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WP:NEWCSD

Contributors frequently propose new (or expansions of existing) criteria for speedy deletion. Please bear in mind that CSD criteria require careful wording, and in particular, need to be

Objective: Most reasonable people should be able to agree whether a page meets the criterion. Often this requires making the criterion very specific.
Uncontestable: It must be the case that almost all pages that could be deleted using the rule, should be deleted, according to consensus. CSD criteria should cover only situations where there is a strong precedent for deletion. Remember that a rule may be used in a way you don't expect, unless you word it carefully.
Frequent: Speedy deletion is intended primarily as a means of reducing load on other deletion methods such as Wikipedia:Articles for deletion and Wikipedia:Proposed deletion. These processes are more discriminating because they treat articles case-by-case, and involve many points of view; CSD sacrifices these advantages in favor of speed and efficiency. If a situation arises only rarely, it's probably easier, simpler, and fairer to delete it with one of the other methods instead. This also keeps CSD as simple and easy to remember as possible, and avoids instruction creep.
Nonredundant: If the deletion can be accomplished using a reasonable interpretation of an existing rule, just use that. If this application of that rule is contested, consider discussing and/or clarifying it. New rules should be proposed only to cover situations that cannot be speedily deleted otherwise.

If you do have a proposal that you believe passes these guidelines, please feel free to propose it on this discussion page. Be prepared to offer evidence of these points and to refine your criterion if necessary. Consider explaining how it meets these criteria when you propose it. Do not, on the other hand, add it unilaterally to the CSD page.

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Userpage exception for G1 and G3

The policy gives a userpage exception for CSD G2 (test page). It should also give an exception for G1 and G3, in agreement with practice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.49.7.125 (talk) 23:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

not G3 and dubiously G1. A p. devoted to what amounts to vandalism can and has been done in user space. DGG (talk) 07:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with DGG on G3 but it might be a consideration for G1. After all, userspace is a place for testing and sandboxing amongst other things and what is not making sense now might make sense if the user has some time to work on it. Deleting stuff under G1 in userspace seems like a stupid idea to me. G3 implies bad faith by the user and if they are using userspace nonsense as vandalism, we can still G3 it. But if they are acting in good faith, it would be silly to delete such pages and risk alienating a good-faith contributor. As with certain "secret page" deletions, the harm that using G1 in userspace can cause is much higher than the benefits of deleting a page noone cares about anyway. Regards So Why 07:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's much of a need for this. Vandalism is vandalism anywhere (and in the case that there's a really good reason, I'm sure no admin would refuse a reasonable undeletion request when appropriate), and I suspect most admins would give more latitude about userspace pages than those elsewhere. Stifle (talk) 13:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If a user wants to create a userpage full of patent nonsense or faux vandalism, that's their prerogative. If ANOTHER user creates someone elses userpage as vandalism or nonsense, then that is G3. Common sense prevails... –xeno (talk) 13:35, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wish that was true but recent experience with MZMcBride's deletions tells us that not all admins have that view about userspace and some like to use G1 as a carte blanche; so I don't think adding an exception to G1 would hurt but might be useful. As you point out, it's still G3 if someone else posts nonsense in your userspace so it would not really change anything but make a clear statement that you are allowed to post nonsense in your own userspace. So Why 13:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Added to G1. –xeno (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This thread is patent nonsense. We're not a test wiki or a pastebin. It's as simple as that. --MZMcBride (talk) 21:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, not everyone sees things in black and white like you do, MZMcBride. Is it okay if some consensus is formed?--Fabrictramp | talk to me 21:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As difficult as it is to register an account and create a user page with "poop" and then leave forever, I see no reason to memorialize such nonsense. Sure, look for the elusive beast known as consensus all you'd like to, but throwing common sense out the window in favor of 'zomg policy' is unacceptable. --MZMcBride (talk) 05:23, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

EPIC WIN FOR ME!

You think I care whether some dopey policy page contains a userpage exception or not? I got you guys to fight over nothing! :) :) :) LOL 129.49.7.125 (talk) 20:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, the simple pleasures. –xeno (talk) 20:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addition to F8

I'd like to add this to the bottom of F8 -

Note: talk pages of images deleted for this reason are not automatically subject to criterion G8 above, as the talk page is not moved to Commons, and as the image was not deleted for a violation of policy or per a deletion discussion. Technically this is still a talk page for an existent file.

Thoughts? ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 17:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why shouldn't they be G8 deleted? If the talk page contains important content, it should be moved to Commons along with the file and its history; if not, it should be deleted as having no utility to en.wiki. (also)Happy‑melon 17:48, 19 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They shouldn't automatically be deleted. Some have project tags, or deletion discussions that are specific to WP. Besides, by that logic all talk pages should be automatically deleted if they do not have "important" content. G8 for talk pages is not about utility as much as it is about propriety. If we decide an article does not belong here then certainly the talk page does not. These images weren't "deleted", they were "moved". And honestly I don't see the point in deleting them without a specific reason, they will still be taking up the same space on the server forever. I don't care all that much, but it does seem to go against the original purpose. ▫ JohnnyMrNinja 05:54, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The perception of some admins notwithstanding, none of the CSD criteria describe situations where pages are automatically deleted; if they did, we wouldn't need admins. And you do realise that G8 already has an exception for "pages useful to the project", including an explicit example of "images pages or talk pages for images that exist on Wikimedia Commons"?? Happy‑melon 19:46, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

CSD vs notability

Simple question, because I see these types of arguments in AFDs as well as reasons CSDs and PRODs are challenged: Does the existence of notability trump the CSD criteria? I understood that it doesn't. MuZemike 00:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which CSD criteria? For example, I'd say it trumps A7, because if the person meets the notability requirement, it becomes an editing matter not a deletion matter. (In other words, we just need to rewrite the article to explicitly say why they're important). But it certainly wouldn't trump copyvio.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:13, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(after edit conflict) Notability pretty clearly trumps WP:CSD#A7, because that explicitly says that it is a lower standard than notability, and there are other criteria that couldn't possibly be met by an page that shows notability, such as G1, G2, A1 and A3, but I don't see how notability can trump other criteria such G10 or G12. Phil Bridger (talk) 00:19, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry. Besides the obvious A7. I should have clarified. MuZemike 00:28, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, stuff like G10, G11, G12, even A3 (i.e. a page on a notable subject but is nothing but a linkfarm, copyvio, spam, attack page, etc.). MuZemike 00:30, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My personal take is that the copyvio and attack page should be deleted (or revisions deleted selectively from the history, as needed). Linkfarm, advert, spam etc could be rewritten -- often I'll take a chainsaw to the thing and just leave a sentence or two, if that's all that's good. So I'm a little more reluctant to delete those.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Fabrictramp: If you know it's notable, cut it down to stub size instead of deleting. So Why 20:38, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does not - I'd argue that notable topics should be added to Suggested articles when they are deleted, so we don't forget to re-create them later with proper content. Dcoetzee 07:06, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification - CSD A7

A speedy deletion request was recently declined by an admin as inapplicable to churches.

As is often the case, the article in question, St. Thomas of Villanova Church, is about a congregation and not about a building. In fact, there was never any mention of a building in the entire article history. Therefore the "church" here is a group of people, and therefore criterion A7 applies without further clarification. But when I pointed this out to the admin, he sticked to his guns.

There are plenty of instances (too numerous to list, as a matter of fact), where the word "church" refers to the group of people that occupies the building, and not to the building itself. Also, there are many churches (congregations, that is) that don't even have a building. Also, wherever the word "church" is used in the Bible, it never refers to a building, and exclusively refers to a group of people. For a building, the word "synagogue" is used if applicable.

