Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Featured log/May 2009: Difference between revisions
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{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nancy Cartwright/archive1}} |
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{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nancy Drew/archive1}} |
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{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Arthur Henry Cobby/archive1}} |
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Revision as of 23:49, 9 May 2009
May 2009
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:49, 9 May 2009 [1].
- Nominator(s): Yohhans, NuclearWarfare (Talk)''
I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that the article has been significantly improved to the point where it meets the FA Criteria. I first found the article as this in the beginning of March. I've worked on it since then, with the assistance of several editors, such as Bibliomaniac15, Awadewit, and Laser brain; the latter two even quite graciously copyedited the article. The work done by Titoxd, CryptoDerk, and Jesse0986 were before my time; they possibly could have been major contributors and are free to add their names to the nomination.
Just to give a bit of background for those who are unaware: The United States Academic Decathlon is one of the premier academic competitions in the United States for high school students. Since the early 1980s, it has held annual competitions that start at regional levels and culminate with a national championship in April. For those who like to counter one area of Wikipedia's biases in coverage: USAD falls under WikiProject Education's scope, an area that has only about 35 featured articles. NuclearWarfare (Talk) 04:39, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper (I noticed Current ref 97 (PHS...) but there may be others)- I fixed that one and looked through the rest, and I think they are good. Thanks for noticing that. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 18:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- One concern is going to be the large number of references that go to the organization itself. I'm not saying this in necessarily bad, but it can be a concern to reviewers. I'm merely noting the fact for other reviewers to consider for themselves.
- I remember thinking that myself, but unfortunately, I have pretty much exhausted every source I could find. I went through some of the newspaper and magazine archives I have access to (Gale, mostly) and Bibliomaniac did as well (Newsbank), and we are essentially tapped out. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 18:13, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:46, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In my opinion, the material that is sourced to the organization (such as structure of the tournament and scoring) is uncontroversial). The controversial material, such as the cheating scandals or the criticisms of the changes in the competition, are sourced to external sources, such as newspapers. This seems to fall in line with our policy. Awadewit (talk) 20:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support (Disclaimer: I reviewed and copyedited this article. I also briefly participated in AD way back when I was in HS.) This article is comprehensive and well-written - it coherently explains the competition without going into excessive detail. As I mention above, I think its use of sources abides by our reliable source policy. Nice work. Awadewit (talk) 20:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review - All of the free images in this article have verifiable licenses and adequate descriptions. The image of the medals, a fair use image, is one of those that I would say reasonable people could disagree about. Personally, I think it meets WP:NFCC, but I think other reviewers should weigh in on it. Awadewit (talk) 20:43, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - I was impressed with the overall quality of this article. Here is a list of tweaks that could be made throughout the page; note that I don't normally make it through an article of this size in one shot.
History: "In 1981, the nationwide United States Academic Decathlon Association was formed, which held...". The "which" is awkward in this position, since it should be for the association, not "formed". Tweaking the sentence structure should be enough to fix this issue.- Changed in "In 1981, the newly-formed United States Academic Decathlon Association held the first national competition..."
"as the the material was a persuasive essay...". Grammar error.- Huh, I'm surprised AWB missed this. Fixed.
Later in this paragraph, move ref 27 outside the parentheses.- Done.
Levels of competition: "but these are largely for practice and do not determine whether a team can compete at the regional level which uses Round 2 tests." Comma before "which".- Done.
"participated in the the national competition." This is the second time a repeated "the" has shown up.- Fixed.
- The table of topics is causing edit bunching.
- Hmm, it isn't on mine. Can you tell me what size monitor you are using? I'll see if I can change to that and reformat it.
- I'm on a large widescreen (don't know the exact size, but you'd be happy to edit the encyclopedia on it :-)), and the table is pushing three edit tabs to the left. To be honest, I don't know if the problem can be resolved without taking the table out of that section. Note that I'm talking about the yearly table, not the percentage breakdown; that table is fine. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:54, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh yes, that happens to me on mine as well. From the way the sections are set up, I don't think it is possible to fix without changing the structure of the article drastically. Honestly, since it doesn't make the edit links merge into each other on any resolution that I tried, I don't think it is a big deal. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 00:08, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually it's a simple matter of changing the CSS you used. I'll see what I can do. - Yohhans talk 14:31, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've fixed the weird spacing issue, but if viewed on screens with resolutions of 1920x1080 or 1900x1200, bunching is caused by the "Book of the Dead of Nany" picture. This can easily be fixed by floating either the picture or table to the left (one or the other). Any preference on which to do? Another possible fix is shortening the caption for that picture, but that is more of a band-aid than a fix. - Yohhans talk 15:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yay, you are back :) I moved the image to the left and shortened the description somewhat, but that still did not fix the problem. I then added {{clear}}, which fixed the problem, but made it look kind of odd. Can you check that out, please? NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 18:08, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What problem were you having with it before you added the clear template? Removing it makes everything work fine for me. Yohhans talk 18:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Without {{clear}}, the "Objective Events" header gets bumped left over a little. I think it looks better if all the subheadings are in the same column, so I felt that clearing it and adding a tiny bit more lines wouldn't affect it that much. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 19:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What problem were you having with it before you added the clear template? Removing it makes everything work fine for me. Yohhans talk 18:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yay, you are back :) I moved the image to the left and shortened the description somewhat, but that still did not fix the problem. I then added {{clear}}, which fixed the problem, but made it look kind of odd. Can you check that out, please? NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 18:08, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh yes, that happens to me on mine as well. From the way the sections are set up, I don't think it is possible to fix without changing the structure of the article drastically. Honestly, since it doesn't make the edit links merge into each other on any resolution that I tried, I don't think it is a big deal. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 00:08, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm on a large widescreen (don't know the exact size, but you'd be happy to edit the encyclopedia on it :-)), and the table is pushing three edit tabs to the left. To be honest, I don't know if the problem can be resolved without taking the table out of that section. Note that I'm talking about the yearly table, not the percentage breakdown; that table is fine. Giants2008 (17-14) 23:54, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm, it isn't on mine. Can you tell me what size monitor you are using? I'll see if I can change to that and reformat it.
(outdent) Ah, I take it you're looking at this in 1280x1024 resolution. At a higher resolution (e.g. 1680x1050), there's a rather large gap of white space when using {{clear}}. How about this... Why not just move the table to below the Themes and topics subheading; make it centered and 80% width? Either that or remove the clear div and put up with slightly misaligned headings? I've taken the liberty of changing the layout to what I think is a decent solution. Feel free to revert; a little white space never hurt anyone. However, another idea is to remove it entirely... I mean, if a person really wants that information, they can just click through to the main topics article. *shrugs* Just a thought. - Yohhans talk 19:59, 6 May 2009 (UTC) Scratch that. That looks amazingly ugly. My personal opinion is that removing {{clear}} is the best option. But, then again, a little white space never hurt anyone. - Yohhans talk 20:03, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Scoring and winning: Take the en dash out of "near-perfect" and just use a regular hyphen.- Dashes confuse me. Fixed.
Controversies: "Three days before the 1995 Illinois state competition, Steinmetz obtained copies of the tests from the DeVry Institute of Technology where the state finals were being held." Comma before "where".- Done.
Virtual competition: Comma for 1300.- Done.
"Despite it being a virtual competition". The word "being" is somewhat awkward here. How about tryinig something like "Although it is a virtual competition"?- Changed to "Although it is only a virtual competition,"
After these are done, I plan on supporting. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:29, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I got all of these except for the one dealing with edit bunching, to which I left a followup. Thanks for your review. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 01:43, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Table is still forcing one edit button to the left, but that seems to be unavoidable due to the size of the table. Despite that, it's one of the best articles I've reviewed so far this year. It has clearly been written by someone with a passion for the subject, and it definitely looks comprehensive. Also seems pretty well-sourced; although there are a lot of primary sources, nothing looks overly contentious. All in all, fantastic work. Giants2008 (17-14) 16:35, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, I worked through this prior to being posted at FAC. I was already quite good, with due credit to everyone that worked on it before me. I think it's ready. --Laser brain (talk) 22:15, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:27, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This must have been linked relatively recently, as it wasn't there at the start of the nomination. I have disambiguated the link. NW (Talk) (How am I doing?) 00:16, 10 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:49, 9 May 2009 [2].
- Nominator(s): Bellhalla (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is another article about one of eight sister ships built for the American-Hawaiian Steamship Company in the 1910s. This ship served as a transport for the US Navy in World War I and was scuttled off one of the Normandy beaches as a breakwater during World War II. The article underwent a peer review and passed a Military History A-Class review. — Bellhalla (talk) 16:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- images All licences are free, however I would have concerns regarding the frequency of flag use in the infobox, why are these used in preference to stating the country per MOS? Fasach Nua (talk) 22:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- For ship infoboxes, a consensus method of identifying the registry of a non-military ship is by display of the civil ensign of the country of registry (through the use of
{{flagicon}}
). For military vessels, the larger flag in the header bar is the consensus method for identifying the navy for which the ship operated. (Unlike many other countries, the national and civil ensigns of the United States are identical to the national flag, which may make it appear redundant.) — Bellhalla (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- For ship infoboxes, a consensus method of identifying the registry of a non-military ship is by display of the civil ensign of the country of registry (through the use of
- Comment In the introduction" she reverted to her original name of Pennsylvanian. This makes it sound like the ship changed its own name, but it may be that it's supposed to be this way. Mm40 (talk | contribs) 01:01, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I can see how one might easily interpret the sentence that way, so I've reworded to make clear that American-Hawaiian (and not the ship!) instigated the name change. Thank you for you comment. — Bellhalla (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tech. Review -- there are no disambiguation links [dab finder tool], dead external links [links checker tool], nor errors in ref formatting [WP:REFTOOLS]--Truco 02:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you! Just the kind of comment I like to see :) — Bellhalla (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
What makes http://www.navsource.org/archives/12/173511.htm a reliable source?
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've replaced the NavSource citation with the Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships citation and another page from the Naval History & Heritage Command (formerly the Naval Historical Center) website. (As an aside, the information at NavSource is reliable—from my personal experience—even if it may not necessarily fulfill the requirements to be considered a "reliable source".) Thanks for the review. — Bellhalla (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This is an excellent article which meets the FA criteria. The level of detail is remarkable and the article is a good read and well illustrated. Nick-D (talk) 07:51, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Excellent article which meets the FA criteria. Cla68 (talk) 06:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Fine article, in keeping with its sisters. Karanacs (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 23:49, 9 May 2009 [3].
- Nominator(s): Scorpion0422 22:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The latest step in my evil plan to turn this site into Homerpedia. Enjoy. -- Scorpion0422 22:16, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose because article has zero references in the lead. This is very bad style. TeH nOmInAtOr (talk) 01:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not an actionable oppose per the featured article criteria. There is no requirement for citations in an article's lead, as it is just a summary of the article's content. Maralia (talk) 01:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If anything, no lead cites would be a plus, since it shows that the lead is a proper summary of the article. Wizardman 21:36, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not an actionable oppose per the featured article criteria. There is no requirement for citations in an article's lead, as it is just a summary of the article's content. Maralia (talk) 01:53, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment -- The ref formatting (checked with the WP:REFTOOLS script) is up to standards, as are the disambiguation (checked with the dab finder tool).
Fix the 1 dead external link, however (checked with the links checker tool).--Truco 03:03, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- Damn Make a Wish Foundation... I don't suppose this would be a suitable substitute? -- Scorpion0422 03:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it would, the site looks legit to me and looking at their about us section, it seems reliable. --Truco 03:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Damn Make a Wish Foundation... I don't suppose this would be a suitable substitute? -- Scorpion0422 03:14, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
http://wishla.org/news_art10.asp deadlinks
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Replaced with [4], thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 22:19, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments mostly nitpicks, from Ceranthor (talk · contribs):
- Link American to United States, feature film, voice actor
- Her mother, Miriam, died late in the summer of 1978, two weeks before the move to California - before the move is informal. Suggest re-wording of sentence.
- She won the part, and later worked with Hunt on several other projects - Replace won, also informal.
More later, those were my initial nitpicks. Ceranllama chat post 21:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, done and done. Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 21:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I delinked American. See WP:OVERLINK about linking common geographical terms. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:28, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Nitpicks have been brought up by Karanacs, and have, for the most most part, been resolved. Ceranllama chat post 20:03, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review File:The Simpsons star.jpg - The uploader and the author are not the same person, so we cannot be sure that the author has actually released the rights. Can you contact them and ask them to leave a note on the image description page and sign it? Awadewit (talk) 21:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- The reason is that the uploader decided to be a dick and made me upload a new file and relink to it rather than just let me straighten the image. This is the original file. -- Scorpion0422 21:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Still waiting on the note. Awadewit (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added the original image to the "other versions" field. Does that work? -- Scorpion0422 03:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The uploader and author of the original image aren't the same, either. Awadewit (talk) 04:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's because the uploader uploaded it under an impossibly long name, so I asked an admin if they could move it to a shorter one. -- Scorpion0422 13:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please ask the author of the image to leave a signed note at the image description page saying that they release the image under the specified license. We cannot assume that the author released anything at this point, since the uploader is different. (It does not matter why this disconnect has occurred - we have to find a way to rectify it.) Awadewit (talk) 18:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll ask, but I don't know how well it will go over. Just to make things go quicker, should I replace it with a different image (like this one) for now? -- Scorpion0422 18:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The replacement would be fine, but I encourage you to ask the author of the other one to leave a note. That way, the image can be used without problems in other articles. Awadewit (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Image replaced with File:Walk of fame - The Simpsons.jpg, [5]. Cirt (talk) 00:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Image issues resolved. Awadewit (talk) 22:11, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Image replaced with File:Walk of fame - The Simpsons.jpg, [5]. Cirt (talk) 00:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The replacement would be fine, but I encourage you to ask the author of the other one to leave a note. That way, the image can be used without problems in other articles. Awadewit (talk) 19:06, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll ask, but I don't know how well it will go over. Just to make things go quicker, should I replace it with a different image (like this one) for now? -- Scorpion0422 18:59, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please ask the author of the image to leave a signed note at the image description page saying that they release the image under the specified license. We cannot assume that the author released anything at this point, since the uploader is different. (It does not matter why this disconnect has occurred - we have to find a way to rectify it.) Awadewit (talk) 18:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's because the uploader uploaded it under an impossibly long name, so I asked an admin if they could move it to a shorter one. -- Scorpion0422 13:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The uploader and author of the original image aren't the same, either. Awadewit (talk) 04:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added the original image to the "other versions" field. Does that work? -- Scorpion0422 03:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Still waiting on the note. Awadewit (talk) 03:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The reason is that the uploader decided to be a dick and made me upload a new file and relink to it rather than just let me straighten the image. This is the original file. -- Scorpion0422 21:15, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - I would like to suggest that the editors add a fair use clip of Cartwright's Bart voice. She is famous for that voice, after all, and a brief clip would be a good addition, in my opinion. Awadewit (talk) 21:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added this myself. Please let me know what you think. Awadewit (talk) 04:32, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That works, thank you. I have no idea how to do things like that and I was going to ask someone, but I kept forgetting. -- Scorpion0422 13:41, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning toward support. I thought the article as a whole was pretty well-written and interesting. A few things that need to be addressed:
Quotations should have a citation at the end of the sentence, even if that means that the cite is duplicated in subsequent sentences.- I added in a few extra citations. Did I miss any?
I'm a little confused at the chronology in the Personal life section. It says that she married her husband in 1988 but then says she join the church of Scientology in 1989 while looking for a relationship- I agree that that part is confusing, but it's what the sources say. There are multiple sources that say she got married in 1988 and multiple sources that say she joined in 1989. The article is a direct interview and it's on newsbank if you want to try finding it. My guess is that she was just affiliated with the church for several years before finally becoming a full member in '89.
- It might be possible to get rid of the apparent inconsistency of her marrying in 1988 and seemingly looking for a husband in 1989. In [6] she says, talking about why she became a Scientologist, "I was rapidly approaching 30 and I wanted to get married and have kids. I thought that maybe I could find a relationship by going to a church." Her birth date is October 1957, as per our article, so if she was "rapidly approaching 30" she must have started going to Scientology churches before October 1987. We could drop the confusing 1989 reference, along those lines: 'Cartwright was raised a Roman Catholic[67]. A Scientologist today, she became involved with the Church of Scientology in her late twenties, depressed that she did not have a "committed relationship", wanting to get married and have children. She thought ...' Some such wording would avoid the apparent contradiction. Jayen466 22:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree that that part is confusing, but it's what the sources say. There are multiple sources that say she got married in 1988 and multiple sources that say she joined in 1989. The article is a direct interview and it's on newsbank if you want to try finding it. My guess is that she was just affiliated with the church for several years before finally becoming a full member in '89.
- I think a whole paragraph on the Scientology phone call from earlier this year is overkill. That's more text than is devoted to some pieces of her career. Can this be shortened to, say, two sentences?
Karanacs (talk) 18:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it did generate more media attention than a lot of the rest of her career. I've trimmed a few sentences out of it, is it better now?
- Thanks a lot for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 02:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the paragraph on the phone call is still much too detailed. I understand that it got a lot of press, but in the long run, how important is this actually? The article admits that it was blown way out of proportion. If it's really not that important an event in her career, then it shouldn't warrant such a lot of text in the article. Karanacs (talk) 13:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've trimmed a few more sentences out. Is there anything specific in that bit that you think could be removed? -- Scorpion0422 14:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It can be trimmed further without losing any of the intended meaning. The quote is probably unnecessary; we already have the description of it as an introduction, so it could instead read: "She introduced the message in Bart's voice, before using her normal voice in most of the rest of the message." The second part that could be cut is: "In a 2000 interview with The Oregonian..." We don't need to know this; the paper is a reliable source, so we don't need that level of attribution; instead the sentence can open with: "Cartwright explained..." Steve T • C 15:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think it needs to be mentioned that the interview is from 2000, and not a response to the controversy. -- Scorpion0422 01:37, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It can be trimmed further without losing any of the intended meaning. The quote is probably unnecessary; we already have the description of it as an introduction, so it could instead read: "She introduced the message in Bart's voice, before using her normal voice in most of the rest of the message." The second part that could be cut is: "In a 2000 interview with The Oregonian..." We don't need to know this; the paper is a reliable source, so we don't need that level of attribution; instead the sentence can open with: "Cartwright explained..." Steve T • C 15:43, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've trimmed a few more sentences out. Is there anything specific in that bit that you think could be removed? -- Scorpion0422 14:23, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think the paragraph on the phone call is still much too detailed. I understand that it got a lot of press, but in the long run, how important is this actually? The article admits that it was blown way out of proportion. If it's really not that important an event in her career, then it shouldn't warrant such a lot of text in the article. Karanacs (talk) 13:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Prose is passable, from a quick look through. Here are a few random points. There are surely many others. An unfamiliar copy-editor would find them more easily.
- Overlinked, at least at the opening. Infobox: Many US writers would prefer "United States" rather than "you dot es dot". I agree when it's right at the top, first time. Shouldn't be linked, I think. The days of linking words such as "film", "television" and "actor" are over. (Can these items not have capitalised initials in the infobox?). "Voice artist" I've left linked, and now it's not crowded out by the low-value ones in that sentence; but then it's linked again a few seconds later, this time piped to "voice actor", an irritation if a reader clicks on both expecting different destinations. Choose one to link. Why is "Database" piped to "List of recurring characters in the Simpsons"? Can you make it more explicit, or link instead in the "See also" section, where there's space to elucidate?
- In terms of the overlinking, those were likely added by someone else as I usually avoid linking common terms. As for Database, the link goes to his section at the recurring page. The character does not have an individual page, so the section has to do.
- "the series' creator"—I'd drop the apostrophe. "allowed her to audition for Bart, and offered her the role on the spot"—smoother without the comma?
- Done.
- half-hour show
- Fixed.
- Start of first section: by now, "Dayton, Ohio" has been linked three times. Are you a fan of this location?
- Removed, but Dayton isn't really a well-known city, so I figured the links didn't hurt.
- "Cartwright described Butler as "absolutely amazing, always encouraging, [and] always polite"." You might consider not inserting the square-bracketed "and"—kind of nice rhythm without.
- Done.
- "to do voice work" ... English can be a dull thud, can't it.
- "easy to perform compared to other characters"—the repetition can be avoided by "with other", and some would prefer this when contrasting.
- Done.
