Wikipedia talk:Did you know

Error reports

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This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and the featured items can be discussed.

Did you know?
Introduction and rules
Introduction	WP:DYK
General discussion	WT:DYK
Guidelines	WP:DYKCRIT
Reviewer instructions	WP:DYKRI
Nominations
Nominate an article	WP:DYKCNN
Awaiting approval	WP:DYKN
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April 1 hooks	WP:DYKAPRIL
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Preps and queues	T:DYK/Q
Prepper instructions	WP:DYKPBI
Admin instructions	WP:DYKAI
Main Page errors	WP:ERRORS
History
Statistics	WP:DYKSTATS
Archived sets	WP:DYKA
Just for fun
Monthly wraps	WP:DYKW
Awards	WP:DYKAWARDS
Userboxes	WP:DYKUBX
Hall of Fame	WP:DYK/HoF
List of users ...
... by nominations	WP:DYKNC
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Administrative
Scripts and bots	WP:DYKSB
On the Main Page	T:DYK
Main Page errors	WP:ERRORS
To ping the DYK admins	{{DYK admins}}

could the DYK phrase be included in the DYK plaque awarded to editors?

I expect this has been discussed before, but would it be very difficult to adapt the DYK award template and paste in the actual DYK phrase into the template posted in editors' talk pages? It would sure be a service to the editors, and would make their talk pages far more interesting to other readers. It is kinda boring to see multiple DYK award templates in their talk pages, without getting to see what was so interesting. The DYK would keep on working to drive traffic to the subject articles, too, if they were out there still.

For example, instead of just the DYK mentioning Bolton Hall and the DYK date at User talk:Cbl62#Bolton Hall, it would be nice if the template also included: DYK "... that Bolton Hall, the community center for a Utopian community formed in 1913 in the foothills snorth of Los Angeles, was later used as a jail?"

I am sure it would take a little more time, but the value added is pretty high, in my view. doncram (talk) 04:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, GDallimore suggested this to me very recently. He's designed a template for it which can be seen in action here and here and looks quite nice. It is however rather larger, and I do like the current slim design. As doncram points out, adding the hook would take a bit more time for the crediting editor too (though that could be removed if we just have the hook and don't repeat the article name).

Has this been discussed before? I'd be surprised if not. If so were any other good arguments put forward for/against it, and was a consensus reached? Olaf Davis | Talk 16:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Just looks like more work to me :)

I think if people want to collect their own record of hooks, there is nothing to stop them doing so now. And in fact, quite a few people already do. Gatoclass (talk) 17:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I do that on a section of my user page. It has the advantage that I can colour-code articles I have actually created and self-nominated (because I both self-nom and trawl other editors' new articles for hooks), and add more details if I see fit. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 20:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Sorry for coming late to this party, but I've been away. I agree it's more work and, for the user talk pages, not particularly helpful to the project as a whole. I just a drafted template for my user talk page since that was easy and was useful for me.

I think, though, that it would be worth the effort to do something like this template for the article talk pages, if DYK is worth noting on talk pages at all. I didn't want to spend the time creating a template for this, though, unless the DYKers actually wanted to use it!

So - Question: Is it worth having the hook recorded on the article talk page? GDallimore (Talk) 12:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Probably not. It's still extra work, and to be perfectly frank, many of the hooks we end up using aren't exactly riveting anyhow :) Gatoclass (talk) 18:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Character counting

User:Dr pda/prosesize.js counts the characters in readable prose. It doesn't count section headers or lists. Anyone object to linking it in the instructions section? Gimmetrow 19:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It works! And I speak as someone who didn't know what a "monobook.js" was until I followed the instructions. It would be nice to change the rules about what to exclude from the character count, to be qualified by "as counted by prosesize.js" to avoid disagreements. But only if it can be made a little more predictable  – when I tried it on Timeline of World War II (1942) it highlighted and apparently counted parts of infoboxes, including parts of infoboxes that you can't see unless you click "show". It also counts templates like the one at the bottom of Massachusetts. But sure, put it in the instructions. Art LaPella (talk) 00:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

That tool doesn't really work with lists, and it sometimes includes image captions. But it does highlight everything it counts, so you know what it's done and can adjust for that. Gimmetrow 06:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The tool works by counting the text within <p></p> tags in the HTML version of the page. This corresponds pretty closely to the readable prose, as non-prose text is typically contained within other HTML tags, such as lists, headings, tables etc. (That's the purpose of HTML tags after all, to indicate function.) However the Mediawiki software sometimes renders what should be other tags as <p></p> tags, e.g. if you have extra blank lines within a wikitable, which often happens in navboxes/infoboxes. I've updated the script so that it now doesn't count text which falls within things like an infobox. (E.g. if you look at Massachusetts you should see that the script no longer counts the template at the bottom of the page.) You'll need to refresh your monobook.js to pick up the changes. Dr pda (talk) 10:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Art LaPella (talk) 02:48, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Elsie Mackay

Hi, I'm confused. The DYK for Elsie Mackay was shown as approved on the morning of June 1, but by the evening seems to have disappeared without trace, (a bit like Elsie herself), not in DYK, not in archive, no dyk bannner in the discussion page. Can somebody please explain? (The DYK hook is shown below.) Thanks Autodidactyl (talk) 20:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

• ... that Lady Elsie Mackay, socialite, Broadway/film actress, interior designer, died in 1928 with WW1 ace Walter G. R. Hinchcliffe, attempting to be the first woman to fly across the Atlantic? Autodidactyl (talk) 19:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Confirmed. Vishnava talk 20:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again Autodidactyl (talk) 20:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it's been taken care of. Sometimes the credits get delayed slightly if the updating admin is short of time. Olaf Davis | Talk 08:08, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

== New template thingy ==poo

{{Verified}} - yields - Verified. Cirt (talk) 08:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

If it's used, it'd probably be a good idea to substitute this template ( {{subst:Verified}} ). BuddingJournalist 08:29, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Cirt (talk) 08:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but we don't use templates on the suggestions page. We've tried it before, and they slow things down too much. Gatoclass (talk) 18:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Would using "subst", as in {{subst:Verified}}, {{subst:DYK?no}} etc.slow things down too much? I still don't have the computerese names memorized. Art LaPella (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No, in general, substituting templates via subst means that the server will not be taxed by templates (since the server just replaces the wikicode on submit with the actual contents of the template, rather than having to look up and generate the template every time the page loads), and the page will not slow down. However, in the case of {{Verified}}, substituting this results in another unsubstituted template {{1}}. Why is Verified using {{1}}? BuddingJournalist 01:36, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I removed the {{1}} thingy. Cirt (talk) 02:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I have no comment on "Verified", but {{subst:DYKtick}} does the same thing, so would it be OK for us to use that? If so, would it also be OK to restore the instructions table at the end of Template talk:Did you know#Instructions to this April 30 version? Art LaPella (talk) 02:11, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Well I like this one better than {{DYKtick}}, but I suppose both could be used. Cirt (talk) 02:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Leurospondylus Ultimus hook error

In the current hook:

"... that Leurospondylus Ultimus was so named as it was originally thought to be the last occurrence of a plesiosaur? "

The capital U in Ultimus needs to be lowercased. All scientific names have the second, or specific, part in lower case letters. For that matter, it is lowercased in the actual article. Could someone please fix this quickly? Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 18:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Fixed. --BorgQueen (talk) 18:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

St. Mary's Church, Chepstow

Would this not look better if the whole of parish church of St. Mary was emboldened, rather than just St. Mary ? - after all, the article is about the church not the saint. (I know I did it originally, but I'm having second thoughts...) Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. --BorgQueen (talk) 12:15, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

phew...neat timing! Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Problem with archives

There seems to be a problem with the most recent archives of Wikipedia:Recent additions. Some of the entries in Wikipedia:Recent additions 215 seem to be included in the next three (216, 217 and 218). I'm not sure how this happened, or how it should be sorted out. -- Theramin (talk) 21:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

My DYK nominations

User:Keeper76 made a post here a while ago not to accept nominations from me, User:RyRy5. He has said here that he is let okay with it going through DYK nominations now in fact it is checked carefully and shown to be legitimate. Comments? -- RyRy5 (talk) 20:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That second diff by Keeper involves my name, so putting my two cents in regarding the article I believe he is going to be submitting. I did give it a look for copyvio and didn't find anything, but I didn't delve too deeply and cannot be held responsible if a copyvio does exist in RyRy5's submissions. Useight (talk) 19:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Who uses the archives?

At User talk:The Duke of Waltham#DYK bot we are discussing restructuring the Did you know archives. Restructuring doesn't matter unless someone uses the archives. So do you? Do you use the archives for any purpose other than to look up your own hook, which benefits only those who have contributed hooks? How often have you looked? Do the archives exist only to provide the illusion of permanence for a six-hour phenomenon? If so then maybe we need archives to motivate new hooks, but the form of the archives wouldn't matter. Art LaPella (talk) 19:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

In the past, I've used the archives to find hooks for the DYK section of the Organized Labor Portal. But that really wasn't a big deal, so you don't need to take it into consideration, if you want to redesign the archives.--Carabinieri (talk) 19:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict, sorry for some redundancy, although I disagree with carabinieri's note about being a big deal or not) I've used them to look what the hook on some article was when I happened to see the dyk template on the talk page, since the hook itself is not included on the template. For this, it would probably have been better if the hook itself was included in the talk page template (but I don't know if changing that now would be smart, since I like consistency). More importantly, I redid the film portal a few years ago (it's been redone since), and used the archives on a few occasions to look up new (or old, depending on the viewpoint) hooks for the dyk section there, the archives made it very simple. And I know you're not planning to delete the old archives, so this point wouldn't really matter, but the archives existed before the talk page template, so the only way to know whether an article had been on dyk was through seeing the archive on 'what links here'.- Bobet 19:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I have used the archives several times. Once I was compiling archives for the April Fool's Day Mainpage, so I looked for them in the DYK archives. I have looked through the archives to find hooks used by myself and others for portals. I used the archives to calculate the number of DYK articles generated per month for an article in The Signpost.

This archive should be arranged by some type of date order, with the date clearly defined in the link to the archive. Having a series of numbers is not very helpful because it's quite difficult to determine which number corresponds with which date. I gave some thought about how much information should be placed in an archive (if everything remains the same as today), and I felt that dates 1-15 in a month should be in one archive and dates 16+ should go in another. Another reasonable alternative would be a structure where the archive links to a year page, then a month page, then date page. Royalbroil 04:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a good idea, and I personally would also like to see updates datestamped in the archive itself so that anyone browsing through can see exactly when an update was displayed.

I've used them to look what the hook on some article was when I happened to see the dyk template on the talk page, since the hook itself is not included on the template - Bobet.

Adding the hook to the article template was suggested not long ago, I think that would just make too much work for updaters but on reflection I guess we could add the function to the template and just make it entirely optional, so that, for example, article authors could add the hook themselves if they so chose. Gatoclass (talk) 09:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

(to add on to Gato's last sentence)...or so a bot could add the hook to the template if a bot does the crediting. Royalbroil 12:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Gato's suggestion sounds good to me, since it doesn't make any extra work for anyone who doesn't choose to volunteer it. Olaf Davis | Talk 11:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Does this qualify?

