed. Tony 04:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Disagree--its a quasi-book and should be capitalized accordingly--it's meant to seem parallel to the actual published manuals of style. If we wanted to call in styyle guidelines, that would be something else--but I certainly dont want to go about changing the references throughout WP. DGG (talk) 08:25, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

While ironic, changing it would have all of the disadvantages of going against longstanding tradition with no real benefits. ←Ben^B4 08:33, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Excerpts

Hi. Is there anything about the use of poetry excerpts in articles not about the poet or the poem? I run into it in some articles and don't find it encyclopedic, but I'm wondering if anybody watching this page knows if and where this particular issue has been addressed before. The Behnam 04:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you give examples of the articles? Barnabypage 12:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd think of this as a case of using a quotation, not significantly different from quotations from other creative arts including fiction writing. Such quotations could be highly appropriate for a well written X in popular culture article (though very few of them are well written). Such quotations would probably be needed in articles on poetic form, such as Iambic pentameter, in order to get them up to featured article class. But we wouldn't use a quotation from a poem (or any other work of fiction) in a scientific article such as Halophila johnsonii. GRBerry 17:43, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I am disappointed to see that Descartes' theorem doesn't quote Soddy's poem on the subject; although it might be undue weight in the present length of the article. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:08, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

I can imagine the odd occasion where a brief poetic quote might be appropriate in a scientific article: Luscinia megarhynchos for example! After all, in articles such as cattle or mushroom we discuss cultural uses as well as biology, and if a scientific article's subject has very notably influenced poetry it could well be mentioned, and illustrated by a quote. As Septentrionalis says, though, we should be careful of undue weight. Barnabypage 18:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

While I think I've seen it in a few places, off the top of my head I can think of Iran#Poetry, Iranian Azerbaijan#Culture and Iranian women#Women in Persian culture. Even for a section about poetry, I think we should stick to RS claims about poetry's importance, and who are the important poets, rather than actually including poetry. I was wondering if the MoS had to say. I've got to go now, but more on this later. The Behnam 19:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Those are bad translations with originals in a non-Latin alphabet, so most of our readers will benefit from neither form. It would probably improve the encyclopedia to remove them; but that's an aesthetic judgment, not a MOS ruling. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course key lines should be quoted--they explain what the article is about. Much better to quote some actual text rather than to try to describe it--this is not the sort of thing to paraphrase. In general, for a long poem, even a complete stanza is acceptable with respect to copyright, though it might generally be sensible to quote less. I see we often avoid it, and I can't think why--it makes for much clearer writing. I think it should be not just permitted but very strongly encouraged. For non-English, its usually right to give the original or a transliteration to show what it sounds like, and then some sort of a translation--if its a preexisting translation it of course must be cited. It is highly encyclopedic to show what the article is about--the RS is the reliable place one copies the text from. I suppose one could go to the trouble of finding a secondary RS that includes an excerpt of the original, and cite the whole thing-- even under the most mechanical interpretations of RS and secondary sources, that's acceptable. DGG (talk) 07:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Moves afoot at MOSLINK to change guidance here

Dear colleagues—As a matter of courtesy and, indeed, correct procedure, I'm alerting you to moves at one of the submanuals to change our long-standing policy WRT not touching material within quotations.

On a broader level, may I state that the coordination of MOS and its submanuals is important for the overall linguistic cohesion of the project, and that the simple flagging here of important issues at submanual talk pages is essential for that coordination. Tony 02:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

How silly. Wikipedia cannot, and should not, be coordinated. A handful of bossy editors will not succeed in doing so, although they may succeed in disrupting the proper function of this page in trying; but if they regard my few edits as an imposition, they will have much more if the general community notices them. Tony, I urge you to consider the discussion at ANI; your position is unpopular, and your use of "submanual" is particularly reprehended. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

• It makes tedious reading, but regrettably I've had to keep up with it. My position appears to be unpopular only with you and Radiant, which is just fine. Have a look at Heading 28 here at MOS: "submanual" isn't my coinage. Tony 16:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • And Bishonen, who is difficult to annoy. I cannot envy you for having succeeded. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Not Bishonen; read it carefully. And this is wasting my time and that of others here. I suppose by "cannot", you mean "do not". Tony 23:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"Cannot" implies "do not", but I neither do nor see how I can; so I will stick with the idiom. Is Tony really deaf to it? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

What? Tony 08:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Now that was funny! Bielle 18:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Another non-criterion

There has been some comment at WT:WIAFA that WP:MOSDASH should not be reason to object to featuring an article. If this seems a good idea, it may be best to say so here, as in a more controversial matter above. I would suggest the following, but have not spent much thought on exact wording.