- I don't particularly like the staccato quotation technique in such parts as "The Simpsons". No big deal, though, but if you can paraphrase a few to break down the density, all the better. "freaks [them] out" sticks out because it's very informal, and requires the insertion—that's a candidate for a more formal wording to paraphrase; look for others too? Tony (talk) 16:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 01:37, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Conditional support This article appears comprehensive and is well-written. I will fully support once the image issue is resolved. I would also suggest adding a sentence back to the Scientology phone call paragraph. The reader ends up with Groening's comment that the issue had been "blown up beyond what was intended" but there is no description of the press coverage that would necessitate him making this comment. Awadewit (talk) 18:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I still think that the Scientology paragraph needs this additional sentence. Awadewit (talk) 22:11, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support prose, comprehensiveness and balance are about right. Be nice to sort out the image as per Awadewit, these things can be frustrating. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Question Has anyone tried to track down the sources listed under Cartwright's entry here? They may be helpful in resolving the apparent contradiction between the fact that she joined Scientology in 1989 looking for a husband, but actually got married in 1988. Zagalejo^^^ 22:59, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
FAC#3 - Is a piece of non free content in which 80% of which is dedicated to covering another actor justified under NFCC? Fasach Nua (talk) 21:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- We need context for the quote. Please note that this audio clip is 26 seconds of an episode which is about 20 minutes long. Awadewit (talk) 21:23, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My concern is not context it is NFCC, why is the quote needed at all, if that can be justified then context can be considered. Fasach Nua (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, she is a voice actress and Bart is her most famous voice, so I think an example of her voice is beneficial. The clip shows her range and includes "eat my shorts", which is discussed in the text. -- Scorpion0422 20:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree. All of this is explained in the fair use rationale: "To provide the reader a demonstration of Cartwright's voicing of Bart Simpson, the character she is best known for, since her performance cannot be described using words alone. Cartwright was responsible for introducing Bart's catchphrase, "Eat my shorts", as she felt it was appropriate for the character." Awadewit (talk) 02:43, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- oppose - FAC#3, I cant see this clip passing nfcc#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please explain your oppose - why doesn't it meet #8? (To be clear, I feel that it does meet #8 since Cartwright is famous specifically for her voice, so having a recording is essential in my opinion. Her voice cannot be described in words.) Awadewit (talk) 20:33, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- oppose - FAC#3, I cant see this clip passing nfcc#8 Fasach Nua (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree. All of this is explained in the fair use rationale: "To provide the reader a demonstration of Cartwright's voicing of Bart Simpson, the character she is best known for, since her performance cannot be described using words alone. Cartwright was responsible for introducing Bart's catchphrase, "Eat my shorts", as she felt it was appropriate for the character." Awadewit (talk) 02:43, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, she is a voice actress and Bart is her most famous voice, so I think an example of her voice is beneficial. The clip shows her range and includes "eat my shorts", which is discussed in the text. -- Scorpion0422 20:59, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My concern is not context it is NFCC, why is the quote needed at all, if that can be justified then context can be considered. Fasach Nua (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support after some MoS fixes. I can't believe I never noticed she played Ethel in Twilight Zone: The Movie. "It's time for you to go away now, Ethel..." Creepy. --Laser brain (talk) 20:38, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Given this is promotion/archiving day, I'm going to go on a limb and support its promotion. It still needs a very minor copyedit in places, which I'm in the middle of (feel free to disagree with any of my choices), but should this be promoted (or "failed") before I'm done (at some point this evening), I'll still finish that off. Nice work, Steve T • C 15:12, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Excellent article, one that Cartwright herself should be pleased with. Not to suggest that it favors her, but it appears to be quite comprehensive. --Moni3 (talk) 23:09, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:55, 5 May 2009 [7].
- Nominator(s): Ricardiana (talk) 04:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because, after passing GA and receiving a very helpful peer review, I believe that it fulfills the featured article criteria. Even if I'm wrong about that, I have done a lot of work on the article and I am eager to keep improving it. Ricardiana (talk) 04:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note. User Fasach Nua has just placed a tag on this article for possibly excessive image use. I would just like to note that the use of these images was discussed at some length in the peer review. I believe that this tag is unnecessary, but I don't wish to remove it peremptorily, so I would welcome input. Ricardiana (talk) 06:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the tag as I believe it is unnecessary. Each non-free image has a very detailed fair use rationale that meets WP:NFCC. Awadewit (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support: This article underwent a very thorough peer review, and in this process developed from being a generally good article to an excellent one. Many issues were discussed and resolved, and I have no hesitation in saying it now meets all the FA criteria. There is evidently one dablink that needs fixing, by the way.
- I have tried to fix this link - I believe it is fixed, but for some reason it keeps showing up on the list of disambiguated links. The only occurrence of "hybrid" that is linked is in the lead; I changed this to "hybrid electric vehicle|hybrid" and then just to "hybrid electric vehicle," but for some reason it keeps showing up. Maybe somebody can see what I'm doing wrong? Ricardiana (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The troublesome link was in the Cultural impact section, not the lead. I've fixed it now. Brianboulton (talk) 17:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Agh, how did I miss that? - that was stupid of me. Never mind - thank you very much, Brianboulton. Ricardiana (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The troublesome link was in the Cultural impact section, not the lead. I've fixed it now. Brianboulton (talk) 17:06, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have tried to fix this link - I believe it is fixed, but for some reason it keeps showing up on the list of disambiguated links. The only occurrence of "hybrid" that is linked is in the lead; I changed this to "hybrid electric vehicle|hybrid" and then just to "hybrid electric vehicle," but for some reason it keeps showing up. Maybe somebody can see what I'm doing wrong? Ricardiana (talk) 16:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- On images, this was a major area of discussion at PR. My belief is that the images now in the article under FU rationales all significantly increase readers' understanding of the subject. During her long fictitious lifetime Nancy had many makeovers, which are well-described in the text, but the effect is much enhanced through having visual evidence of how these chages were presented. Although fve non-free images is a lot in one article, I think that they are all justifiied in this case. Brianboulton (talk) 13:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The images only represent one individual's interpretation of the the makeovers, and as to whether one anons interpretation in significant (#8) is questionable. They can be easily described as text (#1) as you have admitted, minimal use seems to have gone out the window, this is not plausible as a FAC and would recommend recommend a more appropriate forum would be Wikipedia:GAR Fasach Nua (talk) 18:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is not the case - please read the article and the fair use rationales. They cite Nancy Drew scholarship. If you are going to dispute the images, please explain which one and why in detail. Thanks. (GAR is completely inappropriate when your only complaint is the images, by the way.) Awadewit (talk) 18:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fasach Nua, you are incorrect. The article does not rely on "one individual's interpretation" and the sources are not from "anons" as you suggest. I cite both Jennifer Stowe and Karen Plunkett-Powell. As Awadewit points out, please explain which images you find objectionable and why. Ricardiana (talk) 04:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There are quite a few other commentaries on the web or book reviews/articles that have commented on the covers, such as MSNBC and Library of Maryland University, so I do believe illustrating the notable portrayals can be warranted. However, as far as I can tell, there are only three notable artists for this series: Tandy, Gillies, and Nappi. Each artist's style should be represented only once to avoid undue weightage or excessive use of copyrighted images. It would be best to identify the artist in the FUR, even though Simon and Schuster owns the copyrights now. To qualify for fair use, the FURs should focus on the styles identified with the artists, and more on the atmosphere associated with the drawing and aspects of the age of the protagonist if it qualifies. As such:
- File:Origndths.jpg is fine in this aspect
- File:Secondndths.jpg too is okay
- File:Ndtsmitpbkcvr.jpg falls short of the mark. "Passive" and "blank, lost in thought" might be easily conceived. Is there other critical aspect of Nappi's art that can be expressed with this or other covers? Would "bobby-soxer ... a contemporary sixteen-year-old. This Nancy was perky, clean-cut, and extremely animated" be a better concept to illustrate with a cover?
- Of other covers (I presume these are by unknown artists?)
- File:Ndharh.jpg: the covers should be talked of in the main text. This image does not seem to be talked about. The caption is a separate entity and, in my opinion, not of great weightage (significance) to claim for fair use. This cover might not be a good choice for the purpose stated. While skimpiness is displayed, Drew's sight is not particularly directed at the "hunk"... She is looking at the reader (if she is eying the guy, her eyeballs would be at the edge of her eyes). Side note on the caption: why should the young man investigate a clue rather than ogle a nubile young girl?
- File:Ndtcotvv.jpg is a bit of the same; the FUR's text description (breathless, frenetic energy, hunted) is quite descriptive on its own. The cover does not seem to convey the same impact. Here she just looks startled by someone who shouted behind her or tapped her shoulder...
- Other points
- Should the identifying image not be Tandy's cover, the first publication? Why not use the latest icon for the series, if any (as far as I understand it, Tandy created a silhouette detective, and Gillies updated it with a coloured bust shot)?
- Why are File:ND1tsotoc.JPG and File:Ndtcotvv.jpg enlarged in size? Undoubtably, the blown up images are of low resolution, but I do not see why one should be exposed to jaggies and mosaics...
- File:ND1tsotoc.JPG and File:Secondndths.jpg are both Gillies' work. Only one is needed.
- In short, my opinion is to keep Tandy's and Gillies' covers that are in the text for commentaries, look for another better cover to illustrate Nappi's portrayal, eliminate or re-evaluate the FUR for the anonymous covers, take away Gillies's The Secret of the Old Clock cover and replace it with an icon identified with the series. Jappalang (talk) 02:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There are quite a few other commentaries on the web or book reviews/articles that have commented on the covers, such as MSNBC and Library of Maryland University, so I do believe illustrating the notable portrayals can be warranted. However, as far as I can tell, there are only three notable artists for this series: Tandy, Gillies, and Nappi. Each artist's style should be represented only once to avoid undue weightage or excessive use of copyrighted images. It would be best to identify the artist in the FUR, even though Simon and Schuster owns the copyrights now. To qualify for fair use, the FURs should focus on the styles identified with the artists, and more on the atmosphere associated with the drawing and aspects of the age of the protagonist if it qualifies. As such:
- File:Ndtsmitpbkcvr.jpg illustrates a concept, passivity, whose easy conception is I think a matter of opinion. Illustrating a different Nappi cover could work, except that Stowe's overarching thesis as laid out in the beginning of the section is that Nancy is portrayed as increasingly less active. Showing an earlier Nappi cover of a perky Nancy would not, I believe, adequately illustrate Stowe's point.
- Further, this cover is one of those that Stowe herself uses, which was my original reason for choosing it. See Stowe (1999), 35. Ricardiana (talk) 03:13, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- File:Ndharh.jpg is talked about in the main text, under the section "Evolution of character," sub-section "1980–2003." Yes, the artist is unknown. Regarding the caption: the grammatical subject here is Nancy Drew, not the young man and the point of the caption is that Nancy is here shown in relation to a man rather than, as before, in relation to a clue. I will change the wording to avoid implying anything about the position of her eyes.
- File:Ndtcotvv.jpg The more relevant text here, as given in the FUR, is not the part about "frenetic energy" but "Nancy does not have any control over the events that are happening in these covers. She is shown to be a victim, being hunted and attacked by unseen foes.' Nancy is also sometimes pursued by a visibly threatening foe, as on the cover of The Case of the Vanishing Veil.""
- As explained in the FUR, the identifying image is used because this particular cover is the single most disseminated pictorial depiction of the character. The MSNBC source that you linked refers to this picture specically and calls it "prototypical." It is the image used on the new "Girl Detective" series covers and it is the image of the best-selling Drew book. Other silhouettes or images are not as widely-disseminated as this one.
- The cover of "The Secret of the Old Clock" shown in the article is by Rudy Nappi, not Bill Gillies. As such, of the five covers, only one artist's work is repeated: Rudy Nappi. As the ND illustrator with the longest tenure, Nappi was in the unusual position of sometimes updating his own covers from one decade to another; any representation of ND's visual portrayal that only gave one Nappi cover would therefore have a bit of a gap in it. The two covers chosen are: 1, the cover of the most widely-disseminated version of the single best-selling ND volume whose image is more widely-disseminated than any other image, symbol, or icon, and 2, a later cover in Nappi's later style to fairly represent the argument of the source being cited. Ricardiana (talk) 02:50, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not every portrayal of Drew is required to be illustrated, even if notable. If the identifying image is by Nappi, then I do not really see a need for another Nappi image, especially one that is showing "passiveness" (doing nothing), which does not require imagery. Notable copyrighted images might still fail free use because they are used to portray something that is adequately described by words alone. Jappalang (talk) 03:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not illustrating every portrayal of Drew - as one glaring example, I have left out any illustration of the current incarnation of ND in the "Girl Detective" series, although I do, of course, mention it in the article. The Nappi image used in the section on ND's visual portrayal is, I believe, necessary in that it is typical of a trend of moving away from active/confident portrayals to passive, fearful ones, and I might note that Awadewit and Brianboulton seem to agree. Ricardiana (talk) 04:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not every portrayal of Drew is required to be illustrated, even if notable. If the identifying image is by Nappi, then I do not really see a need for another Nappi image, especially one that is showing "passiveness" (doing nothing), which does not require imagery. Notable copyrighted images might still fail free use because they are used to portray something that is adequately described by words alone. Jappalang (talk) 03:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Would this Master's dissertation qualify as a reliable source for analysis on Drew's portrayals? If not, surely the sources it used are reliable enough to boost the critical analysis in this article, right? Jappalang (talk) 02:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The thesis is by Jennifer Stowe and is cited repeatedly in the article as the most sustained and substantive discussion of Nancy Drew's visual portrayal. As it is already cited numerous times, and nothing more substantive is available, I'm not sure that I can "boost" things more without engaging in original research. Ricardiana (talk) 02:35, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I failed to spot the author. Since Fasach Nua's opposition is based on the singular source of image critical analysis, perhaps as I suggested, you can find the books Stowe researched from and find further commentary that she chose to leave out in her thesis? Jappalang (talk) 03:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have already looked into this. Stowe's sources are very general ones and none of them mention Drew. Also, Fasach Nua is wrong that I am relying on only one source; the section on ND's physical depiction relies primarily on two sources, the afore-mentioned Stowe and Karen Plunkett-Powell's Nancy Drew Scrapbook. Ricardiana (talk) 04:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Have you considered Cheryl Homme's Storybook culture? Although I am uncertain how much academic or scholarship weightage Collectors Press has. Jappalang (talk) 03:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am familiar with the work. I will take another look, but in my recollection this is mostly a coffee-table book filled with glossy photos and little to no commentary. Ricardiana (talk) 04:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As I recalled, this is a coffee-table book of little substance. The few half-pages devoted to Drew discuss how Tandy portrays Nancy as a fashionable young adult and how Gillies and Nappi portray her as a teenager. This information, such as it is, is already in the article. Ricardiana (talk) 04:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I would like to reiterate that I think the FURs represent Nancy Drew scholarship (something very few FURs do, by the way) as well as the way that most introductory lectures on ND explain the physical evolution of the character. I have given a fair number of these lectures in my time and I actually use most of these book covers (particular covers have become iconic). I think that we are introducing new standards in this FAC. Since when do we require multiple scholarly sources in a FUR? Awadewit (talk) 06:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Eh, I am not talking about FURs. Fasach Nua said, "The images only represent one individual's interpretation of the the makeovers, and as to whether one anons interpretation in significant (#8) is questionable.", which I take to mean that he find the opinion of a single person (of perhaps unknown reputation) to be of little weight to support several copyrighted images. In other words, if we find other reviews/analysis of the cover art from several other reliable sources and integrate them into the article, each art style of Drew is expounded on in greater detail (increasing comprehensiveness and probably the chance that there is some metaphysical quality a reviewer might be attributing to the image that would require imagery for clarity), thus increasing the significance of an image to support the commentary. Jappalang (talk) 06:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please read the article. The article cites more than one source re: ND's physical depiction and no sources are "anonymous." This is 100% factually incorrect. Further, there are no other sources to cite. You have dredged up as a suggestion for "further sources" the very source that I in fact cite, multiple times, in the article; when that was pointed out you dredged up a coffee-table book wholly lacking the analysis you feel this article lacks. You do not appear to have read the article closely, as evidenced by such statements as "File:Ndharh.jpg: the covers should be talked of in the main text. This image does not seem to be talked about" when in fact it is talked about, and you are applying standards which are subjective and in the application of which you are in the minority. Until I hear better rationales than those you have offered, and a demonstrated familiarity with the actual text of the article and the citations therein, I will not be removing this image. If you would like to express your opinion in the form of a formal "oppose" vote, please do so. If the article fails FA on this ground, so be it. I stand by my use of sources, and my rationales for the images. Ricardiana (talk) 06:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fasach's views are not mine. Yes, I know you have already stated that you used mostly comments from two sources—"the section on ND's physical depiction relies primarily on two sources", but I am pointing out his opinion to offer ways for you to overcome his oppose. The only ideas of mine on the article I have given so far are what I thought of the non-free images, which if you do read them, talked nothing about the "insignificance of a singular reviewer". I feel addressing what I think are the issues with the copyrighted images might help resolve Fasach Nua's issues as well (since doing so either removes images or increases their FURs in some way or the other). Jappalang (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I see; well, my apologies for misconstruing your comments. I guess I got a little hot under the collar there; I apologize. However, I'm not sure if Fasach's opinion can be addressed, as it is so briefly expressed that I don't have much to go on. Yes, adding sources would indeed be helpful, but regrettably there really are no others. I have searched library databases country-wide, done inter-library loans, searched article databases such as MLA, ProjectMuse, JStor, LexisNexis, and Gerritson; I have searched using a number of different keywords through Google Books and regular Google; I'm just coming up dry here. You seem to be okay with all the images except for the cover to "The Strange Message in the Parchment" - I added more from Stowe on this cover specifically. I can't think of anything else to do except to perhaps leave a message at Fasach's talk page and reiterate the request for him or her to elaborate on their objections. Again, I apologize for getting snippy; I see now what you're trying to do and I appreciate your help. Mea culpa.... Ricardiana (talk) 07:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fasach's views are not mine. Yes, I know you have already stated that you used mostly comments from two sources—"the section on ND's physical depiction relies primarily on two sources", but I am pointing out his opinion to offer ways for you to overcome his oppose. The only ideas of mine on the article I have given so far are what I thought of the non-free images, which if you do read them, talked nothing about the "insignificance of a singular reviewer". I feel addressing what I think are the issues with the copyrighted images might help resolve Fasach Nua's issues as well (since doing so either removes images or increases their FURs in some way or the other). Jappalang (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please read the article. The article cites more than one source re: ND's physical depiction and no sources are "anonymous." This is 100% factually incorrect. Further, there are no other sources to cite. You have dredged up as a suggestion for "further sources" the very source that I in fact cite, multiple times, in the article; when that was pointed out you dredged up a coffee-table book wholly lacking the analysis you feel this article lacks. You do not appear to have read the article closely, as evidenced by such statements as "File:Ndharh.jpg: the covers should be talked of in the main text. This image does not seem to be talked about" when in fact it is talked about, and you are applying standards which are subjective and in the application of which you are in the minority. Until I hear better rationales than those you have offered, and a demonstrated familiarity with the actual text of the article and the citations therein, I will not be removing this image. If you would like to express your opinion in the form of a formal "oppose" vote, please do so. If the article fails FA on this ground, so be it. I stand by my use of sources, and my rationales for the images. Ricardiana (talk) 06:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Eh, I am not talking about FURs. Fasach Nua said, "The images only represent one individual's interpretation of the the makeovers, and as to whether one anons interpretation in significant (#8) is questionable.", which I take to mean that he find the opinion of a single person (of perhaps unknown reputation) to be of little weight to support several copyrighted images. In other words, if we find other reviews/analysis of the cover art from several other reliable sources and integrate them into the article, each art style of Drew is expounded on in greater detail (increasing comprehensiveness and probably the chance that there is some metaphysical quality a reviewer might be attributing to the image that would require imagery for clarity), thus increasing the significance of an image to support the commentary. Jappalang (talk) 06:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I would like to reiterate that I think the FURs represent Nancy Drew scholarship (something very few FURs do, by the way) as well as the way that most introductory lectures on ND explain the physical evolution of the character. I have given a fair number of these lectures in my time and I actually use most of these book covers (particular covers have become iconic). I think that we are introducing new standards in this FAC. Since when do we require multiple scholarly sources in a FUR? Awadewit (talk) 06:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As I recalled, this is a coffee-table book of little substance. The few half-pages devoted to Drew discuss how Tandy portrays Nancy as a fashionable young adult and how Gillies and Nappi portray her as a teenager. This information, such as it is, is already in the article. Ricardiana (talk) 04:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am familiar with the work. I will take another look, but in my recollection this is mostly a coffee-table book filled with glossy photos and little to no commentary. Ricardiana (talk) 04:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, I failed to spot the author. Since Fasach Nua's opposition is based on the singular source of image critical analysis, perhaps as I suggested, you can find the books Stowe researched from and find further commentary that she chose to leave out in her thesis? Jappalang (talk) 03:38, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The thesis is by Jennifer Stowe and is cited repeatedly in the article as the most sustained and substantive discussion of Nancy Drew's visual portrayal. As it is already cited numerous times, and nothing more substantive is available, I'm not sure that I can "boost" things more without engaging in original research. Ricardiana (talk) 02:35, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Would this Master's dissertation qualify as a reliable source for analysis on Drew's portrayals? If not, surely the sources it used are reliable enough to boost the critical analysis in this article, right? Jappalang (talk) 02:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This is an excellent article. It is comprehensive and well-researched (being familiar with Nancy Drew scholarship, I know that it represents the major scholarly points of view on the topic). It is also well-written and well-illustrated. To properly show the changes in how Nancy Drew has been illustrated over time, it is necessary to have the five non-free images in the article. I believe that the non-free rationales explain in detail why each image is necessary. I hope to see more such articles from Ricardiana! Awadewit (talk) 18:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support The article is remarkably comprehensive. The rationale for fair use seems clear to me: each image represents a distinct phase in the evolution of Nancy Drew's appearance, and the characteristics of that evolution are cited to reliable sources. To leave any one of the pictures out would impede the reader's understanding of the different phases.