I realise that when an article that had been around for a while can qualify to get into DYK if the article is expanded five fold. My concern is that there are many entries which are unsourced and probable single person's POV or CK. Most of the times there are details that are totally unencyclopedic. So the question is, if such entries are amended and cleaned up, do they still quality for DYK? In matter of fact the already existing details are removed and new infomations are added. Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 08:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The trouble with that is it makes it much harder to judge whether a given article fits the criteria. While five-fold expansion is fairly unambiguous, 'five-fold expansion of encyclopedic content' requires the reviewing editor to carefully consider how much of the original content was worthy - and DYK is already time-consuming and backlog-prone as it is. Obviously in some cases, such as replacing blatant vandalism, we can do it anyway, but I think allowing it in general will create far more work than it's worth. Olaf Davis | Talk 11:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, but unfortunate that this will mean that some interesting facts may never be made known as well as lack the encouragement with DYKs will mean that those entries will never be improved. :( Thanks anyways. Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 11:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Articles too technical for DYK

Hi, I know you are all really busy here so sorry for taking up your time. Most of the articles I have been writing for Wikipedia are fairly technical and I was looking for some guidance on what is considered suitable. The last article I submitted for DYK was Composite image filters which I thought was just borderline acceptable (and you did use it). The (unfinished) article I am currently working on, for instance, is User:Spinningspark/Prototype filter which I would say is not suitable for DYK although I am sure I could contrive a semi-interesting hook if required. Would someone care to comment on whether I am drawing the line in about the right place? SpinningSpark 19:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Why is it not suitable? I see no problems with nominating it, so I think your drawing line is off. You need to add some text in the first sentence in the lead to describe what type of filter thing you are talking about (to describe what part of the universe you are talking about). You are talking about electronics filters. We can use fairly technical articles. If readers don't understand the concept, then they don't have to click on it. Royalbroil 19:54, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! From now on I'll submit them. You can always knock them out again if you don't like them. SpinningSpark 21:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Provided that you can come up with an interesting hook, of course. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 22:26, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

All-American update

We may need to do one to get rid of all the accumulating US hooks. Better to get rid of them all in one shot than have a preponderance of US hooks in update after update IMO. Gatoclass (talk) 15:35, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. --BorgQueen (talk) 15:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, now that I've counted the hooks up to and including June 8, the number of hooks is about even. So as long as we keep doing 50% US hooks we'll be okay. It just gives the impression there are lots of US hooks because the days prior to June 8 are all US, but on the 8th there are lots of non-US :) Gatoclass (talk) 15:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

While this is here, are we planning on running full sets of U.S. hooks on the Fourth of July? I ask because other such days have gotten treatment (or at least an attempt at it), the Buddhist day being the most recent that I can recall. Unless there's a dicussion, I foresee many complaining of the "bias" if the section does anything like this. (For the record, I'm British, and don't much mind one way or the other. I just thought it apropos to bring the point up here)GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 19:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

June 14th is Flag Day in the United States, so June 14 would be a good day to use more US hooks than usual.--Bedford ^Pray 19:49, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

At least from what I gather from the media, it seems to me that Independence Day is more widely celebrated in the U.S. than Flag Day, though? We should really only go for one of the two for full-on U.S. hooks. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 20:34, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, as a patriotic U.S. holiday, Flag Day probably is #4 behind July 4th, Memorial Day, and Veterans Day. For example, all of the former three are Federal holidays; Flag Day is not. Jclemens (talk) 07:11, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Today is a patriotic day, but not nearly at the level of they other 3 federal holidays that Jclemens points out. Royalbroil 13:16, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

• Another example of US blinkers: Did you know "... that the presidential campaign of Chuck Baldwin began only two weeks before the 2008 Constitution Party Convention yet still edged the campaign of political veteran Alan Keyes in the delegate count?". Surely this should read "U.S. presidential campaign" - there are lots of presidents of lots of things outside the US. - Gobeirne (talk) 02:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

But do any of the non-US matter? *ducks*--Bedford ^Pray 02:10, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

:) - Gobeirne (talk) 02:12, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Scientology

I noticed there have been a lot of posts in the DYK section on Scientology. Recently 'Battlefield Earth' was a featured article. Is Wikipedia’s homepage being used to educate the public about scientology? I thought DYK articles were supposed to be thoughtful and engaging. The fact that L Ron Hubbard wrote a score for a movie is neither. The scientology facts are not interesting at all, and seem to be reoccurring. The other facts presented are usually very intriguing. When there are so many facinating things about the world I don't know, why would wikipedia waste valuable educational space for garbage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.165.48.146 (talk) 17:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean by "garbage", but the reason that there have been DYKs about any topic, Scientology or otherwise, is that someone bothered to write those articles up. If you want topics that appeal to you posted on DYK, please start typing. --199.71.174.100 (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This happens a lot on different topics. There are almost always some topics that were under-represented at Wikipedia that a single editor will actively write a lot of articles about. This time is happens to be Scientology. I can name several other topics that were almost constantly on the main page in the past like University of Michigan football and Eurovision. Please get an account and start writing on topics that you think are needed. You can make the world a better place and educate all of us. Royalbroil 20:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Despite the name, the only real purpose of DYK it to highlight new articles or heavily updated stubs. There is no real requirement or expectation for DYK articles to be thoughful or engaging and it is quite common that a variety of people do not find a variety of topics engaging or thoughtful. I.E. whatever we say there are always going to be people who already knew the fact, or otherwise did not find it interesting. Therefore, the fact that you personally did not find something engaging or interesting is with all due respect, irrelevant and unimportant. Far more important is that the hook is supported by the article (with references!) and comprehensible. If you get involved with WP:DYK you are welcome to propose different hooks for a DYK article but I don't think there is much support to completely ignore DYK suggestions just because some users don't like the topic. Nil Einne (talk) 00:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree with 199.71.174.100 (talk · contribs), Royalbroil (talk · contribs) and Nil Einne (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 02:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I strongly disagree with that statement. DYK hooks shouldn't just be random facts from new articles. They're supposed to "hook" people. They do need to be humorous, extraordinary, surprising, or whatever. Otherwise we might as well put some boring statistics on the main page. Although I don't think that the Scientology-related entries specifically have been boring, I do think that we should be stricter about hooks actually being interesting. People shouldn't be thinking "Yeah, so what?" when they read these facts.--Carabinieri (talk) 02:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

While I do think the hooks should try to highlight the unusual in the article, I also think that different people find different hooks interesting. I once nominated an article with the hook that a creek has 42 named tributaries, one of which is "Little Dog Run". I thought the stream name was very odd and funny, but someone else who looked at the hook for me commented on the large number of named tributaries for a fairly small creek. What I had put in to provide context for the funny / odd name was someone else's "hook". By the way, I think the Scientology articles have been fine. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Carabinieri is right that a lot of hooks are of the "yeah, so what" variety. However, we really don't get enough submissions to pick and choose between hooks. When we have an overabundance of them, that's when we can drop the less interesting hooks.

But there are also other issues to consider. Some articles have had a lot of work put into them, but they are on intrinsically ho-hum subjects or simply don't have an interesting fact to highlight. Should these articles miss out in favour of badly written stubs that just happen to have a better hook? At the end of the day, the DYK section does not exist just for the amusement of readers, it's there basically to showcase a selection of the best new articles being written for the project, and that's something we also need to bear in mind. Gatoclass (talk) 07:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Either you're missing missing the point or I strongly disagree with what your saying. A hook is ideally supposed to be interesting and draw in the reader. The article however doesn't have to be interesting, thoughtful or engaging, just an article which meets the requirements. Bear in mind the distinction here between the hook and the article. The OP apparently thinks the articles themselves are pointless and not DYK worthy. While he/she's welcome to his/her opinion, my point was that DYK was never intended to highlight 'interesting' (a completely subjective criteria) articles, simply new non-stub articles and heavily updated stubs. We should of course try to come up with the best hook possible, but different people find different things interesting so it's impossible to decide conclusively which is the best hook. It would be incredible bad practice to ignore DYK articles just because no one can come up with a hook one random reader finds interesting (or worse, because one random reader finds the article 'boring'). In other words, unless you can come up with a better hook, it is pointless IMHO saying "I DON'T LIKE IT' since it serves no real purpose except to tell us the opinion of one random person. Nil Einne (talk) 07:16, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, after saying you "strongly disagree" with me, you seem to have basically reiterated the point I myself was making. So I think you are the one who has missed the point. But thanks anyhow. Gatoclass (talk) 09:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I interpreted the OP as saying the hooks were uninteresting, not the articles themselves. If the OP believes they're boring to all readers (and some hooks are) they're welcome to explain why, but at the moment it does just sound like "I don't like it" to me - and of course DYK cannot and should not be trying to please everyone with every hook. If I'm wrong and the OP did mean the articles then Nil Einne is correct - DYK does not require articles to be any more 'interesting' than Wikipedia does, except for containing a suitable hook: they should be something we want to showcase, which means a well-written article rather than an interesting subject. Olaf Davis | Talk 08:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I think what he's saying is that he doesn't like Scientology and it upsets him that Scientology is effectively getting "promoted" on the main page with a bunch of hooks on fairly trivial Scientology-related subjects. I must say I share his concerns to some degree. However, given that the L. Ron Hubbard article isn't exactly flattering, along with a number of other Scientology articles, I guess it isn't such a bad thing if people read these DYK articles and are then inspired to read some more about the movement. Probably better they do so here than at some promotional site. Gatoclass (talk) 09:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Due to the varied responses to this, I (the origional annonomous poster) have created an account by which to donate more useful information. I don't like Scientology, but that isn't why I began this thread. My dislike for Scientology caused me to notice whenever it (or entities associated with it) was brought up. Due to my observations I noticed a trend of Scientology information on the main page. DYK that a hummingbird weighs less than a penny? DYK that the first person cast as the tim man in the wizard of oz was not able to play the part due to poisoning he recieved from components of his costume? DYK that Beethoven continued to conduct music even after he was completely deaf? Those are off the top of my head. Far more interesting than 'L Ron Hubbard wrote music to go along with his movie'. If we have to write information that nearly everyone would consider to be uninteresting, let's make it about a neutral subject (ie DYK that most brooms come with handles?). Wikipedia is a great opportunity to nourish and excite the minds of the public on the raw information of the universe. Let's not waste that opportunity. Anyway, I now have a face! InfiniteCenturion (talk) 20:00, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, thankyou very much for acquiring a "face", and welcome to Wikipedia! However, I must point out that your comments re the Scientology articles are misinformed in regards to Wiki policies. Valid topics for Wikipedia articles are basically anything that is notable, which is to say, anything that reliable sources have seen as worth writing about. Thus, because reliable sources have written about topics such as L. Ron Hubbard's book To The Stars, we can create an article on the topic here. Of course, treatment of the topic itself must conform to a neutral point of view, but we can't exclude articles on certain subjects just because some people don't like the subject. That would be censorship, and wikipedia is not censored. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 02:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Gato, I agree with you. The scientology articles themselves are no place for me to interject my opinion. I wouldn't do that, nor would I want to do that. If I did, it would only be fair for others to shed a negative opinion on things I found in high regard. My comment is not aimed at the articles themselves, which I think are written from a neutral point of view. My comments are merely pointing out the face time Scientology has gotten on Wikipeida's main page. If for instance, Jesus Christ were to get a 'hook' every week and get a featured article slot in the same time frame, there are some who would question if Wikipedia is gaining a religous slant. Or if Wikipedia's main page were to give interesting facts about John McCain and never mention Barak Obama, then it might be pointed out that there is a conservative biased. I wouldn't want people to get the impression that Wikipedia were so narrow or biased of an encyclopedia that it had to draw from the same series of articles twice a week. Wouldn't that be kind of like putting the same dress in a store window over and over? My opinion is that the dress is bland and boring. Regardless of my opinion, it's time to mothball it and try out something fresh. We're getting sick of the reruns.InfiniteCenturion (talk) 05:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

This seems to come up a lot. It's not uncommon for DYK hooks to show up in clusters like that. By design, DYK hooks always point to very recently created articles, so apparently what happens is that sometimes an editor gets really enthusiastic about something and creates a bunch of interesting articles on some certain topic. Then for a few weeks there is a noticeable cluster of DYK hooks for that particular topic, whatever it is. (Often the topic in question is a particular nationality.) I wouldn't worry about it, if I were you. Who knows, next month DYK may be noticeably heavy on kitten articles. APL (talk) 06:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Article fivefold expansion

I have a quick question about an article we recently expanded and the fivefold expansion rules. Maressa Orzack started out at about 600 characters long, but 6000 bytes. We've now expanded it to about 6,000 characters, but only 12,000 bytes. Does this count as expansion, as the visible character count has increased dramatically and the article is now ten times larger? Many thanks for any advice you can offer, Gazimoff ^Write_Read 22:08, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Among the unwritten rules we might list somewhere, is the rule that fivefold expansion is measured by the same prose-only rule that applies to the 1500 character minimum. So I count 620 bytes to 7034 bytes, which is elevenfold expansion. Art LaPella (talk) 22:27, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that much? I have nommed the article. The hook is interesting and very heavily sourced. Many thanks for your help!Gazimoff ^Write_Read 10:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Guide to DYK

Because I'm a little annoyed by all the ineligible nominations we get, I've written a guide to DYK. You can find it in my sandbox. I was wondering what you guys think and whether we should link it somewhere asking new users to read it before nominating articles. And BTW, feel free to edit it, of course.--Carabinieri (talk) 01:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Having a guide to DYK is a good idea, though I think this one could use some more work. One particular thing I noticed about it that is just plain wrong is the statement that "inline citations aren't required". Actually, they are, very much required, and I and other reviewers have been at pains to emphasize this in the rules so that people stop submitting entries that are difficult or impossible to fact check. I certainly don't want to go back to the bad old days of having to click my way through half a dozen different refs looking for the cited fact, so this is one part of your guide at least that would need to be changed. Gatoclass (talk) 02:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

First of all, we already have 2 sets of rules at Wikipedia:Did you know and Template talk:Did you know#Instructions, and changes to one set of rules don't always get noticed because someone is reading the other set. We need to avoid having the guide multiply that problem from 2 sets of rules to 3. Instruction creep can also be bad, but I don't see how that problem is helped by systematically enforcing secret or hard-to-find rules.