While English typography has a clear position on these matters, the difference between a hyphen and an en-dash is not very important. This section should not used to oppose the promotion of a featured article, as long as the typography is clear and consistent within the article. If you think it needs to be fixed, fix it.

Regards, Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the fact that there is a distinction at all shows that the difference is important. Using a hyphen in a number range is questionable form; using it like an em-dash (where an en-dash can be used as well) is just wrong. Strad 01:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is the Manual of Style. If good typographic practices are not encouraged here, then where? I'll admit it's unreasonable to oppose promoting an article to FA status solely on the basis of "poor dash use", but I don't think there needs to be a warning here to this effect. I like to think most Wikipedians are well-endowed with common sense :) Fvasconcellos (t·c) 01:37, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Starting with Raul. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Even if someone opposes for WP:DASH it takes at most a couple of minutes to fix (even on the most complex of articles) and if they opposed only for WP:DASH they'll change to support. This happened with my first FA, I read the policy, made the changes, and three minutes later it was a non-issue. I think that MOS is sometimes overly proscriptive, but this isn't really an example of that, because of how unambiguous the guideline and how easy it is to comply. --JayHenry 02:06, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. If there are dash problems, they should be fixed, and it's easy to do so. But the MoS is the MoS, and FAs are expected to comply with the MoS. Period. — Brian (talk) 05:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Brian, agreed, but "complying with MOS" (now "following") doesn't mean you have to follow what are mere recommendations or options; MOS is full of them. GNL is one; spaces around em dashes are "normal", but not, in the end, mandatory. "am" and "pm" can be dotted or undotted. There's flexibility strategically built into MOS, which is a good thing in the balance between cohesion and chaos. Tony 05:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Tony is perfectly right (yes, that is what I meant to say ;}) on what should be the case, but consider this deep and insightful criticism; it is this sort of thing, and the same tone on GNL, that I am trying to avoid. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Can you explain what is wrong with that "tone"? "Comment These minor stylistic fixes needed" seems fine to me, and they are minor stylistic fixes that are needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

No, they are not "needed". They are not necessary; they fall into the same category as the spaces around em-dashes, which have also been FA comments. No article is beyond improvement, but these do not make the difference between a decent article and one of our best. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• Strangely and unbelievably, I am finding myself starting to agree with Pmanderson. The whole dash argument is over my head to the point that I no longer try to fix FAC articles. The gender neutral stuff I could care less about, even though I was adamantly pro gender neutral some years ago. The MoS has reached the point that I am no longer willing to consult it and have my head spin with its quibbles and parsed language. As for FA articles, they may be "correct" but they tend to be boring. Better to focus on content as Panderson suggested eons ago. Mattisse 15:28, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• I share your concern that one person has destabilized the Manual of Style to the point that people are reluctant to consult it. Changes to MOS (like any Wiki page) should be based on consensus, and we shouldn't be left wondering from minute to minute what non-consensual change has been introduced here, confusing editors who may want to follow guidelines. To me, this is a much bigger concern than this FAC red herring. Dashes are trivial to fix, and shouldn't trouble anyone; they are the kinds of things you only need to learn once in MOS. It's the ongoing instability of one person tagging sections disputed in spite of consensus that is a bigger problem IMO. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I have tagged no section without evidence of strong disagreement from multiple editors. I untagged GNL when my objections were answered, although some editors seem in fact still to dispute the inclusion; they may want to restore it. Almost all of the recent editing has involved that one section, and it should not be cited until its wording is agreed. I'm sorry Sandy is confused; but I'm not sure that editing this text has much to do with her confusion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• You may say FAC is a red herring, but the last time I tried to fix an FAC article that was being prevented from promotion because of a hyphen issue, I read the MoS and tried to fix the article. The result was the article was called something like "endash madness" so I reverted my changes and bowed out. No one fixed the article so it was not promoted on that basis. I am an experienced editor and if I am intimidated by FAC and its relationship to MoS, then in my view it is important. --Mattisse 16:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you for agreeing. Do you remember which article? It would help to have specifics. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, please provide the example. I *highly* doubt that Raul failed a nomination strictly on hyphens or dashes; I can never recall seeing that happen. If a FAC comes down to one or two minor things, Raul is likely to insert a comment saying "please fix so-and-so and I'll promote". I suspect that the failure to follow MOS guidelines may have been an indication that there were other issues of preparedness for FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:11, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• I can't seem to get my example in with all the edit conflicts. I appear to have lost it. It was in the group with Orion (mythology) and I believe it was called William Claiborne. --Mattisse 17:36, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• • It may well have been a slip, as here; the previous FAC shows that all the objections were dealt with, but not all of them wasn't struck. In this case, some comments were made to Raul, and he put it up again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