Do we really need to have anything added to criterion A7 to clarify this? Must we add "churches, when the article is about a congregation"? -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 20:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: If, by the time you enter this discussion, the AfD has been closed as delete on St. Thomas of Villanova Church, you may still look at it in my userspace. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 21:05, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a bit of a sticky subject but I could see how a "church group" (not a building) would fall under A7 as an "organization". but I wouldn't fault SoWhy for declining it, if he wasn't sure. –xeno (talk) 21:57, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- Indeed, I wouldn't blame him. Given that he is from Germany, I would expect that his mother tongue is German. In that language, a clear-cut distinction is made between the words "Gemeinde" and "Kirche", both of which translate in English as "church". As there are many English-speaking non-church-goers that cannot visualize this distinction, how much more should we expect that some foreign-language speakers will not have made that same distinction when reading something in English, in fact especially when their mother tongue does make the distinction. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 22:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article gives a pretty precise location, and says "a school was built on the property in 1962", so it is pretty clearly not only about the congregation but about a place. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:29, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, but the article mentions only the location of the building - not its size, architectural style, etc. In essence, it only states that the congregation does own a building for its gatherings (and other buildings for other purposes). As far as I can tell, restaurants can be tagged {{db-corp}} yet they are buildings too. -- Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 03:50, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I said in the AfD, I really think both sides of the argument have merit in this case - it is indeed correct that a congregation is a "group" rather than a "building" and hence logically applicable to A7, but when the article mentions a location and a date, it's certainly suggesting that a building is involved too. Speedy deletion really should be for deletions that no reasonable, uninvolved Wikipedian should consider incorrect - the very existence of this argument suggests that for this particular category of article that may not be the case. ~ mazca ^t|c 12:19, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Church can indeed refer to a group and a building but if the article focuses on the group and doesn't mention anything specific about the building (even something simple as 'historic' or 'landmark') but merely refers to a bare location or place, I wouldn't see a problem in invoking A7. While WP:CHURCH is not a guideline, it proposed "The congregation building has particular architectural and/or historic significance." as notability criterion, so I' d say that that an article should at least indicate that there is a chance that this applies and mereley having property wouldn't cut it for me. --Tikiwont (talk) 14:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Non-free use tag?

Can someone please tell me what speedy deletion template should be used on an image uploaded under a free use rationale as a product of the US government that was in fact not a product of a US government organization? Thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 02:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See: Wikipedia:Guide_to_image_deletion#For_images_claimed_under_free_license. Dcoetzee 03:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Wildhartlivie (talk) 07:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

G12 situation

I tag an article for G12, but I cannot put in the URL in the {{db-copyvio}} template because the URL is on the spam blacklist. What do I do from here? MuZemike 16:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just leave out the http or something, and it should be let through. And mention it in the edit summary that you did this deliberately. :) --Amalthea 17:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or put spaces in the URL. Stifle (talk) 22:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

G4 use problem

Hi. A question about the use of the G4 speedy - the description states it's Recreation of deleted material. A copy, by any title, of a page deleted via a deletion discussion, provided the copy is substantially identical to the deleted version ... (my highlighting) - but for those of us who aren't admins and can't therefore see the previous deleted version(s) of the article, how do we know if there has been any substantial change ? Do we therefore assume it's unchanged, and leave the admin reviewing the erquest to make the decision on any changes made ? CultureDrone (talk) 11:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ask an admin to have a look? I'm usually happy to do these comparisons if there's any doubt. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Moved

I've been bold and moved and updated the page based on the discussion from a few weeks ago, which seemed to form a rough consensus for "Criteria for summary deletion", thus preserving the CSD acronym. If anyone is having an allergic reaction to it, please do speak up... :D Happy‑melon 11:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did you also plan to go through other policy and guideline page text, and change the word "speedy" to "summary"? Did you also plan to let everyone know that rough consensus to change a policy page means three people almost 4 weeks ago kinda said it was an OK idea? I'm not saying this was the worst thing ever done, but seriously, policy pages should be more carefully considered than this when a major change is under foot! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 12:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, yes, but I thought it would be prudent to make sure the sky wasn't going to fall down before chasing down the title in other pages :D. And I count five, with one oppose and several "meh"s. Given that I just waved a huge flag on a thousand watchlists, if there is more discussion to be had, it should certainly start now :D Happy‑melon 12:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that five people supporting the change was nowhere near enough to actually make the change. I suspect the majority of people weren't even aware of the proposal. Changing the name of something that everyone's familiar with needs a bigger degree of community input in my opinion. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 12:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One of the drawbacks of a project this size trying to make decisions via "consensus" is that it's hard to get wide community input for anything. However, I would say this move was just a tad bit too bold for something just being "knocked around" on a talk page. I would recommend switching back and initiating an RFC on this. --Ron Ritzman (talk) 12:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But what would you say in such an RfC? Rather, what would you say in an RfC that you can't just say now and be done with it? This is just as good a venue for discussing the move whether or not I stick an {{rfc}} template on top :D Happy‑melon 13:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also think the discussion was too small, should have been wider advertised, and should have had more consensus for such a wide ranging change. As far as I can tell it wasn't even mentioned on Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion, Wikipedia:Requested moves, or anywhere other than Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion (in a section called "Name of policy" with no move template at the top). I would have opposed if I had seen it. Search currently finds 24 categories [1] and 54 Wikipedia space pages [2] with "speedy deletion" in the name, and 13722 Wikipedia space pages [3] containing "speedy deletion". PrimeHunter (talk) 12:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why would you oppose it? That's the only genuinely important thing. I run a bot that has 55,000 edits; the technical details of implementation don't scare me in the slightest, and I'm more than happy to take the time to complete them, including any notifications that will be required (renaming CAT:CSD, for instance, is sure to break a lot of bots if done unilaterally, although it is a trivial thing to avoid if done carefully). As Ron says, it's hard to get sufficiently wide community support for anything without waving big flags like this. Happy‑melon 13:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It looks moot now but here are some reasons. Risk of confusion with edit summary, plot summary, summary section, summary article. "Speedy deletion" is an old well-established and widely used term with no other meaning in Wikipedia. Insufficient reason to change it to anything at this point. "Summary deletion" has negative connotations to many. Searches show the term is usually written by people objecting to what they consider inappropriate deletion of pages or parts of pages. PrimeHunter (talk) 19:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason to tell you off other than process wonking for it's own sake. If anyone actually disagrees, rather than disagrees in principle, let them complain. Until then, we're just in step one of WP:BRD, and I see no reason to bother with steps two or three. WilyD 12:51, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well. I don't really like it as I think it's a change that's unneccessary and will cause confusion, but I'll give you that it is a better descriptor than speedy. -Chunky Rice (talk) 13:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- But think of the verbiage! Now I have to write "Summary'd!" instead of "Speedied!" ... –xeno (talk) 13:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Or just "CSD'd", which has always worked for me... :D I guess the grammar nazi would say it could be "summaried" but I agree that sounds a bit wierd. Happy‑melon 13:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - The adverb is "summarily", as in "summarily deleted". Uncle G (talk) 16:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with Ryan and Co. above. It's not whether the move was a good idea (which it wasn't) but whether it was supported by consensus. I don't think there was enough discussion to reach a consensus needed to rename a policy that existed for years with this name. A "rough consensus" is worse than that, because all it says is "of those who were aware of that 3 weeks old discussion, the majority possibly did not object to a name change". Before you go ahead and change all pages mentioning CSD, we should have a discussion whether that is wanted. I for one prefer the old name and I think "summary deletion" is confusing to newcomers and an incorrect, too legal term for such a policy. I don't see why there was a need for a change...and I certainly see no consensus for it in a short discussion 3 weeks ago. I don't think boldness is a godo idea when it comes to such decisions. Regards So Why 13:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Summary deletion also may make it seem that it was deleted on the admin's summary judgment alone, when it is the admin acting within the boundaries of years of past precedent. However the literal definition seems to be spot on: Performed speedily and without formal ceremony. FYI, I've left notes at WP:AN and WP:VPP pointing here. –xeno (talk) 14:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But that's exactly what's happening: a real summary judgment is a court making a decision on the normal basis of applicable law, precedent, etc, without as little fuss as possible. Summary judgments aren't where a court goes maverick and makes whatever decision they personally like; they're still just as observant of principles as ever, it's only the process that gets curtailed. Happy‑melon 14:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I know that in the strict legal and literal sense "summary deletion" actually makes perfect sense but most laypersons think "summary judgment" is A Bad Thing™. –xeno (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to note my preference again for "straightforward deletion". Doesn't really matter to me though. --Ali'i 14:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm perfectly happy to move the pages back, but only if someone can explain why the further discussion that we all agree is needed can only occur if that happens. Will me adding an extra 130 move log entries (and potentially another 130 if we then conclude that "summary" is better) somehow make it easier to come to the proper consensus? The wiki isn't going to explode if some people temporarily go "eh?" and then are drawn to the discussion to find out what's going on. In the meantime, I'll go spam some noticeboards... :D Happy‑melon 14:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a big supporter of Happy Melon's work, but this was a !fail. There was no consensus for the move, and renaming one of the most common and important processes on Wikipedia without consensus is a really bad idea. I prefer the name "speedy" because: name changes create confusion, "summary" already has a meaning on Wikipedia (edit summaries), most editors won't know this meaning of the word "summary", and the name "speedy" deletion helps deflect criticism from creators who in fact had their articles deleted quickly.