Here's what I meant above by "unwritten rules", that would remain unwritten using this guide in its present form. The question marks show where even I'm not sure if that's what the real unwritten rule is.

• No redlinks.
• No forks.
• No ads.
• No items that have already appeared on the Main Page or been rejected for In The News (?).
• The citation should preferably (?) be in English, and with no paid registration required to read it.
• Articles nominated for deletion won't be used unless/until they survive the deletion process.
• Don't falsely assume that everyone worldwide knows what country or sport you're talking about.
• Fivefold expansion is calculated from the previously existing article, no matter how bad it was, no matter whether you kept any of it and (?) no matter if it was up for deletion.

The following rules are written but often overlooked:

• Space after the ellipsis.
• In the Manual of Style paragraph, WP:DASH and MOS:NUM#Numbers as figures or words. Art LaPella (talk) 03:09, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

There was also the recent Signpost dispatch aimed at introducing DYK to new editors. BuddingJournalist 03:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK stats

Reading over the debate about Scientology, I was motivated to check stats for recent DYK hooks that have received the prime top spot with picture. I do think that the "interesting" element of the hook is key and find it disappointing when one of my proposed hooks proves to be a "bomb." A great hook will draw 2,500 or more views, and a mediocre hook may draw fewer than 1,000 views. As it may be informative to see what types of hooks are working, here are the stats:Cbl62 (talk) 02:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Article	Image	DYK views	DYK hook
Pale-yellow Robin		1,500 (article) 5,500 (pic)	that the Pale-yellow Robin (pictured) uses the prickly Lawyer Vine as a nesting site and for nesting material?
McCormick Tribune Plaza & Ice Rink		1,600 (article) 4,000 (pic)	that McCormick Tribune Plaza & Ice Rink (pictured) is both an ice skating rink and the largest alfresco dining venue in Chicago?
Uri-On		6,800 (article) 4,500 (pic)	…that Uri-On (pictured), created by Michael Netzer in 1987, was the first Israeli superhero to be published in color?
Culver Randel House and Mill		3,800 (article) 7,600 (pic)	... that Culver Randel manufactured pianos at his mill in Florida, New York?
Eberswalde Hoard		7,200 (article) 8,300 (pic)	that the Eberswalde Hoard (pictured), a collection of 81 gold objects weighing 2.59 kilograms (5.7 lb), is an important find from the European Bronze Age?
Harris Theater (Chicago)		1,500 (article) 140 (pic)	that the Harris Theater (pictured) is the first new performing arts venue built in downtown Chicago, Illinois since 1929?
HNoMS Kjell		7,900 (article) 3,800 (pic)	that the Norwegian torpedo boat HNoMS Kjell (pictured) was known as "Terror of the smugglers" when she intercepted rum runners during Norway's prohibition?
Tourism in Egypt		5,200 (article) 2,400 (pic)	that the worst terrorist attack against tourists in Egypt was in November 1997, when gunmen killed 57 tourists and 4 Egyptians (location pictured)?
Neil Hamilton Fairley		8,000 (article) 5,000 (pic)	that the British Army changed its plans for operations in Greece during World War II on medical advice from Australian Brigadier Sir Neil Fairley (pictured)?
Polyphemos Painter		743 (article) 2,300 (pic)	that the Analatos Painter, Mesogeia Painter and Polyphemos Painter (work pictured) were early Greek vase painters of the Proto-Attic period, active between 700 and 650 BC?
Cozy Dog Drive In		5,900 (article) 3,800 (pic)	that the original hot dog on a stick to be served at Cozy Dog Drive-in was called a Crusty Cur?
Yazdegerd I		3,300 (article) 5,500 (pic)	that the 5th-century Sassanian Emperor of Iran Yazdegerd I (coin pictured) was given the epithets of Ramashtras ("the most quiet") as well as Al Khasha ("the harsh")?
John Sowden House		5,700 (article) 9,900 (pic)	that the Lloyd Wright-designed John Sowden House (pictured) is known as the "Jaws House" because its facade resembles the open mouth of a shark?
Moika Palace	File:Rasputin-Big-photos-1.jpg	4,500 (article) 3,000 (pic)	that the Moika Palace, a museum about the murder of Grigori Rasputin (pictured) by Prince Felix Yusupov, was also the scene of the homicide?
Delaware (chicken)		6,800 (article) 5,400 (pic)	that the Delaware breed of chicken (chick pictured) was once the favorite broiler on U.S. East Coast farms, but is now critically endangered?
Brunei pitis		2,500 (article) 7,200 (pic)	that the first coinage used in Brunei were Chinese coins (example pictured), which were referred to as the pitis?
Medieval Bulgarian Army		7,100 (article) 5,400 (pic)	that the core of the Medieval Bulgarian Army (pictured) was the heavy cavalry, which consisted of 12,000–30,000 heavily armed riders?
Catholic Church of St. Catherine		2,700 (article) 3,300 (pic)	that the Church of St. Catherine (pictured) in St. Petersburg was taken over by the Soviets, closed, ransacked and twice burned out, before being returned to the Catholic Church in 1992?
Christopher Smart		5,800 (article) 4,200 (pic)	that Christopher Smart (pictured) spent five years in a mental asylum and wrote his most important works, Jubilate Agno and A Song to David, during this time?
Crescent Honeyeater		1,000 (article) 5,300 (pic)	that the diet of the Crescent Honeyeater (pictured) changes from nectar and invertebrates to wholly insects during the breeding season?
Andreas Frederik Krieger		960 (article) 2,500 (pic)	that Andreas Frederik Krieger (pictured) was one of the most vocal critics of the morganatic marriage between Frederick VII of Denmark and Louise Rasmussen?
List of Registered Historic Places in Chicago		3,300 (article) 6,200 (pic)	that there are at least 296 historic places listed on the U.S. National Register in Chicago, including a German U-boat (pictured)?
Attack Squadron 46 (United States Navy)	File:Va-46.jpg	9,200 (article) 6,500 (pic)	that John McCain was a member of the VA-46 Clansmen (insignia pictured) when he was wounded during the 1967 USS Forrestal fire off the coast of Vietnam?

Thanks for that very nicely put together presentation Cb, but you forgot to sign it :)

I must say though that I disagree with your conclusions. If your table indicates anything to me, it's that certain topics are of interest to readers, rather than certain hooks. For example, articles about war machines and war related topics always seem to score quite well - because, I guess, most computer users are youngish males with an interest in that sort of thing. Articles about US subjects tend to do better than other articles on the same subject, because lots of people with computers are Yanks. Articles on popular culture (like the comic book cover above) do well because popular culture is just that - popular.

At the other extreme, articles on less popular subjects can really bomb. My four hooks on Australian composers got an average of only about 250 hits, in spite of the fact that the hooks were in my opinion quite good - I mean, stuff like best Australian composer of the early 20th century is a pretty outstanding achievement. But only a couple of hundred people cared to know more. Whereas if I write a hook about a warship, it's guaranteed to get a minimum of about 4,000 hits, no matter how ho-hum the hook is. So I don't really think hooks are all that important, it's mainly the subject matter. I bet that recent article on the Pakistani model-actress got plenty of hits! Gatoclass (talk) 02:30, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Sex and weaponry may sell even with mediocre hooks (I confess I checked out the article about the Pakistani model-actress when it was on the main page), but this very small sampling seems to show that other subjects can also sell with clever hooks. Hooks about an 18th Century poet, hot dog on a stick, an Israeli superhero, a breed of chicken, objects from the Bronze Age and a Lloyd Wright house all scored more than 5,000 hits.Cbl62 (talk) 02:53, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I certainly think an interesting hook helps :) But as you say, some subjects just seem to be more interesting in general. It's a combination of the two. Gatoclass (talk) 03:03, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I've just started to keep a record of viewing stats for my hooks, motivated by a similar curiosity over which topics are popular with readers and whether having a pic has a significant effect. My data sample suggests these conclusions...

• Sex and murders are popular (getting the words "most bizarre sex scene" into a hook generated nearly 17,000 views...)
• Politics isn't
• Wacky, off-the-wall hooks can be successful (William Edge, a long-dead British MP, got more views than might otherwise be expected because of his exploits with pigeons)
• My series of Brighton & Hove places of worship articles bounce along nicely but unspectacularly; lead pictures definitely helped the figures in two cases

I love seeing surprising, bizarre or daft hook facts and memorable "pub quiz"-style pieces of knowledge (the current hook about the cultivable area of the Seychelles is a good example. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 08:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

For more accuracy, you could also keep track of the time when the hooks were on the main page, since there are generally less views for hooks that are featured during night time in America (I don't have stats on that, but it sounds believable enough that I'll present it as fact and hope no one will notice). Also, the length of time between updates could be a factor, but that doesn't seem to have been an issue recently (since the updates get done so promptly, good job everyone involved). - Bobet 08:57, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Since the goal of DYK is to draw viewers to new articles, would it make sense to recognize hooks that have extraordinary success, e.g., Hassocks' Jacqueline Voltaire hook that drew 16,000 views? Would it also makes sense to create a sub-page where we keep track of hooks that have drawn the highest number of hooks? While DYK is not a competition, an ongoing recognition for extraordinary hooks would help motivate people to come up with eye-catching, interesting hooks. Cbl62 (talk) 14:37, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I've thought of starting such a page myself, but it's a matter of finding the time, and I just don't think I can make time for any extra commitments around here ATM. Gatoclass (talk) 10:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's a first draft of a possible monthly "best of DYK" template. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cbl62/sandbox3 If others volunteer to contribute to such an effort, I think it would be a good way to continue to promote the best new articles. Cbl62 (talk) 02:09, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. I don't mind helping to update and maintain it when I get a spare few minutes. It could possibly be linked in with either the DYK contributors list or the page with DYK records and statistics, which for the life of me I can't find at the moment. I have a feeling that if accepted, the current candidate hook for Human-goat sexual intercourse may feature prominently in the template... Interesting observation from JayHenry below, as well; I agree that thought should always be given to providing interesting and relevant wikilinks elsewhere in the hook sentence. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 23:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I have updated hooks up to and including 16 June 2008—at the current time, the last day on which stats are available at stats.grok.se. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 22:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

In looking through the stats I've noticed that the bolded article isn't always what gets the most clicks. For example, on the day of Moika Palace, people who read the hook were more interested in Grigori Rasputin. While on a typical day a few thousand people look at Rasputin, on his day in the spotlight, 14,000 did which suggests a DYK bump of 12,000. If our goal is to draw readers into the encyclopedia then we should consider whether the other items in the hook are of interest as well. --JayHenry (talk) 03:08, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I've never had an article have 5,000 hits during its DYK stay. Maybe this will help be get an idea of how to improve though. Wizardman 00:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Goat sex

Currently at T:TDYK#June 19 we have the following nomination. I can't quite recall anything like this in my time watching the page, although I've not watched it nearly as closely as some.