(

Pmanderson asks What is the problem with saying that this is not a FAC criterion? (wrt GNL) and also creates this talk-section "Another non-criterion" with a proposal to add yet more "this is not for FAC" commentary to the MOS. Please stop. This is the MOS for the whole of Wikipedia and I don't want it littered with "required for FA" / "ignore at FA" commentary. Editors consult this in order to improve their prose and typography whether aiming for recognition at FA/FL/GA or not. If editors and reviewers are unable to apply common sense, we can't compensate by annotating the MOS with detailed FA-specific regulations.

Secondly, I oppose littering the MOS with WP:SOFIXIT requests to reviewers. If a reviewer fixes an article, that's a bonus, not an obligation. Colin°^Talk 08:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC) More generally, MOS should avoid telling editors how to behave. Colin°^Talk 10:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

New proposal: policy and guideline style

I am proposing a new guideline page, WP:PGS, on how to create, update, and edit Wikipedia policy and guideline pages. The purpose is to keep these pages clear, concise, and effective. This is not meant as a radical departure from existing best practices - it is modeled on the better policy guideline pages, in hopes that the messier pages can be shaped up to their standards.

I hope we will adopt this as a guideline (after suitable improvements and agreement on what the page should say) so that we can have stylistic consistency among all the policy and guideline pages. If not, I'll keep this as an essay for now - and cite it as I go about my work cleaning up different pages, to see if it catches on.

I'm also posting a similar notice at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) and to Wikipedia talk:Policy and guideline style - probably best to discuss over there. Thanks for your consideration, Wikidemo 21:16, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

On the policy regarding the use of whitespace

Having searched through the Wikipedia: and Help: namespaces, I have found no references to any policy regarding the use of whitespace in articles. I did, however, find these discussions:

• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 43#standard and consistent internal formatting
• Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 39#Improving the source text

I would very much like it if the MoS would express some kind of policy regarding the use of whitespace. At the very least, in the case of no consensus, it would be nice to have a short paragraph mentioning that the use of whitespace in articles should be kept consistent throughout the article. Much like the policy on the use of US-english or UK-english in articles. The advantage here being that when I do a search for whitespace, at least I can find a useful source regarding policy. ʍαμ$ʏ5043 09:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

New "Links" section

... which I changed to appendices. I can't tell what that section wants to be; it's mixing discussion of appendices with links in a way that implied that sources were "links". I tried to fix it, but it's still an unclear mixture. Is it supposed to be a discussion of how to use links only in appendices? I can't tell what it's trying to be. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It's still a mix and match to me, because sources aren't always links—they may be hardprint sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not a new section. It's a re-ordering of the old "external links" section, which had conflated external links with sources and confused which policies and guidelines were to apply. The old version had incorrectly classified sources as a sub-class of external links, went over the different ways to use sources (in-line and via "ref" tags), but completely glossed over (1) Harvard Citations, (2) templated citations, and (3) the disfavored practice of having a "References" section that is not derived from in-line footnotes. I reorganized it to give sources and external links equal but separate heading levels within a single section. Perhaps they should be split into two sections, or external links put somewhere else. If we are going to talk about sourcing we should mention how to add citations to article text, how to adapt them to footnote or Harvard Reference format, and how to format that in a References section. Or else simply say that citations should be made, but lack of proper citations a major weakness of most articles, one of the most important style issues there is. Wikidemo 15:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, it really seems like a mix and match that needs to be sorted out (links vs. sources) , but I'm not overly excited to wade into major MOS editing considering the current instability introduced by a minority. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