Unless someone can give me a reason not to, I'm going to revert the name change until there's consensus to change it. 5 people is not consensus on something this central to Wikipedia. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 14:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I won?!? :D As I said above, my only reason to object to a revert is that it gives the impression of "case closed": tried it, it was reverted, end-of-story-clearly-nothing-more-to-see-here. Which is not very conducive to future discussion. That and the fact that it bloats watchlists and logs and just makes more work if we then decide to move. But as I said, I'm not going to shout at anyone that does move them back, and I'll move them myself iff someone explains why it is 'necessary' or even 'beneficial' to do so. Happy‑melon 14:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See my comments in the next sub-section. I strongly dislike this move, on two grounds. Procedurally, I think this was groundless: no defined problem and no consensus for the solution. And in the implementation, it's very problematic: "Summary" means several different things, and the meaning you're implying has unpleasant connotations, including lack of justice (not to mention death). Please revert this as soon as possible.

Is there really a dreadful problem with "speedy deletion"? Is there consensus we should change it? If so, let's find a solution that also has consensus and one that works well. --Dweller (talk) 14:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps a !vote is wanted? –Drilnoth (T • C) 14:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps some constructive discussion first, rather than a polarising poll. Happy‑melon 14:57, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose the move. 'Summary' does not convey the reason behind a speedy deletion, if fact, it has a negative connotation. If anything, the only possible replacement for the word would be 'Immediate deletion'. But that doesn't fit the S... — Edokter • Talk • 14:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How does it "not convey the reason"? Neither does "speedy", which has similar "negative connotations". If anything, "immediate" is even worse, as many CSD deletions aren't immediate, an many others shouldn't be. Happy‑melon 15:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not everyone sees the words the same way you do. For me, summary deletion brings up an image of a posse in the old west, hanging a suspect without any evidence of guilt. While that may be the practice of some editors and admins at CSD, it's not an image I want to encourage. Speedy has no such connotations for me, but it obviously has some bad ones for you. Could you explain what the problem with the word speedy is that we're trying to fix? That way we may get a better solution. --Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's certainly not an image we want to encourage, I grant you! The problem I see with "speedy" is that it brings to mind an image of an admin in a race or on an arcade game, trying to delete as many articles as possible before the time runs out, with minimal thought to whether the articles actually warrant deletion. All admins will confirm that the article superficially meets the criterion, but not as many as we would like will do a more thorough check to ensure that we're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Fewer still will think to consider whether there is a better outcome for the encyclopedia than to delete the page; the encyclopedia is often better served by a redirect, a rewrite, or a merge, but this is often, indeed usually, not done. This is the attitude to CSD we need to be cultivating: a methodical and thorough evaluation by a 'learned' editor; in exactly the same fashion as a summary judgment. If that results in greater backlogs at CSD, then we need more admins to patrol it, not to compromise our standards. Right now we are throwing out page after page of potentially useful content in a rush for efficiency, to "speedily" get through the category as quickly as possible. That seems to me the greater evil. Happy‑melon 15:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not convinced that summary will solve that, especially since the initials will be the same -- the problem admins will still think "CSD" in their heads (not gonna address where else they'd be thinking! LOL), delete as fast as they can, and be done with it. :(

I think we're on the same page as far as the problem to be fixed. I've left a lot of notes to both editors who mistag and to admins who delete articles that shouldn't have been speedied. (Sometimes to educate them, sometimes to educate me). I don't think anything as simple as a name change will solve the problem completely. Mind you, I'm not saying that a name change might not help a little bit, but more fundamental changes need to happen. (Which might need a new section to discuss, so it doesn't get lost in this one.)--Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer "speedy". Wikipedia is full of jargon, and one might think this means it's desirable to use clearer terms for things. But in this case, I think I prefer the jargon. As others have pointed out, "summary" has many other natural meanings including another technical meaning on WP. Its use here has confusion potential. On the other hand "speedy"--especially when used as a noun ("This page is ripe for a speedy") or a verb ("I am going to speedy that page")--is obviously a term of art. The first time I saw "speedy" used that way on a message board, because of its peculiarity, it knew that it had to have a special meaning and I went off to figure out what it meant and what the rules might be for its use. I don't think that "summary" would have delivered the same message. By the way, for what it's worth, this is the first I've heard of this discussion (saw it mentioned at WP:VPP this morning).--Arxiloxos (talk) 15:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The lawyer side of me cannot resist making this follow-up note on the analogies to "summary judgment". I'd suggest that the AfD process is actually closer to summary judgment (under U.S. law, anyway) rather than CSD. In summary judgment, the parties put forth their arguments, and present a limited amount of evidence in writing, in an expedited but still somewhat deliberate fashion. CSD is more like the "motion to dismiss"--such as a Rule 12(b)(6) motion to dismiss for failure to state a claim under the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, or what we still call a demurrer in California--in which the court is empowered to throw out a case based on weaknesses that are apparent on the face of the complaint, based only on specific legal arguments and without (in most cases) needing to look closely at the underlying evidence. For those of us unlucky enough to have had our brains polluted by law school or legal proceedings, this might be another argument against using "summary" in this context--Arxiloxos (talk) 15:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly oppose such move, while it was a bold move, much more discussion should have taken place. Jenuk1985 | Talk 15:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you oppose the rename? Happy‑melon 15:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't nag people who have given an opinion as I have here, and you have done above, its inappropriate. I gave my reason. Jenuk1985 | Talk 15:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand where the confusion comes from. If 5 people decided that "Home Page" sounded better than "Main Page" and someone moved it, don't you think that might cause a problem or two? Ryan has moved it back; now we can discuss. I'm against it; I gave 4 reasons above, and I have another reason: the only people who can delete pages are admins, so if there's a problem with how fast admins are deleting, we can solve that problem by discussion with admins. Changing the name and avoiding the discussion sounds like trying to win with good marketing rather than by discussion. The word "speedy" is very important at deflecting the accusation by the attack-page-creator or spammer: "You deleted my article too fast, why didn't you give me a chance to fix it? - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 15:22, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I meant "do you have reasons for preferring 'speedy' over 'summary'", not about the moves back and forth that have just been completed; sorry if that was misinterpreted. I understand fully (and somewhat agree with) the reasons some are unhappy with the way I moved it. As you say, "now we can discuss"; drawing in editors to such a discussion was a large part of my rationale for moving, as I explained below. Saying "I strongly oppose the move" without any further reason contributes nothing to that discussion. Happy‑melon 15:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, much better, and we're on the same page (with the same name :) I promise to support a full discussion; I remember back when I was doing more work with style guidelines that I often felt tempted to do exactly the same kind of thing to generate discussion. But really, there aren't a huge number of admins doing speedy deletions; getting us all in a room to pay attention and talk about it should be doable. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 15:51, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Random sales pitch: I've proposed a WP:WikiProject Policy at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#WikiProject Policy. Such a project might help get a more thorough appraisal of these kinds of issues (one of the problems at the moment is policy ideas don't get enough eyes on them). Comments welcome. Rd232 ^talk 16:30, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It may be better to rename it to administrative deletions. Ruslik (talk) 16:38, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Meh, all actual deletions are carried out by Admins, so that name would probably be even more confusing, especially to new users. The Seeker 4 Talk 17:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OTOH, many newbies think the person who tagged the article is the person who actually deleted it. Administrative Deletions might reinforce that it was done by an admin, and might convey that the article didn't meet some guideline.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the rename, since speedy does sound a bit weird and informal and summary probably is better since it implies that the deletion is carried out without discussion (eg, summarily executed) LetsdrinkTea 02:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not keen on either "summary" or "speedy": To me, "summary" implies an official ruling that can't be overturned, when in fact it is or should be easy to recreate an article if there's been only a speedy deletion and no AfD discussion. I agree with FabricTramp about the connotations. "Speedy" might give admins the idea of deleting too soon after article creation etc. How about "simple deletion" or "gentle deletion"? "Simple deletion" preserves the acronym, but people may not like having their article "simply deleted". "One-person deletion"? ☺Coppertwig (talk) 21:18, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
When "Votes for deletion" was renamed "Articles for deletion" the vote mentality didn't change, so I doubt any perceived advantaged of this move would work either. Also, it might confuse people who are actually trying to get an edit summary oversighted. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dislike new name, "summary"