• ... that in worship of the god Mendes Egyptian and Greek priests and priestesses would copulate with goats (pictured) of the opposite sex?

We should discuss this. The issue is not censorship, but rather sound editorial judgment and purview. First, is this befitting of a quality encyclopedia? Second, does the DYK project have the right to put this sort of material and image on the main page without seeking broader community input? There is precedent here as well: although Jenna Jameson is a featured article, it's been determined that this article would not be appropriate for the main page FA. Wikipedia is not censored, but this doesn't mean that it's therefore acceptable to put any topic whatsoever on the main page (as opposed to having the article on Wikipedia if someone seeks it out). I don't feel terribly strongly, but I think this is the sort of thing that should be discussed in calm and rational tones, so if there's a hysterical reaction we have something intelligent as a response. --JayHenry (talk) 00:33, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd never use that pic on the front page, but I would use the DYk. However, I would bury it by putting it third from the bottom.--Bedford ^Pray 00:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking purely at the article itself, it does not seem to be well-written or well-organized. Witness: The first subsection is a single sentence, and the third subsection consists of two bullet points. On those grounds alone, there's reason not to feature it on the Main Page. --EncycloPetey (talk) 00:40, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above. Images such as this probably should not be featured as part of DYK anwyay; this is our main page, despite our lack of censoring. -- Anonymous Dissident^Talk 09:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, My original nom hook did not contain that picture.[[1]] I am not sure who added it but I agree the picture should not be on the main page. (to EncycloPetey) The purpose of DYK is to get editors interested in the article so they expand it, is it not? So I urge you to include the hook as I originally posted it. - Icewedge (talk) 10:45, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

No, it isn't. The stated purpose of DYK is that it "gives publicity to newly created or expanded Wikipedia articles". The Rules explicitly do not allow stubs, so clearly it is not to get people involved in expanding articles. That is what various Collaboration projects do. DYK features new articles, thereby promoting the creation of other new articles. --EncycloPetey (talk) 23:48, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

The DYK rules say nothing about quality however and the article is long enough (about 1.8K characters). Also, the rest of the sentence you quoted says "and to encourage other editors to contribute to and improve that article". -Icewedge (talk) 22:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

No problem with the hook, but I'm not sure that using the picture would accomplish much other than baiting. If the article ever reaches FA, and is featured in the TFA section (which I don't really see happening, since Jenna Jameson is considered over the line for the Main Page), by all means use the image. Since we have many alternative hooks to use as the lead, let's just go with one of those. GeeJo ^(t)⁄_(c) • 12:41, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I've nixed the article, we don't need a badly referenced separate article on "goat sex" when we have a perfectly good article on bestiality already. Anything worthwhile in this particular article can be merged into that one. Gatoclass (talk) 15:06, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

• I expanded the article and added Human-goat sexual intercourse back into the DYK hopper.[2] Bebestbe (talk) 22:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It's an improvement but I'd still be reluctant to feature this on the front page. I mean, what will the next article in the series be, sheep sex? Cow sex? Horse sex? Duck sex maybe? Gatoclass (talk) 03:03, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTCENSORED. I believe your rejection for this nomination is coming from the fact that this is a very fetish thought. But rules say it is good to go. --gppande «talk» 07:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

We already have a bestiality article. Why do we need separate articles on the different animals people choose to have sex with? That is my concern. I don't give a toss about a "goat sex" article one way or another but you have to realize that wikipedia already gets criticized for alleged lack of standards in some quarters, and I don't see why we should give the critics a free shot. Gatoclass (talk) 07:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Gatoclass. I added the photo to the first DYK listing of the article, saw the trouble, felt bad about it, so I added more info to the article and reposted it to DYK. It does meet DYK requirements. DYK suggestions that meet DYK requirements usually are not removed (or lined out), even under controversial topics situations. I think what happens in such controversial topics situations is that the suggestion either is timely picked up by an admin for DYK and posted to the Main Page or it goes to expiring noms, where it still can be picked. Expired noms not picked up by an admin for DYK are removed in a group. WP:NOTCENSORED is met, the system is applied fairly to all posted suggestions, and everyone is happy (until they are not). Bebestbe (talk) 21:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK archive page

We've talked about datestamping the updates in the archive for a while now, but nobody's done anything so I've left some simple instructions at the top of the archive page for doing so. Also left a suggestion that the archive page should itself be archived every Friday (which makes a total of about 28 updates or 200 hooks per archive). Because there are no instructions, no-one ever seems to archive the page and I think the last archive I did had about 2,000 hooks in it! Gatoclass (talk) 07:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Betacommand is working on date stamping article creation requests. See this thread. Perhaps he/she can create a bot to datestamping the DYK updates (or just post a request at Wikipedia:Bot requests and someone else may do it). Bebestbe (talk) 22:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Recent additions page

Folks, this is gettin' ridiculous. I have had to add three missing updates to the archive page today alone - half a dozen at least in the last couple of days. What is so hard about remembering to update the previous set of hooks to recent additions at the same time you post the new update to the front page?

Just for the record, here's how I go about posting a new update:

1. Post the new update to T:DYK and purge the mainpage;
2. Reset the clock;
3. Open the T:DYK page history, open the edit prior to the one I just made;
4. Right click on the picture to open it in a new window. If it still has an mprotected tag and is protected, I remove the tag and unprotect. If it's a copy of an image from Commons, I just delete it;
5. Close the window and go back to the previous page, click "edit" and copy the hooks;
6. Post them to the "Recent Additions" page along with a timestamp;
7. Job done! Now all that's left is the notifications.

It's really very easy, only takes a minute to do the whole thing, so I just can't understand why people aren't doing it. If you make it part of your routine, you can't go wrong. I might have to post the above instructions somewhere to inform updaters who are not so familiar with the process. Gatoclass (talk) 13:01, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I had been following that routine around the clock for a while, as you'd know, but I got tired recently and had to take a break - which is still ongoing, leading to my recent sloppiness in archiving. But I am curious too, because it seems that some admins never bother to archive any update, and some of them even seemingly refuse to do the credits, and I am not talking about newbies. I mean, if they are too busy we will have to understand but they apparently have time to write articles and submit them to DYK!! I don't mean to sound harsh to anyone, but perhaps this might be a good opportunity for them to explain their reasons (slow connection, etc) or ask questions if they still don't understand the process. --BorgQueen (talk) 14:12, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I can quite understand your tiredness, I have started to feel quite burnt out with doing the updates over the last day or two myself, and I feel I need to step away from it for a while because it's becoming less a fun thing to do and more of a chore. As it happens, you only missed one archiving, and I've never seen you do that before. Bedford however has missed several, as I pointed out to him on his talk page recently, and someone unfamiliar with the process also missed one, but I really think we need to rewrite the rules or something to explain a bit better what to do because if people are only going to archive the occasional set of hooks we might as well just forget the whole thing. Gatoclass (talk) 15:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Like I said on my talkpage, people can't decide when the hooks are archived, so I've let others decide on that.--Bedford ^Pray 18:44, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought we decided to always add the hooks after they are done being featured. Thanks for the steps for promoting: they make more sense than the order that I had been using. I'll try to watch more for promoting the next updates. You guys were so efficient it hardly seemed worth it to check. If I looked five minutes late, it was usually done or in progress. Royalbroil 18:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Oldest co-operative

{{editprotected}} Please change the hook for Lothian, Borders & Angus Co-operative Society in Template:Did you know to:

• ... that Scotland's Lothian, Borders & Angus Co-operative Society was founded in 1839, five years before the Rochdale Pioneers?

Reason is that although older than Scotmid and Clydebank, I am not 100% convinced that the 1863 The Co-operative Group it didn't absorb any very old Scottish societies in the 20th century. (See also Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cooperatives#Main page.) --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 11:10, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

 Done PeterSymonds (talk) 12:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, and sorry for the garbled English in my request. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:08, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

DYK poor fact checking issues -- does it matter when articles on main page are wrong?

Does it matter that the articles in DYK are often plagiarized and wrong? Today's list has a fact from Deux Balés National Park which maps the Black Volta River in far eastern Burkina Faso--it's not. The river on the map, in far eastern Burkina Faso is the Oti. The Black Volta is just west of center. I don't think that complaints about problems on the main page are welcomed. But DYK appears to be out of control. Do editors earn rewards for DYK contributions? There is not much time spent fact checking. Even Wikipedia could have been used to fact check this article, and see that it's wrong.

I think the rules could stand to be changed to include some fact checking and plagiarism checking time. --Blechnic (talk) 02:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Great idea! We could really use some extra hands, does this mean you're volunteering? Gatoclass (talk) 02:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

We need some kind of special programming for that.--Bedford ^Pray 02:49, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm not volunteering. I had my head bitten off, got attacked by half a dozen editors the first time I pointed out that an article in DYK was plagiarized, and was blocked for a week. Now it appears that articles by Carol Spears that appear in DYK have been heavily plagiarized, but the ones I've reviewed have also been wrong. I've seen quite a few wrong and plagiarized DYK articles. Again, it's been made abundantly clear by how I was treated that knowing the articles on the main page are factually inaccurate or plagiarized is unwanted shoot-and-attack-the-messenger information. I suggest, though, that it disgraces Wikipedia. Thanks for moving this Bedford. It doesn't help that it's almos

t impossible to find where to point out a wrong fact in DYK. You don't even have to be an African geographer to have seen that west of the Black Volta is not in eastern Burkina Faso. --Blechnic (talk) 02:56, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I've volunteered with this for a very long time. I've pointed out or fixed errors in very many articles and never had any problems like you describe. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Of course it matters if articles on Wikipedia are plagiarized, and it's very important that we get them fixed. The way DYK works is that articles are submitted at T:TDYK and sit there typically for five days. During this time editors review the articles and try to catch these errors. It's a huge amount of work and more help is always appreciated. If you notice a problem on an article at T:TDYK then please leave a comment below the article stating the problems. Articles that get flagged as problematic will not be added to the T:DYK template until the issues have been fixed (and if the issues are not fixed, they will not be placed on the main page at all). Of course it's very difficult to fact check everything in every article that comes through the system, which is why more help is always needed; the editors running DYK are human and sometimes miss things or make mistakes. --JayHenry (talk) 03:04, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Well it's not merely difficult to fact check everything, it's just plain impossible. We are struggling mightily just to check the facts in the hooks alone, which probably amounts to between 50-100 facts per day, to check every fact in every article would mean literally thousands of facts and we would need a fulltime staff of dozens to do that, along with considerable resources. Ain't gonna happen.

However, as I indicated above, if Blechnic has found so many mistakes he is more than welcome to report them, either at main page errors or better still on the suggestions page prior to posting, where we are chronically in need of more people to process submissions. Gatoclass (talk) 03:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I write articles about tropical African agricultural pests, a rarified area on Wikipedia. I don't find, after reading so many plagiarized and inaccurate articles, that DYK is compelling. I usually go to the article after finding the DYK congrats tag on someone's talk page. However, do you think these unrelated articles are more important than some better coverage on African geology, soils, plants and their pathogens, rivers, and geography? Do you think it would be better for me to spend time fact-checking in an area I know nothing about, when I can run through 10 African plant stubs and at least add the information that it's a tree, a bush, a vine, in upper or lower tropical rainforest, a medicinal plant, used to make xylophones? And that I can quickly verify those facts with a glance at a book on my shelf, verify information not found on the web, or access private data bases to verify? Or would it be better for me to do a second rate job fact checking an unrelated pile of articles of varying importance outside of my area? This seems like a call against expertise: no matter what you know, have been trained and educated in, don't spend your time there, but randomly make sure that brand new articles on the front page are accurate?