I just have one other comment: check to make sure that the use of quotation marks complies with Wikipedia:MOS#Quotation_marks; for instance, "Nancy Drew and Daughter." should be "Nancy Drew and Daughter". I would also replace the curly marks “”‘’ with straight ones ""''.Lesgles (talk) 15:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Lesgles, for spotting the quotation marks - I thought I had caught all of those but obviously I was wrong. I'll get to work on that ASAP, thanks. Ricardiana (talk) 16:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I've fixed them all now. Ricardiana (talk) 17:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I caught a few stragglers; looks good now. Lesgles (talk) 03:15, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think I've fixed them all now. Ricardiana (talk) 17:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, Lesgles, for spotting the quotation marks - I thought I had caught all of those but obviously I was wrong. I'll get to work on that ASAP, thanks. Ricardiana (talk) 16:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - Like Awadewit, I agree that this is an incredible article, and that Ricardiana seems to have quite a future in this field. Please keep it up, we could use more 20th century literature articles. Ceranthor 19:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - (a) I agree with Ceranthor above; go to The Sword of Shannara next? ;) (b) I thought that block quotations had to be led into with a colon or the end of a sentence, as continuing a sentence
like this
- was not very cohesive. —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 20:04, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is that a comment or a formal "oppose" vote? Also, what do you suggest needs to be done to make the article more "cohesive"? Ricardiana (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Never mind -- my bad/stupid. Yes, that's a rule often taught; I don't know, however, that it's required by any style manual. I'll look over the blockquotations and see if any can be better segued into. Ricardiana (talk) 22:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hmm. I just took a look at all the block quotations and as far as I can see most of them are led into with a colon. Those that aren't are led into as part of a sentence, which is how my graduate school profs have told me to do it and also, according to them, what literary journals expect. Ricardiana (talk) 22:43, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Never mind -- my bad/stupid. Yes, that's a rule often taught; I don't know, however, that it's required by any style manual. I'll look over the blockquotations and see if any can be better segued into. Ricardiana (talk) 22:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
Newspapers titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}}, use the work field for the title of the paper, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes the paper.The Lapin ref is lacking a publisher. What makes this a reliable source?- What makes http://www.literarture.net/catalogue/view/1 a reliable source?
- What makes http://www.bookloversden.com/series/girls/Drew/Drew.html a reliable source? Also lacks a publisher
- Likewise http://www.nancydrewworld.com/, what makes this reliable? And needs a publisher
- Likewise http://www.series-books.com/ (Needs publsher also)
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:14, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have fixed the news sources.
- The Lapin piece was originally published in Books at Iowa and is, along with a number of other pieces by Lapin, indexed in the MLA Directory of Periodicals. I have edited the entry to reflect the origin of the essay.
- The Literarture source is the only source for this info. It's not terribly important and can be removed from the article if others agree.
- The last three sources you mention are web sites written, respectively, by Sharon Reid Harris, Lea Shangraw Fox, and Jennifer White. They do not have publishers, beyond perhaps the web host. Shangraw Fox's web site is the premier source of info on international publications of Nancy Drew books; more "reliable" sources, such as the essay on the French translations of ND recently published in Nancy Drew and Her Sister Sleuths (2008) has little info compared to what Shangraw Fox has. Also, I'll have to get the book and check, but I think that that essay even cites Shangraw Fox. As for Reid Harris and White, their sites are used primarily because there's a severe dearth of info on the ND Files, and Reid Harris and White are nearly the only sources that talk about them; the previous-to-me version of this article acted as if the only ND books were the first 56 hardcovers (see talk page, for example), and I was trying to change that. While not the most scholarly sources, they provide needed info, and I'm not willing to ditch them just to get a little bronze star on my userpage. Ricardiana (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with the last three sources is that they need to satisfy WP:SPS, our guidelines on Self-published sources. To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I see. Well, I'll do my best to dig up some info to help establish the reliability of these sources, or replace them. Re: Shangraw Fox, she is mentioned and cited on Jennifer Fisher's Nancy Drew Sleuths website (Fisher has a book deal in the works); she has spoken at Nancy Drew conventions; and she is cited in an article published in the Los Angeles Times available at http://articles.latimes.com/2002/may/31/news/lv-nancydrew31. I'll look into the others momentarily. Ricardiana (talk) 18:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to get shot for this, but strongly suggest you contact Awadewit for some help with those sites, she's much more clued into literature and author type stuff than I am. (My interest in authors ends (unless it's science fiction) sometime before Thomas Aquinas) Ealdgyth - Talk 19:04, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I see. I'll impose on her good will one more time and post a message on her talk page. In the meantime, my info on Reid Harris is that she presented at the 2005 Nancy Drew Conference, along with such published ND scholars as Melanie Rehak, Geoffrey Lapin, James Keeline, and Leslie McFarlane (Hardy Boys author) biographer Marilyn Greenwald. The conference program is available at Jenn Fisher's website here: http://www.nancydrewsleuth.com/nancydrew75conference.html Ricardiana (talk) 19:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Re: White, I've removed those citations and was able to replace one with an article published in The Lion and the Unicorn. Ricardiana (talk) 01:18, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Reid Harris - I'm unpersuaded by the Nancy Drew conference, since that is not academic. Perhaps she presented at ChLA as well? Awadewit (talk) 01:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not to my knowledge. Fine; in that case I will remove the references to her site and work with what I can say without needing a source, as there's really not much out there on the Files. Ricardiana (talk) 02:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- White: Replaced by Lion and the Unicorn - preeminent children's lit journal Awadewit (talk) 01:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fox: website cited by the LA Times - meets WP:SPS (barely); if it is true that the recently published essay mentioned above cites this website and Fox, I would feel much better about including this reference Awadewit (talk) 01:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The essay I mentioned, on the French Nancy Drews, does indeed cite Shangraw Fox. I just came from upstairs and I forget the page number - 62 or 72. But it's there. Ricardiana (talk) 02:17, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So, bottom line: a)replaced White with journal article; b) replaced Reid Harris with newspaper article; c) Shangraw Fox is cited in both books and newspaper articles. Ricardiana (talk) 03:43, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Reid Harris - I'm unpersuaded by the Nancy Drew conference, since that is not academic. Perhaps she presented at ChLA as well? Awadewit (talk) 01:53, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm going to get shot for this, but strongly suggest you contact Awadewit for some help with those sites, she's much more clued into literature and author type stuff than I am. (My interest in authors ends (unless it's science fiction) sometime before Thomas Aquinas) Ealdgyth - Talk 19:04, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I see. Well, I'll do my best to dig up some info to help establish the reliability of these sources, or replace them. Re: Shangraw Fox, she is mentioned and cited on Jennifer Fisher's Nancy Drew Sleuths website (Fisher has a book deal in the works); she has spoken at Nancy Drew conventions; and she is cited in an article published in the Los Angeles Times available at http://articles.latimes.com/2002/may/31/news/lv-nancydrew31. I'll look into the others momentarily. Ricardiana (talk) 18:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The problem with the last three sources is that they need to satisfy WP:SPS, our guidelines on Self-published sources. To determine the reliability of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliability that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:44, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. A few questions and remarks occur to me:
The character's visual portrayal has also evolved over time, from a fearless, active young woman to a fearful or passive one. This wasn't clear to me in the lead, because I thought "visual portrayal" referred to the descriptions of the character in the books. As I read the article, I realised that it referred to illustrations of the character by artists. Unless it's just me, it could need clarifying.
- I see what you mean, but right now I can't think of another way to phrase it. I'll keep thinking about it - in the meantime, do you have any suggestions?
- I dunno ... Illustrations of the character have also evolved over time, from a fearless, active young woman to a fearful or passive one. ? qp10qp (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I dunno ... Illustrations of the character have also evolved over time, from a fearless, active young woman to a fearful or passive one. ? qp10qp (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I see what you mean, but right now I can't think of another way to phrase it. I'll keep thinking about it - in the meantime, do you have any suggestions?
- By the way, thank you for all the edits you made to make the article more concise. I was surprised at how much verbiage there was ... you really made the article much better. I especially like the "more mot-justeish" edit - are you a Wodehouse fan, by any chance? Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- To be honest, once you've read six or seven you've read the lot (I've read about fifteen), but yes. Actually, it strikes me that this character of the resourceful, natty young woman, independent of her parents, is familiar from Wodehouse, too. qp10qp (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, early Nancy has the uber-confidence of a Bobbie Wickham, without the heartlessness. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The very character I was thinking of! qp10qp (talk) 12:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, early Nancy has the uber-confidence of a Bobbie Wickham, without the heartlessness. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- To be honest, once you've read six or seven you've read the lot (I've read about fifteen), but yes. Actually, it strikes me that this character of the resourceful, natty young woman, independent of her parents, is familiar from Wodehouse, too. qp10qp (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- By the way, thank you for all the edits you made to make the article more concise. I was surprised at how much verbiage there was ... you really made the article much better. I especially like the "more mot-justeish" edit - are you a Wodehouse fan, by any chance? Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On the illustrations, the article goes into great detail, perhaps rather out of proportion to the mentions of Nancy's physical appearance and dress as it evolved over the years in the actual writing. Are the covers a precise response to the descriptions in the books?
- Hmm. Well, Tandy read all the books, so yes there. I don't know about Gillies; Nappi's wife read the books and told the plot to her husband. I believe I mentioned both those things in the article. Later on, though, I don't think there's much relation between the covers and the books in terms of portraying plot. In any case, no source talks about the later covers in those terms. If you're saying that the character's visual portrayal is not necessarily relevant, I would argue that it is and that the covers, tied to the texts or not, influence reader's perceptions. I have some websites that talk about this, but they're not technically reliable sources - just blogs and stuff. But readers are influenced by these covers. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, it's very relevant. I just felt the textual information about her appearance was limited in proportion. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the textual discussion of her appearance is very formulaic and brief. It generally goes something like this, usually on page 1, chapter 1: Nancy Drew, an attractive, titian-haired girl of eighteen, jammed her hands in the pockets of her scarlet jacket -- before noticing a clue. No other physical description for the rest of the book. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Smart policy. Very Maltese Falcon. qp10qp (talk) 12:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, the textual discussion of her appearance is very formulaic and brief. It generally goes something like this, usually on page 1, chapter 1: Nancy Drew, an attractive, titian-haired girl of eighteen, jammed her hands in the pockets of her scarlet jacket -- before noticing a clue. No other physical description for the rest of the book. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would have helped me in my flicking back and forth from text to images if the captions gave a date for the covers.
- Agreed; I'm working on this right now but it is proving surprisingly difficult to date the covers in some cases, and when I can find info it's, again, from "unreliable" sources like blogs. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, I have dates for all the covers except for The Secret of the Old clock. It's either 1965 or 1966, I can't determine which. I'll keep looking. Ricardiana (talk) 04:02, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Agreed; I'm working on this right now but it is proving surprisingly difficult to date the covers in some cases, and when I can find info it's, again, from "unreliable" sources like blogs. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Mystery of the Covers is solved! Could use circa, if the Clock won't yield its secret. qp10qp (talk) 12:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good idea, but I think I've confirmed the date for the last cover. I emailed one of my sources, Jennifer Fisher, who's often cited in newspaper articles as an authority on ND, and she confirms the date as 1966. Ricardiana (talk) 19:09, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Mystery of the Covers is solved! Could use circa, if the Clock won't yield its secret. qp10qp (talk) 12:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I find the method of quoting at times a little offputting: an example would be the two quotes starting from "in the words of one commentator ...". The way this was put together made it seem as if both quotations were from the same commentator, but checking the notes, they were from two different ones. I don't say that every commentator needs naming in the text, but there is a certain vagueness about who says what throughout. For me, a Wikipedia text has a voice of its own—for want of a better term, an encyclopedic voice. If one quotes without distancing the voice of the quote from the voice of the text, the quotation may seem to borrow the article's voice and vice-versa, leading to fogging or ventriloquising of viewpoint. The bit from "Many find Nancy to be simply a good role model for girls ..." is particularly confusing, I think. Three quotes follow so closely on each others heels that the article's voice is lost and one doesn't know who's saying what without checking the footnotes.
- I think this is a bad habit made possible by usually writing in MLA format where citation info is right there in the main text. You're right, it's not the best. I'll go over the article soon and work on this. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've gone over the article using control + F for such words as "many" and "some" and phrases like "in the words of." I could only find one instance of "in the words of" which I changed to give the name of the critic. Other instances such as you mention of references to unnamed critics are to a number of critics. See more below. Ricardiana (talk) 04:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this is a bad habit made possible by usually writing in MLA format where citation info is right there in the main text. You're right, it's not the best. I'll go over the article soon and work on this. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On a connected note, there are several places in the article where we have words to the effect that "many commentators say/ agree/ argue that", followed by a quotation from only one of them. I think that unless the source specifically reports that many commentators say something, we need to give multiple sources. I think three, though not strictly "many", is usually convincing enough. So the form might be something like "many commentators believe"/quotation from source A/(in footnote) see also source B and source C. On the whole, though, I don't usually find the "many" form satisfactory or often necessary.
- I thought I'd caught all those. Clearly not! Will work on this too. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As above, I searched the article for a number of phrases. I found several instances such as you're talking about and I corrected the footnotes to reflect the names of people making this or that claim. Ricardiana (talk) 04:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I thought I'd caught all those. Clearly not! Will work on this too. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not being familiar with book publishing, I was unclear at certain points of the distinction between volumes and titles. Do I deduce that each book has a volume number as well as a title? Are the volumes in groups within the series? I think in places that the word "book" would be a clear word to use, where nothing more complicated is involved. By the way, I wondered if the rewrites had new volume numbers or not. I also don't know what a "book packager" is (excuse my ignorance). It sounds like it involves more than just packaging the finished books.
- Well, re: book packagers, I tried to explain the process briefly in the "Creation of character" section. Essentially a book packager is a firm that produces books in assembly-line fashion - one person writes an outline, somebody else fleshes that out into a book, someone else edits it; sometimes the writer makes substantive changes and the book's edited again, by the same editor or a previous one; and then the finished "product" is handed to a publisher and produced. I think that a detailed exposition of this, though, is better left to the entry on book packaging.
- OK. It's probably just not known much about here in blighty. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In response to your other point, yes, the books have volume numbers as well as titles. The volumes are not really in groups (except in the new Girl Detective series, which has some [crappy] storylines that span three volumes). The re-writes did not have new numbers. The link to "List of Nancy Drew books" gives details for the various series. In any case, just to be clear, you are suggesting that I use "book" instead of "volume"? Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if it could be mentioned early on that the books have both titles and volume numbers, then all would be clear. I was getting muddled up between volume (part of a set) and volume (form of a book), especially as "titles" was also used. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, number 1, I think that this is info that could be found if people bother to click on the links in the article, for instance to "Nancy Drew Mystery Stories" or "Girl Detective"; that is what they are there for. Further, the word "volume" is primarily synonymous with a book, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, which lists the meaning you are thinking of, "A separately bound portion or division of a work", not as a second or third meaning, but as the fourth. My computer finds 23 instances of the word "volume" in the article. Do you really think that this is important enough to change 23 times in order to avoid confusion with the quaternary definition of a word? Ricardiana (talk) 04:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think a phrase early on would do it, but no matter. It's probably just me—a lot of the books I own are in sets of volumes, and I think of the books from those as volumes but never use the word volume for the others. Given that the Drew books are written in series and volumes, I was probably groping for extra significance where none exists. qp10qp (talk) 12:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, number 1, I think that this is info that could be found if people bother to click on the links in the article, for instance to "Nancy Drew Mystery Stories" or "Girl Detective"; that is what they are there for. Further, the word "volume" is primarily synonymous with a book, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, which lists the meaning you are thinking of, "A separately bound portion or division of a work", not as a second or third meaning, but as the fourth. My computer finds 23 instances of the word "volume" in the article. Do you really think that this is important enough to change 23 times in order to avoid confusion with the quaternary definition of a word? Ricardiana (talk) 04:45, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, if it could be mentioned early on that the books have both titles and volume numbers, then all would be clear. I was getting muddled up between volume (part of a set) and volume (form of a book), especially as "titles" was also used. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, re: book packagers, I tried to explain the process briefly in the "Creation of character" section. Essentially a book packager is a firm that produces books in assembly-line fashion - one person writes an outline, somebody else fleshes that out into a book, someone else edits it; sometimes the writer makes substantive changes and the book's edited again, by the same editor or a previous one; and then the finished "product" is handed to a publisher and produced. I think that a detailed exposition of this, though, is better left to the entry on book packaging.
Was the name Carolyn Keene used right from the start? The wording on that seems to me not quite clear.
- Yes; could you give an example of a sentence you think is unclear? I think that "Subsequent titles have been written by a number of different ghostwriters, all under the pseudonym Carolyn Keene" (emphasis added) makes it clear. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Stratemeyer accordingly began writing plot outlines and hired Mildred Wirt, later Mildred Wirt Benson, to ghostwrite the first volumes in the series.[25] Subsequent titles have been written by a number of different ghostwriters, all under the pseudonym Carolyn Keene. Here I wasn't clear whether these titles were subsequent to those written by Wirt. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Changed. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Stratemeyer accordingly began writing plot outlines and hired Mildred Wirt, later Mildred Wirt Benson, to ghostwrite the first volumes in the series.[25] Subsequent titles have been written by a number of different ghostwriters, all under the pseudonym Carolyn Keene. Here I wasn't clear whether these titles were subsequent to those written by Wirt. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The cooking quote about Beulah does not seem to be racist, unless by "the old-fashioned way" is meant, according to the cuisine of her race. I wonder if a stronger example can be found to support that point. If the examples are all this mild, then it might simply be enough to change "racist stereotypes" to "racial stereotypes".
- Well, this is a matter of opinion. First, I used this quotation b/c Mason uses it and I didn't want to be guilty of original research. Second, I think it's pretty racist - it's all part of the plantation legend that blacks are really so much happier in their proper place. Third, yes, there are plenty of other, more obvious examples I could use; I was hesitant, however, to shove in the most egregious example I could find when another one, cited by the critic in question, seemed to me to make the point. But off the top of my head, there's the evil mammy character in the original Hidden Staircase with her "sho'nuff" style dialogue, and the part in the original Nancy's Mysterious Letter (I think) where Nancy is startled by Ned and says something like, "Goodness, you startled me! I half expected to see a colored man leering at me." Fourth -- part of Mason's point, and the other critic, whose name I don't recall at the moment, is that the revisions just eliminate mention of race, rather than portraying a non-racist diverse world, and this example worked well for that too, I thought. Thoughts? Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you are quite right to use this example if it's the one you have a secondary source for. Being British, I'm probably just not attuned to the nuances here. I had to read the quote twice to grasp that the clue must be in the dishes she was cooking, some of which I've not heard of. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, here in the States this is cringe-inducing. It's not the food, and the having a black servant who is "old-fashioned". Here that really means one thing: nostalgia for a racist past. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It works the other way round, too. The expression "people of colour", as used in America, would be horrific on our side of the pond. Thank goodness Austin Powers has done so much to smooth away mutual incomprehension. qp10qp (talk) 12:41, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
On this question, the revised version is dated to 1975, whereas the publishers wanted the books revised for racial stereopes in 1959. Was the progress that slow?
- Oh, yeah. They had to keep writing new titles, while re-writing the old ones, and the Hardy Boys books had to be revised and re-written as well, while also coming out with new titles. The Stratemeyer Syndicate was also a pretty small operation after E. Stratemeyer's death, so not that many people were doing all this work. So, yes. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The point about Hannah Guen in this context, that Nancy consulted her on attire, seems to date from 1953, whereas the section (as named) starts with the call for changes in 1959.
- Yeah, I know. Some IP address is really gung-ho about adding details about Nancy's attire. I kept that stuff in b/c I didn't wish to seem like I think I own the article. I can take this out. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Removed. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yeah, I know. Some IP address is really gung-ho about adding details about Nancy's attire. I kept that stuff in b/c I didn't wish to seem like I think I own the article. I can take this out. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
full-figure. Does this mean "full-length"?
- Yes. I realize that "full-figure" has bosomy implications, but to me "full-length" implies Nancy sprawled on the ground, Jean Harlow-style. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Really? For me a head-to-toes portrait is a full-length one. For one moment I thought they'd made Nancy full-figured to get round the slim heroine stereotype (I think you're by now getting the feeling you're dealing with someone rather slow on the uptake, or who is drinking. Not the second, anyway). qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not at all. Upon further thought, I think the problem can be solved by implication: "a silhouette of Nancy bending slightly and looking at the ground". Changed to that - hope that's clearer. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Really? For me a head-to-toes portrait is a full-length one. For one moment I thought they'd made Nancy full-figured to get round the slim heroine stereotype (I think you're by now getting the feeling you're dealing with someone rather slow on the uptake, or who is drinking. Not the second, anyway). qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- '
'Nancy Drew books have been published in European, Scandinavian, Latin American, and Asian countries, with the exception of China. This rather implies that the books were published in all Asian countries except China. Do we know this?
- Yeah, that's awkward, and no, I don't. Will change. Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Eliminated. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Series order. I wondered if the series, volumes, etc. are in a specific order, or if the stories are random. Clearly, when she had a boyfriend there must have been a sequence. Does this follow all through? Do the books refer to each other (Wodehouse fans, for example, have used clues in his books to create a spurious chronology, despite the fact that the stories seem to all take place in some kind of never-never year sometime around 1920.) Is continuity a factor?
- Ah, you are a Wodehouse fan. --Continuity depends on the series; the Nancy Drew Mystery Stories have one thing going on, the Nancy Drew Files another, and so on. Do you have a suggestion on where to incorporate this info? also, i don't have a source for this -- is that the kind of info you don't need a source for? Ricardiana (talk) 21:54, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not a reference fascist myself. Anyway, I think the books count as sources for themselves, so long as they are described non-interpretively. Maybe could go briefly in that first bit of the "Books" section. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Added something to "Books" section. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice to have an idea of a typical Nancy Drew plot, beyond the fact that she solves mysteries. I am left unclear how much action there is, who she reports to, etc. (does she hand the criminals in to the police, her father, or whatever?), etc.