Resolved

– Moved into section above

As I seem to have missed any discussion that may have taken place about this rename, I'll log my deep dislike of it here. "Summary" means several different things, and the meaning you're implying has unpleasant connotations, including lack of justice (not to mention death).

I'm curious as to what the problem was that prompted this "cure", where the consensus was sought and gained and how many users were involved in that process. --Dweller (talk) 14:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There was a discussion here. It went for 3 days with ca. 10 people involved and ca. 3 people explicitly in favor. Imho that's not nearly enough consensus to rename a policy on. Also, see section above. Regards So Why 14:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just to nitpick, I see support from Black Falcon, Dcoetzee, Phil Bridger, Aervanath and myself. I hope I can still count... Happy‑melon 14:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I said "explicitly". They way I rad it Black Falcon and Aervanath were not explicitly in favor of changing the name, just that "summary" would be okay if there was consensus to change it. So Why 14:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I'll move up there, then. --Dweller (talk) 14:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy is a bad descriptor and summary is a good one? WilyD 14:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's leave this section now and keep the discussion in one place. --Dweller (talk) 14:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved back

Summary justice is that with which, in their disdain, they have, in some few instances, prevailed upon themselves to indulge the vulgar herd.

Jeremy Bentham, Bentham's Draught for the Organization of Judicial Establishments

Given the comments so far about this move, I think it's clear to say that many disagree with the move. I've moved the page back to its original title for now and we can restart discussion. Ryan Postlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or let's have banter} 14:52, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've no problem with that as long as we don't now get "it's been moved twice already" as a reason to oppose a move, which would be a little pathetic. Don't forget to 'unfix' the two double redirects (WP:CSD and WP:SPEEDY) that I updated; I left the other 70 (!) until we came to a conclusion. Happy‑melon 14:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That summary justice is really the genuine, and regular the counterfeit, is what any one, who has read the observations of Article 21 of the preceding Title has, I trust, found some cause to suspect.

Jeremy Bentham, Bentham's Draught for the Organization of Judicial Establishments

At this point it would be sensible to summarise from the previous discussion. As noted by MZMcBride as the OP, we regularly encounter the misunderstanding that "speedy" implies either "delete as quickly as possible", or "delete without thought or evaluation". Neither of these are true, but we have a minor but recurring problem of admins who work CAT:CSD believing that they are. There is also the issue that a number of the CSD criteria have time limits which make a total mockery of the "speedy" concept; with some tags needing to be left in place for a week before "speedy" deletion is allowed. Black Falcon proposed "summary" as a replacement to preserve the CSD acronym, with connection to summary judgment; "summary" has the very appropriate meaning of "Performed speedily and without formal ceremony". Happy‑melon 14:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Summary justice" also means an absence of proper justice, it means vigilantism, not listening and a host of unhappy connotations for those who understand the term. For those who don't understand the term, there's the confusion of thinking it's something to do with precis. And I'm not sure I agree with the perceived problems with "speedy deletion" being really problematic. Can we do this a stage at a time, rather than rushing? I applaud your zeal, but for a useful process, start by discussing the problem. You may find there's no consensus that there is one, which would render everything else moot. --Dweller (talk) 15:01, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If you define 'justice' for article deletion as a full AfD, then yes, CSD is summary justice. If you factor in WP:IAR, then yes, there is an element of vigilanteism. In the rather bizzarre quasi-legal structure that exists here, I think the phrase actually summarises the situation perfectly.
  I guess I should have explained what I was doing better, but a big reason for being bold was to encourage further discussion; see for instance the rather better explanation I gave here on a similarly bold update of {{mfd}}. You can't deny that the move has encouraged that discussion! Happy‑melon 15:10, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- But on the other hand, summary judgement is a judicial proceeding, albeit without a full trial on the merits. – ukexpat (talk) 15:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the move did encourage further discussion! :) I reread the archive just now, and I didn't see a lot of consensus -- I did see a lot of people not taking the suggestion too seriously. However, since we're having a serious discussion now, I'll chime in. I'm not a fan of "summary", because of the association with vigilantism. Yes, speedy has its problems, but summary is not an improvement.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 15:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't really have a strong opinion either way. "Summary" is a bit ambiguous, but "speedy" also has its flaws. Kudos to Happy-melon for boldly making an attempt to get the ball rolling. –Juliancolton ^Talk · ^Review 15:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think "speedy" conveys it quite correctly actually, except in those cases where the tags need to be in place for a week. But the point is that it's not "as fast as possible" but fast if compared to PROD or AFD. If an article is deleted after 12 hours, it's still 10 times faster than at AFD or with a PROD. So it's comparatively speedy. The only other word for it might be "criteria for uncontroversial deletion" because the only thing all criteria have in common is that they should not be applied when it's a controversial deletion. But speedy deletion has been established for years now and I do not think any change would be solving the underlying problem that some admins are too careless when speedy deleting. That won't be solved by a name change, if anything, "summary deletion" would encourage them to think that they are the "judges" of the deletion rather than just the janitors who clean up the mess. Regards So Why 15:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think speedy is the wrong word--the point of the process is not the time, it takes, but of clearing out the garbage without the need to discuss it, which more closely its "summary". I am not completely sure it's the best word possible, but it has an advantage in starting with the same letter. And it is the standard term for a roughly analogous legal process. DGG (talk) 16:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And for executions without trial. I doubt people know the legal process, but they probably know "summary execution". And as pointed out above, summary deletion would rather be a correct name for AFD because allows involvement by both parties, not only one like speedy deletion usually does. I think speedy needs to be read as compared to normal deletion because it still is faster than going through deletion discussions. A replacement word would have to show that it only applies when there is no need for discussion, so the correct name in that case would be "criteria for deletion without discussion". Regards So Why 16:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not thinking of it in legalistic terms at all is a better approach. As noted, the legalisms are prone to misunderstanding and creative misinterpretation, always at risk of metamorphosing into arguments over actual law, and also subject to simple ignorance of specialist meanings of words in favour of general meanings. After all, Wikipedia isn't a court of law or a social experiment. Start renaming things to legalisms, and soon people will be quoting Jeremy Bentham at you to tell you why Wikipedia's "summary deletion" isn't the same as summary justice. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 16:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose renaming to "summary deletion" - it has few identifiable benefits, and the new name smacks of quick legal proceedings, treating the subject with disdain. Basically, I agree with Uncle G above. We may not mean it in that way, but it gives that impression nonetheless. The current name is fine IMO. ╟─Treasury Tag►contribs─╢ 16:17, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think summary is a good word here. While it seems correct in juridical sense, most of people are probably unfamiliar with it and first thing a wiki editor would make a connection to is the edit summary. And this does not make much sense. My personal opinion is that the expression speedy is just fine - how fast does a bad article get deleted after being tagged? Speedy. Not to mention copyvios and BLP violations that actually should be deleted as fast as possible. By the way, a great deal of people would also think that Jeremy Bentham is in fact John Locke. :-) --Tone 16:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I hadn't thought of the edit-summary confusion. I'll just offer up swift deletion since it fits the initials and I just thought of it, but it's no real improvement. Just leave it as it is, I reckon! ╟─Treasury Tag►contribs─╢ 16:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - this renaming is a needless waste of everyone's time. Even if it would have been better to call it "summary deletion" originally (which I doubt, for reasons given by others above), changing it now can't possibly be worth the hassle. And even if it were, it's extremely unlikely to achieve a wide enough consensus to do it. So I'd urge those who wanted the move to reconsider and find something more constructive to do. Rd232 ^talk 16:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How is it a waste of everyone's time? Nobody is forcing anybody to participate in this discussion. –Juliancolton ^Talk · ^Review 16:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, if you move this page, you break the entire Internet. True story. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. Whether the name of a well-known Wikipedia page needs to be changed depends on the intended audience. Who are we trying to convince that speedy deletions shouldn't be thought of as speedy? If admins, then we don't need to change a page name to do that, we can simply discuss it with the admins and tell us/them the decision. Taggers? No, I actually want them to think of the deletion as speedy; I want someone who's considering a WP:CSD G7 of their own creation to think "I better do this only if I'm certain, because if I do it, the page is likely to be deleted speedily." I want someone tagging for db-spam to think "I should only tag this page if the tone is so obviously promotional that it should be deleted speedily, without discussion." And as I said above, I don't want to be arguing with attack-page-creators and self-promoters about why I deleted their page so fast; "speedy" says it for me. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 17:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose name change This is a solution looking for a problem. The name of Speedy Deletion is not an issue, and any minor confusion/ambiguity would be compounded by naming it "summary deletion". We already talk about "edit summaries" and such, so using the word for an entire category of deletion would simply confuse new users. At least with "speedy deletion" the word "speedy" means the same thing every time (at least close enough to avoid major confusion) it is used. I do not see a need to change it; no compelling problem exists. The Seeker 4 Talk 17:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bold commments don't really help form consensus. --MZMcBride (talk) 17:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This problem taxed the minds first of the cloning engineers, then of the priests, then of the letters page of the Sidereal Record Straightener, and finally of the lawyers who experimented vainly with ways of redefining murder, re-evaluating it and in the end even respelling it in the hope that no one would notice.