Why not ask the projects to edit the articles before they go on the main page, give them 3 days after it has been selected to appear, to edit and correct and fact check the article. I'll embarrass them after that. You have almost no one writing about tropical African agricultural pests, don't ask the few editors who can do that to edit a church in New York, the Buddweiser Clydedales, and an industrial metal band and make Wikipedia far more American and limited world view than it already is. --Blechnic (talk) 03:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I understand your proposal. How exactly would the system work? [XXX] reviews the articles for DYK eligibility and selects them to appear on the main page. Then [XXX] would be responsible for finding active WikiProjects (bear in mind that the vast majority of projects are not highly active), notifying them of the article and asking them to vet the article over the course of the next three days. After that, [XXX] would promote the hooks which have been checked? -JayHenry (talk) 04:06, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to think that involving wikiprojects more closely might lead to better articles, but I'm thinking it might just make things a lot more unmanageable. For one thing, someone is going to have to inform a relevant wikiproject or two whenever an article in its area of interest is submitted. Then we have to hope that someone at that project actually cares enough to vet the article (they aren't doing it on the front page now, will it make any difference if the article is posted on their own wikiproject?). And then at some stage the time for improvement is up and that article enters the DYK pool for promotion. I mean, I can see this becoming a bit of a management nightmare.

Apart from which - let's face it - quite a few wikiprojects are just wp:battlegrounds with groups of wilfully ignorant partisans slugging it out over the fence. Is involving such groups likely to lead to better articles? I doubt it. So I'm not at all persuaded of the benefits of a proposal like this. Gatoclass (talk) 04:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

And come to think of it, User:AlexNewArtBot already sorts new articles for WikiProjects, and the active WikiProjects actually monitor the lists the bot creates and check and improve these articles. So there's already a five-day fact checking period and a system to notify editors with relevant expertise who are active. I think I agree that the issue is a lack of manpower and perhaps a lack of understanding from the community regarding what DYK is all about: giving publicity to newly created or expanded Wikipedia articles, as a way of thanking the editors who create new content and to encourage other editors to contribute to and improve that article and the encyclopedia. The articles are allowed to be a work in progress. (Of course it goes without saying that absolutely no edit should be plagiarized or a copyright violation.) --JayHenry (talk) 05:11, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

But that's exactly what is happening, your lead sentences, entire articles, your hooks, the references: wrong, plagiarized, plagiarized, wrong.

On Wikipedia the first thing that always crops up in response to a suggestion, usually faster than anyone can think about it, is why it can't be done, why changing a really crappy method--namely, plagiarizing other people's work and highlighting it on the front page--is wrong, why nothing in the known universe can ever change, ever be invented, ever be imagined to occur in a different way.

And, look, that's about the only constant in the human race through history: the nay sayers. Yet here we are on the internet, and I drove to work today, in a car that gets 40mpg.

Make it the responsibility of the nominator to get the article to a WP or other place for fact checking.

Or, as someone suggested, reward good articles, instead of new articles.

Or block articles from editors who've submitted prior articles with poor fact checking, because DYK is a contest. Or make a tag for their page, or correct the damn articles when someone points out they're wrong instead of attacking and blocking editors who point out they're plagiarized.

I haven't figured out what the prize is yet, but there is one for getting your article in DYK, because that is how a small subgroup of editors act: precisely as if there is a prize, and people are treating it just like that: rack up the points no matter what.

I can't for the life of me figure out how the editor thought that the Black Volta was in eastern Burkina Faso. The article he used as a source didn't say that. No Wikipedia maps say that. None of the articles he references said that. But it didn't matter, because this encyclopedia isn't accurate and doesn't strive for accuracy, just encouraging bad editors. Yet, there it was, a quick and dirty and fastly written article with just that little factoid brightly opening it, a major drainage basin in Africa changed, because crap, apparently "encourages editors to contribute to and improve that article and the encyclopedia."

Sorry, JayHenry, no encyclopedia was ever improved by getting facts in its articles wrong, and if these are the editors you want to encourage, I think DYK is worse off than I could have imagined. But that explains why I've yet to examine a single DYK article that was factually accurate or not plagiarized. --Blechnic (talk) 05:50, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

First article I checked on DYK right now, Beth Wambui Mugo, is plagiarized this web page. It's rampant. --Blechnic (talk) 06:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a stub ... way too short to go on the Main Page in any event. Daniel Case (talk) 13:35, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Um... you DID see that that source was already listed as a reference and cited multiple times in that article, right? A re-reading of WP:Plagiarism may be in order, especially the "without attributing that material to the original author" bit. Jclemens (talk) 06:44, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, did you see the quote marks in the article? They're not there, that's because it's plagiarized, which it is. If you use material verbatim from another source, you must use quote marks. --Blechnic (talk) 06:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I DEFY YOU to show one of my articles was plagiarized from the web. That's 135 and, except for maybe part of a paragraph in one or two that came from a public domain source like the NPS, none of mine are plagiarized.--Bedford ^Pray 06:36, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, shoot me dead, bitch I am, for pointing out the plagiarisms on DYK. Come on, get me blocked, harass me, challenge me, mock me, assault me. Oh, my god! I'm going to go look at your articles now! No, wait, I don't care to read any of yours. I've read a couple of dozen DYK articles. Every single one has contained rampant plagiarism. If that's the company you want to keep, who am I to defy your desires to hang out with your buddies? I did just read an article, the first one, that appears not to have been plagiarized, not only that, the author appears to have used his sources well, a little heavy on the hiking guides, but these are supported by other sources I found. The article needs more references, but even the unreferenced lines don't appear plagiarized, and, wow, imagine that, he didn't copy lines of text verbatim without quotation marks. Oh, wait, I already said he didn't plagiariaze. He or she. --Blechnic (talk) 06:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

You really aren't going to help persuade anyone with wild exaggerations. I very much doubt you have found "rampant plagiarism" in "every single one" of the dozen DYK articles you have supposedly read. That sort of comment is only likely to damage your own credibility.

As I've said, anytime you find plagiarism problems on DYK, find an active DYK admin and they will deal with it. If you find a lot of it, you will quickly persuade us that we have a significant problem that needs addressing. But merely making unsubstantiated and dubious claims is not going to help your cause. Gatoclass (talk) 08:02, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I think if I read a couple of dozen articles on DYK and they all contain plagiarism, that's rampant plagiarism on DYK. And, look, when I was discussing it last night, I didn't have to even go to the archives or my watch list to find examples, I simply went to the main page, picked an article at random, and it was plagiarized. It should not have been that easy to support my accusations--but it was. You ought to worry more about the quality of stuff on the main page.

And, you know what, when I was attacked and blocked for a week for complaining about a DYK plagiarism, that kinda put a damper on reporting it. It also, I suspect, is an indicator of how complaints on DYK are handled: shoot the messenger dead, get rid of them from Wikipedia. --Blechnic (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

(←) In response to: "Sorry, JayHenry, no encyclopedia was ever improved by getting facts in its articles wrong, and if these are the editors you want to encourage, I think DYK is worse off than I could have imagined." What on earth are you talking about? Where did I say anything where any possible interpretation of what I said by any remotely intelligent person could lead to the conclusion that you drew? I'm a volunteer here. I'm not in charge. Why would I want to volunteer with somebody like you who's going to distort the things I said? Yep, I'm going to go ahead and take a break from that. Honestly tell me Blechnic how I'm supposed to respond to that ridiculous insult? I've got more important things to do... so good luck. Your work will be easier now that I've stopped my advocacy for incorrect facts and stopped my encouragement of plagiarists. Geez, insult the volunteers at the soup kitchen because there's hunger in the world, huh? --JayHenry (talk) 13:07, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

"Remotely intelligent?" Are you resorting to personal attacks. Remember, first time I complained I was attacked by 6 editors or so, 3 of them administrators, and blocked for a week. Your comment does not deserve to be read, any more than the plagiarized crap on DYK. However, again, it just proves my point: the encyclopedia's quality is second to something else, and any challenges to that something else must be met with personal attacks. Yawn. --Blechnic (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

JayHenry, there's a reason that I didn't comment on this thread. It is not productive and it is a waste of time. Have and will copyright violations occasionally get on the main page? Yes, probably less than 1% of the time. Does that mean that DYK is broken? No. Blechnic, you can't expect people to know everything. I don't expect you to know things that are common knowledge to racing fans. You shouldn't expect non-African's to know things that are common knowledge to Africans. Wikipedia can't be proactive about the main page because there aren't enough volunteer time (or interest) to fact check the dozens of articles that appear in DYK each day. Even fact checking the main hook has been time consuming and difficult. There had been copyright violation bots that used crawl the Wikipedia database looking for copyright violations. Apparently that is no longer happening. I suggest that Blechnic spend time trying to get them to resume searching. Wikipedia will be better. Royalbroil 13:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an African, and I only criticized the glaring and easily found inaccuracies. --Blechnic (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

CorenSearchBot is running today - it aims to spot copyvio's of web pages in new articles. I share everyone's frustration that neither it nor a human didn't spot Beth Wambui Mugo. As for factual errors in new articles, mea culpa. By the way, Blechnic, there is indeed (an illusion of) a prize: DYK is mentioned on 1 or 2 admin coaching pages. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 15:52, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Blechnic, could you link to the incident where you were attacked for pointing out inaccuracies in DYK hooks? I can't find it in your contribs. Olaf Davis | Talk 16:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Check my block log for dates, then run through those links and dates on my talk page. --Blechnic (talk) 23:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to agree that just reading all the suggestions, checking the facts cited in the hooks (as well as checking for new article length or five-fold expansion), and doing the updates and notifications four times a day is a huge task. In an ideal world every aspect of each article would be checked before it appeared on the Main Page in DYK, but this is not an ideal world. I also note DYK has almost certainly been updated twice in just the time this conversation has been going on.

I wanted to thank Blechnic for pointing out this problem. Any errors on the Main Page are probably best reported to WP:ERRORS for quickest response. I also wondered if you (Blechnic) would be willing to look at the suggested hooks at Template talk:Did you know every two days or so and check just the ones you have some expertise on (Africa related and anything else). Anything not up to snuff could be noted under the suggested hook, as is already done. My guess is part of the problem is that not many people work on or know as much about African topics, so errors in an article on the Budweiser Clydesdales are more likely to be noticed because more people are familiar with them (and I am not asking you to check such articles anyway). Thanks to everyone who keeps DYK running smoothly and to Blechnic for catching some problems. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

There is not "rampant" plagarism in DYK--Mugo, which I may take the blame for, I thought (and still think, though I will not re add until I receive clarification) was in the public domain for being part of a Kenyan government source. As many know, DYK is frequently backlogged, and the real problem is the fact that not many admins work on the project. And BTW, there is rules against plagarism--we just need some admins to do the fact checking. I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 21:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, Beth_Wambui_Mugo was only viewed 21 times in June 2006. Bebestbe (talk) 22:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but it was damn easy to find a case where an article had been copied verbatim just going to DYK--I didn't have to spend 20 seconds searching.

I would be glad to check for African articles on DYK. I can't promise I will find everything, but I realize how foreign much of Africa is to the West, particularly when getting down to details and fact checking. My knowledge of Africa is very poor and geographically confined to western tropical Africa, though. I would like to see more articles on Africa in Wikipedia and more accurate articles. Somewhere besides South Africa and Egypt, that is. --Blechnic (talk) 23:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, the best way to get more fact checking into Did You Know is to set an example. We already have way more than enough volunteers for the task of ordering others to do fact checking, but not enough volunteers for actually doing it. If you were blocked only for pointing out errors or plagiarism, then of course that is an outrage. But since the block was apparently made for a private email it's your word against his, and in any case you haven't made it easy to research it. Art LaPella (talk) 01:12, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

No, and since you didn't, apparently, read the entire block record, this may be why these problems keep cropping up in DYK. Try rereading it, the entire thing. Then come back and personally insult and attack me for it. --Blechnic (talk) 04:07, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I reread it. A WP:ANI consensus considers your block to have been an overreaction, but it doesn't say you were blocked simply for reporting errors or plagiarism. Is there something else you wanted me to read? I'm puzzled by "insult and attack me for it", apparently referring to the block. I thought I was offering no opinion about the block, and recommending only that you help us fact check. Art LaPella (talk) 05:21, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, someone else posted this with your name under it, "But since the block was apparently made for a private email it's your word against his, and in any case you haven't made it easy to research it." That's your evaluation and opinion about my being blocked, you know, "your word against his" blah blah blah. You commented without bothering to read the entire thing, that seems to be a jump to give your opinion, which was essentially a negative comment about me. Whatever. If you don't want to give your opinion about something, don't. --Blechnic (talk) 05:42, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Translation: I give up! No one cares. They'd rather spend time looking for something, anything to attack me for, attack the messenger. If that wasn't the case you might actually have read the block log. --Blechnic (talk) 05:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

We need some sort of WikiProject:Did You Know? thing

I would agree that we need to ban DYKs from editors who have put up plagiarized articles more than once (It has happened). We need to keep a list somewhere, though, and maybe have a bot patrol the nominees for suggestions from such users.