My Example of FAC failure because of endashes

I cannot seem to get it in with all the edit conflicts. It was in the group with Orion (mythology) and I believe it was called William Claiborne. I am leaving this discussion as it has taken me four or five edit conflicts plus getting lost on this huge page. --Mattisse 17:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Mattisse. That was just a neglected FAC, with apparently little feedback from the nominator, so what can Raul do? There it sits today, with External links and Sources combined into one section (how strange?) and a WP:MSH issue in that section heading to boot. If the nominators don't respond, it may appear that the article was failed because of trivial items, but it just doesn't look like anything was happening. I think Raul had no choice there. Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/William Claiborne/archive1 SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The point is that I tried to fix it after reading MoS on dashes and was told I had made a endash hell so I reverted my edits. In other words, a reasonably experienced editor, and an experienced writer in the real world due to my profession, could not even put the requested dashes in correctly. And this was after I asked for an explanation of the endash problem from an FAC patroller because I did not understand the MoS. --Mattisse 17:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you recall where that conversation happened, so we can discover the weak link? Was it on the article talk page or your talk page, for example? One problem I often see is incorrect advice, for example, from GA reviewers. Someone may have gotten you all twisted up, and there's not much anyone can do about that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

• Addendum: The problems you mention now were not mentioned at all in the FAC critique. The whole issue there was the endashes. --Mattisse 18:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Right, what I said was that it was a fairly abandoned FAC. Raul can see the article for himself, and has to make his own call when there's no feedback happening on the FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 13 September 2007 (UTC) Further clarifying: that is, in six weeks at FAC, the article garnered only one Support, so it's not accurate to say it failed because of dashes. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I am merely quoting the comments on the FAC page. I have no idea of the underground workings of FAC or why certain articles are "fashionable" and gather a huge political following and why some very good articles are totally neglected. That is why User:Zleitzen left and nothing has changed. I find it very unpleasant and will no longer be willing prepare articles for FAC which I used to spend a lot of time doing. --Mattisse 18:29, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Zleitzen's worthy article was completely overlooked by reviewers, and it was most unfortunate, but I suspect other factors in his main areas of interest influenced his decision. Sometimes there aren't enough reviewers who are familiar with a particular topic area (and Zleitzen's topics were fairly specific). My own sense is that some articles are overlooked because they're not quite there, and reviewers find it hard to pin it down. Claiborne isn't there yet; perhaps that's why people didn't weigh in, I don't know, I was busy. But I just glanced at it and saw a lot of unresolved issues. It wasn't only dashes. I'm still after an example of Raul having failed an article with minor Opposes over significant Supports. I still say this entire dash issue is a red herring; we suggest things that can be fixed during FAC, but Raul does not fail articles on minor issues, and I hope/think we all know that. If he sees a minor issue that can easily be fixed, he's more likely to ask that it be tended to so he can promote. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

My feeling is that there is an "in club" and that Wiki politics play a huge role as I have seen articles clearly POV garner a huge amount of "Support" despite glaring deficiencies. There have been many cases where the editor has responded quickly to any concerns, only to have the article languish even if the editor plaintively asks for more feedback. I think FAC is more of a popularity contest than anything else and encourages huge, bloated articles. --Mattisse 18:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Popularity has something to do with it; but the real problem is that the substance and writing of William Claiborne were hardly considered at all. Carabineri did come along at the last minute, after the nominator had abandoned Wikipedia, with three minor (and sound) comments on the prose; but before then the "strong oppose" was for linking years. I would not have linked them myself, but many editors do: for articles on the Peerage, like Earl of Devon, year-linking is quite standard, and recommended by the relevant Wikiproject. I can hardly think it the difference beteen a good and a great article; but if Lonewolf had had different tastes on the matter, William Claiborne would probably be an FA now, with no more attention given to its actual quality than it received in the actual course of events. I grow ever more grateful to Yannismarou for his lengthy and substantive criticisms of Orion (mythology). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:33, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