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Fit the Eleventh

I have to flip my opinion - I think the current name is misleading, but that "summary" has its own misleading aspects - most importantly, many people are simply not familiar with the use of the word in that sense. I would support "Deletion without discussion" but that would change the acronym. Dcoetzee 20:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you must have an 'S'-word to replace Speedy, I would suggest Simple. I think the important connotation here is that the deletion decision is a simple one: does the article meet the predefined criteria for what should be deleted? If yes, then it can be SD'd (sorry, no snappy verb). If no, then a more complex procedure should be followed. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "Simplified" doesn't quite hit the mark, does it? That's actually an interesting suggestion. It at least has the dual advantages of (a) not being a legalism, and (b) not having the connotations of the other words immediately below. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Other S words suggested from before: "scheming, secret, sharp, shifty, shrewd, slick, sly, smart, smooth, sneaking, sneaky, stealthy, subtle, supervisory, surreptitious"... Instead of Criteria for Speedy Deletion, we can have Cabal Scheming for Deletion. ;-)--Fabrictramp | talk to me 22:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with changing to "summary deletion". "Speedy deletion" indicates exactly what the process is; "summary deletion" simply does not. No need to change this so only WP policy fans get it intuitively. Townlake (talk) 22:51, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My two cents is that I also dislike the "summary deletion" name, and much prefer "speedy deletion". Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 00:43, 28 March 2009 (UTC).[reply]
I also oppose the name change. While there could be a better name than "speedy", "summary" is not the way to go. What about "procedural deletion"? That embodies the hard-line attitude that's taken towards it, as a juxtaposition to the "discussion" style that AfD is supposed to be. Them From Space 03:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is another of many recent proposals based on the odd idea that re-naming something actually changes the way it will work. Playing a shell game with the name is not going to change anything, so I am also opposed to this idea. If you want to change the actual process that is a different matter. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:25, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As someone with that account name, I'm surprised that you don't suggest "Criteria for page revocation". S-P-E-E-D-Y-D-E-L-E-T-I-O-N, revocation. ☺ Uncle G (talk) 20:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, unnecessary busywork. Stifle (talk) 22:40, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problem with the bold move of renaming the page - that's how Wikipedia has progressed. A shake of the head and a loud tut at all those who winged and moaned like old nanny goats when an experienced editor in good standing simply cut through process and made a bold edit. However, I see no gain from renaming the page, and much to be lost. It is a well used name, and conveys the sense of the job just as well as the proposed new name. If there are problems with the speedy deletion process, then those problems need to tackled directly. Renaming speedy to summary to prevent inappropriate tagging, is like wallpapering over the cracks of a house with subsidence. SilkTork *^YES! 23:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the suggestion that "deletion without discussion" is the best name for this process, and that's the one I'd vote for if we were creating this process from scratch. But "speedy deletion" does a good enough job of describing the process and it has a lot of history and general knowledge among our contributors. Changing it really is unnecessary busy-work; it makes little or no difference to the ultimate goal of actually creating an encyclopedia: how we execute this process is far, far more important than what it's called. ~ mazca ^t|c 00:16, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I never saw the problem with speedy, and honestlty after reading most of the discussions still don't see a problem with it. I will note that I had to fix a broken redirect to this page (encountered when clicking a link in a CSD template). I thought we had a bot for that? §hep ^Talk 01:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yet another What's Wrong with CSD section

The section header says it all. :)

In the discussion above about renaming CSD, it seems that several of us are on the same page (no pun intended) about the problems with CSD. Namely:

Too many pages are getting deleted when editing, redirecting, or merging would be more appropriate, more helpful to the reader, and less bitey
There's too much of a "race" mentality, both with NPP tagging for deletion and working through the category, although this mentality may just be among a highly visible minority of editors and admins
Whatever changes are made need to encourage more thought going into each deletion.

Suggestions I recall from the past involve renaming CSD, adding a mandatory wait period between tagging and deletion (similar to PROD), and a mass campaign of educating editors and admins (which I can tell you from personal experience feels like trying to empty the Pacific Ocean with a teaspoon).

Closely tied into this is the issue of admin accountability. While I personally think the recall process (or lack thereof) is a complete fail, I'm also uncomfortable with the fact that unless an admin really goes off the deep end, there's not much real accountability for things like bad speedy deletions. (And similarly, not a whole lot of incentive for editors to improve their tagging.) Sure, I can remove tags, rewrite, or restore articles myself, but for those of us who take the time to do that, there's a high frustration level (and probably a high burnout rate). Not to mention the high probability that potentially good new editors are scared off by getting a speedy notice 2 minutes after their article is created.