A lot of the issues stem from the lack of any formal structure to the DYK page. There are currently maybe three or four users (myself included; anybody, even an anon, can verify the cited facts) who do about 90% of the fact checking (As such I vehemently disagree with the assertions that "DYKs are often wrong or plagiarized" without specific examples cited. I can look at almost any update and find two or three, at least, where I personally verified the hooks.

I really think we need some sort of WikiProject:Did You Know? to formalize and coordinate things (Another problem: There is no way, once a hook has gone on the Main Page, to find out who approved it short of paging through the history of T:TDYK. If we logged this information, we could also root out people who do shoddy verifying.

We also need to coordinate policy on what DYKs must contain (yes, we do reject shoddy articles that otherwise meet the criteria ... if it has a cleanup tag, forget it). I would like to see a requirement that a quote be included from a source that cannot be easily verified online, such as a book not (or not the pages quoted) covered by Google Books, or something behind a pay firewall (we have lots of British biographies that use the online Oxford Dictionary of National Biography as a source, something easily accessible to visitors at most British libraries but not to those of us logging in from outside Britain).

And other things. We are getting more than enough new hooks now; the days when the page was only updated once a day and we had to scrounge for hooks is gone. We can afford to be choosy, and decide how we're going to do it. Daniel Case (talk) 12:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The discussion seems to have split. See below. Carcharoth (talk) 14:07, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Strong Support For the most part, creating new WikiProjects is a bad idea in my opinion. This idea is different. We should set up a formal WikiProject so that all of the discussion could be centralized. We can discuss things that affect all DYKs. DYK has grown significantly over the last few years. Maybe we could find more interested contributors if we had a WikiProject. Royalbroil 17:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Some quick comments from me before I go on holiday:

1. "Yes" to a more formalised setup; a WikiProject sounds good. DYK has grown substantially and has become rather unstructured.
2. Source-checking in offline sources (whether books, journals or non-archived newspapers) is an inherent problem which needs some discussion and policy decisions. For my part, when providing a hook from one of my articles—many of which are sourced mostly from books—I try to double- or triple-cite it using online sources which corroborate it. Perhaps editors submitting offline-sourced hooks could be encouraged to try that? It would concern me if offline-sourced articles were discouraged, as many articles (and indeed types of article) are difficult to source by "online means".
3. Some editors have the ability to check facts cited from particular types of source; for example, I can check stuff from the ODNB using my library card, and potentially other British-based things. I used to be able to verify things from the National Register of Historic Places as well, but my Javascript thing seems to have scr*wed up (?). Perhaps regular fact-checkers (and I am willing to become one) could identify (maybe on a project page) any sources they have regular access to, so they can be a first point of contact when a hook sourced to one comes up?
4. We do indeed need to be more aggressive in spotting plagiarism, and decide what to do in grey areas such as copy-pasting from public domain text sources.
5. As alluded to by Daniel, it may need to be made clearer that the presence of certain tags on an article (such as cleanup, expansion etc.) precludes its use by DYK.

Just a few thoughts there, anyway. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 20:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia article traffic statistics

From a post above, I just found Wikipedia article traffic statistics. Is it possible to add such stats to the DYK notice? Instead of

On 24 June, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article subpersonalities, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

the notice would look something like:

On 24 June, 2008, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article subpersonalities, which you created or substantially expanded and was viewed 10,191 times. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

I was surprised to learn that such an article received so many hits and now am more motivated to list articles at DYK. I think adding the stats to the DYK posts would help out. The DYK notice on the article talk page can contain similar stats. Bebestbe (talk) 22:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

It's a nice idea, but as the credits are usually posted whilst the article is still on the main page, the stats wouldn't be complete. If we were to wait until the article was off the main page to give out the credits, then some editors would miss seeing their creations on the front page: I've had a complaint about this when I accidentally left someone out of a batch of credits. It also adds yet another step for the admin posting the update, and the process is time-consuming already. Having said that, the template could say "to see how many times your article has been viewed, click here" or something similar. I went back over a couple of my DYKs and was pleasantly surprised at the results! Bencherlite^Talk 05:54, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Multiple DYKs

Can an article be used for a DYK more than once, if it qualifies under both the new article and five-fold rules? JKBrooks85 (talk) 04:33, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

That would be mathematically interesting. 1.5k - 7.5k - 37.5k and 187.5 (omg, that would take a lot of work). That would be some super article. However, I don't know if it would be feasible (although I did expand Christopher Smart to 50k for a DYK). Ottava Rima (talk) 02:22, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

1.5 to 7.5 is quite feasible, as is, say, 4kb to 20 kb for a dedicated researcher. 7.5 to 37.5 would be difficult to do in five days, unless the material was pre-prepared, e.g. a university essay. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I was under the impression that an article can only be featured once as a DYK. Also expansion refers to actual text, not total length (so infobox code does not count, for example). Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 14:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Question

When are articles selected for DYK appearances on the main page? I don't understand this page, [3]. Is there a list of the next articles to appear? --Blechnic (talk) 04:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC) I see a lot that I could spend time looking at, but which ones should I bother with? I've studied famine economics, a requirement for Third World agricultural researchers, and mostly the Indian ones are the best researched from an economics perspective, and I've worked in an herbarium, I've probably read enough about middle Medieval popes to look at that one, I know a comparative lot about Sino-Nigerian relations because of the impact of the oil-wealth on Niger basin vegetation (maybe outside of my area, but better studied than further west), I know the North American coastal Indians somewhat, and I know who Curtis is, I've studied coffee production, I do know about Middle Eastern nature preserves and species, I read medical literature for a living and can check these articles. I don't understand how the selection process works, and what is going on on this page. I only want to spend time checking articles that will be on the front page--why not give people a chance to correct the plagiarisms and learn along the way, then reward them with their article being properly on the main page? Establish for the long run, plagiarized articles don't belong on the front page, and teach editors to do it correctly? But I have to understand what is going on. I would rather continue with African agriculture, but I am willing to check some of these. Which ones?!?! --Blechnic (talk) 05:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Check whichever ones you know anything about. Which ones are selected? Basically, if the article has been ticked as meeting the criteria (appropriate length, new creation or 5-fold expansion, interesting hook backed up by a reference with an inline citation in the article etc) it's highly likely to make it to the front page. As for when they're selected, the hooks are generally selected from the "expiring noms" section or the 5 days old section, and are selected to give a balance of articles on the main page (i.e. no complete sets of articles on minor Welsh dead clergymen (my speciality!)). The "next update" section is T:DYK/N. If you see an error on the main page, go to WP:ERRORS which is on lots of watchlists. Bencherlite^Talk 06:03, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I see a lot that I could spend time looking at, but which ones should I bother with?

If you're only going to "bother with" checking articles where you know something about the subject, go find something else to do (Update: Apparently you have). I used to be a newspaper copyeditor. When fresh copy is shoved in front of you, you can't say "This isn't my area". You get what you get. You figure out how to verify it, or they give the job to someone else who says they can.

In a typical tour through DYK, I will look at the articles most urgently in need of verification, that are either expiring or close to it. I will review them until I either reach the top of a particular date's new articles, or (more commonly) I get about half a dozen good hooks, enough to fill an entire new update if needed. As I've said elsewhere, I don't mark them as verified if the source is an offline book or something I cannot otherwise personally review. Those are usually taken on good faith when they're about to expire. Perhaps this creates plagiarism problems; as I've said I would really prefer that people submit a quote from the source. Not that that can't be faked, but it makes more work for a plagiarist and would certainly reduce the number of such submissions. If I do see that it's copied at some length from the source, I say so in the comment. If I find the hook is more or less writing a check the source can't cash, I say so, or modify the hook appropriately. If it's too short, the article lacks inline references or an unreliable source is used, it gets that little yellow circle with the X. Ditto if the hook fact isn't stated explicitly in the article. If it uses a non-English shource from a language I haven't really studied, I either try to figure the language out if it's related to one I'm familiar with, try on online translator or just ask for someone who is familiar with, say, Norwegian or Mandarin to read it. But I check anything that comes my way. We ask for cited references; anyone should be able to check them regardless of familiarity with the subject. Daniel Case (talk) 13:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you know how impossibly laid out that page is. I don't know what is going on with the articles. I don't want to work on ones that have been rejected. I have no idea what "possible vote" means. As far as I can tell, there are no possible DYKs in the current two "expiring noms." So, then, it's not updated? --Blechnic (talk) 06:19, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully I can complement Bencherlite's response with some brief answers. I sympathise, since the list of suggestions on T:TDYK does not work like any other Wikipedia page I know of.

Did you know?
Introduction and rules
Introduction	WP:DYK
General discussion	WT:DYK
Guidelines	WP:DYKCRIT
Reviewer instructions	WP:DYKRI
Nominations
Nominate an article	WP:DYKCNN
Awaiting approval	WP:DYKN
Approved	WP:DYKNA
April 1 hooks	WP:DYKAPRIL
Holding area	WP:SOHA
Preparation
Preps and queues	T:DYK/Q
Prepper instructions	WP:DYKPBI
Admin instructions	WP:DYKAI
Main Page errors	WP:ERRORS
History
Statistics	WP:DYKSTATS
Archived sets	WP:DYKA
Just for fun
Monthly wraps	WP:DYKW
Awards	WP:DYKAWARDS
Userboxes	WP:DYKUBX
Hall of Fame	WP:DYK/HoF
List of users ...
... by nominations	WP:DYKNC
... by promotions	WP:DYKPC
Administrative
Scripts and bots	WP:DYKSB
On the Main Page	T:DYK
Main Page errors	WP:ERRORS
To ping the DYK admins	{{DYK admins}}

1. When are articles selected for DYK appearances on the main page?

   After about five days

2. Is there a list of the next articles to appear?

   On T:DYK/N (the next update page)

3. I don't want to work on ones that have been rejected.

   The X symbol means it is rejected.

4. Plagiarized articles don't belong on the front page

   Agreed

5. I only want to spend time checking articles that will be on the front page

   If it is 5 days old or expiring, and it doesn't have , then there is a very good chance it will be on the front page in the next 24 hours or less.

Hope that helps you and fellow newcomers. --Hroðulf (or Hrothulf) (Talk) 09:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that helps a bit, but one reason it was no help before is that every time I clicked on T:DYK/N, there was just a blank template waiting to be filled in. There are actually a couple of articles on it now. --Blechnic (talk) 04:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, the article on Frank Leslie Walcott, the second sentence, although referenced, is copied and pasted exactly from the book it is taken from. "He was the principal organizer of the labour movement of Barbados and a major figure in stimulating participation in the nation's political process." Except for the spelling of "labour," which is "labor" in the original. Now, I suggest that the rest of the article will be a similar problem, so where do I report this now, since it's not on the main page yet? --Blechnic (talk) 04:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Posting here is good. If the article is still listed on the noms page, you can comment under the proposed hook. If it's on the Next Update page (as in this case), you can pull the nom back to the nominations page and procedd with a comment under it. As to the article itself, there are recommended procedures at Wikipedia:Plagiarism#When you find directly copied material. Nice catch! --EncycloPetey (talk) 04:27, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

In addition, I can't find anything about him playing cricket. There is a very famous Barbadian cricketer named "Leslie Walcott," but there are no returns other than this Wikipedia article about Frank Leslie Walcott and cricket umpire. I don't have access to the listed journal, but I'm concerned the hook is wrong. I'll try what you suggest, Petey. --04:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Again, because this copy paste has been referenced, Wikipedians seem to think they don't have to rewrite or synthesize the information obtained from other sources, so, apparently copyvio or any solutions on direct copy, don't apply. It needs quotation marks--it was not written by Wikipedia editors, and I'm blue in the face trying to convince Wikipedia editors that they shouldn't try to take credit for other people's words. --Blechnic (talk) 04:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with you strongly about honoring the source by quoting and referencing, and never taking silent credit for the work of someone else. However, as someone who has been teaching for years, I can't say I'm at all surprised by the severity of the problem here, since I've seen it firsthand. An alarming percentage of America's youth just don't get it. --EncycloPetey (talk) 04:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The other article on the next in line template, on Marion Jorgensen, has these lines copied and pasted directly from this source.[4]

They had two sons, Donald Bren, chairman of The Irvine Company in Newport Beach, CA and Peter Bren, a senior partner with KBS Investors of New York City...