- Hmm -- I'll see what I can add about this. The problem of course is deciding what's "typical" - for that I need sources; Prager and Billman talk about this a little, but only for the Nancy Drew Mystery Stories. The Nancy Drew Files are a different thing ... for the moment, to satisfy your curiousity, The Hidden Staircase is an ND book that's often cited in one connection or another. The plot is this: Nancy is sitting at home alone when she receives a visit from crazy Nathan Gombet. He shoves his way in the house, demands some papers of her father's, and threatens her. Nancy forces him out of the house. Shortly afterwards she learns that two local sisters living in an old mansion are being troubled by mysterious events - shadows in their house, weird noises, disappearing objects, etc. They've heard of Nancy's prowess and ask her help. Nancy gains her father's permission to stay with them and investigate (in the original version, Mr. Drew gives Nancy a gun to take with her). Nancy soon concludes that there must be a secret entrance to the house, but she can't find it. Meanwhile, her father has disappeared. This and that happens, and Nancy realizes that Nathan Gombet is involved somehow in "haunting" the sisters' house. She breaks into his house for proof, and stumbles upon a secret passage. Though it's dark and slimy, and the stairs are full of holes, and her flashlight goes out, she presses forward and comes out in the attic of the sisters' house. She then gets the police who go to arrest Nathan Gombet, in whose house they find Mr. Drew, who had been kidnapped by Gombet. Nancy rescues her father, tells the authorities to arrest Gombet, and returns the sisters' missing stuff to them. (In the revised edition Nancy is much less bossy at the end.) A typical ND Files story involves Nancy doing Law & Order style detective work, looking stuff up on computers, digging through trash, diligently questioning suspects, etc. Ricardiana (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Oh, the first one's much the better type, definitely. Nathan Gombet, what a great name. qp10qp (talk) 00:37, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Impressed with your responses. May I say what a pleasure this article was to read. Many thanks to you for bringing Wikipedia such a thorough and fascinating piece of work. I've never a read a Nancy Drew book, but I was a Biggles fan as a boy and still admire the early ones, so I fully understand the fascination with this sort of character and series. qp10qp (talk) 21:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you - I'm happy that you enjoyed the article. Ricardiana (talk) 01:34, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:55, 5 May 2009 [8].
- Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 09:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nominating this article on the highest-scoring ace in Australian service of either war, a gallant fighter but something of a tragic figure as well. Recently passed its GA and MILHIST A-Class reviews, so time for a go at the bronze star methinks... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support This is a great article which easily meets the FA criteria. Nick-D (talk) 10:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Strongly support As one of the prime authors on the subject of World War I flying aces, I felt I should be rather scrupulous in checking this article. I checked all citations, and found them on target; the reference to the actual original text of military decorations was quite striking. This article is a well referenced one, showing the effects of much research effort, and is well written to boot. I can only hope that more articles of this quality can be written on the subject of pioneer fighter aces.Georgejdorner (talk) 14:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 01:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review: images check out fine. No explicit evidence that they were published between 1923 and 2002; the only possible book appears to be Cobby's High Adventure, which was published solely abroad and not registered with the US Copyright Office. Regardless, these images were in Australian public domain by 1 January 1996, and so these photos are considered to be US public domain as well. Jappalang (talk) 02:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I commented and supported this article in its A-Class review and have no reservations in supporting it in this FAC. This article is well composed, structured, illustrated and comprehensive. My only comment is that the Australian Flying Corps should probably be mentioned in the lead as the service Cobby flew with during the First World War. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 09:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tks Bryce - but I thought I mentioned the AFC in the second line... ;-)
- Whoops! That'll teach me for skimming over the initial introductory sentences of the lead! Sorry about that. Cheers, Abraham, B.S. (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tks Bryce - but I thought I mentioned the AFC in the second line... ;-)
- Comment:The article repeatedly uses single quotes (i.e.: 'word' instead of "word"). According to WP:MOS, the use of single quotes should be reserved for quotations within quotations.--Carabinieri (talk) 17:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tks mate - the single quotes were used to indicate expressions or figures of speech as opposed to direct quotes; on the other hand, the terms are also quotes from the sources so I've changed them to avoid controversy... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links not checked with the link checker tool, as it was misbehaving. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:00, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support.
Comments. I think this is generally a nice looking article, but there are a few places where I think the prose needs sorting out before I'd feel comfortable supporting:
*From World War I: "... were thus considered a dangerous if valuable target." That doesn't really make sense. Only dangerous if valuable, not otherwise? Would something like "valuable but dangerous" be nearer the mark?
*Also from World War I: "No. 4 Squadron was credited with being the most successful fighter squadron in France," Awkward noun +ing. Suggest something like "was recognised as the most successful ...".
*From Between the wars: "He married Hilda Maude Urban in Caulfield, Victoria, on 24 April 1920; the couple would have a son and a daughter." Why the tense switch to "would have"? Would have if what?
*Also from Between the wars: "Cobby handed over to Squadron Leader Bill Bostock on 22 November 1931. He was promoted Wing Commander on 1 May 1933 and subsequently served as RAAF Director of Intelligence." Who was promoted? Cobby or Bostock?
*Also from Between the wars: "The resulting surveys of Queensland and the Northern Territory would provide valuable input for the establishment of military airfields and other installations following the outbreak of World War II. Once again, why "would provide" instead of the more straightforward "provided"?
*From World War ii: "... a role that traded on his name before the public." Before the public what? Presumably this means something like "traded on his public image"?
*Also from "... he commanded 20,000 personnel in the RAAF's major mobile strike force in the South West Pacific, comprising fighter, close support, and airfield construction units." Should be consisting of; parts comprise the whole, the whole consists of its parts.
*From Post-war career and legacy: "One of the aluminium cutouts of Charlie Chaplin that Cobby attached to his Sopwith Camel in World War I later went on show at RAAF Museum, Point Cook,[9] while the tail skid of one of his victims was displayed at the Australian War Memorial, Canberra." "While" implies simultaneity; were these two things displayed simultaneously?
- All actioned, tks for reviewing. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:30, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:55, 5 May 2009 [9].
- Nominator(s): – iridescent 16:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the putative Buildings of the Moselle valley topic, those with long memories may remember my saying that an earlier version of this article was unexpandable, but, well, it's been expanded. The article may appear vague on the early history not through lack of research, but because little is known about the origins of the two buildings (the house and the detached tower) that make up Bruce Castle and the early records are lost – even the usually authoritative Pevsner is unsure of the century of construction, let alone the specifics – but I think the article does as good a job as possible of covering what little we do know of the early period, and in covering the building's history since then. It's been through an extremely thorough GA review, as well as a peer review last month which fizzled out somewhat. Mostly by me based on an earlier stub article by JackyR, with significant nods due to Giano on the architectural history and Malleus for general cleanuppification. – iridescent 16:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
NB. Per this conversation, although www.revolutionaryplayers.org.uk looks like a poorly-constructed fansite, it's actually an impeccable Reliable Source, being a joint venture of a number of major research institutions (The National Gallery, Birmingham Museum and Art Gallery, Erasmus Darwin House etc) to centralize their biographical material on the 17th and 18th centuries – the peculiar name refers to the industrial revolution. – iridescent 16:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That page looks like a dead link to me :-) Majorly talk 16:33, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You're right, might have helped if I'd put the right URL in – now fixed. – iridescent 16:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
images all licenced correctly, File:Rowland_Hill_-_Project_Gutenberg_etext_13103.jpg should look into the text Fasach Nua (talk) 17:26, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tech. Review
- 0 disambiguation links were found with the dab finder tool.
- 0 dead external links were found with the links checker tool.
- 0 ref formatting errors were found with WP:REFTOOLS.--Truco 02:24, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments On the whole, very good, but a few problems need fixing and matters need reconciling.
Problems
1. The first sentence is much too long. It attempts to state 7 facts about the house. You can afford to use a short paragraph to do this.
- The Grade 1 listing is almost certainly linked not to the house’s present architectural state, which is not particularly impressive, but to its archaeological significance as the earliest-surviving brick house. These facts ought to be linked.
- I agree regarding the first sentence and have split it. Regarding the reasons for listing, as I've already said on the talkpage, Wikipedia is not the place for your pet theories with no evidence. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that being brick-built had any impact on the decision to list the building; virtually every surviving Tudor building in London is Grade 1 listed, and the register entry gives no indication that the construction material was a factor in the decision. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you mean that the apparent fact that the house is possibly the oldest brick house is not mentioned in the statement of significance? That sounds like an oversight!
- I gave a link to the listing in my reply above (IoE looks like a fansite, but it's actually English Heritage's central register of listed buildings). No, it is not mentioned, and I very much doubt it's relevant; any surviving building from this period in London would be Grade 1 listed regardless of building material (as per its near-neighbour, Forty Hall, also brick-built – the third surviving manor house in N London, Broomfield House, is only grade II* listed as only a shell remains). – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you mean that the apparent fact that the house is possibly the oldest brick house is not mentioned in the statement of significance? That sounds like an oversight!
- I agree regarding the first sentence and have split it. Regarding the reasons for listing, as I've already said on the talkpage, Wikipedia is not the place for your pet theories with no evidence. There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that being brick-built had any impact on the decision to list the building; virtually every surviving Tudor building in London is Grade 1 listed, and the register entry gives no indication that the construction material was a factor in the decision. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
2. Repeatedly remodelled in the 17th and 18th centuries. This is not well expressed.
- I would suggest that the remodelling of the 17th century was not repeated. The major and repeated remodelling and extending was 18th. If Pevsner is correct about the courtyard, and he may well be, then a substantial part of the house must have been demolished and rebuilt to a different plan.
- I've taken out the "repeated", which I agree was confusing, but there's no suggestion whatsoever that the house was extended in the 18th century; it was remodelled in the late 17th century, and extended in both the 18th and 19th century, but "extension" is a misleading word to use in the context of the renovations; while some of the renovations added additional rooms, others such as the demolition of the west wing and the removal of the attics reduced the overall size of the house. "Remodelled" is a word that encompasses both types of alteration. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You've written here something here that is perhaps not exactly what you intended. You say "there's no suggestion whatsoever that the house was extnded in the 18th century" and then say exactly the opposite- "extended both in the 18th and 19th centuries". Did you mean to write "there's no suggestion whatsoever that the house was extnded in the 18th century"?
- Oops, my mistake – it should have read primarily extended in the 18th century. Are you happy with the current wording? – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm happpy to go with the removal of the word repeated.
- My comment about "demolition" is not something that I intended for inclusion. I merely have an academic interest in the suggestion that it was a courtyard house.
- You've written here something here that is perhaps not exactly what you intended. You say "there's no suggestion whatsoever that the house was extnded in the 18th century" and then say exactly the opposite- "extended both in the 18th and 19th centuries". Did you mean to write "there's no suggestion whatsoever that the house was extnded in the 18th century"?
- I've taken out the "repeated", which I agree was confusing, but there's no suggestion whatsoever that the house was extended in the 18th century; it was remodelled in the late 17th century, and extended in both the 18th and 19th century, but "extension" is a misleading word to use in the context of the renovations; while some of the renovations added additional rooms, others such as the demolition of the west wing and the removal of the attics reduced the overall size of the house. "Remodelled" is a word that encompasses both types of alteration. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
3. There was no castle in the area at the time however, and the family is unlikely to have lived locally.
- This sentence implies that there was a castle at a later date, and that this building actually is as castle. That implication is one of a couple that imply that the building was or is a castle. Neither is true.
- Whether or not there was a castle is not directly linked to whether the Bruce family lived locally.
- I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous objection. The sentence does not imply anything of the sort. It's clear from the context that it's to make clear that while the name "Bruce Castle" was later used to describe the house, the Bruce family did not live in a castle on this site and are unlikely to have lived in the area at all. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There was no castle at that time however implies that there was a castle at some other time, presumably the "Bruce Castle" which is the subject of the article. In fact (as far as we know) there never was a castle.
- Are you happy with "However, there was no castle in the area, and the family is unlikely to have lived locally"? That should be clearer. – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There was no castle at that time however implies that there was a castle at some other time, presumably the "Bruce Castle" which is the subject of the article. In fact (as far as we know) there never was a castle.
- I'm sorry, this is a ridiculous objection. The sentence does not imply anything of the sort. It's clear from the context that it's to make clear that while the name "Bruce Castle" was later used to describe the house, the Bruce family did not live in a castle on this site and are unlikely to have lived in the area at all. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
4. To say that Lysons dates the use of the name to the 13th century is inaccurate. Lysons dates the use of the name Brus to the 13th century, and “supposes” that this gave rise to the name “Brus Castle”.
- The Lysons quote in question is "The portion allotted to Robert de Brus (who was competitor for the crown of Scotland with Baliol) was called the Manor of Bruses, by which name it is still distinguished. Richard de Brus, a younger son of Robert, who held this manor for life by grant from his father, died seised of it, anno 1287 (fn. 23) . His father survived him, and died in 1295 (fn. 24) . Robert Earl of Annandale, and in right of his wife Earl of Carrick (eldest son of Robert de Brus above-mentioned), after his return from the holy war retired to England (fn. 25) , and it is probable made Tottenham his residence, whence the mansion-house belonging to this manor obtained, I suppose, the name of Brus, or Bruce Castle." To me, it's clear that he's attributing the use of the name "Brus or Bruce Castle" to this period. Lysons was published over 200 years ago, and to the best of my knowledge no reliable source since makes this claim; all concur that the first usage of the "Bruce Castle" name dates from the 2nd Baron Coleraine (1635-1708). I've mentioned Lysons, to show that the debate did exist, but am not treating him as a reliable source. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is ridiculous. Lysons says "I suppose". Your dealing with this should state that Lysons "supposes" this, rather than although Lysons dates the usage of the name to the late 13th century. The current reading indicates that Lysons is definite which gives a sense of reliability. The word "supposes" must be inserted, otherwise the statement is misleading.
- How about "although Lysons speculates that the usage of the name dates to the late 13th century"? – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is ridiculous. Lysons says "I suppose". Your dealing with this should state that Lysons "supposes" this, rather than although Lysons dates the usage of the name to the late 13th century. The current reading indicates that Lysons is definite which gives a sense of reliability. The word "supposes" must be inserted, otherwise the statement is misleading.
- The Lysons quote in question is "The portion allotted to Robert de Brus (who was competitor for the crown of Scotland with Baliol) was called the Manor of Bruses, by which name it is still distinguished. Richard de Brus, a younger son of Robert, who held this manor for life by grant from his father, died seised of it, anno 1287 (fn. 23) . His father survived him, and died in 1295 (fn. 24) . Robert Earl of Annandale, and in right of his wife Earl of Carrick (eldest son of Robert de Brus above-mentioned), after his return from the holy war retired to England (fn. 25) , and it is probable made Tottenham his residence, whence the mansion-house belonging to this manor obtained, I suppose, the name of Brus, or Bruce Castle." To me, it's clear that he's attributing the use of the name "Brus or Bruce Castle" to this period. Lysons was published over 200 years ago, and to the best of my knowledge no reliable source since makes this claim; all concur that the first usage of the "Bruce Castle" name dates from the 2nd Baron Coleraine (1635-1708). I've mentioned Lysons, to show that the debate did exist, but am not treating him as a reliable source. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
5. The linking of the simple neo-Gothic window frame inserted in a Gothic window in the tower with “Strawberry Hill Gothic” and taking it to imply that the interior was changed in the 18th, rather than the 19th century (as would be expected) is problematic, unless the interior treatment is much more suggestive of Strawberry Hill.
- Agreed; that was a piece of speculation by Giano, and while (being from Giano) it's likely correct, I've removed it as uncited; English Heritage believe that the window dates from the 19th century. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
6. …….little evidence of its early antecedents, appearing more an 17th-century manor house than a castle.
- This is a very misleading sentence. It continues to imply that the house once was or at the very least looked like a castle. The first is not true and the second is probably not true.
- The second part of the sentence states that it appears like a 17th century manor house.
- No, it no longer does appear like a 17th century manor house, despite the fact that it has retained its distinctive 17th century central feature. Other than this, the building has been remodelled to look 18th century. Even the bays have been given an 18th century appearance by the sash windows.
- Agreed; this was misleading, as even if one does believe that the sourth elevation has a 17th century appearance, that certainly isn't the case of the Georgian east, Queen Anne north, or Victorian/Art Deco melange to the west. Removed. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
7. The house was substantially remodelled in 1684, following Henry Hare's marriage to the dowager Duchess of Somerset, and much of the existing south facade dates from this time. ref. Cherry and Pevsner.
- This statement, and the dating of the engraving to “following Hare’s alterations’’ are in serious conflict with each other.
- The engraved picture shows the south façade (put me right if I am wrong.) … and is based on a painting (which might or might not be considerably earlier?)
- Most of the details of the house in the picture are not consistent with a date of post 1684, but are entirely consistent with a late Tudor date. The form of gables is Tudor, the transoms of the windows are Tudor. The different heights of the windows in the right turret suggesting that it was a stair turret is Tudor. None of these things are consistent with a building period of post 1684. Only the central feature and the parapets/ finials of the turrets are apparently of a later date. And these features occur in buildings of the first half of the 17th century, rather than the second. Hence the fact that further down the page you cite the similarity to buildings of 1611 and 1616, not buildings of 1684.
- The implications are either that the painting on which the engraving was based represents the building prior to all Hare’s alterations, (which means that the caption is incorrect) or else the implications of Cherry and Pevsner have been misinterpretted in the article, or (Heaven help us if it could be so) Uncle Nick got it wrong. Please check exactly what the Cherry Pevsner reference says.
- Hare's alterations were made in 1684; the engraving is based on a painting of 1686. These are two of the very few dates in the house's vague early history which aren't up for debate; both the records of the reconstruction, and the date on the painting, can be verified from primary sources. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The big question is, at this stage, do we have any idea of what parts of the reconstruction were actually done by Hare, given the fairly extensive nature of the changes that took place in the 18th century.
- If Hare, commencing in 1684, inserted those windows shown in both engravings, then they were very dated in style. If Hare built the bays/turrets, then they were also very dated. If Hare was responsible the gables, then those were also very dated. Even the style of the central feature had been around for seventy years. (on evidence which you or Giano has included in the article.) Is there any evidence of exactly which changes Hare made to the house? Did Hare's changes to the south front consist of laying out a garden to please his wife? What did he actually do?
- The recorded changes made by Hare in the 1684 remodelling (I really don't want to go into detail in the article itself if it can be avoided, as they're irrelevant for most readers) – Pevsner's wording, but Pegram's summary of the changes is similar: "The central porch was given lively stone quoins, two orders of pilasters, and a balustraded top, and surounted by a tower and little cupola, and the polygonal end bays were heightened". As these are the two most reliable sources for the architecture – and there's no source saying anything to the contrary – I will stand by the current deliberately vague wording of "and much of the existing south facade dates from this time" as being consistent with the (sketchy) detail available from the sources. – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hare's alterations were made in 1684; the engraving is based on a painting of 1686. These are two of the very few dates in the house's vague early history which aren't up for debate; both the records of the reconstruction, and the date on the painting, can be verified from primary sources. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
8. The engraving, regardless of the date of the painting on which it is based, is the most important indication of a major stage of the building’s development. It is a very detailed pic and needs to be much larger than thumbnail.
- So click on it. While there are circumstances where it's legitimate to violate WP:MOSIMAGE for the sake of clarity, this is certainly not one of them. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Read it more closely. The max recommended size is 300 for very detailed pics. No reader wants to be hopping backwards and forwards to see images. And most casual readers are unaware that they can chose a size in which to view images. We write for the public. Or don't we?
- Sorry, but I really don't believe that the detail of that particular image is essential enough to warrant invoking the "Images containing a lot of detail, if the detail is important to the article" exemption from the MOS. It's no more significant – in some ways less so – then the photographs of the four current faces of the house. – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Read it more closely. The max recommended size is 300 for very detailed pics. No reader wants to be hopping backwards and forwards to see images. And most casual readers are unaware that they can chose a size in which to view images. We write for the public. Or don't we?
- So click on it. While there are circumstances where it's legitimate to violate WP:MOSIMAGE for the sake of clarity, this is certainly not one of them. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
9. ...gabled attics on the south front were removed, giving the south facade the appearance it has today.
- This is not an accurate description of the particular architectural event. The attics were not removed. They are very much in evidence. The attic storey was rebuilt to the height of the gables, and given a straight parapet. Count the number of stories.
- Changed "removed" to "replaced by a top floor and parapet", which describes this particular rebuilding more accurately. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good.
- Changed "removed" to "replaced by a top floor and parapet", which describes this particular rebuilding more accurately. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
10. In the lower section of the article the pictures are cluttered and badly arranged. There is Rowland Hill facing out of the pic on the left, and the new extension facing out of the pic on the right.
- The cramming of too many pics causes squeezing of the text. This problem doesn’t matter much on wide screens (where it is most likely to occur). However some editors are very strongly opposed to it. If the text is being “squeezed” on a very narrow screen, (which makes the text extend further and therefore the problem less likely to occur, but more problematic if it does) which is happening in this case, then it definitely needs fixing. I suggest the removal of the lest significant picture.
- Agree regarding Hill facing out, and I've swapped two images over to resolve that one. I completely disagree with you regarding clutter; there's no image in this section (with the arguable exception of Hill's portrait and the detail of the entranceway) which isn't necessary, and this page displays fine on everything from a 25" widescreen to an iPod. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- See wiki style, which you have quoted elsewhere, on the subject of squeezing text between images.
- The current placement of images isn't violating the "Avoid sandwiching text between two images that face each other" line of the MOS, which I assume you're citing – if any parts of this article are violating MOS, you can rest assured Sandy will shout at us. It's been tested on various browsers at various window widths, and I'm unable to find any combination in which the current image placement causes either image-stacking or "toothpaste tube" squeezing of the text, which is what that particular clause of the MOS is intended to avoid. – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- See wiki style, which you have quoted elsewhere, on the subject of squeezing text between images.