More and more I am agreeing with your point of view. Yes, you were very fortunate that Carabineri gave thoughtful, constructive criticism and did not harp on certain issues, even when you did not take his advice. And yes, I think it was extremely helpful to you because he was concerned with content over nit-picky form. It was helpful to me to watch the interaction and see the article progress. I used to think you were just being balky and obstructing the process. Now I see the validity of your point of view and commend you for persisting. --Mattisse 22:56, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and Yannismarou. Sorry I did not remember him. --Mattisse 23:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

They're not mutually exclusive, you know; one editor can review sources, another can review MOS, another can review prose, another can review comprehensiveness, and so on. PMA seems to think that one person has to do it all, or that one person doing X prevents another from doing Y and another from doing Z. I don't follow that logic. It's much easier for one editor to review content or prose when another has verified the sources or MOS guidelines. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

But, in this case, everybody chose to do MOS, and nobody did the others at all. This is understandable: looking for hyphens and linked years is easier than composing English, and much easier than actually evaluating content - a bot could do most of it; but it is also the least important. We have policies on accuracy, verifiability, neutrality; we depend on clear prose; this is, again, a guideline. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

And the other side is bad too, possibly as bad as losing a good editor. Suppose it had had all the MOS points right; it could have passed without any but the most cursory looks at content and clarity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• I don't believe this: why not just fix the en dashes? It would take two minutes. They're really not very hard. Tony 01:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
• I did fix them. Then you said I had created an endash hell, or something similar. So I reverted my changes. I believe I mentioned that in the FAC comments section. --Mattisse 01:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh heck, if I'd known it was going to cause you so much angst, I'd have spent the few minutes required to fix them myself. I don't normally do that, because it would open the floodgates. But where there's a clear need for brief, easy bouts of assistance, I'll do it. Is it still an issue in the article? Let me know and I'll act. Tony 01:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

FAC is over, and I doubt anyone will renominate; but presumably that will improve the article (or else why make an issue of it in the first place?) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Bat for Lashes, 10:15

I was wondering if anyone wanted to comment on the paragraph concerning Bat For Lashes's nomination for the mercury music prize - especially the inclusion of the exact time she lost. Take a look at the history and the discussion i have started . I was looking at this page for guidence around writing style (e.g. magazine, encylclopedia etc)but couldn't see anything. At present i feel the paragraph is uneccesarrily verbose and a bit ott given its significance, and slightly fan-ish 3tmx 19:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, its the previous history state you need to look at, i'm not sure how to link to it 3tmx 19:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Consensus, or not, for changing the policy on "logical" punctuation in quotations

Anderson and some new ring-in with a red-linked user-page have been busy making unilateral changes to the policy without, to my eyes, a proper assessment of consensus on this page. In addition, the changes they have made were inconsistent with the point below: "Punctuation marks are placed inside the quote marks only if the sense of the punctuation is part of the quotation (this system is referred to as logical quotation)."

I call for a debate here on whether the policy should be changed, before jumping in and changing the text. Personally, I'm not in favour of the change, since the logical format is consistent with WP's overarching policy on leaving directly quoted material untouched. I have a number of objections to the wording, and I'm very uneasy about the citing of other style manuals in the body of the MOS. Tony 03:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I support their change. The position of the marks is not a question of leaving the original quotation untouched, but a mere typographical convention. I think either rule is acceptable, and that the rule should be not to change whatever is in WP, but perhaps to try for consistency within an article. Tony is unduly prescriptive. The Chicago manual remains the basis of our MOS, and is appropriately quoted. DGG (talk) 04:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Where on earth did you dredge up that idea that Chicago is the basis of WP's MOS? Hello, it's not an American project, but international. Please point to some evidence. Tony 04:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)