Bundles For Britain evolved into the United States Naval Aide Auxiliary.

The Jorgensens were among the social elite of Los Angeles.

After serving with distinction on the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, Mrs. Jorgensen was honored … with election to Life Director.

--Blechnic (talk) 05:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

This points to the problem I mentioned elsewhere with citing books where the source material is not available online. I have asked people for quotes. I normally do not mark such an article as verified because to do so would be untruthful as I have not actually reviewed the source material. But based on AGF we often let it on to the Main Page. If we required people to use the quote= parameter in the citation template, we could stop a little more plagiarism. Daniel Case (talk) 13:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Frank Leslie Walcott, the sentence was absolutely not taken word-for-word from the source. The source reads "...the principal organizer of the labour movement of Barbados and a major figure in stimulating mass participation in politics." while the article reads "...the principal organizer of the labor movement of Barbados and a major figure in stimulating participation in the nation's political process." Could this be reworded a bit more? Sure, and I'll do that when I'm finished here, but I greatly resent being accused of plagiarism and not even being notified by my accuser so that I might defend myself. Furthermore, the journal from which the cricket info is taken from is available on Google Scholar, though unless I'm mistaken a source's online availability is completely irrelevant. faithless (^speak) 05:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have re-written the sentence to read, "He played a key role in organizing the Barbados labour movement and was a major figure in stimulating participation in the nation's political process." faithless (^speak) 05:24, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

So, it absolutely was taken word for word, except for the spelling of labour, as I stated? And, guess what, it doesn't matter if it's on-line, what matters is if it says what you claim, so I will settle for the sentence from the journal, pasted here, the sentence that describes him as a cricket umpire, and the full name used in the article. Thanks. --Blechnic (talk) 05:29, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, you did both articles? Sorry, the words above are copies and pastes from the source you took them from, the OC Register article. I see you cleverly moved a word or two around in the first, but if you spent the amount of time you spent denying it, simply rewriting the article in your own words, I bet the latter would take less time. Don't claim others' unique phrases as your own for Wikipedia, please. Absolutely were. I totally resent having to take time to notify plagiarizers. --Blechnic (talk) 05:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, look, I have held my tongue for a day or two, but I'm afraid it's time to say this. Blechnic, constructive comments and assistance are welcome on this project, but after you accused administrators the other day of blocking you just for bringing up the issue of plagiarism, I found that rather hard to believe so I went back and checked out the relevant diffs. Having done that, I spent some time going back through the rest of your edit history. What I discovered is a user who is chronically abrasive, who engages in constant put-downs of other editors, who bombards other users with scorn and sarcasm, and whose only apparent episodes of civility are when others lay down and agree with everything you say.

So I really think it's time to put you on notice. You need to lose the attitude, or you are going to face further sanctions. Not for blowing the whistle on plagiarism, but for chronic incivility and harassment of other users on this project. And believe me, next time you make an appearance at AN/I, the result is not likely to be as agreeable for you as it was on the previous occasion. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 06:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Wow. So to you "mass participation in politics" and "participation in the nation's political process" are the exact same words, are they? Perhaps you should take the time to finish reading a sentence before you make such outrageous claims. Furthermore, falsely accusing someone (repeatedly) of plagiarism is such a gross violation of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL that it shouldn't have to be brought up, but perhaps you're unfamiliar with guidelines and policies, so no harm done. Oh, you'll settle for it? How kind of you, oh Benevolent One! Frank Walcott, head of the Barbados Workers' Union, and a former first-class cricket umpire, condemned the decision of Sobers on the grounds that he... I have no idea what your second paragraph is about at all. And just for what it's worth, mocking the typographical choices of others doesn't become you. Thanks, faithless (^speak) 06:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Good job ignoring all of the following ones. My bad on that one, my right on the other 3. That's three strikes. --Blechnic (talk) 06:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

So using three of the same words (participation, in, nation) is tantamount to plagiarism? Thank you for clarifying - that is so laughably preposterous that I see this isn't worth my time (especially since you apparently have a history of such ridiculous behavior). faithless (^speak) 06:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Silly me, I should know better than to take your word for something. "Nation" and "nation's" are, indeed, different words. But because I used the words "participation" and "in" (seriously, in!?), I'm guilty of plagiarizing? faithless (^speak) 06:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow! Don't worry, the threat got rid of me, no more need to keep trying this! Wow!!!!!!! Stunning!!!!--Blechnic (talk) 06:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Off watch list, bye bye, copy and paste all you want, safely! --Blechnic (talk) 06:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course you must put me on notice, I may find more plagiarized articles on DYK. It's far too easy to do so, and no one wants to know. I'm used to being attacked for it by now, and I have fully adopted the proper Wikipedia editor mode that I have learned from other editors: attack if you disagree, just like you are doing to me now. Instead of looking for problems in DYK. It's no wonder the editors don't have time to find the problems, they're too busy trying to get rid of the messengers. And all this time, Gatoclass, I've been reading the DYK articles, because I thought you really cared about its quality. Yawn. Love the AN/I threat, too, by the way. It's going to be worse than the last set of attacks and threats? Again, thanks for the threat. --Blechnic (talk) 06:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Wickipedia should have a whistleblower civility law, because that's really what this is about, no whistleblower can ever survive on Wikipedia, because they will be relentlessly hounded by everyone in every way. I love this, how I'm reading for copyvios and Gatoclass is carefully scrutinizing my record to find a personal attack angle on me. Why not read the articles, Gatoclass, as carefully as you claim to have read my edit record? --Blechnic (talk) 06:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

You have raised legitimate questions, and we probably do need to have a broader discussion of plagiarism on DYK, but what we don't need is a constant barrage of sarcasm from editors who apparently get their jollies from humiliating others. Thanks, Gatoclass (talk) 06:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

It appears that user Blechnic has retired from the project after I threatened to take him to AN/I for breaches of wp:civ. So I guess it's business as usual at DYK for the time being. However, I do think the issue of plagiarism on DYK (and let's face it, on the project as a whole) is legitimate, and I'd really like to get hold of some free plagiarism software if anyone knows of any. Gatoclass (talk) 08:05, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Just one last point to be clear: you threatened me for finding plagiarisms, and that was the threat: you would and will accuse me of anything in order to stop my pointing out the dreadful state of this project. You don't want to hear it, or know it. You would rather spend your time and efforts finding something against me than working to find the plagiarisms. I'm not leaving because I'm worried about an incivility accusations, what could be more incivil then be found guilty of claiming another's work as your own and then passing out rewards for it? I'm leaving because Wikipedia honors copying from others and claiming it as Wikipedia's own.

I just found out about the Triple Crown award. I told you there was a reward for DYK. It's very obvious to an outsider that this is the result of a frantic contest, a quest for prizes, not quality. Do you want to guess how many plagiarisms I found in Triple Crown Award winners so far? And, interesting enough, not just in DYKs. a couple in GAs. So, at least you're in good company on Wikipedia.

You don't need software to find plagiarisms, you need English language reading skills and familiarity with encyclopedias. I write lay articles on technical subjects for a living. I read encyclopedia articles and similar articles in journals and books that are on technical subjects for a general audience as part of my job. After the first dozen or more DYK plagiarisms that I spotted, I just started picking them out, left and right. The first ones I found I knew instantly they were plagiarized. I only found two articles that I didn't think had plagiarisms in them, and these in the last 24-48 hours, and they both held up to a quick scrutiny. Every other article I reviewed may have taken some time, but it wasn't really that hard. Just time to find where the lines were copied and pasted from. It's so obvious anyone who spent any time learning the skill of writing can find them. And, you have some more waiting in the queue.

It's not a threat of my incivility, it's a threat to me that if I keep bringing up the problems I will be banned--effectively that is a ban, because I can write, and I find it disgusting that someone would take the work of another, claim it as their own, then show it off for a cyberspace award to their assumed name.

--Blechnic (talk) 08:26, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I didn't threaten you for "finding plagiarisms", I threatened to take you to AN/I for your attitude, where the community at large could make a judgement. The issue of plagiarism is quite separate from that. People would respond a lot more positively to your concerns if you actually showed a willingness to work constructively with others to get things fixed instead of using the mistakes you find to fashion a stick to beat other contributors over the head with. I'd like to think your attitude genuinely stems from a concern over standards, but a review of your edit history indicates to me a user who is motivated at least in part by malicious glee in finding fault with others. I suppose it's possible that in the circles where you normally move the tone of discussion might be a great deal more robust, so that you see nothing wrong with your sarcasm, but wikipedia is different and a premium is put on civility here. If you can't engage civilly with others, you simply don't belong here, it's as simple as that. So ultimately the ball is in your court, if you want to engage in a positive and helpful way, of course your contribution is welcome, but if you just want to spend half your time playing one-upmanship games, I'm afraid you've chosen the wrong venue. Perhaps you could benefit from reading the essay Don't be a dick. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 09:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I've left a note on Gatoclass's talk page giving some of the background here. Blechnic has the interests of the project at heart here. Please look at the problems Blechnic has found and don't get distracted by personality conflicts. Carcharoth (talk) 09:53, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism discussion

Since the issue of plagiarism has come up here recently, I thought those following this page might be interested in joining or reading the discussions at Wikipedia talk:Plagiarism. Carcharoth (talk) 09:55, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism in DYKs - one major problem

In many of the cases being discussed as plagiarism in DYKs, it's actually rather hard to see how someone could check the source confirmed the fact without seeing that it was plagiarised. I think that the reviewers being aware plagiarism is a problem, and being aware they must point it out if there are substantial similarities would go a long way to solving the problem. For instance, while investigating CarolSpears' plagiarism, I came across a few of the DYK contributions, and many of them were actually taken from the middle of copy-paste paragraphs.

Why didn't the reviewer point this out? There's no reason to think that the reviewers were stupid or acted inappropriately - maybe they didn't really look at how it was described in the article, just the source, and thereby missed that the text was substantially similar. Maybe they were just too trusting. Maybe they noticed it, but presumed it was the only incident of it in the article (this last, by the way, is almost never true). If we can figure out why the plagiarism was ignored or missed when checking the facts, maybe we can correct for these oversights and catch more problems in future. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

We didn't "point it out", obviously, because we didn't see the plagiarism.

Perhaps I should explain a little about how DYK works. Users submit hooks for their nominations, and reviewers then check the hook statements to ensure they are factual and correct. We don't generally go looking for plagiarism because that would add exponentially to the amount of time spent, and even just checking the hooks is very time-consuming. To give you an example, the last three updates I prepared (eight to ten hooks apiece) took 60 minutes, 90 minutes and three hours to prepare respectively. I am not being paid for this work, I am a volunteer here like everyone else, and there are obvious limits to the amount of time I am willing/able to invest in this project.

In addition to the hook statement checking, I do of course do a basic scan of the article, to ensure there are no obvious problems of POV, bad writing, suspected plagiarism and so on. But if I am now going to be expected to thoroughly compare every article submitted to every available reference in each article, the time will increase exponentially and the job will become not only a great deal more onerous, but virtually impossible. In short, we essentially have to rely on the honesty and good faith of our contributors. Either that or we will have to radically reduce the number of hooks featured, to perhaps one update per day. That will mean, for one thing, a lot less people getting encouragement for writing new articles, which is what DYK is supposed to be about. It will also mean, I think, that some of the current managers of DYK will have to reconsider their commitment, because I for one am not sure I want to spend hours every day combing through articles trying to find possible examples of plagiarism.