- Agree regarding Hill facing out, and I've swapped two images over to resolve that one. I completely disagree with you regarding clutter; there's no image in this section (with the arguable exception of Hill's portrait and the detail of the entranceway) which isn't necessary, and this page displays fine on everything from a 25" widescreen to an iPod. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two issues
- Fortification. The “fortification” of a manor house was not necessarily strategic. It could be purely cosmetic. The façade of Leeds Castle [10] is a splendid example of a structure that is purely domestic but has been given corner turrets and battlements, in this case very much in keeping with its real status as a castle and the home of royalty.
- In the case of Bruce Castle, the two octagonal turrets, on the evidence of the engraving, were not “bays” in the normal sense of an open space jutting from a room. Their windows are indicative of this, particularly those of that on the right.
- These turret gave a castle-ish air to the building, and justified the affectation of it being called a castle, as did the tower, to the left. It is plain that the turrets were not strategic. However, like the addition of battlements to a roofline, or a moat, six feet wide and two feet deep, they constitute “fortification”.
- Here’s a good example: the present Chilham Castle justifies its name of “castle” with “fortification” of battlements and corner towers. They are neither serves any practical defensive purpose, but both are “fortification”. [11]
- We have already had this conversation on the article talk page. There is no evidence whatsoever for any fortification – cosmetic or otherwise. The name "Bruce Castle" was a late change postdating the alleged "fortifications" by at least a century; the change in name was almost certainly due to the fashion for all things Scottish following the Union of 1603. If you can find any reliable source for fortifications other than your own personal theory, feel free; otherwise, the name has no more significance than nearby Jack Straw's Castle.
- You are (I feel) deliberately misinterpreting my statements about "fortification". By the 16th century, and certainly by the 17th, few houses were being strategically fortified. However, houses were being "castellated" (a better word) by adding Castle-ish features. Two octagonal turrets and a ditch served to make the house somewhat "castle-ish". Crenellations (not here) were often added to rooflines.
- I doubt very much whether a manor house without some feature that was regarded as fashionably castle-ish in style would have renamed Brus Castle. Turrets and/or crenellations were a common feature of such buildings. In this case, there were two turrets, nad an ancient tower to support the renaming, whether or not one terms the ditch that obviously existed to the left of the building, a "moat".
- The moat. What constitutes a moat? And what is the archaeological evidence for somethin akin to a moat having existed at Bruce Castle?
- Once again, like “fortification” the word does necessarily imply a truly defensive encircling moat.
- The undeniable fact, proved by the archaeologist, is that the ground level on the left side (facing) of the house in the vicinity of the old tower was very much lower than it is at the time of the tower’s construction. There are cross-shaped windows which are now below ground level.
- The engraving supports this. The linear perspective of the engraving is fairly accurate. It indicates clearly that the land fell away very steeply directly beside the main part of the house, and the left wall of the garden in front of the house. The ground level across the façade is clearly indicated, but suddenly disappears in front of the little extension to the left. Likewise, the tower is standing in a deep space. If the ground was level, or sloped gently, then the line of the ground level would appear on the tower, at the angle at which the view has been taken.
- So the tower stood on much lower ground, or in a wide ditch, that extended back for some distance, along the side of the house.
- At the rear of the house, archaeologists discovered a brick culvert of the 17th or 18th century (memory lapse). A culvert covers a ditch, drain or water course. It would be interesting to know the size of this culvert.
- See above. The evidence for a moat is the single line "The spread of London's population is responsible for the recent levelling of the moat" in a 1911 magazine, and a passing mention to "the repair of a drawbridge" in 1742; the evidence against a moat is the fact that it doesn't appear on two centuries of Ordnance Survey maps, is not mentioned in any source, does not appear in any images from any period, has left no archaeological traces, and that there would be no reason for a house built in this area in this period to have a moat. The windows below ground level on the round tower are an effect of stratification with no necessary implications that it was built at a lower level – assuming it was built as a dovecote there would be no reason to build a dovecote in the moat, in any case. As per what you've been repeatedly advised, if you can find reliable sources for the building being moated feel free to include them, but Wikipedia is not the place for your original research. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So we ignore the report that a "moat" was levelled. (Call it a wide ditch if you like). We ignore a report that gives "passing mention" to the repair of a drawbridge? We ignore the fact that "stratification" has occurred to a singular degree around the tower, but not to the house right beside it? We ignore the fact that two engravings (and presumably the painting on which they are based) show that the base of the tower was at a very much lower level than the house and garden.
- The mention of a drawbridge is just that – a mention of a drawbridge – with no mention of a moat. I am starting to get fed up with repeating this; you can say (as the article does), that the existence of a drawbridge implies the existence of a moat at this time. We are not going to include original research and speculations to come to a firm conclusion on whether the building was or was not moated, in the absence of sources. – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoever said that there was a "reason" for the house to have a moat? You keep misinterpreting my statements as if I was referring to something as wide as the English Channel and as deep as the Mindanao Trench. I have made it fairly clear that I am not.
- Concerning the ordinance surveys- How detailed are they? While they undoubtedly show watercourses, do they show ditches?
- Yes, OS maps should show ditches (they're most obvious with railway cuttings). Even were it to slip past on early maps, it should certainly show on later maps; there's no sign of any earthworks on, for example, the 1895 map (Enfield S, OS ref M7.07). I'm willing to be give the matter of a moat (whether defensive or ornamental) more weight if someone can find a map or picture showing a moat – or a reliable source mentioning the moat – but a single passing mention in an article on another subject, which is all we currently have, is not sufficient grounds to warrant mentioning anything more than the possibility, as the article currently does. – iridescent 19:29, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- So we ignore the report that a "moat" was levelled. (Call it a wide ditch if you like). We ignore a report that gives "passing mention" to the repair of a drawbridge? We ignore the fact that "stratification" has occurred to a singular degree around the tower, but not to the house right beside it? We ignore the fact that two engravings (and presumably the painting on which they are based) show that the base of the tower was at a very much lower level than the house and garden.
- OR warning! This is a suggestion which the interested parties might like to consider. The presence of "windows" towards the base of the tower and lack of such windows higher up suggest that the building's purpose was something that required an updraft.
- So find a reliable source. Again, we don't do speculation. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This is added, as I have made obvious, for your interest.
- So find a reliable source. Again, we don't do speculation. – iridescent 17:17, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Style: Some comparative pics.
- Melford Hall, 1554-78 has twin brick turrets [12]
- Eastbury Manor House, Elizabethan, has the gables and windows [13]
- Cadhay, before 1550, with Elizabethan and Jacobean additions. Note the polygonal central feature. [14]
Amandajm (talk) 04:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for the changes that you have made. They are a real improvement. You have addressed the real issues, as against those which would require a major funded dig or detailed investigation of the building's fabric to sort out. If the statement by Lysons is turned into a "supposition" by Lysons, then I think it's probably fine. I'll take another look.
- Further comments
- There was no castle in the area at the time however, and the family is unlikely to have lived locally.
- The words "at that time" imply that there was a castle at a later date. There was not. They need to go. Bruce Castle was not and is not a castle. While there may be a British custom of naming a building "castle", the use of the word "castle" on its own carries the implication of a real castle. It needs to be changed.
- The "at the time" has already gone – see above. – iridescent 01:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comments
- Although there is or surviving historical record of its construction, and it does not appear in any illustrations, court rolls of 1742 refer to the repair of a drawbridge, implying that the building then had a moat.[5] A 1911 archaeological journal made passing reference to "the recent levelling of the moat".[Jean Pegram 1987]
- I want to know if this entire sentence comes from Jean Pegram, 1987. The document comes from the Journal of a local historical society, the website of which is very brief. The document doesn't appear to be on line.
- Does all the information in this sentence come from Pegram?
- The sentence from Pegram is "In the Tottenham Court Rolls there is a reference to the repair of a drawbridge at the Lordship House in 1742 implying that a moat was in existence at this time", which is what I've tried to convey. – iridescent 01:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I presume that Pegram is the source for both dated facts, of 1742 and 1911. Does the statement that there is no archaeological evidence and the statement that it does not appear in any illustrations also come from Pegram?
- I don't know why you're presuming that – the 1911 source (["Ancient Earthworks" in A History of the County of Middlesex) is clearly cited. I'll concede the " I agree on the "no archaeological evidence or surviving historical record of its construction, and it does not appear in any illustrations" shouldn't be there, and have removed it. – iridescent 01:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My error entirely. The other refence is there. But this was not the matter that I was really wanting to know. Amandajm (talk) 02:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Pegram was writing in 1987. If Pegram wrote that there was "no archaeological evidence", then she wrote it twenty years before a dig discovered windows in the tower below current ground level, (and well below the entrance to the house itself which hasn't changed by more than a few inches since the engraving.) She would also have been unaware of the underground brick culvert at the rear of the house. (I want to point out here that although members of the public were employed in the dig, there is no reason to presume that it was carried out in anything other than a professional manner. The relevant material here is of large size and was not going to go unnoticed, regardless of who manned the trowel. Professional digs have often employed local unskilled labour.)
- See above – that "no archaeological evidence" has gone. – iridescent 01:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Pegram was writing in 1987. If Pegram wrote that there was "no archaeological evidence", then she wrote it twenty years before a dig discovered windows in the tower below current ground level, (and well below the entrance to the house itself which hasn't changed by more than a few inches since the engraving.) She would also have been unaware of the underground brick culvert at the rear of the house. (I want to point out here that although members of the public were employed in the dig, there is no reason to presume that it was carried out in anything other than a professional manner. The relevant material here is of large size and was not going to go unnoticed, regardless of who manned the trowel. Professional digs have often employed local unskilled labour.)
- The statement it does not appear in any illustration is incorrect, regardless of whether Pegram made the statement, or it is original research on the part of the writers of the article. I have made it clear that both the engraved versions of the painting of the late 17th century indicate, by their perspective, that the base of the tower was at a much lower level than the ground level of the forecourt. This may not be apparent to you, but to someone who has educated others in the skill of perspective drawing, it is a fact beyond dispute.
- I want to point out to you that the western boundary wall, dating from the 17th century (or earlier) runs parallel to the school building, (and parallel to the demolished west wing). The wall, for no currently apparent reason, then makes a right hand turn and meets the house, parallel and adjacent to the south front. The engravings both show that previously there was a continuation of that masonry wall, having made another right hand turn, on the left side of the forecourt, separating the forecourt from whatever lay to the left of it. The right hand side of the forcourt only has a picket fence. Why the large dog's leg kink in the fence? Why did the boundary fence not encompass the feature of the round tower? The reason is made clear in the two engravings. The round tower was standing in a deep ditch (otherwise referred to as "moat"). When that forecourt was built, the level area was walled and fenced as a garden. The ditch (moat) was not included.
- Let me reiterate, the statement that I am making that the tower was at a lower level is not "OR". It has been plainly illustrated twice. Any editor, looking at the engraving, could state with certainty that (at that date) "the house had gables" or "the house had a forecourt", (both of which are plain to anyone). An editor whose observation is a little more scientific will state with equal certainty that "the house had a round tower at a lower level". (This is the same editor that drew to your attention the fact that an attic storey was still present, although transformed, and suggested that you should count the levels.)
- Leading out of the forecourt, apparent in both engravings, is an arch or doorway through the wall, near the house. The tower has a projecting masonry structure pointing in a roughly north easterly direction, which would align (approximately) with that door, were the door still present.
- I am not going to keep repeating myself on this. As already discussed on the article talkpage, you are basing this on this illustration, in which you can see a ditch but nobody else appears able to. If you can find a published source for there being a moat or ditch by all means add it, but the only written evidence is the 1742 mention of a drawbridge and a passing mention in a 1911 article on another subject, and that is not sufficient evidence for anything stronger than the "implying that at this time the building had a moat" currently used in the article. There are any number of reasons a wall could make a sharp bend – to accommodate a stable yard, to avoid crossing onto the lands of the nearby church, to avoid a boggy patch of the Moselle floodplain – in the absence of stronger evidence, we are not going to rewrite the article to state that a moat definitively existed. – iridescent 01:18, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What I am seeing is not, precisely, the presence of a ditch. What I am seeing, in both engravings, is that if the ground level were at the same height around the tower and in front of the now-demolished wing, then it would be clearly visible and would have been drawn by the engraver. The ground level is not visible. In fact, it is not visible for some feet. This indicates that the ground around the tower and in front of the western wing, (immediately adjacent to the south front) was several feet lower than the courtyard. The two ground levels are separated by a wall (in the engraving).
- The land that is being avoided is not church land, because it has the Bruce tower standing on it. The land avoided by the wall was very probably "a boggy patch" as you have suggested, because it was at a lower level.
- I took a look at the 1896(?) survey map, and it had a big capital T for "Tower" just where one might hope to see indication of a steep change in level. I think that there is a more detailed map than the one I viewed online, but I couldn't access it. Anyway, the map is 300 years later than the engraving and the level of soil would have changed in that time, perhaps by several feet. If this occured it would leave not very much levelling to do, at the time that the "levelling" was recorded in 1911. However, at that date, the dip might still have been substantial enough to indicate that what one might term a "moat" had once been there. This latter is speculation on one hand, but on the other, it is to be expected that the ground level would change, particulalrly once the wall between the two levels was gone. (maybe it fell down into the ditch)
- The two statements there is no archaeological evidence and it does not appear in any illustrations should both be removed. A statement such as "the ground around the house is (now) level" or even "although it is not (now) apparent" could be inserted instead.
- Amandajm (talk) 00:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good Pleased to see they are gone.
- Are you happy with the current status of the article regarding the "moat/ditch" issue, which seems to be the only item left unresolved? As per the current wording, I'm perfectly willing to concede that there may have been a moat, but that there's insufficient evidence to state it as fact – which is the current wording used.
- Incidentally, replying to an earlier point of yours I forgot to reply to earlier – although the "Hornsey Historical Society" sounds like a club, it's in fact one of the main publishers and shops on historic material on the London N area (which is why they're publishing an item on Bruce Castle, which is nowhere near Hornsey). The current edition of Pegram is now actually published and distributed by Bruce Castle Museum themselves, so I think it's reasonable to assume that it's reliable. – iridescent 16:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates.What makes http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/ccmiddle.htm a reliable source?
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:46, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed the citations (I could have sworn I already did that, but hey ho). Regarding the Middlesex Regiment, I agree it's not the best of sources but can't see a way round it. It's certainly possible to cite the fact that the collection has now been moved to the National Army Museum, and there are numerous sources for it formerly being at Bruce Castle – but no obvious reliable source I can find for the date of the transfer. (Pegram was published before the transfer took place, and the council minutes don't appear to be online.) Do you (or anyone) have any suggestions on how to treat this? (I can certainly reword it to "the collection was later moved" or something similar, leaving out the date"). – iridescent 16:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd go with the "collection was later moved" and stick with reliable sources for the information. You can always add the date if you find the council minutes or something else reliable later. I don't see the exact date of the move as being something needed for this article, it might be required for comprehensiveness on an article about the collection, but for this article, the fact that it moved is enough. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:18, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ✓ Done – before you ask, www.armymuseums.org.uk is a reliable source ("This website is approved by the Ministry of Defence as the definitive guide to the regimental and corps museums of the British Army spread throughout the United Kingdom.") – iridescent 17:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd go with the "collection was later moved" and stick with reliable sources for the information. You can always add the date if you find the council minutes or something else reliable later. I don't see the exact date of the move as being something needed for this article, it might be required for comprehensiveness on an article about the collection, but for this article, the fact that it moved is enough. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:18, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed the citations (I could have sworn I already did that, but hey ho). Regarding the Middlesex Regiment, I agree it's not the best of sources but can't see a way round it. It's certainly possible to cite the fact that the collection has now been moved to the National Army Museum, and there are numerous sources for it formerly being at Bruce Castle – but no obvious reliable source I can find for the date of the transfer. (Pegram was published before the transfer took place, and the council minutes don't appear to be online.) Do you (or anyone) have any suggestions on how to treat this? (I can certainly reword it to "the collection was later moved" or something similar, leaving out the date"). – iridescent 16:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As this article is about the house, I think there should be sections on its architecture and its history. Instead, the story of the house is told through its owners and bits of architectural history are scattered throughout the biographies of the owners. I would reorganize the article to focus on the history of the house, rather than the owners. I would also recommend a copyedit from an uninvolved editor. I would be happy to continue copyediting myself, after this larger organizational issue has been addressed. Awadewit (talk) 16:15, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As originally written, the article was formatted the way you're suggesting (with an "architectural history", followed by a separate "history of the house's residents"). Following this discussion – in which I initially took the same position you suggest, but changed my mind – it was restructured into the "straight chronological narrative" form it currently has. I think it makes more sense doing it this way. It avoids the need for duplication of explanations on who the people involved were, or repeated "see below"s. It puts the architectural changes into some kind of context, making it easier to follow which person was responsible for which set of changes. It also avoids the "switchback ride" element of a 15th-century to 19th-century chronology for the architecture being followed by a lurch back to the 16th century for the "residents" section.
- There's also a broader issue, in that – because so many of the early architectural records have been lost – a stand-alone architecture section is by necessity going to be very spotty. (As mentioned above, even the usually-authoritative Pevsner is unsure even of the century of construction, and a firm set of records doesn't start until 1684.) A chronological narrative avoids a large gap between 1514 and 1684, where we can show that the house existed and was occupied but have no architectural history, by allowing us to at least cover the occupants of the house (who are documented).
- If there's a broad consensus to re-split the article into separate sections, it could certainly be done, but I think it works better in this format – the history of this house is very much the history of its occupants and the assorted alterations they made, and (especially in the 19th century) the changing nature of the surrounding area, and I think in these circumstances it works better as a straight chronological narrative. – iridescent 16:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Writing an architectural history of the house would not be partcularly easy, as there is a considerable amount of conflicting evidence. What is possible and not too hard, is to include two written descriptions, one of the house as it appeared in the painting and two engravings of the late 17th century, and another description of the house as it is now. This should also mention the interiors. You said before that the toilet block was evidence of changes made in the 20th century. Were there changes in the Art Deco style made to the interiors?
- I would tend to structure this so that the description of the present house comes towards the top, before the history of the owners. I would tend to call the section "Description" rather than "Architecture".
- The description of the earlier state, based on the Primary evidence of the pictures could then be included at the point in the narrative at which the painting was done. I would be happy to contribute a description of the earlier state.
- Otherwise, I agree that moving through the history of the house, owner by owner, works well in this particular case. I would not suggest a complete restructuring, because of the nature of the house itself.
- Just thought about this. An easy way to go would be to merely relabel the headings with a date or the name of a period. Then it would constitute a history of the house, rather than a history of its owners. :-) Amandajm (talk) 04:39, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I see there has been a reorganization of the article. Should I reread it or wait? Awadewit (talk) 02:50, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It should (touch wood) be stable in its current structure. – iridescent 13:29, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - This organization is much better, in my opinion, and the writing is tighter. Thanks for your hard work! Awadewit (talk) 23:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It should (touch wood) be stable in its current structure. – iridescent 13:29, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I see there has been a reorganization of the article. Should I reread it or wait? Awadewit (talk) 02:50, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Declaration: I have edited this page (in a minor way) in the past, so won't vote support or oppose. I think it is a good informative and well illustrated page and the prose is fine, but I do have one of two queries and observations. The info box states that the style of architecture is Elizabethan - it is not! It is stated "The house and detached tower are among the earliest uses of brick as the principal building material for an English house" - is this true? Brick building had been fairly commonplace for years before this, see Tattershall castle which is just one English example that springs instantly to mind. Is all the brick work contemporary to the stated building of the house in 1513? - I doubt much of it is. So is this statement true "the current house is one of the oldest surviving English brick houses."? The tower is interesting - the machiolations are crenelations look to have been added (to romanticise it) in the early 19th/late 18th century. Whatever, I don't see any Tudor features to that tower at all, so what leads to the conclusion that it is Tudor? In all, it's a good, interesting page, but, I would prefer to see solid complete sections on architecture and history, to my mind the article seems all over the place with too many little half sections. It needs to be made more solid. I don't agree with those, above, who feel this is not possible. Giano (talk) 12:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree entirely about the infobox; that's my fault entirely, as I added "Elizabethan" as a placeholder and forgot to expand it – now fixed (to the clumsy Elizabethan/Georgian/Gothic Revival, but I can't think of a clearer way to summarise the confusing melange of architectural styles).The "one of the oldest surviving brick houses in England" is a direct quote from Pevsner (from the introduction of London volume 4 – page 11 in the current edition). As it seems to be causing problems, I'm more than happy to remove it if it's causing problems – I agree that it's potentially misleading (Forty Hall, for example, is only a couple of miles away and is also brick-built and from the same period). Regarding the tower, I agree that it doesn't look Tudor, but as every source seems to concur that it dates from the late 15th or early 16th century, I think we need to go with what the sources say. (The crenellations definitely date to before the 18th century – they're already there in this engraving of circa 1700 based on a 1686 painting.)
As I say above, it's certainly possible to separate the architecture and inhabitants back out into separate sections, but I think it's a more useful article as a single chronological narrative, as it makes it clearer as to who was making which alteration at which time – a separate Architecture section would need to keep breaking off to explain who all the persons involved were, duplicating content. – iridescent 16:11, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree entirely about the infobox; that's my fault entirely, as I added "Elizabethan" as a placeholder and forgot to expand it – now fixed (to the clumsy Elizabethan/Georgian/Gothic Revival, but I can't think of a clearer way to summarise the confusing melange of architectural styles).The "one of the oldest surviving brick houses in England" is a direct quote from Pevsner (from the introduction of London volume 4 – page 11 in the current edition). As it seems to be causing problems, I'm more than happy to remove it if it's causing problems – I agree that it's potentially misleading (Forty Hall, for example, is only a couple of miles away and is also brick-built and from the same period). Regarding the tower, I agree that it doesn't look Tudor, but as every source seems to concur that it dates from the late 15th or early 16th century, I think we need to go with what the sources say. (The crenellations definitely date to before the 18th century – they're already there in this engraving of circa 1700 based on a 1686 painting.)