So, any brain storms on how to improve this process?--Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about taking each and every incorrect speedy deletion to DRV and overturn them? Noone likes to be wrong and if an admin gets a dozen speedies overturned each week, they might be more careful. ;-) So Why 16:41, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My impression is there's broad support for all of these ideas. I started off always leaving a message on the tagger's talk page and keeping the diffs at the (unlinked) page User:Dank55/csd whenever I declined a speedy tagged by a registered account; these days, I always put the reason for declining the speedy on my own talk page, and leave a talkback on the tagger's page that links directly to the right section on my talk page, because some taggers were annoyed by the perceived wrist-slapping on their own talk pages. The goal is to provide anyone easy access to all my speedy decisions (you can see all the actually deleted pages in my logs and all the non-deleted pages on my talk page), and open up communication with the taggers, and (sneakily, I suppose) provide admins a quick way to see if taggers are really not getting it ... a lot of talkback notices to my talk page is a bad sign. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 16:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - So how do you handle taggers who don't get it? I don't get many taggers who are truly annoyed by my messages (I can only think of one, probably because I always explicitly say it's a friendly message), but I don't have a good strategy for the ones who ignore the messages and continue with bad tags.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

These days, it's a different tagger virtually every time there's a mistake. The one tagger that both you and I were concerned about earlier has stopped tagging, it appears. If I run into another tagger who seems to be a problem, I'll discuss it with them privately first, and if that doesn't work, with other admins who work at CSD. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 04:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it does seem like the ones who don't get it eventually get bored with tagging and move on to something else. Which might be part of what leads to the emptying the ocean with a teaspoon feeling -- a new tagger comes along to replace them, and the education starts all over. :) --Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fewer pages would be deleted if more care went into creating worthwhile new articles and more filtering to prevent new junk. That would set the practical standard higher for speedy deletion, maybe lead to cleanup/fixing more often; speedy deletion would be a bigger decision (hopefully) more carefully made; maybe even made redundant. The only way to do that (that I can think of) is to make it harder to create new articles. One could turn Articles for Deletion into Articles for Creation, and speedy deletion into speedy creation (both ideas would need a lot of elaboration and might be unworkable...) - it would be less bitey to newbies to have a suggestion rejected than work they've done deleted, and maybe frame debate in a more positive way. But I suspect such a radical change is virtually impossible to develop consensus for now, regardless of the merits of concrete versions of it that might be developed (probably have been somewhere...). Rd232 ^talk 17:02, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia:Articles for creation has in fact existed since 2005. Uncle G (talk) 17:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - Yes, but its function is dependent on how hard it is to make new articles without going through it or some other process (speedy creation, to sustain the analogy). Rd232 ^talk 17:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And I think everyone agrees that getting rid of true junk isn't the problem here.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 17:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - But it is, as I tried to argue above. CSD exists to get rid of "true junk", which requires admins to distinguish it from stuff that is worth saving (or which isn't and doesn't fall under CSD). Having a whole lot less true junk and a whole lot less terrible-but-ultimately-worthwhile articles would make CSD qualitatively very different. Rd232 ^talk 17:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would want to argue that there is not really that much "true junk", just admins who delete terrible-but-ultimately-worthwhile pages as such. For example I got a track record of 25-30% declined speedy deletions. If people had instead tried to fix those articles instead of tagging, we would have a lot less work. Regards So Why 18:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe. But in borderline cases it takes a bit of work to judge whether something is worthwhile, never mind improve it. So if article creation were more consistently a collaborative process, instead of New Editor X starting something on their own (having at best a passing acquaintance with how to do it), there'd be a whole lot less articles being proposed for CSD, which would allow more attention on each one. And there'd be a whole lot less pissed-off New Editor Xs. Rd232 ^talk 18:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just for grins, I popped over to CSD and worked on three articles. One was a true piece of crap that unfortunately didn't meet any CSD criteria. One has about a 50% chance of surviving AfD and made a clear claim of importance, but needs help. The third has about a 95% chance of surviving AfD, made a claim of importance (but I could see how someone could miss the claim), and was well written.

The idea of more collaboration on new articles is intriguing, but I don't think it should be mandatory. If I can write a well-written, well-referenced stub on a 19th century baseball player, should I be forced to wait until someone else is interested enough to collaborate on the article? Yeah, someone may come along and mistag it for deletion, but personally I'd rather take that chance. However, it might be a great place to point newbies who are having trouble writing that first article.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 18:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see how to make it effective without making it mandatory. For example - off the top of my head, so don't stake me for it - through a flagged revisions sort of thing just for new articles - anyone can create an article, but it only goes public when someone reviews it and OKs it. Combine that with prominent links to AFC for more organised collaboration/discussion particularly for newbies. Optionally could apply the mandatoriness only to new editors (however defined) since it's primarily aimed at forcing them into a minimum of collaboration/discussion. Or X zillion other ways to do it I'm sure, but without mandatoriness of some kind there's not much effect, as the existence of AfC since 2005 shows. (I'm not saying it's useless, it's just if it really worked CSD would be unnecessary.) Rd232 ^talk 18:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's that "really works" part that gets you every time. :) One possible improvement would be to make it mandatory only for editors with fewer than X edits, or the opt-out is only available upon request to experienced editors (along the lines of rollback). But then the problem comes in of who reviews? Can't be another new editor, or else the sock/meat puppets will figure out that trick in a flash. What happens when the reviewer isn't thorough, but instantly decides something's crap (along the lines of the current CSD problem)? Probably a dozen other issues, but it's almost lunch in my time zone, so my brain isn't cooperating with thought requests. :)--Fabrictramp | talk to me 19:31, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, patrolling has a huge backlog already and that way we'd get articles that take days or weeks to be approved, effectively taking what peopel like about Wikipedia, i.e. that what you change appears immediately. So Why 20:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

True, but by limiting the population of editors subject to new article review you limit the backlog; also such a system should reduce workload elsewhere (eg AFD, CSD). A disputed rejection can be taken to AfC for further debate. As to putting people off because their changes don't appear immediately (a) it only applies to new articles, they can make changes to existing ones; (b) people shouldn't be creating articles in order to get a kick out of Its Online Now! - WP:NOT a blog. Constructive additions can wait a few days for it to go fully public, and can see and edit the draft in the mean-time, and even tell friends to go look at the draft, etc. Well anyway these are the sort of ideas that would need hashing out if it seemed at all plausible that the community might agree to a sufficiently well-thought proposal (which this isn't!), which I'm not convinced of. Rd232 ^talk 15:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I've recently starting reviewing articles at AFC, and it is a pretty good "filtering" system. It not only catches articles that would be CSD'ed but also allows reviewers to place an article "on hold" and ask the newbie to try and find better sources, clean up the tone, or whatever else. In this way it not only filters new articles but educates new users, allowing a chance to show them how good new articles are created. I think it would be a good idea if all pages created by very new users went through such a process, but I also think we'd be in for a long, difficult struggle to make that happen, a lot of people will see it as "more bureaucracy" even though the idea would actually be to reduce the number of speedy deletions and educate new users. Some CSD'ed articles are made with deliberate bad intentions, but I think the majority of speedyable articles are made by new users who haven't taken the time to familiarize themselves with our most basic policies, and this would more or less make them aware of those policies in advance instead of after their article is already deleted. Of course, it's also all dependent on there being enough people willing to reveiw new articles, but there would be a lot less "newpage patrolling" going on, that should free up a few hundred users... Beeblebrox (talk) 19:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Broken" redirects

redirects to invalid targets, such as nonexistent targets

are considered fair game for speedy deletion. We should recall from time to time how this criterion got there. It was by bullying, not be consensus. It happened in the spring of 2005. Formerly there had been exceptions. There are some really obvious reasons for exceptions. But those who wanted to delete indicscriminately ALL redirects to non-existent targets (1) dishonestly denied that any exceptions had ever appeared in the policy; and (2) denied that they had ever heard of any reasons for exceptions, after those reasons had been repeatedly and patiently explained to them. Michael Hardy (talk) 02:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{context}}. —David Eppstein (talk) 02:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An excerpt from the discussion of four years ago, in March, 2005:

For example, I know enough to know that Eastern Sudanic should redirect to Eastern Sudanic languages, but I could not posisbly write even a stub article about that. A Wikipedian could easily know, from having read a variety of instances, that coupled harmonic oscillator is not one of those phrases that are always plural, so the plural should redirect to the singular, but may not know whether the topic is physics or music or New-Age philosophy. Such a person could not possibly write a stub on that topic, but could easily write a valuable pre-emptive redirect.