Apart from which, I'm not sure if all the extra effort would be worth the result anyway. The fact is that over 1,000 new articles are added to wikipedia every day, only a tiny handful of which are submitted to DYK. Even if we managed to catch half the plagiarism in DYK (which is doubtful, given that half or more of the submissions rely on offline sources which cannot be checked) it won't make the slightest dent in the amount of plagiarism being submitted to wikipedia as a whole. So the first question I think we need to ask ourselves is, will finding a somewhat greater percentage of plagiarism on DYK be worth all the extra effort? Will it be worth the loss of rewards that we are currently able to distribute? These are some of the issues we would need to consider I think. Gatoclass (talk) 13:48, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Possibly some people think that appearing in DYK is also some kind of article validation. I agree that DYK is not and never has been a form of article validation, but that needs to be made clear. The concern comes because it seems like there is a review process here, when in fact there isn't. And as far as encouraging new contributions goes, we need to encourage not just more, but the right sort of contributions. And yes, more editors are needed to check for plagiarism. User:Blechnic was good at doing that. Carcharoth (talk) 14:01, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

New editors need to check anything, factual verification or expansion etc. Yesterday, I noticed that Yared was not expanded fivefold--and that one appeared on the Main Page. This is a serious problem, how dysfunctional the DYK area is. I'm an Editorofthewiki^{[citation needed]} 14:11, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The DYK process is designed to check the one or two facts submitted for the hook, the article length and whether it is new enough and is otherwise something we would link to from the Main Page. Nothing less, nothing more. If the process of verifying sources uncovers plagiarism (and it has, more times than Blechnic ever gave it credit for) then it does. Newpage patrol is the place to catch plagiarism; not DYK (although it's a useful backup, but not by design). We also have CorenSearchBot to look for cut-and-paste articles. If Blechnic had been more reasonable, he would have volunteered to be a plagiarism reviewer on everything, not just the stuff he felt he had expertise in and could sufficiently lower himself to do. We could use more reviewers, for sure. Daniel Case (talk) 14:38, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Surely Blechnic's whole point is that we need to expect the process to do more before we put links to articles on the main page. Saying "This isn't DYK's problem" is not useful or correct. It is DYK's problem. 86.44.16.82 (talk) 16:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Different people participate in DYK in different ways and for different reasons. In the case of Blechnic's concerns, the solution is rather simple, at least in principle. We just need some participants in DYK who check nominated articles for their cited hook and for plagiarism well before the hook is selected to appear on the main page. We already have an alert and commenting system in place, we just need people who are dedicated and skilled at performing this specialized function. If we can gather a handful of participants who appreciate the need for this checking and are willing to do it, then the problem is solved. As usual, we just need more editors willing to help out. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:20, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Solution for delays in DYK updates

I've been thinking about this issue as I have to watch helplessly as the hours tick by before an update is made - many a times the list of articles to go up on the main page is left incomplete while the delay builds. It may seem an issue that is irritating but not deserving any particular action, but I have come up with 2 proposals:

1. My first proposal - to have a system like WP:RFR, where an editor with a history of good contributions of writing DYKs, reviewing nominations and selecting nominations for the update template, be granted the tool of updating the template when the time comes. If a person works diligently on DYK jobs, you can trust him/her with this button.
2. My second idea, and obviously the most prudent and swiftest for implementation, is to design a template akin to {{Vandalism information}} or a traffic signal, which has a (1) Green light for normal status, 5 hours before the next update to (2) Yellow light for 1 hour, the 6th hour before the slated update - indicating that adding nominations for the next update must be completed soon and (3) Red light - to begin once the current time passes the slated time for updating. This template should be displayed on all pages and sub-pages of T:DYK and even places like WP:ANI/WP:AN, where it may be guaranteed to come to the attention of several administrators.

I'd like to have opinions of everyone regarding the good/bad qualities and possible implementation of these ideas. I think these are straight-forward solutions to a simple but irritating problem. Vishnava _talk 14:36, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think any sort of page-specific admin powers are needed. The point of having the next update ready to go when the clock template turns yellow and then red is to allow any admin to do it, not just the DYK admins, who may be offline or busy.

But we do need some sort of notice on T:TDYK as to how full T:DYK/N is. Yes, you can check yourself. But not everyone makes the effort. Daniel Case (talk) 14:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to be clear, are you saying you're in favor of the DYK warning template idea? Vishnava _talk 15:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that repeating the 'hours since last update' information elsewhere on the DYK pages would be a good idea, along with a count of how full T:DYK/N is (if there's some simple way to do so that won't get out of synch with the actual template, as manually updating it might well). I don't think WP:AN or WP:ANI are the best places for it though - I anticipate people worrying about the precedent of starting to fill up the AN with all sorts of stuff that only a small fraction of admins are interested in. Vishnava, did you have a design in mind for a warning? I think the more similar it is to the current colour-coding on Template:DYK-Refresh the better. Perhaps we could add it to the top of Template:DYKbox?Olaf Davis | Talk 15:58, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

As you suggest, I like the idea of color-coding the Template:DYK-Refresh, but I was thinking of reduced-sized version Template:Vandalism Information that we could attach to any of the existing templates or post independently. The key need for such a solution is that DYK is part of the main page and thus necessary to maintain properly and seriously - so to that effect, it would be appropriate to post it on WP:AN/WP:ANI. Vishnava _talk 16:31, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The 2nd idea for warning signals seems to be a good idea that doesn't require any policy change or so - why don't we go ahead and create the template and give it a trial run? Vishnava _talk 17:03, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Another thing to keep in mind while designing this template is that some admins and interested parties would like to have this new status template on their user page. How about having a 7 color scheme on the template that goes 1) green (>5 hr left) 2) green (>4 hr) 3) green (>3 hr) 4) green (>2 hr) 5) yellow (>1 hr left) 6) orange (in the final hour), 7) red (overdue). Royalbroil 17:34, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Check it out- I've created 3 test model template (albeit rudimentary; feel free to improve design): {{DYKUpdateRED}}, {{DYKUpdateGreen}}, {{DYKUpdateYellow}}

Vishnava _talk 04:03, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought that you would be using the number and color systems from {{Vandalism information}}, plus the timing scheme from {{DYK-Refresh}} to come up with a nice hybrid. This isn't what I was thinking about. I doubt I'd be able to work on what I'm thinking about for several days. Royalbroil 12:22, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Why does {{DYKUpdate}} include links to the three different coloured templates regardless of the current level and colour? Is that meant to happen?

Also, it sounds like we have some disagreement over the colour scheme to use (traffic light; based on {{Vandalism information}}; or based on {{DYK-Refresh}}). I favour the third for consistency within DYK - what does everyone else think? Olaf Davis | Talk 14:31, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed that Vishnava's template had been put on Template talk:Did you know. I've taken the liberty of removing it, for two reasons. First we should probably sort out the colour and the question I raised about the template linking to all possible versions of itself before putting it live. But besides that TT:DYK already includes the current {{DYK-Refresh}} which indicates whether the update is late. Maybe moving it to the top would be useful for alerting admins to a delay as soon as they come to the page, but I don't see why we'd need two templates giving the exact same information on the same page. Olaf Davis | Talk 14:41, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

(actually, Royalbroil and BorgQueen beat me to it and removed the template while I was writing the above) Olaf Davis | Talk 14:45, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Answers:

1. To Royalbroil and Olaf Davis - the design of the current template, etc. is just a rudimentary test to get the ball rollin'. I am a novice at creating templates from scratch so its not like its permanent or good enough. I like RB's hybrid idea. And yes - as RB says, I'd like something modeled on {{Vandalism Information}}.
2. I think there is a difference between {{DYK-Refresh}} and {{DYKUpdate}} in the sense that like {{Vandalism Information}}, it is meant to be proliferated across user pages of concerned users and admins and all relevant project pages - the color bands are also more eye-catching and informative; take RB's suggestion of a 7-color template, which gives an hour-by-hour status; the RED alert warning is to be triggered 5-10 minutes before the next update, so the color-coding can be clearly interpreted. An AMBER Alert can be used if the template is half-empty with less than 5 minutes to go.
3. We can also add new features like actually reporting how much of the next update template is filled with entries in the final hour (yellow), how many noms in the section of the last expired day and the current day are or so interested editors can fix the noms and update them swiftly. It is also a kind of warning that if there aren't enough confirmed noms, we need to hurry up and check the rest.
4. Make it more interactive - an important objective is that it should get the attention of those admins who aren't regulars at DYK, since those regulars are the ones absent and causing delays. It should tell them exactly what is needed, especially as you can't make the next update if the template is half-filled. Ordinary users helping out at DYK should also get to know that the next update needs to be filled with confirmed noms and thus fill up shortages ahead of time. {{Vandalism Information}} fulfills a similar purpose in that a level-3 or level-2 rise will alert all available RC patrollers that they need to switch their Huggle on and do their rounds. A level-4 or level-5 status can allow people to relax a bit and work at convenience.

There is an issue with the current {{DYK-Refresh}} as it has proven ineffective in getting admins to update DYK on time. If we can upgrade the template with extra features and customize it for widespread use, well that's the objective of this discussion. I have no issue with deleting or completely revamping the templates I created in order to upgrade the existing ones or coming up with different solutions. My objective is to find a way to get rid of the confounded and irritating delays of 2-3 hours - its not serious if it were just 10-15 minute delays. With a 1,000 + admins and 3-5 being added each week, these 2-3 hour delays are simply unacceptable. Vishnava _talk 15:33, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Well put. I wish I knew more about programming templates. I looked at it and I don't know enough to do what I can see in my mind. I hope that I was clear that I am thinking that the template would go off of the reset time from the last update time. How could the template figure out the status of how full the next update is? Royalbroil 16:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Well we need minimum 6 noms, so I think it is possible to calculate from how many vacant {{*mp}} spaces there are. I think this is possible in an automated template. Vishnava _talk 16:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• Question there is a bit of confusion as to who exactly can design the template we desire. Does anyone know of an editor we can approach for this? Vishnava _talk 16:24, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

More on DYK view stats

A few days ago, I suggested giving recognition to DYK hooks that draw the most views. After all, the goal of DYK is to draw attention to newly written or expanded articles.User:Hassocks5489 have taken a shot at creating a template that could be used to track the top hooks on a monthly basis, giving recognition and encouragement to those whose hooks are most successful. It currently is updated through the hooks of June 23. If you want to take a look or help updating it, here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Cbl62/sandbox3 And if people think this is useful, maybe we could start doing it each month.Cbl62 (talk) 17:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

How does the tool determine the number of views while the article is on DYK? The search tools availabel to a user display only daily views, without indicating times. --EncycloPetey (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a comment. Look at this link. I think it's pretty obvious what views were a result of being on the Main Page. Thingg^⊕⊗ 17:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Like User:Thingg said, the spike when an article goes onto DYK are dramatic. I've used the page view count for the day it goes on DYK and also the next day; that's because DYKs sometimes span two days.Cbl62 (talk) 19:40, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

We can't narrow it down to less than a day, so the figures recorded in the table are the total for the day(s) on which the article was featured on the main page; so in practice every article will have its total overstated by a slight amount. Rounding to the nearest hundred, as we do, should help to reduce the impact of this overstatement. Hassocks5489 (tickets please!) 20:22, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Your table does give some interesting insights. I am not surprised that the Pakistani actress hook is on the top of the list, but I didn't expect hooks about Esperanto profanity or Subpersonalities would have drawn so many views. As you said somewhere, we clearly don't always need "sex and guns" to get readers' attention, it seems. --BorgQueen (talk) 06:26, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Maria Kotarba

The image illustrating her, per this page, is not public domain. WilliamH (talk) 16:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I replaced the image. --BorgQueen (talk) 16:25, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

• After having trouted myself, I also moved this to the correct section, but thanks for fixing it. As just a little heads up should similar images be suggested again, I would suggest that editors take what the Auschwitz Museum, Yad Vashem and the USHMM say on images with a pinch of salt, because in my experience, they are notoriously poor at observing image rights. For example, Yad Vashem labels the Auschwitz Album public domain, and the Auschwitz-Birkenau Museum label the construction album public domain, even when both remain copyrighted in the European Union and United States(!). A good linchpin to go by is that in a nutshell, all German images from this era aren't public domain. Cheers. WilliamH (talk) 16:32, 28 June 2008 (UTC)