- Regarding the info box - that is one of the problems with info boxes and historic buildings. At least, as yet, no one has forced the dreaded "design team" section upon it. All this complicated detail needs to be properly explained in the lead, an info box in this instance is just meaningless. I think the the page does need a synopsis of the architecture in a section of its own, eg: The building was remodelled in 1650 with a new roof; in 1750, the west wing with sash windows was built; in 1850, an extension in appalling taste was added, in 1950 a new lavatory block was built and so on with a short architectural description of each development. Then in a later section you can say Sir Humphrey Bumphrey was responsible for the 1750 wing, where he kept his mistress and 14 cats - try to distinguish the architecture and what happened within. This is so near FA standard - don't despair. Giano (talk) 20:35, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe you (Giano) have heard my opinions of infoboxes on architectural articles and the necessity thereof once or twice, but I thought that in this case it might actually be quite useful to have it as a summary near the top. I agree with adding a synopsis of the architecture to the lead – I'll have a go at one, although I still think that it makes sense to have the details of the changes in the text, attached to the section on the people who made each change. – iridescent 16:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK then, let me know when you are done, then we'll see if we can rustle up some independent reviewers who are interested and knowledgable on the subject. Giano (talk) 16:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tower I'm sure that there is a source somewhere that says the crenellations were added to the tower in the 19th century. This plainly isn't accurate, because of the pics.
- The source that I found makes it clear that the purpose of the tower was known, and there hardly seems reason to doubt that statement, made in the 1820s.
- I've yet to see any source that says the purpose of the tower is known. There's speculation that it was a dovecote or somehow connected with falconry, but the sources saying that make it clear that it's conjecture. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yet there is another source that says that a previous owner didn't know what the tower was for, but kept it in order. This seems a very curious contradiction. Until one looks at the map of the 1600s.
- Ok! Here's some more questions to consider:
- Nobody except you is interpreting the red shaded area as depicting a roof. It clearly shows the red walls bounding the south and west of the estate from the Moselle floodplain, which still stand today. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Returning to the map. There is a statement in the caption in the present article that neither the house nor church is depicted accurately.
- In the case of the house, we are looking at it from the rear (because north is south and south is north). (so east is east and west is west and never the twain shall meet..... ). We really have no idea if it is an accurate depiction of the house or not.
- This is a small detail from a much larger map, which depicts dozens of buildings. As plenty of structures such as Dovecote Manor and the Tottenham High Cross can be verified against contemporary sources as not being shown correctly, there's insufficient grounds to assume Clay's depiction of this particular building is accurate without corroborating evidence from elsewhere. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In the case of the church, the map shows a building with a tower at the western end, the nave higher than the north aisle (which is the one we can see), the nave/chancel continuing at the same height beyond the aisle, the aisle being crossed by a transept or vestry with a high gable, which is well towards the eastern end of the building. Though crudely drawn, all these features are still visible in the church as it exists today. The one feature which is depicted on the map that is no longer present is a spire on the tower. Let me put it to you that I believe that describing the depiction of the church as inaccurate is in error.
- The depiction of the church has no particular resemblance to the church as exists today, and is identical to the depiction of other churches on the map. (The buildings on the map are almost all shown in generic forms, with all houses identical and with north-cacing doors and windows and all churches shown as long huts.) The long straight building ending in a pointed spire has no particular resemblance to the actual All Hallows, which is a cruciform Norman church with a crennelated tower, and certainly not enough resemblance to claim that it's an architecturally accurate depiction. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The house. What we see in the image on the map of the 1600s is the "back view" of the house, presumably. The tower which still exists (the "well tower", if I may call it that) stands to the right side of the main part of the house. The "back view" shows us two blocks with gables, and what could be another tower, rising out of the centre of the building.
- One thing is absolutely unmistakable. This is that (on the map at least) there was another tower, narrower than the "well tower" and at the diagonally opposite corner of the building. This tower is topped by a spire.
- My question is this: when a previous owner said that he maintained the old tower because of its history (or words to that effect), was he in fact referring to the tower at the north-eastern corner of the building, (and not longer there,) and not the well-tower which stood in a decline near the south-western corner of the building, the purpose of which he was perfectly familiar with?
- If he was, there's no evidence for it, so we're back into original research. It's certainly possible that the map is correct in showing a tower on the northeast corner, but there's no written, pictorial or archaeological evidence for said tower being there. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it's insufficient grounds for inclusion in a Wikipedia article. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Foundations. There is a stament in one of the texts that the "foundations" indicate the great antiqity of the building. Which foundations precisely?
- Not sure what you're talking about – which source? The only "great antiquity" quote I can think of is the 2nd Baron Coleraine's "In respect to its great antiquity more than conveniency, I keep the old brick tower in good repair, although I am not able to discover the founder thereof; and among the other anticaglia of this place I range Sir William Compton's coat of armes, which I took out of the old porch when I raised the tower in the front of the house", but that's a reference to the round tower and the remodelling of the south porch, not to the foundations of the building itself. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The archaeologists dug in a couple of places. One dig appears to have taken place in the vicinity of the north-eastern corner of the present house.
- At some point the archaeologists turned up old chalk foundations. It would be interesting to know more about these foundations, precisely what they were like, how extensive, and how deep. Someone must have written a "dig report".
- They may well have done, but if they have it's certainly not been published. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Are the foundations of the south front in evidence? Are the lower courses of bricks of the south front any different from those further up the building? What sort of bricks and bond are used in the "well tower" and how do they comply with the south front?
- The tower is built of typical Elizabethan pantile type bricks – I haven't the slightest idea about the bond used, to be honest, although someone who really cared could work it out. The facade of the house itself has been so heavily rebuilt that the brick facing is consistent on each of the four faces (although it varies between the four faces), while the interior is swathed in plaster from its time as a school so there's nothing of the original stonework/brickwork to be seen. – iridescent 16:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- PS I loathe all boxes, unless they are horizontal and at the bottom of the page, like the one that lists the dioceses and cathedrals of England.
- Amandajm (talk) 12:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. All architectural pages on older subjects suffer from the same thorny structural issue, namely: should it be based on a chronological narrative, or on topic-oriented sections such as "Architecture", "History", etc ? Both patterns have their advantages. Neither is perfect, as discussed above and here, and the main author has apparently changed his mind a few times. I like the compromise currently in place, which seems to be the product of much thought, and reads very well to somebody—me—coming to the page for the first time. Good prose, too. Bishonen | talk 13:58, 29 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]
- Support. A reasonably comprehensive account of the little-known Grade I building in London. More information on architecture is welcome, though. --Ghirla-трёп- 07:35, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As mentioned somewhere in the morass above, it's a hard one to expand architecture-wise – the records of its building and early history are destroyed, so even the most reliable sources are just speculation – it would be perfectly possible to make a lot of educated guesses, but they would be pure OR. The only two recent sources to discuss the architectural history are Pegram's 1987 paper (later published as a stand-alone short book) and Pevsner, both of which have been pretty much strip-mined dry for what little we have. – iridescent 19:07, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support. Amandajm (talk) 12:54, 5 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:55, 5 May 2009 [15].
- Nominator(s): The Clawed One (talk) 23:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I believe the article meets all Featured Article criteria. It uses images to enhance the subject and uses non-free images sparingly, is written in a neutral and grammatically correct format, and is properly organized and sectioned. Notability has been established by numerous third-party sources, the plot sections are brief and written out-of-universe, and all information within the article is factual and verifiable. It has already been assessed as a Good Article, and with the improvements made since I believe it has met the criteria to be a Featured Article. The Clawed One (talk) 23:30, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: While you do cite a good number of reviews, I would say that it needs more from magazines. As is often said on FACs for older games, sites that are considered reliable now might not have been when the game was released. It was a fairly major release, if I remember correctly, so finding a few magazine reviews shouldn't be difficult. Props on the newspaper sources, though. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply: The two most prominent sites cited are GameSpot and IGN. IGN, as far as I can tell, existed before Soul Reaver was released, and I believe GameSpot as well though it was under a different domain name back then (videogames.com, I think it was). For magazine and newspaper sources, the papers came from another user and I've no idea how he got them. Alone, I didn't have much success finding printed material to source. The Clawed One (talk) 18:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, here's PC Zone's review of the PC version: [16]. That was a UK magazine review, now archived online. Judging by this, it was reviewed by OPM, EGM and Next Generation, as well. User:Mitaphane has all these issues according to this, this (October 1999 review) and this (June 25, 2003). Mitaphane can be contacted for scans and/or excerpts from each review on his talk page. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I'll talk to him, if he can provide magazine information I'll certainly incorporate what he has into the article if possible. The Clawed One (talk) 20:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In case you haven't, you might want to try Mitaphane's email. S/he hasn't edited since April 1. — TKD::{talk} 05:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I incorporated a bit from the PC Zone review in. One thing I remembered as well, I previously had cited an issue of Official Playstation Magazine for providing a demo disk for the game, but removed it because I couldn't find any appreciable information on the exact issue, just that the magazine came with a demo disk. >< The Clawed One (talk) 20:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, I'll talk to him, if he can provide magazine information I'll certainly incorporate what he has into the article if possible. The Clawed One (talk) 20:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm the one who found the off-line newspaper reviews (through InfoTrac). Unfortunately the subscription that I have access to seems to find more on Soul Reaver 2 than Soul Reaver, which doesn't help this article. — TKD::{talk} 21:44, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And... as soon as I wrote that, I found Computer Gaming World's write-up. I didn't catch it in my initially two times through the search results because they somewhat confusingly call the game Legacy of Kain 2: Soul Reaver, which I must have interpreted as Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver 2. It's definitely talking about the first Soul Reaver because it's from January 2000. I'll incorporate it later tonight. — TKD::{talk} 21:53, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done. I also found a blurb on BBI action figures for Raziel and Kain, which I added. — TKD::{talk} 22:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, here's PC Zone's review of the PC version: [16]. That was a UK magazine review, now archived online. Judging by this, it was reviewed by OPM, EGM and Next Generation, as well. User:Mitaphane has all these issues according to this, this (October 1999 review) and this (June 25, 2003). Mitaphane can be contacted for scans and/or excerpts from each review on his talk page. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply: The two most prominent sites cited are GameSpot and IGN. IGN, as far as I can tell, existed before Soul Reaver was released, and I believe GameSpot as well though it was under a different domain name back then (videogames.com, I think it was). For magazine and newspaper sources, the papers came from another user and I've no idea how he got them. Alone, I didn't have much success finding printed material to source. The Clawed One (talk) 18:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, I have an old copy of Official UK Playstation Magazine (issue 42) sitting in front of me, which has a 4-page analysis on the game, including many allusions to the deleted stuff. Most of it is an interview with the producer, Rosaura Sandoval - the editors managed to misspell Raziel (Ralzeil) but it's valid nonetheless. I also have another issue with the official review, buried somewhere. If you want some citations from either/both, let me know. Monere (talk) 12:38, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, that would be greatly appreciated. The Clawed One (talk) 14:59, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tech. Review
- 0 disambiguation links were found with the dab finder tool.
- 0 dead external link were found with the links checker tool.
- 0 ref formatting errors were found with WP:REFTOOLS.--Truco 19:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Just noticed this, but the lead doesn't mention anything from the Development section. It should, especially given that the legal issues and other delays caused material to be cut, which in turn influenced reviewers' reception of the story. — TKD::{talk} 22:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- Done. — TKD::{talk} 23:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment on images.
File:Legacy Of Kain- Sould Reaver Cover.jpg needs a full fair-use rationale.- I reduced the resolution on File:SoulReaverRealmComparison.JPG, since its primary purpose was to illustrate the general comparison of the two realms, so violating the general 0.1 megapixel guideline for that didn't seem to be too strong of a case for me.
File:SoulReaverEarlyConcept.JPG is sourced to thelostworlds.net, a fan site, but the copyright is actually held by Eidos, the game's publisher. Where did thelostworlds get the image? If it was from hacking the deleted material in the game, then we're basing the image on the reliability of the site (which is bad). If it's actually from a game magazine, we should get and cite it from the magazine directly instead.
- — TKD::{talk} 05:53, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I cover I didn't upload, not sure what to do about that. As for the Lost Worlds, I can't even find the original image on the site now. The Clawed One (talk) 06:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I found the image. It's listed with several other alternate or deleted weapons, but the page doesn't mention where or how the images were acquired. The Clawed One (talk) 06:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added the fair-use rationale for the cover image. As for the The Lost Worlds' image, if we can't verify its provenance (pending being able to find print sources), it should probably be removed. — TKD::{talk} 07:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I can confirm that the image is from a prerelease magazine, not from hacking of any version of the finished game. However I have no memory of which specific magazine or issue. I'm pretty certain it's been discontinued. You could ask Ben Lincoln through email if worst comes to worst - I'm sure he'd have no trouble sourcing it. Monere (talk) 13:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I emailed him, he confirms that the image appeared in "2 or 3" game magazines, but can't recall which ones. The Clawed One (talk) 16:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That's a pity. I'll go looking for my other magazine with the review, which had alternative shots you could use and source. Pretty sure a few of them are on The Lost Worlds. Monere (talk) 22:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I emailed him, he confirms that the image appeared in "2 or 3" game magazines, but can't recall which ones. The Clawed One (talk) 16:09, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I can confirm that the image is from a prerelease magazine, not from hacking of any version of the finished game. However I have no memory of which specific magazine or issue. I'm pretty certain it's been discontinued. You could ask Ben Lincoln through email if worst comes to worst - I'm sure he'd have no trouble sourcing it. Monere (talk) 13:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added the fair-use rationale for the cover image. As for the The Lost Worlds' image, if we can't verify its provenance (pending being able to find print sources), it should probably be removed. — TKD::{talk} 07:11, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Alright, I found the image. It's listed with several other alternate or deleted weapons, but the page doesn't mention where or how the images were acquired. The Clawed One (talk) 06:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ←Yeah; a similar development screenshot from a reliable source would serve the purpose. If we can get one and incorporate the other print magazines mentioned, I would support this article for FA. — TKD::{talk} 10:53, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I cover I didn't upload, not sure what to do about that. As for the Lost Worlds, I can't even find the original image on the site now. The Clawed One (talk) 06:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "To identify and illustrate the game or program in its own article or a closely related article" is not an acceptable non-free content rationale. Rationales must be catered to the exact situation; the specific image and article. When writing the rationale you should know whether it's a game and in which article it appears. Jay32183 (talk) 02:24, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK; I've revised and expanded on the rationale. — TKD::{talk} 04:38, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
- What makes http://www.rpgamer.com/games/lok/loksr/loksrrev.html a reliable source?
- Likewise http://www.iasig.org/pubs/interviews/eidosjh.shtml?
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:26, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- RPGamer has been cited by other reliable sources, such as the Sci-Fi Channel's news wire, Pacific Business News (run by American City Business Journals), and Ars Technica (run by Condé Nast Publications). The site also has standards for their game reviews, so there is editorial oversight.
- According to their about page, the IASIG is a subgroup of the MIDI Manufacturers Association, which is responsible for maintaining the MIDI standard (an important electronic music standard). The page referenced is an interview with the game's audio designers, which seems to fit with the group's focus on interactive audio. — TKD::{talk} 15:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll leave these out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
Was the game released anywhere besides NA? GameFAQs says the game was released in Europe, and a Japanese version was cancelled.Gameplay needs just a little more, I think, to be accessible to a non-gamer. There's no mention of the perspective that the camera uses, for instance, or the genre. Wikilinks to both of those may help a non-gamer better understand the game.The series in the infobox should probably be italicized.Is the MobyGames external link necessary?Can the publishers in the reviews infobox be arranged alphabetically?The article's flow is great until that list of voice actors. Can it be rearranged somehow?
Support. I'm satisfied with the research and use of sources. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 06:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding the voice actors, I was the one who suggested that it be presented as a list, simply because the prose version was essentially: "Y and Z were voiced by X. X2 voiced Y2." I'm not a big fan of lists, but I felt that, in this scenario, it was the better way to present the information (while copyediting I struggled with a way to present that information less blandly). The Clawed One (talk · contribs) said that he had a better prose version, though, so I'd be curious to see whether he's been able to invigorate that section. — TKD::{talk} 12:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks better now. — Levi van Tine (t – c) 08:07, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I removed the MobyGames link. It doesn't really add anything. — TKD::{talk} 09:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Finally dug up OPM UK's official review of the game, with pre-release screenshots. Both of these images at The Lost Worlds appear in this review:
You could use them as replacements for the Human Citadel image which unfortunately, like Ben, I've been unable to source. As for the review, if you'd like to include it in Reception, OPM gave Soul Reaver a rating of 9/10 and their StarPlayer award ("Special games which deserve to go on your must buy list"). There were a multitude of comparisons made to Tomb Raider 3 (OPM felt Tomb Raider was narrowly superior). A promo screenshot of Raziel was also used as the cover image, if that's of any use.
Details: Reviewer - Daniel Griffiths, Issue - 43, Date - March 1999. Hope this is of some help, if you need any further specifics I'm happy to oblige. Monere (talk) 17:18, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Uploaded a new image, don't know what to do about the rationale now though. To answer the above questions, it seems the rating box can't be arranged alphabetically, must be how the template is set-up. I added a tiny bit more to gameplay, removed the external link to MG, and restructured the VA section. I looked but couldn't find anything so far about a European release, but I'll keep searching. The Clawed One (talk) 18:19, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Found it, GameSpot confirms that it was released in Europe. It also says it was re-released as part of the "Ricochet" collection, and a Platinum edition. Does anyone know what those terms mean? I'd note them in the article if I could explain it. The Clawed One (talk) 18:24, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I live in Europe and bought it here, plus several UK magazines reviewed it, so it's reasonable to conclude that the game was released outside of NA. LoK is very popular in Brazil, too, so it's likely there was also a SA release. Matter of fact, mine is the "Ricochet" version (the exact same game, just an Eidos re-release with a different case after the initial shipping due to overwhelming popularity and sales, similar to Sold Out Software). The Platinum range is similar except handled by Sony. Monere (talk) 19:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the info. So Platinum Range in Europe is basically the same as Greatest Hits in NA then? The Clawed One (talk) 22:30, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I live in Europe and bought it here, plus several UK magazines reviewed it, so it's reasonable to conclude that the game was released outside of NA. LoK is very popular in Brazil, too, so it's likely there was also a SA release. Matter of fact, mine is the "Ricochet" version (the exact same game, just an Eidos re-release with a different case after the initial shipping due to overwhelming popularity and sales, similar to Sold Out Software). The Platinum range is similar except handled by Sony. Monere (talk) 19:57, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Someone slapped a template on the article for too many copyrighted images. Anyone else have a problem with this, because no one has said anything about too many images until now. The Clawed One (talk) 19:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that all three images would be justifiable.