I wouldn't think something like that would be hard to understand, but I found people denying that I had written it after I did. Michael Hardy (talk) 02:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could you perhaps tell us exactly what you'd like to happen? --Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:40, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Xe would like a more nuanced criterion. Ever since it was first added in 2004 the criterion has been a simple mechanical rule that redirects to non-existent pages are deletable on sight, if they cannot be fixed to point to an existing page. But the most common use of the criterion would appear to be the cleaning up of redirects pointing to pages that have themselves been deleted. If you are asking for an exact wording suggestion, please observe that Michael Hardy has had a proposal containing exact wording on the table since 2005. You can find it in the archives of this very talk page. ☺ You can also find the counterarguments, relating to the value of redlinks, the difficulties incurred by making simple mechanical speedy deletion criteria into subtle rules, and suchlike, there and at the discussions that it in turn links to. Uncle G (talk) 19:12, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And the problem with this is... Stifle (talk) 22:38, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stop the wholesale Deletion of the Usepages of Indefinitely Blocked Users

The deletion of “usepages of indefinitely blocked users’, especially the talk pages, should stop until such deletions are properly described here at WP:CSD. The policy problem is that these deletions are not covered by WP:CSD or any XfD. The actual problem is that the category is too broad and includes pages that should not be deleted.

For example. User_talk:posturewriter contains in its history a lot of material relevant to the development (and misdevelopment) of mainspace articles. To start to understand the history of the mainspace articles, this user_talk page is important.

It also contains records relevant to the development of WP:MEDRES. This guideline is important but causes problems with some new contributors, and deleting the talk pages of those who have the troubles is not a method for revealing shortcomings in the guideline, and improving on them.

This talk page contains material useful for the development of wikipedia mediation issues. Mediation, or education of the stubornly wayward, or how to cope with the pain and disruption of kooks, however you choose to look at these kind of problems, is definitely an area where we would like to do better. It is not helpful to delete the userpages of every constructive editor who had trouble with our rules, became belligerent, got indefinitely blocked, and didn’t proceed to appeal within one month.

I’m not wholesale against the deletion of userpages of indefinitely blocked users, such as vandalism only, or personal attack only, but the talk pages of users who made good faith contributions to mainspace should not be deleted out-of-process. The example page was even kept at MfD, before being deleted following a series of knee-jerk administrative decisions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:30, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this, but the discussion should be taken up at WP:AN I think. Stifle (talk) 22:37, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Stifle. This is not the place for this discussion. Administrator's Noticeboard and the Village Pump are the place for this kind of discussion. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 22:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hate it when important policy matters are discussed and lost at WP:AN. This is clearly a matter of deletion policy. Deletion policy should be described, for the benefit of those doing it, or subject to it. Non-XfD deletions should be codified here. Cross-post at WP:AN and pumps by all means. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is how we have handled these pages for years. I think the harm associated with it is greatly exaggerated. Policy has yet to describe this long existing practice, it needs to catch up and our practices should not have to wait for that. Chillum 22:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, it only takes just one admin to do it this way for years. Unless someone questions it, as in the recent spate of deletions of "secret pages", we won't even know what the concensus is because many users (especially ones who can't see the deleted pages) won't ever see what was deleted. Just yesterday I was scratching my head over a "new" user talk page that appeared on my watchlist. After a bit of poking, I realized that I had watchlisted it before the user got indef'd, then someone deleted the user and talk pages, and now someone else had posted a sockblock template on the talk page, making it show up on my watchlist. Later, someone will come along and delete it, still later someone will template it -- how is this in any way productive? If you need to get rid of something on the user/talk page, delete it once and immediately put up some kind of template that says "indef'd and deleted", and then leave it the heck alone.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You might dislike the convention, but I can almost guarantee that you won't get the result you want if you try to confine the discussion to the CSD talk page. I understand that it seems strange that you would have to take a discussion about a CSD policy elsewhere (and, contrary to Chillum, I don't think that "We've done it that way for years" is a justification for anything at all). However, the reason this is CSD policy is (if I recall the history correctly) because it was being done so widely that someone thought it should be put in the policy somewhere. Policy pages on Wikipedia are not laws; they are summaries of "best practices" as they are figured out in the field, and thus are kept up to date with what is generally done, not the other way around. Reverting long-standing consensus requires many eyes; this page is not heavily trafficked enough for that. Therefore, forming consensus on this talk page will have the appearance of attempting to push through policy changes using procedural loopholes (forming "consensus" with only a few people who pay attention to this talk page, where others might have very strong dissenting opinions). As it happens, I tend to agree with your attitude about this, but you won't get any support from me (or most others, I would wager) unless you bring it to a wider audience. --Ryan Delaney ^talk 23:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Having done it for years without any apparent problem is a pretty good indication it is not a problem. Some vandals have nothing better to do than stir up a bunch of shit on their talk page before during and after their indefinite block just to have this trophy page. We deny them that trophy. It has nothing to do with building an encyclopedia so we don't host it. This is simply a matter of housekeeping, crap piles up, we remove it. Chillum 23:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The thing is, it's getting done as a kneejerk reaction. If the crap needs to be flushed, then flush it, but think first. (And if it's just juvenile stuff, blank it). Unfortunately, a small number of admins think every indef'd talk page needs to be deleted.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 23:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

^{[citation needed]}. There's been tons of discussion on this subject and the pages deleted are generally checked against several criteria, in addition waiting at least a month after the last edit to delete it. Mr.Z-man 05:29, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the vandalism accounts which are the problem - these have been happily deleted for years, but the talk pages of contributors with a 'meaningful history' in their talk page which is useful to the encyclopaedia. These were never part of CAT:TEMP when it started, for the same reasons that sockpuppets were pulled out of the category. Numerous discussions, for example at WT:UP have pointed out that these pages can be useful without being considered trophies. As the deletions are mainly done by bots looking through CAT:TEMP, the problem mainly lies in the blocking templates which puts them there, in particular {{uw-block3}}. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:45, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm confused then. (No big surprise). User talk:Angels Live is the page I refered to above. This edit, which put an indef block and sock template onto the page, also added Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages. If you look through the edit history after that, having a working indef block template means they are in Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages. Is there some other template people should use to keep those pages out of the temporary category? If so, apparently not everyone knows about it.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 01:42, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{do not delete}}. Its already contained in all the sock templates and I believe all the spam-warning templates. Or just don't put {{indef}} on the page, or use {{indef|historical}}. Mr.Z-man 05:24, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Chillum. No apparent problem? Did you look for problems? Was the editor effectively silenced with easy to find evidence of appeal? Was a potentially valuable contributor put off due to being treated harshly, with the ultimate door slam of DELETION of his talk history and ability to edit under his chosen username. What about our reputation for dealing with people? We are not talking about vandals and trolls. Vandals and trolls have little hesitation in creating new accounts. I am talking about the contributors of some good and lots of “good faith” contributions. These people are blocked. Why delete the talk history? Just because you can’t see a purpose, it doesn’t mean that there can be no purpose. Unless you already know everything that is useful to know? Have we nothing to learn (think communication effectiveness of guidelines, wikipedia mediation processes)? The costs of failing to learn can be incalculable. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:46, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Valuable contributor? These are people that are indef blocked, by definition no longer welcome here. If there is a good reason to not delete a page, remove it from the category. If someone needs it for future defense they can ask for the contents. This seems like a tempest in a teapot here.

I see this is a passionate subject for you. For me it is a simple matter of housekeeping, I have no strong feelings on the matter. I do have a position though and I have explained it. Chillum 23:57, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is about clarification of policy. Should every indef block lead blindly to userpsace deletions after one month? When looking into the history of things (controversial mainspace pages, policy effectiveness, guideline interpretation issues, development of how we do things, I don’t want to not find a whole section of our history because it was automatically deleted for no good reason, and if I do find out about deleted information on talk pages, I don’t want to have to ask for it, each and every time. People are indef blocked sometimes with an expectation that they may see the error of their ways, and apologise in an appeal. People are not always indef blocked because everything they have every done was without value. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:08, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is not personal for me. It see a need for improvement, and making changes is only getting harder. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:08, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We're here to build an encyclopedia, not to keep a candle burning in the window for forlorn problem children to see the error of their ways. People must be held accountable for their own actions, and if their actions are so egregious as to warrant an indef, then, IMO, good riddance. Tarc (talk) 00:31, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My point was that there sometimes is value in the past contributions of an indef blocked user, and that there can be material of use in the talk page history, and that the history of what happened with a now indef blocked user can be very important in our policy and process development. It is not about candles, or one last hope for rehabilitation. I am asking for the histories to be kept available behind the blanked pages of the blocked user. Is there a serious suggestion WP:DENY asks for talk page revisions to be routinely deleted for every blocked user? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:51, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tarc has explained my position fairly well. Chillum 00:35, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Tarc as well. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I love reading the minutiae of Wikipedia operations, so I have several reasons to request that indefinitely blocked users with substantial contribution histories be kept: 1. Reading the history of such events is educational for new editors such as myself; 2. Where user pages have been deleted, the resulting lack of transparency will sometimes result in accusations of conspiracies and cabals; 3. Precendent is important in courts of law, so case details are always preserved; this seems like a fine principle for WP also; 4. A user starting afresh may unwittingly be tainted by the name of a blocked user. cojoco (talk) 04:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have no particular opinion about userpages, but user talk pages should be left untouched unless it contains libel or slander something else that is illegal in the real-world sense. Deleting such pages makes it harder to compare edits of new vandals to old ones and let's them get away with things that would otherwise be easily handled. The speedy deletion criteria says that pages by a blocked user in violation of their ban should be deleted, but it doesn't say anything about other pages they created before they were banned. Obviously using userpages as a webhost after the block should be stopped, but there is no particular reason to delete talk pages. Admins can thrawl deletion logs. Any other user would be left in the dark if they tried to investigate the blocked user's history. - Mgm|^(talk) 10:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I cannot see any actual purpose in deleting most of these pages. It does not reclaim storage. It uses work of both the server and whoever is doing it. Andthere are many inactive users who return after a while. We need all we can get. DGG (talk) 16:18, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You cannot return if you've been indef blocked. Pages of retired or inactive users don't get deleted. If there is anything of value on a blocked user's talkpage (not just vandal warnings and CSD notices) then you can add the historical tag to the {{indefblock}} template. Users with sockpuppet templates aren't deleted either. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 17:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simply not true. I was indef blocked. Lots of users are indef blocked or even banned and return; indeed, we prefer that they return, if they do, with their original account. "Indef" means "blocked until unblocked," which might or might not mean forever. There is an additional problem. Sometimes editors are abusively blocked, but for various reasons the community never ends up looking at it or only looks at it much later. Later on, reviewing the actions of an administrator, it can sometimes be seen that there was inadequate warning, or no warning, the admin was in a conflict with the editor, or was even insulting the editor, I can think of an ArbComm case where bad blocks were dug up much later, and helped to show a pattern. Delete the page, only admins can see it, and admins are overwhelmed already. DGG is right. Deleting these pages is make-work that brings no value to the project; certainly many of these pages also bring no value, but others do. There is no harm in blanking the pages, and truly harmful pages can be deleted anyway because of the harm, not because of the indef block, and it's clear that sometimes Talk page deletions are done by admins in service of their own POV. This is rare, I think, but it can help cover the tracks of an abusive admin, and abusive admins can do a lot of damage before our extraordinarily cumbersome process catches up with them. --Abd (talk) 18:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of the pages that are deleted for this reason are vandal-only accounts and username-blocks. Userpages of sockpuppets, banned users, and spammers are kept for tracking purposes. Even then, deleting the talk page doesn't make it impossible for them to appeal. Mr.Z-man 17:39, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vandal-only accounts, if it's truly vandalism -- that should be quite clear and not merely a matter of POV -- should indeed be grounds for deletion. But I've seen the temp category used to delete talk pages for editors who did make useful contributions, but who ran afoul of this or that administrator. I've seen an account blocked for alleged username violation that wasn't; being able to track the warnings and conversation helped me greatly to understand what happened; eventually, some justice will be done, but it takes one step after another, beginning with establishing that this editor actually made positive contributions, and that work should be done within weeks. (The proof will be that the contributions returned, more than a year later, with consensus.) Delete the pages, only an admin could do this kind of follow-up work, thus increasing workload on admins at the same time as concentrating ever-more power in their hands. Structurally, very bad idea. (However, expand the class of editors who can review deleted pages, make that an easily-granted privilege like rollback, then deleting such pages becomes far more reliably harmless.) --Abd (talk) 18:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is any purpose served by deleting the pages? I can see several reasons, and some minor value, in keeping them. Among these are the need sometimes to review (often years later) what happened to an article and why certain edits were made, for example to track down a copyright violation or review a new suspicion of sockpuppetry. Deleting inactive accounts strikes me as problematic in the same way that deleting any historical records is - you lose your history. Inasmuch as ther is usually nobody to stand up for an indef blocked account, there is no check and balance on the deletion process. Rather than deleting, I suggest categorization, moving, templating, or some other way to flag a user as being of no value to the encyclopedia and kept only to preserve the record. Wikidemon (talk) 17:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 352: / Line 352: @@
 :::Simply not true. I was indef blocked. Lots of users are indef blocked or even banned and return; indeed, we prefer that they return, if they do, with their original account. "Indef" means "blocked until unblocked," which might or might not mean forever. There is an additional problem. Sometimes editors are abusively blocked, but for various reasons the community never ends up looking at it or only looks at it much later. Later on, reviewing the actions of an administrator, it can sometimes be seen that there was inadequate warning, or no warning, the admin was in a conflict with the editor, or was even insulting the editor, I can think of an ArbComm case where bad blocks were dug up much later, and helped to show a pattern. Delete the page, only admins can see it, and admins are overwhelmed already. DGG is right. Deleting these pages is make-work that brings no value to the project; certainly many of these pages ''also'' bring no value, but others do. There is no harm in blanking the pages, and truly harmful pages can be deleted anyway because of the harm, not because of the indef block, and it's clear that sometimes Talk page deletions are done by admins in service of their own POV. This is rare, I think, but it can help cover the tracks of an abusive admin, and abusive admins can do a lot of damage before our extraordinarily cumbersome process catches up with them. --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 18:05, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 ::The vast majority of the pages that are deleted for this reason are vandal-only accounts and username-blocks. Userpages of sockpuppets, banned users, and spammers are kept for tracking purposes. Even then, deleting the talk page doesn't make it impossible for them to appeal. <font face="Broadway">[[User:Mr.Z-man|Mr.]][[User talk:Mr.Z-man|'''''Z-'''man'']]</font> 17:39, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
+:::Vandal-only accounts, if it's truly vandalism -- that should be quite clear and not merely a matter of POV -- should indeed be grounds for deletion. But I've seen the temp category used to delete talk pages for editors who did make useful contributions, but who ran afoul of this or that administrator. I've seen an account blocked for alleged username violation that wasn't; being able to track the warnings and conversation helped me greatly to understand what happened; eventually, some justice will be done, but it takes one step after another, beginning with establishing that this editor actually made positive contributions, and that work should be done within weeks. (The proof will be that the contributions returned, more than a year later, with consensus.) Delete the pages, only an admin could do this kind of follow-up work, thus increasing workload on admins at the same time as concentrating ever-more power in their hands. Structurally, very bad idea. (However, expand the class of editors who can review deleted pages, make that an easily-granted privilege like rollback, then deleting such pages becomes far more reliably harmless.) --[[User:Abd|Abd]] ([[User talk:Abd|talk]]) 18:11, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
 *Is any purpose served by deleting the pages?  I can see several reasons, and some minor value, in keeping them.  Among these are the need sometimes to review (often years later) what happened to an article and why certain edits were made, for example to track down a copyright violation or review a new suspicion of sockpuppetry.  Deleting inactive accounts strikes me as problematic in the same way that deleting any historical records is - you lose your history. Inasmuch as ther is usually nobody to stand up for an indef blocked account, there is no check and balance on the deletion process.  Rather than deleting, I suggest categorization, moving, templating, or some other way to flag a user as being of no value to the encyclopedia and kept only to preserve the record.  [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 17:54, 29 March 2009 (UTC)