However, to be compliant, the development image should be tied into the prose a little better; the superseded glyph menu that the caption highlights isn't mentioned in the running prose, so it's a bit confusing to the reader. Also, the Official UK PlayStation Magazine review needs page numbers, as does the updated development image.— TKD::{talk} 00:20, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- I'd certainly add page numbers, if Monere can provide them. The Clawed One (talk) 16:44, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Monere left them on my talk page. I see that you added them to the article; I added the page number to the image description page. — TKD::{talk} 01:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd certainly add page numbers, if Monere can provide them. The Clawed One (talk) 16:44, 24 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support, for what it's worth. Note that, if it wasn't obvious, I've been significantly involved in copyediting, finding and adding a few sources here and there, and addressing miscellaneous concerns. I've read the article over several times before and during FAC, and I now think that the above concerns are addressed satisfactorily. I'd personally feel more comfortable if the Next Generation and EGM sources could be consulted. However, given that their scores, according to GameRankings, are fairly in line with those of other reviews, and given that major sources—electronic and print, American and UK—are cited already, covering all three versions of the game, I feel that coverage is sufficient to be "thorough and representative" as required by criterion 1c. — TKD::{talk} 07:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: Sorry, TKD; I hadn't thought to check my talk page the last few days, so I only just got your message. Honestly, I still think it needs the Next Gen and EGM sources, due to the sheer number of times the GameSpot and IGN reviews are cited. Even if the general critical opinion is behind what they're saying, it would be best to show that by replacing a few mentionings of the GS and IGN reviews with other sources that say the same things. It also wouldn't hurt to expand the range of sources covering the console versions, preferably with the EGM and Next Gen reviews. I'll add my support if these issues are taken care of. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I can't work with what I don't have. I don't have Next Gen or EGM, and no one has volunteered the information on them. The Clawed One (talk) 02:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, much of what the Gamespot and IGN reviews is just from the Gameplay section describing the gameplay. I don't see how that's a problem since no matter which magazine or website reviews it, it's the same gameplay and the same game. The Clawed One (talk) 02:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I was referring to the number of times the article mentions IGN and GS in the reception section. I hadn't even looked at their overall usage. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll inquire at WT:VG to see whether anyone else can help. One thing that may make tracking down the EGM review more difficult is that I somehow doubt that it's actually originally from 2003, four years after the game's release, as GameRankings claims. — TKD::{talk} 02:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Has Mitaphane been emailed regarding these reviews? I've never known him to ignore requests; he might just not have noticed. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I asked The Clawed One (talk · contribs) that a couple days ago, and apparently there has been no reply yet. It's possible that Mitaphane is busy in real life; I certainly know the feeling. — TKD::{talk} 03:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added Game Informer's score. I also used GI as a source to add a few new things to the reception section. -sesuPRIME talk • contribs 08:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks; it's much appreciated. — TKD::{talk} 09:02, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I added Game Informer's score. I also used GI as a source to add a few new things to the reception section. -sesuPRIME talk • contribs 08:50, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I asked The Clawed One (talk · contribs) that a couple days ago, and apparently there has been no reply yet. It's possible that Mitaphane is busy in real life; I certainly know the feeling. — TKD::{talk} 03:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Has Mitaphane been emailed regarding these reviews? I've never known him to ignore requests; he might just not have noticed. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 03:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I just came back to check out how the article looks with the GI review. I'm sorry if it sounds like I have a bone to pick, but even though the GI stuff is welcome, the IGN and GS reviews are still mentioned either in name or through a citation something like 7 times in the first paragraph of reception alone. Surely other reviews exist that could replace at least a few of those. Even just removing a few of them entirely would help; the whole section just seems incredibly biased because of the constant barrage of the same 2-3 reviews. If it isn't a bother, I could just shut up and replace/trim them myself, to keep my obnoxious comments at a minimum. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:22, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- No worries mate, a little sentence rearranging, and the two are mentioned once in each paragraph. The Clawed One (talk) 22:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Hey, that's a pretty big improvement. The only thing I think now is that it could use one more print source; it has a pretty good assortment of reviews, but one more print review of the PSX version or Dreamcast version would cause me to support. I'll trawl the Internet and see if I can find anything. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- And there's Mitaphane with the DC and PSX Next Gen reviews. The EGM review would be nice, as it's the most famous and important console magazine, more or less. But the addition of Next Gen is enough for me. No reason to wait until you include them; I'll support now. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 23:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So......what happens now? The Clawed One (talk) 00:46, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You wait for either: A) The nomination to close; or B) Someone else to show up and oppose. In the mean time, mind incorporating those Next Gen scans Mitaphane gave you on his talk page? My support was on the condition that you put the Next Gen reviews in there. It shouldn't take long. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ah, didn't notice those. Certainly, I'll look at them and work them in shortly. The Clawed One (talk) 04:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Unfortunately I don't have enough for citation yet, I need to find out the issue info and such. The Clawed One (talk) 05:14, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done, all three issue scans have been added. I believe, if it were needed, that the scans could also be used to cite parts of the Gameplay section and lighten the load on the IGN/GameSpot/RPGamer refs being used there currently. The Clawed One (talk) 06:54, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You wait for either: A) The nomination to close; or B) Someone else to show up and oppose. In the mean time, mind incorporating those Next Gen scans Mitaphane gave you on his talk page? My support was on the condition that you put the Next Gen reviews in there. It shouldn't take long. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:55, 5 May 2009 [19].
- Nominator(s): Magic♪piano 14:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This year is the 400th anniversary of the discovery of Lake Champlain by the eponymous European, and the 250th anniversary of several events in the French and Indian War, some of which are relevant to Fort Ticonderoga.
I'd like to believe this article is ready for FA consideration (as my first nomination was); it's been through MILHIST ACR and received additional attention since. Thanks for your time and feedback. Magic♪piano 14:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
http://darter.ocps.net/classroom/revolution/ticon.htm deadlinks
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That link was good back in the ACR; oh well, gone now. Magic♪piano 14:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- ...yes, it was. :/ —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 17:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That link was good back in the ACR; oh well, gone now. Magic♪piano 14:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - one dab ("vanguard") needs to be addressed (the other, to Ticonderoga class, is purposeful). —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 17:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Vanguard, while a dab page, seemed like the best place to link. I could link it to tactical formation; I'm not sure whether that really makes any more sense. Magic♪piano 17:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support - I reviewed this in the A-class review, and I think that this is ready to be featured. —Ed 17 (Talk / Contribs) 17:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I just tried refining the reference to the NHL summary webpage about the site. It should not be asserted that the webpage is the "listing" of the site on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places or that the webpage is the designation of the place as a National Historic Landmark. Another example FA with a NHL summary webpage reference, formatted differently, is Joseph Priestley House. Perhaps that could be adapted. But, the titles of references in both my version here and in that example (as "Joseph Priestley House National Historic Landmark Summary Listing") is not exactly the title of the webpage. Not sure how to present best. doncram (talk) 17:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I find the NPS/NHL page titles to be extremely unhelpful (they're generic, not even showing the place being described); your language is probably as good as any. Magic♪piano 17:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tech. Review
Fix the 2 disambiguation links, found with the dab finder tool
- There are no dead external links nor errors in ref formatting with the links checker tool and WP:REFTOOLS, respectively.--Truco 02:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed the dab links. Magic♪piano 12:17, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Noble Comments - Hm, just reading through the lead, I find some problems: "an aura of invincibility", "ill-considered", "merely" are all rather POV. "During the American Revolutionary War..." That sentence seems to be almost a run-on. "became a stop on tourist routes of the area" feels rather informal. And: "Early in the 20th century, the fort was restored by its private owners, and is now operated by a private foundation" You repeat "private" twice in this sentence. There are other similar corrections to make in the body of the article, but these are just examples. Noble Story (talk • contributions)
- I'll agree that "ill-considered" is POV (and have removed it), although there are probably few historians who would disagree with the assessment. I'm uncertain why you think "aura of invincibility" is somehow POV.
- I've recast the Rev War elements in the lead, and removed the superfluous "private".
- I'm not sure how to respond to your comment about being a "stop on a tourist route".
- I will be copyediting the rest of the article, just waiting for more feedback. Magic♪piano 15:09, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, "aura of invincibility" is hardly a phrase used for just anything. Maybe you have a ref or two to justify the use of that kind of term? Noble Story (talk • contributions)
- True. See the Wayne quote in the Saratoga campaign section. If you want historical perspective supporting this idea, I can also pull in a quote I used in Capture of Fort Ticonderoga about Ti being the "Gibraltar of America". The idea that Ti was an invincible bastion had a great deal of currency in 1777, and its defense was complicated because of it. (This is an idea that I've put more detail on in Battle of Ticonderoga (1777). If you think the treatment here is inadequate to support that phrase, I can certainly elaborate.) Magic♪piano 14:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, "aura of invincibility" is hardly a phrase used for just anything. Maybe you have a ref or two to justify the use of that kind of term? Noble Story (talk • contributions)
- Comment
- "The site controls a portage between Lake Champlain and Lake George that was strategically important during the 18th-century colonial conflicts between Great Britain and France, as it controlled commonly-used trade routes between the English-controlled Hudson River Valley and the French-controlled Saint Lawrence River Valley." Too many uses of the word "control" in this one long sentence.
—Mattisse (Talk) 00:29, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I went ahead and fixed some issues with the lede, such as two overlong sentences and use of peacock terms like "aura of invincibility". Pretty darn good article and an interesting read. --mav (talk) 22:25, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I did some copy editing. The article is clearly written and well organized, in my opinion, and carefully referenced. There probably too many External links and I am thinking of removing them. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:17, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks to both of you for your edits and support. Magic♪piano 23:26, 26 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose due to image concerns as follows:
- File:The Victory of Montcalms Troops at Carillon by Henry Alexander Ogden.JPG: in which media was this painting published in before 1923? If this painting was first published between 1923 and 2002, then it is not in public domain.
In this case, I can find no earlier illustration of it in either book or catalogue than p. 81 of Ticonderoga 1758 (2000), which means that it would be copyrighted until 31 December 2047.[20]Note that publication of a painting means the distribution or public exhibition of its copies.[21] Hence a painting that exists on its own is not considered published by any means.- The original upload mentions this book as a source. I actually am intending to visit a library containing it to see what, if anything, it has to say about provenance of this image. Considering the artist was nearly 70 in 1923, and he was an illustrator whose other works were generally used in books, it's certainly plausible that this painting was published in some form before then. Magic♪piano 03:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It was published earlier, but copyrighted. Earliest known publication of this painting is as the cover of the first volume, first issue of American Heritage (September 1949).[22] The publication was copyrighted,[23] which has been renewed in 1976 under registration R641454.[24] (p. 394.) This painting is not in public domain until 2045. Verifiability matters here. Jappalang (talk) 06:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I understand that verifiability is what matters. I'm just pointing out that there is (to me, at least) a sufficient body of evidence that assertions of "first publication" dating to the 1940s are somewhat suspect. I will point out that the Chartrand book's cover bears this image; Chartrand describes the image as "an early 20th-century-painting" in the credits. I've sent email to the curator at the Fort Ticonderoga Museum, which owns the painting, with questions about provenance and publication history. Magic♪piano 13:58, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- One more note: the definitions section of the copyright code also says this: The term “copies” includes the material object, other than a phonorecord, in which the work is first fixed. I (not a lawyer) would read this to mean the painting itself is considered a copy for the purposes of the act. Magic♪piano 14:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Creation does not equate publication. A painting created in 1920 does not mean it was published in 1920. I have already considered Chartrand's book (in my first comment); as such I see no relevance in it here again. It cannot prove the first publishing, nor is it the first publishing of this painting. Publication is defined as "The offering to distribute copies or phonorecords to a group of persons for purposes of further distribution, public performance, or public display, constitutes publication. A public performance or display of a work does not of itself constitute publication." Note the plural, not singular. Jappalang (talk) 14:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- While I'm waiting for more feedback from the fort's curator, I've also invited the original WP uploader to comment here, but he appears to be only intermittently active. If I do not see satisfactory resolution by Sunday, I will remove the image from this article in order to not impede the nomination. Magic♪piano 21:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed the Ogden image. If its usability is ever properly established, I'll put it back. Magic♪piano 16:42, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It was published earlier, but copyrighted. Earliest known publication of this painting is as the cover of the first volume, first issue of American Heritage (September 1949).[22] The publication was copyrighted,[23] which has been renewed in 1976 under registration R641454.[24] (p. 394.) This painting is not in public domain until 2045. Verifiability matters here. Jappalang (talk) 06:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The original upload mentions this book as a source. I actually am intending to visit a library containing it to see what, if anything, it has to say about provenance of this image. Considering the artist was nearly 70 in 1923, and he was an illustrator whose other works were generally used in books, it's certainly plausible that this painting was published in some form before then. Magic♪piano 03:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
File:Fortticonderoga inside.jpg: why is this image tagged with commons:Template:PD-self and commons:Template:Copyrighted free use? Which is the original (and correct) license? Can an admin check what license this image was released under when it was on Wikipedia?- I'll see if I can get an admin to poke at this. Magic♪piano 03:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- User:Antandrus has kindly retrieved the Wikipedia file history:
- 22:06, 29 May 2006 . . Ebedgert (talk | contribs | block) 640×480 (99,036 bytes) (This photograph was taken by Wikipedia member Ebedgert.)
- He also retrieved the page from that date, which reads as follows:
- == Summary == This photograph was taken by Wikipedia member Ebedgert. == Licensing == {{PD-self}}
- I interpret this to mean that {{Copyrighted free use}} was incorrectly added when it was moved to Commons, so I have updated the Commons page accordingly. Magic♪piano 15:21, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
File:New York Adirondack.svg: derived from File:New York blank.svg, from which public domain map or compilation of sources is this based on?- The map's creator appears to be dormant. Are you concerned with the entire data set (i.e. including the blank), or just the Adirondack addition? I obviously can't speak for the source actually used, but the bounds of Adirondack Park appear to be freely available. (I imagine that data usable to populate the blank is also available from the same site.) Magic♪piano 03:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- More concerned with the geographical boundaries set by the blank. Jappalang (talk) 06:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The map's creator appears to be dormant. Are you concerned with the entire data set (i.e. including the blank), or just the Adirondack addition? I obviously can't speak for the source actually used, but the bounds of Adirondack Park appear to be freely available. (I imagine that data usable to populate the blank is also available from the same site.) Magic♪piano 03:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Awaiting feedback. Jappalang (talk) 02:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm the creator of File:New York blank.svg. I can't remember now what map I traced it from; it was probably one of the public-domain ones at the Perry-Castañeda collection. But it doesn't really matter - information like the locations of coastlines and boundaries isn't copyrightable. Only the creative content of maps (the use of various colors, fonts, and symbols, etc.) can be copyrighted, and this image contains none of the creative content of the map it was traced from. The map is thus completely free to use and to make derivatives like File:New York Adirondack.svg from. —Angr 12:51, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Boundaries or not, Commons deem it as copyrightable, per commons:Commons:Image casebook#Maps: "Maps are always copyright works unless they are old enough to be in the public domain. You may not upload copies of copyright maps to Commons, nor may you trace or even re-draw such a map yourself. Any map you create yourself must be wholly based on public domain sources or on sources that have been released under a suitable free license." Tracing obviously does not apply to colors or fonts, and no exceptions for boundaries or coastlines are given (such lines are subject to the discretion of cartographers to omit or go into fine detail). Regardless, since you have brought up the Perry-Castañeda collection, might the base map of NY be the map you used? Jappalang (talk) 13:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I think so. It looks familiar. But what the Commons link says about tracing maps is simply mistaken. —Angr 14:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you, I shall note the map as the base map for the blank and strike the issue. As for the Commons ruling, I am just following what it say. If it is wrong, someone should voice out at the Admins board there to get the ruling changed. Jappalang (talk) 14:14, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I think so. It looks familiar. But what the Commons link says about tracing maps is simply mistaken. —Angr 14:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Boundaries or not, Commons deem it as copyrightable, per commons:Commons:Image casebook#Maps: "Maps are always copyright works unless they are old enough to be in the public domain. You may not upload copies of copyright maps to Commons, nor may you trace or even re-draw such a map yourself. Any map you create yourself must be wholly based on public domain sources or on sources that have been released under a suitable free license." Tracing obviously does not apply to colors or fonts, and no exceptions for boundaries or coastlines are given (such lines are subject to the discretion of cartographers to omit or go into fine detail). Regardless, since you have brought up the Perry-Castañeda collection, might the base map of NY be the map you used? Jappalang (talk) 13:57, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Karanacs 14:55, 5 May 2009 [25].
- Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets FA criteria. Second time through for Lane, first time it had one support, no opposes when it aged out of the system. I've now taken it through GA, though the reviewer had no recommended changes, gone through the article with a fine tooth comb, and restructured it a fair amount. I think this interesting and too often overlooked character from American history is now ready to join the ranks of the immortals at WP:FA.Wehwalt (talk) 20:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:06, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tech. Review
Fix the 1 disambiguation link (there is also a self-redirect, but I'm not sure whether its not intentional)- Ref formatting (WP:REFTOOLS) and external links are all up to standards (links checker tool).--Truco 17:12, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Dab fixed. Not sure what you are referring to with the self-redirect, can you point me in the right direction? I changed the Wikisource to Franklin Knight Lane from Franklin Lane, was that what you were talking about?--Wehwalt (talk) 23:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm guessing so, since the dab finder tool can't pick it up anymore.--Truco 00:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Probably that is what it was. Anyway, I guess your issues are resolved then. Thanks!--Wehwalt (talk) 01:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm guessing so, since the dab finder tool can't pick it up anymore.--Truco 00:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Image review
File:Lane1902.jpg - Please add a page number to the reference on the image description page so that users can find the photo in the book.File:Laneposter.jpg - Please add a page number to the reference on the image description page so that users can find the photo in the book.File:Lane1909.jpg - The link to the LOC is broken. Please fix it.File:Laneburleson.jpg - As this image is actually from the LOC and not Flickr, it would probably be best to find it there and link directly to the LOC record.
These issues should be easy to resolve. Awadewit (talk) 19:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added the page numbers, done a LOC source for Laneburleson, and added a URL for Lane1909 which seems to work, though it is a very long URL. I'm not sure it is the best URL for it. Thoughts? I'm not experienced in working with their collections and may have screwed up.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This has all been taken care of. Image issues all resolved. Awadewit (talk) 22:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for your help there.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This has all been taken care of. Image issues all resolved. Awadewit (talk) 22:10, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
images I am not happy with the licencing, they are listed as free in the US only (with one exception), the goal of wp is worldwide these should be relicenced as free everywhere is possible Fasach Nua (talk) 20:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- How do you do that?--Wehwalt (talk) 20:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If you can demonstrate they are free in their country of origin, they are generally free everywhere, if can do this tag them as {{PD}} and get them uploaded to commons using {{Template:Copy to Wikimedia Commons}} Fasach Nua (talk) 21:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Shouldn't be a problem. Lane, after all, died in 1921. I'll work on this when I can and will drop you a note on your talk page.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've moved the images to commons using a bot. A couple were already there.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:47, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Shouldn't be a problem. Lane, after all, died in 1921. I'll work on this when I can and will drop you a note on your talk page.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:04, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If you can demonstrate they are free in their country of origin, they are generally free everywhere, if can do this tag them as {{PD}} and get them uploaded to commons using {{Template:Copy to Wikimedia Commons}} Fasach Nua (talk) 21:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
- In the "Commission work" section, I would try to summarise the result of the oil pipeline investigation, and avoid calling Lane "The Californian" as this creates difficulties if the reader considers him Canadian.
- Both "nonpartisan" and "Non-Partisan" are used.
- Sandy doesn't like it when the dates are different formats. In this case, the retrieval dates are ISO format but everything else is MDY. DrKiernan (talk) 12:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the support. Non-Partisan had a specific meaning in California politics at the time, please see also the election poster, the other usage is as a common noun (the explanation of why Lane did not campaign for Wilson). It was an additional ticket that cut across partisan lines. The rest is all done.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I brought this up last time: with respect to the remark about Lane's potential as POTUS, the sources are POV and unverified. They originate with the dept. that Lane headed... The one that Wehwalt referred to as written by a "historian" is hagiographic. It now points to a newspaper, but does the newspaper have a verified source, or is it repeating hagiography? Certainly the part about Lane's presidential potential needs to be deleted. Ling.Nut.Public (talk) 09:26, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As far as I know, they did not originate with the Department of the Interior, not sure how you are getting that. Two contemporaneous newspapers said it, plus Villard. And the newspapers the day after Lane's death. I don't think that is repeating hagiography. Do you want the exact quotes of what the papers said? Or would you prefer language such as "Contemporary sources reported that it Lane had not been born in Canada, he would have become President"--Wehwalt (talk) 11:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- have you taken the time to read the Villard source? I don't mean the sentence that the quote is taken from; I mean as much as you can find on the Internet. :-) It's an embarrassing foray into pure POV, and should be completely removed as a source.. Ling.Nut.Public (talk) 11:43, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Also, I'm unable to access the newspaper link (pdf). Is it subscription-based, or is the URL incorrect...? Ling.Nut.Public (talk) 12:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- As far as I know, they did not originate with the Department of the Interior, not sure how you are getting that. Two contemporaneous newspapers said it, plus Villard. And the newspapers the day after Lane's death. I don't think that is repeating hagiography. Do you want the exact quotes of what the papers said? Or would you prefer language such as "Contemporary sources reported that it Lane had not been born in Canada, he would have become President"--Wehwalt (talk) 11:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Of course I've read it. Then I had to have myself checked for diabetes. That is why the info is inline cited to Villard. The newspaper is subscription, you have to buy an article pack. The quote in the LA Times article is "It was often said of Franklin K. Lane that if he had been born in the United States instead of Canada, he would have been presidential timber." The NY Times said, "Friends of Franklin D. (sic) Lane said that if he had been been born three years later (sic, actually seven) he would have become President of the United States. They meant that he was three years old when his mother and father moved from Canada to California ..." The Washington Post: "Mr. Lane was a native of Prince Edward Island. If he had been born in the United States, he probably would have been nominated for the Presidency by the Democratic Party, and if nominated, he probably would have been elected." If you like, I can do it as a direct quote from the newspaper, and note that Villard was a great admirer of Lane's.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:50, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(undent). Good. To be honest, I think the newspapers are just repeating fluff that Lane's bestest buddies said about him. They saw no harm, I assume, in speaking well of the man.. these were all obits, am I right? They saw no harm in speaking well of the man after he had passed away. The problem is that in the retelling, Wikipedia takes this kindhearted repetition of friends' high praise and transforms it into verifiable fact. For example, the current wording "It was often said of Lane" leaves open the question, "Said by whom, and how often is often?" So this observation needs to be dealt with in two ways: first, it should be to be attributed to the newspapers—not to Villard and not to the National Park Service (http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/sontag/lane.htm). Both of those latter two sources need to be removed from the article, IMO, as being too POV. Second, the quote about "Lane could have been POTUS" needs to be hedged in some way... I dunno, just off the top of my head (please do improve it), "After Lane's death, obituaries published in newspapers of record such as WAPO and NYT suggested that he might have been the Democratic party's nominee for POTUS, if he had been born in the US". Then cite at least WAPO and NYT and even LATimes if you're feeling energetic. :-) Sound fair? Again, I assume those were obits. Ling.Nut.Public (talk) 05:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, I will put that in. If the article is otherwise satisfactory, I hope you will support.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:16, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support I meant to support this one last time through, but missed the opportunity due to an unexpected break. The prose seems tight, references check out, and the article generally seems to meet the criteria. From a technical/semantics/nitpicky standpoint, I noticed the dates in the {{persondata}} template at the bottom are Day Month Year while the rest of the article is Month Day Year. Not sure if that's supposed to be like that for standardization reasons for if it should match the rest of the article, but that's the only item that stuck out. --auburnpilot talk 16:39, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I've always seen the persondata done in that way, regardless of nationality. And though Lane was born on PEI, he spent most of his life in the US, so I do Month day year. Thanks for the support.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: "On July 1, 1911, the Commission ordered a "sweeping investigation" into the activities of express companies, which transported and delivered parcels." What commission this is referring to is ambigious, as the section as a whole deals with Lane's work on the Interstate Commerce Commission, but the sentence immediately preceding this one mentions his election to the International Railways Congress's Permanent International Commission. Otherwise, the article looks good to me--Carabinieri (talk) 20:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC).[reply]
- Thanks, I changed "Commission" to ICC. Hope you will support.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:42, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
After further review, I have changed my Weak Oppose to Oppose. You suffer the same problems that I do as a thorough researcher of uncommonly researched subject matter. You will need a quality writer to clean up your prose to achieve the current FA standard in my opinion. I sympathize and wish you well in getting some better writers interested in the subject. I am not a good enough writer to really clean it up for you. I am willing to continue my slow review and to help you at WP:PR should it not pass. I will not be a sufficient reviewer to bring it up to what I believe is par myself.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am unable to support or opppose. If I were forced to be on one side or the other, I would concede the article is greatly improved and probably weakly support. I would prefer to remain neutral at this time.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:52, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would seem to me that it would be preferable to link to Governor of California rather than Governor of California in the WP:LEAD. Maybe you could move the California link to American Democratic politician from California. I also think Mayor of San Francisco should be linked.The lead stil does not link Mayor of San Francisco.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- It does now.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
the first of four children for Christopher Lane and the former Caroline Burns s/b the first of four children of Christopher Lane and the former Caroline Burns, I believe.You should either say San Francisco Chronicle (henceforth Chronicle), San Francisco Chronicle (Chronicle) or write it out fully later. Just jumping in with the nickname is not appropriate.- I think you should do this upon first use in the LEAD rather than waiting until the body. Probably there henceforth is unnecessary.--TonyTheTiger (t/c
/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think the lede should be cluttered like that. Better to do it at the first use in the article body.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He attended Berkeley for two years and then you refer to it as his alma mater. Did he ever graduate?Avoid consecutive In YYYY constructions in "In late 1894, Lane moved back to California, and began to practice law in San Francisco. In 1897–98"in a year which otherwise saw s/b in a year that otherwise saw, I believe.The railroads, which were loosely... probably should be the The railroad companies, which were loosely or The railroad operations, which were loosely or some such. The railroads don't actually control anything."Roosevelt forgot his promise and instead named Senator Francis Cockrell of Missouri, who was retiring from the Senate after five terms." could be cleaner as "Roosevelt instead named retiring five-term Senator Francis Cockrell of Missouri."--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- I've made those changes. Nice catch; he did not in fact graduate, though it took a very careful reading of the bio information to find that one. Albright actually says that, but I had disregarded it, because he isn't really writing about Lane and he didn't like Lane. However, he's right. Looking forward to more, though I won't be on much until late tomorrow, probably.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:44, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
These two sentences don't go together: "Railroad companies were accused of failing to send cars with coal there because the cars could then be used to transport grain to Great Lakes ports. It was alleged the companies were waiting for the lakes to freeze over, necessitating longer rail journeys to market." It seems to me that the first sentence says the companies were sending the cars for use in grain transport and the second says they were delaying doing so. Also the first is not realy quality prose. After the because it is not gramatically clean, IMO. Try something like "Railroad companies were accused of failing to send cars with coal there in order that the cars could be available to transport grain to Great Lakes ports." Then, I don't know what to about the second sentence until you clarify it.Shortage and shortfall are not synonyms."In October, Lane determined that the Southern Pacific Railroad, one of Harriman's lines, was engaged in rebating, effectively giving special rates to favored shippers, a practice outlawed by the Hepburn Act." is another sloppy construction. I would try "In October, Lane determined that the Southern Pacific Railroad, one of Harriman's lines, was engaged in rebating, a practice of effectively giving special rates to favored shippers that is outlawed by the Hepburn Act."--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:59, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]- I'm sorry you switched to oppose and hope you will continue to work here to address your concerns. I don't consider "I don't like the prose" actionable, since I could bring in another editor and you could still not like the prose. The prose has been gone through during the article's two FACs. I'll try to address your specific points, I don't see what else I can do.
- I don't see how the railroad car thing is unclear. The practice was to send the cars in the late fall to North Dakota loaded with coal; when they were unloaded, the cars were filled with grain. Your sentence I think would be less clear. I have made a change to the section which I think spells it out more clearly. The others are fine, though I would say "was outlawed by the Hepburn Act" because I have no idea of the present status of the Hepburn Act. I look forward to addressing specific concerns.I hope that after your concerns are addressed, that you will not feel so painted in a corner by your previous comments that you will be able to support, or at least withdraw your oppose.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have tried to make some adjustments based on my understanding of the topic.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This issue seems stable and resolved.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:54, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have tried to make some adjustments based on my understanding of the topic.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We need to do something with this sentence:"According to House in his diaries, Lane, while reluctant to leave his position as chairman, was willing to serve in the Interior position, which he considered the most difficult Cabinet post, if offered or in any other capacity." How about "According to House's diaries, Lane, while reluctant to leave his position as chairman, was willing to serve in the Interior position if offered. He considered the position the most difficult Cabinet post but was also willing to serve in any other capacity."
- Done.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- shifted -> evolved.
make "Lane was considered by the President-elect and Colonel House" active voice.
- The previous two were taken care of by a rephrase of the sentence to active voice, using the word "adjusted". Wilson had problems putting together his cabinet, mostly his own fault in my view, a combination of indecision, overreliance on House, and kowtowing to bigwigs like William Jennings Bryan. It explains why he didn't write to Lane until eight days before the Inauguration, at which, by the way, Aretha Franklin had no role.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can we come up with something more encyclopedic than "The Department of the Interior in 1913 was a hodgepodge of different agencies."- Assortment?--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What do you think about adding "composed of" or "comprised of" to an assortment. Also consider other words such as variety, combination, cornucopia, mixture, blend, melding, etc.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "composed of an assortment" it is.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:16, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "composed of an assortment" it is.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- What do you think about adding "composed of" or "comprised of" to an assortment. Also consider other words such as variety, combination, cornucopia, mixture, blend, melding, etc.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Assortment?--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"other areas for which the Interior Department was responsible" -> "other areas under the Interior Department's jurisdiction."
- That's done.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
link Conference of Governors.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that article mentions a 1908 event. I've piped to Conference of Governors (1913). I don't know if it evolved into the present day governors' gathering or what.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know if it worth linking to a redlink. I think I had the Council of Governors mixed up with the National Governors Association.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:47, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Redlink encourages people to write articles. I don't mind either way.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:51, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't know if it worth linking to a redlink. I think I had the Council of Governors mixed up with the National Governors Association.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:47, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, that article mentions a 1908 event. I've piped to Conference of Governors (1913). I don't know if it evolved into the present day governors' gathering or what.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
prelude is better than run up.link convoy, Merchant ship, Secretary of Commerce--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Taken care of on all counts.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you disagree with linking convoy?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Whoops, sorry! I think I've taken care of your specific concerns.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:23, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Do you disagree with linking convoy?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 23:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Make sure all citations follow punctuation. At least #4 and 12 are following regular text. I did not check beyond 12. 8 is in the correct place, but the comma is missing.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Done that.--Wehwalt (talk) 04:58, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I realize that this article has been on a long time, but I would ask the FAC delegate to wait and see if Tony switches his vote. If he does, it will have three supports and no opposes. If not ... but give him that chance.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support with a few comments:-
- Would it possible, instead of always saying he was born in "what is now Canada", to include the information that he was born in what was then a British colony?
- I don't always say that, if you look at Early Life, we refer to Reverend Lane disliking the island colony's cold climate. I felt there was a fine line between being accurate and being pedantic when it came to PEI's status. However, I've thrown in a mention when we initially mention PEI.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there any information about when he became an American citizen?
- No, blast it all, and I really wanted that info because of the great pride he had in being an American. No article I've been able to find has mentioned that. I imagine that his parents were the ones who were naturalized at some point, and the kids became American thereby, but I can't confirm that. I also would have loved some info on how the Lanes got to California. I'd bet a Canadian dollar that it was via the transcontinental railroad, but I can't confirm that either.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead says he became an editor of a newspaper. Text suggests that he was the editor (papers generally only have one)
- Othere than wikinews, that's true. Changed.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Lead statement that Lane's record on conservation was mixed is your own summary and therefore POV
- Good point. I've kept the contrast but avoided the POV.
- Can "Committee of One Hundred" (in Early life section) be briefly explained?
- It was a group organized to rewrite the city charter. I've added a few words to make that a bit more clear. I haven't researched this extensively, but from what I understand, San Francisco City had expanded to be coterminous with San Francisco County, and they were reorganizing the government to eliminate duplicate services, and what is important to Lane is that there would no longer be seperate County and City Attorneys, but one man holding the combined position (one salary, I'd assume, not a Pooh-Bah situation). Wish today's politicians were as considerate.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In the Selection by Wilson section it might be as well to say that Lane said he was happy in his present post.
- OK. Not a problem.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise a clear account of an honourable career almost lost from sight. Question: did Lane always look about 20 years older than he was? See 1898 poster showing him at 34. Brianboulton (talk) 17:23, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- True. Walter Page mentions in Part I of his series of articles on Lane that Lane appeared middle aged from a young age, but then did not age other than losing what was left of his hair in his final years. Lane's life was honorable indeed. He was very well regarded. Contemporary accounts said that Lane and his contributions to the US would never be forgotten. Of course, today he virtually is, except for a cruddy inner-city high school (though certainly with a beautiful building), a mention by Nabakov, who was impressed by the letter Lane wrote after having that heart surgery (at which I shudder every time I think about it, imagine having heart surgery awake!), and because of Hetch Hetchy. He deserves better. Thanks for the support and the comments.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:59, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am happy with these responses. Brianboulton (talk) 20:25, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Great. By my count, there are three supports, no opposes, one neutral in which Tony indicates that if he had to fish or cut bait, he'd be minded to support, and a fair number of comments. It's passed its technical and image checks. It's now the second most senior article at FAC. Looks pretty good right now.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:46, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:45, 3 May 2009 [26].
- Nominator(s): Nev1 (talk) 20:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am nominating this for featured article because I think it now confroms to the FA criteria. It's well structured, factually correctly and – in my opinion – well written. Thanks to Jza84, Malleus Fatuorum, and Parrot of Doom who have all been great helping with copy editing (and Malleus since the start) and have improved the article beyond what I am capable of on my own, regardless of the outcome of this nomination. And thanks to anyone who takes time to review the article. Nev1 (talk) 20:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tech. Review
- Ref formatting checks out fine with WP:REFTOOLS.--Truco 20:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Fixed, no more dab or dead links. Nev1 (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- '
Quick observations' – You give the population breakdown by religion, but not by ethnic group – if the data exists, that would probably be quite useful (something along the lines of the Demography section in Trafford). Also, "The only mosque in Trafford is the Masjid-E-Noor in Old Trafford" seems a bit out-on-its-own for someone like me who has only the haziest knowledge of where Sale is; is this a long way off? (Note: I started to read this before I realised how long it was – I'll read it properly tomorrow.)– iridescent 22:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The table in the demography section breaks down the population into white, Asian, and black exactly like in the Trafford article, although the table contains some other information too. I've added a note that the mosque in Old Trafford is about 3 miles away. Nev1 (talk) 23:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments -
You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates.- What makes the following reliable sources?
http://www.chester.anglican.org/diocese/links/index.htm deadlinks
- Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:58, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Green Flag award is run by the Civic Trust, an "urban environment charity". As the website is run by the same people who run the award, it should be a reliable source. Nuff-respect is a sports management agency established by Lindofd Christie; as it's the companies job to represent its clients (Darren Campbell is one of them) it should be reliable for details such as the club he represented and his gold medal. As for somethingjewish.co.uk, "... how about (http://www.journalism.co.uk/2/articles/530501.php) this independent source stating the site allows "allows Jewish organisations and community groups to distribute press releases free online"; while it doesn't say it's "leading", hopefully the fact the information comes from Jewish organisations themselves should mean it's accurate (at least for the purposes of saying under whose aegis a synagogue is under)." The dead link is now fixed (I replaced the wrong url last time). Nev1 (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll leave the sourcing concerns out for other reviewers to decide for themselves, still waiting on the citation template conflict. Ealdgyth - Talk 01:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Green Flag award is run by the Civic Trust, an "urban environment charity". As the website is run by the same people who run the award, it should be a reliable source. Nuff-respect is a sports management agency established by Lindofd Christie; as it's the companies job to represent its clients (Darren Campbell is one of them) it should be reliable for details such as the club he represented and his gold medal. As for somethingjewish.co.uk, "... how about (http://www.journalism.co.uk/2/articles/530501.php) this independent source stating the site allows "allows Jewish organisations and community groups to distribute press releases free online"; while it doesn't say it's "leading", hopefully the fact the information comes from Jewish organisations themselves should mean it's accurate (at least for the purposes of saying under whose aegis a synagogue is under)." The dead link is now fixed (I replaced the wrong url last time). Nev1 (talk) 13:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I went through and copyedited this to the best of my ability. Some comments:
- They should all be cite xxx now, there were a couple of citation templates that had been copied from elsewhere, but it didn't take long to fix. Nev1 (talk) 02:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
From the lead:
"Its fertile fields and meadows were used for arable and cattle farming." This sentence doesn't seem to flow correctly with the sentences surrounding it (i.e. it's too short). I tried fixing it myself but it made it worse...
- I think this edit makes things better. It introduces a link with the previous sentence, and the following sentence is already linked to the one about farming as it is on the subject of the economy. Nev1 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
History:
You've started to put hyphens in the century years, e.g. 4th-century. Why? This is not consistent with the lead in any case.
- From MOS:NUM#Numbers as figures or words: "Centuries are named in figures: (the 5th century CE; 19th-century painting); when the adjective is hyphenated, consider nineteenth-century painting, but not when contrasted with painting in the 20th century." So "4th-century hoard" needs to be hyphenated, but "a hoard from the 4th century" does not. Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Another weird use of a hyphen - "early-5th century" and there are more examples
- See above. Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the explanation - you'll have to forgive my poor knowledge of the MOS :) Majorly talk 15:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"Etymological evidence in the form of field and road names, and the name of Sale itself, are Anglo-Saxon in origin and indicates the town was founded in the 7th or 8th centuries." This sentence isn't clear: is it the evidence that's Anglo-Saxon or the names themselves? If it's the evidence, then it should be "is Anglo-Saxon in origin". I'm really not sure because there's a mix of things there. The sentence needs work to clarify this.
- True, it was trying to do too much. It now reads "Some local field and road names, and the name of Sale itself, are Anglo-Saxon in origin which indicates the town was founded in the 7th or 8th centuries", which I think is much clearer. Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The first recorded occurrences of Sale and Ashton upon Mersey are in 1199–1216 and 1260 respectively." Is that an estimated set of years, or the period in which the first recorded occurrences were from? Also, how many occurrences were there?
- It's the period the documents date from, I'm note sure why the author of the source used gave a range for one and a single year for the other (presumably because the document could not be very accurately dated). Could you explain why the number of occurrences is important, because I don't see how it is (also, I don't think that information is available). Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK, if that's the best you can get, I'm happy. Majorly talk 15:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"In 1745, Crossford Bridge – which dated back to at least 1367[13] – was torn down." The ref should follow some punctuation, and shouldn't a dash of some sort be used there?
- The reference has been moved. ndashes, as used in the article, are acceptable within MOS:DASH. Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"...and led to the middle classes using Sale as a commuter town – a residence away from their place of work." Can that be reworded to avoid the dash?
- Replaced with a comma. Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"The land in Sale Moor was the cheapest in the town because the soil was poor and difficult to cultivate (part of the reason the area was common land until the early 19th century)" Any way the brackets could be avoided?
*Why is Villas in quotes?
- Because it's not villa in what (I'm assuming) everyone thinks of when they hear the word. It's perhaps unnecessary. The villas in question, while called villas by several sources, are less grand than I imagined the word villa meant (possibly what wikipedia thinks it means too juding by [[villa|its article on the subject). Nev1 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- On reflection, I've removed the scare quotes. After all, the villa article does say "In the nineteenth century, villa was extended to describe any large suburban house that was free-standing in a landscaped plot of ground". Nev1 (talk) 01:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"...amenities such as sewers, which were built in 1875–80" Again, is that a duration, or an approximate period? If it's a duration, should it not be "built from 1875-80"?
- It's the duration, and you might have a point about in/from so I've changed it. Nev1 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"The end of the war in 1918 resulted in a rush of marriages, which highlighted a shortage of housing" I don't see how it would highlight anything - also needs a source.
- Marriages leads to more kids, leads to less space in the house. The reference was at the end of the paragraph and has been doubled up. Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*"Six hundred incendiary bombs were dropped..." Any reason that's written with words instead of digits?
- Because it's at the start of the sentence. MOS:NUM#Numbers as figures or words states "Numbers that begin a sentence are spelled out, since using figures risks the period being read as a decimal point or abbreviation mark". Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- OK - forgive my lack of knowledge on this :) Majorly talk 15:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Governance:
- "The petition was successful, and on 21 September 1935 Sale UD was granted borough status, and becoming the Municipal Borough of Sale." Doesn't make sense.
- Removed the stray "and", should be fine now. Nev1 (talk) 01:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Not too sure. Shouldn't "becoming" be "became"? Majorly talk 15:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- True, it's a slight change of tenses. It has now been changed to "and became". Nev1 (talk) 15:32, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You'd mis-typed 'became' as 'become', but I hadn't noticed this before I changed the sentence to read 'The petition was successful and on 21 September 1935 Sale UD was granted borough status, becoming the Municipal Borough of Sale' Hopefully this reads as well? Parrot of Doom (talk) 15:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Economy:
*I can't tell what this means: "Industry was slow to develop in the area, as in most of what would become Trafford, partly because of the reluctance of the two main land owners in the area, the Stamfords and the de Traffords, to invest."
- Talking about Trafford before 1974 is tricky because it didn't exist, hence the necessarily tricky phrase "what would become Trafford". It might seem odd to compare Sale with towns in the modern borough as opposed to its immediate neighbours, however most of its immediate neighbours are actually in the borough (on the east of the town borders somewhere that isn't Trafford) and "what would become Trafford" was owned by two main people (the Stamford and de Traffords) hence the comparison is valid. To make the sentence simpler I have split it in two, it now reads "Industry was slow to develop in the area, as in most of what would become Trafford This was partly because of the reluctance of the two main land owners in the area, the Stamfords and the de Traffords, to invest." Nev1 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sounds good. Majorly talk 15:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Education:
*"Sale's first school was built in 1667, but it fell out use in the first half of the 18th century" Seems a bit vague, and no source.
- Records from the period are sporadic, so not much more detail can be added. Records are so poor, the exact location of the school isn't even known. The sentence has been rephrased to "Sale's first school was built in 1667 and was used until the first half of the 18th century". Nev1 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- That sounds better. Majorly talk 15:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*The last sentence of the first paragraph is a bit too general imo.
- Agreed, it has been removed. Nev1 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Transport:
"However the arrival in 1849 of the Manchester, South Junction and Altrincham Railway[24] sounded a death-knell for both the canal packet services and turnpike trusts, with many trusts going into terminal decline, mirroring a national trend." This sentence doesn't flow very well imo.
- Split into two sentences. Nev1 (talk) 01:41, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Majorly talk 00:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for fixing. There's still one point in the Governance section I'm not happy with though. Majorly talk 15:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support Assuming no big problems emerge, I'm happy with this. A lovely article, a great job from all involved. Majorly talk 15:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support My one (very) minor quibble has been resolved. Says as much about the subject as anyone would reasonably want to know, without saying too much. – iridescent 17:01, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Image review as follows:
- File:Sale coat of arms.JPG: UK allows freedom of panorama, but the primary focus of this photo is the coat of arms, which has some pretty confusing rulings on Commons (ref: Commons:Commons:Coat of Arms, Commons:Template:Coat of Arms, etc). I think I have sorted its licensing correctly, but would appreciate more well-versed coat-of-arms and copyright reviewers to check on it.
Otherwise, all other images are verifiably in the public domain or appropriately licensed. Jappalang (talk) 03:21, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Support
Commentsok, let's see nowover the line prosewise and comprehensivenesswise.....Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:50, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In this period, its fertile fields and meadows were used for arable and cattle farming. -I thought the adjective arable was a descriptor for the land (i.e. ability to be farmed/ploughed/sown with crops) rather than the process of farming (??) - what about just crops and livestock? or crops and cattle? or somesuch?
- "Arable" is a type of farming, not a description of the land, so "used for arable and cattle farming" is perfectly OK. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I have NFI so I will take yer word for it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "Arable" is a type of farming, not a description of the land, so "used for arable and cattle farming" is perfectly OK. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, it seems we're both right on looking more closely. It may be though that "arable farming" is a phrase more common in British English.[27] --Malleus Fatuorum 12:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A 4th-century hoard of 46 Roman coins was discovered in Ashton upon Mersey (a settlement now part of Sale)- not sure if parenthetical bit is redundant.
- True, Ashton upon Mersey being a part of Sale isn't directly linked to the Roman hoard, but I think it needs to be explained why Ashton upon Mersey is being talked about in an article about Sale. As this is done in the lead perhaps it doesn't need to be so early in the history section, so I've removed the parenthesis. Nev1 (talk) 10:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After the Roman departure from Britain in the early-5th century, Britain was invaded by the Anglo-Saxons.- needs a citehahahahaha, just having a lǎff :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Sale Old Hall was built c. 1603 for James Massey.. - any reason why we have the 'c' here and not the more prosey "around"?
- No reason at all, so I've changed it to "in about". --Malleus Fatuorum 12:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.